spices-msg - 1/20/08
Information on medieval spices. Period documentation. Sources.
NOTE: See also the files: herbs-msg, herbs-cooking-msg, p-herbals-msg, seeds-msg, p-spice-trade-msg, saffron-msg, garlic-msg, merch-spices-msg, gums-resins-msg, spice-mixes-msg, galangale-msg, ginger-msg, G-of-Paradse-msg, nutmeg-mace-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: spices etc.
Date: 28 Nov 1994 15:01:52 -0500
>Indian (like from India) spices were, I understand, sold by placing
>the spice on one side of a scale and gold on the other. When the
>weight balanced you had payed for the spice -- it's weight in gold.
Depends on the period and the spice. Saffron is far more expensive
than pepper. Sugar is not cheap either.
For lots of other _neat_ info regarding the cost of spices etc. in
late period Italy, see Frank Swetz, _Capitalism and Arithmetic_, which
also includes a facsimile copy of _The Treviso Arithmetic_, the first
mathematics textbook ever printed, even if it does use the pernicious
Arabic numerals.
Tio dell'abaco
From: rousseaua at immunex.wa.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cubeb
Date: 22 Aug 95 14:44:40 PST
Organization: Immunex Corporation, Seattle, WA
Hey all from Anne-Marie in An Tir
Grains of Paradise and Galangale are both readily available here in Seattle.
My favorite herbal apothecary has whole galangale, which resembles a ginger
root you've let sit in the produce drawer of your fridge for about a century.
I've also found the powdered stuff (aka galinga) wherever they sell stuff for
Thai cooking. One thing, I've noticed that the already powdered stuff seems
pretty wimpy, but I can't imagine getting any usable spice out of the petrified
whole stuff. Any suggestions?
--AM, who thinks one of the best things about living here is being able to get
bottles of rosewater in half liter sizes for really really cheap, and just
across the street from work! Hee.
From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.crafts.brewing,rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Need help identifying spice
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 18:35:33 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
rcpj at panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote:
> Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at cornell.edu> writes:
> > However, I am at a bit of a loss to divine the identities of two spices
> > (not being a proper cook). What are "auence" and "spikenard"?
>
> Avens: a plant of the genus Geum (rose family).
>
> Spikenard: Nardostachys jatamansi (a type of valerian).
Okay, so what are these plants marketed under and/or what are their modern
common names?
From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.crafts.brewing,rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Need help identifying spice
Date: 14 Mar 1996 19:50:30 -0500
Organization: Panix
Pierre Jelenc <rcpj at panix.com> wrote:
>Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at cornell.edu> writes:
>>
>> Okay, so what are these plants marketed under and/or what are their modern
>> common names?
>
>That's what they're called: avens and spikenard.
>
>They are not used in cooking anywhere that I know of; your only chance is
>with a plant nursery, I suppose.
I bought my spikenard from the Indiana Botanical Gardens in Hobart, IN;
my catalogue got lost in the move east, but I would think that Directory
Assistance could help you.
If you like giving your custom to SCA merchants, try the Pepperers' Guild.
Have fun.
D.Peters
From: mjbr at tdk.dk (Michael Bradford)
From: jeffebear1 at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval spice names wanted
Date: 26 Dec 1996 04:00:46 GMT
Grains of paridise, 4 pepper blend, cardamon etc. are availible mailorder
or walk in from DragonMarsh 3737 6th St Riverside, Ca 92501 (909)
276-1116.
They carry over 4000 herbs and spices plus a whole lot more. You can order
a herb & oil list or just request your list. Most items are around $1.00
an oz.
They carry such items as saffron and galangal root at affordable prices.
Great for the SCA recreation cook.
Lady Morigianna
From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 13:13:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Medieval spices
Sean Ellwood wrote:
> Any suggestions on how to look check and see if certain spices were
> available in Medeival China or Europe.
>
> Sven Carlson
Sure!
One place to look for such information is in books like "Food in
History" by Reay Tannahill. Another is Harold McGee's "On Food and
Cooking".
Finding such accounts for China could be hard, since there's not too
much for those who can't read accounts in Chinese. Except of course for
accounts by people like Marco Polo, who is, at best, not always
trustworthy, and William of Rubrick (I think that's his name) who is far
more so.
Europe is pretty easy. The extant recipes indicate quite clearly what
spices would have been available in the place and time the recipes were
written. They call for them, don't they? : )
Regards,
Adamantius
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:04:04 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc.
Hi, Katerine again. Philippa asks:
>Just to play devil's advocate.... I quite understand growing up using what
>to some would be "heavy handed" spicing, but for what reason did this heavy
>use of spice start? It is now tradition, but what were the origins? And
>even if it weren't to cover the taste of meat going slightly "off", could it
>have been because the wild vegetables and gamier meat had stronger basic
>flavors which are balanced better by stronger spicing?
>Just a thought.
First, where spicing is heavy, the reason is often that people like the
taste. That simple. For virtually every major item that occurs in
medieval dishes that call for spice, we also have surviving recipes that
call for few spices or none. Chicken, in particular, runs the gamut
from unspiced dishes to dishes that call for (some unknown quantity
of) half the spices on the rack. That suggests that the intent is not
to cover, but to vary the cuisine.
But more crucially: what makes you think that medieval dishes were heavily
spiced?
Every study I've seen that purports to support that conclusion does so
by looking at household accounts, and distributing total spice purchases
over kitchen purchases. But that's nonsense, for four separate reasons.
First, spices were also used in the bakery and brewery. Second, spices
(especially salt and pepper) were used in preserving -- and soaked out
before eating. Third, whole spices were sometimes burned on the fire for
scent. Fourth, food that comes in as local produce or as rents will not
appear in the purchases, but constitutes a large part of what was eaten
in non-urban upper class settings.
Every study that actually looks at the spices used for a particualr meal
and the food in it reaches the opposite conclusion: that medieval spicing
was not particualrly heavy handed.
Since recipes by-and-large do not include quantities, you cannot tell
from the recipes themselves.
So: what makes you think that the phenomenon you are trying to explain
ever existed?
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:52:23 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc.
Hi, Katerine here. Allison responds to Phillipa:
>As for the current heavy use of pepper in foods, I think that followed
>the popularity of Mexican--or American-version Mexican--foods. Tests
>have been done by restaurant chains and food companies, and they have
>found that more people ate more food if it were heavily spiced.
Pepper was the cheapest medieval spice, and the one most heavily documented
as used widely not only in upper class cookery but in every class right
down to peasants. The current use is a revival (not particularly of
medieval practices; relative to a significant drop here in the middle of
this century). Medievals used a number of pepper-like spices, including
cubeb and grains of paradise (I'm not speaking botannically, but in
terms of general flavor class), both of which I've fed to people with
no interest whatsoever in historical cuisine, to rave reviews. The
bottom line, I think, is that people everywhere use spices because they
*taste good*. That so many spices show up across so wide a swath of
culinary traditions suggests that this is simply a human tendency. How
much spices we eat results, among other things, from the food we're
used to. Whether people in general like the flavor of any spices at all
seems more strongly related to the interaction between human taste and
smell and the spices themselves.
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: Charles Dean <charles at macquarie.matra.com.au>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:30:20 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc.
Hi all,
This posting prompted me to expound a pet theory of mine.
> But more crucially: what makes you think that medieval dishes were heavily
> spiced?
>
> Every study I've seen that purports to support that conclusion does so
> by looking at household accounts, and distributing total spice purchases
> over kitchen purchases. But that's nonsense, for four separate reasons.
> First, spices were also used in the bakery and brewery. Second, spices
> (especially salt and pepper) were used in preserving -- and soaked out
> before eating. Third, whole spices were sometimes burned on the fire for
> scent. Fourth, food that comes in as local produce or as rents will not
> appear in the purchases, but constitutes a large part of what was eaten
> in non-urban upper class settings.
>
> Every study that actually looks at the spices used for a particualr meal
> and the food in it reaches the opposite conclusion: that medieval spicing
> was not particualrly heavy handed.
Warning Charles' pet theory on spices follows:
I believe that medieval cooks did use more, in quantity, of spices in
dishes than we do today. There is good evidence that their spice
consumption was higher that is now current by volume. We do have some
recipes that give spice quantities that seem excessive to our modern
tastes. I also believe that our cooking ancestors had a very similar
palette to our modern one, in what was an acceptable amount of spicing.
Two factors are also not taken into account when looking at medieval
spicing. Firstly most of the spices we taste today have had 400+ years
of plant breeding to make them taste stronger. You can see shifts in
amounts of spices called for in recipes between Mrs Beaton's cooking
book and modern versions, a much smaller period than 1200 to today.
Secondly medieval spices were (often) transported over large distances,
often for more than a year. In most cases they were kept in non-air
tight containers. Most spices loose flavour when exposed to air.
Spices were often stored longer then as is done currently as supply
was more infrequent or spasmodic. Given the above reasons it is
reasonable to assume that the spices available to the medieval cook
had considerably less flavour than the modern versions that we are
using for comparison.
If you accept my premsies above then end the result is that our
medeival cook could produce a result in flavour intensity that was little
different to the effects we create today in modern cooking but using
more in quanity of spice to achieve it. I am assuming that is is far more
likely that spice flavour intensity varied rather than some sort
of genetic shift changed our modern palatte from our medieval ancestors.
Charles
- ---------------------------------------------------------
Charles Dean charles at macquarie.matra.com.au
Matra Internetworks - Internet service providers.
Ph (06) 251 6730 Fax (06) 253 4840
PO BOX 714, Jamison Centre, ACT 2614 AUSTRALIA
From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com>
Date: 16 Apr 1997 10:46:58 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - spicing
> Clare said:
> As to the strength of a spice,-- barks, seeds and roots keep their
> scent and taste far longer that flowers and leaves. Herbs need to be used
> up much more quickly than spices. I have cloves that I use for various
> things that are at least 5 years old. The volatile oils in spices are a
> bit more long lasting that volitiles oils from leaves and flowers. (That's
> why old potpourri smells different ) There are exceptions of course.
I agree with this point. In addition, storing bark/seeds/roots, unground, in
waxed paper helps retain the volatile oils without increasing the amount of
moisture. Keep these dry and they will retain their strength for a long time;
get them wet and "use them or lose them."
We have better drying techniques on a mass scale now than was possible in
period. Therefore, I think our leafy/flowery spices last longer. We also
have better storage containers now than then, with the advent of plastic.
However, I do not think that it is out of line to assume that many (but by no
means all) of the leafy/flowery spices used in period in upper class houses
were grown in the manor gardens and used fresh. They would dry them for use
during the winter. If indeed this were the case, then how does that change
our conversions of period recipes? The standard conversion is 1 teaspoon of
dried herb for 3 of fresh.
Derdriu
swensel at brandegee.lm.com
From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:07:03 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Long pepper
LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> What, exactly, is long pepper? I am allergic to all peppers so haven't
> investigated this, but I ought to know about it as it appears in so many
> recipes, and I could have a fellow cook add it after I'd sampled the
> pepperless version.
>
> Allison
Long pepper is piper longum, as opposed to piper negrum, or black
pepper. It is a close realtive of black pepper, but the little berries
grow in a cluster similar to a tiny oblong bunch of grapes or an ear of
grain. Flavor is apparently similar but not identical to black pepper.
I have not used it myself, and have not run across any in 15 years or so
of looking, on and off. Some claim it is extinct, while others claim to
know where it can be obtained by mail order. All I know is that I've
never seen any long pepper, and don't think I've net anyone else who has
seen it themselves. Plenty of "friend of a friend" stuff, though, so I
suppose it could be a sort of urban legend.
My apologies to anyone who may have seen or used the stuff: I am not
accusing anyone of deceit, just saying I've never seen it.
Adamantius
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:18:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Paprika
<< Since we have been discussing the sources for a variety of foods I was
curious if anyone could add to my knowledge about paprika. According to my
sources, the Turks introduced paprika to Hungary during their occupation.
The Turkish occupation occured after the Battle of Mohacs in 1526. >>
Possibly. Hot pepper seeds were brought back on all three of the first
Columbus voyages. By 1528, they were a MAJOR agricultural crop in the
Mediterranean Basin. I tend to personally avoid at all costs the use of new
world foods in a feast because to many people it allows too much of an
intrusion of the Current Middle Ages into the dream they are trying to
achieve at an event.
Bearing that in mind when I do European and Middle Eastern cuisine I never go
out of my way to use any recipes that contain new world foods. And do not
have any redacted in my collection. I also never decide what I would like to
cook and then go searching for "period" recipes to justify it's use. All of
the above I do do with thoughts of my guests and their ultimate enjoyment of
unquestionably period food.
Lord Ras
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:51:52 -0400
Subject: SC - Re: Long Pepper (again!)
ALERT! ALERT! DANGER, WILL SCATLOCH!
I've just made a rather silly error, and thought I'd point it out before
anyone attempts to act upon this whole issue...
The most competent herbal encyclopedia I know shows quite clear
illustrations of both piper negrum and piper longum. The Negrum variety,
or black pepper, also grows in a long, fairly tight cluster, which looks
rather like an elongated blackberry. I suspect the individual berries
are separated to facilitate even fermentation (whence comes the
blackness) and drying.
Piper longum is apparently much smaller than black pepper (1 inch or so
vs. 3 or 4 inches long) and is more tightly packed in the cluster. So,
the cross-hatching effect drawn by some artists may have some basis in
reality; it looks almost like the bud from which a pine-cone grows.
I therefore suspect it's possible Ysabeau has seen green peppercorns.
Also, in case it helps, I have here some alternate names for the beastie
in question:
Pharmaceutical name: Fructus Piperis Longi
Botanical name: Piper Longum
Mandarin: BÏ B· (That's Bi Ba, with both vowels accented facing
each other, like angry cartoon eyebrows, for those of you with straight ASCII text readers)
Japanese: Hihatsu
Korean: P'ilhal
English: Long Pepper Fruit
I also have a pair of Chinese ideograms, which might be useful for the
non-Mandarin-speaking Chinese, but I can't duplicate them here on short
notice.