herbs-cooking-msg – 5/4/08
Period herbs used in cooking.
NOTE: See also the files: herbs-msg, spices-msg, p-herbals-msg, herb-uses-msg, garlic-msg, capers-msg, lavender-msg, mandrake-art, rue-msg, seeds-msg, mint-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period plants
Date: 11 Jan 1995 05:18:35 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs
Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
Meli ferch Iasper responds to someone else (I believe it was Alix de Mont
Fer; the email address references Emily Epstein), who questioned the
claim that parsley was a relative latecomer to England.
>> This seems odd to me. There are English recipes that call for parsley
>> from considerably earlier than that. A quick peek in my files comes
>> up with Mounchelet (lamb stew) from one of the books in Hieatt's _Curye_
>> on_Inglysch_ (15th century), and Ravieles (ravioli) from her
>> "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections" (13th century, I think. I'll
>> have to look it up.)
{snip}
> Could you please tell me where editions of these books can be gotten?
>Are there ones currently in print, or perhaps there are isbn numbers for the
>editions, since I can trot to the online catalog for the Library of Congress?
Constance B. Hieatt and Sharon Butler, _Curye on Inglysch_, Oxford
University Press (London, New York, Toronto), 1985, ISBN0-19-722409.
In print.
The Anglo-Norman collections are published in an article coauthored with
(I believe) Robin Jones, which appeared in _Speculum_ in 1986. Any decent
university library should carry _Speculum_; it is a major research
journal among scholarly historians. (My actual copy of the article, and
a fair amount of my other resources, are at home.) One of the Anglo-
Norman collections is indeed late 13th C; the other is early 14th C,
and is duplicated by one of the MSs in _CoI_ (that is, an early 14th
C translation from Anglo-Norman into (Middle) English exists, and is
included in _CoI_).
I fully agree with the observation that parsley is surely older than
the quote disputed here suggested. My notes on ingredient frequency
show that it occurs in 30 out of 447 recipes from England prior to
the 15th C, and indeed is the most common herb in them (next is sage,
at 22 recipes). It seems clear, from many, that fresh parsley is
intended.
Cheers,
-- Angharad/Terry
From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period plants
Date: 11 Jan 1995 05:27:15 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs
Angharad ver' Rhuawn, again. I just wrote:
>I fully agree with the observation that parsley is surely older than
>the quote disputed here suggested. My notes on ingredient frequency
Bad fingers; don't leave words out! Also, don't overstate the case.
The claim does not have to do with how old parsley is as a plant,
but with how far back it was grown in England (as opposed to on the
continent. My position, in agreement with the previous poster, is
that it is highly unlikely that parsely was not grown in England
at least as early as the 13th C. (It's still possible; but I think
it very unlikely, given the evidence from the cookery literature.)
The rest is short, so I'll let it stick around.
>show that it occurs in 30 out of 447 recipes from England prior to
>the 15th C, and indeed is the most common herb in them (next is sage,
>at 22 recipes). It seems clear, from many, that fresh parsley is
>intended.
Cheers,
-- Angharad/Terry
From: "Mark A. Sharpe" <yb867 at freenet.victoria.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Mastic Thyme
On Thu, 8 May 1997, LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> If you get this twice you are on both my cookery lists, sorry, but I need
> a fast answer. Taillevent refers to 'mastic thyme' in his Cameline
> Bruet. None of my herb books give the word 'mastic' although they do
> claim there are 200-400 varieties of thyme. Does anyone know if 'mastic
> thyme' is simply a variety or if it refers to something else?
>
> Allison
Acording to The Herb Society of America Encyclopedia of Herbs mastic thyme
(thymus mastichina) is also known as Spanish wood marjoram. It is found
in Spain and Portugal on rocky ground and beside roads. It has a strong
camphoraceous aroma. The leaves can be added to strong flavored meat dishes
and its oil, known as oil of wild marjoram, is used in the food industry
to flavor meat sauces and soups.
The Herb Society also has a web pageat http://www.herbsociety.com.
Terrendon the Wanderer
From: KandL Johnston <woodrose at malvern.starway.net.au>
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 19:44:55 +1000
Subject: Re: SC - semolina and mixed herbs
ND Wederstrandt wrote:
>
> Also, I was reading a few redactions and originals this past
> weekend and noticed that many times when the period recipe calls for herbs
> people generally use spinach. Is there a reason? Is it because we are a
> nation of non-green eaters (hoping I'm not offending anyone here) Is it
> that spinach is milder than most greens or is more readily available . Has
> anyone tried say " A Tarte of Herbes " and not used spinach. The book I
> was using is To the King's Taste and/or To the Queen's Taste but many other
> books usually have some reference to herbes.
>
> Clare St. John
Yes and while it sounds very off, the herbs as long as they are fresh
make a very delightful, watercress, leeks, spring onions, fennel,
parsley (lots), rosemary, mint, sage, thyme, plus whatever else is in
season.
- -- Nicolotte --
- ---------------------------------------
Rudolf von der Drau and Nicolette Dufay
Baron and Baroness, Stormhold
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:21:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Subject: Re: SC - Crustade Lombard - a redaction
>(There was a discussion on one of the newsgroups about using nettle tops in
>this way. I missed the end of the discussion - did anyone read it?)
>If, indeed, cheese was intended in Crustade Lombard, and parsley was the
>intended curdling agent, I find it more likely that the remains of the
>previous day's cheesemaking (left in the bowl through improper washing)
>would be responsible for curdling the mixture.
Nettle has been used as a curdling agent in cheeses as well as some species
of Gallium(?) of which some grow wild in the US. Cleavers is a member and
grow in early spring down in our part of Ansteorra. Ladies bedstraw (also
a Gallium) , nettles, sage and a few other plants have been used to curdle
cheese. I've seen cheese renneted with nettle on the market and next time
I see it I will get more info. Parsley is not one of the rennet herbs as
far as I can tell but I have no books with me and will look it up tonight.
The latin name is close if not the name, I'm sure some one will correct it
if I am wrong.
You can buy dried cleavers at some herb stores/ health stores....It's used
for dandruff and as a fasting herb.
Clare St. John
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:30:32 +0000
From: "Nick Sasso(fra niccolo)" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Licorice sticks
> > And what do you mean by licorice sticks? When I think of licorice sticks
> > I think of the long red or black "noodles". But I thought those were a
> > candy. Perhaps these are like modern marshmallows are to the real thing?
> >
> > Stefan li Rous
> Stefan, let me know any event you will be at and I will bring you a true
> licorice "stick". It really is a stick and doesn't taste all that much like
> licorice. I bought some sticks of it at Pennsic.
>
> Gunthar
Gunthar and Stefan,
you can find it at homebrew supply stores as 'brewer's licorice'. A
bit more expensive than if you get it at an herb store.
fra niccolo
(a brewer at heart.....and mug)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:05:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: Re- SC - Spices
<<And what do you mean by licorice sticks?>>
Licorice sticks are another term for the dried root of the licorice plant.
These were used as a sort of candy during the middle ages. The idea being to
suck on a piece of the root.
If a recipe calls for licorice, use licorice. Many people say aniseed, star
anise, fennel and licorice taste the same. If you were to taste each of these
side by side you would immediately see the differences between each one.
Yours in Service to the Dream,
Lord Ras (Who loves fennel and aniseed but only eats licorice if it's served
to him)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:38:38 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A quick question. . .
Varju at aol.com wrote:
> Are bay leaves period? I have a vague memory that they aren't. . .
>
> Noemi
They very occasionally appear in medieval English and French recipes,
and appear somewhat more often in Roman recipes.
You also find them in later period recipes...
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:43:39 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - bay leaves
>Were what we now call bay leaves used as a food flavoring by the
>European cultures before 1600 AD?
>
> Stefan li Rous
I believe you will find bay laurel to be of southern European origin and
used in Greek and Roman cooking in Antiquity. Giacosa's A Taste of
Ancient Rome has at least one recipe calling for bay berries (if I read
the Latin correctly).
Schivelbusch in Tatses of Paradise quotes a late-medieval account book
on a banquet for forty, "one pound of columbine powder. . .half a pound
of ground cinnamon. . .two pounds of sugar. . .one ounce of saffron. .
.a quarter pound of cloves and grains of guinea pepper(grains of
paradise). . .an eighth of a pound of pepper. . .an eighth of a pound of
galingale. . .an eighth of a pound of nutmeg. . .an eight of a pound of
bay leaves." Unfortunately the source is not specifically stated. The
American version of this book is fun, but not much value as a historical
reference (it doesn't even have an index). Since Schivelbusch is a
historian, it may be a case of diluting the German original for the
American market.
I've seen some other references to bay in period, but I would have to go
dredging to find them, as I did not make note of them.
Bear
Date: 14 Oct 1997 10:08:29 -0500
From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #358
><< Many of the herbs used in period really aren't safe for ingestion. >>
>Say what?
>Ras
That's what I get for throwing off a note from work. Some of the herbs used
in period are of dubious safety for ingestion; comfrey, tansy, rue, and
pennyroyal (and I have recipes using these) come to mind. Other herbs can
cause contact dermatitis, photosensitivity, etc. and it is wise to know this
before you begin experimentation.
So using a modern herbal to verify the use of period herbs is a sensible
precaution.
Derdriu
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:46:53 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: eggs
Christi Redeker wrote:
> This is the first time I have seen cilantro mentioned on the list. Was this a
> period spice used commonly?
The simple answer is yes. The more complex answer is that it depends on
where you lived in period. The plant from which cilantro grows was
pretty much spread across much of the Eurasian land mass. Cilantro
generally refers specifically to the green leaves, stems, and roots of
the plant, while the seeds are generally referred to as coriander.
In general, the Northern portions of the Eurasian landmass are where the
coriander seeds would be used in cooking, whereas the southern parts is
where you would find cilantro being eaten, particularly in places like
the Middle East and India.
Now, it's also very common in the cuisines of South America.
Adamantius
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:04:27 -0500
From: John and Barbara Enloe <jbenloe at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Tansy:To poison or not to poison
Not only is tansy poisonous, it is a very powerful abortive in the smallest
doses -- ladies have been known to abort from the amounts absorbed through
the skin by touching the leaves.
Jon
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:44:18 -0500
From: John and Barbara Enloe <jbenloe at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Tansy:To poison or not to poison
Re: the below:
Per The Herb Society of America Encyclopedia of Herbs & Their Uses by Deni
Bown
Pages 359-360; There are various types of tansy out there and they are
referred to as "extremely pungent, potent herbs and should be used with
caution. Benefits are listed in the book; some of the cautions refer to it
as NOT being given to pregnant women,... dermatitis and mouth ulcers in
some cases,... possibly unsafe for internal use, especially in pregnancy,
...the oil is highly toxic for both internal and external use, and very
small amounts may prove fatal,...excess (among other things) can cause
venous congestion of abdominal organs, and convulsions. It is rarely used
internally."
In light of this information, it may be very much worth your while to
discuss any use of this herb with an experienced herbalist. They may be
able to give you types and amounts that are not harmful...without that, I
would hesitate to use this herb. Just as a note, I keep my supply
grown/dried/stored away from all the rest of the herbs I grow to limit
access to it.
Ania
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:17:43 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Tansy:To poison or not to poison
Michael P Newton wrote:
> I have a quandary which has come up again: is tansy poisonous, and if so,
> why do I keep running into recipes in period or near period, which call
> for tansy as the main flavorings?
Lawyers, my dear lady. Lawyers. That is why. Seriously, though, I
suspect the simplest answer is that tansy contains some toxic element or
ingredient which you are unlikely to absorb unless you really immerse
yourself in the stuff. In other words, casual and occasional consumption
of tansy probably wouldn't do you any harm, but that doesn't mean it is
impossible for it to do you harm. It's just that I don't know what
constitutes a harmful dosage.
> It is especially madding considering that I have planted three tansy
> plants outside my kitchen window to repel the ants {which worked for a
> while}. When I bought them, they came with a warning that they were
> poisonous, then I found some recipes in my herbal books, but our local
> herbalist thought they were similar to wormwood, in that flavoring
> wouldn't kill you but it was to picky to mess around with.Now I find two
> more recipes in the _A concise encyclopedia of Gastronomy_, one of which
> says that a "Tansy" in England was the name of a custard flavored with
> tansy or other bitterish leaves. The other recipe is for a pudding.
> Has anyone else come across these or similar recipes,preferably in
> period sources? Is it really poisonous or only in large quantities? Does
> anyone have any other uses for tansy?
I have seen the reference you mention. There are several recipes from
period sources that indicate that a tansy (apparently contracted from
the Greek term, "athanasia", which more or less means "banishing death",
or some such) is more of an omelette than a custard. The herb tansy does
sometimes appear as an ingredient in a tansy, if you get my meaning, but
sometimes it is absent, in favor of a mixed assortment of herbs and
greens. If you find a recipe for an herbolaste, erbolaste, or arbolaste,
they are virtually the same, except those last often contain cheese,
which a tansy lacks, IIRC. The impression I get is that a tansy would be
eaten as a Spring tonic, to cure or forestall the effects of various
vitamin-deficiency diseases like scurvy, which could have come on over
the Winter, when fresh vegetable matter was hard to come by.
A friend of mine, who used to dabble in herbal medicine, made me a
marvelous bruise ointment of lanolin, with infusions of tansy, boneset,
comfrey, oil of cloves, and oil of wintergreen. It killed pain almost
immediately on contact, and somehow flushed the bits of coagulated blood
from the injury, causing it to heal up much faster. I'm talking fighting
bruises here, not casual elbow-cracks. Unfortunately the recipe seems to
have been lost, but I still have quite a bit of the stuff left, and it
seems to grow more potent with age.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:36:58 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - white drinks and other
david friedman wrote:
> At 12:35 AM -0500 10/27/97, Varju at aol.com wrote:
> >Yes, coriander== cilantro.
> >
> >Noemi
>
> Cilantro is the leaves and stems of the coriander plans. The seeds are