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seeds-msg – 1/20/08


Sources for period plants and seeds.


NOTE: See also the files: spices-msg, herbs-msg, p-herbals-msg, rue-msg, woad-msg, saffron-msg, lavender-msg, herb-uses-msg, spice-storage-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.


Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



TO: Caitlin niConair

FROM: Etaoin



You were asking about a supplier for woad.  Richters, of Goodwood Ontario,

is a good supplier for many unusual seeds. They supply woad seeds (as

well as weld, dyers broom, alkanet, coreopsis, madder and a number of

other dye plants).  Woad seeds are inexpensive ($2.50 per package, 1988

prices) and they will ship to Canada or USA.  They accept VISA and

Mastercard and you can phone or fax your order to them. Their catelogue

is about $2.00 and is very interesting.  They can be reached at:  (416)

640-6677 between 8:30 am and 5:00 pm, Mon to Sat (phone) or fax to

(416)640-6641 24 hours a day with credit card orders. Their address is  

Richters, Goodwood, Ontario Canada, L0C 1A0.  I've ordered from them

several times, they seem like a good supplier.

* Origin: The Homestead * TORONTO, ONT * (416) 272-4067 * (1:259/415)



Subj: period roses

Date: 18 May 92

From: EPSTEIN  at ksuvm.ksu.EDU (Emily Epstein)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


Greetings from Alix Mont de fer.


Not too long ago it was brought to my attention that period roses were

available locally at, of all places, K-Mart. The variety is called Austrian

Copper (Rosa Foetida Bicolor), which, according to the Roses of Today and

Yesterday 1992 catalog, grows 4-5 ft. high, is winter hardy (no protection

needed) in Wisconsin and Minnesota, and "dislikes being fussed over". According

to David Austin (_The_Heritage_of_the_Rose_, Antique Collector's Club, 1988

ISBN1-85149-020-5, p.345) it was grown in the Arab world as early as the 12th

century, although both the catalog and the K-mart package simply call it



I purchased one last year from Roses of Today and Yesterday but planted it

too late for bloom. It was the first of my roses to bloom this spring. The

flowers are very pretty, single, with the front of the petals a deep orange-red

and the back yellow. The smell is different from most roses, but pleasant.

I took one to a shire meeting and passed it around. The most frequently used

word was "spicy".  In fact, Lady Tamara went so far as to say "It smells more

like food than like flowers."


The bushes at K-mart are cheaper than the one I bought by mail, priced at

$6.27. The price should go down soon, as it's getting late in the season.

If the K-Mart in Manhattan, Kansas carries this variety, I'm sure others

throughout the U.S. do too.


I purchased 7 old roses from Roses of Yesterday and Today last year, including

Rosa Mundi, Apothecary Rose, Autumn Damask, Musk Rose and White Rose of York.

Despite being planted late, they all made it through a hot and drouthy Kansas

summer and a hard spring freeze with minimum fuss. All but 2 are blooming now.

The catalog is very descriptive, with detailed information on size, care and

history, and black and white illustrations. Each year's cover features an

arrangement of assorted roses in full color, with a tracing-paper key that can

be laid over it. Prices range from $8.75-$10.00. The catalog itself costs

$3.00. The address is: Roses of Yesterday and Today, Inc., 802 Brown's Valley

Road, Watsonville, CA 95076.



Alix Mont de fer          |=======|

    (Emily Epstein)       |* * * *|

Shire of Spinning Winds    XXXXXXX

    (Manhattan, KS)         VVVVV


epstein  at ksuvm.ksu.edu         |





From: JLC  at vax2.utulsa.EDU (JENNIFER CARLSON)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Skirrets (was Re: Feast Menus)

Date: 17 Nov 1993 17:33:12 -0500


Skirrets, as His Grace Cariadoc pointed out, generally cannot be found in

American markets.  HOWEVER: If you like gardening and period food plants, I

know of THE seed catalog you'll want:  Nichols Garden Nursery Herbs and Rare

Seeds catalog.


Nichols carries seeds for a good number of hard-to-find vegetables and herbs

that are called for in period recipes, like skirrets, lovage, lady's mantle,

and salsify.  They also carry laurel trees, hop root cuttings, and saffron

crocus bulbs, as well as dried herbs, essential oils, books, and brewing and

winemaking supplies.


You can get their catalog by writing or calling:


Nichols Garden Nursery

1190 North Pacific Highway

Albany, Oregon 97321-4598



Many thanks to His Grace for the recipes!


Yours in service,


Dunstana Talana the Violet

Northkeep, Ansteorra

Jennifer Carlson

Tulsa, Oklahoma

JLC  at vax2.utulsa.edu



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ritchiek  at sage.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)

Subject: Re: flax seed

Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 17:08:48 GMT


      To those interested in finding flax seed ect. try

Richters in I believe Ontario Canada.  I know its Canada anyway.

They have seeds for flax, Woad, Saffron ect.  all kinds of herbs ect.

I don't have the address here at work today but could get it if you need

it.  -Isabeau Pferdebandiger, Barony of Rivenstar, Middle



From: hrjones  at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: flax seed

Date: 30 Nov 1993 05:20:20 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley


gary van lingen <gvanlin1  at mach1.wlu.ca> wrote:

>My partner and I have decided to try growing flax but need to find locations

>where the seed can be purchased (the average seed store not stocking said

>seed on anywhere approaching a regular basis).  If other flax growers are on

>the Net, could you please post where you get your seed.  Thanks.


When I grew a flax crop, I got the seed from my local health-food store.

I have no idea what the store thought they were selling it for (how does

one normally eat flax seed?) but the stuff was completely unprocessed

and germinated enthusiastically. The other advantage to this source is

that the seed is amazinly cheap by the pound!


Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn/Heather Rose Jones



From: jab2  at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: flax seed

Date: 30 Nov 93 09:22:48

Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.


Apparently the fax seed from health food stores is not as good for

fibres as the stuff bred specifically for linen production.


If anyone wants to grow flax specifically for fibre and not for

linseed oil the magazine "spin off" in Summer 1992 did a whole load of

articles on flax cultivation preparation and spinning. (no, I'm

nothing to do with the magazine apart from reading the odd issue)


They also carried and advertising feature with names and addresses of

suppliers of seeds and tools as given below.



Vanaheim Vikings




Suppliers of flax seeds for fibre:


Abundant life seed Foundation,

P.O. Box 772

Port Townsend

Washington 98368

(Variety = 'cascade')


Mavis Atton,

The Shepherds Den,

Irish Blocks road RR1,



Noh 1Z0,


(Variety = 'Natasia')



Box 241,


New York 10580

(variety = 'viking')


Landis Valley Museum Heritage Seed Project

2451 Kissel Hill Road,


Pennsylvania 17601

(Variety = 'Ariane')


Dale Liles,

2142 Cherokee Blvd.,


Tennessee 37919

(heirloom variety)


Otto Richter's



LOC 1A0,


(Variety = 'Regina')


Southern Exposure Seed Exchange,

P.O. Box158,

North Garden,

Virginia 22959

(varietys =  'Ariane' and 'Norfolk Queen')



write for info. & price lists



1388 Ross Street,


California 94954


Alden Amos,

11178 Upper Previtali Road,


California 95642



From: powers  at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: flax seed

Date: 30 Nov 1993 11:05:14 -0500

Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science


Remember that flax has been bred for two different uses:

      oil, linseed oil

      Fibre, line flax


If you want to grow flax to process and spin DO NOT get seed for an

oil producing variety.


Caveat: the seeds from line flax can be used to produce oil and

        the oil producing flax can be processed for fibre; but

        the fibre is not nearly as nice. (look up "tow")


wilelm, married to a spinster



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: hwt  at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)

Subject: Heritage Seeds (was Re: flax seed)

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 14:36:27 GMT


In article <CH642L.9wD  at mach1.wlu.ca>, gvanlin1 at mach1.wlu.ca (gary van lingen) writes:


|> My partner and I have decided to try growing flax but need to find locations


In Canada, Richter's Herbs, Goodwood, Ontario.


They mail order to the rest of the world.


This information from Dave Platt, dplatt  at ntg.com:


These varieties aren't easy to find in the commercial seed catalogs...

but there are a number of smaller companies which carry them.


Here are some companies I've dealt with:


      Seeds Blum

      Idaho City Stage

      Boise, Idaho


Good selection early in the season; they often sell out of many popular

varieties of heirloom vegetables by February.  Order *EARLY*... I

ordered on 1/4/90 and got my order promptly, but a couple of years ago I

ordered in February and didn't get my seeds until early April.  They

tend to get very badly backlogged, and are hard to reach on the phone.

It's too late to order from them for this planting season...  but you

could request a catalog next fall and order for next year's season.


      Abundant Life

      P.O. Box 772

      Port Townsend WA 98368


Smaller selection than Seeds Blum.  Good service, the times I've ordered

from them.  They have some short-growing-season, cool-weather tomatoes

(e.g. Siberia) which might be well suited to your location.


      J.L. Hudson, Seedsman

      P.O. Box 1058

      Redwood City, CA  94064

      [no phone, don't bother asking Information]


Wonderful "World Seed Service" catalog... ornamentals, herbs, and food

plants from all around the planet.  Has a small selection of open-

pollenated vegetable seeds, and a collection of seeds collected among

the Zapotec Indian tribes in the mountains of Oaxaca, Mexico.  Good

service, nice folks.  Has seeds for Purple Calabash tomatoes... a

variety which must be seen to be disbelieved (it's INCREDIBLY ugly) and

tasted to be appreciated (the most tomato flavor I've encountered to



      Redwood City Seed Company

      Redwood City, CA


      I don't have their street address handy;  they do have a phone

      in the 415 area code.


Decent selection of open-pollenated varieties, and other useful plants.


All of these companies are small, and would certainly appreciate your

sending a dollar or two for their catalogs.


Also worth having is a catalog from


      Gardens Alive!

      5100 Schenley Place

      Lawrenceburg, IN   47025

      (812) 537-8650


This is an excellent one-stop source for gardeners who want to purchase

pre-blended organic fertilizers, diatomaceous earth, Safer insectidical

soap, beneficial insects, milky spore, cover-crop seeds, botanically-

derived insecticides, BT, Tanglefoot, sticky-traps, pheromone traps,

floating row covers, bee attractant, and other garden-without-

poisoning-the-whole-neighborhood materials.  The catalogs are very

informative;  several times a year they include pictures of common

insect pests and diseases, and describe low-impact ways of dealing with

same.  The prices are good... more often than not they're lower than

prices for similar products at local stores (when the stores even have



Henry Troup - H.Troup  at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions



From: Lhiannan  at f42.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Lhiannan)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: flax seed

Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1993 07:31:00 -0500


-=> Quoting Heather Rose Jones to All <=-


> In article <CH642L.9wD  at mach1.wlu.ca>,

> gary van lingen <gvanlin1  at mach1.wlu.ca> wrote:

>My partner and I have decided to try growing flax but need to find locations


HRJ> When I grew a flax crop, I got the seed from my local health-food

HRJ> store. I have no idea what the store thought they were selling it for


Um.  Well, it depends on what you want the flax for.  If you want to grow

it for the seed, the health-food store variety is great. But if you want

fiber . . . The varieties used to grow flax for seed are only about 18" tall.


I did some tests with growing flax from different sources a couple of

years ago.  The health-food store variety and the stuff the university

Agronomy dept. gave me were both seed-type and were very short.  The

third source I used was from a seed company advertising heirlooms.  It

grew about 3' tall.  My dad says he remembers flax growing 6' in 'his day.'


Now, of course, you want the name of the company, don'tcha?  I can't find

it, but I'll look again when I've had some sleep.





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: period edible plants

From: una  at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 93 11:00:48 EST

Organization: I'll take a triple serving, please

Keywords: seeds of change

Summary: Adress and much more on Period plants


Respected Friends:

      I lost the original post asking for info on modern sources for

period plants, and my reply, to a carnivorous program. I'm trying again.

      For period fruit: Miller nurseries advertise in every gardening

publication. They sell, along with many other marvelous antique varieties,

a genuine, no joke, documented pre-1600 apple tree-- the Gillyflower. It's

very aromatic, sweet, and soft-fleshed. I suspect it was originally

prized for producing unparalleled sweet (unfermented) cider.  

      Here in inland NH it always ripens during Pennsic week. (SIGH).

Furthur north/inland, it would be great to come home to; enough further

south/coastal and you could bring Authentic Cider with you for a really

knock'emdead party contribution (Invite Me!) This timing was probably

part of its value, since mid-august is WAY ahead of the NH commercial


      They also sell at least one period rose, called by some nursuries

the `Robin Hood' rose- Rosa Rugosa. the ad calls it `Hardy, profusely

flowering, deliciously fragrant and heavy bearing, with hips the size of

plums.' All true. It is also implacably invasive. Plant one in the middle

of each patch of ornamental bamboo (Southeast kingdoms read Kudzu), then

stand back and take bets. Based on thirty year's experience, I suggest

short odds on the rosebush. In the East it stabilizes/takes over threatened

beaches, since it's perfectly happy to divide and conquer on a diet of

salt and sand... Well, I did warn you.

      For non-woody plants, Seeds of Change is only one of a long list

of  sources for heirloom plant seed. its adress is

621 Old Santa Fe Trail #10, Santa Fe, NM 87501

It costs three bucks, refunded with order.

      But be VERY careful. `heirloom' and `period' are at best vaguely

related terms. You might have much better luck with the small catalogues

of European gourmet veggies! Just one example of the problem (From a '40s

National Geographic): dark red beets and orange carrots are both 1700's

mutations. Pre-1600 carrots were whites and yellows; beets were yellow,

pink, striated and (!)purple.

      Megagiant Gurney's Seed, difficult though it may be to believe,

has both yellow and striated beets, both as exclusives. Mother Earth news

issue 116 (may-apr 89) has a list of large & small seed companies on page

55; most of the adresses would still be good. Check last years' Feb-Apr

mags. at your library for more. While you're there the librarian can find

you the old Geographic article, and probably some books, about the origens

and ancestry of food plants. There's just no way to summarize that here,

and the info is very important.

       An example of why I belive this, and a perpetual sore point

with me: Favas are the ONLY old world bean, cran- and blue- berries the

ONLY new world bush fruits. If I had a nickel for ever kidney-bean soup

and cranberry bread I've ever had shoved at me, complete with quoted

recipe calling for FAVA beans and BOG berries, in the past 21 years--

I might not have plane fare for Estrella, but I could certainly pull

a respectable raid on the Stock Clerk's back-issues list!

      Your desire to learn of and grow Period veggies and fruits is

a laudable one, deserving all the support I hope you get. Don't give

up. This is the kind of thing that got me playing this game in the

first place. I'd love to hear what kind of stuff you track down, and will

try to send you whatever I can find if you send me an Email adress.

                  With hopes for your success, I remain, yours in

                        service to the Society: Honour Horne-Jaruk.

                                     (KSA Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf)



From: DDF2  at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: period edible plants

Date: 7 Jan 1994 03:58:15 GMT

Organization: Cornell Law School


Honur Horne-Jaruk  (Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf) wrote:


>     For period fruit: Miller nurseries advertise in every gardening

> publication. They sell, along with many other marvelous antique varieties,

> a genuine, no joke, documented pre-1600 apple tree-- the Gillyflower.


Miller is one source, but Southmeadow Fruit Gardens, 2363 Tilbury Place,

Birmingham, Michigan 48009, has a much larger selection of period fruit

trees, as well as a very informative catalog. My memory from the last time

I went through it is that there are a dozen or so period apples, as well as

one or two plums, a "maybe" cherry, ...  .


>     They also sell at least one period rose, called by some nursuries

> the `Robin Hood' rose- Rosa Rugosa.


Roses of Yesterday and Today, in California, has a bunch of period

varieties; I am afraid I do not have their address ready to hand.


>      An example of why I belive this, and a perpetual sore point

> with me: Favas are the ONLY old world bean, cran- and blue- berries the

> ONLY new world bush fruits.


This is a little misleading. Lentils and garbanzo beans (aka chickpeas) are

also period. So are soybeans, although I have never seen evidence of their

use in Europe in period. The European bilberry is a member of the same

genus as the New World blueberry; I am not sure how similar it is in taste.

There are both old world and new world cranberries, although the current

commercial varieties are new world. My source for much of this information

is the book by McGee on the history of food--I have a copy around somewhere

if anyone wants more detailed cites.



DDF2  at Cornell.Edu



From: una  at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: period edible plants

Summary: more info and new period plant source adress.

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 08:43:52 EST


augment  at world.std.com (Michael Bergman) writes:


> I'm curious -- what about Swedish LingonBerries?  I assume that

> Goosberries aren't berries at all...also, are the "broadbeans" that

> they grow at Plimoth a fava?  I am fairly certain they are an old

> world bean, whatever they are.


> --Harald Longfellow

> --

> --Mike Bergman                 Voice: (617) 271-0230

Best answer I can give you, Harald: Gooseberries are a bush fruit, and

old world. I don't own an encyclopedia and don't know about ligonberries,

but an encyclopedia of plants is probably going to tell you  they're

old world in origen.

      The broadbeans are almost certainly really Favas or a backbreed

from same. Once there were many varieties of broadbeans, all from the

_Favis_ family; But with the introduction of more prolific, hardier beans

from the Americas, the vast majority of them were lost because of failure

by the seed-owners to maintain the plantings. Why Favas survived I don't

know; they may have been prolific enough to compete, or there may simply

have been this REALLY STUBBORN Italian family...

      Shepherd's Garden seeds

      30 Irene St.

      Torrington, Ct.06790-6627

has a new catalogue, with the striped beets , among other more-like-period

veggies. Their Golden beet crop, however, failed last year, and they don't

have enough seed to sell this year. They also have

some great Old World/Period flowers, like Single hollyhocks. Herbs too.

      Hope this helps.

      I remain, yours in service to the Society-

      Honour Horne-Jaruk, RSF; Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf



From: DDF2  at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: fruit trees

Date: 11 Feb 1994 15:30:42 GMT

Organization: Cornell Law School


In article <01H8QMVSXUCS91W20W  at delphi.com>, ALBAN  at delphi.COM wrote:


> i'd like to plant fruit trees on some land i own, and in particular

> i'd really like to plant varieties that are in period (so-called

> "heirloom" fruits and vegetables). does anyone out there have any

> experience with this?


The Miscellany contains an article listing period fruit varieties and

sources. Alban should have no trouble finding a copy--he sells them.


If you want to taste period apples, there is a firm called Applesource that

sells a wide range of different varieties by mailorder, including a number

of period ones. Or you could stop at the grocery store on your way to

Pennsic and see if they have "Rambo Apples" (Rambeau d'ete--accent

missing). They sometimes do.



DDF2  at Cornell.Edu



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: destry  at netcom.com (Max Fellwalker)

Subject: Re: : Period Veggies

Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 05:27:31 GMT


david director friedman (ddfr  at quads.uchicago.edu) wrote:


: Aleksandr the Traveller asserts that "The carrots we eat today did

: not exist in period. They were bred up from  the little roots under"

: queen anne's lace.


: I believe that carrots and queen anne's lace are related, and it may

: be true the the former were bred from the latter, but if so it

: occurred long before the end of our period. Carrots in period

: cookbooks are clearly substantial vegetables, and at least some of

: them were colored; I believe Le Menagier refers to them as red or

: orange. I believe it is true that there has been significant furthher

: breeding since thhe end of period, so that the carrots we normally

: eat are not identical to those eaten in period. But that would be

: true for lots of vegetables.

   A good place to get information about possible "period" vegetables and

to order seeds for many ancient and heirloom vegetables is the "Seeds Of

Change" catalog and the "Deep Diversity" catalog available from Seeds of

Change at (505) 438-8080  P.O. Box 15700, Santa Fe, NM 87506...their

catalogs cost a few dollars but are worth it (and contain much information).

   If I could find my D D catalog I might get more info but what I recall

about carrots (as we know them) are that there origins are Central Asia

and the Near East...and I've grown several Heirloom varieties that are

very red.


--  ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... <destry  at netcom.com>



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: polsons  at cruzio.com (The Polsons)

Subject: Re: Oh woad is me....

Organization: Cruzio Community Networking System, Santa Cruz, CA

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:57:08 GMT


In article <39rbpk$9oh  at golf.ustores.missouri.edu>, Shannon Ward

<sward02  at bigcat.missouri.edu> wrote:


> Regarding woad and other dye/pigment plants.  Does anyone know where to

get seeds for these?  I want to start my own pigment garden, but is there

some company that sells woad, weld, madder, etc. seeds??


> Tatiana



Goodwood, Ontario

Canada L0C 1A0


They have madder, woad, weld, indigo...you name it! Happy mail-ordering!

(yes, that IS their complete address)


-Willow     (polsons  at cruzio.com)



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: polsons  at cruzio.com (The Polsons)

Subject: Re: Oh woad is me....

Organization: Cruzio Community Networking System, Santa Cruz, CA

Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 02:04:55 GMT


In article <3aeobf$7e1  at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA>,

millsbn  at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Bruce Mills) wrote:


> In article <polsons-1511941657080001  at>,

> The Polsons <polsons  at cruzio.com> wrote:

> ]>Richters

> ]>Goodwood, Ontario

> ]>Canada L0C 1A0

> ]>

> ]>They have madder, woad, weld, indigo...you name it! Happy mail-ordering!

> ]>(yes, that IS their complete address)

> ]>

> They also have an email address, which they don't answer.

> Akimoya


Hmmm....Conrad Richter e-mails back to me all the time...are you sure you

have the right address?


info  at richters.com

conrad  at richters.com


Here's their phone numbers too:


voice - (905) 640-6677

fax - (905) 640-6641


-Willow     (polsons  at cruzio.com)



From: millsbn  at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Bruce Mills)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Richters On-Line

Date: 13 Jan 1995 07:55:48 -0500

Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada


Richters, purveyor of fine seeds and plants, has their own email

address.  Send mail to info  at richters.com for an automated message on how

to get information on products and ordering.


Akimoya(-dono)(not "san")

(I am not affiliated with Richters in any way, other than being a customer)

(Their replies are quite prompt)



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: destry  at netcom.com (Fellwalker)

Subject: Re: Question about period food

Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:32:20 GMT


Sheri Stanley (Sheri.Stanley  at p1.f1.n107.z180.fidonet.org) wrote:

:  >> : -+-Max  (who knows way too much trivial information for her own good,

:  >> and : can suggest some good seed catalogs for herbs and vegetables)

: Please


: There's a wonderful company called "Bountiful Gardens" which sells

: organically grown seeds, garden accessories (copper to keep slugs away, etc),

: and books. They specialize in raised, double-dug biointensive farming...very

: interesting. They also sell a collection of herb seeds not to be rivalled.

: I've ordered Angelica, Peppermint, Pennyroyal, and Oregano from them. All the

: seeds grew well, and their ship time is excellent. Of course, I've lost their

: address (natch!)...check in the back pages of Mother Earth News magazine,

: though, that's where I first heard of them.


   I've used their catalog for several years,...the address is


        Bountiful Gardens

      18001 Shafer Ranch Road

      Willits, CA 95490-9626

         (707) 459-6410




--  ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... <destry  at netcom.com>



From: donna  at kwantlen.bc.CA (Donna Hrynkiw)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: SOURCE: Medieval Roses

Date: 24 Jan 1995 17:44:00 -0500

Organization: The Internet



Greetings to the folk on the Rialto from Elizabeth Braidwood, gardener.


As any gardener knows, one of the most exciting parts of our year

is paging through the seed and nursery catalogues in January, dreaming of

the garden that could be...  I've found a source for many medieval roses

and would like to share it with all the other medieval gardeners (who

visit the Rialto between weeding and digging).


Pickering Nurseries Inc.

670 Kingston Rd.

Pickering, Ontario

Canada       L1V 1A6


Catalogue $3.00 (Can OR US funds)


A sample of the roses from their current catalogue appears below. The

dates are theirs, but the photos match the period illustrations of roses

that I have fairly closely.


Alba maxima (The Jacobite Rose, about 1450)

   white, double, non-recurrent, excellent hips, grows to 7' tall, very


Semi-plena (prior to 1473)

   white, semi-double, non-recurrent, excellent hips, grows to 6' tall,

   very fragant.

Rosa centifolia ("Provence Rose", "The Cabbage Rose", 1596)

   medium pink, very double, non-recurrent, grows to 6', very fragrant


[Tell you what, unless it says otherwise, -all- of these are non-recurrent

and very fragrant. Oh, and "very winter-hardy" too. They're all

characteristics of early roses.]


Rose of Castile ("The Damask Rose", species, prior to 1600)

   medium pink, double, grows to 5'

York and Lancaster (R. dam. versicolor 1551)

   varying red, pink and white, double, grows to 5'

Apothecary Rose (R. gallica officinalis; species, prior to 1590)

   deep pink, excellent hips, grows to 3'

   [This is the find that made me jump up from my chair and shout "YESSS!"]


More (with fewer details)...

Rosa  gallica (prior to 1500)

Rosa Mundi (R. gallica versicolor, prior to 1581)

Tuscany (1596)

Common Moss ("Old Pink Moss", prior to 1600)

Austrian Copper (Rosa Foetida bicolor, prior to 1590)

Rosa agrestis (species; native to Europe)

Rosa eglanteria (syn. Rosa rubiginosa, 'Sweet Briar Rose', native to Europe)

Rosa moschata (Musk Rose, 1540)

Rosa moschata plena (prior to 1596)

R. villosa (Pomifera - 'Apple Rose', native to Europe)


Virtually every bush in the entire catalogue (about 20 letter-folded-in-

half size pages x about 45 entries per page) is either $8 or $8.50 (both

Canadian AND American).


This is my second catalogue from Pickering and I only sent my first order

away a couple days ago. I'll let you know what happens.


Elizabeth Braidwood

Who is also expecting delivery of her very own -complete facsimile- copy

of Gerard's Herbal... any day now.

donna  at kwantlen.bc.ca



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: steve.mercer  at network.com (Steve E. Mercer)

Subject: Re: Source for Saffron Crocus

Organization: Network Systems Corporation

Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 17:44:05 GMT


If you are looking for Saffron Crocus bulbs so that you can grow

your own saffron, one place that you can get them is from Nichols

Garden Nursery.  In their "Herbs and Rare Seeds" catalog they have:


<begin quote>

[This is a direct quote from the 1994 catalog -Justin]  

*Saffron Crocus Bulbs* - /Crocus sativus./ Now you can have

the pleasure of growing your own saffron, the world's rarest

and most expensive spice.  The bulbs flower in late fall,

producing large orange stigmas from which saffron, a much

prized seasoning is obtained.  The large crocus flowers are

attractive, with colors ranging from rosy lilac purple to deep

purple.  Cultural and harvest directions included.

6 Saffron bulbs $4.75 12 for $8.50 50 for $31.95 100 for $57.50

[I would guess that the prices are different for 1995 -Justin]




Today most Saffron is commercially cultivated in a Southern

band from Spain to the Far East.  There was a time in

England, from the late crusades to he mid 18th century,

when Saffron was grown just north of London near the town

of Saffron Walden, Essex.

<end quote>


I got the catalog for free by calling them at (503)-928-9280


Justin Silvanus

Barony of Nordskogen, Principality of Northshield, Middle Kingdom

Steve Mercer

steve.mercer  at network.com



From: Mike Huber <mike.huber  at software.rockwell.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: saffron: crocus bulbs source

Date: 5 Sep 1995 20:09:10 GMT

Organization: Rockwell Software


una  at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) wrote:

>maelred  at aol.com (M aelred) writes:


>> I have a source for up to 400 saffron crocus bulbs.

>> please Email me for more

>> anything else might be advertising (so I can't spll)

>     Respected friend:

>     Me, please!

>                       Honour/Una/Alizaunde


I have before me the Nichols Garden Nursery catalog, which lists

that plant. The telephone # is (503)928-9280 and the address

1190 North Pacific Coast Highway

Albany, OR, 97321-4580


I have no dealings with them, except that I'm likely to place

an order soon.


Anaximander of Xidon

mike.huber  at software.rockwell.com



From: Uduido  at aol.com

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:38:03 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: SC - Lagenaria


In a message dated 97-05-03 02:06:20 EDT, you write:


<< the Italian Edible

Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L.

Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). >>


This is the species that I referred to as the Luffa Gourd (sponge). J.L.

Hudson is an excellent source for exotic seeds from all over the world!

Highly recommended! Their catalog is a reference source that is invaluable to

any serious horticulturist/gardener. Luffa seeds are also carried by local

sores and all major seed companys including Burpee.


Lord Ras



From: Baaastard  at aol.com

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:23:06 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: SC - The Seed Savers Exchange


To all those interested, here is the address of the Seed Savers Exchange:


Seed Savers Exchange

3076 North Winn Road

Decorah, IA 52101


Membership is $20 per year.


I would also strongly recommend buying the book Taylor's Guide to Heirloom

Vegetables by Benjamin Watson.  It is available through Barnes and Noble

bookstores.  Pictures and descriptions of a large number of heirloom

vegetables, as well as growing information.  Also has lists of mail-order

seed sources(describing what that company specializes in) and various

organizations interested in conserving heirloom seed varieties.  


If you are looking for sources for anything specific let me know and I'll see

if I can find a source for the seeds.


Thank you,

Michael Farrell



Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:42:27 -0400 (EDT)

From: DianaFiona  at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - help-Queen Ann's La



     And as a point of interest, I found *white* carrot seed in a California

seed company's catalog (Bountiful Gardens, perhaps?). Now if I can just get

around to planting them............!


Ldy Diana



Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:23:34 -0400 (EDT)

From: Uduido  at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Squash


My apologies. I didn't mean to insinuate that one couldn't substitute tthe

items you mention if you make it a point to say that is what you're doing and



I tend to grow (or have grown for me ) the 'special' things I might need for

a feast and sometimes forget that others do not have the same resources as I.

By the way, if you know someone with a garden space several seed companies

now carry a medieval like carrot> Gurneys and Burpees both have read and

white carrot varieties listed the last time I looked. They also carry white

tomatoes which can be documented to the Elizabethan era where they were used

as plantings around homes much as we use French marigolds today. I have seen

a variety of 'leaf' cabbage listed also from time to time.


With a little gardening know-how and a place to put a 5 gallon container or

two outside some of these plants could be grown on a small scale allowing a

person to invite over a couple of people for an authentic medieval dish

occasionally. :-)


Lord Ras



Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:51:06 -0700

From: Ron and Laurene Wells <tinyzoo  at vr-net.com>

Subject: SC - Grow your own AMERICAN Chestnuts!


>When I was a kid, we used to roast chestnuts on the fire. Nowadays, so many

>of the chestnut trees have died due to disease and pollution, It's almost

>impossible to find them. I wish you well.




If you would like to replenish the population of dwindling Chestnut trees,

you can order True AMERICAN Chestnut trees from this Nursery:


Oregon Exotics

1065 Messinger Road

Grants Pass, OR  97527



The American Chestnut is guaranteed to arrive blight free, about 2'-3' tall.

They are $5 each, catalog number #N089


Or you can order your own catalog (FASCINATING plants, mushroom, trees, and

other edible flora in this catalog!) for $4.00 - many pictures, and chock

full of information!  You're free to tell them that Laurene Wells told you

about them, though I don't think it will do me any good. I just love

reading their catalog!


- -Laurene



Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:33:13 EST

From: LrdRas <LrdRas  at aol.com>

Subject: SC - clary sage-source


Here is a source for clary sage seeds/plants. I have not dealt with this

company so I do not know anything about them. You will notice an 800 number

for customer service so you can call and ask questions about pricing, etc.




HC 33 BOX 2057

BOISE, ID 83706


Orders: 1-800-528-3658

Customer Service: 1-800-742-1423

Fax: 1-208-338-5658





Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:01:09 EST

From: DianaFiona <DianaFiona  at aol.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Skirrets (was Gunther's Mashed Carrots and Parsnips)



We have never been able to find skirrets. According to the Oxford English

Dictionary they are "a species of water parsnip, formerly much cultivated

in Europe for its esculent tubers." Have you ever tasted them? Or do you

know where one can find them or get more information on them? We have a

recipe for turnip potage which says you can also make it with "pastunakes

and skyrwittes", pasternakes being a general term for carrots or parsnips,

and I would like to try it with the skirrets if I can ever get some.


Elizabeth/Betty Cook


      Well, if you are willing/able to grow them yourself, Nichol's Garden

Nursery (http://www.pacificharbor.com/nichols/) carries the seed. I've been

meaning to start a bed of them and Good King Henry (Which Nichol's also

carries--*love* that catalog!), just haven't found the space yet.


     Ldy Diana



Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:53:27 -0800

From: Ron and Laurene Wells <tinyzoo  at vr-net.com>

Subject: SC - Feast Fruit - Medlar


>>This menu is still rather tentative. One thing you'll notice is the

>>absence of the fairly typical medieval dried fruit dish. I may correct



   Something I haven't seen anyone talk about serving is bletted Medlar

fruits.  I have read in several sources that this fruit was very popular in

Medival times.  I know of a nursery where you can order the young trees, but

I don't know how long it takes them to grow to maturity. I've never had the

opportunity to taste one myself, but I am very curious. If I ever get my

own land, I hope to plant some of these so I can have an opportunity to try


   You can order a catalog from OREGON EXOTICS for $4 from 1065 Messinger

Road, Grants Pass, OR 97527 or call 541-846-7578.  One Medlar tree is $18.

And there is information on history and harvesting in the catalog.


- -Laurene



Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:51:28 EDT

From: DianaFiona <DianaFiona  at aol.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Spices-another source



In an earlier post someone mentioned being able to by saffron crocuses at the

nursery.  I would dearly love to try and grow these, but have not seen them in

Missouri.  Our winters do get cold enough to set the bulbs, so if anyone would

happen to know of a mail order source, I would be REALLY interested.




     That's easy enough--a number of mail order sources carry them. One of my

favorites is Nichols Garden nursery in Oregon. Their web address is:



     If you don't have web access let me know and I'll get the phone #, etc.

for you.


          Ldy Diana



Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:53:29 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jenne Heise <jenne  at tulgey.browser.net>

To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Spices


On Thu, 21 May 1998, Gayle A Bitker wrote:

> On Thu, 21 May 1998 17:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Jenne Heise

> <jenne  at tulgey.browser.net> writes:

> >You can also get seed for it from a catalog, if you are willing to wait

> >that long.

> OK!  My question is:  Where can I find such a catalog?  We've been

> looking for sources for seeds for spices, etc. for a while, but haven't

> found any.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!


I've heard good things about Johnny's Selected Seeds

(http://www.johnnyseeds.com/) which has an impressive selection of seeds,

including chervil ($1.30 for the packet).


Organic Gardening (OG) has periodic articles on herbs and lists

herb-seed-selling catalogs in those articles. Or pick up a copy of 'Herb

Quarterly' and browse the ads...


Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus)

         aka Aunt Bunny, mka Jennifer Heise



Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:47:12 -0700 (PDT)

From: Catherine Harper <tylik  at eskimo.com>

To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Spices


On Thu, 21 May 1998, Gayle A Bitker wrote:

> OK!  My question is:  Where can I find such a catalog?  We've been

> looking for sources for seeds for spices, etc. for a while, but haven't

> found any.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Horizon herbs is a favorite source of mine.







Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 12:01:27 -0800

From: Jenny Johanssen <johanssen  at matnet.com>

Subject: Re: SC - parsley root


Bogdan - it's funny that I run across a request for info about Hamburg

Turnip Rooted Parsley.  I am just planting my garden here in Palmer,

Alaska and last week I found a package of seeds for "Hamburg Turnip

Rooted Parsley" (which I planted).  According to the package: "Bring

back the forgotten culinary art of rare seasonings with this old-world

vegetable.  The unusual root has hints of celery yet has a flavor all

its own.  Harvest in 90 days."  "Use roots for salads, soups and stews.

Boil and mash or fry.  Use leaves for flavoring and garnish. "The seed

was packaged by NK Lawn and Garden Co., Minneapolis, Mn 55459


Hope this helps - Jenny



Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:35:25 -0500

From: "Robert Newmyer" <rnewmyer  at epix.net>

Subject: Re: SC - oop yorkshire pudding recipe needed!


> BTW, can lingonberries be grown here in the states? specifically

>in Oregon?


Checked my Jung Seed catalog. They sell lingonberry plants and say they are

hardy in zones 4 to 7 (good for all of Oregon)


J. W. Jung Seed Co.

335 S. High St.

Randolph, WI 53957-0001

Phone: 1-800-247-5864



               Griffith Allt y Genlli

               Bob Newmyer



Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:50:54 EST

From: LrdRas  at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Marshmallows


margali  at 99main.com writes:

<< hey, Master A, any idea where i can find any more of the stuff? >>


Pine Tree Seeds offers the seed of the marshmallow plant in their catalog.

To obtain their catalog (recommended) go to http://www.superseeds.com/





Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:46:48 -0500

From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip  at morganco.net>

Subject: SC - Fw: Seed catalogs


Since It's getting to be that time of year again, here's a listing of online

seed companies some of you might be interested in if you want to grow any of

your own foods and herbs this summer.




Philippa Farrour

Caer Frig

Southeastern Ohio


- -----Original Message-----

From: George F. Carmichael <macrobb  at dnaco.net>

To: phlip  at morganco.net <phlip  at morganco.net>
























Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:01:12 -0400

From: Angie Malone <alm4  at cornell.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - cordials + Borage


If you have a local farm and garden store try there.  In NY we have places

called Agway, where they have borage seeds. I ordered mine from Shumway

seed company a few years ago, but haven't planted more since.


I also like Pinetree Seeds.  http://www.superseeds.com

You can order smaller seed packets from them to try different things and

the seed packets are about half the price of the larger ones.  They also

have some interesting possibly period seeds.  They have the edible gourd

seeds.  They are in the italian vegetable seed section and here's the blurb:


IT66. CUCUZZI (55 days)


Italian edible gourd. You can tell that these are truly gourds from the

leaf shape and the white flowers, but when harvested young, the uses are identical to zucchini. The flavor is stronger, however--difficult to describe. Vines are long and spreading. As with the zucchetta tromboncino, if you don't harvest them young, these will grow to a remarkable length, close to 4 feet.

20 seeds .55





Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:35:19 +0100

From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" <Karin.Oughton  at geis.ge.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Apple breeds?


> From: HICKS, MELISSA [SMTP:HICKS_M  at casa.gov.au]

> Some friends of mine have recently bought a property/farm in rural Victoria,

> Australia.  They sent the following request for information on "period"

> apple species.  Can anyone here supply further info or suggest some

> avenues of research for them?


> Meliora.


> > ----------

> > From:       Kim & Ian Stanley-Eyles[SMTP:heathen  at tpg.com.au]

> > To:         Meliora & Drake

> >

> > In the furtherance of our rural & mediaeval activities, we are thinking

> > of planting some apple trees in the orchard from our period (or

> > thereabouts) and ask if you have any information on these.

> >

> > Autumn Permain syn Summer Permain late 1500's England

> > Court Pendu Plat syn Wise Apple plus others pre-1500 Europe

> > Devonshire Quarrenden pre-1678 England possibly from France

> > Fenouillet Gris syn Carraway Russet 1608 France

> > Golden Harvey syn Brandy Apple 1600's England (Herts.)

> > Gravenstein possibly Schleswig-Holstein pre-1667 possibly Italy

> > Issac Newton's Tree (original tree unknown) c.1660 England (Lincs.)

> > London Pippin syn Five Crown 1580 England

I have the perfect answer for you, AND it keeps it in the family ; ) My

father in law was the director for the Brogdale Trust ( a charity) , which

hold the UK gene banks for apples, pears, plums, cherries, vines etc etc



Gerry said he had something like 4500 different varieties of apple trees on

site. They can provide information, seminars, root stock - you name it. They

have a web site at http://www.brogdale.org.uk/  - they run a mail order

service etc. I don't know about the legalities of importing stock into

Australia, but I'm sure they can help. I recommend just browsing through

their mail order service .......


And as an aside - if any one is looking for an interesting plum to plant,

the "transparent gage" gets my vote for the most bizarre fruit ( hopeless

for storage though ) - it forms this beautiful huge fruit which is

transparent - when the sun shines through you can see the stone in it etc,

and when you bite, it just bursts in your mouth with an explosion of

flavour.......have lots of wipes on hand :)





Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:31:46 -0700 (MST)

From: Ben Engelsberg <bengels  at chronic.lpl.arizona.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - blue corn


Native Seeds-Search

526 N. 4th Ave.

Tucson, Az. 85705



Last time I was down on 4th ave, they were still in business.


Glad to help,




Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:27:28 -0600 (MDT)

From: Linda Peterson <mirhaxa  at swcp.com>

Subject: Re: SC - blue corn


On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Ann Sasahara wrote:

> Last year, I saw a place in Albuquerque where these seeds where available

> (only open on Thursdays; and they have Hopi pink corn too):


> Native Seed Search

> 144 Harvard Dr SE

> Albuquerque, NM 87106

> (505) 268-9233


The store is still here. Their phone message says send $1 to:

Native Seed Search

PO Box 4865

Albuquerque, NM 87196


for a catalogue, or see their web page at www.nativeseeds.org



  mirhaxa  at morktorn.com



Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:36:35 -0400

From: renfrow  at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: Re: SC - Questions about Archives and Carrots


I just looked at a site yesterday that offered seeds for heirloom carrots

in a variety of colors:  http://www.webslnger.com/wethepeople/


Wild carrots have white roots.  Le Menagier talks of carrots with red

roots.  Gervase Markham mentions carrots of "sundry colours", and Gerard

describes a yellow carrot, and a blackish-red carrot. Carrots colored pale

orange and dark red can be seen in oil paintins of the 16th century.

Epulario uses carrots to make a jelly a sanguine color.


Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu

renfrow  at skylands.net



Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:06:23 +1000

From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M  at casa.gov.au>

Subject: SC - Medlars in Australia


Medlars are indeed difficult to obtain and I have never seen the fruit sold

commercially.  I recently managed to find a nursery in Australia that sells



Unicorn Gardens

Ballarat-Colac Rd


Ph: 03 - 5346 1562

Email: unicorngardens  at easymail.telstra.com.au

Mail-order: YES


And the proprietor, Julie, looks like becoming an SCA member.


My Nottingham has just started to show green buds in the last couple of

days, but the Dutch still looks dead. However according to my Botanica,

Canberra is in hardiness Zone 8 (if that translates well to the rest of the






Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:25:57 -0400

From: rhiannon  at madcelt.com

Subject: Re: SC - RE: Onions


Lord Ras wrote:

> Does anyone happen to have a telephone number for Guerney's which is where

> I originally purchased my walking onions?


Here you go:


Gurney's Seed and Nursery Co.

Order Number  1-605-665-1930

Customer Service 1-605-665-1671


[And their web page is at: http://www.gurneys.com/  -Lady Brighid ni Chiarain]





Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:41:37 -0600

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings  at mindspring.com>

Subject: SC - Lady apples source


Lady apple trees are available from Miller Nurseries

in NY in their antique selection.  Other period apples

they sell are Summer Rambo, Sops of Wine and Snow

(fameuse).   1-800-836-9630


Akim Yaroslavich



Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:46:47 -0800

From: Ron and Laurene Wells <tinyzoo  at aracnet.com>

Subject: SC - Alpine Strawberry plants



Alpine strawberry seeds are carried by most seed companies and can also be

found in many garden center seed racks. They are not difficult to grow, have

good germination rates and can be planted along fence lines or even along

hedges and walkways if space is at a premium. While there are limited


for the plants in the US, that is not a problem since seed is readily

available. Try Pine Tree, Nichols, Agway garden centers, Lowes, Burpees, etc.

Ras >>

    Hummmm--I seem to recall that germination is improved by a period of

cold, from the last time I was trying to find space to plant some. Or am I

confusing my plants again? ;-) BTW. I actually did find a few plants

available at a good nursery a few years ago. They didn't fare well where I

had them--probably too shady--but the few berries I got were yummy!


            Ldy Diana


- ----------


You can buy the PLANTS through Raintree Nursery, in Washington.  



They have several varieties of strawberry plants (they also sell a Medival

MEDLAR tree that I am anxious to purchase!) including the White Alpine

strawberry you all are talking about so much.  Their catalogs are very

informative and fun to read.  I'm sure you won't be dissapoint to order one!

- -Laurene



Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:50:54 -0600

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings  at mindspring.com>

Subject: SC - Period plant sources


Laurene writes:

>You can buy the PLANTS through Raintree Nursery, in Washington.



>They have several varieties of strawberry plants (they also sell a Medival

>MEDLAR tree that I am anxious to purchase!) including the White Alpine

>strawberry you all are talking about so much.  Their catalogs are very

>informative and fun to read.  I'm sure you won't be dissapoint to order



While I would very much like another medlar (I had a fruiting one at my

old house), I am very hesitant to pay the kinds of prices commercial

nurseries are charging (plus shipping).  Medlars, I understand, like

pawpaws do not transplant as well as most ordinary fruit trees unless

they are rather small.  What burns me is paying $24.99 for a bloody

rooted twig!  I do however have an alternative route to try.

As a landscape architect, I have wholesale sources for seed of

several expensive or hard to find species.  Would anyone on the

list be interested in splitting pound lots of seeds for the following


Asimina triloba (pawpaw)   28.00/#

Cornus mas     (Cornelian cherry)  12.00/#

Crataegus monogyna (English hawthorn)   15.00/#  (rosehaw jelly)

Crataegus laevigata    (English hawthorn)   18.00/# (rosehaw jelly)

Mespilus germanica  (Medlar)    21.00/#

Pinus pinea  (Italian stone pine)  12.00/#   (pinenuts)

Taxus baccata  (English yew)   28.00/#      (herb garden edging)


Minimum order for me is $50.00 plus shipping and

the prices are from the 1999 catalogue so they may

be a little higher.  I find that growing from seed gives

better plants that can be transplanted in quantity when

small, resulting in a faster maturity than planting a larger

nursery grown plant.  The larger ones often take 2 years or

so just to recover from shipping and transplant shock.

This is  the way to get more plants very reasonably.

Most of these are true to seed except medlars and cornels

but all of the named varieties are mostly modern and

very few in number.  I don't think there will be any adverse

differences in non grafted seed-grown plants from

any period types anyway.





Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:41:41 -0500

From: Angie Malone <alm4  at cornell.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Period pumpkin recipes


>Those long-necked pale-green Italian gourds in Tacuinum Sanitatis are

>really big. If i can find something like them at a local market...


>Hey, Lord Ras, how easy are they to grow? And where'd you get the

>seeds? And how were they to eat?


>Anahita al-shazhiyya


I'm not Ras, but here's the information I know about.


The seeds are available in at least two gardening catalogs, one I remember

the name of and one I don't.  They are easy to grow if you have a big

enough growing season.  The edible cucuzzi  which is the pale-green with

white flowers take 110 days.


Actually Baker's Creek Heirloom Seeds has more than one variety that is not

curcibita, and you can order a catalog from them on line:




The place I saw the seeds I think was pinetree seeds, but I don't have a

url handy for them.





Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:31:35 -0800

From: lilinah  at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: SC - Re: period pumpkin recipies


At Baker Creek Heirloom seeds, i looked on the curcubit page, but

didn't see anything that looked likely. Are gourds somewhere else

on-line or do i need to order a hard-copy catalog?


For Pinetree seeds, try:



(Aelfwyn left off the www. part)


I found the Italian edible gourds as cucuzzi at Pinetree.


Anahita the black-thumbed



Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:19:14 -0400

From: "Hupman, Laurie" <LHupman  at kenyon.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Cherries


>ekoogler  at chesapeake.net writes:

><< I was able to get the Montmorency's dried from Baker's Catalogue.. >>


>The important question is > where can one obtain the plants? :-)




Here's one place on line:



They have the Montmorency and the Northstar, which is a hybrid of the

Morello and something else.


Rose :)



Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:45:53 EDT

From: Mbatmantis  at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Cherries


There are three types of cherries; Sweet, Sour (pie) and Duke.

  There are two types of sour cherries: Amarelle (clear juice yellow flesh)

or Morello (red juice and flesh) . The Montmorency is the amarelle type. It

is the standard sour cherry. They are very easily found at any nursery that

deals in fruit trees or from any mail order source.

  They are available through Stark Bro's for $20 for semi-dwarf trees. Dwarf

trees are a little more. The web site is MySeasons.com .

    All cherries need a considerable winter chill and moist but well drained






Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:01:32 -0700

From: lilinah  at earthlink.net

Subject: SC - Where to Get Historic Food Plants and Seeds


A recent thread on a non-SCA list turned up these resources.


It's probably a bit late in most places in the Northern hemisphere to

plant, but it's a good time to make a wish list for spring.


The following stuff is all forwarded, none are from me.

- -------

As to the white carrots... I found some seed available at Bountiful Gardens

(who specialize in things like heirloom plants).


Here is the web site and what they say about the Belgian White Carrots





Carrot &#8212; Daucus carota &#8212;


ALL/Matures 9-11/Harvest 3-6/Yield 8-23/ Spac 3 (or broad- cast carefully)/

Cons 11.7 (.75-1)/Area 32-64, Camb, Wh 29-58 Apr# 800 except Camberly,

Juwarot 500, White 300


Many gardeners are amazed at the quality and flavor. of our

varieties, even "standard" ones like our Nantes stand out. Easily

grown in average garden soil without many stones, which cause

deformities and splitting. Avoid freshly-manured soil. Prefers light,

loamy soil. Do not allow the seed bed to dry out after planting.

Plant in succession for constant supply. Medicinal: detoxifier,

supports liver, kidneys, diuretic, etc.


Belgian White &#8212; (1885) This variety grows pure white - very

striking on the table! Mild flavor unlike other carrots but quite

delicious. A very productive carrot which can get large. Also for

those who don't tolerate carotene. N Price $ 1.50

- -------

Redwood City Seed Company, in Redwood City, California, specializes

in heirloom and old-world seeds.


They can be reached at





P. O. Box 361, Redwood City, California 94064 U.S.A.

Craig & Sue Dremann, Proprietors

PHONE: (650) 325-7333


They are wonderful people, and they have lots of crazy interesting stuff!


The rare plants suppliment to the Redwood City Seed Co's catalog has this gem:



TOMATO Costoluto Catanese. The oldest variety of tomato in Europe,

from the 16th cent. PKT. $2.75

- -------

Here are the catalog resources, I highly recommend them to anyone

interested in heirloom varieties...


Nichol's Garden Nursery

Herbs & Rare Seeds

(541) 928-9280

e-mail:  nichols  at gardennursery.com

THE BEST SELECTION!!! (lots of heirlooms & herb teas & Saffron crocus)


Shepard's Garden Seeds

(860) 482-3638


(decent selection, veg, roses, & some herbs)



Herb Catalog

(905) 640-6441


AWESOME!  Every herb imaginable, even Hemlock & Henbane...

- -------

BTW, the book I've been consulting this evening (I have others, but

can't find them right now) is _Blue Corn and Square Tomatoes_, an

excellent book with lots of fun anecdotes; their information is

impressively bibliographied, and seems to be pretty good as far as

this ex-botanist can tell. (by Rebecca Rupp, 1987, Storey

Communications / Garden Way, ISBN 0-88266-505-7)



From: "Mercy Neumark" <mneumark at hotmail.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:06:28 -0800

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Great source for seeds and other stuff


There is a GREAT source for seeds, seedlings and gardening stuff via the




You can request a free catalog and they have every sort of fruit, veggie,

herb and mushroom (yes, you TOO can grow your own fungus!). They have

several asian varieties of various food stuffs and about three pages of

different types of garlic.  Tres cool!


I plan on picking up a bunch of herbs (once I pay my bills down more) that I

can't get locally (they have seedlings on some of the stuff, so if you

aren't experienced in starting a garden from a seed, this will work for

you).  Of course, if you have a black thumb, that's a different story. :)


I'm waiting for a copy of my own catalog (my friend Perry had one that I was

looking over), so once its here, I can share it with my local cooks if you

are interested.  Just let me know. :)


--farmer Artemesia



Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:34:15 -0400

From: "Daniel  Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Botanical Site

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Anyone seen this site regards botanicals?


Theatrum Botanicum, A Catalog of Rare and Strange Plants




From: Heather Murray <margaret at easaraighexpunge.orgorganizethis>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: period citron and other plants

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:10:02 GMT


Mark S. Harris wrote:

>  Margaret Northwode <margaret at easaraighEXPUNGE.org> wrote:



>>>Cookingwise, In addition to learning a lot about the sort of tid-bits

>>>one would send in a care package in late period Italy, I also got to see

>>>a real citron for the first time and taste real candied citron for the

>>>first time (a fresh citron looks like a cross between a lemon and

>>>Cthulhu). Apparently Mairi Celidh found two of them _at the Giant Eagle_

>>>in Butler.


>>>I would say that we are beginning to create a specialty market, what do

>>>you think?


>>>- Jadwiga


>>Actually, for those in the right places, or who do well at container

>>gardening, there's an operation local to me who, I believe, sells citron

>>trees (and fireberry, and jujube, and paw paw, and medlar, and sour

>>cherry, and currant, and...). I'll have to go back over the little

>>catalog, if anyone's interested. We are quickly approaching fall

>>tree-planting time, so interested parties may wish to contact them soon.

>>They do ship.


>>Outside of buying some of their blueberry vinegar, and intending to buy

>>a couple of rabbiteye blueberry bushes, I've no connection to anyone there.


>>Margaret Northwode


> I would appreciate a description of this place and its contact info when

> you find it. I'd like to add it to this file in the PLANTS, HERBS AND

> SPICES section of the Florilegium:

> seeds-msg         (60K) 12/27/00    Sources for period plants and seeds.


> Who knows, maybe *I* will get adventuresome enough and have time enough,

> to try to grow some of these things.


> Stefan


Let's see - now that I've found the thing again:


Hidden Springs Nursery

170 Hidden Springs Lane

Cookeville, TN 38501

hiddenspringsnursery at hotmail.com


Organically Grown Edible Landscape - Plants for People and Wildlife


Written or email correspondence preferred, but number as published in

their catalog, is (931) 268-2592. They are most easily reached after

working hours CST or maybe a mealtime.


Plants shipped UPS, UPS 3rd day or US priority mail. Deliveries must be

accepted in peron on a weekday!shipping to your work or a neghibor is



Shipping season begins Nov. 3 and ends April 26th for the 2004-2005

planting season.


From their catalog:


"About Our Business

    "We are different from most modern businesses in that our promary

objective is not to make huge profits, but to provide plants we feel

good about and to make an honest, simple, living. Using sustainable

agriculture principles, we remain small and rely mainly on our own

labor. We work to provide quality, disease-resistant plants without the

use of chenical fgertilizers or poisonous sprays. Often our bottom line

is not cost, but unvironmental impact. We encourage you to grow no-spray

or low-spray frtuis in your yard to help cut back on world pesticide

use, the petroleum it takes to truck food across the country, and to

foster your good health.

    "All this keeps us very busy, but it does allow us to work the land

we live on and to have personal contact with many of our customers. When

you communicate with either of us, you are in touch with the same person

who propagates, grows, digs, and ships your plants. Testing what we sell

in our orchard, we try to make what we learn available to others. We

welcome questions abd obesrvation. Because we are outside so much, it is

easiest to contact us by mail or email. Your letter or answering machine

message won't get lost in the shuffle because we respond right away."


They don't have a web space that I know of, but do have a catalog. The

price on mine was $1.00, but I got it free because I picked it up at a

farmer's market where they were selling items such as homemade blueberry

vinegar, aronia jelly, rose hip syrup, and ripe persimmons and chestnuts.


It turns out that I may be wrong about the citron - what I was thinking

about was their "Flying Dragon" trifoliate orange, and the only citrus

that will stay alive this far north. However, they do carry currants,

figs, jujube, pawpaw, medlar, mulberry, quince, and persimmon, to name a

few those here might be interested in.


If you'd like more information, contact me at my email, being careful of

the spamtrap, and I'll see what I can do for you.


I don't represent them in any way, personally, outside of my experience

as a customer.


Margaret Northwode



Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:44:34 -0800

From: "Cathy Hrding" <charding at nwlink.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Medlars and lovage

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


My sister has given us a gift cert. to a local orchard nursery for the

holidays and in the catalog I found medlars.





Glymm Mere

An Tir



Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:30:00 -0500

From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period Gourds

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org


We have in the past discussed what the actual period gourds that would

have been used in the recipes for gourds and their lack of



I am uncertain whether the conclusion was reached on this list or

elsewhere - but I believe that the gourd that would have been used is

commonly known as the Chinese Bottle Gourd.


Many have lamented it's lack of availability here in the US, so I

thought I would post my finding  here. Apparently it is relatively

easy to grow! I found a source for seeds in my garden planning and if

anyone else might desire to grow them here is the link:




Serena da Riva



Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:47:23 -0600

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Carrots in Dutch paintings

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>



I have the red, orange and purple [carrots].  if anyone knows where I can get seed for the green and/or black I would like to know.  I do love growing the wierdos<g>





No black or green but white and yellow



On a side note, how about some purple tomatoes?


In old news






Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:53:58 -0600

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Carrots in Dutch paintings

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


I have not and I only know of one person who has and they had no problems

with getting their order but they moved and never planted the seeds.

I have ordered in the past from Morgan & Jackson from their iris catalog

years ago and had no problems with them. Product was good condition  

and is growing great in my FiL's garden.




-----Original Message-----

I've managed to overcome my lifelong distaste for nasty acid-y raw

tomatoes with the dark purple-to-black breeds.  Less acid, more deep

tomato flavor, o yum!  I'm preparing my garden plot now. Have you

actually done business with these people and are the reliable?  The

selection certainly seems impressive.


Meanwhile, back on topic... I may get a variety of the carrot seeds

specifically for growing and serving at a summer feast. That should

impress somebody.


Selene Colfox



Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:45:48 -0600

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] FW: Carrots

To: "Ansteorra Cooks Guild" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


I inquired about black and green carrot availability with Morgan and Jackson.

This is there reply.



-----Original Message-----

Thompson & Morgan sells purple carrots, a variety called 'Purple Haze' which

is what the varieties that are referred to as black usually are.


Green carrots are new to me.  I have never seen them in my references  

or any of the catalogs or websites I've looked at.



Susan Jellinek


Thompson & Morgan Seedsmen, Inc.

P.O. Box 1308

Jackson, NJ 08527-0308

hort at thompson-morgan.com

1-732-363-2225 ext. 3005



Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:36:53 -0800

From: "Rikke D. Giles" <rgiles at centurytel.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FW: Carrots

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


On 2006.02.16 13:45, otsisto wrote:

> I inquired about black and green carrot availability with Morgan and

> Jackson.


Check out Johnny's for unusually colored carrots.  That would be

www.johnnyseeds.com.  They have orange, red, yellow, white and

purple/black.  I've never seen a green.  That doesn't mean they

aren't out there, but, I am an organic farmer (my other day job) and

I try and keep up on these things.


They are really making strides with the new (old) colors. The taste

and texture of these new varieties has improved immeasurably over the

ones which were sold only a few years ago.  None of these are

directly related to the medieval carrots, as they are all new

hybrids from the orange carrot.  They might have strains of the wild

(white or purple) carrot mixed back in.


Aelianora de Wintringham

A&S Champion, Barony of Dragon's Laire

Kingdom of An Tir



Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 20:36:36 -0500

From: "Radei Drchevich" <radei at moscowmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FW: Carrots

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


"Purple Dragon" is available from Wal-Mart seeds.





Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:48:07 -0600

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Carrots in Dutch paintings

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Sorry, I had Morgan & Jackson on the brain for some reason. I was  

Meaning Thompson & Morgan.




-----Original Message-----

I have never seen a catalog from Morgan & Jackson that was not either  

Iris or Roses.  Do they sell anything else??






Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 11:13:17 -0500

From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bottle gourds (european squashes)

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


On 3/11/06, henna <hennar at gmail.com> wrote:

> I remember somebody on this list growing bottle gourds for eating. I

> want to grow a few plants this year.

> Does anybody know where I can find which varieties are edible? I've

> found a distributor of various pumpkin & bottle gourd seeds, but he

> markets his bottle gourds as decorative and doesn't say anything about

> edibility.


> Finne


This is the website that I have found that has the seeds for the

edible bottle gourd - still widely eaten in Asian cultures.




I do not know if there is a difference between these and the ones that

your source might sell.


Serena da Riva



Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:22:28 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seeds for period vegetables

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


Patrick Levesque wrote:

> I'd like to know if you can recommend any reliable source for period

> vegetable seeds (Montreal is a 5B rusticity area, so I can't grow everything

> over here, but most of the basic stuff should be all right).


> As always, organic produce and local distributors are preferred, but I'm not

> too sure I'll have a lot of options in this situation.


> Petru


You might start here.


Merchants and Purveyors of

Heirloom Seeds

The website is The Heirloom Vegetable

Gardener's Assistant





Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:41:25 -0400

From: Jane Boyko <jboyko at magma.ca>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seeds for period vegetables

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


Ritchies in Ottawa carries heirloom seeds but they do not indicate the

earliest time from.  I picked up some very interesting radish

varieties.  The company is called OSC



As I am experimenting with

container gardening, am an archivist I thought that heirloom vegies

would be a fun experiment.  Another company that sells heirloom products

(herbs etc) is called Richters in Woodbridge, Ontario. While I don't

recommend ordering from them directly for yourself (I have horror

stories from dealers and private clients) you can possibly order through

your local nursery if they order from this company.  I remember seeing

an heirloom rose bush which they indicated had it roots in the middle

ages (okay, please forgive the pun).  I believe it was dated to the mid

1500's.  http://www.richters.ca/  You can order a catalogue and it will

give you lots of terrific ideas.  My makes good dreamtime reading.




<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org