saffron-msg - 1/8/08
Types of saffron. period uses.
NOTE: See also these files: saffron-art, spices-msg, garlic-msg, seeds-msg, herbs-msg, capers-msg, p-herbals-msg, rue-msg, spice-storage-msg, spice-mixes-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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To: Mark S. Harris
From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at bga.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:21:36 -0600
Subject: Re: Glasses
At 11:58 PM 1/25/97 -0600, you wrote:
>My first thought when I saw your comments on saffron was "Why
>would someone need eye protection from saffron?". As in safety
>goggles. But I imagine you are talking about doing something
>minute with the saffron. Do you have seperate out the tiny
>blossums from something else?
>
> Stefan li Rous
No, it appears that bulk saffron can cause an allergic reaction. The rest
of the section said:
"If a man do but open and ransack a bag of one hundredweight or two
hundredweight, as merchants do when they buy it, it will strike such an air
into their heads which deal withal that for a time they shall be giddy and
sick (I mean for two or three hours' space), their noses and eyes in like
sort will yeild such plenty of rheumatic water that they shall be the
better for it long after, especially their eyesight, which is wonderfully
clarified by this means; howbeit, some merchants, not liking of this
physic, muffle themselves as women do when they ride and put on spectacles
set in leather, which doth in some measure (but not for altogether) put by
the force thereof."
-Tivar
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy M Renfrow)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: 29 Jan 97 16:16:33 GMT
markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote:
> > 7 T of Saffron is of course 7 Threads of real Saffron.
> > I don't remember the conversion to artificial saffron.
> >
> > Steveg
>
> Huh??? There is artificial saffron? The real stuff is all I've ever
> seen. You know the stuff that usually is in an envelope in the standard
> sized jar and you get a few grams of instead of ounces.
>
> Perhaps the recipe should specify real or artificial saffron then.
> Although I guess if you know that both types exist than you would
> know which one is meant.
>
> So, does anyone have the standard conversion for this, if such a
> standard exists? This still doesn't settle the question of how
> many threads of saffron to use, although I'll probably try 7
> threads sometime.
>
> Stefan
> --
> Ld. Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Ansteorra
Hello! Yes, there is an "artificial", or rather a "substitute" saffron -
the safflower, Carthamus tinctorius, was used in period as an adulterant
for Crocus sativus. It gives the same color, but no flavor, & is
available for about $2.00 per ounce. It is also called Mexican Saffron.
BTW, 7 Tablespoons is not an unreasonable amount for a period recipe - the
14th century Le Menagier de Paris calls for the use of an ounce of saffron
for a dinner party of 40 people. In 1597 Gerard wrote "common or best
knowne Saffron groweth plentifully in Cambridge-shire, Saffron-Waldon, and
other places thereabout, as corne in the fields."
Hope this helps!
Cindy Renfrow
renfrow at skylands.net
http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/
From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:53:06 -0700
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
The term "artificial saffron" struck me as weird too.
There are two types of saffron that I am aware of: true saffron, which
is very expensive in comparison with most other imported spices, and
"American" saffron, which is fairly cheap by comparison. Both are "real"
saffron (coming from a crocus plant) but the American variety is grown in
larger quantity, and the plant yields more saffron threads than the
imported variety.
Morgan the Unknown
From: harper at tribeca.ios.com.REMOVE.THIS.TO.REPLY (Robin Carroll-Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:43:48 GMT
"Arthur A. Simon, Jr." <aasimon at phoenix.net> wrote:
>Alf Christophersen wrote:
>>
>> markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote:
>>
>> >Huh??? There is artificial saffron? The real stuff is all I've ever
>> >seen. You know the stuff that usually is in an envelope in the standard
>> >sized jar and you get a few grams of instead of ounces.
>Try about 100 milligrams (1/10 of a gram).
>>
>> Saffron is very often adulterated. Even buying it as threads isn't
>> safe. It can be the more poisonnous autumn crocus which has been used
>> several times due to a report I read once.
>Interesting. The references I have state that the crocus that produces
>saffron *is* the autumn-blooming "crocus officinalis". I am interested
>also in the "poisonous" nature of saffron. I would guess that eating
>crocus bulbs would certainly disagree with one, sooner or later, but
>the stamens?
According to _The Herb Book_ by John Lust, saffron, commonly known as
autumn crocus or Spanish saffron, comes from the stigmas of crocus
sativus. (Safflower, AKA American saffron or false saffron, is
carthamus tinctorius.) Mr. Lust goes on to say that saffron contains
a poison that acts on the kidneys and central nervous system. "10 to
12 grams is a fatal dose for human beings."
>Art, curious.
Harper % at % at % Robin Carroll-Mann
harper at tribeca.ios.com
From: alf.christophersen at basalmed.uio.no (Alf Christophersen)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:59:38 GMT
Organization: Dep. of Nutrition, University of Oslo
jack at purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin) wrote:
>"Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca> writes:
>> There are two types of saffron that I am aware of: true saffron, which
>> is very expensive in comparison with most other imported spices, and
>> "American" saffron, which is fairly cheap by comparison. Both are "real"
>> saffron (coming from a crocus plant) but the American variety is grown in
>> larger quantity, and the plant yields more saffron threads than the
>> imported variety.
>
>On my last visit to Turkey I bought a whole mass of saffron (about half a
>pound, I think) at a remarkably low price compared with the Spanish stuff.
>Was this likely to have been the "American" variety you're talking about?
More likely the Persian Saffron as Mrs. Grieve call it. It was once
tried to be introduced to Britain because it was much cheaper to grow
and harvest, (a wild saffron variety), but the taste was inferior, so
the market seemed to prefer the spanish variety. Btw. Mrs. Grieve says
that Saffron Walden in UK has its name derived from the fact that they
did grow saffron (Crocus sativa) in Britain for commercial purpose.
Alf Christophersen
alf.christophersen at basalmed.uio.no
From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:57:25 -0700
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
American Saffron is a product of the safflower plant. I am not a botanist,
so its relationship to the crocus (Spanish saffron) is unclear to me. I
soak my saffron in a little lemon juice and hot water for about half an
hour. The taste is not strong. I have used both
American and Spanish varieties: I don't find a huge difference. A friend
of mine (who was a botanist) said that the two types are very similar
botanically. But I think it may be a cultural thing, and that modern North
American taste-buds require more "oomph" to notice subtler variations.
Morgan the Unknown
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:21:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: sca-cooks spices -Reply
At 10:30 AM 4/10/97 -0500, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>Apparently there are different saffrons available today. This came
>up on the Rialto recently when someone gave a recipe that used 7
>tablespoons of saffron. Since I only knew of the Spanish saffron
>this seemed like a small fortune to me. Although we never got an
>answer from the original poster, some thought they must have been
>speaking of substitute safron.
I think in this case there may be an additional factor. The recipe (in
answer to my post for a recipe for Pickled lemons on rec.food.historic,
which carried over to rec.org.sca) was egyptian, and I fully believe that
the pickling juice was meant to be used and re-used, and the pickled lemons
(which were actually fermented lemons) were to be used very sparingly.
Middle Eastern cultures use saffron so frequently in their cooking that they
must have developed an economical source for it. Thus TBSP of saffrom may
not be out of the question in this context. And, the original autor admitted she may have made a mistake.
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (Nancy Wederstrandt)
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:18:25 -0600
Subject: sca-cooks Re:substitutes for saffron
Tumeric is often used as a cheap coloring agent to replace saffron. While
the taste is nothing like saffron, it makes things yellow. (sometimes more
than you want) You can die eggs with tumeric. It is a root that is dried
and then ground. The plant looks similar to a ginger or cardamon plant. It
is used in eastern (indian) cooking and in the west it is used in mustard
and pickles, alot.
Safflower is probably the closest of the substitutes. it is easy to grow
and easy to save. I've grown saffron and safflower in Ansteorra with
medium and good results, respectively. Probably you could mix the two and
get a large quantity with a little aroma of saffron.
On a side note. buddhist monks used saffron to dye the robes they
wear. The yellow from saffron is water soluable and the red is extracted
through alcohol. Offical documents used to be tied up with thin ribbons of
saffron dyed red.... hence the term "red tape" It's from saffron ribbons.
Clare R. St. John
From: dragon7777 at juno.com (Susan A Allen)
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:22:28 -0700
Subject: Re: sca-cooks spices -Reply
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:30:41 -0500 JANINE BRANNON
<janineb at smtpgw.mis.ssh.edu> writes:
>How about tumeric? It would give the color you need - but flavor?
>Is tumeric period?
Saffron flowers are used (in mexican cooking) to give the saffron color,
tumeric is more greenish and very bitter if too much is used.
Susan
From: James and/or Nancy Gilly <KatieMorag at worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:15:30 +0000
Subject: SC - Re: spices
At 03:47 10-4-97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
>Derdriu asks:
>
>> And, while we have spices and plants of the
>>same name today as they did then, which ones are different? Are there any
>>beyond Cinnamon/cassia and Cinnamon/ceylon, which, while sharing a name,
>>are quite different in flavor?
>
>Apparently there are different saffrons available today. This came
>up on the Rialto recently when someone gave a recipe that used 7
>tablespoons of saffron. Since I only knew of the Spanish saffron
>this seemed like a small fortune to me. Although we never got an
>answer from the original poster, some thought they must have been
>speaking of substitute safron. For instance:
>-----
>Yes, there is an "artificial", or rather a "substitute" saffron -
>the safflower, Carthamus tinctorius, was used in period as an adulterant
>for Crocus sativus. It gives the same color, but no flavor, & is
>available for about $2.00 per ounce. It is also called Mexican Saffron.
> Cindy Renfrow
>-----
>
>Any other examples?
>
> Stefan li Rous
> markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Quoting from the Penzeys catalogue (Summer 1996 - I know I have a more
recent one, but gods only know where it is):
"Kashmir saffron has long been known to saffron lovers as the world's
premiere saffron, usually unavailable in this country. Long, moist, dark
red strands. Superior quality. Spanish saffron is consistently good and
available. 10% yellow threads. Spanish is usually less expensive than
Kashmir, but with weather troubles the price has risen, making Kashmir a
much better buy."
Their prices then were:
Kashmir: $6.95/1 g, $36.95/.25 oz
Spanish: $5.95/1 g, $31.95/.25 oz
Incidentally, they also offer both cassia (Chinese, Sumatran, or Vietnamese
- - the latter at approximately double the cost of the other two) and cinnamon.
Slainte -
Alasdair mac Iain
- -----------------------------
James and/or Nancy Gilly
katiemorag at worldnet.att.net
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:19:58 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - coloring cheese?
ND Wederstrandt wrote:
>
> I didn't think so either... I mean I knew they colored cheese but didn't
> know everything they used... when I pulled the sope recipe this morning
> from Good Huswife's Jewel(1596) I saw the note on a different page stuck in
> the middle of how to preserve apples and what makes a good pig. It makes
> sense since vast quantities of saffron were grown around Saffron-on-Waldon
> (hence the name) I make soft cheese so next time I make some I'm going to
> try it. I haven't tried marigolds either but will try a batch with that as
> coloring. Does anyone else know what coloring agents were used?
>
> Clare St. John
Well, various green leaves, primarily sage and parsley, are known to
have added both flavor and color to soft cheeses eaten fairly fresh.
This may have arisen as a side effect of using herbs to curdle the milk
(sage and nettle tops seem to be the standard). Markham (Again! Oy!
[Slaps forehead]) calls for saffron to be added to the peculiar mixture
he says should be used to "run" your milk into curds. Another thing to
consider is that for aged cheeses, they tend to become fairly
yellowish-brown as they become drier, with the ratio of fat to total
mass becoming higher.
Just a side note on the whole Saffron Waldon issue. I remember reading
somewhere that the idea of growing saffron crocuses in the area was
something of a failed experiment. It was evidently done for a time, but
there is some question as to how much impact the practice had on the
trade in a spice that remained consistently one of the more expensive
ones. One possibility has to do with fluctuating weather across Europe,
and another has to do with the cost of labor required to turn crocuses
into saffron.
That, of course, has little to do with the point you were making... .
Adamantius
Date: 4 Aug 1997 12:40:00 -0700
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: SC - saffron substitute was-Adv
right and I am not familiar enough with saffron to know what the lack of
it will do to the recipe's flavor.
I don't claim to be particularly experienced, and I haven't cooked much with
saffron but:
1) most recipes don't seem to call for much (a couple or few threads), so you
might be able to swing just spring for a single package of the stuff at some
place like "Trader Joes" that has good groceries for less than bigger name
chains.
2) my herb books say that calendula or marigold is a substitute, though I
think this may just duplicate the nice color, I don't know if the flavors are
comparable?
- -brid
Date: 5 Aug 1997 08:39:19 -0700
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - saffron substitute
I just got a beautiful book called "Brother Cadfael's Garden" based on the
mystery novels with the 12th Century monastic main character. It appears to
be very good at researching the herbs and such used in this series of novels
and cross referencing them against period sources. So far it has one of the
most complete and accesible encyclopedias of herbs with pictures that I have
found.
Of course I forgot to bring it to work with me to get the names right, but
under saffron it had
1) "true" saffron (the really expensive stuff)
2) another crocus used as a substitute and
3) "false" saffron, which wasn't a crocus and I didn't recognize the scientific name.
- -brid
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:47:40 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - saffron substitute
Hi, Katerine here. Juana Teresa asks whether saffron that is identified as
"Spanish" is better than ordinary. Here's the best answer I can give.
In modern use, saffron is the stamens of a crocus (I believe that the
alternative crocus that can be used isn't any more, but I may be wrong).
Safflower stamens are sometimes used as a substitute, and very occasionally
sold under the name "saffron". The latter is a variety of fraud.
"Spanish saffron" should be crocus stamens that were grown and harvested
in Spain. While the Spanish climate seems to be good for saffron, I don't
know that it's enough better than others to produce a noticeably different
spice.
It shouldn't be safflower -- but nothing labeled "saffron" should, and some
things are. People who will lie about what it is, will also lie about
what variety of what it is.
A better protection than the label is knowing the provider. (Once you've
worked with saffron for a while, you can tell it from safflower anyhow.)
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:21:22 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - question on grades of saffron (was re: advice)
Hi, Katerine here. Kat asks how to tell saffron from safflower. The
simple answer is that the threads don't really look alike; but you need
to be used to looking at saffron threads to tell the difference.
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 17:55:28 -0400
From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - question on grades of saffron (was re: advice)
Terry Nutter wrote:
> Hi, Katerine here. Kat asks how to tell saffron from safflower. The
> simple answer is that the threads don't really look alike; but you need
> to be used to looking at saffron threads to tell the difference.
There is an explanation about the brands and where they come from at
http://www.saffron.com/facts/saffron/
I found this page showing some basic facts about saffron. It is from a
commercial source, so may be slanted in presentation. The facts seem
reasonable from my lay observation.
http://www.babysaffron.com/gis.htm
fra niccolo
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:50:16 -0400
From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - Saffron links, a plethora
I promise, this is the last of the links I'm sending. I got excited
about finding out about this subject. I think I'm off to the University
library for some hard copy references to do my own work.
http://www.frontierherb.com/spices/notes/spices.notes.no6.html
http://www.veg.org/veg/Orgs/VegSocUK/Recipes/saffron.html
http://www-bus.tp.ac.sg/salien.htm
http://www.reidgroup.com/~dmg/faqs/spices/node50.html (check out what
Mexican saffron is!!! "...the flower of Carthamus tinctorius L. which
is an annual herb grown in the temperate regions of Central MÈxico. Its
quality is quite inferior to real saffron but it has similar coloring
properties. It is far cheaper. )
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/saffron1.html
niccolo
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:13:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Advice, please!
Saffron is hard to find in a trustworthy source: I've found that Indian
saffron is of uneven quality, Mexican saffron is reliably of low quality,
and Spanish saffron is usually pretty good.