spice-mixes-msg – 12/1/07
Period spice mixtures. Poudre Forte, Poudre Douce, Spice Poudre.
NOTE: See also the files: spices-msg, cinnamon-msg, herbs-msg, merch-spices-msg, saffron-art, saffron-msg, capers-msg, lavender-msg, herb-uses-msg.
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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:00:31 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: SC poudre forte Re: SC - Spice cabinet-what do we stock?
HI all from Anne-Marie:
we are asked:
> For those us who are new, what does go into poudre forte?
Mine is a mix of my own devising, according to spices mentioned in the
poudre fortes and spice mixes of le menagier (1390s Paris), Chiquart (1420
Savoy) and Taillevent (14th century French).
Anne-Maries Poudre Forte...
1 1/2 T ground ginger
1/2 tsp grains of paradise, ground with a mortar and pestle
1 T ground cinnamon
1/2 tsp ground clove
1/.2 tsp fresh ground black pepper
combine and store in an airtight container, away from heat and light.
Its a very spicy mix...great in mushroom pasties, paste en pot du mouton,
wardens in syrop, medieval pasta dishes, etc.
by the way, you can mailorder this stuff ready made from Worldspice here in
Seattle at hill at worldspice.com
I'm famous! :)
- --AM
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:16:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Poudre Forte and Poudre Douce
poudre douce is a "sweet powder" and is usually a mix of sweet spices such
as sugar, cinnamon, and ginger.
elaina
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:01:07 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Poudre Forte and Poudre Douce
Micaylah,
Redon, Odile. Sabban, Francoise. & Serventi, Silvano. The Medieval
Kitchen, Recipes from France and Italy. Translated, Edward
Schneider, U of Chicago Press, Chicago & London, 1998.
ISBN 0 226 70684 2.
Fine Spice Mixture
Take an onza of pepper and one of cinnamon and one of ginger, and half a
quarter [onza] of cloves and a quarter of saffron. Fr 40. [from the
Venic region but not necessarily from Venice]
2 rounded tablespoons freshly ground black pepper [16 g]
2 rounded tablespoons ground cinnamon [16 g]
2 rounded tablespoons ground ginger [16 g]
1 1/2 tablespoons saffron threads, loosely measured, crushed to a powder
in a mortar or with your fingers [4 g]
3/4 teaspoon ground cloves [2 g]
{Try this, but 1 1/2 T. doesn't equal a quarter of 2 T. in my math}
Sweet Spice Mixture
The best sweet spices you can make are good for lamprey in pastry and for
other good freshwater fish cooked in a crust, and to make good brodetto
and good sauces. Take a quarter of cloves and an onza of good ginger,
and take an onza of fine cinnamon, and take the same quantity of leaf;
and pound all these spices together as you like; if you want to make
more, use the ingredients in the same proportions; this is wonderfully
good. [Fr 40] They aren't sure that 'leaf' means bay leaf,
but says use that until the Indian mint leaf related to patchouli is
investigated.
2 rounded tablespoons ground ginger [16 g]
2 rounded tablespoons ground cinnamon [16 g]
2 heaping tablespoons powdered bay leaves, or dried, ground to a powder
in a spice grinder to yield 2 heaping tablespoons [16 g]
1 1/2 teaspoons ground cloves
Strong Black Spice Mixture
Black strong spices to make sauces: take half a quarter of cloves and two
onze of pepper, and take the same amount of lon pepper and two nutmegs;
this will serve for all spices. [Fr 40]
1/4 Cup freshly ground black pepper [30 g]
1/4 cup ground lon pepper (or additional black pepper) [30 g]
1/4 teaspoon ground cloves
1 whole nutmeg, grated
8. Libro di Cucina del Secolo XIV
Fr
Scully, Terence & D. Eleanor. Early French Cookery. U. of Michigan,
1995.
Scully equates fine powder with sweet powder, and says it contains
ginger, cinnamon, cloves, and grains of paradise. Their redaction is
from the Menagier, and includes sugar. The quantities are not the same,
from ms to ms. Experiment with your own version, he says.
3 tsp ground ginger
1 1/2 tbsp cinnamon
1 tsp grains of paradise
1 tsp ground cloves
2 tbsp sugar
Platina discusses spices one by one; no combination. It seems to me I
have seen nutmeg in a mixture, but that may be because I think of it as
sweet, and like it best. I may have added it arbitrarily, in place of
pepper or grains.
Allison
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 21:38:05 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pepperer's Guild
Susan Browning wrote:
> Greetings the list! My name is Elenor d'Aubrecicourt. I have been lurking
> on the list for about a year now. I was looking at the Pepperer's Guild
> site, and have a question about the poudre forte. Actually, I have
> questions about forte and dolce. What the different members of the list use
> for forte and dolce? Does everybody make their own? Or would the PG's
> poudre be a good choice? Many thanks.
The PG's might be an adequate choice, depending on how fresh it is. It struck
me as having an awful lot of ingredients, which would have the advantage of
making for a more consistent-seeming product from batch to batch if one
ingredient was unavailable, which would be more of a problem is the powder
called for, say, three or four spices. I seem to recall this one called for
maybe seven or eight spices.
As far as I know, we don't really know what was in most of the medieval
pre-mixed spice powders, except for Hippocras powder (which I've occasionally
used quite successfully in recipes calling for powder forte, BTW), and a fine
spice powder recipe in Le Menagier de Paris. What we really have to go on,
apart from a general knowledge of what Eastern spices were imported and used
in the cookery of the medieval European nobs, is that powder forte should be,
well, forte (strong), while powder douce should be douce (sweet), and powder
blanche should be white, etc. Fine spice powder is, of course, fine ; ).
So, we end up with the idea that, say, cloves, cinnamon, and maybe some nutmeg
would be good in a powder douce, while pepper, galingale, grains of paradise,
and cubeb might make a good powder forte. Since there are a limited number of
things that would make a whitish combination, we assume things like Columbine
ginger and refined sugar might be in blanche powder... .
I believe you do find some recipes for some of these powders in the very tail
end of period, at which point the mixtures are largely obsolete anyway, and
there's no guarantee that what is in them reflects closely what was in them
in earlier centuries.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:04:20 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Pepperer's Guild
Hi all from Anne-Marie
Elenor asks us: What the different members of the list use
> for forte and dolce? Does everybody make their own? Or would the PG's
> poudre be a good choice?
Just like in the real middle ages :) many of us have our own special
mixture of spices. Mine uses cinnamon, black pepper, clove, nutmeg and
grains of paradise, as dictated in le Menagier and other French sources.
Conveniently, Worldspice borrowed my recipe and sells it already mixed up.
You can check them out at www.worldspice.com...they do mail order. Look for
"Anne-Marie's Poudre Forte"! :D
- --AM, who has something named after. A life long ambition realized!
Madrone/ An Tir
Seattle/WA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:11:28 EST
From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain)
Subject: Re: SC - Still Looking for Powder Douce
<mmartines at brighthorizons.com> writes:
>I posted a question earlier this week asking what the ingredients in
>the spice mixture powder douce are and haven't got any answers yet.
>
>Morgan MacBride
Here are the references that I found in my collection.
powder douce: 2 t sugar, 3/8 t cinnamon, 3/8 t ginger
powder douce: 1 t sugar, 1/4 t mace, 1/4 t cinnamon
power douce (by our interpretation, 4 parts sugar to 2 of cinnamon to 1
of ginger)
³powder douce²: 2 t sugar, 2 t cinnamon
powder douce: 2 t sugar, 1 t cinnamon, 1/2 t ginger
powder douce (2 parts ground nutmeg, 1 pt. ground fennel seed, and 1 pt.
ground anise.)
powder douce: 2 t sugar, 1 t cinnamon, 1/2 t ginger
Powder douce: 1 cup sugar, 1 tsp. ground cloves, 2 tsp. ground cinnamon,
2 tsp. ground ginger, 1 Tbs. ground cubebs (opt.), 2 tsp. ground galingal
(opt.), 1 Tbs. grains of Paradise (opt.)
Korrin S. DaArdain
Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr
Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:53:47 +1100
From: "Phillippa Venn-Brown" <p.vbrown at tsc.nsw.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Still Looking for Powder Douce
From my research Powdre Douce can be a bit of a movable feast. It is a
mixture of ground sweet spices, usually about 2 parts cinnamon:1 part
nutmeg: 1/2 part ground cloves (depending on your taste): 1 part ground
sugar. It can or not contain 1 part ground ginger/galangale. I tend to use
this mixture a lot (mundanely and in SCA cooking) so make it to fill a
1quart preserving jar. Kept air tight the flavours meld and improve with
age. Sometimes I decant it into small jars and add them to Christmas
hampers for my cooking friends.
Powdre Forte is a similar blend but has pepper and mace replacing the sugar
and slightly more ginger.
As I say, these amounts are personal preferences which I have found work
well but some recipes in Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks and Curye on
English specify the mixtures and amounts for the powdres Douce and Forte.
Filippa Ginevra
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:42:55 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Still Looking for Powder Douce
This answer certainly can't help with last Saturday, but last night I
used a recipe from Medieval Kitchen, that gave a reference and recipe for
powder douce as 2 rounded T. ground ginger, same of cinnamon, 2 heaping
T. powdered bay leaves (that's a fun job, I don't think!) ground to a
powder, 1 1/2 t. ground cloves. I made a proportionately smaller amount,
and also added sugar to mine.
Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:30:50 -0700
From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net>
Subject: SC - Spice quantities for Helen
My recipe for strong powder (poudre forte) calls for 1/8 oz cloves, 2 oz
pepper, 2 oz long pepper, and 2 nutmegs (about 1/3 to 1/2 oz). My recipe for
sweet powder (poudre douce) calls for 1/4 oz cloves, 1 oz ginger, 1 oz
cinnamon, and 1 oz malabathron (substitute bay leaves and a little more
cinnamon, or go to the Indian store and ask for "tejpat"). My recipe for
fine powder (poudre fine) calls for 1 1/16 oz ginger, 1/4 oz cinnamon, 1/8
oz cloves, 1/8 oz cloves, 1/8 oz grains of paradise, and 1/4 oz lump sugar.
However, I strongly suspect that the recipes were quite variable, so you can
adjust them to what is available. Just make sure that strong spices like
cloves and pepper predominate in the strong powder, and sweet spices like
ginger and cinnamon in the sweet powder. The grains and galingale should be
enough to give an exotic touch; substitute grains of paradise for some of
the pepper, and galingale for some of the ginger.
Francesco Sirene
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:00:01 -0700
From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Spice quantities for Helen
>This is interesting. Do you have a period reference which shows long
>pepper and black pepper being used in the same resipe? Thanks in advance.
>
>Ras
Here you are, My Lord.
LXXV. SPECIE NEGRE E FORTE PER ASSAY SAVORE.
Specie negre e forte per fare savore; toy mezo quarto de garofali e do
onze de pevere e toy arquanto pevere longo e do noce moscate e fa de tute
specie.
LXXV. A STRONG BLACK SPICE FOR MANY [?] SAUCES.
A black strong for making sauces; take an eighth of an ounce of cloves,
two ounces each of pepper and [?] long pepper, and two nutmegs, and make
them all into spice. [trans. DD -- my Italian is not strong, but I assume
that "arquanto" means something to the effect of "the same quantity"]
Ludovico Frati, ed., Libro di Cucina del Secolo XIV, Livorno: Raffaello
Giusti, Editore, 1899, p. 40. [a Venetian cookbook of the 14th century]
Francesco Sirene
David Dendy / ddendy at silk.net
partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene at silk.net
Visit our Website at http://www.silk.net/sirene/
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:04:44 -0700
From: swbro at mail.telis.org
Subject: RE: SC - SPICES
>cclark at vicon.net said:
>
>Snip
>
> POUDER-FORTE: I don't know that there is any period recipe
> for this,
>Snip
The Viander de Tallievant sp)lists proportions of spices for Pouder-Forte,
Pouder Douce and Spice Pouder. I tried his mixture for Pouder-Forte, it was
very like pumpkin pie spice, but with a distinct after bite from the warmer
spices. Quite good.
Eleanor d'Aubrecicourt
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:26:42 -0400From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>Subject: Re: SC - Powder DouceSusan P Laing wrote:> What is the main difference between Powder forte & Powder douce? Is Powder> douce required in many period recipes??Umm, not to sound flippant, because I'm not (at least not now), butpowder douce is made from sweet spices and powder forte is made fromstrong spices. I've seen recipes for each in which some spices appear in both.Without recipes in front of me, and without caffeine singing through myveins (I like to do e-mail before everyone else wakes up) I can saytypical recipes might include cloves and cinnamon, possibly mace forpowder douce, and pepper, nutmeg, galingale, grains of paradise, etc.,for powder forte.I'd say that in the medieval English corpus of recipes there are atleast as many recipes calling for specific spices, such as poudre pepir,clowes, etc., as for powder douce, powder forte, and some others such asblanche powder, and fine powder. In other cases a recipe will simplycall for powder of sweet spices or strong spices.My suspicion is that while there are certainly formulae for producingthe mixes you mention, they might be regarded as something of aconvenience item, with some cooks not deigning to use them, just as mostIndian cooks wouldn't stoop to using curry powder. On the other hand,for large feast situations (in the middle ages, that is, not for ourstuff, necessarily) it might have been seen as eminently practical toeither purchase such mixtures in bulk or or make them up in bulk.I recall an occasion where I happened to have a fair amount, perhapsfour ounces, of leftover hippocras powder which I used to fill one ofthose industrial-strength flour-duster/salt-shaker thingies. The mixwent really well in the recipes calling for powder forte. Off the top ofmy head I think it contained pepper, grains of paradise, nutmeg,galingale, and cinnamon, and came from the hippocras recipe in LeMenagier de Paris.Adamantius
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:56:59 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Duke's powder (was Re: SC - saffron)
And it came to pass on 31 Mar 00,, that Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
> > This is his comment at the end of a recipe for "Duke's powder", a spice
> > mixture:
>
> Whoa... is this the same Duke's Powder that Le Menagier mentions as
> pre-sweetened hippocras spice?
>
> Adamantius
I don't know. Possibly. It certainly contains sugar, and appears just
after de Nola's recipe for a hippocras spice mixture. I'm translating the
1529 edition of de Nola, BTW. There is a slightly different version of this
mixture in the 1525 edition, plus a second recipe which does not appear
in the 1529. Here are the recipes:
Source: Roberto de Nola, _Libro de Cozina_ (Spanish, 1525)
Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)
POLUORA DE DUQUE -- Duke's Powder
Cinnamon, half an ounce; ginger, half an ounce; cloves, one eighth;
sugar, one pound; all this well ground and strained through a hair sieve
so that it should be quite delicate and subtle, or at least just like the
one for the sauces.
POLUORA DE DUQUE DE OTRA MANERA -- Duke's Powder in
another manner
White ginger, two ounces; galangal, one eighth of an ounce; cinnamon,
one ounce; long pepper, one ounce; grains of paradise, one ounce;
nutmeg, one ounce; fine sugar, one pound; all this should be well
ground and strained through a delicate hair sieve.
[The paragraph on weighing spices follows]
Source: Ruperto de Nola, _Libro de Guisados_ (Spanish, 1529)
Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)
POLVORA DE DUQUE - Duke's Powder
Half an ounce of cinnamon; an eighth of cloves; and for the lords
cast in nothing but cinnamon, and a pound of sugar; if you wish to make
it sharp in flavor and [good] for pains in the stomach, cast in a little
ginger.
And the weights of the spices in the apothecary shops are in this
manner: one pound is twelve ounces; one ounce, eight drachmas; one
drachma, three scruples: another way that you can more clearly
understand this: a drachma weights three dineros; a scruple is the
weight of one dinero; and a scruple is twenty grains of wheat.
- - - -
How do those compare to the Menagier's recipe? Or doesn't he give
one? (I have a copy somewhere, but don't want to hunt through an
unindexed book before I finish my second cup of coffee.)
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:23:08 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: Duke's powder (was Re: SC - saffron)
Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
> How do those compare to the Menagier's recipe? Or doesn't he give one? (I have
> a copy somewhere, but don't want to hunt through an unindexed book before I
> finish my second cup of coffee.)
Well, here's Le Menagier's recipe, probably the Powers translation,
courtesy of His Grace Cariadoc:
> Hippocras
>
> Goodman p. 299/28
>
> To make powdered hippocras, take a quarter of very fine cinnamon selected by