salads-msg – 1/31/08
Period salads. lettuce, greens. Recipes.
NOTE: See also these files: herbs-msg, cook-flowers-msg, herbs-cooking-msg, vegetables-msg, vinegar-msg, cooking-oils-msg, lettuce-msg, greens-msg, olives-msg, celery-msg.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)
Subject: Re: Truth and Beauty
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 14:07:23 GMT
ck290 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Chandra L. Morgan-Henley) writes:
|> dip recipes is that the people who ate plain raw vegetables
|> were most likely to be peasants, who ate whatever they had
|> available to eat and didn't take time out for fancy sauces
|> when crunching on a turnip for lunch during a long day in the
Well, Dear Poster of Silly Notes, I'm going to disagree politely.
(Would you like some salt for that turnip, my dear?)
Background: I was born in Scotland, my grandmother was "in service" in
a hotel in her youth, and my grandfather was a "scaffie" - a collector
of garbage for the city of Dundee. Great aunts, etc, were still
involved in farming. In short, I come from a modern peasant background.
(I'll conceed the modernity.)
My grandparents believed that raw vegetables, specifically root veg
like carrots, and turnips were actively harmful. We ate lots of root
veg, frequently in soups or stews. We did eat some salad in summer.
The extant medieval herbals and the like also held that raw vegetables
were harmful, "cold and wet" in the doctrine of humours.
So there's some evidence of a tradition in two points of at least some
people not eating raw turnip. The times in between are reasonably
documented too, and no where is the eating of much raw veg recorded.
Harry, a peasant by birth.
--
Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
A former member of a religious para military organization
From: ctallan at epas.utoronto.ca (Cheryl Tallan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: raw vegetables
Date: 12 Oct 1993 14:32:18 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:
>Ther has been a discussin going on whether the average peasant ever
>ate raw food. Here's my contribution:
As the "raw food" thread was started by me, I think I should clarify
matters.
Certainly medieval people ate raw vegetables. I would recommend that
anyone doubting this read Platina's _On Honest Indulgence_ (Venice,
1475) or the Salad recipe in _The Form of Curye_ (England, late 14th
century). The latter shows up in almost all of the modern "medieval" cookbooks.
I merely voiced doubts about the presence of "crudites" (ie. those
carrot and celery sticks) at noble feasts. Here in the SCA, they
appear at almost every feast (they seem to be second only to honey
butter in popularity) whereas one almost never sees a salad (never
mind one based on a medieval recipe, even though one is readily available).
Of course, I could start a whole new thread on the ever-present honey
butter. Does anyone know what leads folk to believe that this is
medieval. A friend and I were speculating some time ago that if
medieval nobles had really wanted to sweeten their butter for a feast
(and honey butter most often appears in a feast context) they would
more likely have used the then more expensive sugar...
David/Thomas
tallan at flis.utoronto.ca
From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Veggies
Date: 7 Oct 1993 21:37:11 GMT
Organization: The Rialto
Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
David Tallan writes,
>Yet. personally, I find a lack in cookbooks as a strong piece of
>evidence that medieval people *did not eat* carrot and celery sticks!
>For I cannot imagine that they could have eaten them for many
>generations with stumbling across the concept of "dip", much as they
>loved sauces. And a "dip" recipe they WOULD have written down and put
>with the sauces. The lack of such a trace is, to me, a pretty strong
>indication that, however they ate their vegetables, it probably wasn't
>as crudites.
(Assuming that we are talking about the upper classes:)
I'd agree except for one point. We know, from lots of evidence, that
they ate many salads. But the only surviving recipes I am aware
of that mention salad dressing call for vinegar and oil (and don't treat
them as constituting a separate "dressing", but just as shaken over the
salad).
Then again: fresh vegetables and fruits were only available in season.
While they aren't as "sexy" as something like beef, they are, in their
own way, more special. I suspect that they ate them pretty plainly --
though clearly often boiled -- but also that they ate them raw and plainly
in salads, and possibly more simply, because they were enjoying them while
they could.
Cheers,
-- Angharad/Terry
From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about period food
Date: 4 Jan 1995 03:58:47 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs
Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
Jerome of York asks,
>Our local group will shortly be having a small potluck, and I have been
>asked to bring a "salad-type" dish. I'd like to keep things as "period"
>as is possible, but I don't have any recipes that fit the bill. I recall
>having been told, long ago, that what we think of as "salads" are
>completely non-period...do any of you have a good recipe for this sort of
>vegetable based appetizer? I would *greatly* appreciate any help!
Fortunately for your situation, you were told wrong. Salads are
perfectly period, and were eaten far more widely than most people
dream of. (The household accounts of one archbishop actually mention
that he insisted on salad with every meal, for instance.)
One might expect that this is the sort of thing that is so simple that
no recipe would survive, but amazingly, one would be wrong. There's a
recipe for salad in _Forme of Curye_ (one of the best known collections
of recipes from period, dating to late 14th C England). I rather suspect
that it's actual purpose was to remind folks that there are more
interesting things to put in salads than simple leafy vegs. Anyhow,
the text is as follows:
Take persel, sawge, grene garlec, chibolles, oynouns, leek,
borage, myntes, porrettes, fenel, and toun cressis, rew,
rosemarye, purslarye; laue and waische hem clene. Pike hem.
Pluk hem small wi(th) (th)yn honde, and myng hem wel with
rawe oile; lay on vyneger and salt, and serue it forth.
Slightly modernized:
Take parsley, sage, green garlic, chiboles, onions, leeks,
borage, mint, poretts, fennel, and garden [town] cress,
rue, rosemary, parsley; lave and wash them clean. Pick
[the nasty bits out of] them. Pluck them small with your
hand, and mix them will with oil; add vinegar and salt,
and serve it forth.
Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I
wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage
are tough too, though at least possible). And I wouldn't rule out
some lettuces, or spinach, or any readily available fresh herbs
(many supermarkets carry fresh basil these days, for example).
Things to avoid: tomatoes and bell peppers (New World). I know
that there are appropriate cucumbers, but haven't seen them in
recipes. I've seen recipes that call for radish, but am not
convinced as to the variety. Carrots appear to have been relatively
rare; I know of no English recipe that calls for them, and the
only French recipe I know of offhand includes immediately afterwards
a description of what they are, where to get them, and what they
cost -- indicating that the author (the Menagier) considered them
exotic enough that his young wife might not know what they are.
Hope this gives you some guidelines. Enjoy!
-- Angharad/Terry
From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about period food
Date: 4 Jan 1995 04:11:55 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs
Greetings, again, from Angharad. Looking over my recent response
to Jerome of York:
>One might expect that this is the sort of thing that is so simple that
>no recipe would survive, but amazingly, one would be wrong. There's a
>recipe for salad in _Forme of Curye_ (one of the best known collections
>of recipes from period, dating to late 14th C England).
Probably more information than Jerome ever wanted, but to clear up
a possible false inference....
On second glance, this sounds as if that's the only period recipe
for salad. Actually, not. For instance, Platina has a recipe for
"a salad of several greens", in among many vegetable recipes. (It
adds lettuce to the list explicitly, and catmint -- yes, catnip --
and chervil, all of which are available, if you're in the mood, as
well as some other rather less avaiable stuff, and that wonderful
standby, "other fragrant greens".) Also calls for a very simple
vinegar and oil dressing. (With all those herbs in the salad, who
needs more in the sauce?) He also has a separate section on preparing
endive, and lots of other stuff.
There are probably other recipes out there too; these are just the
ones that jump to mind.
In other words, live wildly!
-- Angharad/Terry
From: jlv at coho.halcyon.com (Vifian(s))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about period food
Date: 4 Jan 1995 16:17:00 GMT
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Greetings from Jean Louis de Chambertin
greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) writes:
>Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
<SNIP>
>Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I
>wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage
>are tough too, though at least possible).
We have stopped using rue (although I think that we only had it available
in dried form) because of its reputation as an abortificant. I suspect
that the amounts that we would have used would have had negligible
effects, as probably would a few leaves in a salad, but not knowing this
for sure we have opted for the safer course of just not using it.
Jean Louis de Chambertin
jlv at halcyon.com
From: hairy at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about period food
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 10:16:23 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc
Angharad writes:
>Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I
>wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage
>are tough too, though at least possible).
Borage tough to find? What sort of vicious climate have you _got_!?
That stuff is about the most combat-ready herb I ever saw. I guess I
haven't seen it in the supermarket, but once it's in the garden it's not
going away in a hurry...
While on the topic of herbs, anyone got suggestions for what to use
wormwood for? My plant seems to like its new home, so bits of it may as
well be pressed into service...
Edward Long-hair
Southron Gaard, Caid
From: tallison at mcs.com (Tim Allison)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about period food
Date: 4 Jan 1995 18:16:03 GMT
Organization: MCSnet
coren at teleport.com (Gary Heavysege) wrote:
> Our local group will shortly be having a small potluck, and I have been
> asked to bring a "salad-type" dish. I'd like to keep things as "period"
> as is possible, but I don't have any recipes that fit the bill. I recall
> having been told, long ago, that what we think of as "salads" are
> completely non-period...do any of you have a good recipe for this sort of
> vegetable based appetizer? I would *greatly* appreciate any help!
If you can hold of a book called Sallets Humbles and Shrewsbury Cakes, it
will help you with suggestions. The author is Ruth Ann Beebe. She agrees
that modern salads are totally non-period-they thought raw vegetables and
fruit were harmful-but they did occasionally eat them. Some possibilities
that involve currently available foods are boiled onions with vinegar and
oil, or samphire(whatever that is)with bean pods, aspauragus and
cucumbers, also with vinegar and oil, or olives and capers, or (this may
sound unlkely, but they're claiming documentation) young lettice, cabage,
purslan(pursley) and divers other hearbes(whatever's available, I guess).
This time the vinagrette has a little sugar added.
You might also went to check the rec.arts.cooking.historical newsgroup for
other suggestions.
Hope this is helpful. I went through the same problem years ago at a
Richard III Society potluck.
Caroline Richenda of the White Rose mka Carol Mitchell
--
Tim Allison
tallison at mcs.com
From: mujle at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jennifer L Edwards)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about period food
Date: 9 Jan 1995 03:32:27 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Greg Rose (greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu) wrote:
: Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
: One might expect that this is the sort of thing that is so simple that
: no recipe would survive, but amazingly, one would be wrong. There's a
: recipe for salad in _Forme of Curye_ (one of the best known collections
: of recipes from period, dating to late 14th C England). I rather suspect
: that it's actual purpose was to remind folks that there are more
: interesting things to put in salads than simple leafy vegs. Anyhow,
: the text is as follows:
: Take persel, sawge, grene garlec, chibolles, oynouns, leek,
: borage, myntes, porrettes, fenel, and toun cressis, rew,
: rosemarye, purslarye; laue and waische hem clene. Pike hem.
: Pluk hem small wi(th) (th)yn honde, and myng hem wel with
: rawe oile; lay on vyneger and salt, and serue it forth.
: Slightly modernized:
: Take parsley, sage, green garlic, chiboles, onions, leeks,
: borage, mint, poretts, fennel, and garden [town] cress,
: rue, rosemary, parsley; lave and wash them clean. Pick
: [the nasty bits out of] them. Pluck them small with your
: hand, and mix them will with oil; add vinegar and salt,
: and serve it forth.
: Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I
: wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage
: are tough too, though at least possible). And I wouldn't rule out
: some lettuces, or spinach, or any readily available fresh herbs
: (many supermarkets carry fresh basil these days, for example).
: -- Angharad/Terry
Greetings from Gwenhwyvar Lawen, someone who cooks alot. I just thought
I'd add something to the advice given above. According to Hieatt and
Butler, the editors of the Early English Text Society's version of Curye
on Inglysch (where my copy of the Forme of Cury comes from), chybolles
are spring onions (US scallions), and porrettes are young leeks or green
onions. Also, when I make this salad and don't have all of the herbs
available fresh, I put dried herbs into the vinegar and oil dressing. It
turns out very well. I never use rue, as the herb book I have says that
strong doses are toxic and should never be taken internally without
strict medical supervision (that's good enough for me).
Pro cocto-
Gwenhwyvar Lawen
March of Lochmorrow, MK
Jennifer Edwards-Ring
Western Illinois University
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: destry at netcom.com (Fellwalker)
Subject: Re: Question about period food
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 23:45:55 GMT
Suze Hammond (Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: Is it a correct assumption that this lettuce would be more like one of the
: modern leaf lettuces, such as red or romaine, instead of iceberg heads?
I wish I had more reference on this,(I'm still working on that
carrot issue). Since there are at least 6 more types of lettuce than
I've ever seen in a grocery store, and since the types that are sold in
the US aren't the types that are popular in Europe (where most lettuces
were developed anyway)...it's probably not safe to assume that one (leaf)
is more period than the other (iceberg) without checking it out. For all
I can tell there's one that 's a crunchy leaf-head lettuce (not Romaine) that
could be older than either of them. (If anyone comes up with any info
please let me know and I'll add it to the research I come up with)
Also, Catmint (Nepeta mussinii) and Catnip (Nepeta cataria) are two
seperate herps (in the same family, obviously), although catmint could be
refering to catnip. (someone noted that Rue was used as an abortificant
and should probably be avoided for that reason...Catnip was historically
used in a tea to induce menstruation so pregnant women may want to avoid
it, also. (My SO drinks it occaisionally with no ill effects)
--
-- ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... <destry at netcom.com>
From: kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu (kathleen keeler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cooking Question
Date: 10 May 1995 19:08:21 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln
Margaret Griffith (peggieg at u.washington.edu) wrote:
: I have seen several references in sixteenth/seventeenth century cookbooks
: (Digby, etc.) to "Pot-herbs" (for examples, add to the pottage a
: collander of pot herbs...").
: Can anyone enlighten me as to what would constitute "pot herbs" in this
: time period?
: Thank you.
: Meg Penrose
Generally, "greens". Leaves to toss into the pot. For country folk,
stuff you didn't need to grow but could gather: leaves of lettuce,
chickweed (_Stellaria media_) shepherd's purse (_Capsella
bursa-pastoris_), purslane (_Portulaca olearcea_), watercress,
turnips, spinach, goosefoot (_Chenopodium album_), dandelion,
salad burnet, arugala to name a few I like.
For city folk, cheaply purchased leaves.