Home Page

Stefan's Florilegium

vinegar-msg



This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

vinegar-msg – 3/24/12

 

Vinegar in period. Making vinegar.

 

NOTE: See also these files: Vinegar-art, Vinegar-NJFCC-art, verjuice-msg, yeasts-msg, wine-msg, beer-msg, pickled-foods-msg, salads-msg.

 

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Vinegar - was Yeasts was: 14th Century Bread

Date: 3 Mar 1997 03:34:29 GMT

 

Father Gregory of apospirit at sprintmail.com says...

>MamaMoose1 wrote:

>> I've never heard of a yeast (wild or tame) that produced vinegar. That's

>> usually produced by another organism contaminating the product.

>>

>>                   - A'isha al-Aneed

>I came in at the end of this thread so I risk looking like a bigger

>idiot than I am normally.  It is my understanding that vinegar is a by

>product from the oxidation of alcohol.  I will try to research this

>further.  Since yeast decoposes suagr in to alcohol and carbon dioxide,

>in an indirect way; you could claim that yeast is responsible.

 

Previous discussion in this thread has covered the fermentation process of

sugars to alcohol.

 

generalised equation for fermentation.

C6H12O6 + yeast -> 2 C2H5-OH + Co2

sugar   to    alcohol and carbon dioxide

 

The yeast acts to obtain energy for its own growth by the reaction, the

alcohol being a waste product as far as the organism is concerned. Hence

the joke that a fermented product is "dead bugs in bug poo juice"... :-)

 

If you obtain a good quality "organic" style apple cider vinegar (or any

other vinegar such as malt or wine) you often get the "mother of vinegar"

for the vinegar in the product. Indeed this is considered a bonus, as it

proves the  vinegar to still be "alive".

 

Wine fanciers often have a container covered with a clean cloth into which

they pour the dregs of even their quality wines, which then ferment into

great vinegar.

 

I have misplaced some of my reference books at the moment, but vinegar

used to be a more common product for sale in England during period than

wine, in types of style of vinegar offered vs wine.

 

Vinegar merchants were more plrntiful than wine merchants.

 

Wine kept in casks, tends to go to vinegar fairly quickly. Wine imported

from Europe to england was sloshed around in the barrels, promoting the

mixing of air, which speeds the vinegar generation process.

 

Basically

CH2CHOH + O2 + Bacteria -> CH3CO-OH + H2O

alcohol + oxygen + Bacteria -> Acetic acid + water

 

The bacterium is an "acetobacter", and acts to obtain energy for its own

growth by the reaction, thus "dead bugs in sour bug poo juice" I

suppose... :-)

 

Prior to 1800, the best known commercial vinegar producing method was

called the Orleans method, which took 3-4 months to process a barrel of

about 50 galls, but this was in still conditions on land. As the process

normally takes place only at the air/liquid surface (because of need to

get sufficient air into the liquid), thrashing the contents of the cask

around while bringing it over from France, or further by ship, speeds up

the process enormously. Bouncing it around on the back of a cart or pack

animals would help too. Later out of period processes also sped things up

by enabling more air to be put into the liquid easily.

 

Indeed the problem with wine in period was to stop it going off (note

Biblical references to new wine/old wine), which was not easily

accomplished without bottling, or special sealed storage jars, and the

sealant was a problem before cork was used late in period. Keeping it in

barrels is risky, especially since the science (or is that art:-) of the

time didn't understand things the way we do now.

 

Robin

--

rhayes at powerup.com.au  http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/

 

 

From: Tom Brady <tabrady at mindspring.com>

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:34:50 -0400

Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar

 

At 04:33 PM 4/15/97 +1000, Fiona Porteous asked:

>Is balsamic vinegar a. period and b. appropriate to any use here?  (Is that

>champagne vinegar?)

 

I just took a quick cruise around the web to see what I could find. At the

web site of Alessi, one of the larger commercial balsamic vinegar

producers, they say (at http://www.vigo.com/BALSAMIC.htm):

 

"Balsamic vinegar has been made for hundreds of years. It originated in the

Modena region of Italy, and until recently only those regions were

privileged to experience its delights. It is recorded that in 1046 A.D.,

Boniface, marquis of Bologna, made a gift of Balsamic Vinegar to Henry III,

the Holy Roman Emperor. Like in wine making, each family had their own

special recipe. The Balsamic Vinegar was aged up to 25 years or more, and

sometimes spiced with herbs and seasonings. "

 

Take this as you will - remember, though, that foods with a long history

make for great marketing.

 

Balsamic vinegar (or aceto balsamico, if you prefer) is most certainly not

the same thing as champagne vinegar. The latter, obviously is made from

champagne, which is allowed (or encouraged) to turn to vinegar. According

to the web site of Master Choice (http://www.masterchoice.com/vinegar.htm),

another commercial balsamic vinegar producer, the traditional production

goes like this:

 

"After pressing, the juices of the trebbiano and lambrusco grapes that are

typical to the Emilia-Romagna region are blended and boiled over fire, and

then poured into barrels of oak, chestnut, cherry, mulberry and ash. For

years, the juice ages, ferments and condenses naturally, gradually

transforming into vinegar. Every year, the liquid is mixed with younger

vinegars and placed in a series of smaller and smaller barrels. The vinegar

absorbs much of its aroma from the oak and its color from the chestnut.

Then after five years, the vinegar is bottled."

 

That's the theory, anyway. Sadly, much of the cheap balsamic vinegar on the

market today is basically red wine vinegar cut with small amounts of

balsamic vinegar (not unlike Kona coffee, for instance, which sometimes has

as little as 3% Kona beans). You can get the traditionally made stuff, but

if you paid less than $15-20/bottle for it, it's probably cut with red wine

vinegar.

 

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the cheap stuff isn't fine to use, if you

like it. Heck, I use the cheap stuff 'cause I can't afford to pay twenty

bucks for vinegar. Just understand what it is.

 

- -Duncan, who recommends a dessert of fresh strawberries in balsamic vinegar

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Brady    tabrady at mindspring.com   SCA: Duncan MacKinnon of Tobermory

 

 

From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:02:09 GMT

Subject: SC - Balsamic Vinegar and Verjuice

 

Someone had mentioned a while back on the list that they wanted to

know when the use of Balsamic vinegar came about. I hate to say that I

have no idea myself, but I sure would love to know!

 

I don't always find that sour juice is easy to come by, and wouldn't

have been easy to get at certain times of the year in a

Medeival/Renaissance household. As such I usually substitute about

half of what I would use in Verjuice as a red wine vinegar and fortify

the other half with at least a 4 year old Balsamic vinegar (preferably

the 20 year old stuff, but that can be pretty darn expensive!)

 

For those of you who may not know, many of the balsamic vinegars you

find in the stores, especially the cheaper ones, are not barrel-aged

at all, but chemically aged and flavored to approximate true balsamic

vinegar. If you ever feel like spending the money for it, I HIGHLY

recommend trying a truly aged balsamic vinegar, preferably over 10

years old. I could just about eat it with a spoon, it is so sweet with

a nice tang to it. One of my favorite ingredients.

 

I'll let everyone know if I find out anything and I would certainly

love to hear if anyone else has found out anything about how long

balsamic vinegar has been around.

 

Honos Servio,

Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra

(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)

zarlor at acm.org

 

 

From: Uduido at aol.com

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:47:51 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: Re: SC - Balsamic Vinegar and Verjuice

 

<< Someone had mentioned a while back on the list that they wanted to

know when the use of Balsamic vinegar came about. I hate to say that I

have no idea myself, but I sure would love to know! >>

 

The current issue of Wine Spectator has a feature story on Balsmaic vinegars.

 

Lord Ras

 

 

From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org>

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:20:32 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: SC - Goat Cheese

 

<snip>

 

Ceridwen

 

P.S.  Oh, and BTW, I found the method for making vinegar... its the last

entry on the page from the "Old Icelandic Medical Miscellany" in His Grace's

Collection!!!!!!

 

 

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:30:57 -0500

From: mtraber at juno.com (marilyn i traber)

Subject: Re: SC -cider vinegar

 

>Ok, dear, I'll bite- how about directions/recipe for making cider

>vinegar. Thanks, Angelique

 

well, start with a hundred year old cider barrel, lol

actually, most apple cider[not pasteurized juice-gak] if left in the back

of the fridge will turn on its own. normally it takes what is called

mother-of-vinegar, which is a mass of microbal growth, place it in a

clean sterilized jar and add cider, sort of like brewing cyser using a

culture from a previous batch rather that dried commercial yeastbeasties.

I seem to remember that you can get mother of vinegar from brewing supply

stores and the wine and cake hobby shop in norfolk virginia.

 

it takes about a month to turn out a nice young vinegar, though it

mellows out with age. basically what I do is tap out a quart or so and

replace it with fresh pressed cider and make sure that i take out what i

will need for the next month or so.

 

margali

 

 

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:55:31 EST

From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC -cider vinegar

 

> i seem to remember that you can get mother of vinegar from brewing supply

>  stores and the wine and cake hobby shop in norfolk virginia.

 

OR you can maybe get some unpasturised cider vinegar from a health food store

and add it to hard cider. The "mother" will form, converting the alcohol to

asetic (sp?) acid... aka vinegar. Done it several times now. New vinegar is

sharp, I cut the stuff with water to taste.

 

Corwyn

 

 

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:03:34 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar

 

And it came to pass on  1 Feb 98, that Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:

> Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with

> English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or

> Spanish?

> Chiquart specifies red wine vinegar in his shopping lists. Is this

> because being Savoiard, this is the type he could get? Would an

> English cook use malt vinegar, ie fermenting the easier to get beer,

> rather than the imported wine?

 

Anne Wilson in _Food and Drink in Britain_ says that wine was

produced locally in medieval times.  The Domesday Book records 40

vineyards in southern England.  The vineyard at the monastary at Ely

produced so much verjuice that the excess had to be sold off.  When

cheap and plentiful wine from Gascony in France began to be imported

during the reign of Henry II, the English wine industry started to

decline.  The Wars of the Roses aggravated the situation,

as did the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII, since so

many of the vineyards were attached to religious houses.

 

"Vinegar" made from beer is more properly called alegar.  Wilson

feels that it may have been introduced as early as Roman times.

Around the 17th century, alegar began to take the place of verjuice

in pickles and sauces, and began to usurp the name "vinegar",

previously only applied to wine-based products. Although

other kinds of vinegar were still made, malt vinegar became the most

common.

 

So it looks to me as though both wine vinegar and malt vinegar would

be appropriate for period British cooking.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

 

 

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar

 

And it came to pass on  1 Feb 98, that Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:

> Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with

> English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or

> Spanish?

 

After discussing English vinegars, I forgot to mention the Spanish

ones.  The "Libro de Guisados" mentions vinegar and verjuice, though

it does not IIRC specify what type of wine they are made from.  The

more common souring ingredients are the juice of sour oranges, lemon

juice, and pomegranate juice.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

 

 

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:28:46 -0500

From: dangilsp at intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie)

Subject: SC - Spanish souring agents

 

Hello from Sylvan Glen:

        Lady Brighid said:

 

>> Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with

>> English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or

>> Spanish?

>After discussing English vinegars, I forgot to mention the Spanish

>ones.  The "Libro de Guisados" mentions vinegar and verjuice, though

>it does not IIRC specify what type of wine they are made from.  The

>more common souring ingredients are the juice of sour oranges, lemon

>juice, and pomegranate juice.

>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

>Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

>mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at idt.net

 

        It is rather interesting that you say that sour citrus juices were

used more often as souring agents in the "Libro de Guisados".  The opposite

situation is true in the "Arte de Cozina" some 70 or 80 years later.

Verjuice & vinegar seem to be used pretty much interchangeably in most

recipes, although some recipes mention only one or the other; there are lots

of recipes that call for one, the other or either.  Sour orange juice is a

somewhat common as a souring agent & lemon juice is much less so.  Lime

juice is called for once or twice.  Pomegranite juice is not used at all.

                Take care,     Antoine

Dan Gillespie

dangilsp at intrepid.net

Dan_Gillespie at usgs.gov

Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA

 

 

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:07:20 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Spanish souring agents

 

And it came to pass on  2 Feb 98, that Dan Gillespie wrote:

> It is rather interesting that you say that sour citrus juices were

> used more often as souring agents in the "Libro de Guisados".  The

> opposite situation is true in the "Arte de Cozina" some 70 or 80

> years later. Verjuice & vinegar seem to be used pretty much

> interchangeably in most recipes, although some recipes mention only

> one or the other; there are lots of recipes that call for one, the

> other or either.  Sour orange juice is a somewhat common as a

> souring agent & lemon juice is much less so.  Lime juice is called

> for once or twice.  Pomegranite juice is not used at all.

>                 Take care,     Antoine

 

::sigh:: That's what I get for relying on my faulty memory, rather

than double-checking.  My recollection of the commonness of citrus

juices is based mostly on the fish section of the "Libro".  In

looking over the rest of the recipes, vinegar and verjuice appear

more often than citrus, and rather more often than I remembered.

The vinegar, incidently, is generally specified to be white.

 

I'll just pull the hole in after me...

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

 

 

From: dwbutler at mtu.edu (Daniel W. Butler-Ehle)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Verjuice

Date: 2 May 1998 11:38:00 -0400

Organization: Michigan Technological University

 

Karl A Haefner (RENAISSANCE-COOK at prodigy.net) wrote:

: In two references, I've found that verjuice is a vinegar made from crab

: apples.  There are also suggestions on what to use as a replacement, such as

: cider vinegar with lemon juice added.

:

: My quest ==>  I would like to find either a procedure for making of vinegars

: so that I could produce my own crab apple vinegar or a source for purchasing

: crab apple vinegar from.

:

: I have NEVER come across a book on making vinegar.  Mayhaps I am searching

: incorrectly.  (Looking for verjuice in all the wrong places.)

 

Try a homebrew supplies store. There's a small book "Making Homemade

Vinegars" (no, that's not it...never mind the name) by Romanowski.

You'll also need a mother-of-vinegar culture (preferably for cider

vinegar rather than wine or malt).

 

Ulfin

 

 

From: Glenn David White <gdw0001 at jove.acs.unt.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Verjuice

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:00:16 -0500

Organization: University of North Texas

 

I'm pretty sure the Frug (you know...Jeff Smith...the Frugal Gourmet) does

wine vinegars in his "The Frugal Gourmet Cooks With Wine".  I don't have

the book at hand so I can't check my facts.

 

-Glenn

 

 

Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:48:11 EDT

From: melc2newton at juno.com

Subject: SC - Fish and Vinegar

 

I was looking thro' _Herbal Vinegar_by Maggie Oster for Christmas gift

ideas, and in the history (without documentation) section, she mentions

that...

        "By the thirteenth century, a wide selection of vinegars -

including those flavored with clove,chicory, fennel, ginger, truffle,

raspberry, mustard, and garlic- was commonly sold by street vendors in

Paris. Pepper vinegar was especially popular during the Middle Ages

because wine that contained pepper was not taxed on importation into

Paris."

 

Now were could I start to justify this statement (preferably in English

translation)? Has anyone else run across this pepper vinegar in French

sources?

 

Beatrix

Oakheart/Calontir

Springfield, MO

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:18:26 -0600

From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)

Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

 

Christianna asked:

>A fellow in my group asked me last night about period recipies for

>flavored vinegars.  Any ideas?

 

Looking through Rumpolt's Das New Kochbuch I found a flavored vinegar I'd

never seen before

 

Wenn man gedoerrten Meerrettichwurzeln pulverisiert in Essig thut/ macht jn

bald scharpff.

When one puts pulverized dried horseradish in vinegar it makes it sharp

before long.

 

Sabina Welser also has a vinegar recipe on kind of a large scale:

    Take a jug into which can hold twenty quarts and  spread it with pitch,

next take two pounds of tartar and pound it small and put it into the jug,

take four ginger roots, some thirty or thirty-two peppercorns, take

fourteen quarts of good vinegar and pour it in the jug, take six quarts of

good wine and bring it to a boil and skim it off. Afterwards let it cool

somewhat and pour it into the jug and let it stand for four weeks. See that

you do not stir it up, then it will be good and keep well.

 

Has anyone ever tried to make vinegar from wine or beer? I've seen several

recipes that call for hanging a cloth bag of sourdough in the wine or beer

and letting it ferment, but I don't have any sour dough starter right now

so I haven't given it a try.

 

Valoise

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:13:00 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

 

THLRenata at aol.com writes:

<< And it just so happens that I have all three of those spices and was

wondering what to do with them! Recipes, please?

 

Renata >>

 

Wondering what to do with them? Surely, you jest, m'lady. Almost the entire

extant collection of recipes from the middle ages call for the use of these

spices. :-0

 

On the chance you were referring to vinegar recipes, I collect unusual shaped

botttles with corks like those available at boutiques or dollar stores. Put

a teaspoon or so of cubebs or grains or galegal chips in each bottle (1 inch

sections if your galengal is whole). Fill the bottle with your favorite

vinegar (red or white wine vinegar or apple cider vinegar). Stopper them

firmly and store at room temperature for 6 to 8 weeks.  Mixed with

olive/veggie oil, herbs, etc. as per the standard vinaigrette dressing recipe,

they make excellent dressings for green salads. :-) Hope this helps.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 12:56:19 -0500

From: Ceridwen <ceridwen at ccgnv.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

 

> Has anyone ever tried to make vinegar from wine or beer? I've seen several

> recipes that call for hanging a cloth bag of sourdough in the wine or beer

> and letting it ferment, but I don't have any sour dough starter right now

> so I haven't given it a try.

 

Done both, with better success with wines than beers. I got a "vinegar mother"

from a local brew supply store.  They are available in red, white, and malt

varieties.  You can also use a bit of "natural" (meaning not distilled) vinegar

to start a batch from  either wine or beer. Try finding those at a health food

store. The truly natural way is to let the wine or beer sit in the open,

uncovered for a couple days until it starts to have a vinegary odor, then cover

it with cloth and let it mature. The vinegar-producing bacteria need air to live

and reproduce so don't cap it air-tight. Keeping it warm speeds the process. It

is not a fast process, taking weeks to months to produce a satisfactory

product.

 

    I made a blackberry wine a couple years agos that came out *waaaaayyyy* to

dry for a drinkable or even a cooking wine, and decided to try to make a vinegar

from it. After the addition of the "mother" I let it sit at room temp in a

gallon jug with cheesecloth over the top. In about 6 months it had become a very

smooth, fruity, red wine vinegar, that is just excellent in salads. I use it in

cooking also, and have made a couple of herbal/spice versions from it.  It is

nearly gone, and I'm wondering if I'll ever be able to reproduce it (I really

need to keep a notebook).

 

Ceridwen

 

 

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:34:56 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

 

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:

> I've never heard of a beer or ale vinegar--malt vinegar, yes.  Is this

> from ale, you brewers out there?

 

You sometimes see references to alegar, which is vinegar made from ale,

the suffix "egar" meaning sour, as in the (I think) Old French vin

aigre, or sour wine. So alegar or ale "vinegar" does indeed come from

soured beer or ale.

 

Modern malt vinegar is made a bit differently, though, because I believe

it is made directly from the malt, without any need to ferment it into

an alcoholic beverage first. But, chemically, it's nearly identical to

alegar.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:53:24 -0500

From: "Nick Sasso" <Njs at mccalla.com>

Subject: SC - Malt vinegar....not expert info

 

Adamantius was correct in that you do not ferment your 'wort' (barley malt

tea) in making vinegar.  My experience has been that it makes very quickly

without yeast....or in spite of it.

 

If doing intentional malt vinegar production, I would make a wort of about 1

gallon water to 1-1.25 lbs. (U.S.) malt extract. Boil for 1 hour (more

character and caramalization) and cool to room temperature as quickly and

CLEANLY as practical. You can buy this at brewing stores in either liquid

(like molasses) or dry.  The brand and variety is variable and will produce

varied results.  Lllaglander is a dutch malt that is less fermentable and

will likely give more malt character and residual sweetness to finished

product (relatively).

 

To this starter, I would add mother of vinegar and let 'ferment'/incubate

for manufacturer's recommended time.  I've not ever used mother of vinegar,

but it is most likely to give you a consistant and adequate innoculation of

the right bacteria.  Make sure everything is scrupulously clean and

sanitized all the way to adding the mother.

 

I give again the disclaimer that this is not researched or documented, but

deduced from what I know about brewing and vinegaring.......smooshed

together to this post.

 

niccolo difrancesco

 

 

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:13:45 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Malt vinegar....not expert info

 

Njs at mccalla.com writes:

<< I give again the disclaimer that this is not researched or documented, but

deduced from what I know about brewing and vinegaring.......smooshed

together to this post.

 

niccolo difrancesco >>

 

Actually you're pretty much right on target. Vinegars are produced from the

action of bacteria not yeast. Nine times out of ten the only thing you'll get

from leaving wine or ale exposed to the air is spoiled wine or ale. This may

taste vinegary but is in fact sour from spoilage.

 

Start with a base and if you want quality vinegar you add bacteria. If you

want quality alcohol you add yeast.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:59:27 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - [fwd]  [Mid] Vinegar info needed

 

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:

>  > I would

>  >have thought more of the wine books would have had at least a

>  >paragraph on vinegar, but no such luck.

>  >

>  >Margaret

> That is not so unusual. Wines are made with yeast fermentation. Vinegar is

> made by bacteria. What is it that you need to know?

> Ras

 

I'm pretty sure both Platina and Gervase Markham talk about how vinegar

is made. I'll check in the morning.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:29:54 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - high grain all-natural vinegar?

 

Chip wrote:

> It seems that I once heard about petroleum-derived vinegar being fairly

> common, but not common knowledge.

 

<snip>

 

> Anybody know if there's any truth to this?

> Red wine, rice wine, malt and Balsamic for me, thanks.

 

You forgot my two favorites, sherry and champagne.

 

Yes, distilled white vinegar can be made from petroleum. Not all of it

is, though, so it may be hard to determine based on a bottle of the

stuff. On a molecular level, acetic acid is acetic acid, and since

there's nothing, AFAIK, in distilled white vinegar other than acetic

acid and water, I don't worry too much about it.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 01:15:55 -0500

From: Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com>

Subject: 'Faux' Wine vinegar (was Re: SC - Recipe: Sweet and Sour Lamb)

 

a quick tip for those curious:  When I do not have the white wine

vinegar called for in a recipe, I use a blend of vinegar and white grape

juice to approximate the flavor: 2 parts vinegar to one part juice.  It

is actually pretty close, and isn't hard to do if you have grape juice

in the ice box.  If not, a little apple juice will do in a pinch for

apple 'cider' vinegar approximation.

 

niccolo

 

 

Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 07:04:16 -0700

From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC -  Pleyn Delit et al-vinegar

 

Hey all from Anne-Marie

 

Clothilde and Allison speak on the use of vinegar in the middle ages....

 

I dont find that the vinegar amount in Pleyn Delit is so high...and I take

the words "make it sharp with vinegar" to mean make it sharp with vinegar,

ie it should have a definate twang.

 

Now I love vinegar, and have been known to drink the good stuff straight,

but 1/2 cup of vinegar for 8 people is nothing in my experience. And I

ALWAYS test my recipes for group consumption on someone who isnt as much a

vinegar hound as me just to be sure.

 

Much depends on the type of vinegar yoiu're using....I only use white

distilled vinegar for cleaning my fridge, and save the yummy cider vinegar

or red wine vinegar or balsamic for cooking. THose have a lot less sour

power per unit used.

 

Dishes that use vinegar and you can taste it (other than

egredouce/soubriquet) include the paste en pot/civee de veau, Civee

d'oeufs, , most of the medieval sauces (consisting of vinegar and herbs,

vinegar and spices, etc, mustard and mustard based sauces), le menagier's

sauce for chicken ("half vinegar, half rosewater, and chilled, etc. Item,

orange-juice is good.") aceteria (a 17-18th century treatise on veggies)

has a whole article on it, all of the salats of course use vinegar, and

Apicius uses vinegar almost as much as he uses liquimen and pepper

(mmmm...chicken sour......:)). Even wardyns in syrop have a "lytil venegre".

 

Now, lots of these specify vinegar or verjuice. Verjuice (in my experience)

can range from VERY ascerbic to a gentle bit of pucker. Its possible that

Redon and Hieatt, in an effort to make the ingredients more "safeway

friendly" have changed out all the verjuice for vinegar, and that's why

youre getting more vinegar than you care for.

 

And one of the neat things about reconstructing medieval recipes is that

they DONT give amounts, and so you can play with amounts on ingredients you

dont care for (to a degree, anyway).

 

The medieval palette of flavors in my experience is sour and spicey...a

stew of vinegar, poudre forte. Sure, thre are dishes that dont use this

palette but my interpretation is that they LIKED these flavors, at least

according to the number of dishes that come out this way. Where the cooks

skill can come in is in menu design so that the whole meal doesnt come off

as monochromatic. Have a dish of civee de veau, but contrast it with funges

and frumenty, buttered worts, and an apple krapfen. The bright flavors of

the sour and spicey stew will come across as a high note, with the others

being accompanyments. all will end up augmented.

 

at least this is my opinion,

- --Anne-Marie, a notorious vinegar hound, who has to have several people

test her recipes and review her menus to make sure they're balanced :)

 

 

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:39:45 -0500

From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Eggs graven with Vinegar

 

Morgan Cain wrote:

> As for the kinds, they did not, to my knowledge, have distilled white vinegar as do we.

 

Actually, Plat has a section on distilling vinegar.  I'm not familiar with the modern method, so I can't tell you how it compares, but he suggests using a glass vessel instead of the lead or pewter ones commonly used for distilling vinegar.

 

- -Magdalena

 

 

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:32:48 EDT

From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Eggs graven with Vinegar

 

morgancain at earthlink.net writes:

> Probably they could not figure out how necessarily it happened.

 

They knew how it happened, they just couldn't stop it. Neither can we without

stringent sanitation, which is why you have a pickle crock and a brewing

crock and never the twain will meet if you're smart. Some people don't even

have their vinegar mother working in the same room as their wines and beer,

and some people won't have it in their house at all.

 

>I know there is "mother of vinegar" which may be one of those bacterial clumps,

>used to start the vinegar.  And my Etymological OED version talks of vinegar

>as being produced by a form of fermentation ("acetous").

 

Vinegar can be made from any dilute alcohol, which makes wine and beer ideal

for the purpose. we keep the vessels we make said potables in sealed to

prevent contamination form the air and fruit fly like creatures we refer to

as "vinegar flies" from getting to our brew and infecting it with acetic acid

bacteria.

 

I too have seen numerous recipes on how to use wine or beer that has gone to

vinegar, which is a completely natural process. I too will be looking for

examples shortly. Don't expect it quickly though, lots of other projects in

the offing.

 

Yes, sometimes it turned to something vile, but like people who can make

sourdough bread easily in their own kitchen, there are some people who have

the requisite bacteria present in their own homes to make vinegar. If they

take up home brewing then they find this out very quickly. No doubt there

were people in period that learned that if you put vinegar mother into a wine

you got vinegar eventually, and started an industry. There were just as many

people that were dismayed when they found vinegar mother growing in their

potables I imagine, and cookbook writers to tell them what to do with it.

 

Corwyn

 

 

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:07:39 EDT

From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC -making vinegar

 

kareno at lewistown.net writes:

>        So, if I want to make some (a little)   wine vinegar for a particulr

>  recipe,  I can just mix some of  the wine I would like to use with distilled

>  vinegar, and let it sit  "a while?"

>  

>      My thinking is in a closed canning jar overnight.

>  

>      Caointiarn

 

Nope, but you can buy vinegar mother, or better yet, buy unpasteurized

vinegar in a health food store and add to the wine. Be sure to expose it to

air, perhaps use cheesecloth or some other mesh netting to cover to keep

flies out. Distilled vinegar is right out by definition, not only has it been

pasteurized, and is therefore free of mother, it's been distilled and

watered, it's pretty much just dilute acetic acid. You need the live stuff my

friend.. :-)

 

Overnight? more like a week or two... try it after you see the slimy cover of

the mother form on top and you'll know when it's ready.

 

Corwyn

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 03:56:22 EDT

From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC -making vinegar (longish)

 

stefan at texas.net writes:

> Well, a bit longer than overnight. One of the period ways to speed things

>  up was apparently to put the vinegar-to-be barrels on board ship and

>  ship them somewhere.

 

Makes sense.. the motion of the ship would probably aerate the wine a bit,

speeding the mother along. Nowadays in factory production of vinegar we

actually pump the stuff over the mother on big aeration racks, over and over

again. Speeds the process up immeasurably.

 

Perhaps my own poor efforts on vinegar making aren't clear though. After a

quick and dirty websearch I found this, it might help. It's from the Ohio

State University Extension site. While it deals with cider vinegar, wine

vinegar can be made the same way. There are brewing supply places that sell

vinegar mother, but I have had NO trouble getting started with unpasteurized

vinegar from a health food store.

 

The Ohio State University Extension

Human Nutrition

1787 Neil Avenue, Columbus, OH 43212

 

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Making Cider Vinegar at Home

HYG-5346-97

Two factors require special attention when making vinegar at home: oxygen

supply and temperature. Oxygen is spread throughout the mixture by stirring

it daily and by letting air reach the fluid through a cheesecloth filter,

which is used in place of a regular lid. The temperature of fermenting cider

should be kept between 60 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit (F). Lower temperatures

do not always produce a usable vinegar, and higher ones interfere with the

formation of the "mother of vinegar." Mother of vinegar is a mat that forms

on the bottom of fermenting wine that has gone bad.

 

Do not use a metal container when making vinegar; acid in the mixture will

corrode metal or aluminum objects. Glass, plastic, wood, enamel, or stainless

steel containers should be used for making or storing vinegar. The same holds

true for making or storing foods that have more than 1 Tablespoon of vinegar

in the recipe.

 

Steps for Making Cider Vinegar

The following steps must be followed to make a high-quality cider vinegar:

 

Make a clean cider from ripe apples.

 

Change all of the fruit sugar to alcohol. This is called "yeast

fermentation."

 

Change all of the alcohol to acetic acid. This is called "acetic acid

fermentation."

 

Clarify the acetic acid to prevent further fermentation and decomposition.

 

Step 1--Making Cider

Cider is made from the winter and fall varieties of apples (summer and green

apples do not contain enough sugar). Fruit should be gathered, then washed

well to remove debris. Crush the fruit to produce apple pulp and strain off

the juice. Use a press or cheesecloth for straining.

 

Adding yeast to activate fermentation is not essential, but will speed up the

process. Special cultivated yeasts are available for this purpose at

wine-making shops and biological labs--bread yeasts are not recommended. To

make a starter, crumble one cake of yeast into one quart of cider. This makes

enough starter for 5 gallons of cider; double the recipe proportionately when

making more.

 

Steps 2 and 3--Making Alcohol and Acetic Acid

Pour all of the liquid into one or more containers to about three-quarters

capacity; do not close the lids on the containers. Stir the mixtures daily.

Keep the containers away from direct sunlight and maintain the temperature at

60 to 80 degrees F. Full fermentation will take about 3 to 4 weeks. Near the

end of this period, you should notice a vinegar-like smell. Taste samples

daily until the desired strength is reached.

 

Step 4--Filtering

When the vinegar is fully fermented, filter the liquid through several layers

of fine cheesecloth or filter paper--a coffee filter works well for this.

This removes the mother of vinegar, preventing further fermentation or

spoilage of the product.

 

Storing Your Vinegar

The vinegar is now ready for storage in separate, capped containers. Stored

vinegar will stay in excellent condition almost indefinitely if it is

pasteurized. To pasteurize, heat the vinegar before pouring it into

sterilized bottles, or bottle, then place in a hot water bath. In both cases,

the temperature of the vinegar must reach at least 140 degrees F to sterilize

the product, and should not exceed 160 degrees F. Use a cooking thermometer

to ensure the correct temperature is met. Cool the containers and store at

room temperature out of direct sunlight.

 

Flavored Vinegar

Flavoring can be added to homemade vinegar just before bottling. Good

examples of additives include green onion, garlic, ginger, or any combination

of dried or fresh herbs. To make flavoring, place material in a small

cheesecloth bag and suspend in the vinegar until desired strength is reached.

This will take about 4 days, except for garlic, which takes only 1 day. For

every 2 cups of vinegar, use one of the following: 1/2 cup crushed fresh

herbs, 1 tablespoon of dried herbs, 2 large cloves of garlic, or 8 small

green onions. Other good flavorings include tarragon, basil, nasturtium,

chives, mint, chervil, borage, hot chilies, and raspberries. Adjust the

amounts to taste, but be careful not to overload the vinegar. Too much

vegetable matter can destroy the acid and ruin the preservative quality of

the vinegar.

 

Some flavorings may not go well with cider vinegar's distinct taste and

color. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, use more delicate or decorative

flavors. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, you will still need to

pasteurize it and use sterile bottles.

 

Flavored vinegars taste great and have a beautiful color, making them

excellent for use in salads. You will be tempted to display flavored vinegar;

however, be sure to keep your bottles out of direct sunlight, which will

destroy the flavor, acidity, and color of the vinegar.

 

Uses for Homemade Cider Vinegar

Because the acidity of homemade vinegars will vary, do not use them in foods

to be canned or stored at room temperature. Homemade vinegar is, however,

excellent in salads, cooking, or freezer and refrigerator pickled products.

 

Prepared by

Christine Nicholas, Intern

Doris Herringshaw, Extension Agent, Family and Consumer Sciences

 

 

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:40:41 -0500

From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>

Subject: SC - Non-Member submission from Luanne Bartholomew

 

From http://www.nowheat.com/fooddb/food/vinegar.htm

 

Distilled vinegar is not distilled. The name merely means that it is made

from distilled alcohol. This is done in a fermentation process in which the

fermenting bacteria, a species of Acetobacter, oxidizes the added alcohol to

acetic acid. The fermentation mixture is filtered and diluted to give an

acetic acid concentration of about 5%. This is vinegar. It does contain

nitrogenous material which is in part derived from the nutrient mixture

added to the fermentation in order to keep the Acetobacter growing, and

in part from those bacteria that die and disintegrate during the

fermentation.

 

This acetic fermentation is common to all vinegars so that they all contain

the same kinds of nitrogenous 'contaminants', although in differing

amounts.

 

...[T]he ethyl alcohol from which [distilled vinegar] is made is distilled

from a yeast fermentation mixture. (In the UK, however, I believe that

'distilled vinegar' has a different meaning, that it is made from malt and

that it is in fact, distilled.) In most of the world, molasses, which can be

fermented directly by yeast, is the major source of alcohol. Alcohol is also

made synthetically from petroleum products but I do not believe that alcohol

from this source is much used in the food industry. In the U.S., starches

derived from grains are the major source, mostly (about 85%) from corn.

 

End quote.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Luanne Bartholomew

(Amorwynne of Dalriada ... for now)

 

 

Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 04:13:08 -0400

From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>

Subject: SC - Vinegar

 

Well, I'm up way too late trying to finish my article for my Co-Op's

newsletter, and this month's article is on vinegar.  I came across some

more information on the coal tar connection, and thought it might be of

interest here.   BTW, Stephen, the Florilegium is in my bibliography!

Christianna

 

"Vinegar can be made from anything which contains sugar or starch:

fruits, grains and sugar holding beverages.  Raw, unprocessed vinegar

contains the cobweb-like 'mother', a microbial mat that forms the basis

for the fermentation.  It is rich in enzymes and minerals such as

potassium, phosphorus, natural organic sodium, magnesium, sulphur, iron,

copper, natural pectin and trace minerals. Distilling kills off most of

these beneficial aspects of vinegar, leaving it good for cleaning, but

not for health.  

In the late 1800s chemists learned to make acetic acid from coal tar.

Manufacturers added water to reduce its strength to 5%, colored it and

sold it as vinegar.  Imitation vinegar is still manufactured and by law

the label must state that it is diluted acetic acid. Diluted acetic acid

is inexpensive and lacks the vitamins, minerals and esters found in

fermented vinegar; its flavor and aroma are also inferior.  However, due

to its low cost, it remains one of the most popular vinegars in

supermarkets today. "

 

So, read those labels!

 

 

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:06:22 -0400

From: harper at idt.net

Subject: Re: SC - Lucrezia in Marketland - mainly OOP - LONG

 

<snip of verjuice info - see verjuice-msg>

 

> Another nice thing I picked up was some great Spanish white wine vinegar,

> distilled from Chardonnay. It is also delicious, and the Cabernet

> Sauvignon version I tried was even nicer (unfortunately they'd run out, so

> next time). Which led me to wonder whether they made white and red wine

> vinegar in period, as I don't remember ever seeing a receipt specify the

> color of the vinegar. Can anyone?

 

Nola does, though not in every instance where he calls for vinegar.  

Red vinegar only appears once, and the rest of them time when he

specifies, it's white vinegar.  I haven't checked, but I'd guess that

maybe some of the French recipes specify the color of the vinegar.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:11:10 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...

 

Nicolas Steenhout wrote:

> I have *no* clue as to what would happen if you put a wine mother unto

> mead, though I suspect it might be worth the experiment.

 

Probably similar to what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale...

 

> Acquiring a mother is somewhat tricky.  I have had one form naturally on

> wine, once.  The other two times, I borrowed part of a mother from my

> father (yeah, I know...).  You might want to do a web search...  dunno...

 

FWIW, Milan Brewing Labs in New York (which I mention only as an

example, not to recommend them as a resource) used to sell jars of

vinegar mother, oh, maybe 10 years ago. The stuff should be out there somewhere.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:33:40 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...

 

Cheriti Watts wrote:

> And what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale?????

 

It becomes vinegar. Alcohol, and, eventually, sugar, gets eaten and

turned into acetic acid.

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:23:46 EDT

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

cassea at teleport.com writes:

<< And what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale????? >>

 

You get malt vinegar.

 

Ras

 

 

From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...

Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:46:59 -0400

 

>> I have *no* clue as to what would happen if you put a wine mother unto

>> mead, though I suspect it might be worth the experiment.

>Probably similar to what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale...

 

I did the beer trick and it turned out just fine. I had a champaign bottle

of unhopped beer which had been opened to early. Had a little white wine

vinegar with mother in it.  The mother was the wispy cloudy filmy stuff that

was neutrally buoyant in the vinegar.  I poured said mothery vinegar into

the beer put the cork back on and let the bottle sit for a year or so.  Nice

malt vinegar which, with proper documentation, I entered into A/S.  Want to

see the documentation?

 

Daniel Raoul

 

 

Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:55:53 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:vinegar and ale

 

Stefan li Rous wrote:

> > Devra at aol.com wrote:

> > > Actually, I believe what you get is alegar.  (snicker--neat word, eh?)

> > > Devra

> >

> > Technically, yes, and an excellent term it is. By that logic, though,

> > rice wine vinegar, cider vinegar, and distilled white vinegar are also

> > not entitled to be called vinegar. I figure if the Heinz company has the

> > cojones to call it malt vinegar, I'm not going to worry.

> >

> > Adamantius

> Huh? What is "alegar"? I thought all of these items were vinegar? Are

> you saying that only wine creates vinegar? If so, then why does

> fermented rice wine not make vinegar? Or are we also saying wines can

> only be from grapes?

 

Alegar = Ale egar/eger/aigre (as in egerdouce), or sour ale

Vinegar = Vin egar/eger/aigre or sour wine

 

By distinguishing malt "vinegar" as a non-wine product (as opposed to

simply a vinegar product), in other words by its origin rather than by

its sour nature (a perfectly legitimate and sensible if somewhat

outdated approach from a language perspective, given our use of terms

like malt vinegar, rice vinegar, etc.) we then leave open

reclassification of the other "vinegars" not made from wine. And these

include, in addition to alegar or malt vinegar, rice vinegar (since rice

"wine" is in fact an ale), cider vinegar (made from cider, which is not

wine), and so forth.

 

I guess it boils down to whether one wants to be exclusionary

(exclusive?) or not. But if one does, then it has to be unilaterally.

 

So does anybody know what the German essig is made from? is it just

concentrated vinegar of whatever type is available?

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 04:05:49 -0700 (PDT)

From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] essig was:vinegar

 

>So does anybody know what the German essig is made from? is it just

>concentrated vinegar of whatever type is available?

>Adamantius

 

In Sweden there's something called '=C4ttika' which I believe is the same thing as the German 'Essig'.  It's a water solution of acetic acid (the same acid as in vinegar) but it's made from pure alcohol (by oxidation, not bacteria) and diluted to  12 & 24% acetic acid IIRC. Vinegar is often in the 5-7% range.

 

/Angus

 

 

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:11:30 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] re: vinegars

 

Here's an actual vinegar book if the online files aren't enough.

 

Vinegar : The User Friendly Standard Text Reference

and Guide to Appreciating, Making, and Enjoying Vinegar.

by Lawrence J. Diggs. paperback. 17.95 usd.

Amazon says:(This) tome tells everything the reader

might want to know about vinegar: History, commercial

production, vinegar making as a hobby, understanding

vinegar and how it's produced, flavoring vinegar,

and health benefits and medical uses.

 

Johnna Holloway

 

Susan Fox-Davis wrote:

> Funny thing, vinegar is being discussed on the SCA-leather group as well.  It

> seems that if you put iron in vinegar, some steel wool pads will do, the

> resultant compound makes an effective [if a bit stinky at first] black leather

> dye.  Vinegar, it's not just for breakfast anymore!

> Helpfully, Selene

 

 

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:50:47 -0500

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: Gaylin Walli <iasmin at home.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Caointiarn's apple vinegar

 

Caointiarn wrote:

>I also started a new batch of apple wine. However, I was in a bit of a

>rush before I left on vacation, and had a bit more than the 2 gallon jugs

>for the 2nd fermentation, so I just put the rest in a canning jar.  Came

>home to white floaty stuff  -- mother?  as for vinegar?  Smells that way.

>How long does vinegar need to incubate to be vinegar?  and do I need to feed

>the mother?  what and how often?   The stuff seems happy enough, and keeping

>it for my own vinegar would be way cool, I think.

 

Assuming it's the right bacteria, then yes, you probably have the start to a

very fine vinegar in the making. If the stuff is still floating on top then the

vinegar is too young to do much with. But if it's on the bottom, try taking a

piece of plain bread and pouring a little of the non-floaty-laden liquid on it

and see how it tastes. Likely at this point it will taste a little young, more

like cider or apples than vinegar. Eventually it will taste sharp like vinegar

but you'll probably find that the longer you let it sit (a nice dark warm place

helps) the more smooth and mellow with bite the vinegar gets.

 

I think that once you start making your own vinegar you'll find it hard to go

to the stuff they sell in the store. At least I know that I have. If you find

yourself using up that cider vinegar and you're getting close to the bottom

of the jar, save the last dregs with the floaty stuff and start a new batch.

Try some wine or some more cider with that mother and see what happens

with it. I've found that for the vinegars I've liked the best, saving

the mother and using it over again has worked tremendously well.

 

And it's a great way to get rid of those last little bits of wine that don't get

drunk at parties. Many of my friends save the bottles of wine that they don't

completely use up or that they don't like and give them to me for just such

a use.

 

Iasmin

 

 

Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:33:58 -0500

From: "Louise Smithson" <smithson at mco.edu>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar question.

 

The Ohio extension has a small faq on making vinegar at

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5346.html

 

Helewyse

 

 

Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:56:41 -0500

From: "Louise Smithson" <smithson at mco.edu>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:  rose vinegar period recipe (no redaction) long

 

Stefan wrote:

However, I have one question. The recipe talks of using

"rose leaves", not "rose petals". Would this work using rose

leaves? Or is the author really speaking of petals when he

says "leaves"? I note that in the comments about Elderne

(Elderberry?), he says "flowers" not "leaves".

 

The way I read it we are talking about blooms here.  Mainly because the

recipe talks about using them before they are blown.  Roses are blown

when they are fully opened.  And botanically they are leaves, just

modified, the actual flower of a rose is that little bit down the

bottom.  The essential oils are all in the rose petals itself and the

leaves are just, well green and nasty.

What surprised me is the recipe will take all summer to prepare.

 

Helewyse

 

 

From: Etain1263 at aol.com

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:17:26 EST

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:  rose vinegar period recipe (no redaction) long

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

smithson at mco.edu writes:

> What surprised me is the recipe will take all summer to prepare.

 

-=grin=- Ever make herbal cordials?  Some infusions take more time than

others.  I suspect that it is the delicate nature of the rose oil that

requires the amount and time.  Something strongly flavored...as a mint, for

example, infuse rather quickly.

 

Etain

 

 

From: "Darren Gasser" <kaos at earthlink.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Just A Feast report (part 2/2: kitchen detail)

Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:23:22 -0700

 

Kirrily Robert wrote:

>  Used balsamic vinegar; not sure if that's period or not.  Anyone know?

 

Mostly yes.  I can find references back to at least 1046 for the existence

of balsamic vinegar, but  as a medicine. It apparently became a prized

culinary ingredient sometime in the 16th century, and by 1700 was in common

use throughout Europe.   The production method of balsamico was fairly

radically revised in the mid-19th century, so modern balsamics almost

certainly taste very different from their period counterparts.

 

-Lorenz

 

 

Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:56:45 -0400 (EDT)

From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin

 

>  I have no particular competition in mind at the moment. I'm just having

> a hard time finding documentation for vinegar. All I can usually find is

> a refernce to the fact that they had vinegar and it was used in this or

> that recipe.

 

Hm... have you tried Plat's _Delightes for Ladies_ and Markham's _English

Housewife_ (ok, I don't have either to hand right now but I know they have

some recipes for vinegars and/or what to do with them.)

 

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

 

 

Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:12:17 -0400

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin

 

> I was looking for a period recipe for vinegar yes. I make my own and am

> having problems documenting it.

> Elewyiss

 

This is from my new transcription & translation of Liber cure Cocorum, a

15th c. cookery book in dialect & verse, from Sloane MS 1986. This is 2

recipes in one for making vinegar in a hurry. The first method uses a red

hot poker dunked 9 times in strong vinegar & then in wine to sour the wine.

The second method uses roasted beans, steeped in vinegar, to sour good

wine.

 

4.  To make venegur in a nede,

Take a gad of stele, I wot indede;

In strong venegur [th]ou schalt hit fele

ix sythes in venegur, [th]er-of [th]ou rek,

A-bere with [th]e hete hit [th]ou may,

And in goode wyne sleck hit I say;

Hit shalle be venegur, I wot hit wele,

To serue at a tyme at fest or mele.

And rosted benes, [th]at steped hau[e] ben,

Goode wyne schalle turne to venegur bedene.

 

4.  To make vinegar in a need,

Take a goad of steel, I know indeed;

In strong vinegar you shall it defile

9 times in vinegar, thereof you take care,

[Make] it scream  with the heat you may,

And in good wine slake it I say;

It shall be vinegar, I know it well,

To serve at a time at feast or meal.

And roasted beans, that have been steeped,

Good wine shall turn to vinegar anon.

 

(Tr. copyright 2003, Cindy Renfrow.)

 

Cindy

 

 

Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:32:17 -0400

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin

 

> Thank you. May I use this as a source?

> Elewyiss

 

Yes.

 

The citation should read something like, "passage excerpted from "LIBER

CURE COCORUM, a 15th-century Cookery Book in Dialect and Verse, Copied and Edited from B.L. Sloane MS. 1986, with a Modern English Translation", by Cindy Renfrow. Unpublished translation, copyright 2003. With additional notes sent by the author in an email."

 

Cindy

 

 

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:42:18 -0700 (PDT)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Good brands of vinegar

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Sharon wrote:

---------------------

I have a white vinegar  that I really liked that seems to have a live

vinegar mother culture in it.  Does anyone have people in their local groups

who are into brewing and make vinegar (on purpose :-) )?  I have stopped

using that bottle and thought it might be fun to try and use some of it to

make vinegar.  However I don't know how to do this and would like to have

some advice from someone with experience so there will be less risk of

losing the vinegar strain.

------------------------------

 

You need a homemade wine without preservatives to make vinegar; if you try

and use a wine with sulfites to make vinegar, you will just kill your

vinegar mother.

 

My dad's method: Take vinegar mother, put in large glass bottle with

stopper that has a hole to let the gases out; add wine; put in cool,

dark place; wait a week; check on vinegar strength; maybe wait longer.

Pour out vinegar carefully through a coffee filter to get rid of silts

and residues. When the mother gets too large, subdivide it.

 

Red wine vinegar in my grandmother's house was made from the infamous

"dago red" my grandpa made (my uncle took over winemaking duties when

my grandpa died. Grandpa had built the house with a cave; it had the

barrels for the wine and the barrel for the vinegar. It also had

Grandpa's still, where he made the rocket fuel, um, I mean, grappa.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:49:38 -0600

From: "caoitiarn" <caointiarn1 at juno.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar

To: "sca cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

----- Original Message -----

>> I have a white vinegar  that I really liked that seems to have a live

vinegar mother culture in it.  Does anyonehave people in their local groups

who are into brewing and make vinegar (on purpose :-) )?  I have stopped

using that bottle and thought it might be fun to try and use some of it to

make vinegar.  However I don't know how to do this and would like to have

some advice from someone with experience so there will be less risk of

losing the vinegar strain.

 

>> Sharon

 

      For you Sharon, I'm sending attachments about vinegar. {one is a

grouping from the Flori-thingy (tm) } You could try with what you thnk

might be "mother"  and you won't know if it's viable unless you do try.

 

Vinegar can be made from anything that contains sugar or starch: fruits,

grains and sugar holding beverages. Raw, unprocessed vinegar contains the

gelatinous substance calld the "mother," or active acid bactar that forms

the basis for the fermentation. It is rich in enzymes and minerals such as

potassium, phosphorus, natural organic sodium, magnesium, sulfur, iron,

copper, natural pectin and trace minerals.  This is visile confirmation

that vinegar is being produced.   I started with such a piece from my class

in making vinegar at Estrella 2002.

 

The truly natural way is to let the wine or beer sit in the open,

uncovered  for a couple days until it starts to have a vinegary odor, then

cover it  with cloth and let it mature. The vinegar-producing bacteria need

air to  live and reproduce so don't cap it airtight.  Keeping it warm speeds the

process. It is not a fast process, taking weeks to months to produce a

satisfactory product.

 

   This is how my first batch of vinegar started.  I was taking some apple

wine from first fermentation bucket to sealing it in airlock vessels.  I ran

out of room before I ran out of wine. So, I left the 3 cups in a

quart-canning jar on my kitchen counter and went off for vacation for 2

weeks.  I came back to find the jar contents had grown a thin, whitish

gelatinous material.  It smelled quite sharp, very acidic.  I put it in a

cupboard and started doing some research for making vinegar.

 

  However, for predictable results, and to control the process in a manner

that prohibits unwanted and unfriendly yeast and bacteria, Mother {active

acid bactar} should be used.   Vinegar can be made from any dilute alcohol,

which makes wine an beer ideal for our purpose. The percentage of acetic

acid in vinegar is directly related to the percentage of alcohol used to

make the vinegar.   The ideal base to make vinegar should contain 5% - 7%

alcohol.  Thus, your choice of base needs to be diluted with water, avoiding

heavily mineralized or chlorinated water. Moreover, because of added

sulfites to modern wines, the wine should be left exposed to air for 24

hours/overnight before introducing the mother.

 

  Just as in other fields of brewing and fermentation, keeping everything

clean and sanitized throughout the process is essential.   Keep in mind that

this is food. Do not use containers made from materials that react badly to

acetic acid. I like to use nonporous materials such as glass containers.

It may be a good precaution to not keep your vinegar mother working in the

same room as your fermenting wines and beer. Some brewers won't have it in

their house at all.  Another precaution: once you start making vinegar in a

container, especially a porous one, don't try to convert it for use in

making wine, beer or cider.

 

  Making vinegar is an easy process, but one that takes patience.  It takes

about a week to convert 1% of alcohol to 1% acetic acid.    The vinegar

needs to be kept at "room temperature" {68 - 85F} for the mother to convert

the alcohol to vinegar.  Keep the container out of direct sunlight.  The

mother needs oxygen, so the container should not be air tight, or filled

completely.  Aerate the vinegar by gently swirling the liquid in the

container every day for the first week.   It may take up to 6 weeks before

you see a thin film forming on top of the vinegar.    This new mother will grow across the top of the vinegar and can become 1/2 inch thick within two

weeks.  Swirling will have the mother fall to the bottom, but that's okay.

If the alcohol to acetic acid is unfinished, more mother will form.  After

a month's time, taste the vinegar.  If it suits your palate, strain it

through cheesecloth into bottles and cap or cork them.  If you plan to keep

your vinegar for an extended period of time, you may want to pasteurize it

by a simple hot water bath of at least 140F, but not hotter than 160F.

 

     Caointiarn {currently "making" a nice white & burgundy vinegar}

 

 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:47:06 -0500

From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adelphi.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins now vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Elewyiss wrote:

>> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook with an actual recipe  

>> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.

 

to which Elizabeth or David replied:

> You want a recipe for vinegar? Vinegar normally shows up as an  

> ingredient.

 

Channeling the author (Douglas Adams?) who said "flying is the art of

falling on the ground and missing," vinegar is basically failed wine;

literally "vin aigre", or sour wine.  More precisely, wine is

normally fermented in the presence of very little oxygen, so the

yeast is forced into its anaerobic metabolic mode, which produces

alcohol as a waste product; in the presence of oxygen, the yeast

prefers a more efficient aerobic metabolic mode that produces acetic

acid instead.

 

Does that sound right?  (I'm not a brewer....)

 

Anyway, I suspect that every human society that's ever made a

fermented beverage has had a corresponding vinegar.

--

                                     John Elys

    (the artist formerly known as mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib)

 

 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:19:32 -0500

From: Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at cornell.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook with an actual recipe  

> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.

> Elewyiss

 

Stere Htt Well ("A book of medieval refinements, recipes and remedies from

a manuscript in Samuel Pepys's library" - Pepys Library ms 1047) has a

recipe.  Though the Pepys is OOP, the ms. is perhaps 15th century.  This is

a facing-page translation, with no redactions.  The Introduction by Delia

Smith, on the other hand, is one of those hideous "disguise the smell

and  flavour of decaying flesh" sorts of things (thank goodness for  

libraries).

 

To turn wine to vinegar or ale to alegar or cider to eisell

Take a pot and fill it full of wine, eisell or good ale and stop the mouth

well so that nothing may get in or out and put in a vessel full of water

and set the vessel on the fire and let the pot of wine boil in the same way

a long while until it is turned.

 

This doesn't look like any modern instructions I've seen, and the whole

"stop it well" seems counter to the "make wine vs make vinegar"

aerobic/anaerobic bit.

 

Sandra

 

 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:46:58 -0800

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subect: Re: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

>> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook withan actual recipe  

>> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.

>> 

>> Elewyiss

> Stere Htt Well ("A book of medieval refinements, recipes and

> remedies from a manuscript in Samuel Pepys's library" - Pepys

> Library ms 1047) has a recipe. Though the Pepys is OOP, the ms. is

> perhaps 15th century.  This is a facing-page translation, with no

> redactions.  The Introduction by Delia Smith, on the other hand, is

> one of those hideous "disguise the smell and  flavour of decaying

> flesh" sorts of things (thank goodness for libraries).

 

The modern English translations are also unreliable. It's the source

for our "that no egg may escape" translation anecdote--the translator

knew about the 15th c. word for egg, and as a result mistranslated

"ai" as "egg." The recipe has no eggs in it.

--  

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

 

 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:47:27 -0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

On 17 Nov 2004, at 23:24, The Borg wrote:

> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook with an actual recipe

> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.

> Elewyiss

 

The "Libro de Agricultura" (1551) by Gabriel Alonso de Herrera has

instructions for making vinegar.  The simplest method is to place wine in a

vessel that previously contained vinegar, and leave it in the sun (or a warm

place).

 

The book is online, but it's page images of the original, in untranslated

Spanish.

http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533701960

(Go to image # 103)

 

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:36:22 -0800

From: aeduin <aeduin at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegat (was: German Harvest Feast Outlands

        Nov 04

To: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>,    Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

>> You comment discussing the pork and onion recipe that balsamic

>> vinegar isn't period. This suprises me; if so, when did it come in?

>> Anyone know?

>> 

>> Elizabeth/Betty Cook

> Dunno from actual source documentaion, but the balsalmico

> sites from Italy claim the 10th century or so.

> http://www.harvestfields.netfirms.com/herbs/Vin/01.htm

> This is an interesting site that he claims he has documentation

> for the 11th Century.  But it was mostly an 'in Modena" thing

> that was kept local.

> Real nice site with some cool vinegar stuff - recipes, etc.

> Cadoc

 

If you look at the very bottom of the page it says, "In 1861 Mr.

Aggazzotti, a lawyer, introduced a revolutionary production technique that

used concentrated grape must as the raw material instead of wine vinegar.

This is the method that has been used ever since to produce traditional

balsamic vinegars."  Which to me indicates that the balsamic vinegar that

we know and use today is not what was around back then.  This thought is

backed up by this statement, "Further documentary proof confirms Modena as

the birthplace of balsamic vinegar, whose method of preparation did not

undergo any significant changes for many centuries."

 

So, using one article as documentation you can infer that Balsamic vinegar

is period but that what we get today may be similar in taste but we will

probably never know.

 

aeduin

 

 

Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:37:34 -0600

From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar

To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Cadoc commented:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:19:32 -0500, Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at cornell.edu> wrote:

>> To turn wine to vinegar or ale to alegar or cider to eisell

>> Take a pot and fill it full of wine, eisell or good ale and stop the mouth

>> well so that nothing may get in or out and put in a vessel full of water

>> and set the vessel on the fire and let the pot of wine boil in the same way

>> a long while until it is turned.

> That sounds like an explosion and a trip to the burn ward.

 

If the vessel is so tightly sealed that the whatever is stopping the

mouth doesn't blow out.

 

   However, for this I think I'd want to see the original rather than the

translation. I'm wondering if the translation is wrong for "boil" and

that it wasn't originally something more like warm or possibly simmer.

Besides the danger, I don't think boiling would do any good. It also

doesn't say how long to do this other than a "long while". Perhaps what

is really being called for is to keep the wine warm for a long time.

Cold and even cool air is a preservative. That is the reason wine is

usually stored in cellars. Perhaps all that is meant here is to raise

the temperature to a point where the vinegar making beasties (they are

different from the yeasts that make wine?) can live and continue their

work. Perhaps 75 or 85 degrees? This also assumes that the wine already

has had some contamination which was being kept in check by keeping the

wine cool. Otherwise the filling the pot to the top and stoppering it

doesn't make much sense.

 

Stefan

--------

THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra

     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas

 

 

Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:46:31 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins now vinegar

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

I believe you will find that it is not yeast producing acetic acid but

bacteria breaking down the ethanol from previous yeast fermentation.

 

Bear

 

> vinegar is basically failed wine;

> literally "vin aigre", or sour wine.  More precisely, wine is

> normally fermented in the presence of very little oxygen, so the

> yeast is forced into its anaerobic metabolic mode, which produces

> alcohol as a waste product; in the presence of oxygen, the yeast

> prefers a more efficient aerobic metabolic mode that produces acetic

> acid instead.

>                                     John Elys

 

 

Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:31:39 -0500

From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins now vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> I believe you will find that it is not yeast producing acetic acid but

> bacteria breaking down the ethanol from previous yeast fermentation.

> Bear

 

Neat site of the day:

http://www.vinegarman.com/zoo_vinegar_bacteria1.shtml

 

The vinegar bacteria zoo!

 

Cadoc

 

 

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:05:02 -0500

From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>

Subject: [Sca-coos] Vinegar documentation

To: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

For whoever it was who was looking for documentation for making

vinegar, I just came across this in Liber cure cocorum  [

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/lcc3.htm ].

 

To make venegur manede;

 

   Take a gad of stele I wot in dede;

   In strong venegur þou schalt hit seke

   ix sythes in venegur, þerof þoureke,

   A bere with þe hete hit þou may,

   And in goode wyne sleck hit I say;

   Hit shalle be venegur I wot hit wele,

   To serve at a tyme at fest or mele.

   And rosted benes, þat steped han bene,

   Goode wyne schalle turne to venegur be dene.

 

- Doc

 

 

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:24:30 -0800 (PST)

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Documentation for vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,

        The_Borg1 at comcast.net

 

-----Original Message-----

From: The Borg <The_Borg1 at comcast.net>

I have a recipe for vinegar. What I need is some way to document my recipe.

Basically I use the put wine in a bottle formerly holding vinegar and set in

the sun.

[snip]

 

Elewyiss

 

_____________________________________________

 

Okay, here's documentation for this method, taken from a 16th c.

Spanish agricultural manual.  A facsimile is online at:

http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533701960

 

Below I have transcribed and translated the relevant section.  The

spelling of the original Spanish is slightly modernized, as I cannot

reproduce some of the abbreviations and special characters.  If you

want to print out the page from the facsimile, go to the above URL, and

type 104 in the little search window labelled "Ir a", and click the

arrow to the right of it.

 

Capi. XXXIII  Del vinagre y de muchas maneras de lo saber hazer

 

El vinagre se haze de dos maneras.  Una de si mismo que el vino se

corronpe y se haze vinagre.  Otro hazen: y desto hemos de dezir, como

se ha de hazer, y hemenciar, porque en algunas partes es de tanto

precio: y aun mas que el vino y poresso quieren hazer de vino vinagre:

y aun si vino no ay, aun se pude hazer de otros materiales: y hazese

delas maneras siguentes.  Una es poner el vino al sol en alguna vasija

que aya tenido vinagre, y sino lo ponen al sol sea en algun lugar

caliente: o cerca del fuego.  Otra es o pasar lo por cascas azedas, o

echar un poco de vinagre o vino o agua enlas cascas: y este algunos

dias enlas cascas.  Hazese tambien y presto de vino vinagre:

callentando bien al fuego unas vergas del hazero y meterlas enel vino y

esto se haga muchas vezes y cubran la vasija que no salga aquel

calor...

 

Gabriel Alonso de Herrera

Libro de agricultura que es de la labraça y criança y de muchas otras

particularidades del campo

Toledo [Spain], 1551

 

Chapter XXXIII

 

Of vinegar and of many ways to know how to make it

 

Vinegar is made in two ways.  The first is by itself, when wine spoils

and becomes vinegar.  The other is that they make it, and it is of this

that we must speak, how one has to make it, and manufacture it, because

in some places it is of such value, and even more than wine, and

because of this they wish to make vinegar out of wine.  And even if

there is no wine, it can be made from other materials: and they make it

in the following ways.  One is to put the wine in the sun in a vessel

that has contained vinegar, and if they don't put it in the sun it

should be in some hot place, or near the fire.  Another is to pass it

through sour grapeskins, or to cast a little vinegar or wine or water

on the grapeskins: and it should be on the grapeskins for several days.

  They also swiftly make vinegar from wine, heating several rods of

steel quite well on the fire, and placing them in the wine, and this is

done many times, and they cover the vessel so that the heat does not

escape...

 

[The rest of the chapter discusses verjus and other kinds of vinegar,

such as rose vinegar, elder-flower vinegar, etc.)  I don't have time to

transcribe and translate all of it.  As a point of interest -- after

the mention of elder-flower vinegar, the book says that one can use

other things which are fragrant and stimulating/warming.  So herb

vinegar is quite period, if you choose the right herbs.]

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Sun,  Feb 2005 16:19:01 -0500

From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

AElln scripsit:

> OK - so I'm an ordinary merchant class housewife in Norway *G* and I'm

> looking at a recipe that calls for vinegar. What kind do I think they

> mean? What do I have on hand?

 

I was just looking through "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collectios" and found

a recipe calling for not only wine vinegar (vin egre 'sour wine') but also

what the authors translate as cider vinegar and ale or malt vinegar. The

manuscript is late 13th century. So presumably any or all of these would be

known to you well-to-do Norse housewife.

 

Cynara

 

 

Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:38:29 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] wine vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach Alexa:

> I found a recipe for a sauce that uses wine vinegar.

> Well, I know there are a few different ones out there.

>  What would be the best for a period sauce recipe

> calling for 'wine vinegar'.  The recipe did not

> specify rice wine, red wine, etc.

> Alexa

 

Well, if the recipe doesn't specify, you presumably have a choice,

which may or may not be based upon the likelihood of red wine or

white wine being more prevalent in the country of origin. So, for

example, a German recipe might be slightly more likely to use a white

wine vinegar (or alegar, for that matter), because while they did

import and use red wines, they also made a lot of white wines. In

southern Italy, say, red wine is probably a more likely candidate for

vinegar production.

 

Then, there's the question of color. Which is better, or which do you

prefer? In a sauce that's supposed to be white, you might find a

little red wine vinegar changes that. How important is that to you?

In something like a cameline sauce red is probably best; in a white

garlic sauce, well, do the math.

 

Flavor, same thing. For me, I generally don't bother even buying red

wine vinegar, because with the exception of balsamic, I usually don't

like the stuff (even balsamic, to me, is usually kinda overrated);

give me a good white wine vinegar, sherry or champagne vinegar any

day.

 

Bottom line? It's up to you, based on your assessment as to which is

more likely to be found in the time/place you're working with, and

which you prefer.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:44:27 -0500

From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Follow-up on vinegar

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

This is a summary of what is said on vinegar in 'Les Délices de la Campagne',

pp.73-83  (1655 - I'm sorry this is somewhat OOP, but that's what I'm

researching nowadays)

 

According to Bonnefons, vinegar is made in new casks, using a very strong

vinegar as a starter, to which wine, from which any scum will have been

removed, is gradually added (over the course of many weeks), always keeping the

vinegar in a warm place.

 

Your daily vinegar is kept in a barrel in a warm place as well. You add leftover

wine (after warming it somewhat) in small quantities so as not to soften the

vinegar. Leave the barrel open.

 

Different kinds of vinegar mentioned:

-Rose Vinegar

-Aromatic Vinegar (with cloves, cinnamon, nutmeg or other spices)

-White wine vinegar with dried vine flowers

-vinegar with garlic or shallots

-More aromatic vinegars (with long pepper, ginger or galingale infused

during the initial preparation of the vinegar)

-vinegar added with blackberry or raspberry juice (hmmm... guess what my next

project will be???)

 

As far as I can tell, these vinegar are all prepared from white wine. This may

either reflect common use, or a bias of the author, for even on the section

devoted to wines, white wine is covered in detail, yet red wines are glossed

over pretty quickly. I am not enough an expert on period wine consumption so I

cannot comment any further.

 

Petru

 

 

Date: Mon,  9 May 2005 13:19:56 -0400

From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar, caudles

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Regarding vinegar and its strength in period: vinegar was kept for

domestic use in a barrel and regularly filled up with leftover and/or soured wine. Therefore its strength could vary according to a number of factors, including the strength of the original batch, what was added to it and in what proportions,

etc, etc...

 

It seems to me that when something stronger is required, period recipes will mention 'strong vinegar' specifically. I'm at work so I don't have my sources with me but it shouldn't be to hard to find a few sources who make an explicit differentiation between, say, 'good vinegar', 'vinegar', or 'strong vinegar'.

 

Petru

 

 

Date: Mon,  9 May 2005 13:35:20 -0400

From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar, caudles

To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> Ok, this is going to sound stupid, but can you tell us where you found

> this information? I have not seen this elsewhere and it would be good

> to have the citation.

> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa,

 

I posted this some time ago already - they come from two French manuals: 'La Maison Rustique' by Jean Liebault, which is on domestic economy in general (I believe the edition I use is around 1570 - I can confirm that later this evening) and there is of course 'Le Jardiner François' by Nicolas Bonnefons, which is somewhat OOP (around 1650 - exact dates later tonight for those

interested).

 

Bonnefons (I think - working on memory here) mentions aromatized (is this the right word?) vinegars as well, but I'm not sure there are references to cider vinegar (although there are plenty of references to cider and to poiré as well)

 

Petru

 

 

Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:37:39 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar, caudles

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

There's an English translation of  Maison Rustique dated 1600. There's another dated 1606 and the 1616 one is improved by one Gervase Markham!

Bonnefons appears in English in 1658. It was translated by

John Evelyn.

 

Johnnae

 

patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca wrote:

> I posted this some time ago already - they come from two French manuals: 'La

> Maison Rustique' by Jean Liebault, which is on domestic economy in general (I

> believe the edition I use is around 1570 - I can confirm that later this

> evening) and there is of course 'Le Jardiner François' by Nicolas Bonnefons,

> which is somewhat OOP (around 1650 - exact dates later tonight for those

> interested).

 

 

Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:28:18 -0400

From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Vinegar (info on sources)

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

As promised earlier:

 

La Maison Rustique, by Charles Estienne and Jean Liebault. I'm using the 1572

edition, there were numerous edition in French (and as Johnnae pointed out, in

English as well!) in period.

 

Le Jardinier Francois, by Nicolas Bonnefons. 1651.

 

They are both available for download from Gallica's website (which is, of

course, where I got them!!!)

 

Petru

 

 

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:14:16 -0400

From: Robin <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Flavored vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

I'm thinking of making some flavored vinegar, probably rose vinegar.

The "Obra de Agricultura" says it can be made with dried roses.  That

suits me, because I can buy food-safe rosebuds in the health food store,

and I don't have a source of pesticide-free fresh roses.

 

The "recipe" calls for steeping the roses in the vinegar, and leaving

the bottle in a sunny place for 40 days. This seems similar to modern

recipes I've seen for homemade herb vinegars.

 

Any comments?  Is this a safe method, assuming that I sterilize the

bottle first?

--

Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Robin Carroll-Mann *** rcmann4 at earthlink.net

 

 

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:57:49 +0000

From: iasmin at comcast.net

Subjec: [Sca-cooks] Re: Flavored vinegar

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Brighid asked:

> The "recipe" calls for steeping the roses in the vinegar, and leaving

> thebottle in a sunny place for 40 days.  This seems similar to modern

> recipes I've seen for homemade herb vinegars.

> Any comments?  Is this a safe method, assuming that I sterilize the

> bottle first?

 

My personal opinion is that it's better to place the bottle in a warm  

spot out of direct sunlight. The rose oil seems to me to be too  

delicate to handle constant, direct sun. At least in my experiments,  

I've gotten a fuller flavor when I've put the bottles in my hall closet  

that sits in the hottest area of the house.

 

Iasmin

 

 

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:42:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flavored vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>

OK.  I'll bite.  How much vinegar to how many roses?  Sounds  

intriguing....

 

Kiri

_______________________________________________

 

It says a pound of roses to an arroba of vinegar.  The arroba is a  

liquid measure equivalent to about 16 -17 quarts.  I don't know if the  

weight of roses should change if one is using dried rather than fresh.  

Incidently, red roses are preferred to white, as they are supposedly  

more aromatic.

 

Elderflower vinegar is also mentioned.

 

Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:52:53 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Flavored vinegar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Betsy Marshal <betsy at softwareinnovation.com>

I'd ask where is the recipe from? I wouldn't think England would get 40

sunny days in a row...maybe they said that to ensure it got enough  

warmth overall... (just my .02 lira;) Betsy

_______________________________________________

 

You should have offered your two maravedi instead; it's from Spain. :-)

 

It's out of a 1551 edition of a Spanish agricultural manual by Gabriel  

Alonso de Herrera.  He discusses methods of making vinegar, and  

mentions a few variations on the standard wine vinegar.

 

Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:20:24 -0400

From: "Stephanie Ross" <hlaislinn at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sour beer question

To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Margaret wrote:

So my questions are: what does alegar actually taste like, is what I have

actually alegar, and can I use this stuff in cooking or should I just pour

it all out and recycle the bottles to some brewer of my acquaintance? >>>

 

What makes the braggot a "miserable failure"? Describing why you don't like

it might help us diagnose what its problem is. I made alegar using the

mother of vinegar found in Bragg's apple cider vinegar. The base was a

homemade stout my then boyfriend had made, very dark and malty. The alegar

tastes like malt vinegar, which is essentially what it is. If what you have

is alegar, then it should be reasonably clear, with  cloudy strands

floating in it that is the mother. It should smell like vinegar. If it

doesn't smell strongly of vinegar, has stuff floating on top or is very

cloudy, throw it out.

 

I made three different kinds of vinegar for a class on sauces from Le

Viandier I taught a few years back. My favorite was the cyser vinegar. I

had a couple of cups left over after wracking cyser, so i threw some of the

mother into it and let it sit. It smells wonderfully fruity and is a bit

sweet. The alegar was excellent too. The other I made was vin aigre using

the left overs from a bottle of wine from a party. A friend who is pretty

much an expert on making vinegar told me that i should not have been able

to make vinegar from the ale and wine using the cider mother. Different

bases take different mothers she said, but I had no trouble.

 

~Aislinn~

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:41:12 -0600

From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] sugar cane vinegar

To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>

 

Devra mentioned:

<<< In one of her historical novels about 1830's New Orleans, Barbara Hambley

discussed the cutting and processing of sugar cane. According to her, the juice

must be boiled down fairly soon after crushing the cane and extracting it, or

the juice will go sour. She's usually fairly reliable in the historical

trivia end of things. >>>

 

Thanks, Devra. My first thought when I read this was that, yes, with

the sugar concentration mentioned by someone else sugar cane might

well turn into vinegar rather than ferment. Perhaps it is a race

between which type of beastie gets a foothold first. But I also

remembered our discussions about wine turning into vinegar, so it's

not that simple. Hmmm. So wine can turn to vinegar, but I don't

remember any comments about the opposite happening.

 

Anyway, this tickled my memory about sugar cane vinegar and I went

rummaging in my stash of odd-ball food items (TM), and yes this list

is largely responsible for me having such a thing, and I found the

bottle that I was thinking of.

 

"Sugar Cane Vinegar", Made in Martinique since 1885. 16.9 oz. Product

of France. 5% acetic acid. "Sugar Cane Vinegar - This Sugar cane

vinegar has a subtil (sic) sweet taste and will bring in every dish a

unic (sic) flavor of the Island it comes from. Great in al

vinaigrettes and salads. Because of the high mineral content in this

100% natural sugar cane vinegar, a deposit could appear that does not

affect the quality of this product."

 

Hmmm. Under Nutrition Facts, it says "Calories 0" and "Total Carb.

0g". All the sugar in the sugar cane syrup is gone?! I suspect since

they get to round down in their labeling that with a serving size of

1/2 tbsp that there is some still there, but just doesn't have to be

declared.

 

Stefan

--------

THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad   Kingdom of Ansteorra

     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas

 

 

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 07:36:18 EST

From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sugar cane vinegar

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

 

StefanliRous at austin.rr.com writes:

<<< My first  thought when I read this was that, yes, with

the sugar concentration mentioned by someone else sugar cane might

well turn into vinegar rather than ferment >>>

 

It has to be alcohol first, as acetic acid is made from alcohol by  aerobic

bacteria, most times it forms a mass known as a "Vinegar Mother". As someone

who makes both wine and mead on occasion, trust me on this. I've made vinegar

too.

 

Corwyn

 

 

Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:22:18 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alliger - Fwd: [Medieval-Sciences] Egg

        Question

To: euriol at ptd.net,    Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

On Jan 30, 2008, at 7:36 AM, euriol wrote:

 

> I got the following email on another list, and thought I could get

> help here on the first question. What is alliger?

> I have a guess that it is something akin to vinegar, but made from

> "ale" or "beer" as opposed to "wine"?

> Can anyone confirm or deny this? I'm at work and don't have access

> to any of my books.

 

Yes, it's ale that has soured according to the same type of bacterial

action as vinegar. Instead of Vin Aigre or sour wine, it's Ale Aigre,

or sour ale.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:39:49 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "Medieval Vinegars"

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Malt vinegar can either be fermented from barley malt (alegar), fermented

from the maltose in beetroot or  be a "non-brewed condiment" consisting of

acetic acid, citric acid and caramel coloring. You want the alegar.

 

Bear

 

<<< Just spotted this in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/dining/29vinegars.html?_r=1&;ref=dining&oref=slogin

 

Personally, I always figured Ale-gar to be similar to malt vinegar. Is

that an incorrect assumption??

 

Ilsebet >>>

 

 

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:15:24 -0600

From: "Lisa" <ladyemp at sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Request for food info some OOP

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< 2. I'm doing some vinegar research and I recall a friend gifting us with

something called "five thieves vinegar"? which had a story behind it

dating to possibly the black plague.? Does anyone have a recipe for this

and/or a source for the backstory?

 

-Ardenia >>>

 

I found this in one of my herb books, The Illustrated Herb Encyclopedia:

 

Four Thieves Vinegar or Marseilles Vinegar

    This recipe was still used until the late 19th century, although without

the camphor (a good idea, considering it can be toxic when taken internally)

and rue.  Some versions even eliminated the garlic!.  Herbs can be used

dried or fresh.

4 oz each:

rosemary tops

sage flowers,

garlic, sliced

2 oz lavendar flowers

1 1/2 oz rue flowers (if available)

1 oz camphor

1 tsp cloves, ground

1 gallon wine vinegar

 

combine all ingredients in a bottle and let stand 7 days, occasionally  

giving it a good shake.  Strain out the solid.

 

 

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:22:58 -0600

From: Jennifer Carlson <talana1 at hotmail.com>

To: Cooks list <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

 

I have a bottle of homemade vinegar, cultured off a wine pressing that went wrong. Diarmaid and I used most of it educating fighters and Boy Scouts about the joys of oxymel, and kept back about a liter for cooking and medicinal purposes.  We put it in a bottle, fed it the remains of any bottle of wine we didn't finish, and eventually it developed a "mother", and has been happily working every since - about 6-7 years now.  As we use the vinegar, we refill the bottle with wine and let the "mother" it do its thing.

 

The "mother" is kind of hard to describe - It's a living organism.  I think its a particular kind of fungus.  

 

There are places online where you can buy vinegar-making kits.  There's a good article on homemade vinegar at: http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/the-virtue-of-homemade-vinegar

 

It's absurdly simple to make and keep up, and better that the stuff in the stores.

 

Talana

 

 

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:47:38 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar OT

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

There have been a number of news reports of late that mention

a new study where Japanese scientists at the Central Research Institute

in Tokyo, published a report in the July 8 issue of American Chemical

Society's /Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry/. In a nutshell,

they found supporting evidence that acetic acid can help deter the

accumulation of body fat (in mice), even when the mice were fed a

high-fat diet.

http://health.msn.com/blogs/daily-dose-post.aspx?post=1188353

 

I came across this recipe today that promises "To make a fat person

become leane".

It dates from 1569 in the English version and begins "Take foure ounces

of warme Vineger..."

 

To make a fat person become leane.

Take foure ounces of warme Vineger, and put therein a quantitie of the pouder of Pepper, and giue it vnto the partie to drinke many mornings fasting, and he will become leane, or else giue him to drinke euerie morning of the Wine of sower Pomegranates, two scruples with Oximell, or water.

 

Alessio. A verye excellent and profitable booke conteining sixe hundred foure score and odde experienced medicines - the fourth and finall booke of his secretes 1569

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:17:25 -0500

From: Robert Dunn <robert.arthur.dunn at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

 

<< Any sources on vinegar making?

 

Gunthar >>

 

Glad to see I'm not alone in my madness of vinegar making!

 

There are a lot of sources for vinegar making from the 1700-1800  

period, but prior to that I haven't had much luck with primary sources.

 

I found a French encyclopedia of mechanical processes from 1789(ish-

it's downstairs right now) which stated that those who entered the  

Corporatif du Maitres Vinegriers were sworn to secrecy.  So much for  

getting first-hand accounts of the Orleans method.

 

There are several online sources in GoogleBooks that detail production  

methods from Orleans to the Pasteur process.  Try searching for  

"treatise vinegar manufacture."

 

There is however the Qi Min Yao Shu, a multi volume work from China in  

the  3rd(?) century which contains methods for making 22 types of  

vinegar.  I have yet to find a translation, later edition, etc near me.

 

I'm actually entering my first vinegar (alegar) today at the St.  

Eligius event in Dragonship Haven, EK.

 

I made a brown ale based on a narrative from Digby, an alegar in an  

oak cask (Orleans Method) from the brown ale, and a horseradish sauce  

using the alegar I made instead of vinegar.

 

Bob

Thomas of Silverwood

 

 

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:59:49 -0800 (PST)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Qi min yao shu, was: Making vinegar?

 

According to the Library of Congress, 'Qi min yao shu' is 6th Century AD.  Looking at the entries, not all of this work is cookery.  A lot deals with agriculture.  This record that I found was the first that gives 'cookery' as a subject

 

Jia, Sixie, 6th cent.

Qi min yao shu. Yin shi bu fen / Jia Sixie zhuan ; Shi Shenghan jin shi.

Di 1 ban. Beijing : Zhongguo shang ye chu ban she, 1984.

222 p. ; 19 cm.

Zhongguo peng ren gu ji cong kan

Cookery, Chinese--Early works to 1800.

 

Unfortunately, this book has not been translated. The version that I have found translated, is about agriculture, not cookery:

 

Shi, Shenghan.

A preliminary survey of the book Ch?i min yao shu : an agricultural encyclopaedia of the 6th century /  Shih Sheng-han. 2d ed.  Peking : Science Press : distributed by Guozi Shudian, 1962, t.p. 1974.

x, 107 p. ;  21 cm.

At head of title: Ch?i min yao shu kai lun.

Passages quoted in Chinese with English translation.

Jia, Sijie, 6th cent.  Qi min yao shu.

Agriculture--Early works to 1800.

Agriculture--China.

 

So I am not sure how beneficial the English version would be to cookery.

 

Looking on WorldCat, I found that Washington State University, in Pullman, has an English version of this title, although not the same publisher.  It still is listed as being under 'Agriculture'.

 

The English translated version I listed above has a lot of copies in many universities.  

 

Univ. of Calif., Riverside; UCLA; UC Berkeley; UC Davis; Stanford Univ.; Calif. State Univ., Los Angeles; Claremont Colleges; San Francisco Public Library; Univ. of Arizona, Tucson; Brigham Young Univ.; Univ. of Utah;  St. Johns College, Santa Fe; Univ. of Oregon, Eugene; Portland State Univ.; Univ. of Colorago, Boulder; Univ. of Denver; Univ. of Washington, Seattle; Univ. of British Columbia, Vancouver; Texas A&M; Univ. of Nebraska, Lincoln; Univ. of Regina; Univ. of Saskatchewan; Univ. of Missouri, Columbia; Univ. of Missouri, St. Louis; Washington Univ. St. Louis; Univ. of Iowa; Iowa State Univ.; Univ. of Minnesota, Minneapolis; Southern Illinois Univ.; Univ. of Illinois, Urbana; Univ. of Wisconsin, Madison; Univ. of Wisconsin, Milwaukee; Carthage College; Indiana Univ.; Northwestern Univ.; Vanderbilt Univ.; Univ. of Tennessee, Knoxville; Miami Univ., Ohio; Cleveland Public Lib.; Univ. of Akron; Univ. of Kentucky; Michigan State Univ.; Univ. of

Michigan, Ann Arbor; Buffalo Public Library; Univ. of Rochester; Cornell Univ.; SUNY Binghamton; Brooklyn Public Lib.; Columbia Univ.; New York State Lib.; New York City Pub. Lib.; McMaster University; Univ. of Pittsburg; Penn State Univ.; Univ. of Penn., Philadelphia; Duke Univ.; North Carolina State Univ.; Univ. of North Carolina, Chapel Hill; George Washington Univ.; Univ. of Delaware, Newark; Univ. of Maryland, College Park; Princeton Univ.; Univ. of Vermont, Burlington; Amherst College; Boston College; Brandais Unive.; Harvard Univ.;

Dartmouth College; Univ. of Connecticut; Yale Univ., Univ. of Rhode Island; Dalhousie Univ.; Univ. of Sheffield, UK; Cambridge Univ.; Oxford Univ.; Massey Univ. NZ; Latrobe Univ. Victoria, Australia; Australian National Univ. Camberra; State Lib. of South Australia; Univ. of Queensland; Univ. of Western Australia; Univ. of Melbourne.

 

I skipped some of the smaller American libraries, the European libraries, and the Asian libraries. I also skipped over all the Chinese language copies.

 

So, Thomas of Silverwood, there probably is a copy somewhere close to you.  I am just not sure that this English copy has the vinegar recipes in it, but not having seen this book, I cannot be sure.

 

The first book that I mentioned is not translated into English, but it does deal with cookery.  Perhaps Adamantius' wife or MIL could translate this for us?

 

Huette

Caid

 

On 11/13/09 11:17 PM, "Robert Dunn" <robert.arthur.dunn at gmail.com>

wrote:

<<< There are a lot of sources for vinegar making from the

1700-1800 period, but prior to that I haven't had much luck with

primary sources.

 

There is however the Qi Min Yao Shu, a multi volume work from China in

the? 3rd(?) century which contains methods for making 22 types of

vinegar. I have yet to find a translation, later edition, etc near me.

 

Thomas of Silverwood >>>

 

 

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:26:19 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

 

On Nov 14, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Robert Dunn wrote:

<<< There are a lot of sources for vinegar making from the 1700-1800  

period, but prior to that I haven't had much luck with primary  

sources. >>>

 

Sounds like a challenge to me--

 

There's an Elder Vinegar recipe in Martha Washington's Booke of  

Cookery on pages 168-169.

 

There's also this recipe found via medieval cookery.com:

To torne Wyne to Vyneagyr or Ale to Aleger or syder to Aysell. Take a  

pott and fyll hit Full of wyne Asell or gode Ale And stoppe well the  

mowth that no thyng cum yn nor owte And do hit in A vessell full of  

water and set the vessell on the fyre And let the pot of wyne boyle in  

the same A long while tyll hit be turnyd.

 

This is an excerpt from Gentyll manly Cokere (MS Pepys 1047)

(England, ca. 1500)

The original source can be found at James L. Matterer's website

 

---------------

 

If you need to make provision for vinegar, empty the barrel of your  

old vinegar, then wash it thoroughly with very good vinegar and not  

with water either hot or cold: then, put the washings in a wooden or  

clay vessel, not copper or iron, and here let these slops rest and  

settle: then pour off the clear vinegar, and put it back in the  

barrel, and fill with more good vinegar, and put it in the sun and the  heat, and at night and in damp weather cover it up: and when the sun  

comes out again, uncover it again.

 

This is an excerpt from Le Menagier de Paris (France, 1393 - Janet  

Hinson, trans.) The original source can be found at David Friedman's  

website

 

-------

 

There's this book in EEBO-TCP.

 

Charas, Moyse, 1619-1698. The royal pharmacop?ea, galenical and  

chymical according to the practice of the most eminent and learned  

physitians of France : and publish'd with their several approbations.  

1678.

 

Chapter X is "Of Vinegars" and features descriptions and recipes.

 

This one should be part of ECCO; earlier editions in EEBO.

 

The way to get wealth, or, A new and easie way to make twenty three  

sorts of wine, equal to that of France : with their vertues. Also to  

make cyder, mead, rum, rack, brandy and cordial waters : pickles,  

vinegar and the mystery of vintners. Also divers physical receipts to  

help a bad memory ... : to which is added, A help to discourse ... By  

Thomas Lupton and Thomas Tryon 3rd ed. 1710?

 

There are two modern titles in English that turn up:

 

Marie Nadine Antol. The incredible secrets of vinegar : the  

quintessential guide to the history, lore, varieties, and healthful  

benefits of vinegar / Garden City Park, NY : Avery Pub. Group, 1999.  

ISBN: 1583330054 9781583330050.  Also listed as 2000

 

Renata Salvarani. The land of balsamic vinegar : the great vinegars  

of Modena and Reggio Emilia: history, landscapes and traditions /  

Milan : Giorgio Mondadori, 2002 ; ISBN: 8837417853 9788837417857

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:42:03 -0500

From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

 

<<< Glad to see I'm not alone in my madness of vinegar making! >>>

 

Rumpolt has a section on vinegar, I haven't tried translating it yet.  It's about 3 pages long, including a nice picture of jugs and barrels, that presumably contain vinegar.

 

Sharon

 

 

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:32:51 -0800 (PST)

From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Any sources on vinegar making?

 

<< Any sources on vinegar making?  >>

 

Rumpolt, 1581, pages CXCVI to CXCVIII ("Wie man guten Essig machen soll" etc) which seems to be based on an older tradition of "Kellermeisterey"

 

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00015958/images/index.html?id=00015958&;fip=87.149.73.33&no=26&seite=94

 

The 16th c. translation of the Geoponica ("Der veldbaw", 1567) contains  a chapter on vinegar: "Wie man Essig machen soll auff mancherley wey?...".

 

Wasn't there something on vinegar in Alessio Piedemontese (and in Johann Jakob Wecker)?

 

E.

 

 

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800 (PST)

From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Any sources on vinegar making?

 

There is also a chapter in the "Ruralia commoda" by Petrus de Crescentiis, a handbook of agriculture from around 1300.

 

It has been edited and translated well into the 16th century.

 

On this page of a beautyful late 15th century edition you can find the beginning of the chapter on vinegar

 

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00041510/images/index.html?id=00041510&;fip=87.149.73.33&no=9&seite=158

 

It starts with: "Qualiter fiat acetum" and "ACetum fiat hoc modo" (Vinegar is prepared in the following way ...)

 

E.

 

 

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:00:19 -0800 (PST)

From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Cc: foodmanuscriptproject at yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Sca-cooks] RUMPOLT 1581 is now online at HAB

 

Rumpolt 1581 is now online at the HAB digital library:

http://diglib.hab.de/drucke/2-3-oec-2f/start.htm

 

The chapter on vinegar is here:

http://diglib.hab.de/drucke/2-3-oec-2f/start.htm?image=00492

 

Must I say that this is wonderful?

 

E.

 

 

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:54:53 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar Making Instructions - England (or

        other  countries) 1500

 

On Apr 30, 2010, at 2:11 AM, David Walddon wrote:

<<< I am looking for instructions on making vinegar in 1500 England.

Anyone have a source?

 

Eduardo >>>

 

It's not 1500 but the English volume Maison rustique, or The countrey  

farme has full instructions.

CHAP. XIX.

 

Of the manner of making Vineger.

 

_VIneger commeth through the defect of wine, as wee may vnderstand by  

that which is gone before: the riotousnesse and pleasure of men, hath  

beene the cause that Vineger came euer in request, not onely for  

sauces, but also for many other vses: It shall not therefore be  

thought vnreaso|nable to vse a word or two about making of Vineger.

 

The most common way to make Vineger is on this sort: They vse to take  

good wine, and therewithall to fill the vessell to the halfe, leauing  

it vnstopt and set in a hot place, as in some corne loft, or in some  

gutter betwixt the tiles.

 

If you desire to make Vinegar in hast, you must cast into your wine,  

salt, pepper, and soure leuen mingled together: and yet to make it the  

more hastly, you must heat red hot some stone, tile, or gad of steele,  

and put it all hot into the wine, or else the mouth of the vessell  

must stand alwaies open, or else the vessell must be set in the Sunne  

three or foure daies and therewithall a little salt put in the  

vessell: or else fill a new earthen pot that is not halfe baked with  

wine, and stop it well, afterward put it in a kettle full of boiled  

water vpon the fire, and letting it there remaine a long time in the  

boiling water, it will grow soure; or else put into the wine a beete  

root stamped, or a radish root, or medlars, ceruises or hornes,  

mulberries, vnripe sloes, or a shiue of barley bread new baked: or  

else you must take of the blossomes of the cer|uise tree in there  

season, and drying them in the Sunne after the manner of rose-leaues,  

either in a glasse vessell, or in one of blacke earth, fill vp the  

same vessell with pure Vinegar or Wine, and so set it forth againe  

into the Sun or in the chimny end to the heate of the fire, and in a  

short time it will become strong and very sharpe Vineger: but if you  

would restore it againe to his former state of wine, then you must  

cast, of colewort roots into it.

 

CHAP. XX.

 

Of some obseruations and instructions concerning Vineger.

 

_TO make strong vineger, take the fruit of the cornell tree, when it  

beginneth to grow red, and of bramble berries, such as grow in the  

fields, when they are halfe ripe, drie them, make them into powder,  

and with a little strong Vineger, you shall make little prettie  

balles, which you shall drie in the Sunne, afterward you must take  

wine, and heate it, and when it is hot put into it this composition,  

and it will bee turned very speedily into very strong Vineger.

 

To make Vineger with corrupted wine: take a rotten and corrupt wine  

and boile it, taking away all the scum that riseth in the boiling  

thereof, thus let it continue vp|on the fire till it be boyled away  

one third part, then put it into a vessell wherein hath bin Vineger,  

putting thereto some cheruile, couer the vessell in such sort, that  

there get no aire into it, and in a short time it will proue good and  

strong Vineger.

 

To make drie Vineger to carrie whither a man listeth, take of wild  

cherries when they begin to be ripe (and yet the fruit of the cornell  

tree is better) of mulberies when they be red, and vnripe grapes that  

are very thicke, and of wild a cornes be|fore they bee ripe, stampt  

all together, then take of the best Vineger you can finde, and mingle  

them all together, make vp the masse into small loaues, setting them  

to drie in the Sunne: and when you would make Vineger, temper some of  

these small loaues in wine, and you shall haue very good Vineger.  

Otherwise, take the vnripe iuice of corne that is very greene, and  

stampe the same putting Vineger thereto, and thereof make a past,  

wherof you shall make little loaues to be dried in the Sunne, and when  

you would haue Vineger, temper of these loaues in so much wine as you  

shall see sufficient, and you shall haue very good Vineger.

 

To make rose-vineger, take good white Vineger, and put therein red  

roses, either new or dried, keeping them many daies in the vessell,  

and afterward taking them out, put them in another glasse, and so  

keepe them in a coole place: after the same manner you may make  

Vineger of elder-tree flowers.

 

To make Vineger without wine, put into a vessell soft and daintie  

peaches, and vpon them pearched barley, letting them putrifie all a  

whole day, then straine them and vse the liquor: or else take old figs  

and burnt barley, together with the inner parts of orenges, put all  

these into a vessell, and stir them vp very well and oft, and whenas  

they are become putrified and resolued, straine them out and vse the  

liquor.

 

To make sweet Vineger, take fiue pints of strong Vineger, and with as  

much new wine reserued vpon the treading out of the grapes, adde some  

quantitie of pitch, and and put altogether in a vessell which you must  

stop very carefully: and after that all these haue continued together  

for the space of some thirtie daies, you may vse there|of for Vineger:  

otherwise, take a vessell of new wine, and mingle it with two vessels  

of Vineger, and boile them together till the third part be consumed.  

Some doe adde three vessels of spring water vnto two of new wine and  

one of Vineger, boiling them all together vntill the third part be  

consumed.

 

To make mightie strong Vineger, drie the grosse of grapes two whole  

daies, then put it in new wine, put thereto some of the vnripe iuice  

of corne, and you shall make a strong Vineger, whereof you may haue  

the vse within seuen daies after: or otherwise, put pellitorie of  

Spaine into Vineger and it will make it strong. Furthermore, if you  

boile the fourth or fifth part of Vineger vpon the fire, and put it  

vnto that which is before prescribed, putting it after all this in the  

Sunne some eight daies, you shall haue a pleasant and strong vineger.  

The rootes of couch-grasse when they are old, boiled grapes, the  

leaues of the wild peare tree stamped, the roots of brambles and whay,  

the quicke coales of burned acornes, and boiled ciche pease and hot  

tiles, euen euery one of these by themselues being cast into Vineger  

doe make the same strong.

 

Pepper vineger is made by casting into vineger or hanging therein  

whole pep|per made vp in a linnen cloth, for the space of eight daies,

You shall know if there be any water in the vineger, if you put into  

it any Salni|trum, for then if it swell vp as though it would boile,  

you may boldly say that there is water in it.

 

To make vineger good to helpe digestion, and for your health, take  

eight drams of the sea onion, and two pints of vineger, put them  

together into a vessell, and vvith them as much of pepper, mints, and  

iuniper berries, then vse it afterward.

 

To make vineger of sea onions, you must put ten such onions salted  

into fiftie quartes of sweet new vvine, and foure pints and a halfe of  

strong vineger, and if it be not sharp enough, then twice so much, in  

a pot holding fiftie four quarts, & boile them till the fourth part  

bee consumed: or if the wine bee sweete, it must be boiled to the  

spending of the third part, but such wine may be of his owne  

distilling out of the grapes before they be trodden and very cleere:  

otherwise, put into a vessell thirtie pints of strong vineger, wherein  

let steepe for the space of twelue daies, the inward part of a white  

sea onion which hath beene in the Sunne thirtie daies: after that,  

take the vineger and let it settle and abide in some place where you  

wil to vse it afterward. Dioscorides in his one and twentieth chapter  

of his fourth booke discribeth another manner of it.

It is to obserued and noted that all sorts of vineger are best helped  

to keepe their tartnesse, by putting into their vessels at the bung  

hole a sticke of red withie.

Pages 618-619

 

Estienne, Charles, 1504-ca. 1564.

Maison rustique, or The countrey farme? And the husbandrie of France,  

Italie, and Spaine, reconciled and made to agree with ours here in  

England: by Geruase Markham.

London : Printed by Adam Islip for Iohn Bill, 1616.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:41:48 -0700 (PDT)

From: wheezul at canby.com

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar Making Instructions - England (or

        other  countries) 1500

 

<<< It's not 1500 but the English volume Maison rustique, or The countrey farme has full instructions.

CHAP. XIX.

 

Of the manner of making Vineger. >>>

 

Greetings Maestro of the good smelling cologne...

 

K?chenmeisterei from 1516 has vinegar making instructions (Part V,

Chapters 1-12).  I could transcribe and translate if you'd like.  There

are earlier editions (1487) of this cookbook (also at the same site as

below). I haven't had time to hunt through 15th century German cook books

yet with a cataloging zeal, but there may well be more instructions to be

found.  Do you want me to look?

 

The recipes/instructions:

 

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_81

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_82

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_83

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_84

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_85

 

Quickly scanning I think the recipes are approximately as follows:

 

I. is sour grape based using old vinegar as a starter

II. is taking aged wine and setting it in the sun or by the fire

III. is old vinegar and wine in a crock, simmered in a kettle of water

IV. is wine simmered with a egg size piece of sourdough in a cloth

V. is boiled wine buried in the cellar for three days and then reboiled

VI. is made in a spherical glass (distilling glass?) or a crock. Wine is

simmered and fortified with red willow wood, ginger and long pepper and

has either sourdough from a raised bread, or hot baked bread added.

VII. Are instructions to make quick vinegar.

VIII. How to transport vinegar over land.

IX. is a baked loaf of rye and vinegar mother, repeatedly soaked in

vinegar and oven dried.  Vinegar on a journey can be made by putting

pieces of the loaf in wine.

X.  If I understand this correctly this is vinegar made from grape seeds.

XI. Instructions for beer vinegar - beer, beer yeast, herbs and white

willow wood.

XII. Another method of beer vinegar production using white willow wood.

 

Katrine in Three Mountains

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 11:43:03 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

 

<<< Where did you find that distilled vinegar is made from petroleum products?

Arianwen ferch Arthur >>>

 

It's one of those oft repeated Urban Legends with a factual basis.  Vinegar

is a weak acetic acid (5% is the common vinegar) produced by natural

fermentation.  IIRC, most white vinegar is distilled from grain then cut

with water.  Unlike other vinegars which have small amounts of other

chemicals, white vinegar has been distilled to be pure acetic acid.  Acetic

acid is produced from petroleum for industrial purposes.  Chemically, there

is no distinction between distilled acetic acids. If you pick up a bottle

of white distilled vinegar from the grocery and a bottle of petroleum based

acetic acid from the pharmacy, other than concentration there should be no

discernable difference between the products.  The caveat is that petroleum

based acetic acid is normally not prepared in a manner to produce an

FDA-accepted food grade product.

 

I find distilled white vinegar best for cleaning and as a mordant, so I

probably wouldn't care if they did make it from petroleum.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 12:01:05 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

 

Distilled white vinegar is commonly produced from wheat.  While distillation

removes most of the impurities, minute amounts of gluten proteins can be in

the solution.  Beyond that it is a question of the sensitivity of the

recipient.

 

Technically, vinegar is produced from natural fermentation while acetic acid

can be from any source.  From FDA Food Decision 140 (issued 27 Feb 1912),

"Acetic acid diluted - The product made by diluting acetic acid is not

vinegar and when intended for food purposes must be free from harmful

impurities and sold under its own name." The policy was reissued in 1952

and after a study of the trace components of vinegar and acetic acid, the

current policy was formulated in 1969.

 

"POLICY:

 

Acetic acid is generally recognized as safe for use in foods if it is of

"food-grade" and is used in accord with good manufacturing processes.

 

Acetic acid is considered "food-grade" if it complies with the

specifications in Food Chemicals Codex.

 

Diluted acetic acid is not vinegar. When used as an ingredient in food, it

should be declared by its name, "acetic acid" or "diluted acetic acid".

 

The labeling of a food in which acetic acid is used is considered misleading

if it implies or suggests that the article contains or was prepared with

vinegar. Acetic acid should not be substituted for vinegar in pickled

products which consumers customarily expect to be prepared with vinegar.

 

Issued: 7/25/69

Reissued: 12/3/73, 10/1/80

Revised: 2/1/89"

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 17:54:19 +0000

From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

 

Bear- you beat me to the punch but excellently put about the gluten sensitivity. I will add that in the past people who were diagnosed with celiac disease, like me, were given a rap sheet a mile long with foods to avoid. At the top of these original lists mustards, like French's and Dijon were listed and white distilled vinegar.  Now, it is believed that the distillation process reduces the gluten protein to a safe level. The German Celiac Association states that 98% gluten free is safe for use. This is not 100% gluten free and for some with severe sensitivity this could be a problem.

 

Our family is very brand loyal because of how food is processed and the concern of cross contamination or sudden change in ingredients

 

Aelina Vesterlundr aka the Saami

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 11:43:03 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

 

<<< Where did you find that distilled vinegar is made from petroleum products?

Arianwen ferch Arthur >>>

 

It's one of those oft repeated Urban Legends with a factual basis.  Vinegar

is a weak acetic acid (5% is the common vinegar) produced by natural

fermentation.  IIRC, most white vinegar is distilled from grain then cut

with water.  Unlike other vinegars which have small amounts of other

chemicals, white vinegar has been distilled to be pure acetic acid.  Acetic

acid is produced from petroleum for industrial purposes.  Chemically, there

is no distinction between distilled acetic acids. If you pick up a bottle

of white distilled vinegar from the grocery and a bottle of petroleum based

acetic acid from the pharmacy, other than concentration there should be no

discernable difference between the products.  The caveat is that petroleum

based acetic acid is normally not prepared in a manner to produce an

FDA-accepted food grade product.

 

I find distilled white vinegar best for cleaning and as a mordant, so I

probably wouldn't care if they did make it from petroleum.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 12:01:05 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

 

Distilled white vinegar is commonly produced from wheat.  While distillation

removes most of the impurities, minute amounts of gluten proteins can be in

the solution.  Beyond that it is a question of the sensitivity of the

recipient.

 

Technically, vinegar is produced from natural fermentation while acetic acid

can be from any source.  From FDA Food Decision 140 (issued 27 Feb 1912),

"Acetic acid diluted - The product made by diluting acetic acid is not

vinegar and when intended for food purposes must be free from harmful

impurities and sold under its own name." The policy was reissued in 1952

and after a study of the trace components of vinegar and acetic acid, the

current policy was formulated in 1969.

 

"POLICY:

 

Acetic acid is generally recognized as safe for use in foods if it is of

"food-grade" and is used in accord with good manufacturing processes.

 

Acetic acid is considered "food-grade" if it complies with the

specifications in Food Chemicals Codex.

 

Diluted acetic acid is not vinegar. When used as an ingredient in food, it

should be declared by its name, "acetic acid" or "diluted acetic acid".

 

The labeling of a food in which acetic acid is used is considered misleading

if it implies or suggests that the article contains or was prepared with

vinegar. Acetic acid should not be substituted for vinegar in pickled

products which consumers customarily expect to be prepared with vinegar.

 

Issued: 7/25/69

Reissued: 12/3/73, 10/1/80

Revised: 2/1/89"

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 17:54:19 +0000

From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

 

Bear- you beat me to the punch but excellently put about the gluten sensitivity. I will add that in the past people who were diagnosed with celiac disease, like me, were given a rap sheet a mile long with foods to avoid. At the top of these original lists mustards, like French's and Dijon were listed and white distilled vinegar.  Now, it is believed that the distillation process reduces the gluten protein to a safe level. The German Celiac Association states that 98% gluten free is safe for use. This is not 100% gluten free and for some with severe sensitivity this could be a problem.

 

Our family is very brand loyal because of how food is processed and the concern of cross contamination or sudden change in ingredients

 

Aelina Vesterlundr aka the Saami

 

 

From: jlbqk6 at GMAIL.COM

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making

Date: October 2, 2011 7:33:31 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

 

You can purchase the mother of vinegar directly from some retailers as well:

 

http://www.store.homebrew4less.com/Mother-Of-Vinegar/products/871/

 

And yes, you can make vinegar from mead. Also from beer and any other fermented beverage.  Each will produce a different vinegar.

 

Korpr

 

 

From: rosamistica at EVERGREENES.ORG

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making

Date: October 2, 2011 6:43:42 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

 

The easiest way to get the mother is to buy some braggs apple cider vinegar, it is good quality raw vinegar and comes with the mother (check the label.)  Put some mother in the alcohol.  I don't know if mead has a high enough alcohol content, but I would love to know how it works for you!

--

Rosamistica Tomacelli de Greene

 

 

From: jlbqk6 at GMAIL.COM

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making

Date: October 2, 2011 7:33:31 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

 

You can purchase the mother of vinegar directly from some retailers as well:

 

http://www.store.homebrew4less.com/Mother-Of-Vinegar/products/871/

 

And yes, you can make vinegar from mead. Also from beer and any other fermented beverage.  Each will produce a different vinegar.

 

Korpr

 

 

From: rosamistica at EVERGREENES.ORG

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making

Date: October 2, 2011 6:43:42 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

 

The easiest way to get the mother is to buy some braggs apple cider vinegar, it is good quality raw vinegar and comes with the mother (check the label.)  Put some mother in the alcohol.  I don't know if mead has a high enough alcohol content, but I would love to know how it works for you!

--

Rosamistica Tomacelli de Greene

 

<the end>



Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org