greens-msg – 7/4/10
Period cooked, leafy vegetables.
NOTE: See also the files: lettuce-msg, cabbages-msg, beets-msg, leeks-msg, onions-msg, salads-msg.
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:39:21 -0500
From: Jane Boyko <jboyko at magma.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ukranian greens question?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I thought I would post my response to this list as well. To provide context a
response was sent to another list regarding these greens. The person
indicated that a relative said that the word natena meant pigweed and then
the individual went on to state that it was also called lambsquarters. I
thought I would do a little bit of research as to me both of these weeds are
different weeds. I do not have a diffinitive answer to that. It doesn't
surprise me that they are referred to in the same family but the websites I
provide do make it interesting. Below is my response.
Hi everyone
I find this conversation on weeds somewhat interesting as I had never heard of
pigweed being called lambsquarters in my life as they are two distinctly
different weeds in Ontario. My Ukrainian grandmother used lambsquarters all
the time to make a soup that my brothers adored. Pigsweed was never used to
feed people. That being said if the pigs got weeds to eat then they got all
of the weeds not select ones. Growing up on a farm with a large garden let
me learn the names of all common weeds as it was the one chore I detested
above all others - I hated getting dirty.
Anyways, for me pigsweed was a dark green weed that when it seeded had a large
pointy, scratchy, tassle on top. It's roots were pink. It was a straight
weed without a lot of branching and could grow quite high. Leaves were more
spherical and pointy.
The lambsquarters on the other hand had quite thin leaves that had many little
points on them. There was more moisture in this particular weed. The leaves
were a nice shade of green on the top and the back of the leaves and stem
were a silvery white which could be rubbed away but running your fingers over
it. The seeds were tiny little pale green balls - similar to ragweed seeds
(which had yellow in them) and were two shades of green. These particular
weeds had a very spread out root system and it didn't matter if the ground
was wet or dry. Very often when pulling them out they broke close to the
ground and then it was the devil's own time getting the rest of the root out.
My grandmother only used young tender plants for this soup. She also made
sorrel leaf soup.
I have gone a little further with this thought and looked for some images on
the web that will better show what I was trying to describe. The first url
is what I know of as lambsquarters:
http://www.rce.rutgers.edu/weeds/weed.asp?pname=lambsquarters
The next two urls depict pigsweed:
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/crpsl2/s80.pdf
http://www.ppws.vt.edu/scott/weed_id/amare.htm
That being said I saw on two encyclopedia sites listing lambsquarters and
pigweed in the same family. So I just called my grandmother to ask her. She
told me that the two weeds were different and that natena to her was
lambsquarters only. She prepared them the following way:
Pick, wash, blanch and strain the greens.
Fry bacon, onion and garlic until bacon is almost cooked. Add the
greens and
cook through until tender.
Serve it forth.
My grandmother also told me that her grandmother and great-grandmother
prepared their greens this way and the her family called them "wolloc" (I
have no idea how to spell this) but the Ukrainian families on either side of
hers called this type of greens natena. My grandmother grew up in Northern
Manitoba in the Mossy River region which is reasonably close to Dauphin,
Manitoba home of a major Canadian Ukrainian Festival.
Sorry for the length of this posting. I just found that the different regions
of Canada had different names for pretty much the same thing and thought I
would share what I found out about it.
Marina
On 09/11/04 01:00 pm, Kai D. Kalix wrote:
> could that be borage? It was used a least in Germany alongside and instead
> of spinach, and is in appearance as well as in taste very similar, IIRC.
> kai
>
>> Ok, I got this in the email from someone recently, and it's got me
>> scratching my head:
>>
>> "I am Ukrainian ... and I have been pondering this one for years. My
>> grandmother used to pick a wild plant which she used in cooking ... it
>> was very similar to spinach. She called it "natena", and she often
>> cooked it with cornmeal and fried onions. This was long ago, and I
>> never learned what this plant's english name is. Do you have any idea?
>> I would be so grateful if you have any suggestions."
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> -- Jadwiga
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:42:00 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ukranian greens question?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Pigweed and lambsquarters both refer to Chenopodium album, which sounds like
the lambsquarters referred to here. Pigweed is also a name for Amaranthus
retroflexus also called redroot, which is probably the pig fodder mentioned
as the description matches.
Bear
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:28:46 -0600
From: "Chass Brown" <chass at allegiance.tv>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ukranian greens question?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Well here in Oklahoma Lambsquarters grows wild and in abundance.. have eaten
it tastes alot like spinach. I like it in a forest wilted salad with wild
onions and such :)
Chass of Rundel of Ansteorra aka of the SCA aka
Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable Chariot
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:04:15 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Greens with sage
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> from a 15th c. manuscript, middle dutch manuscript, ms UB Gent 1035 "Good
> and noble food" (formerly "Kitchen book"). Translation by Christianne
> Muusers http://www.coquinaria.nl/kooktekst/Edelikespijse1.htm
> 2.15 Greens. Boil them and cut them. Then bray pepper, sage, parsley and
> some bread crumbs, tempered with the [boiling]water of the greens. Mix it
> in a pan and [add] a cup of wine.
What greens would you-all use for this dish?
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:03:37 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Greens with sage
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Jan 21, 2005, at 3:04 PM, Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:
>> from a 15th c. manuscript, middle dutch manuscript, ms UB Gent 1035 "Good
>> and noble food" (formerly "Kitchen book"). Translation by Christianne
>> Muusers http://www.coquinaria.nl/kooktekst/Edelikespijse1.htm
>
>> 2.15 Greens. Boil them and cut them. Then bray pepper, sage, parsley and
>> some bread crumbs, tempered with the [boiling]water of the greens. Mix it
>> in a pan and [add] a cup of wine.
>
> What greens would you-all use for this dish?
The word in the Dutch version is "Bladgroenten" - which looks to me
something like "blade greens" (WARNING: I don't know any dutch).
I would think that all of the "coles" would be appropriate (e.g.
cabbage, kale, etc...), as well as spinach and beet greens. The recipe
for "Diuers Sallets Boiled" [A new booke of Cookerie, J. Murrell] calls
for spinach, but says it can be made with all sorts of other vegetables
(Borage, Buglosse, Endive, Suckory (?), Cauliflower, Sorrel, Marigold
leaves, Watercress, Leeks, Onions, Asparagus, Rocket, Alexanders).
- Doc
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:18:03 -0500
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Geens with sage
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:03:37 -0500, Daniel Myers
<edouard at medievalcookery.com> wrote:
> he word in the Dutch version is "Bladgroenten" - which looks to me
> something like "blade greens" (WARNING: I don't know any dutch).
>
> I would think that all of the "coles" would be appropriate (e.g.
> cabbage, kale, etc...), as well as spinach and bee greens. The recipe
> for "Diuers Sallets Boiled" [A new booke of Cookerie, J. Murrell] calls
> for spinach, but says it can be made with all sorts of other vegetables
> (Borage, Buglosse, Endive, Suckory (?), Cauliflower, Sorrel, Marigold
> leaves, Watecress, Leeks, Onions, Asparagus, Rocket, Alexanders).
>
> - Doc
I found it online as "leaf greens" in a modern Dutch cooking site
(the magic of google) - so that is what is modernly used as.
I would say any of the non-headed greens. Spinach or Chard would go
well will the rest of that recipe as would Cress or Rocket, maybe
endive.
> From what I have seen they are pretty specific in other recipes as to what
> they are putting in them, what greens would be typical for medieval Holland?
Cadoc
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:22:56 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] swiss chard =/= beet greens?
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Am Montag, 16. Mai 2005 16:52 schrieb Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise:
> Greetings! I had heard (and told others) that swiss chard was the modern
> version of 'leaf beet'. Of course now I can't remember where I found
> that info, and some friends of mine and I were wondering about it.
> Anyone have a more concrete answer and be awake enough to produce it?
> Thank you!
According to Körber-Grohne: 'Nutzpflanzen in Deutschland von der Vorgeschichte
bis Heute', chard is of the same family (beta) as red beets (and, for that
matter, sugar beets) and the main difference is that the one was selectively
bred for leaves, the other for the root. As late as 1600, chard has thick,
fleshy roots of culinarily useful size.
Giano
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:28:30 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] swiss chard =/= beet greens?
To: Phlip <phlip at 99main.com>
Cc: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> From the OED: "1658 EVELYN Fr. Gard. (1675) 160 To procure the chard of
artichoks. 1664 {emem} Kal. Hort. (1729) 195 Transplant the Beet-chard
which you sowed in August, to have most ample Chards. 1693 {emem} De la
Quint. Compl. Gard. II. 142 Chard-Beets..that in the middle have a large
white, and thick downy Cotton-like Main shoot, and that downy
Cotton-like shoot is the true Chard used in Pottages. 1832 Veg. Subst.
Food 252 The footstalks and midribs of the leaves [of white beet]..are
stewed and eaten under the name of Swiss chard."
> From the Britannica:
"Chard, also called Swiss Chard
(species Beta vulgaris variety cicla), an edible leaf beet, a variety of
the beet of the goosefoot family (Chenopodiaceae), in which the leaves
and leafstalks, instead of the roots, have become greatly developed. The
plant has somewhat branched and thickened, but not fleshy, roots and
large leaves borne on stalks. It is grown for the tender leaves and
leafstalks; the former are boiled and served like spinach, the latter
like asparagus. Swiss chard is popular as a home-garden potherb because
of its ease of culture, productiveness, and tolerance to moderately hot
weather."
Now, this is the part that is intriguing: the leaves of root beets might
well be different than the leaves of chard, so I feel better about
regarding them as interchangeable. But which is more like the
Beta vulgaris leaves used in period? Especially before the development
of the root beet?
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:01:38 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Leafy Greens Council website...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Review from LIIWEEK:
Leafy Greens Council
The website for this trade organization features consumer information
about leafy greens such as cabbage, collards, dandelion greens, kale,
mustard greens, spinach, and Swiss chard. Provides tips for selection
and preparation, recipes, lessons plans, and downloadable coloring pages
and trading cards (featuring "Cruciferous Crusaders" characters such as
"Escarole Rex" and "Broccadactyl").
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:07:24 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] more greens website
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Again from LIIWEEK:
Produce Pete: Collard Greens
"Beet greens, collards and kale, dandelion greens, mustard greens,
spinach, Swiss chard, and turnip greens are collectively called greens."
This article provides brief background information about greens and tips
for selection, storage, and preparation. From a produce business
operator who has appeared on several TV shows.
http://www.producepete.com/shows/collardgreens.html
Vegetable Research & Information Center: Spinach
Publications on spinach as a crop in California, including "Spinach
Production in California," "Home Garden Spinach," post-harvest
information, and the USDA crop profile for spinach. From the University
of California Cooperative Extension.
http://vric.ucdavis.edu/selectnewcrop.spinach.htm
Whole Food Market: Guide to Leafy Greens
Brief descriptions of leafy greens such as arugula, beet greens, bok
choy, broccoli rabe, collards, kale, mustard greens, spinach, and Swiss
chard. Include photographs, preparation tips (raw, wilting, steaming,
braising, boiling), and recipes. From Whole Foods Market.
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/leafygreens.html
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:16:05 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Decisions, decisions...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Oh, can you get kale or a similar green veg relatively cheaply? Buttered
Worts (boil your greens with butter in the water) goes over amazingly
well for us, and is cheap.
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:43:48 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sweet Home, Alabama
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Susan Fox wrote:
> On general principles, not a blessed thing.
> However, if this is the menu that the autocrat wants me to make for
> next Twelfth Night, I got BIG problems with it.
> We can probably document the chicken and even rice with milk gravy -
> maybe as a variation of blancmange - but everything between the green
> beans and the tea is going to have documentation problems.
>
> Selene C.
The green bean problem can be remedied by substituting what I believe is
called a "mess of greens". Leafy greens cooked with bacon is a
period dish. That good old Southern boy, Bob de Nola, has several
recipes.
--
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:16:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Special diet friendly sweets - the results
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
<<< Just curious -- has anyone tried this recipe using beet tops? (I"m pretty
well convinced that's what "bleeta" is in this recipe). I haven't been able
to get my hands on a good fresh quantity to try (haven't grown beets in
years).
toodles, Margaret >>>
I've done various recipes calling for beets with both chard and beet
greens/tops; I believe I've done torta bolognese this way. Basically, as
far as I've been able to determine, chard (Beta vulgaris L. subsp. cicla)
is actually 'leaf beets'-- i.e., the beets called for in most period
recipes. Root beets are Beta vulgaris L. subsp. vulgaris.
So, I use beet leaves when I have 'em and fill out with chard.
-- Jadwiga
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:30:57 +1300
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Special diet friendly sweets - the results
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
<<< I've done various recipes calling for beets with both chard and beet
greens/tops; I believe I've done torta bolognese this way. Basically, as
far as I've been able to determine, chard (Beta vulgaris L. subsp. cicla)
is actually 'leaf beets'-- i.e., the beets called for in most period
recipes. Root beets are Beta vulgaris L. subsp. vulgaris.
So, I use beet leaves when I have 'em and fill out with chard. >>>
Incidentally, the vegetable you call Swiss chard is called silverbeet in
Australia and New Zealand.
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 11:08:15 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] When is it Plagiarism and When is it a
Redaction?
There are a number of these Wortes recipes. Have they looked at the
other versions and talked about those?
This is an excerpt from A Noble Boke off Cookry
(England, 1468)
The original source can be found at MedievalCookery.com
To mak buttered wortes tak good erbes and pik them and wesche them and
shred them and boile them in watur put ther to clarified buttur a good
quantite and when they be boiled salt them and let none otemele cum
ther in then cutt whit bred thyn in dysshes and pour on the wort.
This is an excerpt from Gentyll manly Cokere (MS Pepys 1047)
(England, ca. 1500)
The original source can be found at James L. Matterer's website
To make buttyrd Wortys. Take all maner of gode herbys that ye may
gette pyke them washe them and hacke them and boyle them vp in fayre
water and put ther to butture clarefied A grete quantite And when they
be boylde enowgh salt them but let non Ote mele come ther yn And dyse
brede in small gobbetts & do hit in dyshys and powre the wortes A pon
and serue hit furth.
Has anyone ever tried putting oatmeal in this recipe just to see what
dreadful consequences arise (well, probably it just tastes disgusting)?
Angharad
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:04:34 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Buttered wortes
On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:56 AM, Claire Clarke wrote:
<<< The original source can be found at MedievalCookery.com
To mak buttered wortes tak good erbes and pik them and wesche them and
shred them and boile them in watur put ther to clarified buttur a good
quantite and when they be boiled salt them and let none otemele cum
ther in then cutt whit bred thyn in dysshes and pour on the wort.
This is an excerpt from Gentyll manly Cokere (MS Pepys 1047)
(England, ca. 1500)
The original source can be found at James L. Matterer's website
To make buttyrd Wortys. Take all maner of gode herbys that ye may
gette pyke them washe them and hacke them and boyle them vp in fayre
water and put ther to butture clarefied A grete quantite And when they
be boylde enowgh salt them but let non Ote mele come ther yn And dyse
brede in small gobbetts & do hit in dyshys and powre the wortes A pon
and serue hit furth.
Has anyone ever tried putting oatmeal in this recipe just to see what
dreadful consequences arise (well, probably it just tastes disgusting)? >>>
Nah, I make leek and oatmeal soup frequently, which is quite good. It's pretty much just a thickening agent that releases some starch into the liquid fairly early in the cooking process (so you don't have to cook it to death before experiencing the effect, and the oat grains retain some... erm... hull integrity?).
Off the top of my head, the only example I can think of for putting oats in with greens is in some of Markham's meat pottages which also contain mixed greens and oats, IIRC. I'm sure there are other examples...
Adamantius
<the end>