olives-msg – 1/15/08
Period olives. Processing fresh olives. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: cooking-oils-msg, fd-Italy-msg, pasta-msg, pickled-foods-msg, vinegar-msg, vegetables-msg, fd-Greece-msg, fd-Mid-East-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:50:05 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Olives
I recently purchased some fresh raw olives from Giant . Would anyone care to
share any recipes or procedures for using/preserving these gems either from
period sources or modern sources? Every cookbook I have inexplicably assumes
that a person is buying already preserved olives. :-( Last year when they
were available I scraped off the coating and started some olive trees from
the seeds. This year I really would like to eat them. :-)
Ras
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:24:03 -0500
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Olives
As I understand it, fresh olives are nasty- they are made edible by pickling
in brine or preserving in oil.
Phlip
Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:54:16 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Olives
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> Every cookbook I have inexplicably assumes
> that a person is buying already preserved olives. :-(
That may be because until recently, unless you lived in an area where
olives were grown, it was a pretty safe assumption that the olives you'd
be buying were preserved. I know I was in my twenties the first time I
saw a fresh olive in a market.
From Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking":
"Anyone who has bitten into a raw olive knows that olives must somehow
be processed before they are edible. Olives are usually pickled, and
they contain a bitter glucoside called oleuropein <snip> which is
usually removed first. This has been done since Roman times by soaking
the fruit in a lye solution and then washing it thoroughly. <snip>
Today's Greek olives are as strong-tasting as they are because they have
not been treated with lye to remove the oleuropein. They are either
simply cured by packing in dry salt, or are pickled in brine, where they
undergo a lactic fermentation. Green Spanish olives are picked before
they are ripe, treated with lye, and then brined." <extraneous material
about how canned California olives are processed, snipped>
>From Cato's "De Agricultura", Andrew Dalby, trans.:
"How green olives are conserved. Before they turn black, they are to be
broken and put into water. The water is to be changed frequently. When
they have soaked sufficiently they are drained, put into vinegar, and
oil is added. 1/2 lb salt to 1 peck olives. Fennel and lentisk are put
up separately in vinegar. When you decide to mix them in, use quickly.
Pack in preserving jars. When you wish to use, take up with dry hands."
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:19:24 -0000
From: nanna at idunn.is (Nanna Rognvaldardottir)
Subject: Re: SC - Olives
Ras wrote:
>I recently purchased some fresh raw olives from Giant . Would anyone care to
>share any recipes or procedures for using/preserving these gems either from
>period sources or modern sources?
If you lived on a Greek island, you could just put them in a basket and dip
them in the ocean once a day for about ten days - I understand that is how
they are still cured around there. I do have a recipe in a book at home and
will look it up as soon as I get there.
Nanna
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:53:08 -0500
From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: SC - Re: SC-Olives, and I've got a new book
Funny you should bring this up. I just got a new book (new to me, it is a
used book) it is titled:
Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti trans. by Judith Spencer. It is said
to be a facsimile of I think a 13 or 14th century manuscript. It takes
about herbs, foods and other things and what they thought they did to you.
From the first perusal I did last night I remember that eggs yolks were
very good for you, and eggs whites especially if you ate them would make
you belch. They said the best way to cook eggs was to poach them but said
you could also boil them, but recommended what sounded like soft boiled
eggs that hard boiled would also bother you somehow.
But back to the olives, I remember reading about black olives and I was
surprised (don't ask me why) that they were a period thing. I don't
remember how they ate them though, but I was considering doing them on a
sideboard, only as a first thought.
I don't remember what it said about green olives, but I will look tonight
and get back to you.
I was going to write to the list today and ask if anyone else had looked
over the book and what they thought about it. I am, for now, treating it
as a source of information that needs verifying until I can determine it's
accuracy.
Angeline
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:13:09 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Olives
From "Lost Arts" by Lynn Alley:
"To begin the brine processing, place your clean olives in cold water and
change the water each day for 10 days. Weigh the olives down with a plate so
they all stay submerged. No need to cover at this point. This will start
leaching the bitter glucosides out of the olives. Notice the changes in both
the color and the aroma of the olives. At the end of the 10-day period, you
can make a more permanent brine solution in which to continue the process.
Add 1 cup of noniodized salt to each gallon of water. Use enough of this
brine to cover the olives. Change this solution weekly for four weeks. At
the end of four weeks, transfer the olives to a weaker brine solution until
you are ready to use them. The solution should contain 1/2 cup of noniodized
salt to each gallon of water. Just how long it will take for your olives to
become edible, I cannot say. Mine seem to take about two or three months to
really develop a rich, olivey flavor."
Or, if you prefer lye:
"First you have to find lye that contains no aluminium. You must then
carefully mix the lye with water and soak the olives in the solution for
anywhere from 10 to 30 hours. You can see the flesh of the olive change
color as the lye solution penetrates to the pit of the olive. When the
solution has thoroughly penetrated the olive, you must then dispose of it in
some suitable manner and the olive must again be soaked in water, this time
to leach the lye out of them."
Nanna
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:52:36 -0500
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding Fighters
As a fighter, part time carpenter (in florida), and someone who takes
his health seriously, I tried lots of different hot weather foods. What I've
found that's just flat out organic rocket fuel are olives - ripe are good,
brine cured are better, and oil cured are nothing short of awesome!
Manzanilla olives are ok, but don't give you a shot of energy like the
blacks. They're good thirst quenchers, though.
The oils metabolize very quickly, burn very hot, and don't spike your
insulin levels, so there's no crash. They contain high levels of the salts
your body craves, and it's really easy to carry a small baggie full of them
in your belt pouch. I've been able to fight all day on olives and gatorade
and not get exhausted, while the guys doing the sodas and sandwiches were
flaking out like new recruits at Paris Island.
If you want to vary it a bit, a nice antipasto (olives, peppers, salami,
mozzarella, giardinera) is about the best all around hot weather nosh I've
ever come across. And the second best is Gazpacho. Try it sometime when
you're hot & tired.
Sieggy
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:23:25 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding Fighters
There's also the possibility of using a tapenade made of olives. I found
something that looks, smells and tastes like a tapenade in A Taste of Ancient
Rome...a recipe by Cato, that one of my protege's redacted. It's called
"Epityrum", and the recipe is:
Make Green, black or varicolored epityrum in this way. Pit the green, black or
varicolored olives. Season them thus: Chop them, and add oil, vinegar,
coriander, cumin, fennel, rue and mint. Put them in a small jar, with oil on
top and they are ready to use.
It's really good, especially when eaten with cheese. We made a flat bread
similar to foccacia (from the same source), and served a kind of soft cheese
spread (same source) and this olive paste. People loved it!
Kiri
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:44:38 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - olives
I used a combination of green and black brined olives...from a can/jar. It's what was most readily available. Do try it...everyone here who did really thought it was great! Following the earlier suggestion, I plan on making some to take to Pennsic for our fighters!
Kiri
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:57:07 EST
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Fresh olives
<< Fresh (meaning uncured or unpickled) olives are usually very bitter, and
almost inedible. I think we can assume, unless otherwise stated, that any
reference to olives in these posts refers to cured olives. Right guys and
gals? Please say I'm right... >>
While at our local market, I saw fresh olives. My mind went directly to the
yummy taste I associate with them and so I bought a small bagful. I went
home, opened a good book, grabbed a few olive out of the bag and popped them
into my mouth. I chewed half a chew and promptly spit them into my hand. It
was one of the most significantly terrible tasting food items I have ever
eaten (probably because my mind was not expecting what came of the
experience). I was expecting a velvety, salty or even oily taste. What I got
was turpentine.
Hauviette
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:45:30 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - olives
CBlackwill at aol.com wrote:
> stefan at texas.net writes:
> > Did you use olives that had already
> > been pickled or were they fresh? Since these do seem to be pickled
> > in this recipe in oil and vinegar it may not matter but if fresh
> > they probably aren't "ready to use"
>
> Fresh (meaning uncured or unpickled) olives are usually very bitter, and
> almost inedible. I think we can assume, unless otherwise stated, that any
> reference to olives in these posts refers to cured olives. Right guys and
> gals? Please say I'm right...
Cato, who devotes a fair amount of his text to olives, seems to suggest
that there are olives that are cured somehow, and those that are pressed
for oil without curing. For practical purposes, yeah, I'd agree, olives
that are intended for eating are processed somehow to remove that
chemical whose name I'll remember after I've had my dish of tay, that
makes them taste nasty. The chemical and the olives, not the tay.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:56:19 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - olives
CBlackwill at aol.com writes:
<< Please say I'm right... >>
Right. Uncured olives are referred to by that term or 'raw' and rarely
'fresh.'
Ras
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:52:43 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - olives
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Would "green, black or varicolored olives" necessarily indicate fresh or
> cured olives?
>
> If fresh then they still may end up being cured in this recipe, provided
> "and they are ready to use" means they may be used without other
> preperation rather than they can be eaten immediately.
>
> If this recipe does end up "curing" the olives then why would you
> start with cured olives, at least in period? Today you might simple
> because the cured ones might be more available or even cheaper.
>
> Maybe if we can get the original recipe in Latin, maybe a cook here
> can check the translation, particularly that last "ready to use" part.
The original Latin is as follows:
Epitrium album, nigrum, varium sic facto. Ex oleis albis, nigris variisque nucleos eicito. Sic condito. Concidito ipsas, addito oleum, acetum, coriandrum, cuminum, feniculum, rutum, mentam. In orculum condito, oleum supra siet. Ita utito.
It is from Cato, #119.
Kiri
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 22:17:17 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - olives
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Ras replied to me:
> > stefan at texas.net writes:
> > << Would "green, black or varicolored olives" necessarily indicate fresh or
> > cured olives? >>
> >
> > I would assume cured olives are meant by this recipe which appears to
> > indicate a sort of relish.
>
> Ok, why would you assume cured olives?
Hmmm. Okay, how about this? The olives are placed in vinegar and oil,
with oil coating the top to keep air out and help preserve the whole
thing. However, the recipe says this relish is ready to use immediately.
Had raw, uncured olives been used, it wouldn't be, even if vinegar, or
oil, or both could be used to draw the unpleasant-tasting chemicals from
the olives.
> Are all raw olives the same general color? Does this "green, black or
> varicolored olives" thus indicate processed olives?
No, olives are like most other fruits, they change color and ripen on
the plant. Green olives are unripe, and can be picked and cured, and so
can ripe ones of various colors. Usually some dark shade, purple or
black, but sometimes brown.
Dalby's translation of Cato's recipe for epityrum speaks of green,
black, or mixed olives, while the Latin suggests to me "white, black, or
mixed". Given that I really think this recipe calls for cured olives, it
would mean pretty much any olives as long as they're cured. However,
this can be confusing since at least one of Cato's recipes for curing
green olives is nearly identical to the epityrum recipe. Actually, from
what I've seen, most of the curing processes he discusses involve
vinegar, oil, and herbs, except for windfall olives which were
apparently salted.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 04:30:22 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - olives
stefan at texas.net writes:
<< Ok, why would you assume cured olives?
Are all raw olives the same general color? Does this "green, black or
varicolored olives" thus indicate processed olives? >>
Olives very in color according to their ripeness OR their method of
preparation. I would assume that cured olives are meant because when using
raw olives for this recipe it tastes horrible and is unpalatably bitter.
Ras
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 02:16:16 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - olives
stefan at texas.net writes:
> Olives were pressed for their oil. Were these ripe olives or still
> green? What was done with the crushed pulp? Hmm, for that matter,
> what was done with the crushed pulp from squeezing grapes for wine?
Green (raw) olives are pressed for oil, and the pulp is fed to farm animals.
Grape skins, called lees, are used in the production of the wine itself
("sitting on the lees" gives red wines their color), and then fed to farm
animals.
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:59:38 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - olives
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> > Olives very in color according to their ripeness OR their method of
> > preparation. I would assume that cured olives are meant because when using
> > raw olives for this recipe it tastes horrible and is unpalatably bitter.
>
> Ok. When you made this recipe using raw olives did it taste so bad you
> threw it out at that point? Or did you wait and see if in the meantime
> they "cured" in the oil/vinegar mixture? How long did you wait?
This is a good point. At some point the olives probably would cure to
some extent in this marinade. However, in spite of the fact that this
ought to keep a fairly long time, Cato says the relish is ready
immediately. This was why I assumed the olives were cured.
> Today we stuff olives with pimentos, right? Are there any referances
> to olives being stuffed in period with this or other items?
I haven't heard of this, but it would make sense, since the seed cavity
of things like dates were stuffed. I have a sneaking suspicion, but no
hard proof, that tuna-stuffed olives might have existed in period.
> Olives were pressed for their oil. Were these ripe olives or still
> green? What was done with the crushed pulp?
Both ripe and green olives can be pressed for oil, but I think the oil
from green olives lasts longer than that from ripe olives before
becoming rancid. The crushed pulp can be heated and processed for
pressing out more oil (said oil being cheap and surprisingly good, IMO,
and known as pomace olive oil). Whether or not this process is period I
couldn't say. The pomace (which really just means pressed pulp of
whatever, presumably originally a reference to apples) can also be
pressed into bricks and dried; it makes a good fuel.
> Hmm, for that matter,
> what was done with the crushed pulp from squeezing grapes for wine?
Animal feed. Fermented and distilled it is the basis for marc and grappa
brandies. Maybe plastics nowadays... ; ) .
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:48:53 -0700
From: Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at home.com>
Subject: Re: SC - at the market
At 04:52 PM 4/28/00 +0000,Christina van Tets said something like:
>Does anyone know how to cure olives? A period recipe would be excellent,