p-feasts-msg – 2/21/08
General comments about period feasts.
NOTE: See also the files: p-menus-msg, p-cooks-msg, feast-decor-msg, nefs-msg, high-table-msg, ME-feasts-msg, p-kitchens-msg, books-food-msg, p-tableware-msg, tablecloths-msg.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:55:02 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - medieval courses
Hi, Katerine here. Stefan asks about medieval courses. From a modern
standpoint, think of them as mini-meals. Dinners typically started with
bread, hard fruits, and hard cheeses on the table, and ended with soft
fruits, soft cheeses, wafers, and spiced wine. (I'm talking primarily
about 13th to 15th centur here.) I have never seen either of these
described as a course; they're simply taken for granted as what's there
at those times.
Courses tended to include a range of dishes, from our point of view: meat/
fish dishes, grains, vegetables, sweets. In general, a feast tended to
have two or possibly three courses. The progression was less from one
food type to another (salad to soup to meat to dessert) than from simple
and hearty to delicate and complex. How that plays out depends on where
and when you are. But throughout Europe, the overall pattern is that
early in the meal, everything goes to everybody; and as you move later,
dishes (or sometimes even an entire course) may be restricted to people
above a certain status.
This view of meal structure did tend to place more sweet dishes late than
early, but primarily because sweet dishes are more highly represented among
the delicate and complex parts of most European cuisine than among the
simple and hearty ones, not because they were aiming toward some modern
sense of dessert. Even the first course was likely to have a dish or two that
was relatively sweet; and even the last tended to have a largeish number
of savory and other non-sweet dishes.
This changes in the renaissance, as the final wafers-fruit-cheese-and-wine
expands into sweet banquets. I'm not sure precisely when this happens; my
impression is that in England, it's roughly associated with the mid 16th
century. (I'm sure it's no earlier than early 16th century.)
Hope this helps!
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: Debra Hense <debh at microware.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:01:14 -0500
Subject: SC - RE: sca-cooks V1 #117
I've made a start on studying menus as it applies to 14th century France.
My overall impressions are:
The first course/platter would consist of several dishes (removes) that
were spiced with appetite stimulating herbs and spices.
The second course would consist of gross meats (ie: cheap meats - simply
prepared (boiled or roasted)) with sauces and various vegetable dishes.
The next course would consist of fancier dishes which involved more
preparation steps and more expensive spices. If more than four courses -
repeat the fancier dishes/more expensive spices theme for each additional
course.
The final course would consist of fruits, nuts, and hippocras (otherwise
known as leisure food - sit back, relax, pick at the food, drink, talk,
repeat until tired of sitting.) 8-) ;-) :-)
There seemed to be no fewer than four courses, and as many as 10 for
special occasions and feast days. And each course has its own sweet served
with it.
I don't have my sources here - but Tavaillent (sp?), Goodman of Paris, and
le Menagier are my primary sources. Also, I have looked at some of the
extant menus reproduced in Fabulous Feasts (which I bought for the menus
and pictures - preferring for the most part to do my own redactions from
primary reproductions such as Caridoc's Miscellaney).
As to how the cookbook should be sectioned. I think Meat dishes, Dairy
dishes, Vegetable Dishes, Sweets, would be good enough for me. Let the
person putting the feast together decide which course they want the recipe
to reside in. Every cook is different. Appetizers seemed to have had a
whole different meaning in 14th C. France. Such as dishes using cumin,
ginger, galingale, and cinnamon.
Kateryn de Develyn
debh at microware.com
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:02:54 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - test cooking
Hi, Katerine here. Shirley asks how many dishes "are supposed" to be in
a course, what are "the rules" about what they should be, and what
additional dishes one might add to Lombardy Rice and a mushroom pasty
to make up a course.
None of these questions has a hard and fast answer. Depending where and
when you were, typical meals had different numbers of courses, with
different numbers of dishes in each. And what dishes they combined how
also varied.
In 14th or 15th century England, a course seems to have had between five
and ten dishes (not counting bread, sauces, etc.). In general, on a
meat day, there would be at least one meat dish and typically more; and
the dishes would usually represent some sort of balance between savory
and sweet, and between mild and spicy.
Within those bounds, do as seems reasonable!
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:42:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "Elizabeth O'Donovan" <odonoea4 at wfu.edu>
Subject: SC - Homework
Hmmm...just in time for the eating season: some inspiration from my
studies.
"Then the first course comes, with clamor of trumpets
That were bravely bedecked with bannerets bright,
With noise of new drums and the noble pipes.
Wild were the warbles that wakened that day
In strains that stirred many strong men's hearts.
There dainties were dealt out, dishes rare,
Choice fare to choose, on chargers so many
that scarce was there space to set before the people
The service of silver, with sundry meats,
on cloth.
Each fair guest freely there
Partakes, and nothing loth;
Twelve dishes before each pair;
Good beer (!!!) and bright wine both."
From _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_, Marie Borroff, trans.
W.W. Norton & Co. New York;1967.
All kinds of hedonistic pleasures...
Elizabeth
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:30:04 -0500
From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redeker at digital.com>
Subject: SC - Above the Salt
A few months ago, we had discussions on Above the salt feasts. I am
currently reading "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine" by Barbara
Santich and she gives a quote I thought was interesting.
'Certain foods are more appropriate to the nobles and those who lead a
contemplative life,'
It goes on to list:
'and these are partridges and pheasants, chicken, capons, hares, kid and
rabbit, prepared in various ways; others are more appropriate to robust,
labouring types, and these include the meat of bulls and rams, salted
pork, peas and beans and coarse barley bread.'
So if you were a cook in these times (this is taken from a Latin text of
the late thirteenth century) what would you make for an "above the salt
course" and then the "below the salt course" for a feast?
Murkial
Christi Redeker
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 12:25:51 PST
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts: Serving and Carving
Alys Katherine,
This was so well thought out, and in line with a recent discussion, that
I've forwarded it over to Cooks.
phlip at morganco.net
Never a horse that cain't be rode,
And never a rider that cain't be throwed.
:
: Greetings! After several days of reading comments about
: feasts, Id like to toss in this for consideration. While some
: SCA cooks (feastocrats) will try using period recipes most
: of them dont seem to research what period serving methods
: might have been like in the years/country the recipes are
: taken from. Whole chickens (or any whole cut of meat) are
: one example.
:
: Even through the late 1400s and the bokes of courtesy it
: is noted that there are special rules for cutting and disjointing
: meats. The feasters were not expected to hack up their
: own chickens as we in the SCA are expected. One reference
: clearly states that a whole chicken is for the lord and that the
: lesser folk get only parts. (Those at the head table were
: expected to send choice pieces of their larger dishes to people
: seated at lower tables, as a mark of favor from the lord.) While
: general statements are rarely accurate, one might be safe saying
: that in the SCA time periods, no whole chickens should _ever_
: be served to any table other than the high table. And, at high
: table, the carver should perform his magic. It shouldnt be the
: high table guests job to cut up their own chicken.
:
: While serving styles did change, for much of our (English) time
: frame foods were put in front of each two, or possibly four, diners
: who were then expected to eat from those dishes. Our family-
: style meals, where one bowl is passed down the table, was
: probably not the norm. Several people noted in recent posts that
: there were problems with the first feasters taking a lot of one
: dish, leaving little for the eighth or tenth person down the line.
: If one adapted medieval serving habits (as we are supposed to be
: doing) this would be minimized.
:
: We SCAers are doing a pretty good job of exploring the re-creation
: of all sorts of medieval arts, crafts, and combat. Why is it that in
: cooking and serving we are content to present and serve food in
: a twentieth-century style? There are primary sources available as
: well as good secondary sources. Its really nice to go to a feast
: where the presentation, serving, carving have all been done with an
: eye to re-creating that aspect of dining!
:
: Is there any interest in discussing how to make this part of a feast
: (carving and serving) more medieval?
:
: Alys Katharine
:
:
: From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:03:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - (Fwd) Re: AL -Need data about food
Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 8-Jun-98 SC - (Fwd) Re: AL
- -Need dat.. "Phyllis Spurr" at tdh.stat (1209*)
> Hii everybody I have been doing research on Balls and dancing and have
> discovered a new eating custom I haven't noticed before. It was called a
> Collation in France. It appears to be a sweet table but there is a
> mention of liqueurs being served at it.. This meal occurred after the
> dinner and in a separate room. My resources don't tell me more about this
> custom. Do you have any info on Collations? I would like to know what
> kind of sweets and cold food were served and how were they served. Did
> Collations take place in other areas and if they were called anything
> else.
In England, it's known as the Banquet course.
toodles, margaret
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:19:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Re: Competitions
'Twas written:
>>3. I can "specialize" to some extent. Right now, I'm on a
>>candy-making kick. It's kinda hard to turn that into a complete
>>feast.
And Sianan replied:
> Course you can. Advertise it as a medieval candy-fest and I can
>guartunee that there would be a few bookings.
Actually, you could use a "period" term for the medieval candy-fest and
call it a "banquet". Or "samples from a banquet". In Tudor and Stuart
times the banquet was what we call the "dessert course" and contained
candies as well as numerous other items. Markham, I believe, has a
listing of things necessary for a banquet. These always included
marchpanes (as the center attraction), preserved and candied fruits,
seeds, sweetened "breads" such as biscuits (twice-cooked "cookies"),
etc.
Alys Katharine
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:42:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Re: Course: was Sign-on Package?
Phlip wrote, in part:
>(snip) vs. the more Medieval/early period idea of making each
course or "remove" an entire meal in itself.
A "remove" referred to two dishes...one (usually a soup) that was put
in place and then "removed" and was replaced by another (frequently a
roast or a fish).
>Our modern 12 course meals are simple in each chronological
>presentation, and are expected to be finished in an hour or two- the
>early "feasts" were an entire day's eating, separated frequently by
>entertainments. I suspect this is the reason that early SCAdians
>used the term "remove" to differentiate between the two types of
meals.
>From what I can determine, the 20 to 30 dishes in a course were not
intended to be served to each person. Some of the dishes were only for
the "high table" or the most important guests. Others served lower
tables. However, all the various dishes were listed for each course.
Also, depending on the era, the diners did not pass the dishes; at
least, they certainly didn't pass them very far. Sometimes the dishes
were expected to feed the two,four, or so people sitting in a
particular area. Other times it is implied that dishes were to be
passed, at least a little way. There is a period story of a naive
young man come to the city. He was faulted for gorging himself on the
delicacy placed before him because he didn't know how to reach the
other dishes. Anyhow, people didn't appear to expect that they would
get something of every type of food that was served.
>I suggest we look at the degeneration the term "banquet" has suffered
>over the years, as a means of comparison. In its original usage,
>"banquet" implied a feast similar to the multi-course meals we moderns
>consider highly sophisticated.
In the Elizabethan and Tudor years, the "banquet" was the final course
of sweets, frequently served in a separate location from the dinner.
This was often a special room or set of rooms called a "banquetting
house". There are banquetting houses on islands in artificial lakes,
and even a drawing of one up on a secluded roof. There is a very good
chapter about the evolution of "banquet" and "banquetting houses" in
the book _'Banquetting Stuffe'_, edited by C. Anne Wilson. My
understanding is that the use of "banquet" for the sweet course
predated our use of it as a feast of multi-course meals.
Alys Katharine
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:04:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Re: Course: Was Sign-On Package?
Adamantius wrote:
>I seem to recall that the term "banquet" was indeed the final course
>of sweets (and was sometimes the sole food served, possibly at a ball
>of some kind), but that the term itself actually refers to the piece
>of furniture on which the sweet dishes were laid out: in English it is
>more or less equivalent to the sideboard (snip)
C. Anne Wilson writes "...the confusion goes back almost as far as the
time when the word 'banquet' entered the English language. According
to the dictionaries, the French word 'banquet' derives from the Italian
'banchetto', which had originally meant a small bench or table but had
also taken on the additional sense of a magnificent meal - perhaps
initially a very special meal served to a few important people at a
small table...first appeared in print in the plural form of 'bankettis'
in Caxton's edition of the _Golden Legend_ published in 1483." (pp
9-10)
"The word 'banquet' surfaces in direct relation to sweetmeats in the
early 1530s in conjunction with the banqueting house, and stays current
until around 1700." (p 37)
She doesn't mention, outside of the possible derivation from
"banchetto" that an banquet refers to a piece of furniture. However, I
don't have an OED so I can't check to see if that is another possible
meaning.
Alys Katharine
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:08:23 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - A plea for help with presentation
Bruegel's painting, _The Wedding Feast_. 1566-69, shows a Flemish peasant
wedding. Men are carrying in the food on doors laid on hurdles. We
don't see the underside; they may not be fixed hurdles, just heavy poles,
but there sould be less chance of slippage if the poles were fixed to a
cross member or two. We can see it's a door because the hinges show.
Nine tartes lie on the door, and one man at a table is reaching out to
get one with his left hand, while his right hand passes another tarte
down the table. Somewhere or other, I have seen Bacchus carried into a
feast or hall, reclining on a similar litter (of course, it was probably
Fantasia!) but what a great spectacle it could be to have a corpulent
shire member semi dressed as Bacchus, with vine leaves in his hair,
surrounded by mounds of greenery and grape clusters, followed by litter
bearers carrying the food. It will probably take too long for each guest
to help himself, so the litters could contain table sized serving dishes.
A shire member, with a gift of gab, could deliver a running patter to
entertain the guests while this is being done.
Also: Wilson, C. Anne. (ed) THE APPETITE AND THE EYE. Edinburgh
University Press. 1991. A collection of papers on the visual aspects of
food and its presentation with their historic context. Not all are
medieval.
Maybe you can get that book on ILL.
Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:23:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Feast Service
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Christine A Seelye-King wrote:
> (BTW, I was referring to the Introduction letter
> just recently posted from a lady in ?An Tir? who said her most recent
> foray into period feasting included reseached folds in the tablecloths, I
> am still curious to hear more about that.)
Christina,
I believe that was me, and there are several documents that
address the tablecloth issue. The one that I made most use of was from
Wynken de Worde's _Boke of Kervynge_ (15thc.). _For to Serve Lord_ also
has some passages about tablecloths, and a 'Fifteenth-Century Courtesy
Book' (bound with a fifteenth-century Franciscan rule by EETS). There's
quite a few books about how to serve one's lord, and most of them have
instructions on laying the table, as well as hand-washing (another thing
we did, with warm rose-water and special hand-towels and a polished silver
pitcher...). Reading these documents can be a bit of a pain, but if you
look in the reference section of a local college library, they are likely
to have a Middle English Dictionary- there are several. Let me know if you
have more questions.
'Lainie
- -
Laura C. Minnick
University of Oregon
Department of English
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:39:32 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Serving Ettiquette
Thorunn asked:
>I am seeking information on the proper etiquette of serving at feast.
Here's a wonderful source.
_Early English Meals and Manners_, ed. Frederick J. Furnivall. Early
English Text Society, Original Series 32. London: Kegan Paul, Trench,
Trubner & Co., 1868.
It contains the following works: John Russell's Boke of nurture, Wynkyn de
Worde's Boke of keruynge, The boke of curtasye, R. Weste's Booke of
demeanor, Seager's Schoole of vertue, The babees book, Aristole's A B C,
Urbanitatis, Stans puer ad mensam, The lytylle childrenes lytil boke, For to
serve a lord, Old Symon, The birched school-boy, and some other stuff.
The Boke of Kervynge is especially useful, as it is instructions to a page
on how to serve at table. There are details about handling table coverings
and napkins, how to carve trenchers, etc., etc. It also sets up an
elaborate Order of Precedence, from an emperor on down. I was interested to
see that former Lords Mayor of London had a specific spot. I wonder what
would happen if we tried to assure former Lords Mayor of Pennsic a spot in
the Order of Precedence? ;>
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
capriest at cs. vassar. edu Frostahlid, Austrrik