p-tableware-msg

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p-tableware-msg - 12/27/06

Period tableware, knives, spoons, forks, salt cellars. Paintings and other period references to tableware.

KEYWORDS: tableware knives forks spoons mugs chalices cups

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

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Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier)

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast

Date: 23 Sep 1994 23:15:06 GMT

Organization: BSI

> >I want recipes to cook a medieval feast, with my kids. We have read a few

> >>kids books that describe the royal banquet. They didn't have plates, they

> "They didn't have plates" is an overstatement. I believe at least the

> wealthier feasters would have trenchers ON plates. Anyway, many rich

You can find references to wooden and pewter plates in art works and old

writings. At least for the Rennaissance. Bowls were also common.

Victoria

From: jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Period tableware and dishes

Date: 20 Mar 1995 20:57:59 -0500

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Lady Bronwen Selwyn writes:

> I have been asked to teach a class on Period place settings....

> I am fairly...{18 months}...new to SCA and do not know much more that from

> personal experience. I would appreciate it if anyone could help give me

> some facts on the matter, in particular, forks. I have heard so many

> various things on them. I know about being three pronged and making there

> way from Italy. But there always seems to be a great deal of variance on

> the time, anywhere from beginning in the 13th century to being only late

> period. Also I am curious as to what social classes tended to use them.

With regard to forks, there was an article by Catherina Sforza d'Agro

in _TI_ about five years ago on forks; someone in your area may have

the edition. (Sorry, my _TI_s are in Virginia, and I'm in Connecticut.)

However, that isn't where I'd start, in your place. If you have access

to a serious library, look for (or request by interlibrary loan) the

following volume:

Furnivall, Frederick J., _Early English Meals and Manners_,

Early English Text Society Original Series #32, (London:

Oxford University Press), 1868.

Don't be scared away by the date! This is an edition of several period

manuscripts on the subject, including John Russell's Boke of Nurture,

Wynkyn de Worde's Boke of Kervynge, and the Boke of Curtasye. They

include all _kinds_ of details about how tables should be set. The

scholarship of the edition is as fine as you will find.

Many, many libraries have copies of the Early English Text Society's

series; this is quite accessible.

-- Angharad

From: HPGV80D at prodigy.com (Patricia Hefner)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes

Date: 25 Mar 1995 05:55:21 GMT

Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY

Mikjal--I found reference to "vessels" in the early regulations of the

College de Sorbonne from around 1260. Napkins are also mentioned, but

forks are not! ---Isabelle

From: jerryn at crl.com (Kati Norris)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes

Date: 25 Mar 1995 17:50:14 GMT

Organization: Cathlin ban Gerald / Stargate / Ansteorra

In article <3kvugp$80v at giga.bga.com>, cmwalden at bga.com (Antonio Bastiano) says:

>jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter) says:

>>> I have been asked to teach a class on Period place settings....

>Actually, one discovery that I have made about period settings is rather

>interesting. We spend a great deal of time discussing flatware, but from

>what I have seen the centerpiece of the table was the salt-cellar. It

>was a container for holding salt, and from early period to late period

>was designed to make a statement. They were ornate and usually designed

>to look as though they contained more than they did--with pedestals and

>bulky decoration.

>I have been assembling a salt cellar from "bits." It does change the

>point of view of the table. Gives it a different emphasis. (It's so

>hard for us to relate to because we throw salt on the street and try not

>to over use it on our food!)

>Yours, etc.

>Antonio Bastiano

>or cmwalden at bga.com

We've been trying to get a small wooden (or ceramic) bowl and tiny

spoon for a salt cellar. But I've also read in Life in Medieval

Cities (or Times) that the salt was put in a piece of bread with a

hole scooped out for the salt. We'd also like a place to keep pepper

(OOP I know because of the cost back then) and garlic powder on the

table. It seems that feast fare lacks these items and my lord

(almost) requires them in his food. Any suggestions will be most

welcome.

Many thanks,

Caitlin ban Gerald

Barony of Stargate / Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: schuldy at abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes

Date: 28 Mar 1995 20:02:43 GMT

Someone (lost in the attributions) wrote:

I have been asked to teach a class on Period place settings....

Do take the time to find "The Boke of Nurture" John Russell, reprinted by

the Early English Text Society. It covers linens, napkins, table service

and more.

It actually explained a few modern things for me.... if you go to a proper

restaurant, the waiter serves from over your left shoulder. Why? Boke of

Nurture mentions that a long napkin should be placed on your lap, and over

your left shoulder, so the server doesn't drip with a full plate on you...

Some day, probably not far off, I am going to prepare full table service

that matches what is required by Boke of Nurture. Teach my friends and

frequent table mates to use it, and have a *good* time.

Tibor (working from memory, and therefore possibly in error)

Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dinner in Poland in 1220

Date: 5 Jul 1995 17:41:42 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Cc: jenn at sover.net

Jennifer Frizzell (jenn at maple.sover.net) wrote:

: Somebody help! I'm trying to recreate a Polish Counts

: tablesetting in a 1220 period.

Let me begin by saying that Poland of any period is not something that I

have made a study of, so I can't say much to the specifics of this

question, but I can, perhaps, give advice on the approach.

: Now let me give you everything I know so

: far. Glass wasn't introduced to poland until 1500,

I would be very surprised to discover that this was true. Even if Poland

did not develop a significant local glass industry until this time

(something I find improbable), imports of luxury glass items would still

be expected.

: lace wasn't introduced

: until 1480 and silver smithing was in it's glory at about 1200 so it

: seems obvious that silver and wood are the predominate products used in

: tableware.

What about ceramics? Horn? Baser metals such as bronze and pewter?

: The real questions lay in what utensils were used. What were the

: designs in the plates and what kind of plates were used.

: Also, since most of the main food animals were goat-sized or

: smaller, then most of the plates would only be about 1ft in diameter or

: less.

Does this really follow? Plates for personal service are rarely designed

for entire animals. If the meat has been parboiled, hacked into gobbets,

and cooked into a sauce, how does the size of the animal relate to the

size of the plate?

: Also, pitchers for milk would be small due to the lack of

: refrigeration capabilities (you try and use it up before it gets bad).

Pitchers are generally used for temporary transport and ease of service.

To this end, the functional constraints tend to be how easy they are to

lift and manoever and how much of the contents is likely to be wanted at

a particular event. Again, I think you are focussing on irrelevant

factors, which makes it hard to come to accurate conclusions.

The best places to begin, if you want to learn something about 13th

century Polish tableware would be illustrated catalogs of relevant

archaeological digs, and artistic representations of the period. Are

there illuminated manuscripts dating from Poland in this era? Many

biblical scenes involve eating, and the common custom in such

illuminations is to reflect contemporary (not actual Biblical) practice.

I note that one of my costuming books has illustrations from something

referred to as "The Maciejowski Bible" dating from the 13th century (in

the collection of the Pierpont Morgan Library). While the name appears to

be Polish, it isn't clear whether it refers to the books original

provenance or simply to some later owner, but it would certainly be a

place to start.

These types of approaches will be far more profitable in the long run

than conclusions based on speculation alone.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: mwl at celsiustech.se (Matt Larsen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dinner in Poland in 1220

Date: 7 Jul 1995 11:03:43 +0200

Organization: CelsiusTech AB

Jennifer Frizzell (jenn at maple.sover.net) wrote:

: Somebody help! I'm trying to recreate a Polish Counts

: tablesetting in a 1220 period. Now let me give you everything I know so

: far.

I've been looking at table service in the 14th and 15th centuries for

a while, although mostly in France and England. So some of what I know

may apply, but I can't really promise anything :-)

: Glass wasn't introduced to poland until 1500, lace wasn't introduced

: until 1480

To the best of my knowledge this is correct. They seem to have table cloths

and sometimes napkins, though.

: and silver smithing was in it's glory at about 1200 so it

: seems obvious that silver and wood are the predominate products used in

: tableware.

Others have suggested pottery, and it is certainly true that pottery was

in use throughout the period, so this may be an alternative for you. But

I believe you are also correct in believing that any wealthy person would

have eaten off of or at least drunk from silver. The goblet or cup as

we know it seems to have been a relatively late fashion, and it seems

that most drinking was done from bowls. These are known as "hanaps"

when made from silver (or gold), and are sometimes decorated with engraving

or other forms of decoration. Wooden drinking bowls were called "mazurs"

and again are sometimes elaborately decorated, usually with carving or a

foot or rim of silver. Various shapes were used, but a common one is

very similar to what we think of as a normal bowl with a bit of an upward

bulge in the center.

: The real questions lay in what utensils were used. What were the

: designs in the plates and what kind of plates were used.

As for utensils, knives come in two types: large (approx. 1 foot long)

carving and serving knives and smaller eating knives. Almost all eating

knives seem to have been single edged, and the most common shape is a

straight back edge extending from the top of the handle to the point,

with the blade curving down slightly from the handle underneath and

then up to meet the back at the point (Hmm. I'm not sure this is

very clear. You really need to see a picture of one...). Forks were

relatively uncommon, usually two tined, and seem to have been mostly

used for eating sticky deserts. Spoons have a wide, shallow bowl,

almost too large to fit in the mouth, and a straight handle extending

back to (usually) some kind of decorative knop. Handles tend to be

slim and long in England and France, and short and thick in Scandanavia.

Your guess is as good as mine which style prevailed in Poland :-)

Surviving spoons are almost always in silver, and wills and such

suggest that even most middle class people would have owned a few

silver spoons.

: Also, since most of the main food animals were goat-sized or

: smaller, then most of the plates would only be about 1ft in diameter or

: less.

In the 16th century plates seem to be mostly large, between 12" and 16",

and surviving examples are as likely to be pewter as they are to be

silver. There are very few existing plates (that I've found) from

before the 16th c., but iconographical evidence suggests that plates

were often relatively small, more like 7" or so. One usually sees

servers in the same pictures, so I expect that as soon as one ate

the relatively small amount on ones plate, a server would cut something

new to put on it. There are some extant wooden plates, and they tend

to be small, again about 7" - 8" in diameter.

: Also, pitchers for milk would be small due to the lack of

: refrigeration capabilities (you try and use it up before it gets bad).

I think pitchers came in all sizes. Most of the surviving ones in

precious metals are small, but there are large pottery and leather

jugs. There are also brass pitchers, and they are often paired with

a basin and would have been used for washing hands before eating. I

have also seen many pewter pitchers in various sizes, but they mostly

seem to be from the 16th c., although this may simply be that earlier

ones were melted down and remade. It seems, by the way, that pewter

in general was very popular in the 16th century, because of the rise

of the middle class who were trying to imitate more wealthy people

who ate off of silver.

Candlesticks, by the way, were usually of cast brass or bronze, and

were of the pricket variety until quite late in period (about the

latter half of the 16th c.).

: If anyone has any information which could help me in this area,

: please forward it to Jenn at sover.net

This is obviously a very quick sketch of this topic. If anyone has

specific questions, let me know. I can't cite a lot of reference

works, although I've got a few good ones. Most of what I've learned

I've found out by haunting museums (I've got some interesting photos,

but... :-)

Geoffrey Mathias

mjl at rational.com

From: mjc at telerama.lm.com (Monica Cellio)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period wares (was jurying merchants)

Date: 2 Jul 1996 10:35:24 -0400

Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA

...

And a couple years ago at Pennsic I actually had a

merchant show me documentation. (This was for those utensils that

have tines (like a fork) at one end and a spoon at the other; turns

out they're 9th-century Anglo-Saxon, not a modern invention. And not

nearly as difficult to eat with as you might think.)

Ellisif

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjc/ellisif.html

From: Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period knives and shoes (was jurying merchants)

Date: 3 Jul 1996 15:56:44 GMT

Organization: City of Eugene, Eugene OR USA

For a good Norse eating knife, check your local hardware store. We have

found Swedish knife blanks (blade is about 4 1/2", tang is 3 1/2") that

look exactly right; all you have to do is add a handle. (they're

imprinted with the co. name and "Suede" in a little round pattern near

the hilt end of the blade-- sorry I can't be more specific but mine's at

home, not at work)

For period shoes (esp. Norse), short of do-it-yourselfing, you can also

try taking your pattern to the local hippie marketplace (we have a BIG

Saturday Market here about 9 mo. of the year) and look for the best

moccasin/boot maker...

Chimene

chimenedes at aol.com

From: bhw at psyc.nott.ac.uk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Table settings

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:17:59 +0100

Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, The University of Nottingham

Kristine E. Maitland wrote:

> I'm entering a contest (next Septentrian 12th Night) which involves

> setting a table. Can anyone recommend books/journal articles/primary

> sources on table setting (ceramics, glassware, silverware, linens etc...)

> circa early 1500s Italy.

I have seen an absolutely superb book for this - it contained hundreds

of pictures from renaissance italian paintings to illustrate

domestic architecture, including table settings. One thing I remember

particularly is that a common drinking vessel is a clear straight

sided glass - it looks exactly like a modern "highball" glass.

Now, annoyingly, I can't find the reference: if anyone could help

out I'd be grateful.

Caitlin

From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Table settings

Date: 25 Sep 1996 09:31:47 GMT

Kristine E. Maitland wrote:

> I'm entering a contest (next Septentrian 12th Night) which involves

> setting a table. Can anyone recommend books/journal articles/primary

> sources on table setting (ceramics, glassware, silverware, linens etc...)

> circa early 1500s Italy.

*The* book to look for: The Italian Renaissance Interior 1400-1600

by Peter Thornton. ISBN 0-8109-3459-0. Nearly five hundred pictures in

four hundred pages. Excellent source, hard to find.

-Iain, who got his copy at a used bookstore for $15 from the "It's been here

for a long time" bin

------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------

42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101

From: pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US (Pat Lammerts)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Table settings

Date: 25 Sep 1996 19:47:42 -0400

It was written:

> *The* book to look for: The Italian Renaissance Interior 1400-1600

> by Peter Thornton. ISBN 0-8109-3459-0. Nearly five hundred pictures in

> four hundred pages. Excellent source, hard to find.

> -Iain, who got his copy at a used bookstore for $15 from the "It's been here

> for a long time" bin

Boy, what a bargain you got, Iain!

The book is still in print and, per Books in Print, it is $125.00.

Here are the details:

Thornton, Peter, 1926-

The Italian Renaissance interior, 1400-1600 / Peter Thornton.

New York : H.N. Abrams, 1991.

407 p. : ill. (some col.), plans ; 27 cm.

ISBN 0810934590

or, since Kristine is in Canada, here is the British version for L65.00:

Thornton, Peter.

The Italian Renaissance interior, 1400-1600 / Peter Thornton.

London : Weidenfeld and Nicolson, c1991.

407 p. : ill. (some col.), plans ; 27 x 27 cm.

ISBN 0297830066

Huette

(pat at lalaw.lib.ca.us)

From: deewolff at aol.com (DeeWolff)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Table settings

Date: 25 Sep 1996 20:17:59 -0400

"The Art of Dining- A History of Cooking and Eating" Sara Paston-Williams

( The National Trust1993 ), I got it from Poison Pen Press in the East

Kingdom. Excellent background on food, tables set, and service of such.

Wish you luck !! Andrea MacIntyre of Ostgardr

From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Table settings

Date: 27 Sep 1996 11:13:56 GMT

bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) wrote:

> I'm entering a contest (next Septentrian 12th Night) which involves

> setting a table. Can anyone recommend books/journal articles/primary

> sources on table setting (ceramics, glassware, silverware, linens etc...)

> circa early 1500s Italy. Articles on the same for the Mamluks and the

> Ottoman empire would also be appreciated.

> Ines

The first that comes to mind is Castiglione's _Book of the Courtier_.

Another is by R. Strong, _Splendour at Court: Renaissance Spectacle and

Illusion_. I have heard recommended _Savouring the Past: the french

Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789_ by B. Ketchan Wheaton, but I've not

yet had a chance to read it.

al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

afn03234 at afn.org

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:01:18 -0500 (CDT)

From: timbeck at ix.netcom.com

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Chalice, goblet, something

>It is my intentions to attempt a drinking vessel and maybe a bowl and plate

>in brass for Queens Prize. Just looking for documation ideas. Know of any

>good books?

>Ld Malgar Thorvik

I found a great book for documentation of high-end medieval cups, &c. is

_Secular Goldsmith's Work in Medieval France: A History_ by Ronald W.

Lightbown, F.S.A. ISBN 0 500 99027 1 You might be able to get it from

Amazon. Also there is a medieval catalog of 1940 (or something to that

effect) put out by the Museum of London which has a some pieces which

represent the more common items of the time. This book covers many topics

and the cup info may be sparse. Beakers are a cool item which seem to

have come in all levels of cost and quality and are certainly under

represented in the SCA....So are most metal cups for that matter...

Hope this helps,

Timothy

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:57:49 -0500 (CDT)

From: Mark Weiland <gryfon at execpc.com>

Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #208

>From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

I must apologise for not making it clear that most, but not all, of my

research is focused on the Italian Peninsula of the 13th thru 17th centuries.

>Hmm. While in general I agree with you, but when you say that

>presentation is more vital to an accurate recreation of period food than

>we give it credit for, you lose me. It's not that I don't feel

>presentation is important, but it sounds, from what you say, that you

>are superimposing modern values on our medieval or renaissance

>counterparts.

While many good cooks in the Society go to great lengths to ensure well

researched recipes, how many times is the hall and table setting catch as

catch can. The first part of Cristoforo da Messisbugo's BANCHETTI is

dedicated to who came to dinner, how to set the hall, how many table cloths

to place on the table, how many silver candlesticks should be used, how many

silver salt cellars to use, and more in the same vain. When Montaigne

visited Rome in 1580 he wrote"In front of those to whom they want to do

particular honor,who are seated beside of opposite the master, they place

big silver squares on which their salt cellar stands, of the same sort they

put before the great in France. On top of this there is a napkin folded in

four and on this napkin is the bread, knife, fork, and spoon."

In Sano di Pietro's (1406-1481) painting the ST. PETER HEALING PETRONELLA

one can see wonderful clear glass carafes and glasses filled with red wine.

There are more paintings that help us to come to a more clear understanding

of what a period table and meal would have looked like and I contend that

the guests (nobles) did not bring their own plates,linens and candles and

that the food was presented in the most appealing way possible.

<snip>

Balthazar

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:17:55 -0500

From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)

Subject: Re: SC - Carving books?

Several years ago I got a great German book on carving through interlibrary

loan. The title says that it's about table customs to the end of the Middle

Ages, but as I recall there was quite a lot about carvers and the art of

carving. It's a good secondary source and if you can handle the German

worth looking up. There are also some great photographs of dishes and

eating utensils.

Schiedlausky, Gunther. Essen und trinken: Tafelsitten bis zum Ausgang des

Mittelalters.

Munich: Prestel Verlag, 1956.

Valoise

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:37:26 EDT

From: freyja1 at juno.com (Timothy A Whitcomb)

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Wooden feast gear documentation

>A question has been put to me by a member of my canton, as to

>documentation for a set of wooden feast gear she would like to make -

>what it might look like (plates vs. trenchers, for instance), what kind

>of wood to use, etc. She has been having some trouble finding adequate

>resources locally.

>Rhodri ap Hywel

This may help just a little: in "medieval Pottery in Britain AD900-1600"

by Mc