tablecloths-msg - 9/1/12
Period tablecloths. SCA feast tablecloths.
NOTE: See also the files: utensils-msg, p-tableware-msg, spoons-msg, forks-msg, aquamaniles-msg, feast-decor-msg, nefs-msg, feast-serving-msg, high-table-msg.
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 03:54:46 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - roundels and tablecloths
morgana.abbey at juno.com writes:
> Balthazar, you have the professional experience. Any thoughts?
Why, it's funny you should ask.... The description sounds *exactly* like a
table skirt we still use today in almost all banquet and catering functions.
It serves a number of purposes, such as adding a "finished" edge to the
table, protecting the floor from drips which would have otherwise hit it,
and nicely hiding things from the view of the dining public, such as chafing
dish lids, buckets for holding fat and trimmings from on-line carving
stations, and the occasional Jack and Coke for the thirsty Chef...
> I wouldn't use table skirts simply because, once made, I'd have no other
> way to use the fabric.
Except, of course, as a table skirt for your next feast... :)
Balthazar of Blackmoor
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:00:59 EDT
From: RuddR at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Roundels and Tablecoths
Cairistiona writes:
> Thinking of tablecloths, I notice that both the Berry picture (January) and
> another picture I have (marriage feast at the court of King Yon of Gascony
> is all I know) show damask tablecloths in pieces: a separate piece of
> damask pleated (maybe pinned to the table top?) about 2 ins every foot or so
> all round the sides of the table, and coming to no more than about 2/3 of
> the way down to the floor. The top cloth is only as wide as the table top,
> and so doesn't cover the pleats at all. On the Berry picture the top cloth
> extends over the ends of the table, but not the long sides. I think I've
> seen some other, less clear, examples of the same technique, but not
> actually registered in my mind before. Any thoughts on this? Has anyone
> tried laying a table this way?
Yes. I've experiemnted with laying tablecloths as I've seen in many medieval
illustrations. What I've come up with at this point is an undercloth, very
much longer than the table, gathered and pleated (with the help of staight
pins), and a smaller top cloth, just the size of the tabletop. To get an
undercloth long enough, I've used two long cloths, joined together at a
gather and pleat. An example of this type of tablecloth may be seen at:
http://www.50megs.com/matterer/medpix/gallery4/mpix91.htm
There are better examples, but this is one I could lay my browser on at short
notice. I have also seen examples of a gathered cloth, without a top cloth:
http://www.50megs.com/matterer/medpix/gallery2/mpix40.htm
As far as the January Berry Hours picture goes, it looks to me like a single
damask cloth, lightly pleated (draping naturally?), without a top cloth.
They seem to be using little gold plates, rather than roundels. The big nef
seems to be holding more little gold plates.
Rudd Rayfield
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:07:08 CEST
From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Re: tablecloths (longish)
In answer to my original question, Balthazar wrote:
>Why, it's funny you should ask.... The description sounds *exactly* like a
>table skirt we still use today in almost all banquet and catering
>functions. It serves a number of purposes, such as adding a "finished" edge
>to the table, protecting the floor from drips which would have otherwise
>hit it, and nicely hiding things from the view of the dining public, such
>as chafing dish lids, buckets for holding fat and trimmings from on-line
>carving stations, and the occasional Jack >and Coke for the thirsty Chef...
Well, yes, except that all the pictures I have in my possession show the
table skirt to be between about 10 and 18 inches deep, by my approximation.
and Rudd Rayfield wrote:
>Yes. I've experiemnted with laying tablecloths as I've seen in many
>medieval illustrations. What I've come up with at this point is an
>undercloth, very much longer than the table, gathered and pleated (with the
>help of staight pins), and a smaller top cloth, just the size of the
>tabletop. To get an undercloth long enough, I've used two >long cloths,
>joined together at a gather and pleat. An example of this type of
>tablecloth may be seen at:
>http://www.50megs.com/matterer/medpix/gallery4/mpix91.htm
>
>There are better examples, but this is one I could lay my browser on at
>short notice. I have also seen examples of a gathered cloth, without a top
>cloth:
>http://www.50megs.com/matterer/medpix/gallery2/mpix40.htm
>
>As far as the January Berry Hours picture goes, it looks to me like a
>single damask cloth, lightly pleated (draping naturally?), without a top
>cloth. They seem to be using little gold plates, rather than roundels.
>The big nef seems to be holding more little gold plates.
I'm afraid I can't see that on the Berry hours picture. Must be my eyes.
However, the pilgrim/roundel picture mentioned earlier has only a large
tablecloth, no valance. I have another picture which intrigues me greatly
along the same lines (sorry, I don't know its name or provenance):
It is obviously part of a larger picture, probably the bottom panel. No
cracks in the picture to tell ups whether it's on wood or not. Anyway, it
contrasts the life of the wicked rich with the humble-but-holy. Four arches
at the top, 2 devils in centre quatrefoils and a blessing hand on each outer
quatrefoil. Rich couple in centre have a tablecloth with decoration along
its length, and the cloth is pinned up to make a slight swagged effect - you
can see it's the same cloth as the top, because the top is wrinkled slightly
to compensate. The poor couple, on the other hand, have stripes going
across the width of the cloth, and the swags are pinned also, but this
doesn't seem to affect the top cloth. Moreover, the stripes are slightly
out of kilter on the valance part compared with the top. I wonder if this
is to show that hte rich can afford to have wide fabric? Nah - then King
Yon would have had the wider cloths, and the tavern wouldn't.
Cairistiona
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:42:38 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - roundels and tablecloths
morgana.abbey at juno.com writes:
<< A lot of hotels and banquet facilities use table skirts, which look very
much like that. >>
This is from a secondary source titled "The Rituals of Dinner (The Origins,
Evolution, Eccentricities, and Meaning of Table Manners) by Margaret Visser.
Copyright 1991. Harper Perennial ed. 1992 (Harper/Collins). ISBN
0-00-637909-5. $14.95.
...by the High Middle Ages they were even more expressive of the community of
the diners than was the table itself. "To share the cloth" of a nobleman was
to be seen as his equal. When a master dined with his servants at the same
table, either he was the only person with a cloth before him, or the whole
table was covered with a cloth but at his place another small napkin was
laid. One of the most horrible insults a medieval nobleman could endure
was.......
And......
Damascus in Syria was where all the best tablecloths came from. Damask was
patterned with lozenges and other figures....
And....At late medieval banquets, splendid cloths were laid over the simple
wooden boards used for tables........ There were several of them, typically
and under carpet first, then a large cloth covering the whole table, then two
upper ones each covering the tabletop and falling to the ground of one long
side. An "sanap" (French sauve-nappe or "tablecloth-saver") was a narrow
strip of cloth lying along the table edge nearest the diners, it took most of
the dirt from grubby or greasy wrists, and was presumably easier than damask
to wash. The sanap could be made of several layers of cloth, and might be
used only until the washing ceremony was over......
Hope this helps. Apparently the folds pictured are merely folds and not the
modern 'skirt' which apparently was, for the sake of economy in modern times
derived from them.
Ras
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:17:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terri Spencer <taracook at yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: SC - Re: tablecloths
"Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Well, yes, except that all the pictures I have in my possession show
> the table skirt to be between about 10 and 18 inches deep, by my
> approximation.
I don't know about the pleats, but this definition seems to imply the
long skirt and/or double cover on top were special:
Doublier: A long, and large Table-cloth of Damask, Diaper, &c. hanging
to the ground on both sides of the boord, and laid double thereon; a
Table-cloth for Princes, and great States. (Cotgrave 1611)
Temair
From: "deborah minyard" <dminmin at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] embroidered table linens
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:08:41 +0000
>Here is something that I have always made the
>assumption that it was period, but now am having
>trouble finding even out of period texts about.
>Embroidered table linens, or tableclothes etc.
I've got a picture with a woven tablecloth. It's used in a book on
renaissance costuming to show a particular fabric. It looks like little
dragon's and I bet if you used it somebody would tell you it wa too fantasy
Maddalena
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:39:18 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] embroidered table linens
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
ahrenshav at yahoo.com writes:
> Here is something that I have always made the
> assumption that it was period, but now am having
> trouble finding even out of period texts about.
> Embroidered table linens, or tableclothes etc. Has
> anyone done research on this?
I don't know about embroidered ones, but there was recently a Complete
Anachronist on Perugia towels, which are table linens woven with a decorative
pattern, some of which are apparently used as tablecloths - I believe the
references were mostly for Italy and maybe Germany, and 13th century on.
Brangwayna
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:43:42 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: embroidered table linens
Huette von Ahrens asked:
> Here is something that I have always made the
> assumption that it was period, but now am having
> trouble finding even out of period texts about.
> Embroidered table linens, or tableclothes etc. Has
> anyone done research on this?
Peter Brears in All the King's Cooks
mentions on page 164 in the chapter on
"Serving the King" that:
"George Villiers, sergeant of the ewery,
or his yeoman ewerer for the King's mouth,
would now lay a tablecloth of white linen
worked in damask with flowers, knots, crowns
or fleur-de-lis.(fn5 which cites the HO which
is the Household Ordinances) He does not mention
that the tableclothes used for dining in the
chamber and great hall where most dined were
worked in this fashion. This would apply for at
least Tudor England under Henry VIII.
Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: embroidered table linens
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
--- johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> wrote:
> Peter Brears in All the King's Cooks
> mentions on page 164 in the chapter on
> "Serving the King" that: <snip>
I have found a lot of references to damask
tablecloths, but damask is a weaving technique and not
an embroidery technique. The same with brocade. But
thanks for the reference.
Huette
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:24:21 -0400 (EDT)
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: embroidered table linens (fwd)
Response from a fiber laurel I forwarded the quote to:
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Munson,Jennifer N. wrote:
> Peter Brears in All the King's Cooks
> mentions on page 164 in the chapter on
> "Serving the King" that:
> "George Villiers, sergeant of the ewery,
> or his yeoman ewerer for the King's mouth,
> would now lay a tablecloth of white linen
> worked in damask with flowers, knots, crowns
> or fleur-de-lis.(fn5 which cites the HO which
> is the Household Ordinances) He does not mention
> that the tableclothes used for dining in the
> chamber and great hall where most dined were
> worked in this fashion. This would apply for at
> least Tudor England under Henry VIII.
"Damask" is actually not an embroidery technique, but a weaving one. It is
the effect you may recognize from seeing white woven tablecloths with
sections that catch the light differently from other sections. The
light-catching effect is made by making areas more warp-faced and their
neighbors more weft-faced. Damask as a technique goes back to Roman times
and custom figured damask towels were indeed very popular by the 16th
century.
Other techniques I know that were used on table linens:
Blue cotton thread (see the recent Compleat Anachronist on Perugia towels)
patterns, usually woven in geometric bands and more complicated figures, but
the effect could also have been produced with pattern-darning embroidery. I
don't recall whether anyone has found specific evidence that they actually
did that type of embroidery.
Figured sprang and lacis (cloth stitch embroidery on a net ground) were both
called "openwork". "Openwork" can also refer to cutwork embroidery. All
three techniques can be used to create the same effect - geometric solid
designs on an open mesh ground. It is very difficult if not impossible to
tell from written records which exact technique was used for a given
inventory item just described as a "towel with openwork"!
Sprang - There are documented pictures and at least one extant example of
linen circular-warp sprang table cloths from the 15th C.(per Peter
Collingwood's sprang book). Some historians theorize that sprang borders
could have been sewn onto plainweave towels for decoration. The extant one
is entirely sprang. The meshes on sprang would be diamonds, while the meshes
for lacis would be squares (relative to the selvedges).
Lacis was actually known as far back as 10th C. in Iceland. I'm not sure if
it remained in constant use through the following centuries, but became
common over much of Europe in the 16th century when other laces became
popular and loom-woven Burato nets started being produced in Italy. It would
have to be sewn onto the ends of a towel or table cloth.
Cutwork that looks like lacis may have only been invented in the late 15th
or 16th century as an imitation of lacis, but I'm not sure on that point. It
could be done by withdrawing threads from linen fabric and binding the
remaining threads into open and filled squares.
Other laces may have been applied to the borders of towels
& table cloths, as well as other types of whitework may have been done (like
German whitework of pulled thread techniques combined with stitches like stem
stitch and satin stitch to make an image).
Why only cotton and linen and not pretty dyed wools and silks? Because when you get a stain on your towel or table cloth, lye and other alkaline solutions make a great stain removers for linen and cotton but tend to eat away at wool and silk.
AnneLiese
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:47:27 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Embroidered table linens again
Last spring Huette von Ahrens on
Mon, 15 Apr 2002 posed the question regarding embroidery on table linens
saying that "Here is something that I have always made the
assumption that it was period, but now am having
trouble finding even out of period texts about.
Embroidered table linens, or tableclothes etc. Has
anyone done research on this?" Huette
--------------------
>From time to time I have come across various illuminations or paintings
that seem to show what she was looking for in this area and have sent
her the citation or the url for the image.
Today I found two more both by the same artist and since these were very
striking, I thought I would post this find to the list--
The works are The Last Supper by Domenico Ghirlandaio, 1480 (Florence)
and 1486 (San Marco).
They are on the web in a variety of places
but the best is probably the Web Gallery of Art--
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/g/ghirland/domenico/4lastsup/2ogniss.html
Or one can browse the works by searching on Author: ghirlandaio which
turns up 140 pictures found, Items 61-70 show the last suppers.
"The table is covered by a white tablecloth with blue embroidery.
Plates, decanters, glasses, saltcellars and knives are carefully
arranged in front of each table-guest, as are the bread and cherries. It
might even be the realistic and serene representation of a Florentine
table of the period."
from the description...
Take a look at the linen bands at the end of the tables. If you can find
the work in an actual book enlarged as a two page spread, it's quite
apparent that there are dragons between the bands.
The 1486 (San Marco) is at:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/g/ghirland/domenico/4lastsup/3smarco.html
This one features even more ornate bands.
The gallery offers details of both.
Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:55:17 EST
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Embroidered table linens again
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu writes:
> "The table is covered by a white tablecloth with blue embroidery.
> Plates, decanters, glasses, saltcellars and knives are carefully
> arranged in front of each table-guest, as are the bread and cherries. It
> might even be the realistic and serene representation of a Florentine
> table of the period."
> from the description...
> Take a look at the linen bands at the end of the tables. If you can find
> the work in an actual book enlarged as a two page spread, it's quite
> apparent that there are dragons between the bands.
But is this embroidery, or is it the "Perugia towels" (most of which aren't
towels at all) weaving technique which were covered in a Complete Anachronist
sometime in the last few years? I recall those being described as white with
blue designs on the ends, some containing motifs such as dragons.
I would think in a painting it would be very difficult to tell if the design
was woven in or embroidered.
Brangwayna
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:16:39 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Embroidered table linens again
Bronwynmgn at aol.com wrote:
> But is this embroidery, or is it the "Perugia towels" (most of which aren't
> towels at all) weaving technique which were covered in a Complete Anachronist
> sometime in the last few years? snipped
------------
I rather thought these looked like what is now called Assisi work
myself. I looked the article on the web by the author of the CA article
(http://hometown.aol.com/noramunro/Perugia/index.htm)
and still think that the linens in the two artworks cited look different
than what she presents on the webpage.
Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
From: "Rosine" <rosine at sybercom.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Embroidered table linens again
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:51:17 -0500
Check this site out... (Alianora's article on Perugian towels, complete
with photos, one if which is the table cloth you were talking about, I
believe, webbed on Karen Larsdatter's website) :
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/noramunro/Perugia/
Karen's got a bunch of other interesting stuff up too - eating and cooking
equipment, all sorts of things:
http://geocities.com/karen_larsdatter/karen.htm
Oh... I should say "Mistress Karen Larsdatter" - as of Atlantia's Crown
Tourney!
Rosine
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:41:18 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Embroidered table linens again
http://www.geocities.com/karen_larsdatter/feastgear.htm which is
Mistress Karen's one webpage lists the pictures but does not say that
they are Perugian borders. She does note that she thinks that in The
Marriage at Cana at http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pinfo?Object=41382+0+none
"The tablecloth has ornate decoration -- possibly embroidery, or very
complicated brocading." This is another that I had come across earlier
this fall.
Huette has commented and I agree that viewing these artworks on
the web has many drawbacks depending on one's vision and how
good a monitor we are using. It may take some trips to a good
fine ats library to find printed images with enough details to
tell us what we want to know.
Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:15:07 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval questioniare - tablecothes, buffets
and tisane
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Many thanks Saint Philip for providing the coquinaria address which I
copied and pasted, took the test and according to them I flunked the
tablecloth and the buffet questions but I totally disagree.
The tablecloth first introduced in Europe was by Ziryab, the Kurd,
founder of the first conservatory of music which was in Cordoba. His
tablecloth was leather. The surnape did not exist then on the 9th C.
Muslim Hispanos were instructed to clean their knives and hands on the
flatbread provided. Spaniards did not have trenchers. Yes, Rickert,
Edith. _The Babees? Book Medieval Manners for the Young: Done into
Modern English from Dr. Furnivall?s text_, New York, Cooper Square,
Publishers, Inc., New York, 1966 states:
p xxxi a young nobleman was instructed not to wipe his nose on the
tablecloth.
p 6 says to wipe your mouth with a cloth not the tablecloth so as not to
dirty the drinking cup.
p 14 repeats the above in poetry.
p 59 "Ye do not right to soil your table, nor to wipe your knives on
that, but on your napkin."
p 136 repeat: "Wipe thy mouth when thou shalt drink ale or wine
"On thy napkin only; and see all things be clean.
"Wipe thy mouth when thou shalt drink ale or wine
"On thy napkin only; and see all things be clean."
p 152: "
"Having a napkin
thereon them to wipe;
Thy mouth therewith
clean do thou make, . . "
p 164 again nose - handkerchief.
Suey
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:59:14 +1300
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval questioniare - tablecothes, buffets
and tisane
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Suey wrote:
> 1. The tablecloth first introduced in Europe was by Ziryab, the Kurd,
> founder of the first conservatory of music which was in Cordoba. His
> tablecloth was leather. The surnape did not exist then on the 9th C.
> Muslim Hispanos were instructed to clean their knives and hands on the
> flatbread provided. Spaniards did not have trenchers.
I don't think that's entirely correct. Ziryab (Abu al-Hasan Ali ibn
Nafi) may have introduced (or re-introduced) the tablecloth to
9th-century al-Andalus, but a very quick look through my own books
yields earlier examples of tablecloths in Europe. For example Roy
Strong's _Feast_ has a sixth-century Roman mosaic of the Last Supper
served on a tablecloth.
--
Adele de Maisieres
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Handwashing in 1500's Italian feast menus
Greetings,
There's something I've noticed when looking through two menus in Messisbugo, that recalled to mind something I had seen in the Scappi menus as well.
Just before the final course the top tablecloth was removed to reveal a clean one underneath, scented water was provided for hand washing, and in Scappi, they were given clean napkins.
From Messisbugo's Libro Novo, Menu in the Middle of August 1530
"And therein is removed one tablecloth and everything on the tables, and they are given sweet-smelling water for the hands."
Again from the Menu for the Eight of September 1531
"And there they removed tablecloth and everything on the table, and they are given sweet-smelling water for the hands,"
This was apparently not limited to only feasts or even evening meals, as looking through the Menu translations posted by Helewyse here:
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/octobermenus.html
You can see this mentioned in both Lunch and Dinner menus
From Scappi's Opera
Lunch on the 15th of October
"Raise the tablecloth, wash hands, change the white napkins"
The same is mentioned again in the dinner menu on the same day
"Raise the tablecloth, wash hands, change the white napkins"
In the August lunch and dinner menus on August 8th and 15 all this is mentioned each time in the same place in the menu, translated as: "Lift the tablecloth, give water to the hands, one changes to the white serviettes and one serves" the? Italian transcription is:
"Levata la tovaglia, & data l?acqua alle mani, si muteranno salviette candide"
This is listed immediately before the final course, and is seen consistently in both sources.
I've used the serving practices listed in Scappi's menus before, with each course alternately buffet style from the sideboard (Credenza) or served from the kitchen (Cuchina), but I have yet to attempt this changing of table linens and providing scented (I would guess rose, or citrus) water, before the final course and I'm wondering about the logistical feasibility of it. Perhaps this is something that could only work for a perfect period feast where all of the servers and diners are trained in what to expect as I can imagine the chaos and complaints that might ensue if I were to try this currently. Perhaps if there was a class on one of the etiquette manuals, or an overview of many? Any thoughts?
Raffaella
<the end>