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p-menus-msg – 10/17/14

 

Examples of medieval feast menus. Sources for period menus.

 

NOTE: See also the files: feast-serving-msg, ME-feasts-msg, feasts-msg, feast-decor-msg, feast-menus-msg, feast-ideas-msg, Run-a-Feast-art.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval menus

Date: 20 Sep 1996 05:19:28 GMT

 

> I am looking for sources that contain menus of meals served before 1650.

> I would like to also have recipes for the dishes in the menus or at least

> some idea of what was in each item.  A book discussing how the meals were

> put together would be great too!  Thanks!

> --

> Dottie Elliott

 

_Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_, Thomas Austin ed., published by

Early English Text Society, has menus for a bunch of feasts--but they are

humongous big royal feasts. It also has lots of recipes. Of course, they

are 15th century recipes, written in 15th century English and generally

omitting inessential details such as quantities, times and temperatures.

 

_The Goodman of Paris_ (Le Menagier de Paris) is a late 14th century book

that has quite a lot of menus for much more modest meals--more on the

order of a wedding feast for minor noble or wealthy bourgeois--along with

lots of recipes.

 

For lots of worked out period recipes, you might want to look at:

 

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/miscellany.html

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html

 

David/Cariadoc

--

ddfr at best.com

 

 

From: "Joseph M. Carlin" <foodbks at shore.net>

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval menus

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:22:13 -0400

Organization: Food Heritage Press

 

> I am looking for sources that contain menus of meals served before 1650.

> I would like to also have recipes for the dishes in the menus or at least

> some idea of what was in each item.  A book discussing how the meals were

> put together would be great too!  Thanks!

> --

> Dottie Elliott

 

Check out the medieval page at Http://www.shore.net/~foodbks

 

Joe Carlin

foodbks at shore.net

 

 

From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:17:48 -0500 (CDT)

Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #71

 

>Are you suggesting that meals were either all meat or all fish? I don't

>think the extant menus support that.

>Adamantius

 

Here we go---what's needed is some documentation. Robert May planned a

Christmas Day Menu (The Accomplisht Cook). My Source: Old Cook Books, An

Illuminated History, Eric Quayle 1978.

 

Here it is:

Oysters

A Collar of Brawn

Stewed Broth of Mutton  marrow bones

A grand Sallet

A Pottage of Caponets

A Breast of Veal in Stoffado

A Boil'd Partridge

A chine of Beef, or surloin roast

Minced pies

A jegote of mutton with anchovie sauce

A made dish of sweet-bread

A swan roast

A pasty of venison

A kid with a pudding in his belly

A steak pie

A haunch of Venison roasted

A turkey roast and stuck with cloves

A made dish of chickens in puff paste

Two bran geese roasted, one larded

Two large capons, one larded

A Custard

 

The Second Course for the Same Mess

 

Oranges and Lemons

A young lamb or kid

Two couple of rabbits, two larded

A pig souc'd with tongues

Three ducks, one larded

Three pheasants, one larded

A Swan Pye

Three brace of Partridge, three larded

Made dish in Puff Paste

Bolonia sausages, and anchovies, and pickled oysters in a dish, with

mushrooms and Caviare

Six teals, three larded

A Gammon of Westphalia Bacon

Ten ploves, five larded

Aquince pye or warden pye

Six woodcocks, three larded

A Standing tarte in puff paste, preserved fruits, pippins,&c.

A dish of larks

Six dried neat's tongues

Sturgeon

Powdered Geese (yes, that's what it says)

Jellies.

 

Aoife

 

 

From: Uduido at aol.com

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:31:55 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: SC - Menu, Meat with Fish

 

In a message dated 97-04-23 14:23:26 EDT, you write:

 

<< But I don't see

> a single menu here that supports the notion that fish was generally

> eaten on meat days;  >>

 

Taken from "Le Menagier de Paris (circa 1395 c.e.); Translated by Janet

Hinson". Emphasis is my own:

 

IV. Another MEAT dinner

 

First Dish: Rich Pasties; a stew of meat, beef marrow fritters, SMOKED EELS,

LOACH IN WATER and cold sage soup, coarse meat and SALTWATER FISH

 

Second Dish: The best roast you can make and FRESHWATER FISH,  a bacon gruel,

a slab of meat, capon pies and thin pancakes, BREAM PIES,  EEL PIES, and

fricasse.

 

Third Dish: Frumenty, venison, LAMPREY IN HOT SAUCE, fried bread slices,

BREAM ROASTED and meat,tarts, STURGEON  and jelly.

..........................................................

 

Here is another menu from the same source that also combines meat and fish:

 

VI. Another MEAT Dinner

 

First Dish. Fresh beans, a cinnamon broth, a stew of black hare, A GREEN SOUP

OF EELS,  SMOKED HERRING, coarse meat. turnips, TENCH SOUPS, SALTED SCIAENAS

AND OLIVES, beef marrow rissoles and skewers of beef ut pa.

 

Second dish. Roast the best that you can, SWEETWATER FISH, SALTWATER FISH,

PLAICE IN WATER, forcemeat in hot sauce like lampreys, A SHAD SOUP G. I. G.,

peach flower, portioned fricasse, Lombardy tarts, pies of venison and smalll

birds, sweet chestnuts, FRESH HERRING.

 

Third dish. Frumenty, venison, browned (vegetables), FISH JELLIES,  fat

capons a la dodine,  ROAST OF FISH, fried bread slices and meat tarts,

JELLIED EELS, CRAYFISH, thin pancakes and little sausages.

 

Lord Ras

 

 

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:22:44 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts

 

>> From: Steve Muhlberger

>> To: Middlebridge

>> Subject: [Mid] Feasts

>> 

>> I have a preference in feasts.

>> 

>> I like feasts to be a reasonable length.

>> 

>> In the Middle Ages, from what I can tell, the big fancy feasts were

>> standalone events.  You had a feast and it was the one event that day.

 

(forwarded from Middlebridge to SCA Cooks)

 

Much as I hate to take issue with the noble and learned Finnvairr ...   .

 

Chiquart makes it clear that he intends to serve two meals each day. The

big 16th c. German cookbook I have (admittedly, a little late for medieval)

gives lots of menus, each in the form of an early meal and a night meal, I

assume lunch and dinner.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:42:31 -0500

From: margali <margali at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: SC - menu, 1571-longish

 

> But what did they consider "proper" meal planning in the middle ages?

> How did they decide whether to put the fish before or after the

> chicken?  Did they always have a vegetable in each course and bread at

> each meal; or are these modern-day affectations we've incorporated

> into SCA feasts?

> Anyone have any insight on Medieval Menu Planning?

>         - kat

 

This is a menu dating to 1571, preserved in the archives of the northern

dept of france, ref larousse gastronomie

 

bill of fare for the nuptual dinner of master baulde cuvillon

first course

salads of various kinds

flesh of prinsels with parsley and vinegar[savoury preserves]

mutton broth

fricasse of gosling

spring chickens with spinach

cold saille

pigeons a la tremoulette

roast joints of mutton

roast brest of veal

small pastries with hot sauce

roast roebuck

dainty pate

spring chickens in aspic

sweetened mustard

 

second course

venison broth

roast capon

orange salad

roast pheasants

roast rabbits

roast spring chickens, some stuffed some larded

cheriots

roast quail

roast crousets

smoked tongue

boulogne sausages

pheasant pates

pate of meaux hams

crousets pates

turkey or peacock pate

venison pate

leg of lamb daube

capon in aspic

roast swan

sweetened mustard

olives

 

dessert

mousse tart

apple tart

chervil tart

jam tart

cream flan

gohier

waffles

pate of pears

clove apple

pears in mead

sartelles pears

angelots

morbecque

gren walnuts

fresh fruit

ample jelly

cheese

 

this is observeably heavy in fats, proteins and stuff guaranteed to make

your capillaries scream for mercy.

 

margali

 

 

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 12:02:11 -0500

From: Dottie Elliott <macdj at onr.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts

 

In my looking at menus from the times (mostly coronation and ordination

menus so far), they have had usually 3 courses with various entrements in

between and as many as 30 - 40 dishes served. However, one needs to keep

in mind that no one ate from all the dishes. There were different dishes

for different levels of society.  I don't think I have yet found any

menus with more than 3 courses.

 

Clarissa

 

 

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:15:41 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - period feast menus

 

At 11:04 AM +0000 11/14/97, Mark Harris wrote:

>I have a little bit on period feast menus in my file p-menus-msg. I would

>love to have more actual menus or referances for this file. Does anyone

>have good recommendation for where people should go look for period menu

>examples. (hmmm. And I mean the book names, not "the library". shesh.)

 

Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books has very high class menus. _Le

Menagier_ has much less pretentious ones.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:27:15 -0500

From: "Gedney, Jeff" <gedje01 at mail.cai.com>

Subject: RE: SC - meat days and fast days - MIXED?

 

Allison opined:

> Since there seems to be a negative reaction among a number of cooks in

> regard to accomodating vegetarians, can we just forget that word?  We

> have menus from period that list fast day type of food for church

> members.  'Ecclesiastical' is a bit much to type constantly, and 'fast

> food', while punny to most of us, may confuse newcomers.  What term might

> people like?  Church food?  Priest dish?  Perhaps this would make this

> preparation more 'palatable' to us, the Kitchen Stewards.

 

Unfortunately, fast day food is not always possible as a vegetarian

alternative either. Much fast day food is really just the same meals with

fish instead of meat, and almond milk instead of dairy. Some Vegetarians do

not eat fish (to say nothing of the period use of porpoise and whale meat on

"fish days"!!).

 

Personally, I think that a few vegetarians trying to set the agenda for the

rest of us is a bit arrogant, regardless of the purity of their motivations.

If a vegetarian does not want to eat meat at a feast, they can always bring

a bag of carrots, and munch "off board".

 

It is just that, predominately, in period, there was a preponderance of

meats in the feast menus, and the assumption is therefore made that on

non-feast times, people ate very little meat. (if they ate like that at

every meal, then they would have died of heart failure very early!!).

Unfortunately, for Vegetarians, we are recreating feast menus, not everyday

food. Anyway, feast food seems to be what survived in books which we can use

as sources.

 

See what I mean, in this menu from a 14th century manuscript at the Beineke

Library at Yale:

 

(idiomatic language translated to modern English)

For the knights table, the first course: Venison with frumente, Viand Bruce,

Boars Head, Swan Roasted, Pike in sauce, Custard Lumbard, and a soteltie,

The second Course: a pottage called gelly, and pottage blanc de sore, Roast

pig, Roast Kid, Chickens Endored, Bream in sauce, tartes, Brawn bruse,

Roasted Coneys, and a soteltie. The third course: Bruet of almayne, Stewed

Lumbard, Roast venison, roast peacocks, roast partridge, pidgeons, rabbits,

Roast larks, Payne Puffe, Boiled partridge, a dish of jelly, Long Frittore.

 

- --- 10 meats, 7 birds, 3 fish by my count and none without some kind of

meat or fish product used in the preparation.

(Not to mention the kings table which has even more meat dishes in it.)

 

The point of this is that there would be little place at our table for

vegetarians if we were truly "in period". I think that vegetarians should

just accept the fact that what we are recreating was not the Vegetarian

Middle Ages, but the European Middle Ages, Where if it was alive, and did

not talk back to you, you could eat it, and often did!!!

 

References:

An Ordinance of Pottage       By Constance Heiatt

Pleyn Delite                  By Constance Heiatt

All Manners of Food           By Stephen Mennell

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:02:44 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - Period Coronation Feast Menus

 

At 10:15 PM -0800 2/15/99, Elisabeth Borden wrote:

>     I was wondering if anyone knew of any urls for period coronation

>feast menus.  I've tried a ton of combinations of words on various

>search engines, but I can't seem to come up with any.

 

I don't know any on-line sources, but if you have access to _Two Fifteenth

Century Cookery Books_, ed. Thomas Austin, Early English Text Society, he

lists a fair number of menus of English feasts, including at least one

coronation as well as the installation of a bishop, etc.  Many university

libraries have the Early English Text Society series.

 

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:41:05 -0400

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: SC - funeral feast - period menu - ON topic

 

Here is a period menu for the Funeral Feast of

Nicholas Bubwith, Bishop of Bath and Wells, December 4th, 1424.  This menu

includes a separate fish feast for the clergy.

 

Harleian MS. 279.

 

Le .j. cours.

Nomblys de Roo.

Blamangere.

Braun, cum Mustard.

Chynes de porke.

Capoun Roste de haut grece.

Swan Roste.

Heroun Rostyd.

Aloes de Roo.

Puddyng de Swan necke.

Vn Lechemete.

Vn bake, videlicet Crustade.

 

Le .ij. cours.

Ro Styuyd.

Mammenye.

Connyng Rostyd.

Curlew.

Fesaunt Rostyd.

Wodecokke Roste.

Pertryche Roste.

Plouer Roste.

Snytys Roste.

Grete byrdes Rosted.

Larkys Rostyd.

Vennysoun de Ro Rostyd.

Yrchouns.

Vn leche.

Payn puffe.

Colde bakemete.

 

Conuiuium de piscibus pro viris Religiosis ad funeralia predicta.

 

Le .j. cours.

Elys in sorry.

Blamanger.

Bakoun heryng.

Mulwyl taylys.

Lenge taylys.

Jollys of Samoun.

Merlyng so[th]e.

Pyke.

Grete Plays.

Leche barry.

Crustade Ryal.

 

Le .ij. cours.

Mammenye.

Crem of Almaundys.

Codelyng.

Haddok.

Freysse hake.

Solys y-so[th]e

Gurnyd broylid with a syryppe.

Brem de Mere.

Roche.

Perche.

Menus fryid.

Yrchouns.

Elys y-rostyd.

Leche lumbard.

Grete Crabbys.

A cold bakemete.

 

Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu

renfrow at skylands.net

 

 

Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:17:10 EST

From: RuddR at aol.com

Subject: SC - Re: Why not turkey?

 

Phillipa writes:

> Why wouldn't they have eaten turkey?  It was native.  It was there.

 

For what it's worth, I found a newspaper clipping from Thanksgiving, several

years ago.  This seems to be a Plimoth Plantation recreation of what might

have been served:

 

"First Feast

 

The menu for the historical recreation of the 1621 harvest feast between

English colonists and Wampanoag Indians that inspired the Thanksgiving

holiday.

 

Seethed Lobster

A Goose, Roasted

A Turkie, Boyled

A Fricase of Coney (rabbit)

A Pudding of Indian Corn with dried Whorleberries

A Cod, Seethed

A Brace of Ducks, Roasted

Pompion (pumpkin) Stew'd

A Haunch of Venison, Raosted

A Savory Pudding of Hominy

A Dish of Fruit and Holland Cheese

Mustard

Water

Watered Wine

 

Source: Plimoth Plantation"

 

Rudd Rayfield

 

 

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <harper at idt.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: a curly question re food history

Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 19:33:41 -0500

 

Maggie Forest wrote:

> I've been doing some research on Medieval Scandinavian food, and came

> across a reference to the household accounts for the Bishop of

> Linkoping in the 1520's, which apparently contain lists of all the

> menus of all the meals served in his household during that year. Does

> anyone know if this list, or the accounts in total, have been

> published anywhere?

 

Some of it is online -- in English! -- at:

http://www.bahnhof.se/~chimbis/tocb/recipes/menus/brask/index.html

 

If you do a web search on "Hans Brask", you will come up with several

hundred hits. Most of which are in those Scandinavian languages that

you read (and I do not).

 

There is an article by Bi Skaarup, "Sources of Medieval Cuisine in

Denmark" in _Du manuscrit a la table_.  (Edited by Carole Lambert, Les

Presses de L'Universite de Montreal, 1992, ISBN 2-7606-1564-2)  It's

only 5 pages, and the section on Bishop Brask is 3/4 page long, *but*

it has a citation to a published source:

 

Hildebrand, Hans, ed., "Matordningen i bishop Hans Brasks hus" Kongl.

Vitterhets Historie och Antiquitets Akademiens Maanadsblad, no. 157

and no. 159 (1885), pp. 1-21 and pp. 141-142

 

> I can just imagine the look on the local librarian's face if I turn up

> with this request cold; so I thought I'd try here first.

 

I'm probably not local to you, but I'm a librarian, and I think it's a

*wonderful* question.

 

Hope this helps.  Good luck with your research.

--

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East

 

 

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:54:49 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>

Subject: Re: WAS: SC - questions

 

We often do not have the facility to cook what is called for.

Many banquets seen in Period illumination had under 50 feasters, some under 20.

Therefore it was possible to server 7 varieties of Fowl, 5 varieties of meat, all roasted, number of made dishes, and a bunch of baked goods.

 

To attempt that on a scale of hundreds of feasters would require herculean efforts by a huge number of cooks in an absolutely humongous kitchen.

(They used servants in castles, we use volunteers in rented church basements)

 

I'll post an example I have from Heiatt's "Ordinance of Pottage" (that is the book I have on hand here at work )

( I am adapting the language for readability )

For the Knight's table, The First Course: boiled Venison with Frumente,

Vyand bruce, Boars' heads, Roast Swan, Pike in Sauce, Custard lumbard,

and a soteltie. The Second course: A potage caled gely, an Potage blanc

de sore, Roast pig, Roast Kid, Chicken endored, Breme in sauce, tarts,

brawn bruse, Roast Rabbit, and a soteltie. The third Course: Bruet of almayne,

Stewed Lumbard, Roast venison, Roast peacock, Roast partridge, pidgeons,

young Rabbits, Roast Larks, Puff pastry, Boiled partridge, A Dish of jelly,

long Fritters.

 

For the King's table, The First Course: boiled Venison with Frumente,

Vyand bruce, Great Chunks of meat, Boars' heads, Roast Swan, Fatted

Capons, Roast Swan, Roast Pheasant, Great tarts, and a soteltie. The

Second course: Blanc de sore, Roast pig, Roast Kid, Crane, Pheasant,

herons, Roast Chicken, Braised Breme, tarts, brawn bruse,

Roast Rabbit, and a soteltie. The third Course: Bruet of almayne,

Stewed Lumbard, Roast venison, Egret, Chickens, partridge, pidgeons,

young Rabbits, Roast Quail and larks, Puff pastry, Boiled perch, A Dish of jelly, long Fritters, and a soteltie.

 

 

Roast dishes  = 11, 16 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately

Boiled and probably boiled dishes =  14, 22 if preparing Kings and knights

tables separately made dishes = 8, 14 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately fried/Baked items = 4, 7 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately Sotelties = 3, 5 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:32:32 -0700

From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com>

Subject: SC - Period Menus

 

Hi all,

on the topic of period Menus, here's a bit of DeNola's Libre de Guisados as

translated by Marianne Perdomo Machin:

 

"It is also customary to give table cloth with each potagge, and to give the

victuals from degree to degree, that is: first the fruit, and after it a

pottage; and then roast, then another pottage and then cooked [things, like

stews]; unless its is manjar blanco, for this pottage is usually given at

the beginning, after the fruit. Some lords eat at first all that is stewed,

and then all that is roasted. If there are frying pan fruits [*] it must be

given afterwards, as it were, and then the other fruit."

 

* frying pan fruits: basically cheese or fruit in dough, deep-fried or

something

along those lines

 

 

Eden’s summation:

 

Fruit

Pottages (blancmanges)

Roasts

Pottages

Stews

Fritters

fruit

 

 

So far I haven't found a menu from the Spanish sources that's been

translated into English, but at least with this as a guide I can start to

construct something *like* a period meal.  Hopefully by the time we're done

with the recipe reconstructions stage we're currently working on I will have

found some actual menus to look at as well, if not I'll probably work with

the menus from the Neapolitan collection to supplement this.

 

one of the Neapolitan menus calls for only 18 dishes, which is quite

feasible. Interestingly it's broken out into 7 courses (some with only 1

dish) and we were just talking at a recent Madrone Culinary Guild mtg about

breaking our banquets up into a larger number of courses with fewer dishes

in each of them so as to make serving up each course easier & help guarantee

that delicate foods went out to the hall at the right time etc... (we're

extremely fussy about this "hot food goes to the table hot" being one of our

mantras)

 

Eden - who wants about 200 of those lovely covered serving dishes you see in

the period illustrations of feasts :->

 

Eden Rain

raghead at liripipe.com

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:59:20 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>

Subject: Re: SC - questions

 

> I may have to stand corrected on this.  But I have to ask whether these are

> the kind of feast menus we have been discussing?  I have not seen them.

 

Well, Le Menagier appears to give 24 different menus, though they don't

seem quite as expansive as the ones mentioned here--- or as detailed.

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne at tulgey.browser.net

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:18:18 +0200

From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>

Subject: Re: SC - questions

 

<snip> Does anyone have, or have seen, any manor house or castle

>inventories in which quantities of meats and game birds jumped anywhere near

>these levels in actual history?  That would be a better indication of how

>much food was actually (rather than theoretically) served at a feast.  I am

>not, at present, prepared to believe that the Du Fait referrence is an actual

>account of feast preparations.

>Balthazar of Blackmoor

 

Here you are.  This is the only shopping list I've got typed in.  I think

there is another in Le Menagier.

 

 

Harleian MS. 4016

 

This is the purveyance made for King Richard, who was with the Duke of

Lancaster at the Bishop's place of Durham at London, the 23rd day of

September, in the 12th year of the king's reign. [A.D. 1387.]

 

The shopping list:

Xiiij. oxen lying in salte.      14 salted oxen

IJ. oxen ffreyssh.         2 fresh oxen

Vixx. hedes of shepe fressh.     6 score (120) fresh sheep heads

Vixx. carcas of shepe fressh.    6 score (120) fresh sheep carcasses

Xij. Bores.                 12 Boars

Xiiij. Calvys.                     14 Calves

Cxl. pigges.                140 pigs

CCC. maribones.                    300 marrowbones

Of larde and grece, ynogh.       Of lard & grease, enough

IIJ. ton of salt veneson. 3 tuns of salted venison

IIJ. does of ffressh veneson.    3 does of fresh venison

The poultry:

L. Swannes.                 50 Swans

CCx. Gees.                  210 Geese

L. capons of hie grece.           50 fat capons

Viii. dussen o[th]er capons.     8 dozen other capons

Lx. dd Hennes.                     60 dozen Hens

CC. copull Conyngges.             200 couple Coneys

IIIJ. Fesauntes.           4 Pheasants

V. Herons and Bitores.            5 Herons & Bitterns

Vi. kiddes.                 6 kids

V. disson pullayn for Gely.      5 dozen pullets for Jelly

Xij. dd. to roste.         12 dozen [pullets] to roast

C. dd. peions.                     100 dozen pigeons

Xij. dd. partrych.         12 dozen partridges

Viij. dd. Rabettes.        8 dozen Rabbits

X. dosen Curlewes.         10 dozen Curlews

Xij. dosen Brewes.         10 dozen Brewes

Xij. Cranes.                12 Cranes

Wilde fowle ynogh.         Wild fowl enough

VJxx. galons melke.        6 score (120) gallons milk

Xij. galons Creme.         12 gallons Cream

Xl. galons of Cruddes.            11 gallons of Curds

Ilj. bushel[3] of Appelles.      3 bushels of Apples

Xj. thousand egges.        11,000 eggs.

 

 

 

Harleian MS. 4016

 

The resultant feast, given for King Richard II by the Bishop of Durham, at

Durham House, London, on September 23rd, 1387:

The Third Course.

Potage. bruete of Almondes.

Stwde lumbarde.

Venyson rosted.

Chekenes rosted.

Rabettes rosted.

Partrich rosted.

Peions rosted.

Quailes rosted.

Larkes rosted.

Payne puff/.

A Dissh of Gely.

Longe Frutours.

And a Sotelte.

 

The First Course.

Veneson with Furmenty.

A potage called viaundbruse.

Hedes of Bores.

Grete Flessh.

Swannes rosted.

Pigges rosted.

Crustade lumbard in paste.

And a Sotelte.

 

The Second Course.

A potage called Gele.

A potage de Blandesore.

Pigges' rosted.

Cranes rosted.

Fesauntes rosted.

Herons rosted.

Chekens endored.

Breme.

Tartes.

Broke braune.

Conyngges rosted.

And a sotellte.

 

 

Cindy Renfrow

cindy at thousandeggs.com

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:36:07 -0600 (MDT)

From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse)

Subject: SC - sca-cooks #2366 menus and Hollopotrida

 

2ndly... Rumpolt has dozens of menus listed in the first part of Ein New

Kochbuch. Everything from the nightmeal for Kings and Emperors to an early

meal for farmers (still with several courses..)  In fact each of the groups

he has banquet menus for he gives 4 different versions...

2 early meals one for a meat day and one for a fast day, and 2 night meals,

also one for a meat day and one for a fast day.  All in all there are many

MANY banqueting menus listed.  

 

Gwen Cat

 

 

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 02:11:40 +0200

From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>

Subject: SC - Period menues and dishes

 

Apart from cookbooks, there are other sources/ articles that allow or

help to reconstruct menues:

 

1. -- There are investigations about certain courts. E.g., Gerhard

Fouquet published an investigtion about eating and drinking at the court

of Bishop Matthias Rammung of Speyer around 1470. Among other things, he

used bills, accounts and the "Ordenunge, wie es mit den kochen zu

ydertzit in unser kuchen solle gehalten werden" (Ordinance of cooking/

for the cooks; I'll put this document online not later than 2013). One

of his findings was, that the meals of everyday were _very_ much simpler

than the meals of representation: "auch am Hof des Speyerer Bischofs

wurde f¸r das Fest gespart" (p.21).

 

2. -- There are bills and accounts, e.g. used in Giovanna Frosini, Il

cibo e i signori (Florence, 14th century), or in Ulf Dirlmeier's book

about the income and the cost of living in the cities of southern

Germany in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries. In addition, there is much

to find in the archives about food in official contexts, though not

everything is transcribed yet, let alone translated or commented on. See

for example:

http://134.76.229.28/duderstadt/ab/reihe68/html_seiten/7121b001.r.html

Basically, this kind of source reveals what was bought, on which

occasion, in which quantities, and for what price. Hard work, however.

 

3. -- There are diaries and chronicles with reports about meals and

menues. Fouquet mentions: Helmut Hundsbichler: Reise, Gastlichkeit und

Nahrung im Spiegel der Reisetageb¸cher des Paolo Santonio. (1485-1487).

Diss. Wien 1979; somebody recently mentioned the menu, that was served,

when Charles V. came to some city in southern Germany. (I took a note

somewhere; could look it up.)

 

4. -- Apart from the menu sections in the cookbooks already mentioned

(e.g. Rumpolt), there is the work of Messisbugo (1557), a book with many

menues, e.g. the "Cena che fece il Conte Galeazzo Estense Tassone allo

Illustri?imo & Eccellenti?imo Signor Duca nostro, ... & fu di dominica

nel Carneuale del 1537" (25b).

 

5. -- There is Jean Louis Flandrins 'Structure des menus francais et

anglais aux XIVe et XVe siecles' (accents left out), in which he

analyses the menues of the Menagier, of Ms. Harley 279 and of the menues

in the Antiquitates culinariae.

 

6. -- The dietetic texts also say something about the order, in which

different food stuffs should be served.

 

Thomas

 

 

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:24:30 -0700

From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com>

Subject: SC - Period menus

 

here's one of the shorter menus from menagier just for example.  it's only

18 dishes, well within the ability of an SCA group to produce.  there are

only 2 fish dishes and most of the rest is fairly normal food - if you eat

bambi & thumper :->  Follow it with some wafers & hippocras & you'd have a

fine meal.

 

Eden

 

from Le Menagier de Paris  Translated by Janet Hinson  (with notes by

Elizabeth Cook)

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier_Contents.html

 

IX. Another Meat Dinner.

 

First dish. White beets, beef pies, olives and sciaenas[an edible fish

(JH)]., soup of hares and coneys, a pie of shad, coarse meat.

 

Second dish. Roast: boar's tail with hot sauce 26, decorated fricassee,

olives, sweetened milk with crusts in it, venison, browned [vegetables],

jellies, crusts in milk a la dodine, capon pies, cold sage soup, pies of cow

and talemouse[13].

 

[13]cut bread? (JH). But according to Terrance Scully, this is a kind of

cheese and egg pie (EGC).

 

Eden Rain

raghead at liripipe.com

 

 

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:18:55 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - Menus and Veggies (was: German cookbook...)

 

Gwen Catrin von Berlin wrote:

>I am working on translating and webbing (in English) "Ein New Kochbuch" 1581,

>by Marxen Rumpolt.  The corrected Salad section has been added to the web,

>but I am taking a small break in the baked goods chapter, to get a

>transcription and translation of the selection of "sample feasts" he has in

>the first 40+ pages of the book.

>I will be the Koch for the Barony of Caerthe 's Arts & Sciences Competition

>feast in early November, and would like to keep it period, documentable, and

>DELICIOUS!

>(Ya'll come now, Ya hear !!!)

>so I wanted a better base of how he claims a feast was constructed.  I am

>rather appalled how LITTLE veggie matter is listed in the actual menus.

 

This seems to be typical. As I remember, the English menus (royal

feasts, installation of a bishop, etc.) quoted by Austin in _Two

Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_ have no or almost no vegetables

listed. I have just been looking through Le Menagier's menus, and he

typically has a couple of vegetables listed out of about 20 or 30

dishes for a meat-day dinner, and maybe three or four for a similar

fish-day dinner. It might be that vegetables were thought of as

lower-class, what you bought when you couldn't afford better, and

therefore weren't much eaten at feasts or elaborate dinners. Or it

could be that they were eaten but not mentioned any more than the

bread was. I remember that Chiquart, after going through in detail

the meats, spices, eggs, dried fruit, etc., needed for his

prospective feast, says rather dismissively:

 

"And so that the workers are not idle, and so that they do not lack

for anything, there should be delivered funds in great abundance to

the said kitchen masters to get salt, pot-vegetables and other

necessary things which might be needed, which do not occur to me at

present."

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:46:02 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Menus and Veggies (was: German cookbook...)

 

Elizabeth wrote:

> bread was. I remember that Chiquart, after going through in detail

> the meats, spices, eggs, dried fruit, etc., needed for his

> prospective feast, says rather dismissively:

>

> "And so that the workers are not idle, and so that they do not lack

> for anything, there should be delivered funds in great abundance to

> the said kitchen masters to get salt, pot-vegetables and other

> necessary things which might be needed, which do not occur to me at

> present."

 

Taillevent says pretty much the same thing, IIRC, regarding the simple

[vegetable] pottages which, he says, any housewife knows how to make and

which need not concern us here. Le Menagier does include some recipes

for these, though. I guess his bride wasn't just any housewife.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:31:40 EDT

From: RuddR at aol.com

Subject: SC - Re: order of service of a meal

 

Phillipa writes:

> I have been reading _Fast and Feast_ and _The Medieval Kitchen_.  I am

> trying to get a sense of how the medieval / renaissance feast is served.

>

> In _The Medieval Kitchen_ the authors list some suggestions for serving a

> feast.  Am I correct in thinking that each course is a "little meal" sort of

> unto itself.  (I've been to several feasts and it seemed like that was the

> case)  I am having a hard time getting the 20th C model out of my head.

> And:

> Does a meal ALWAYS start with wine?

 

A good source for the ordering of medieval dinners can be found in Two

Fifteenth-century Cookery-Books, ed. Thomas Austin. There is a section at the

end of Harleian MS 279, listing the menus for several historic dinners and

feasts. It can be found online at:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/bin/me-idx?type=HTML&;rgn=DIV1&byte=3391465

starting on page 57 and running to page 64.

 

Each course can indeed be seen as a separate meal ("little" hardly seems to

be the word for some of the courses listed), and could be akin to sitting

down to luncheon, dinner and supper without getting up in between.

 

Rudd Rayfield

 

 

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:45:34 -0400

From: "Gaylin J. Walli" <gwalli at ptc.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: order of service of a meal

 

Another good source other than the 2 15th Cent that

Rudd Rayfield recommended is Platina. You have to

search through it a bit, but Platina details what should

be served first, what should be served in the first

course, which dishes should be served with roasted

meats, when eggs should be served, what should be

served in the third course, etc. etc. I'm still looking

for what he thinks should be served in the 2nd course.

I personally think he forgot to put it in the book, cause

I must have read the damn thing 25 times already and

I've not been able to see it. :)

 

Iasmin de Cordoba, gwalli at ptc.com or iasmin at home.com

 

 

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:54:21 -0600 (MDT)

From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse)

Subject: SC - 4 banquests 4 kings

 

OK, here is a rough translation of the four banquets, I still need to do some

cleanup on it, and there are (in all caps) some words I have not been able to

translate. I am considering using one of the 2 meat day feasts as a basis

for the feast at  Caerthe's A&S Competition in November. (though I know I

dont have budget (or other sources) for venison, grouse, mutton, and goose....)

 

OH, and I did find one phrase in the second meat day banquet for Emporers

that sounds like the reference for... 'Serve side/veggie (zugemu:esz) dishes

as are appropriate, and also sauces (dips) to accompany the meats.'

 

I do have a transcription of the German, but since few enough folks on list

read it I will ask that if you want it, contact me directly (Or you might

want to wait till Thomas has had a chance to make any corrections needed, and

webbed it on his site.)

 

As always, feedback is appreciated!!!

 

In service to the dream,

Gwen Catrin von Berlin

________________________

 

Now follow four

banquets of the Kings

in Hungary and Bohemia/ therein is noted/ what

food and acutremetns/ not only on the meat/ but also

on the fast days/ are prepared.

 

The first course for the early meal/ on a meat day.

A large piece (of) Beef/ and smoked meat therby/

of all sorts of smoked meat.     1

Two capons in a soup/ anf of assorted roasted (things)

on top/ as follows/ specifically/ A Venison

loin roast/ also a roast leg of veal / and

roasted on a Hazelwood skewet (rotissery)/ a part rubbed with garlic/ A veal

braturst/ a pork bratwurst/ and small birds roasted/ all

put with the capons onto the soup/ That is called Hungarian

saddled soup.

 

The other course.

Thirty young chickens cooked yellow in the Hungarian style/ of those

two for the master of the yard/ two for the master of the Kitchen/ and two

for them that cooked it/ the other

four and twenty served in silver.       3

 

<<19b>>

 

The third course.

Sixty capons/ prarie chickens/ snipe/ BIRKHAHNEN/

and wood grouse/ also assorted bird small and large/ and one calls

it small roasts/ and also thereto young chickens and pheasants.  4

 

The fourth course.

Pork wild-game (assorted cuts?) cooked in pepper in the Hungarian style/ A

sour kraut

cooked with a smoked bacon/ and dried sausages/ and also with

smoked capons and chickens.      5

 

The fifth course.

Two beef roasts/ A roasted Pig/ A veal roast/

A whole young lamb roasted/ A mutton haunch roasted/ A roasted

goose/ A roasted wood grouse/ and also a young kid (goat!) roasted/

That one calls large roasts.     6

 

The sixth course.

A Rice cooked in milk      7

Kid meat (young goat) cooked green in the Hungarian style.       8

A large Hungarian torte.  9

A wild game Pie.    10

A white gelatine of pork/ made with garlic.  11

 

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/

be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/

with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved

fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

 

End of the first banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/

for the early meal/ on a meat day.

 

<<20a>>

 

The other banquet / of kings in

Hungary and Bohemia

 

The first course for the evening meal/ on a meat day

Firstoff assorted salad/ A smoked pig/ hard boiled

eggs and assorted smoked meat/ around the salad

arranged.     1

A quarter of a mutton/ and two capons that

are smoked/ watered (soaked)/ and in a clear soup/

with whole pepper/ ginger/ nut meg blossom (mace)/ and parsely sprinkled.     2

A whole venison (doe) cooked with blod in the Hungarian style.   3

Sixteen capons for small roasts/ with assorted fowl.       4

Kid (young goat) meat yellow/ with a wine soup.     5

A pie of wild boar (?)/ And a green cabbage also

thereto.      6

A cooked veal meat with verjuice/ Thereto a Hungarian torte

with many leaves (layers) 7

Thereafter large roasts/ as described earlier in the early meal/

Also sauces (for dunking) as belong with roasts.    8

 

The other course.

A wild boars head cooked cold/ A pressed Boarshead/

and thereto old chickens white/ cooked with sour limes (lemons?).       9

 

The third course.

Two whole roasted rabbits/ with an apple sauce (???)       10

Barley cooked/ with veal sausages.     11

 

The fourth course.

Young goose cooked with blood/ in the Hungarian style.     12

A gelatine made of old chickens yellow/ A large piece of beef/

and also white peas cold with Maluasier (sweet wine?)      13

 

 

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/

be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/

with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved

fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

 

End of the first banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/

for the evening meal/ on a meat day.

 

<<20b>>

 

The third banquet / of kings in

Hungary and Bohemia

 

The first course for the early meal/ on a Fast day

An almond soup.     1

A pea soup/ with pike stomachs/ or with pike

livers/ and parsely root. 2

Cooked eggs  3

A fried (roasted) pike with a garlic.  4

Eggs and Schmaltz (rendered and seasoned fat) with onions.       5

 

The other course.

A Sturgon cooked in pepper.      6

Blue (a cooking method involving poaching an unscaled fish in an acidic

water, making the outer skin turn bluish) cooked sturgon. 7

A spinach with baked fish and warm fried fish/ layed around

the cabbage. 8

A pike cooked yellow (with saffron?) in the Hungarian style/ nicely filleted.        9

CAPTITADE of pikes  10

 

The third course.

A sturgon cooked in its own broth/ and parsely root/

and also grated horseradish tossed thereover.        11

Blue cooked trout.  12

A Hungarian cheese soup/ with a good sour cream/ and

with young cheese let simmer.    13

 

The fourth course.

A carp cooked in a black (blood) stock/ with limes/ nicely in the Hungarian

style  14

Karp and pike cooked cooled/ and in a silver served.       15

A pike pie warm.    16

A gellatine made of pikes yellow (with saffron)     17

A rice cooked in a milk.  18

 

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/

be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/

with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved

fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

 

End of the third banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/

for the early meal/ on a Fast day.

 

<<21a>>

 

The fourth banquet / of kings in

Hungary and Bohemia

 

The first course for the evening meal/ on a Fast day

A caper soup with black rasins. 1

A spinach soup.     2

Assorted salad in a silver/ covered with hard boiled eggs/

and larded (scatterd through) with fried (roasted) fish.  3

Fresh cooked eggs.  4

 

The other course.

A pike cooked nicely gray (Im assuming they mean not blue, meaning no vinegar

or acid in the cooking water)    5

A carp roe cooked with olive oil and onions. 6

Trout cooked yellow (with saffron)/ in the Hungarian style/ with limes

(lemons?)     7

A cabbage cooked/ and with assorted fried (roasted) fish/ small and large/

covered.      8

 

The third course.

Pike and carp cooked blue/ and all in a silver prepared.  9

A fried (roasted) pike nicely warm.    10

A cold pike pie.    11

A mash (porredge) in a silver.   12

 

The foruth course.

Cooked gobi. 13

A black pike with salted limes (lemons)       14

An almond cheese.   15

A white gelatine made of carp/ nicely sourish (acidic)     16

Of a large STIR cooked in KASSENADT/ and green parsely

tossed thereover.   17

A Hungarian torte.  18

A salmon cooked blue.      19

An artichoke cooked in a pea broth.    20

 

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/

be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/

with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved

fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

 

End of the fourth banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/

for the late meal/ on a Fast day.

 

 

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:02:55 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: SC - A Spanish Menu

 

I found a website which listed a day's menu for a 16th century Spanish

bishop. The address is http://www.jimena.com/cocina/

 

Here it is, in the original Spanish and a quick translation.

 

MUESTRARIO DE LA MESA DEL ARZOBISPO - 1568

 

Lunes, 9 de febrero de 1568.

Monday, February 9, 1568

 

COMIDA: comen Su seÒorÌa y 4 caballeros.

Dinner: eaten by His Lordship and 4 gentlemen

 

- - Pan vino y naranjas dulces

Bread, wine, and sweet oranges

 

- - 2 gallinas asadas.

2 roast hens

 

- - 6 perdices asadas.

6 roast partridges

 

- - Costrada de medio cabrito (5 huevos en yemas, manteca y especias).

Pastry of half a kid goat (5 egg yolks, fat, and spices)

 

- - JabalÌ asado.

Roast wild boar

 

- - Albondigas apedreadas de carnero con 8 huevos en yemas.

"stone" mutton meatballs with 8 egg yolks [the verb apedrear means to

throw or pelt with stones.  I would guess these meatballs are shaped

like stones]

 

- - Carnero cocido, 2 libras.

Boiled mutton, 2 pounds

 

- - Nabos en tocino.

Turnips in bacon

 

- - Puerco cocido, 2 libras.

Boiled pork, 2 pounds

 

- - Peros, 4 libras.

Apples, 4 pounds ["pero" is a specific variety of apple]

 

- - 2 cardos.

2 cardoons

 

- - Aceitunas y queso, 50 nueces.

olives and cheese, 50 walnuts

CENA: comieron Su seÒorÌa y 2 caballeros

Supper: eaten by His Lordship and 2 gentlemen

 

- - Entrada contada.

Uncommon entree

 

- - 3 perdices asadas.

3 roasted partridges

 

- - 1 conejo.

1 rabbit

 

- - 3 gazapos.

3 young rabbits

 

- - Cabezuelas de cabritos asadas.

Small heads of roast kid goats

 

- - Torta de queso.

Cheese pie

 

- - 6 huevos.

6 eggs

 

- - Postres contados.

Uncommon desserts

 

The thing I find the most interesting is the mention of sweet oranges.  

Until this, the earliest mention I'd seen for them in Spain was 1607.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

 

 

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:59:25 -0800

From: Rose <rose at santiagosmagic.com>

Subject: SC - Re: coronation menu (long)

 

"Entertaining Elizabeth I," by June Osborne, doesn't have the coronation menu.

There's a brief throw-away line about Elizabeth dining before going out to meet

the populace on her coronation day, and that's it.

 

It does, however, include a couple of expense sheets for other dinners:

 

Expenses of the Queen's Table, 1576

 

"The Queenes Majesty's dyett as she hath bene daylye servid.

 

Breakfast

 

Cheate and mancheate

Ale and beare

Wine

 

Flesh for pottage.

 

Mutton for the pott

Longe bones

Ise bones

Chines of beafe

Short bones

Chines of beafe

Connyes

Butter

 

Flesh for pottes.

 

Mutton for the pott

Long bones

Ise bones

Chines of beef

Chines of mutton

Short bones

Chines of veal

Chickens for grewell

Veale

Chines of beafe

Butter

 

"Sunday Supper the 19th of November, anno ut supra."

 

"The Queenes Majesty's booke"

1st Course

Cheate and mancheate

Bere and ale

Wine

Fleshe for the potte,

Mutton boyled

Mutton rost

Capon gr.

Herons

Connyes

Chickins bake

 

2nd Course.

Lambe or kydde

Cocks or godwitts

Partridges

Pejons or plovers

Larks

Tarte

Butter

Eggs

 

"The Queenes Majesty's daylie service."

1st Course

Cheate and mancheate

Bere and ale

Wine

Sallets

Mutton boylde

Chickins boylde

Larks boyde

Partirdges

Slised beafe

Mutton rost

Capon gr.

Chickins

Teales

Tonges

Udders

Cocks

Chickin pies

Doucetts

 

2nd Course

Feasants

Partridges

Snites

Plovers

Larks

Connyes

Bitters

Great birdes

Larks bake

Tarte

Butter

Eggs

 

"Mondaye Dynner the 20th of November, anno ut supra."

"The Queenes Majesty's booke."

Cheate and mancheate

Bere and ale

Wine

 

1st Course

Fleshe for the pott,

Beafe

Mutton

Veale

Signet

Capon gr.

Connyes

Friants

Custerde

Fritter

 

2nd Course

Lambe or kidde

Herons or feas

Cocks or goodwitts

Chickin

Pejons

Larks

Tarte

Fritter

Butter

Eggs

 

"The Queenes Majesty's daylie service."

Cheate and mancheate

Bere and ale

Wine

 

1st Course

Capon gr. boylde

Cocks boylde

Larks b.

Chickins b.

Mutton b.

Salt brewes

Beafe

Beafe

surloyne

Veale rost

Capon gr.

Cocks

Plover

Snites

Connye pies

Custerde

 

2nd Course

Pullets gr.

Teales

Partridges

Fesants

Chickins

Connys

Larks bake

Tarte

Butter

Eggs

Pannado.

Capon gr.

Previe Kichen

Cheate

Mancheate

-----------

Rose

 

 

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:59:56 -0600

From: Ted Eisenstein <Alban at delphi.com>

Subject: SC - Shopping lists (period)

 

I'm winding my way through a book on Richard III's Coronation. Near the

end it gives the menus for the coronation feast and for the vigils of the

Knights, errrr, knighted the day before. It also gives what seems to be the

shopping list for those feasts - or at least the ingredients list. (In essence,

both what went into the kitchen and what came out the other side. <grin>)

 

I'm wondering if such a thing might actually be of use for SCA purposes.

I know the menus would be - but how many of y'all might find shopping lists

also useful?

 

Alban

 

 

Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:04:09 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] King Henry IV's Coronation Feast ..

 

Don't know if anyone replied with a source for the menu.

It's part of the Harleian Manuscript 279 found in Austin,

Two Fifteenth Century Cookery-Books, beg. at page 57.

Or online at:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=longhead&;byte=3356093

 

Or in Cindy Renfrow's Take A Thousand Eggs Or More at page 584.

 

Hope this helps.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Johnna Holloway

 

Melody Mahanna wrote:

>    Rejoined the list today and I already have questions! *grins*   I am

> trying to find information on King Henry IV's coronation feast.

> SNIPPED .....

 

 

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:27:18 -0500

From: Alex Clark <alexbclark at pennswoods.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Source information for te make-up of

        removes?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

At 08:44 PM 2/21/2004 +1000, Marion wrote:

> What I actually need help here with is trying to explain to a friend (a

> member of a Viking/dark ages group that does very little food research) why

> the idea of separate "soup/appertiser"; "main" and "dessert" courses is a

> modern invention.

> I'm tying to explain that a standard medieval remove would consist of a

> variety of dishes meant to bolster the eaters "humours"

> Am I totally off the beam on this? Can anyone flip me a well worded

> explantion (including source) that I can pass one?

 

You are sort of right to the extent that meals weren't organized in the

same ways as in modern America. There is some documentation for menus,  

but I don't know if there is any for the dark ages and the viking era.

 

Some of the sources for feast menus usd or recommended in period are:

 

Hieatt, Constance and Sharon Butler. _Curye on Inglysch_. New York,  

1985.

 

_Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery Books_.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=HTML&;rgn=TEI.2&byte=3356093

 

Le Menagier de Paris. http:/www.pbm.com/~lindahl/menagier/

 

These are from the 14th and 15th centuries. Some of the general rules or

tendencies of these menus are:

   - A wide variety of foods can be served in one course, or in one platter

(/assiette/).

   - Some types of foods, uch as tarts, fritters, fried slices, cream of

almonds, fruits, and nuts, tend to appear mainly in later courses.

   - The English often listed a pottage (e. g. porridge or thick stew) at

the beginning of each course, and approximately dessert-like foods at the

end of the course.

 

The word dessert was in use, at least in French (/desserte/), but it didn't

quite mean what we mean by it -- according to le Menagier, foods served  

for dessert included frumenty and venison.

 

Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark

 

 

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:06:59 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] In need of English Ren feast menus

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Tatiana asked:

> I am seeking some actual feast menus that would have been served during the

> English Renaissance period. The feasts could be for anyone from minor

> nobility to high royalty. Does anyone have a source (preferably electronic)

> or menus you could forward to me?

 

Hmmm, here are some sources to take a look at:

 

http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/lifemann/manners/

feast.html

 

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/bookecok.htm

 

And a slightly earlier menu:

 

http://mysticwomen.mcmaster.ca/scriptorium/recipes.html

 

I don't know of an immediate source online, but Michael Best's edition of

Gervase Markham's "The English Housewife" has a long paragraph on the

"Ordering of banquets" (essentially a course of sweets) and several pages on

"Ordering of great feasts and proportion of expense."

 

And, IIRC, "Fabulous Feasts" has quite a bit of information on feasts and

menus which is much superior to the recipes.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:02:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Italian March menus

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

I forget who asked about March menus, but on an interesting historical  

note, I've been reading Sarah Bradford's biography of Lucrezia Borgia,  

and in it a note is made about a Lenten Friday feast Lucrezia, as  

Duchess of Ferrara, served to the French commanders who had come to the  

aid of Ferrara against Pope Julius II in 1513. The courses of the feast  

were noted by Bernardino di Prosperi in a letter to Isabella d'Este,  

marchioness of Mantua, who loved to keep tabs on whatever her  

sister-in-law was doing. Di Prosperi was apparently impressed that  

Lucrezia managed to get this feast together in a very short amount of  

time in Lent.

 

The feast started with an amphora of rosewater for washing hands. The  

table was set with milk bread, oat fritters and biscuits, marzipan, and  

cakes made of pine-nut flour. Muscatel and Trebbiano were among the  

wines. Salads contained chopped endive, young cabbage, lettuce,  

anchovies, capers, and caper flowers. Lots of fish: large prawns,  

sturgeon roe mixed with cinnamon, sugar, and rosewater, boiled dished  

of large pike, sturgeon, ray, tuna, and salted ray accompanied by  

juniper-flavored herb soup and herb sauce. There was also fried pike,  

large tench, sturgeon, large trout, and carp, accompanied by little  

freshwater fish, olives, oranges, and lemons. There was a course of  

small squid sliced, ravioli and zest of lemon, with a spicy sauce.  

Scallops, winkles, oysters, sea truffles. On the nonfish items there  

were herbed omelettes made with more than 100 eggs each, an arrowroot  

tart, Lombard tarts. The fruit course had pink apples, pears, cheese  

from Piacenza, peeled almonds, grapes, sultanas, and small plums, crisp, thin cakes, and punch made  

from brandy, cloves, and sugar. For sweets there were sugared almonds,  

angelica sweets, pears and peaches preserved in grappa, preserved pine  

nuts and aniseed.

 

Diners heard psalms sung at the beginning of the meal and were  

serenaded by lutes, viols, and cornets as they dined. Guests' departure  

and entrance were marked by woodwinds.

 

The information was found on pages 324-325 of this book, "Lucrezia  

Borgia," in the chapter "Lucrezia Triumphant."

 

There's a little more information in the book about how the kitchens  

were supplied at Ferrara, what they used, and what they grew and  

raised. Let me know if it's of interest to anyone, and I'll post it.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:36:23 -0500

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Italian March menus

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

I wasn't going to reply, since Italian isn't My Thing, but...

 

There's an Italian cookbook/carving manual on the Fons Grewe website,

which includes daily menus for the year 1546.

Domenico Romoli's "La singolare dottrina di M. Domenico Romoli"

http://www.bib.ub.es/rewe/showbook.pl?gw007

The year of menus begins on March 10, the first day of Lent, so the

dishes listed are heavy on fish.  To get to that part of the manuscript,

type "65" in the search window, and click "anar a" (do not hit "enter"

instead").  The firs few days of March (ie., pre-Lent) begin with image

248.  It's all in Italian, of course, but menus are more amenable to

translation-by-dictionary than other kinds of text.

--

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:53:14 +0200

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How meals are served in period

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Am Samstag, 23. Juli 2005 22:00 schrieb Maggie MacDonald:

> Recently I noticed a feast that was served apparently an item at a

> time, not in "courses/removes" and was done really really well.

> Is there a document somewhere that describes a _simple_ meal? (I tend

> to doubt that because why would anyone write about a meal that wasn't

> unusual in some sense?)

 

I have been doing some digging in period German literature lately, and there

are occasional mentions of 'simple' meals (as in everyday meals, not peasant

fare). The literary standard seems to be one meat or fish course with bread.

I'm pretty sure this reflects an idealised reality, but a noble host who

serves every one of his guests a half chicken for lunch (Mauricius von Craun,

a 13th century knightly epic with satirical overtones) or a householder who

cooks a trout for himself and his guest (Pfaff Amis, a collection of humorous

stories) are certainly more believable than regal feasts at every

corner.

 

Giano

 

 

Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:51:31 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How meals are served in period

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

On Jul 23, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Maggie MacDonald wrote:

> I've been curious about how meals are served in period. I"ve always

> been told that it was served in courses/removes, with each being a

> miniature meal in itself.

> Was this always done?

 

I doubt it. I think the multi-course, each-course-a-meal-in-itself

menus are for feast days, even in those places where this was

practiced. I believe there's enough documentation, both textual and

pictorial, for simpler meals, even for the wealthiest.

> Recently I noticed a feast that was served apparently an item at a

> time, not in "courses/removes" and was done really really well.

 

Have you seen Ermolao Barbaro's late 15th-century letter describing a

Milanese wedding feast, served in the style you describe above? I

believe Thomas Gloning has it on his website, translated into French

by Nostradamus in 1552. It gives some pretty fine detail on the

dishes served, but unfortunately, no recipes. Unfortunately, I don't

have a complete English translation. Anybody else?

 

> Is there a document somewhere that describes a _simple_ meal? (I

> tend to doubt that because why would anyone write about a meal that

> wasn't unusual in some sense?)

 

Well, even the English royal cookbooks like the Forme of Cury include

dishes described as being "for supper", and sources like le Menagier

also describe supper-type situations, as I recall. So clearly, they

did think these occasions worth writing about. They just didn't write

about them as much, probably because such occasions required less

planning, and were probably both less varied and more spur-of-the-

moment.

 

> I'm trying to plan a meal that the event steward has asked be

> themed in late period Italian, so that will play a part in it too.

> (I've been reading "The Stars Dispose" and "The Stars Compel" and

> getting lots of inspiration from their interpretations of Apicius).

 

Can you tell us a little more about these interpretations of Apicius?

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:16:13 -0800 (PST)

From: "Cat ." <tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

 

Im on digest, but had this forwarded to me (thanks

Johnnae)

 

If you have Rumpolt you have A TON of menus.  The

entire first section, pages 11 through 42, has menus.

 

I webbed a very rough on the fly translation of his

four banquets for kings at:

http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASkings1.htm

 

I used selections from that to base a feast on in

2000, that feast with recipes is also webbed.  Rumpolt

also hasamong several others: banquets for Emperors,

banquets for lords, even 'banquets for farmers' though

these last I belive should be taken with a large grain

of salt.

 

For most he has an early and a late meal on a meat day

and an early and a late meal on a fast day.

 

Please feel free to include a direct cc if you would

like more input from me (due to the digest delay.)

 

In Service

Gwen Cat

Outlands

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

 

I've been reading through Welserin and Rumpolt,  etc. and have found

great recipes, but I haven't come across anything with information on

menus. Are there any lists of dishes served at a late period German

meal, or what the general order of service was?  How did it vary from

England, France, Italy, etc?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for German SCA menus.

 

 

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:18:08 +0100

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2007 04:34 schrieb ranvaig at columbus.rr.com:

> I've been reading through Welserin and Rumpolt,  etc. and have found

> great recipes, but I haven't come across anything with information on

> menus.  Are there any lists of dishes served at a late period German

> meal, or what the general order of service was?  How did it vary from

> England, France, Italy, etc?

 

Rumpoldt has model menus suitable for feasts of all classes in the first

chapter (though one wonders about his experience with peasants). You can also

find some menus described in the diaries of Paolo Santonino, secretary to a

late 14th century Italian bishop, who describes a visitation to the

German-speaking Alps (modern Austria and the Alto Adige) and devotes much

time to discussing the food the visitors were served. Unfortunately, I only

have a German translation on hand (the original is in Latin).

 

Other than that I never much bothered because all the menus I found were far

too opulent to suit the budget, expectations and appetite of the average SCA

crowd.

 

Giano

 

 

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:31:18 +0100

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2007 16:31 schrieb Phil Troy / G. Tacitus

Adamantius:

> Sure it does. But do you think Rumpolt is talking about Piers the

> Plowman when he speaks of a feast menu for a farmer?

 

IMO probably not. Many of the woodcuts used in texts of the time are more

symbolic than realistic, so the 'bauer' shown is likely representative of

'the' peasant (German in period does not distinguish semantically between

free and bond, small or large farmer, the estate of agriculturalists

collectively being referred to as 'Bau(e)r/Pau(e)r/(Ge)bur'. There are more

specific legal terms, but these are hardly ever commonly used. So the

situation is different from English which has common use designators such as

yeoman, peasant and cotter.

 

If we look at the actual menus, they conspicuously exclude most exotic

specialties or high-class game, consisting os dishes such as boiled or roast

beef, roast goose, dried meat, roast piglet or pork, sausages, bacon,

chickens, red beets, sauerkraut, cheese, eggs, local fruit and baked goods

made with plenty of eggs and daiury products. To me, this sounds a realistic

note. Not that I would say this reflects average peasant fare, but it sounds

convincing as the kind of dishes and variety a seriously wealthy farmer or

well-off farming community could serve on a special occasion. By way of an

example the first farmers' banquet on a meat day, first meal of the day (off

the cuff, don't nail me down on deatils in this one):

 

Course 1

Beef soup with sops

 

Boiled beef, capon and dried meat, all in the same bowl, with  

'kran' (sour cream?) sauce

 

Course 2

Roast goose, ropast mutton leg with sage, roast pig, roast chickens,  

a veal roast, bratwurst, all in the same dish

Sere with it pickled red beets with 'kran' sauce

 

Course 3

Sauerkraut, boiled and served with bacon and ringed with bratwursts

 

Course 4

Boiled chickens in yellow sauce (or pickled, but he usually uses  

'eingemacht' to mean in a sauce)

 

Course 5

Pork galantine

 

Course 6

Apples and pears, nuts, cheese, all in the same dish

Cakes, wafers and other baked goods, also all in one dish.

 

I think this is not beyond the realm of the possible, though it is, of course,

massive extravagance by the lights of a farming community. But this is a

*feast* menu, so extravagance is the idea.

 

Giano

 

 

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:53:15 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] philosophical salad question

To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Helewyse's website has a number of menus posted from various

Italian sources.

http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/yulefeast.html

salads appear as dinner fare on Dec 15th

Lettuce and borage flower salad, Salad of cooked chicory, Macaroni

salad, Cooked carrot salad, Salad of capers currants and sugar, Salad of

feet of kid.

I know that we went with Giacomo Castelvetro and Platina for the actual

salad recipes.

 

Johnnae

 

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:

> I've been doing a lot of salads lately for events and things. Mostly,

> because I don't think enough people experience a medieval-type salad

> often enough, and I think it's good to show them what it's like. I

> haven't done a lot of sops or boiled greens on toast, though.

> Since it's unclear how often salads were served, should I try to limit

> how often I make salad in the SCA?

 

 

Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 00:47:29 -0400

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bohemian recipes

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Rumpolt's Ein New Kochbuch has menus for "vier Bancket der Konigen in Vngern vnd B?hem"

 

http://www.geocities.com/ranvaig/medieval/EinNewKochbuch.pdf (starting at pg 13)

Its transcribed but not translated yet.  This is 1581, very late period.

There might be other Bohemian recipes, but I'm not finding them just now.

 

Ranvaig

 

<<< Someone asked me about Bohemia in 2006 and we didn't really find

anything. The first published cookbooks are much much later.

 

Johnnae >>>

 

 

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:28:13 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Menus

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Speaking of menus, this volume has appeared:

Menus from History: Historic Meals and Recipes for Every Day of the Year

by Janet Clarkson.

 

   * *Hardcover:* 1008 pages

   * *Publisher:* Greenwood (July 14, 2009)

   * *Language:* English

   * *ISBN-10:* 0313349304

   * *ISBN-13:* 978-0313349300

 

Cost: $195.00

 

http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GR4930.aspx says:

 

" Description: /Menus from History: Historic Meals and Recipes for Every

Day of the Year/ offers a fascinating exploration of dining history

through historic menus from more than 35 countries. Ranging from

discussion of a Roman banquet in A.D. 70 to a meal for former South

African President Nelson Mandela in the 1990s, the menus offer students

and general readers a thoroughly delightful way to learn more about

events and the cultures in which they occurred. Royal feasts, soldier

grub, shipboard and spaceship meals, and state dinners are just some of

the occasions discussed.

Arranged chronologically, each entry covers a day of the year and

provides a menu from a significant meal that took place. An entry begins

with the name, location, and date of the event, plus a brief explanation

of its significance. Next comes the menu, followed by an analysis and,

where possible, several recipes from the menu.

*Title Features:*

 

   * Day-by-day essays with menus and recipes help students become a

   part of history

   * 50 period illustrations and halftones complement the text

   * A glossary of food terms and names of dishes will prove

   indispensable to readers and researchers

   * Numerous sidebars offer charming details about the meals presented

 

About the Author: *Janet Clarkson* is a culinary historian and columnist

in Australia. Her food blog is The Old Foodie.

 

And that blog is located at:

http://www.theoldfoodie.com/

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:46:09 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,

        SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Sca-cooks] A Feast in the Time of Chaucer

 

The March 2010 newsletter for the Barony of Cynnabar

has just published my latest article titled:

 

"A Feast During the Time of Chaucer"

 

It features an account of the little known 1368 wedding feast of  

Lionel, Duke of Clarence

to Violante, daughter of Galeazzo Visconti, Lord of Pavia and Milan.

We discussed this feast back in the fall of 2002 on the Sca Cooks  

list. I did research on it then and managed to find the menu. I  

returned to the subject in January and

completed this article then.

 

The article can be downloaded at:

http://chronicler.cynnabar.org/citadel/

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:12:54 -0700 (PDT)

From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] une graunt mangerye -- a 13th century menu

        (Hieatt)

 

In one of her articles, Constance B. Hieatt edits, comments on and translates a

menu preserved in the Treatise of Walter of Bibbesworth (13th century). It is a

wonderful article with many references to other menus of the time, a discussion

of certain dishes, differences between the English and the French style etc etc:

 

Constance B. Hieatt:

"Ore pur parler del array de une graunt mangerye": The Culture of the "Newe

Get,", Circa 1285.

In: Acts of Interpretation. The text in its contexts 700-1600. Essays on

Medieval and Renaissance Literature in honor of E. Talbot Donaldson. Edited by Mary J. Carruthers and Elizabeth D. Kirk.

Norman, Oklahoma: Pilgrim Books 1982, 220-233.

 

On p. 233, the last page, she gives a modern translation of the passage:

 

"A fashionable yeoman who came from a great banquet has told us about the

feast, how their service was ordered. Without bread and wine and ale, no

one at a feast will be at ease, but there was plenty of all three on the side (or, of choice varieties) he has told us. But it is worth knowing about the course which they had first: the head of a boar, larded, with the snout well garlanded, and enough for the whole household of venison fattened during the

closed season, served with frumenty. And then there was a great variety of

cranes, peacocks, and swans; kids, pigs, and hens. Then they had rabbits in

gravy all covered with sugar, Viaunde de Cypre and Mawmenny, red and

white wine in great plenty; and then quite a different multitude of roasts,

each of them set next to another: pheasants, woodcocks, and partridges;

fieldfares, larks, and roasted plovers; blackbirds and song,thrushes, and other

birds I cannot name; and fried meat, crisps, and fritters, with sugar mixed

with rosewater. And when the table was taken away, sweet spice powder

with the large dragee, maces, cubebs, cloves, and enough other spicery and

plenty of wafers. Now you have finished my discourse, for here in French

there are enough of many diverse matters, which you have completely

finished, gentlemen: I commend you all to the Son of God."

 

E.

 

 

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 18:41:47 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sources for English feast menus?

 

Do you just want SCA mentioned sources from the Florilegium or do you  

want academic sources?

 

If the latter, there are several more of course.  John Russell's  Boke  

of Nurture for instance.

 

A search under such words as medieval English feast menus

will reveal a number of others. Try Google Books or Scholar for more  

that can be searched at home without access to the academic databases  

like Article first or OBO.

 

Johnnae

Co-author of the OUP Oxford Bibliographies Online Authority and  

Innovation for Research Bibliography on Medieval Food and Drink.

 

On Mar 31, 2011, at 5:15 PM, Alexander Clark wrote:

<<< What sources do we know of for medieval English feast menus? What I

have been working with is the menus in Austin's _Two Fifteenth-Century

Cookery-Books_, Napier's transcription of the _Noble Boke off Cookry_,

Hieatt & Butler's _Curye on Inglysch_, MS Arundel 334 AKA "Ancient

Cookery", and the coronation of Richard III at

www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/p-Coronat-fst-art.rtf .

 

A wealth of information, to be sure, but is there anything I'm  

missing?

Henry/Alex >>>

 

 

Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 05:30:02 -0700

From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Neapolitan recipe collection

 

<<< Has anyone translated the menus in Scully's Neapolitan recipe collection?  I tried with an online translator and became very frustrated.  

Merraede >>>

 

These menues are in Buhler 19 (original source) and are very difficult because of the dialect.

They are actually written in Neoapolitan which is a strange combination of Castilian and Tuscan with some of its own stuff thrown in.

I am not sure any of the online translators would be helpful.

 

The menus are also transcribed in Arte Della Cucina.

 

Eduardo

 

 

Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:02:33 -0500 (EST)

From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Swan recipes

 

In fact it's worth noting that the whole idea of a fixed set of courses was

still very much in flux in this time. The Menagier de Paris includes over

20 menus and most follow no obvious shared sequence. It's mainly the

wedding menus  - the grandest - which follow something like the soup, etc. courses that became  the Western standard.

 

The history of courses (which I believe Flandrin has done to some degree)  

is interesting in itself. The Romans (at least at the highest levels) had a  

fairly (if loosely) organized sequence (which they shorthanded as "from

eggs to  apples"). There are still traces of this in the early Merovingian

period, along  with clear indications then and in Charlemagne's time that SOME

idea of services  existed. But exactly what we don't know, except that by the

time records become  more extensive the sequence seems to have become

anarchic.

 

Bear in mind  too that in France at the start of the fourteenth century, in

theory, at least,  meals were supposed to be limited to two courses.

 

Some credit Ziryab, a  fascinating figure in cultural history, with

inventing the sequence that became  standard in Western cuisine. He lived in Spain about 100 years after Charlemagne  (and is also credited with establishing

the bases for flamenco and for seasons  in fashion); if his ideas made it to

fourteenth century France, I would guess it  was via the East.

 

But we should be cautious about saying any food was  universally served in

any course at this time; there still seems to have been a  lot of room for

leeway.

 

Jim Chevallier

www.chezjim.com

 

 

Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 17:42:16 -0400 (EDT)

From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flandrin: the medieval order of meal

 

Maybe you can give your own summary of his look at medieval dining order?  

Mine was based on a quick read.

 

Probably the main thing for most medieval food recreationists to note is  

that the more formal order (soup, roast, etc) that ended up being the norm

for centuries was reserved (in the Menagier at least) for major events like  

weddings. Otherwise, the order seems to have been very fluid. Any trace of

the old Roman order (which can be faintly detected in early medieval

accounts) seems  to have disappeared.

 

Jim Chevallier

 

 

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:45:10 -0400 (EDT)

From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Orders of meals: Humbert II (14th c)

 

Following up on our Flandrin thread....

 

Menus for this period, beyond the Menagier and some very fancy ones added  

after the fact to the Viandier, are rare. So some might find it useful to

see what the Dauphin Humbert II had served in his household:

 

Recherches sur la l?gislation criminelle et la l?gislation de police, en  

...

By Jacques Berriat-Saint-Prix

"Description des repas de Humbert II" p57

http://books.google.com/books?ei=oK1uUoTfKYvwiQKkz4HYDQ&;dq=humbert+dauphin+l

ard&jtp=57&id=-4F23ceEM_0C#v=onepage&q=humbert%20dauphin%20lard&f=false

 

Roughly, most meals for himself and anyone noble were of a soup, an  

entremets and a roast, with cheese or fruit for dessert. There are variants -  

sometimes, for instance, pate' replaced the soup.

 

Interesting that one of the few dishes to be reserved for Humbert himself  

was... tripe "well purified and cooked in water". Yummy.

 

The servants (p 66) got basically one dish and a soup or vegetables,  

sometimes even less.

 

This data is no more definitive than that examined by Flandrin, but it does

slightly expand the examples available, and has the advantage of showing

daily fare as opposed to major feasts.

 

Jim Chevallier

 

 

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 02:42:32 -0400 (EDT)

From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] 1389 list from Duke of Burgundy's feast

 

It seems that nobody has published the  "comptes de Josset de Halles",

which are held in departmental archives, but  another work gives this extract

from 1389 for a meal from the Dukes of Burgundy:  

 

"hens in saffron, pheasants in gold power, braised guinea hens, preserved  

anise and garlic [!] served as comfits, ground barley, spinach in sugar,  

*rousset* [wheat-rye bread?], green wheat, wafers, pots of green ginger, apple

verjuice with clove, nutmeg?, hypocras, spice wine and Gascony claret,

served in  gold hanaps."

 

Itin?raire de Paris ? la m?diterran?e: itin?raire descriptif et historique  

Adolphe Joanne Hachette, 1867

 

_http://books.google.com/books?id=3vD_mpo_YHEC&;dq=malade%20repas%20%22moyen%

20age%22%20hopital&pg=PA200#v=onepage&q&f=false_

 

Jim Chevallier

_www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)

 

 

From: elise fleming <alyskatharine at gmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Wedding Feast of Henry VII

Date: July 2, 2014 at 12:05:29 AM CDT

To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,  SCA Subtleties E-List <SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com>

 

Greetings! The Old Foodie (http://www.theoldfoodie.com/) is an Australian

woman's blog about...food. Periodically she delves into things of interest

to a Scadian. The July 2 blog is entitled "The Nuptial Table of Henry VII"

(1486) and contains the menu for this feast. There are a few items of

interest to subtlety folk, including an initial "warner" for both courses.

The menu is from *Account of London* by Thomas Pennant, published in 1790.

 

If you have the time and inclination, you could check through recent months

for blogs about Tudor and Elizabethan foods.

 

Alys K.

--

Elise Fleming

alyskatharine at gmail.com

alysk at ix.netcom.com

http://damealys.medievalcookery.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8311418 at N08/sets/

 

 

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 01:34:28 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fwd: [MR] BBC: Richard III's Diet and

        Drinking

 

Richard and Anne's coronation banquet is detailed in

Sutton and Hammond. The Coronation of Richard III. The Extant Documents. 1984.

 

Worth a look if you are interested in royal banquets. The July issue of BBC History carries an article on Richard III. On page 55 a short section details the 1483 banquet receipts.

 

Johnnae

 

<the end>



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