p-menus-msg – 3/24/08
Examples of medieval feast menus. Sources for period menus.
NOTE: See also the files: feast-serving-msg, ME-feasts-msg, feasts-msg, feast-decor-msg, feast-menus-msg, feast-ideas-msg, Run-a-Feast-art.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval menus
Date: 20 Sep 1996 05:19:28 GMT
> I am looking for sources that contain menus of meals served before 1650.
> I would like to also have recipes for the dishes in the menus or at least
> some idea of what was in each item. A book discussing how the meals were
> put together would be great too! Thanks!
> --
> Dottie Elliott
_Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_, Thomas Austin ed., published by
Early English Text Society, has menus for a bunch of feasts--but they are
humongous big royal feasts. It also has lots of recipes. Of course, they
are 15th century recipes, written in 15th century English and generally
omitting inessential details such as quantities, times and temperatures.
_The Goodman of Paris_ (Le Menagier de Paris) is a late 14th century book
that has quite a lot of menus for much more modest meals--more on the
order of a wedding feast for minor noble or wealthy bourgeois--along with
lots of recipes.
For lots of worked out period recipes, you might want to look at:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/miscellany.html
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
David/Cariadoc
--
ddfr at best.com
From: "Joseph M. Carlin" <foodbks at shore.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval menus
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:22:13 -0400
Organization: Food Heritage Press
> I am looking for sources that contain menus of meals served before 1650.
> I would like to also have recipes for the dishes in the menus or at least
> some idea of what was in each item. A book discussing how the meals were
> put together would be great too! Thanks!
> --
> Dottie Elliott
Check out the medieval page at Http://www.shore.net/~foodbks
Joe Carlin
foodbks at shore.net
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:17:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #71
>Are you suggesting that meals were either all meat or all fish? I don't
>think the extant menus support that.
>
>Adamantius
Here we go---what's needed is some documentation. Robert May planned a
Christmas Day Menu (The Accomplisht Cook). My Source: Old Cook Books, An
Illuminated History, Eric Quayle 1978.
Here it is:
Oysters
A Collar of Brawn
Stewed Broth of Mutton marrow bones
A grand Sallet
A Pottage of Caponets
A Breast of Veal in Stoffado
A Boil'd Partridge
A chine of Beef, or surloin roast
Minced pies
A jegote of mutton with anchovie sauce
A made dish of sweet-bread
A swan roast
A pasty of venison
A kid with a pudding in his belly
A steak pie
A haunch of Venison roasted
A turkey roast and stuck with cloves
A made dish of chickens in puff paste
Two bran geese roasted, one larded
Two large capons, one larded
A Custard
The Second Course for the Same Mess
Oranges and Lemons
A young lamb or kid
Two couple of rabbits, two larded
A pig souc'd with tongues
Three ducks, one larded
Three pheasants, one larded
A Swan Pye
Three brace of Partridge, three larded
Made dish in Puff Paste
Bolonia sausages, and anchovies, and pickled oysters in a dish, with
mushrooms and Caviare
Six teals, three larded
A Gammon of Westphalia Bacon
Ten ploves, five larded
Aquince pye or warden pye
Six woodcocks, three larded
A Standing tarte in puff paste, preserved fruits, pippins,&c.
A dish of larks
Six dried neat's tongues
Sturgeon
Powdered Geese (yes, that's what it says)
Jellies.
Aoife
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:31:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Menu, Meat with Fish
In a message dated 97-04-23 14:23:26 EDT, you write:
<< But I don't see
> a single menu here that supports the notion that fish was generally
> eaten on meat days; >>
Taken from "Le Menagier de Paris (circa 1395 c.e.); Translated by Janet
Hinson". Emphasis is my own:
IV. Another MEAT dinner
First Dish: Rich Pasties; a stew of meat, beef marrow fritters, SMOKED EELS,
LOACH IN WATER and cold sage soup, coarse meat and SALTWATER FISH
Second Dish: The best roast you can make and FRESHWATER FISH, a bacon gruel,
a slab of meat, capon pies and thin pancakes, BREAM PIES, EEL PIES, and
fricasse.
Third Dish: Frumenty, venison, LAMPREY IN HOT SAUCE, fried bread slices,
BREAM ROASTED and meat,tarts, STURGEON and jelly.
..........................................................
Here is another menu from the same source that also combines meat and fish:
VI. Another MEAT Dinner
First Dish. Fresh beans, a cinnamon broth, a stew of black hare, A GREEN SOUP
OF EELS, SMOKED HERRING, coarse meat. turnips, TENCH SOUPS, SALTED SCIAENAS
AND OLIVES, beef marrow rissoles and skewers of beef ut pa.
Second dish. Roast the best that you can, SWEETWATER FISH, SALTWATER FISH,
PLAICE IN WATER, forcemeat in hot sauce like lampreys, A SHAD SOUP G. I. G.,
peach flower, portioned fricasse, Lombardy tarts, pies of venison and smalll
birds, sweet chestnuts, FRESH HERRING.
Third dish. Frumenty, venison, browned (vegetables), FISH JELLIES, fat
capons a la dodine, ROAST OF FISH, fried bread slices and meat tarts,
JELLIED EELS, CRAYFISH, thin pancakes and little sausages.
Lord Ras
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:22:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts
>> From: Steve Muhlberger
>> To: Middlebridge
>> Subject: [Mid] Feasts
>>
>> I have a preference in feasts.
>>
>> I like feasts to be a reasonable length.
>>
>> In the Middle Ages, from what I can tell, the big fancy feasts were
>> standalone events. You had a feast and it was the one event that day.
(forwarded from Middlebridge to SCA Cooks)
Much as I hate to take issue with the noble and learned Finnvairr ... .
Chiquart makes it clear that he intends to serve two meals each day. The
big 16th c. German cookbook I have (admittedly, a little late for medieval)
gives lots of menus, each in the form of an early meal and a night meal, I
assume lunch and dinner.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:42:31 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - menu, 1571-longish
> But what did they consider "proper" meal planning in the middle ages?
> How did they decide whether to put the fish before or after the
> chicken? Did they always have a vegetable in each course and bread at
> each meal; or are these modern-day affectations we've incorporated
> into SCA feasts?
>
> Anyone have any insight on Medieval Menu Planning?
>
> - kat
This is a menu dating to 1571, preserved in the archives of the northern
dept of france, ref larousse gastronomie
bill of fare for the nuptual dinner of master baulde cuvillon
first course
salads of various kinds
flesh of prinsels with parsley and vinegar[savoury preserves]
mutton broth
fricasse of gosling
spring chickens with spinach
cold saille
pigeons a la tremoulette
roast joints of mutton
roast brest of veal
small pastries with hot sauce
roast roebuck
dainty pate
spring chickens in aspic
sweetened mustard
second course
venison broth
roast capon
orange salad
roast pheasants
roast rabbits
roast spring chickens, some stuffed some larded
cheriots
roast quail
roast crousets
smoked tongue
boulogne sausages
pheasant pates
pate of meaux hams
crousets pates
turkey or peacock pate
venison pate
leg of lamb daube
capon in aspic
roast swan
sweetened mustard
olives
dessert
mousse tart
apple tart
chervil tart
jam tart
cream flan
gohier
waffles
pate of pears
clove apple
pears in mead
sartelles pears
angelots
morbecque
gren walnuts
fresh fruit
ample jelly
cheese
this is observeably heavy in fats, proteins and stuff guaranteed to make
your capillaries scream for mercy.
margali
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 12:02:11 -0500
From: Dottie Elliott <macdj at onr.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts
In my looking at menus from the times (mostly coronation and ordination
menus so far), they have had usually 3 courses with various entrements in
between and as many as 30 - 40 dishes served. However, one needs to keep
in mind that no one ate from all the dishes. There were different dishes
for different levels of society. I don't think I have yet found any
menus with more than 3 courses.
Clarissa
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:15:41 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period feast menus
At 11:04 AM +0000 11/14/97, Mark Harris wrote:
>I have a little bit on period feast menus in my file p-menus-msg. I would
>love to have more actual menus or referances for this file. Does anyone
>have good recommendation for where people should go look for period menu
>examples. (hmmm. And I mean the book names, not "the library". shesh.)
Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books has very high class menus. _Le
Menagier_ has much less pretentious ones.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:27:15 -0500
From: "Gedney, Jeff" <gedje01 at mail.cai.com>
Subject: RE: SC - meat days and fast days - MIXED?
Allison opined:
> Since there seems to be a negative reaction among a number of cooks in
> regard to accomodating vegetarians, can we just forget that word? We
> have menus from period that list fast day type of food for church
> members. 'Ecclesiastical' is a bit much to type constantly, and 'fast
> food', while punny to most of us, may confuse newcomers. What term might
> people like? Church food? Priest dish? Perhaps this would make this
> preparation more 'palatable' to us, the Kitchen Stewards.
Unfortunately, fast day food is not always possible as a vegetarian
alternative either. Much fast day food is really just the same meals with
fish instead of meat, and almond milk instead of dairy. Some Vegetarians do
not eat fish (to say nothing of the period use of porpoise and whale meat on
"fish days"!!).
Personally, I think that a few vegetarians trying to set the agenda for the
rest of us is a bit arrogant, regardless of the purity of their motivations.
If a vegetarian does not want to eat meat at a feast, they can always bring
a bag of carrots, and munch "off board".
It is just that, predominately, in period, there was a preponderance of
meats in the feast menus, and the assumption is therefore made that on
non-feast times, people ate very little meat. (if they ate like that at
every meal, then they would have died of heart failure very early!!).
Unfortunately, for Vegetarians, we are recreating feast menus, not everyday
food. Anyway, feast food seems to be what survived in books which we can use
as sources.
See what I mean, in this menu from a 14th century manuscript at the Beineke
Library at Yale:
(idiomatic language translated to modern English)
For the knights table, the first course: Venison with frumente, Viand Bruce,
Boars Head, Swan Roasted, Pike in sauce, Custard Lumbard, and a soteltie,
The second Course: a pottage called gelly, and pottage blanc de sore, Roast
pig, Roast Kid, Chickens Endored, Bream in sauce, tartes, Brawn bruse,
Roasted Coneys, and a soteltie. The third course: Bruet of almayne, Stewed
Lumbard, Roast venison, roast peacocks, roast partridge, pidgeons, rabbits,
Roast larks, Payne Puffe, Boiled partridge, a dish of jelly, Long Frittore.
- --- 10 meats, 7 birds, 3 fish by my count and none without some kind of
meat or fish product used in the preparation.
(Not to mention the kings table which has even more meat dishes in it.)
The point of this is that there would be little place at our table for
vegetarians if we were truly "in period". I think that vegetarians should
just accept the fact that what we are recreating was not the Vegetarian
Middle Ages, but the European Middle Ages, Where if it was alive, and did
not talk back to you, you could eat it, and often did!!!
References:
An Ordinance of Pottage By Constance Heiatt
Pleyn Delite By Constance Heiatt
All Manners of Food By Stephen Mennell
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:02:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Period Coronation Feast Menus
At 10:15 PM -0800 2/15/99, Elisabeth Borden wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone knew of any urls for period coronation
>feast menus. I've tried a ton of combinations of words on various
>search engines, but I can't seem to come up with any.
I don't know any on-line sources, but if you have access to _Two Fifteenth
Century Cookery Books_, ed. Thomas Austin, Early English Text Society, he
lists a fair number of menus of English feasts, including at least one
coronation as well as the installation of a bishop, etc. Many university
libraries have the Early English Text Society series.
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:41:05 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: SC - funeral feast - period menu - ON topic
Here is a period menu for the Funeral Feast of
Nicholas Bubwith, Bishop of Bath and Wells, December 4th, 1424. This menu
includes a separate fish feast for the clergy.
Harleian MS. 279.
Le .j. cours.
Nomblys de Roo.
Blamangere.
Braun, cum Mustard.
Chynes de porke.
Capoun Roste de haut grece.
Swan Roste.
Heroun Rostyd.
Aloes de Roo.
Puddyng de Swan necke.
Vn Lechemete.
Vn bake, videlicet Crustade.
Le .ij. cours.
Ro Styuyd.
Mammenye.
Connyng Rostyd.
Curlew.
Fesaunt Rostyd.
Wodecokke Roste.
Pertryche Roste.
Plouer Roste.
Snytys Roste.
Grete byrdes Rosted.
Larkys Rostyd.
Vennysoun de Ro Rostyd.
Yrchouns.
Vn leche.
Payn puffe.
Colde bakemete.
Conuiuium de piscibus pro viris Religiosis ad funeralia predicta.
Le .j. cours.
Elys in sorry.
Blamanger.
Bakoun heryng.
Mulwyl taylys.
Lenge taylys.
Jollys of Samoun.
Merlyng so[th]e.
Pyke.
Grete Plays.