Drinking of water in period as a beverage.
NOTE: See also the files: beverages-NA-msg, beverages-msg, jalabs-msg, tea-msg, wine-msg, mead-msg, cider-msg, coffee-msg, beer-msg, cordials-msg, infusions-msg, fountains-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 16:20:06 -0800
From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <crystal at pdr-is.com>
Subject: SC - water/was coffe and tea at events
Ron Martino Jr (Yumitori)wrote:
snip
> > As far as period substitutions for coffee and tea, I agree that we should try
> > to introduce our people to the delights of period beverages, but to offer
> > water as a substitute is cold and horrenduous to think upon.
> > Mordonna DuBois
>
> Water? Horrendous?
Well, yes. For the class of people we are trying to emulate, plain water
was something you drank in desperation or penace.
I spent some time trying to document plain water as a beverage,
something that would have been served at table. The most they thought
about water was as something to dilute wine with. Adding water to wine
was a common practice dating from Roman times, and was described in many
medieval books on manners and in Baccaccio's The Decameron, "And when
they descended to inspect the huge, sunlit courtyard, the cellars
stocked with excellent wines, and the well containing abundant supplies
of fresh, ice-cold water, they praised [their lodgings] even more."
An Italian food and health manual from the 14th century recommends water
in the following fashion: "Warm Water (Aqua Calida) Nature: Cold and
humid in the second degree. Optimum: Lukewarm and sweet. Usefulness: It
cleans the stomach lining. Dangers: It weakens the mechanism of
digestion. Neutralization of the dangers: By mixing it with rose water."
Although the text describes the water being taken internally, the
accompanying picture shows a woman having her feet bathed.
I'm sure the poor drank both spring and rain water, but it wasn't a
habit people who could afford better(different) seemed to pick up.
Besides, I don't know where you live, but here in the west, we
frequently camp in places where the water is undrinkable. If I'm gonna
haul all my beverages in, the only water is usually for gatorade for
fighters.
Crystal of the Westermark
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:26:29 -0600
From: mfgunter at fnc.fujitsu.com (Michael F. Gunter)
Subject: SC - Water to wine
> I'm not arguing that watered wine was drunk in our time period, but I
> am curious as to how your quote backs up your statement. I read it as
> "they decended to inspect the courtyard, the cellars, and the well."
> Is there more to the quote that's not here? I'm sorry, I just have a
> hard time believing that water was not drunk by the nobility at all,
> perhaps that misconception is the cause of my confusion?
> Conchobar
There's a statement in a chronicle during the 100 Years War that the English
army was besieged in (Calais?) and supplies were running so low that the
nobility was complaining they were forced to drink plain water.
They drank water but they didn't like it.
Gunthar
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:57:00 EST
From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly_nick at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Water to wine
Diseases and standing water make common bedfellows, even in modern
times. The avoidance of plain water is arguable (not strongly) from
this standpoint. No know pathogens can survive in beer even at weak 3%.
Watered wine would approximate this alcohol content at about three parts
water and 1 part wine. No point here, just thinking out lound to the
group.
niccolo
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:15:59 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Drinking Water
>As for drinking plain water, yes it was not common. But there is
>some evidence that it was drunk, although probably not when they
>could get something else.
For a study of water in history see Water in England by Dorothy Hartley.
Mel
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:52:03 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: SC - Beer
Source: Luis Lobera de Avila, _Banquete de Nobles Caballeros_
(Spanish, 1530)
Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)
Chapter XII
Of beer and of its properties and of its benefits and dangers
<snip of description of beer>
And because in Spain there are many good
wines and good water and there is little need of beer and it is not
customary, I will not enlarge on this material.
It remains to speak of water, because many gentlemen and lords drink
it, so I will speak of its selection and benefits.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:47:19 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Beer
And it came to pass on 29 Jan 00,, that Stefan li Rous wrote:
[quoting my translation from Lobera de Avila]
> > It remains to speak of water, because many gentlemen and lords drink it,
> > so I will speak of its selection and benefits.
>
> And this is also VERY interesting. I believe we have discussed here
> whether plain water was drunk in our period. This is perhaps the clearest
> evidence that I have seen that it was indeed done and not because that was
> all they had.
>
> Brighid, does he go on to talk about selecting water to drink and it's
> benefits?
He does -- and its dangers, too. Chapter XIII is all about water.
>If so, I would love to have a translation of that section.
When I have a chance, but I suspect that you will find it disappointing.
Remember, this is a health manual, and it reflects what the medical
profession said that people *should* eat and drink, not necessarily what
they *did* eat and drink. He goes into details about cooking water with
various herbs and foodstuffs for medicinal purposes (such as barley to
counteract heat, or licorice for urinary difficulties). Moderate
consumption of cold water is recommended for people of a choleric
temperament who have no medical reasons to avoid it. And he quotes
several ancient authorities on the potential dangers of water, and how it
may disturb the digestive process.
On the other hand, the section on wine (Chapter XI) states that wine is
the most common beverage, and therefore he will begin by discussing
it. Wine -- good wine, taken moderately -- comforts the stomach, aids
digestion, cheers the heart, prevents decay of the humours, and
engenders good spirits.
Brighid
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 14:36:40 EST
From: Aelfwyn at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Feast Beverages
I usually serve sekanjabin and plain water. If you slice some oranges and
lemons into the pitchers of water it will give a little flavor, look nice and
still be inexpensive and refreshing. Since my mints will also be available by
the next feast (April 1) I will probably add a few springs to the water
pitchers as well.
Aelfwyn
Malagentia
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:25:40 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Is drinking water "period"
A while back, I mentioned a chapter on water in a 16th century health
manual. I've been taking a break from trying to translate it, since the
language is very... medical and hard to render into English. I'll try to get
back to it soon.
In brief, however, Dr. Luis Lobera de Avila (court physician to Carlos V)
recommends water for the treatment of various illnesses. Sometimes it
is administered cold, sometimes boiled with herbs. I cannot tell from
this if people of the time voluntarily drank water as a beverage. Medical
and nutritional texts generally reflect what people *should* be doing, but
not necessarily what they *are* doing.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:07:03 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: SC - Is drinking water "period"
On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
> is administered cold, sometimes boiled with herbs. I cannot tell from
> this if people of the time voluntarily drank water as a beverage. Medical
> and nutritional texts generally reflect what people *should* be doing, but
> not necessarily what they *are* doing.
In Ann Hagens "Anglo-Saxon Food; Processing and Consumption" she
writes "Otherwise wine (for the senior members of society), ale, mead,
cider/fruit wines, or water were drunk." (p 74).
/UlfR
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:45:14 -0700
From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - Is drinking water "period"
Imagine your descendants 500 years from now, reading the surviving
cookbooks from the late 20th century. Most of them are from Sunset, Bon
Appetit, or Gourmet magazines. None of them make regular mentions of
drinking water with meals; in fact, they rarely mention drinking water at
all, except in the context of declining water quality. Nearly all menus
describe the appropriate wine; some discuss beer. Special non-alcoholic
drinks are provided for children, but in general, we conclude that the late
20th century household habitually drank wine and beer with their meals and
rarely, if ever, drank water.
Archaeological evidence, however, indicates that vast sums were spent on
water delivery and purification systems. It is difficult to know what the
purpose of these systems would be if people were not drinking the water.
In this context, note the surviving 12th century map of the water supply
system for Canterbury Cathedral; very elaborate and sophisticated. Many
medieval cities had extremely complex water supply systems, built to bring
good-quality water from distant springs or streams. Surely not all of this
water was used to irrigate kitchen gardens and slop the sewers!
Just a reminder of the bias inherent in our sources of information...
Colin
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:36:42 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Is drinking water "period"
Your goblet of water is probably not period, but I wouldn't want to bet on
it. The Romans certainly used water and at least one archeologist has made
the case for lead poisoning weakening the Roman population due to the lead
pipes they used. It was common practice to dilute wines with water and I
believe the practice continued into medieval times.
The Roman Legions commonly drank vinegar with water. I learned about the
practice from a couple Spec Ops people who experimented with it in the
field. They referred to it as the original electrolyte.
The idea that people didn't drink water because they knew it would make them
sick is just too simple. Water born disease tends to strike large
populations living in small areas with inefficient removal of human and
animal waste, urban areas and military encampments being at the top of the
list. Ground and surface water are naturally filtered to a certain extent
and if the well is properly positioned in relation to the privies,
contaminents flow away from the well. (Surface water flows toward lakes and
streams, ground water flows away from lakes and streams.)
Being unaware of microorganisms, does not rule out having the empiric
knowledge to reduce their effects. Roman engineers tried to limit their
cities to 25,000 occupants because they could engineer sufficient water
supplies and waste removal for that number.
Another consideration is that cisterns were used to collect rain water to
provide pure water for castles and towns. If you weren't drinking it, you
really didn't need a cistern in most of Europe.
Considering that many people today prefer to drink coffee, tea, and soda
rather than water, I see no reason why a person in period would not have
drunk wine, beer or small beer for the same reasons and benefitted from the
additional nutritional value (a glass of beer roughly equates to the
nutritional value of a glass of milk). From my manual labor days, I can
suggest that another reason people drank beer and wine is for the analgesic
effects. Alcohol helps the body to relax and helps kill the pain of aching
muscles, serious considerations when you don't have Aleve in the medicine
cabinet.
As for feasts, they were often about revelry and conspicuous consumption.
Good vintages are more worthy of note than water.
Bear
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:25:23 -0700
From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net>
Subject: SC - Drinking Water
I have observed the discussion about whether people in the middle ages drank
water, but I haven't followed it very closely, as the absurdity of
suggesting otherwise is obvious to anyone who has actually read much in the
documents of the time. However, I had the discussion in mind when I was
re-reading a favourite book, entitited FRIAR FELIX AT LARGE by H.F.M.
Prescott, which is an description of the pilgrimages to Jesusalem in 1480
and 1483 by a German-Swiss friar. This is based on Friar Felix's own lengthy
account of his travels.
It is obvious from what Friar Felix has to say that water is the usual drink
of the ordinary people who made up the mass of pilgrims, though the noble
and rich may have drunk mostly wine (thinned with water, however -- the
pilgrim manuals warn west Europeans not to drink the strong wines of Cyprus
straight: "drunk neat it will burn up the entrails, therefore dilute it with
anything up to four quarts of water." [p. 45]). The pilgrim's bottle (which
he carried along with his scrip) normally contained water for drinking.
Wine, particularly in Palestine which was under Saracen control at that
time, was carried separately, usually well-hidden in the bottom of bags or
boxes, to avoid the disapproval of the Muslims, who were likely to pour it
on the ground if they saw it.
Friar Felix frequently comments on the flavour of various streams and wells
they stopped at on their way. Some of them he spoke of highly. The water of
the Jordan River, however, had little to recommend it except the religious
connections: "It was not very pleasant to drink, being warm, and as muddy as
a swamp." [p. 157]
The importance of water for drinking may be seen in what happened, on the
voyage to the Holy Land, when contrary winds kept the ship out of port.
"Water ran short; the sailors now could sell any that was not foul, 'albeit
it was lukewarm, whitish, and discoloured,' at a higher price than wine.
Soon 'even putrid stinking water was precious and the captain and all the
pilots were scared that we should run out even of . . . that.' No water at
all could be spared for the beasts; and Felix watched them with pity as they
licked the dew from the ship's timbers." [p. 58-59]
If we want to know the proportions used by the relatively well-off pilgrim,
we might look at the instructions in manuals for pilgrims proivisioning
themselves at Venice before the voyage: they should buy three barrels, two
for wine and one for water. "The best water for keeping is to drawn at St.
Nicholas, and when that is used fill the barrel again at any port of call."
[p. 45] (Keep this in mind -- it suggest that the wine was supposed to last
the entire voyage, while the water would be replenished repeatedly.)
Incidentally, water was the requisite drink during fasts, particularly the
more solemn ones such as Good Friday, when bread and water were enjoined (if
you were well enough off, though, no great hardship ensued -- the Duc de
Berri devotedly stuck to bread and water on fast days, but it was
gingerbread and spiced water!)
Yours aquatically,
Francesco Sirene
David Dendy / ddendy at silk.net
partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene at silk.net
Visit our Website at http://www.silk.net/sirene/
Subject: ANST - Period Travel Guides
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:40:42 -0400
From: fitzmorgan at cs.com
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
> I assume that people wrote "travel guides" during the Middle Ages and
> Renaissance. Have any survived? Where can they be found? What do they
> cover?
>
> Jovian
Look for "The Pilgrims Guide To Santiago De Compostela" Written in , I
think, the 12th Century. and translated by William Melczer. Italica Press,
INC. ISBN 0-934977-25-9 for $17.50 if it's still in print. This is a travel
guide for pilgrims telling of dangers to avoid and sites to see on your
pilgrimage.
It tells which rivers you can safely drink from and which are unsafe.
It says some rude things about the Basque. And tells short stories about the
many Saints who's shrines you will see on the way. It's well worth reading.
Robert Fitzmorgan
Barony of Northkeep
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:50:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] more on drinking water in the Middle Ages
On Thu, 24 May 2001, Mark.S Harris wrote:
> Margaret said:
> > For that matter, I have at least one reference to people in poverty (or
> > austerity, which is not the same thing) drinking water instead of ale. I
> > can check when I get home for the exact citation, if anyone is interested.
>
> Please do. I'd love to have more useful info, preferable with
> referances.
> Stefan li Rous
The water citation(s), from Dyer again:
p93, discussing poverty "Stories of shocking poverty were told,..., of
nuns reduced to drinking water because their house could not afford
ale,..."
p153, discussign peasant circumstances "Better-off peasants recieved malt,
showing that they were expected to drink ale regularly."
and
p154 "Beatrice atte Lane, who was surrendering 24 acres, was promised 1
1/2 quarters of maslin, and 1 1/2 quarters of drage, sufficient for an
ample diet of bread and ale, while a smallholder with 4 1/2 acres, Sara
Bateman, received a quarter of maslin and 4 bushels of barley, the
ingredients of a menu of bread and pottage, accompanied mostly by water."
Citations are from
Dyer, Christopher. Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social
Change in England c. 1200-1520. Cambridge University Press, 1989.
Fascinating book if you, like me, think that sort of info is neat.
Margaret FitzWilliam
From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another contempory account of drinking water
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:33:49 -0500
On a related note, I remember a passage from a book
about the English excursions into France where the
army was under-rationed. One of the main grumbles was
the fact that the knights had to drink water instead
of wine which was proper for them.
Gunthar
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:24:38 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Beverages, was Royal authenticity
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On 27 Sep 2003, at 20:11, Nancy Kiel wrote:
> Unfortunately, there isn't anything non-alcoholic. Water isn't safe to
> drink, unless it's from a stream (non-well water) or processed in some
> way (boiled).
Cold water was served at noble tables, at least in 16th c. Spain. At my last feast, I served water, and had fun including documentation for it in my feast
booklet. I cited a period health manual, the "Banquete de Nobles Caballeros" by Luis Lobera de Avila. The author was a court physician to Carlos V. At the end of his chapter on beer (a new-fangled beverage in Spain) he says, "And because in Spain there are many good wines and good water and there is little need of beer and it is not customary, I will not enlarge on this material.... It remains to speak of water, because many gentlemen and lords drink it, so I will speak of its selection and benefits."
The chapter on water which follows goes into great detail about different sources of water, and what Galen other authorities have to say about it. Lobera de Avila concludes that water in moderation) is a particularly suitable beverage for ladies, young men under the age of twenty-four, and persons of a choleric (hot) temperament.
Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:05:53 +0200
From: UlfR <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Beverages, was Royal authenticity
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
jenne at fiedlerfamily.net <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net> [2003.09.29] wrote:
> Period sources considered running water safer than standing water. If the
> water table was contaminated (by nearby garderobes), well water would of
> course include the contaminants... but without extensive research I can't
> tell you if it would be MORE contaminated than running water or not.
I've seen -- in a museum -- a viking age well[1]. Imagine a conical
hole, with siding made from split oak logs (well was 240 cm deep, top
diameter 350 cm, bottom diameter 80 cm). Now imagine cattle, goats,
chickens, horses, dogs and cats running around in the same area as the
well. Give me the stream any day...
UlfR
[1] From Vorbasse, Denmark. Dendrochronology gives the build date to
734. Else Roesdahl, "Från Vikingar till Korsfarare", 1992, ISBN
91-85276-63-4, p248.
--
UlfR Ketilson ulfr at hunter-gatherer.org
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:41:21 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Water in England
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>>>
Does anyone have any documentation on selection of drinking water?
Cadoc
<<<
I'd suggest starting with Water in England
By Dorothy Hartley. It's should be available in
libraries around the country for ILLoan.
Johnnae
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:34:03 -0500
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Water Purity was: Mustards
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Stefan, how could they have generally known about health
> hazards of water in the Renaissance? In Holland, about
> 1595 the microscope was invented by Zacharias Jansenn
> (his business was grinding lenses for eyeglasses). Later,
> Anton van Leeuwenhoek began to make microscopes as a hobby.
Mankind has always had a reasonably good tool to tell if water is
basically unhealthy, the nose...
Seriously. It was well known that the effluvia of the open sewers was
unheathy. mostly because it stinks. And we have a very sensible and
evolutionarily derived aversion response to the odors of biological
effluvia.
And anyone who put up water in a keg, (sailors did this all the time)
knew that streams that ran fresh from the spring lasted longer before
going all scummy and maloderous, than did water in rivers that served
cities. There are a number of references where the captain was
searching for good "sweet" water for putting up in kegs, and
specifically not taking river water that was considered fouled.
They could see and smell that the water went foul (or was already foul)
without having to know about the sundrie bacteria and algaes that made
it that way.
They also knew that beer lasted longer than water in the keg.
They did not have to know that boiling the water in beermaking killed
the organisms therein to know this.
Empiricism did not purely start up in the 1700's with Leewanhoek and
LaVoisier.
The senses, physical and common, were enough to make the necessary
observations.
Capt Elias
-Renaissance Geek of the Seven Seas
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:57:25 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] drinking water in the Middle Ages
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Am Dienstag, 28. März 2006 07:23 schrieb Stefan li Rous:
> Volker mentioned:
> ====
> Pfaff Amis tells a funny story about an itinerant priest
> tricking a farmer into believing in his supernatural powers by having
> delicious fish 'appear' in the freshwater spring near his farm, and the
> dialogue again reveals that the farmer both relishes high quality
> fish and is
> glad of the spring because it provides 'good' drinking water (though
> he can also provide ale if that is preferred).
> =====
>
> Can you give us more details of this? Who was "Pfaff Amis"?
It's a story. To be precise, a collection of humorous fables about the
itinerant priest ("Pfaff(e)") Amis, written by an author known only by his
pen name Der Stricker ("the ropemaker") in the early 13th century. The part
in question is lines 1104-1107
"Saht ir minen brunnen niht?
Der ist kalt und klar
und ist der beste durch das jar
und vluzet harte schone"
(Did you not see my well/spring?
It is cold and clear
Best quality throughout the year
And flows in great quantity)
and the story hinges on the Pfaff Amis putting fish into the spring so that
the owner can hospitably entertain him with a meal as well as a drink of
water - and believe in his supernatural powers.
Giano
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:04:25 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] drinking water in the Middle Ages
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I seem to recall there being a rather lengthy discussion of the quality of
drinking water from various French sources in the Heptameron. My copy is
not a hand. Does anyone else have the same recollection?
Daniel
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:56:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 16th C non-alcoholic drinks?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Daniel Phelps wrote:
> While I seem to have misplaced my copy of it, Karen Hess's work
> "Martha Washington's Book of Cookery" might be worth a look.
>
> Daniel
Heresy, Milord, heresy to have mislaid so valuable a text.
Mine is here at hand.
Let's see.. lots on wines, recipes for wines,
discussions of beer and ale, verjuice, There is a bottled lemon water
R321.
Mention that Ingatestone Hall had piped supply of 'sweet'
spring water on page 17.
Beginning on page 363 there is a section on SIRRUP recipes and
Hess notes that these were clearly medicinal, but that they would have been
used to provide cooling drinks in warm weather. These include recipes
for sirrups of violets, roses, etc. Lots of steeping of petals in water.
You could substitute bottled syrups I would think.
The manuscripts are dated circa 1580-1625,.
Johnnae
Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 14:17:22 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 16th C non-alcoholic drinks?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
There were various things posted about drinking water.
I finally had the time and checked EEBO fulltext--
Maison rustique, or The countrey farme by
Estienne, Charles, 1504-ca. 1564.Liébault, Jean, 1535-1596.Surflet,
Richard, fl. 1600-1616,Markham, Gervase, 1568?-1637.
London: Printed by Adam Islip for Iohn Bill, 1616.
First published in 1600
It states:
The common drinke of all liuing creatures is water.
OLd and ancient Histories doe sufficiently testifie, that water was the
first drinke which men vsed generally throughout the world, and
wherewith they con|tented themselues a long time, to vse it onely for
the quenching of their thirst: but afterward, vvhen voluptuousnesse
seized vpon mens appetite, they inuented and set before them diuers
sorts of drinkes. Wherefore hauing reiected water as a tastlesse and
vnsauourie thing, they haue in place thereof (in all such Coasts and
Countries as where the heat of the Sunne might bring forth and lead
along the grape vnto his full ripenesse) chosen Wine for the most
excellent and delightsome drinke of all o|thers:,,,,
Whereupon, some in stead of vvater haue taken vp the vse of Wine, and
others of Beere and Ale: some of Cyder and Perrie, and others, of all
sorts: some of honied vvater, or vvater sweetened vvith sugar: and
others, of other drinkes pressed and strained out from fruits, or the
decoctions of rootes.
Johnnae
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:29:55 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Beverage experiments
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
This is what the Muzammala is as mentioned in the chapter title
Chapter 110 (beginning on page 450) is titled
"Measures taken when drinking water cooled in Muzammala or
chilled with crushed ice (Thalj Madrub)" of the
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens.
It's defined as an insulated household vessel for cold water.
Johnna
David Friedman wrote:
> Another probably period technique is to have the liquid in a
> container being cooled by evaporation. One way recorded in the Middle
> East in the 19th century, and I suspect going much farther back, is
> water in the sort of clay container that lets a little of the water
> soak through and evaporate.
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:24:08 -0800
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] evaporative cooling
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Adamantius commented:
> <<< But it _is_ interesting to think of where, on the map of Europe, we
> find people cooling with unglazed pottery wine coolers soaked in
> water, >>>
>
> Are you speaking of modern times or do we have any evidence of
> evaporative cooling being used in period?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------
No references handy as I am not at the library...
There are earthenware wine jugs excavated from Roman sites that are
porous enough to have exhibited evaporative cooling. I am pretty sure
that the effect has long been known and exploited by many cultures.
Dragon
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:44:35 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] water
To: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Dorothy Hartley who wrote Food in England
did a volume on water.
Water in England
By Dorothy Hartley
Published by Macdonald, 1964
435 pages
Amazon in the US has copies
* *Unknown Binding:* 416 pages
* *Publisher:* Macdonald and Jane's (1978)
I bought a hardback copy while we were Cambridge in 84-85 so I suspect
my copy is this edition.
Johnnae
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:52:20 -0500
From: Kelly Keck <kellylynne at gmail.com>
Cc: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] wow.... just wow
Did anybody catch "How Beer Saved the World" on the Discovery Channel last
night? It did mention the "water not being safe to drink" issue, and they
verified it with a lab test. They tested water from a duck pond and
confirmed the presence of bacteria found in duck poop in that water. They
made it into beer, in a process that involved boiling, and the bacteria were
not found in the beer.
Though, I'm sure a lot of water sources were perfectly safe. You wouldn't
want to drink from a river in a city, but you make a good point about wells
being likely safer than they are today. The problem is, without germ theory
or any way to test water, it's hard to tell which is safe and which isn't.
Adriana
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:20:21 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tenth Century Mead Recipes
You should also take a look at PPC 76 page 30 "Drunkards, Belly-Gods & Servants of the Paunch: Food References in Florio?s Translation of The Decameron by Eden Rain and David Waiddon. We found many references to people drinking water in Italy.
Eduardo
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:57:19 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Water, was Tenth Century Mead Recipes
Rumpolt (1581) has a chapter on water, not yet translated (although
probably soon, I took a break). There are also chapters on wine,
beer, and vinegar already translated.
I'm also working on porting the whole of Rumpolt to a website. Not
sure when it will be ready, but five spammers found it in the first
week before I tightened things up.
Ranvaig
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 15:39:43 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The great Medieval water myth
There's a classic volume by Dorothy Hartley entitled Water in England.
Johnnae
On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:46 PM, JIMCHEVAL at aol.com wrote:
<<< I realized I haven't yet mentioned my most recent blog post, on one of my
pet peeves about our era, in the most relevant forum: this one.
http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-great-medieval-water-myth.html >>>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 15:58:04 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The great Medieval water myth
It's 400 plus pages so a summary is rather hard to manage. Let's just say worth a look if you are doing water.
Worldcat says 235 libraries for 7 editions so interlibrary loan ought to be possible. I picked up my copy in Cambridge
back in 1989.
Probably easier to stumble across a copy in the UK than here.
Johnnae
On Nov 21, 2013, at 3:45 PM, JIMCHEVAL at aol.com wrote:
<<< Looks interesting but not very available.
What does she say on this issue? >>>
<the end>