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cider-msg – 1/1/11


Apple and other ciders. Cider presses.


NOTE: See also the files: cider-art, brewing-msg, apples-msg, fruits-msg, beverages-msg, mead-msg, perry-msg, wassail-msg, brewing-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.


Please respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: mead from pears?

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 93 07:50:01 EST

Summary: Make Perry instead! instructions included.


Greetings from Alizaunde-

Good gentle, there is no need to divert thy pears into so minor a brew as

mead. Fermented pear juice becomes Perry (as fermented peach juice becomes

Peachy) and stands, along with the justly legendary ciders, as the

foundation of England's non- honey `wines'. (Our grape wines, alas, bear

little investigation. Or flavor.) With Queen Mary so involved with her

Spanish suitor, these good native drinks are out of the fashion: how-

ever, I remember somewhat of their preparation, and my scribe will send it

thee. I wish thine undertaking all good profit.

A. de B.

-And from Honour, some practical tips:

Use wine yeast for Perry, not beer yeast (around here often bread yeast)

used for mead. Like English fermented cider, Perry is usually brewed

slightly `dry'; if the fruit is bruised, it must be brewed dry- get yeast

specifically bred for that purpose- as it would otherwise turn bitter.

the riper the pears are, short of over-ripe, the sweeter the Perry you can


        I've made Perry twice. The first batch taught me not to use bread

yeast (it was still drinkable, in fact I got compliments, but someone tipped

me about using wine yeast next time). I didn't have access to a cider press,

so I used a food processer and a jellybag (a cloth strainer.) General con-

census: pleasant, but too `yeasty', and oversweet.

        For the second batch I used commercial canned pear juice, and a

few wild

grapes for their captive yeasts. Everyone liked it more, most much more, than

the first. It had no yeast scent at all, and noone reported a yeast taste. It

only had one fault, in fact (aside from being only a month old); the solids

I didn't strain out caused really disgusting dregs.

        I was badly hampered by the fact that I'm physically allergic to

alcohol, and thus can't taste stuff to see how it's doing. You'll probably

produce far better results, even if you can't get commercial wine yeast to

work from, just because you don't have that limitation.

                              Good luck- Honour(please tell me how it




From: meastman

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Warmed or mulled Cider

Date: 18 Mar 1994 16:32 CST

Organization: University of Oklahoma - University Computing Services

Keywords: Spiced Cider:


Okay, here goes. This is my first post, so bear with me.

I have a recipe for a spiced *alcoholic* cider. This drink has been

well-received from one side of Ansteorra to another. Here is the recipe:


Golden Horn, by Lady Claryce;

        1 gallon Apple Cider

        2 cups White Rum (regular, *not* 151)

        1 cup Apple Schnapps

        2 Tablespoons orange peel

        1 Tablespoon lemon peel

        1 Tablespoon Allspice

        1 Tablespoon Cinnamon

        1 Tablespoon Honey


Let sit in a refrigerator for 36 to 48 hours. (Yes, It takes 2 days to make, but

the drink really is worth the time.) Pour drink off from sediment into another

container. This drink may be served chilled (excellent for those Ansteorran

summers, where you want something cold), or served heated, where it tends to

warm you inside out. Enjoy.  The only request I have is that if you change the

recipe, change the name. I've had some truly horrid renditions of Golden Horn

because someone felt their recipe is better. It may be, but *please* don't call

it by the same name!


Lady Claryce Rapheal Orfevre

Kingdom Chronicler of Ansteorra



From: Kel Rekuta <krekuta at tor.hookup.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hard (Pear) Cider

Date: 7 Oct 1995 04:42:00 GMT

Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA


>   I just aquired about 15lbs of pears, and was wondering...read

> hoping... that one of you wonderful people has a recipe for Hard Cider.

> I am thinking that an apple recipe could be used for pears, but I could

> be wrong.  Any information would be greatly appreciated.


>         Thanks in advance,

>             Beatrix von Dunsel Turm


Oh Oh!  Crush those lovely soft yellow plumpies up with a like amount of

apples, preferably tart cidery ones available right about now in most

northern lands. Pitch a champagne yeast on the must. Stir it up for

maybe five to eight days at room temperatture once a day. Keep it covered

to keep out the wee beasties.


Rack it through a sterilized (boiling in water) fine cheesecloth. Rack

this again after ten days to two weeks directly into champagne or beer

bottles. Some pressure will build up over the six to twelve months you

leave it carefully alone. Pop one every month just to see how wonderful

apple perry is as it ages to subtle, bubbly and fruity deliciousness

over the next few months.


If you are feeling generous, share your good fortune with your friends.

If they like light sparkling wines, they will be further endeared to you.





Ealdormerean Old Phart

(who is about to do the above mentioned activities)



From: Catherine A Hensley <hensley at lims1.lanl.gov>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hard cider

Date: 24 Oct 1995 22:09:29 GMT

Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory


rettig.4 at postbox.acs.ohio-state.EDU (Steven Rettig) wrote:

>         Is hard cider period?  I had some of the bottled stuff(the brand

> name escapes me...), and it was GOOOD!  If so, is there a brewer's recipe?


>                                              Steven "Bear" Rettig


Absolutely. Even if it weren't documentable (it is), common sense

would insist that it is period.  If you make cider and don't drink

it within, say, two weeks, it starts going hard.  This is often true

even with modern mundane refrigeration (although not with sterile

bottling techniques).


Early apple-pressing methods involved crushing the apples in a

trough with a trough-wide stone or wood wheel that rolled the length

of the trough (if linear) or around the trough (if circular).  I

found one mention of a horse-mill, that is, a horse was hitched to

the axle that went though the mill stone, and then walked around the

circular mill, rolling the wheel over the apples as it went.  Then

the pommace (crushed apples) was shoveled into cheeses (cloth bags)

and loaded onto the pressing area.  Boards were placed on top, and

then stones on top of the boards to apply pressure.  The juice drained

into a channel and then into containers.


By the Elizabethan era, screw presses were in use (like hobby presses



To make your own hard cider, the easy way <g>, buy a gallon jug of

pasturized cider at the store (NO preservatives, please).  Now comes

a choice:  add a few grains of bread yeast (NOT a whole envelope), OR

drink a bottle of bottle-fermented beer (I believe Guiness works) and

add the dreggs to your cider.  The bread yeast leaves the hard cider

with a slightly bready flavor (my dad used this method when I was a

kid [something he learned in the army, I suspect]).  The beer method

gives a distinctly different flavor.  You might also try a slosh from

a bottle of commercial hard cider--it may well still have some yeast

in it.  Now, DO NOT SEAL the bottle again.  My dad used to put a

children's balloon over the open neck of the jug to keep contaminants

out and allow the fermentation's CO2 to escape.  The balloon would

inflate a bit, and then the gas would escape bit by bit.  I'm more

scientific about it <g> with a fermentation lock, but the balloon

idea is easy and cheap.  Watch your cider for bubbles, which indicate

that fermentation is under way.  With only a few grains of bread yeast,

the fermentation should never really get out of hand; if you were

impatient and added a lot of yeast, expect vigorous, frothing

fermentation that will try to escape the jug.  If this happens,

transfer your cider to a big soup pot (cover with a lid, or with a

plate) for a couple of days.  A week or two after fermentation begins,

start drinking.  It will be sweet, carbonated, and slightly alcoholic

the first week, and more tart, carbonated, and alcoholic as time goes

on. Expect your home brew to be cloudy and taste a bit yeasty.  If

you want a clear brew in capped bottles, pick up a book on beer brewing

and read up about fining and bottling.


Hope this helps.

Aithne, Anlieplic Dun, Outlands



From: eoh at raster.kodak.com (Esther Heller)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hard cider

Date: 25 Oct 1995 21:19:51 GMT

Organization: Eastman Kodak


In article <46jj02$ebm at news.tamu.edu>, robertsk at tamu.edu writes:

>In article <v01510102acb2dac44432 at []> rettig.4 at postbox.acs.ohio-state.EDU (Steven Rettig) writes:


>>        Is hard cider period?  I had some of the bottled stuff(the brand

>>name escapes me...), and it was GOOOD!  If so, is there a brewer's recipe?


>>                                             Steven "Bear" Rettig


>    Ooooh... Bottled hard cider?  Where did you find it, and what was the name

>of the brand?  We've been making our own, but it never turns out even close to

>the same, sometimes it will carbonate and sometimes it won't.  We started out

>with plain old gallon jugs of TreeTop Apple Juice, a little brewers yeast, and

>an airlock (we used vodka in the airlock instead of the little tablets you

>crush up in case it backwashed).  I'm not sure if it is period or not.  We've

>also made a batch of strawberry cider, unfortunately, it was an experiment, and

>only 16oz got made. There were 4 ladies fighting over what was left in the




While I don't tolerate serious alcohol (1/2 glass wine or equivalent = wierd

headache in 5-10 min.) I do like "cider" (in the US generally just apple

juice) that has been left at room temperature about 3 days.  It gets a bit

fizzy and has a little bite but it takes several glasses for the alcohol

content to bother me.  The problem in the last 10 years is that even when

you buy from farm markets that make it on site, it has been dosed with some

fraction of a percent of sodium benzoate so it won't "spoil" (actually

ferment). I have to ask questions and am now down to 1 or 2 places in a

major retail apple growing area to get juice that will ferment anymore.


Mayhap this is your problem?  I have not had trouble getting undosed fresh

not pasturized juice in a tightly closed plastic milk jug to ferment all

by itself in 3-5 days at room temp.  When the jug starts to look slightly

inflated it is time to refrigerate and drink.


Esther Heller eoh at raster.kodak.com  



From: ALBAN at delphi.COM

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: cider, distillation

Date: 27 Oct 1995 00:27:38 -0400


Arval asks, regarding cider and common sense:

>Are there period recipes for hard cider?


the following comes from the Larousse Gastronomique

(London; Hamlyn Publishing Group  1988), which,

although i don't have its bibilography handy, is a source i

consider reasonably reliable:

Calvados: "Brandy made by distilling cider. Cider

distillation is a very old tradition in Normandy - it was

mentioned in 1553 in the diary of Gilles de Gouberville, a

gentleman of the Cotentin. The best Calvados is made

with cider that is over a year old...It is not, however, the

same as the American spirit, applejack...."

Cider: "...In France regulations were introduced under

Charlemagne, and in the 12th century cider-making

established   in Normandy and Britanny, where the

climate is very favourable for growing apples...Great

Britain also produces and consumes a great range of

ciders, generally pale in colour with a higher alcohol

content than in France, where processes sch as sweetening

and reconstitution with apple concentrate are


Perry: "A fermented drink made like cider but with pear

instead of apple juice. It has been made since ancient

times in western France: Normandy, Britanny, and

Maine. Sparkling perry is an inexpensive alcoholic drink

in the UK.

"The French word (poire') should not be confused with

the pear alcool blanc, referred to in full as Poire William."


yeah, i know there are no recipes listed above, but, hell,

good cider requires apple juice and yeast. how much more

of a recipe does one need? <grin>

on the legality of distillation by private individuals, in the

united states: it isn't. i looked into this a couple of years

ago, specifically asking my lawyer if it were legal for me to

distill for educational purposes (i put it that way: i wanted

to know if i could get away with distilling small batches (a

gallon or two at a time) using period techniques and

period recipes, and writing the whole thing up, for this

historical educational group i belonged to). he checked

with his ATF contact in st. louis, and the answer came

back. lo and behold, distillation by private individuals is

illegal. period. you gotta get federal licenses, and state

licenses, and periodic inspections, and so forth, and so on,

if you distill *anything* alcoholic.

brewing, however, is just fine.


alban, <hic>



From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hard cider

Date: 27 Oct 1995 21:25:19 GMT

Organization: Cornell University


In article <v01510102acb2dac44432 at []>,

rettig.4 at postbox.acs.ohio-state.EDU says...

>        Is hard cider period?  I had some of the bottled stuff(the brand

>name escapes me...), and it was GOOOD!  If so, is there a brewer's



This is the "most period possible" recipe for hard cider:


Get some unsulfured, unfiltered cider.

Let it sit in your basement for a while.

Let the gas escape from the containers once in a while so you don't get a

KABOOM! and a big mess.


Sample with trepidation.

If you're lucky, you'll get ambrosia.

If you're not lucky, but not unlucky, you'll get vinegar.

If you're unlucky, you'll get food poisoning.


I don't make hard cider like this, myself.


Here is a "much less period, but far more controlled" recipe for hard



You will need:


Cider, 5 or 5.5 gallons.  Get sulfured, unfiltered cider or unsulfured,

unfiltered cider.


1 Primary Fermenter with Air Lock


55 or so 12-oz brown long-neck beer bottles, clean and sterile.

55 bottle caps, also clean and sterile

Bottle Capper


Racking Tube


Carboy or Lauter Tub



Prime some non-attenuating ale yeast with a half cup of cider in a

sterile glass container until bubbles start to appear.


Pour all cider into your sterile fermenter.  If cider is unsulfured, add

a campden tablet or two.


Pitch (pour) primed yeast into fermenter and seal.  Put fermenter in

appropriate environment for ale yeast (dark, around 50 degrees F) with an

airlock on top, of course.


Monitor daily.  When fermentation has stopped "rocking", rack into a

carboy or into your lauter tub (if you don't own a carboy).  If you don't

own a carboy, quickly wash and sterilize your fermenter, then rack

"green" cider back into fermenter.


Allow to settle in the dark and cool (conditions as for fermenting) for a

couple days.


If you want a "still cider", bottl and age a few months in a dry, cool

basement. If you want a "sparkling cider", I prefer to "bottle



If you want to bottle kraeusen, rack your cider into a sterile container

(fermenter or lauter tub), take that extra half-gallon of cider and prime

with a bit of fresh yeast.  Add this to the fermented cider and bottle.  

Age as above.


If you want a dry cider, use an attenuating yeast.  I'm a sweet-tooth,




From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mulled cider recipe needed

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 11:58:09 -0400

Organization: Cornell University


In article <4hnsjo$6j9 at news-e2b.gnn.com>, magary at gnn.com (Al Magary) wrote:


Historically Accurate Mulled Cider:


Take a great honking pot of cider.

Add whatever spices you could afford.


Heat to JUST ABOVE body temperature and hold there for about 15 minutes

(no longer, as the spice's essential oils would then evaporate and be

gone). Do not boil, do not head to scalding temperatures.  It should be

just above normal body temperature, so as to infuse the essences and

aromas into the drinker's sensory array without burning the mouth.


Far too many people overheat their mulled cider, thus ruining it.  The

only time that truly "hot" cider is good is when you're still outside and

still freezing.  Once you're in a warm room, you don't want it to be

actually "hot", but at just above body temperature.


You don't need a thermometer to measure this, by the way--you've got a

finger and you've got a mouth.  Sip a little from a spoon WITHOUT waiting

for it to cool.  If it scalds you, it's too hot.



From: psobaka at mail.myriad.net (harry billings)

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:56:19 -0500

Subject: Re: apple presses


>Pug said:

>>Hopefully this time next year I'll have a press to make my own ciders

>>instead of having to buy it.

>Are you going to be making or buying this press?

>I can remember trying to use a blender to get the juice out of the

>apples. I ended up having to add so much water to make this work at

>all that what I got out was way too diluted.

>Stefan li Rous


If you are going to press apples for juice you have to pulp them first or

you will just break your press and/or not get much juice from them.

Plachoya Sobaka a most insignificant archer in Ravens Fort



From: phillip at gryffon.sps.mot.com (Phillip Abbot)

To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com

Organization: Motorola DSP, Austin TX

Date: 17 Oct 1996 14:09:15 GMT

Subject: Re: apple presses


In article <n1366620185.63 at riscgate.sps.mot.com> bryn-gwlad at eden.com writes:

>Pug said:

>>Hopefully this time next year I'll have a press to make my own ciders


>I can remember trying to use a blender to get the juice out of the

>apples. I ended up having to add so much water to make this work at

>all that what I got out was way too diluted.


Not so much cider I used to make, more an apple wine. Problem with apples is

they are HARD and like to hang on to theitr juice - as you found.


try freezing them before squeezing them - the freezing (especially if

done fairly S*L*O*W*L*Y makes ice crystals which rupture the cell membranes

- on defrosting, the juice almost runs out on its own. I cannot swear that this has no effect on flavour, though.





From: "Matthew R. Popalisky" <mpopali at comp.uark.edu>

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:24:51 -0500 (CDT)

Subject: Re: apple presses


On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, harry billings wrote:


> You could also try a meat grinder or some thing of that sort.


Oh yes.  The meat grinder would do admirably.


Fond, fond memories of making Mom's cranberry relish with the meat



I would not reccomend the food processor myself.  It tends to dejuice as

it goes.  The grinder would be a bit less messy, as I remember.






From: Richard Bainter <pug at interval.net>

To: ansteorra at eden.com, bryn-gwlad at eden.com

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:25:49 -0500 (CDT)

Subject: Re: apple presses


> >>Hopefully this time next year I'll have a press to make my own ciders

> >>instead of having to buy it.

> >Are you going to be making or buying this press?


I have plans to make one, but I have a friend who is *hopefully* making

me one since he has done it in the past and has all the materials to

make it sturdy and reinforced.


>>I can remember trying to use a blender to get the juice out of the

>>apples. I ended up having to add so much water to make this work at

>>all that what I got out was way too diluted.


>>I have considered a press in the past, but decided just to buy the

>>juice since I wouldn't use the press that much.


Well I certainly do not plan on buying a press. They currently run about

$200 for a ~4 gallon press. This isn't the amount of spare money I have

right now. (Although I do have spare time, and if I made it I wouldn't be able to use it this season anyway.) My brewing rate is up quite a bit, so I've started the process of accuring a press somehow. (I've got 25 gallons of cider based stuff brewing right now. Raspberry Cider, Strawberry Cider, Yule Cider, Cyser and a plain old hard cider.)


>>The one disadvantage I can see to buying the fresh fruit and

>>juicing it is that you are buying prime, top of the line fruit for



As well, I am able to pick and blend the type of apples for specific

flavors. This is my main objective for pressing my own.


>>It was my impression that both today and in period the

>>bruised or otherwise less than prime fruit ended up in juice unless

>>there was a surplus that you couldn't use any other way.


That's still how it's done for most juices. Sell the good stuff as

apples, make the questionable looking, but still good apples into



>>But perhaps the extra expense is not that much for what you are

>>getting in the way of no prservatives and natural yeasts.


I am hoping it will be worth it in just better taste. (Things sitting

around my house too long will start fermenting on the yeasts floating

around in the air from the amount of brewing of late.)


> I have two sets of plans for a press. One small and one large. I have

> never constructed them.


I would be very interested in the plans you have. I have plans from

other cider makers on the net, as well as a reference to one the

Canadian Agriculture department(?) published. (Agriculture Canada leaflet

A73-1046 (ISBN 0-662-001551-6) - called 'Home Preparation of Juices, Wines

and Cider'.)


> The large handles " two boxes of apples at a time to

> produce 2 to 10 gallons of juice", or so the write-up says. Thes are not

> period, but appear to be functional.


At this point I want functional. Getting to fresh juice instead of store

bought is a step in the right direction. (Gotta do all this period stuff

in baby steps. *grin*) After getting the functionality of a press down,

I can investigate period presses.


Phelim Uhtred Gervas  | "I want to be called. COTTONTIPS. There is something

Barony of Bryn Gwlad  |  graceful about that lady. A young woman bursting with

House Flaming Dog     |  vigor. She blinked at the sudden light. She writes

pug at pug.net           |  beautiful poems. When ever shall we meet again?"



From: hughn at ssd.fsi.com (Hugh Niewoehner)

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 09:41:42 CDT

Subject: RE: Cider presses



Oregon Specialty Products sells a fruit/cheese press for about $60 IIRC.

They are a wine making wholesaler based out of Portland, OR.  The press is

made to easy to clean and use.   It suspends over a large

bucket/trashcan/whatever. I have the data at home with my vinting business

files. To do business with them you'll need a state tax number.  Their

prices are pretty good and response is great.  Generally, if I place an

order before 10 a.m. they ship it the the same day.  


Bug me at: Borrendohl at juno.com or wait until monday and I'll try to remember

to send it to from here.  






From: hughn at ssd.fsi.com (Hugh Niewoehner)

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 13:52:08 CDT

Subject: RE: Cider Press



Here's the data for the presses.


Oregon Specialty Co., Inc.

7024 NE Glisan St.

Portland Oregon 97213-5599

PH: 503/254-7494

Fax: 530/251-2936


They are winemaking supply house dealing _wholesale_only_.  They will

require a state tax number to show that you are a valid retailer prior to

selling to you.  They can also refer you to their nearest retailer who can

order it for you.  


My price list dated for August give the wholesale price as $57.50. Internal

capacity 1.8 gallons. Shipping weight is 11 pounds.  Pressing bags are 2.10

each.   Usable with all fruit including apples as a juice/cider press or as

a cheese press.  






From: Brian Shafer <shafer at kingsnet.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wassail recipe

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:34:50 -0800


Rebecca Cairns wrote:

> On Tue Nov 26 1996, Holly Allan wrote:


> >I've been following this thread for a bit and I'd love to try some

> >of the recipies that have been posted.  I do however have one question,

> >and please excuse me if the answer is obvious; but could you please tell

> >me what "Cyser" is?


> Also following this thread ... I believe the ingredient in question is "cider".

> (Reasoning: 1. cider is a common main ingredient in the recipes given so far.

> 2. "s" is next to "d" on most keyboards, substituting would give "cyder"; easy

> typo - even if it was made twice.  3. phonetically, "cyder" and "cider" are

> the same and Webster's Dictionary gives "cyder" as a British variation for

> "cider").  Marc/Alexander: did you mean "cyder/cider"?


> Isabella.

> <%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%>

>   Lady Isabella Oakwood, Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere, Midrealm

>          Azure, an oak leaf and on a chief argent three acorns azure

>       Rebecca Cairns, Kanata, Ontario, Canada, ab575 at FreeNet.carleton.ca

> <%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%>



Cyser is cider but it has extra adder sugar (usally honey) to produce a

higher alcohol content.  Apple juice fermented by itself is cider just

as honey and water (plus a few brewing chemicals) is mead.  When you add

fruits or spices it is technically something else.  Mead with fruit is

called melomel and mead with spices is called metheglin.  Also on the

same note grape wine made with honey is called pyment and pyment made

with herbs is called hippocras.  Confusing isn't it?  

If yoou really are interested in making mead and cider and such here are

a few books I suggest. Making Mead (Honey Wine) by Roger A. Morse

published by wicwas press, Making Mead by Bryan Acton and Peter Duncan

published by G.W. Kent, Inc. and Swet and Hard Cider Making it, using

it, and enjoying it by Annie Proulx and Lew Nichols published by Garden

Way Publishing.  Enjoy!


Brian Shafer



Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:17:18 EDT

From: Kallyr at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - cider apples


Golden Russet is a period cider apple which is still grown and highly

regarded. Another is Ashmead's Kernel (also russeted) which was introduced in

the 1700's as a cider apple.  (Russets are brownish gold rough spots on the

skin of apples.)


Various modern pippins are descendants of pippins highly regarded as cider

apples, such as the Ribston Pippin (also know as Essex Pippin, Glory of York)

considered to have originated in Yorkshire, England around 1700.


Information from Fruit, Nut and Berry Inventory, Second Edition by Kent Whealy

(Decorah, Iowa: Seed Saver Publications, 1993).


~~Minna Gantz/ Sherry <KALLYR at AOL.COM>



Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:50:30 -0700

From: Eylat Poliner <allotta at earthlink.net>

Subject: SC - Re: hist-brewing: Apple cider


Philippa Alderton wrote:

> I have just gotten access to an unlimited supply of unpasteurized, no

> preservative added, apple cider.

> Any suggestions?


Do you know what apples these were from??  The best apple cider is a

blend of sweet, tart and sour apples.   Try red or gold delicious for

30% or must and granny smith for 30% while the rest is more bittersweet

apples. You can add sugar to sweeten and/or boost alcohol (apple

wine?) Acid titration should be 0.8%.  Adjust with MALIC acid.

A good wine yeast will give a good cider.  Also, an English Ale yeast

will produce an English style SCRUMPY.


If you only have dessert apples (sweet) they will not produce a good

cider, you need more acidic apples to give complexity.  Sweet apples

will add bouquet and flavor.

Sulfite 50ppm to kill wild yeasts.  After fermentation, you can bottle

condition for a bubbly or have a still cider.  Pectic enzyme can help

clear the pectic haze if you want a brillant, clear cider.


Good luck and send me a sample.

Mark Poliner



[sent by "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>]

From: Crystal Isaac <xtal at sigenetics.com>

To: sca-aethelmearc at andrew.cmu.edu <sca-aethelmearc at andrew.cmu.edu>

Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 3:22 PM

Subject: [SCA-AE] RE: [ae-mod] Cider (Was Period drinks)


oooo, thanks for the link, Katja.


I skimmed the cider section of the beverages on Stephen's Florilegium. Most

of it is very good but there are a few things that made by brain go POP!


A few warnings not addressed in the articles I read:

1) Sulfites (camden tablets) are a common addition to modern brews, intended

to kill any wild yeast or other nasty little buggers in the Unpasteurized

juice or honey. However, some people are allergic to sulfites, and reactions

range from headaches to anaphylactic shock (fall-over-dead). If you use

sulfites, make a note of it on the label and tell people who ask "what's in



2) A another suggestion presented was to place a balloon (or a latex exam

glove) over the top of the fermentation vessel, this will keep things from

getting in and give the CO2 gas a place to go. It's an excellent idea, but

many people are allergic to latex and the powder on latex products, again

reaction vary from skin rashes to anaphylactic shock (fall-over-dead). It

would be a far better practice to buy a real fermentation lock. They are

quite cheap and easy to use.


3) Unpasteurized juice can contain the bad type of ecoli (somebody addressed

this already on ae-mod), so either buy pasteurized juice or make sure it's

clean. If you doubt how important this is, do a web search on ecoli or

consider Odwalla and Jack-in-the-Box had their pants sued off because of

ecoli. Check out any number of good books on cider for ways to clean juice,

the most commonly referred to is:

Proulx, Annie and Nichols, Lew. _Sweet and Hard Cider: Making It, Using It &

Enjoying It_. A Garden Way of Publishing Book  ©1988 by Storey

Communications Inc., Pownal, VT 05261. ISBN 0-88266-352-6. (Excellent text

on apple trees and making juice from your own apples. Good section on

distilling and the potential legal problems of distilling.)

4) Somebody was recommending using plastic milk jugs. I would beg and plead

with anybody who wants to brew to buy cider in glass jugs and use those

instead. I've been brewing too long to believe you can really get a milk jug

clean enough (on the other hand, some people in my brewing guild make fun of

me for being too paranoid about cleanliness).


Another minor point:

Allspice is not period, neither is vanilla. Ok, vanilla could be period if

you are very late period and Spanish, but it was so shockingly expensive not

even kings were using it as a food, it was a medicinal. I wish vanilla was

period <sigh>.


Crystal of the Westermark



Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:22:03 -0500

From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


CBlackwill at aol.com wrote:

> Does

> anyone have any information of which particular family of apples would be

> most appropriate for a "period style" cider?


Well, one of my cider books says "In England, the most esteemed cider apple in

the seventeenth century was the Red Streak, which gave 'the richest and most

vinous liquor.'  Other favorites were the Bromesbury Crab, the Red & White Must

apples, the Harvey, the Pearmain, the Foxwhelp, and the Gennet-Moyle."

_Cider: Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider_  by Annie Proulx & Lew

Nichols; 2nd ed. p 92.

(the first edition is slightly better than the 2nd)


If you can get your hands on them, Kingston Black is a good one-apple cider

apple, but otherwise I suggest you use a blend of apple types.  Definitely throw

in a few crab apples for tannins if what you have available is mostly dessert

apples. Red Delicious makes a good blending base, with lots of aromatics, but

requires plenty of more flavorful varieties to give the cider character.  I'm

told that Golden Russet is an excellent cider apple, both sweet and tart with a

nice aroma.  The Roxbury Russet was developed in Massachusetts in 1649, and is

listed as a superior cider apple.  Winesaps are good blended with dessert apples

such as the delicious.


I have lots more info on apple varieties if you are interested, but sadly not

much on which ones were developed when.


- -Magdalena



Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:46:28 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


>Granny Smith is a good all purpose variety for juice that is not cloyingly

>sweet t as is Macintosh (my favorite).


But when fermented, all that sweetness is converted to alcohol, so the

resulting cider will not be sweet at all.  The main thing Macs will

contribute is perfume.


Cheers, Colin



Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:44:09 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


Cider is certainly period and easy to make, and (unlike, say, beer or wine)

the "period style" was probably not greatly different than modern

style. You press the juice and ferment it.  No boiling, sterilization,

etc. If you have a wild yeast culture (for example, on your pressing

equipment), you don't even have to pitch yeast, but that's unlikely to be

true for you; an ale yeast should work fine.


As far as apple varieties go, this has been discussed before on this list

and is therefore somewhere in the Florilegium.  Very few cultivars can be

reliably dated even to the 16th century, much less to the Middle Ages, and

of those only Lady (possibly 16th c.) is grown commercially in small

quantities. Furthermore, there is little or no evidence that any varieties

were cultivated specifically for cider production in the MA.  Therefore, it

will be next to impossible to re-create a period cider from period apples,

without growing your own.


Grannies will certainly make a tart cider - in fact, the acid will be so

high that it will probably take months to mellow to a good drinkable

product (you will be hoping for a malo-lactic fermentation in the

bottle). Mix in some Winesaps or Northern Spies, if you can get them, to

add character.


There are several books available on cidermaking - let me know if you're

interested in a bibliography.  There is also a Cider Digest list with lots

of great discussions.  Two good Web pages are:

http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/GraftonG/cider/homepage.htm - the Real Cider and

Perry page

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/Content2.HTM - great

page by an English cider maker.


Bottom line, though, is that there is precious little information out there

on pre-17th century apple cultivation (although there is a certain amount

of MIS-information).  If you live in an area where "wild" apple trees grow,

or where crabapples are still grown, try making cider from them - it will

be closer than anything else you can get to what was generally available in

Northern Europe through the 13th century.


Good luck,




Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:55:35 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


Stefan, I just tapped my new fall cider, and while dry, it is getting very nice.

I bottled it three or four weeks ago.


Your first problem was method.

Definitely use a Food processor/food mill to crush the apples. The blender

is just the wrong tool. If you have to use a blender, Grate the apples first.

Take the pulp and put into a straining bag or cheese cloth and press or  

wring out the cider.


Both times you had contamination from wild microbes.

the first time was contamination by wild mold, the second by acetobacter,

or wild vinegar "mother".


Definitely sterilize all equipment with a liberal washing of a good sterilent.

I have found that I get good results from CBrite, which you can get on line,

or from a local brew store. It is not sulfated and dries without undo rinsing.

Definitely use fermentation locks on all ferment vessels.

Some people say you can use a sheet of plastic over the pail with a rubber

band, but this is only marginally effective. I have never had luck with it.


I would also suggest that you try pasteurizing your apples by heating it to

150 degrees and holding it for a half hour. Don't boil it, unless you are doing

something special, like adding spices. Let it cool in a sink full of Ice water

till it is less than 110 degrees before adding yeast, though.

You'll need to maintain this kind of microbial control until you have

replaced the local environmental wild yeasts with those which are



You can add a natural apple juice concentrate at this time to "Boost

the cider" if you like. I find that these are cheap at the local supermarket.

as long as no preservative compounds are added to the concentrate this

is perfectly fine.


If you are sulfate tolerant, a few campden tablets at the start are good for

controlling process contamination, but you'll want a yeast that is tolerant

of sulfates, such as Pasteur Champagne ( which makes a VERY dry cider ).

I'd suggest not using sulfates if you use an ale or lager yeast, as they will

skunk the cider.


Since you are kinnling the wild good microbes along with the wild bad

microbes, you'll need to add a yeast culture.

Two recomendations: pick a good yeast, and makes sure that you

started it well before you get to work on the apples.

I get a quart jug of pastureized apple juice (no preservatives), and fit it

with a fermentation lock, and put the yeast there at least a week


A vigorous yeast is your best friend, it becomes the "big bully on the

block" and rapidly out competes other michrobes for the sugars in the

Cider. This helps to eliminate molds and wild yeasts.


Just some hints.





Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:02:32 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider more hints.


Oh and don't bottle it for at least six months, to allow all fermentation to finish.  The Cider will have two ferments. one in six montsh along, this is the

"Malolactic Fermentation"  this converts two parts very tart malic acid to

one part milder lactic acid, and makes the cider mush sweeter.

bottling it too soon will prevent this.


If you do pasteurize it yourself or use pasteurised cider, youll need to innoculate the cider with the malolactic bacterium culture. This is wild in apples, but is killed by pastuerization, along with vinegar and other less desireable microbes You can also get this culture at the brew store along with the yeast, though you may need to ask for it specifically.





Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:51:48 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider more hints.


"brandu" offered many good tips for the novice cider-maker.  Follow his

advice and you should have better luck.  The most important advice is to

make sure that everything that touches the cider is sterile, and the second

most important is to exclude air from the cider once fermentation starts.


At the risk of confusing things a little, I will offer some alternative



First, about sterilizing or sulfiting to kill off the "bad" wild yeasts and

bacteria: This has been the subject of much controversy among cider

makers. The advantage is that the outcome is much more predictable;

nothing will happen until you pitch yeast, and then you will get only the

results from the yeast variety that you selected.  If you have had previous

bad experience, this may be a good way to restore confidence.


OTOH, if you use sterile containers and good-quality juice (don't press any

rotten apples), I think sterilizing the juice is not necessary.  It

certainly isn't period.  Pasteurized apple juice does not taste the same -

it loses the "fresh" apple taste - and the fermented cider will not taste

the same either.  Pasteurizing pear juice is really a bad idea (speaking

from experience) because, in addition to the taste effect, it will cause a

thick brown haze in the fermented product that cannot be cleared.


The important thing is to have a really active yeast "starter" to pitch

into your cider.  Make this by mixing yeast with some warm water, then add

that to a pint or so of cider.  Cover it (but don't cap it!!) and leave

somewhere warm (75 to 90 degrees works well) for a few hours.  It will

begin to foam up as the yeast gets going.  Then pitch this into your

cider. The yeast will take over and you won't have to worry about mold or

wild yeasts.  (I have actually done this with a cider where mold began

growing on the surface - just skimmed off the colonies, pitched yeast, and

voila! No more mold growth.)


The period way to do this is to make cider with the same equipment for

several years.  A natural yeast culture will build up on the press, etc.,

and inoculate the juice as it is pressed; fermentation will take off with a

day or two, before anything else really has a chance.  You still have the

chance of vinegar bacterial contamination, and a few other nasty bacterial

effects, which were probably very common in period ciders.


Second, how do you know when to bottle?  Again, this is a complex topic

that is repeatedly discussed among cider makers.  The simplest approach is

to allow the yeast to ferment all the sugar, i.e. until the cider is

completely "dry" without any residual sweetness.  The modern way to confirm

this is with a hydrometer; dry cider has a specific gravity very close to

that of water, 1.00.  Another way is to ferment in a clear glass container;

when the sugar is gone, the yeast goes dormant and falls to the bottom,

"clearing" the cider.  This is very dramatic!  Alternatively, with

experience you could probably go by taste; this is the most likely period



If you do this, then as brandu points out you will need to wait several

months after bottling and hope for a good malo-lactic fermentation.  This

will make the cider fizzy, and will reduce the "sharpness" of the young

cider, making it much more pleasant to drink.  It's probably not period,

however, as bottling methods weren't available until the late 17th century,

and trying for a malo-lactic fermentation in medieval containers sounds

like a great recipe for vinegar.  Medieval cider was almost undoubtedly

"still," that is, not effervescent.


The alternative approaches are to stop fermentation by killing the yeast,

or to use the procedure known as "degorgement" from the champagne

process.   I have not done this yet, so cannot recommend it.  It's also

clearly not period.


Hope this helps,




Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:45:04 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider more hints.


> First, about sterilizing or sulfiting to kill off the "bad" wild yeasts and

> bacteria:  This has been the subject of much controversy among cider

> makers.  The advantage is that the outcome is much more predictable;

> nothing will happen until you pitch yeast, and then you will get only the

> results from the yeast variety that you selected.  If you have had previous

> bad experience, this may be a good way to restore confidence.


Which is why I suggested it.

When I used these techniques, I did not have "bad luck"

When I did not, I occasionally got "stygian tomb dust in a bottle"



> OTOH, if you use sterile containers and good-quality juice (don't press any

> rotten apples), I think sterilizing the juice is not necessary.  It

> certainly isn't period.  Pasteurized apple juice does not taste the same -

> it loses the "fresh" apple taste - and the fermented cider will not taste

> the same either.  Pasteurizing pear juice is really a bad idea (speaking

> from experience) because, in addition to the taste effect, it will cause a

> thick brown haze in the fermented product that cannot be cleared.


I agree. I have not tried perry, but pasteurized juice lacks a little sharpness.

OTOH, pasteurized juice is more dependable for the novice (I consider

myself still a novice BTW), which, again, is why I suggested it.


A note to home pressers of apples, an occaisional spoonful of lemon

juice in the crusher will help eliminate the "brown goo" effect ( though it

does affect the final taste - don't use very much)


> The important thing is to have a really active yeast "starter" to pitch

> into your cider. <snip> (I have actually done this with a cider where mold began

> growing on the surface - just skimmed off the colonies, pitched yeast, and

> voila!  No more mold growth.)


Wow... I'm impressed at your fortitude!

Never had the guts to try this, myself!! What made you do it?


> Another way is to ferment in a clear glass container;

> when the sugar is gone, the yeast goes dormant and falls to the bottom,

> "clearing" the cider.  


I was advised to wait until the Fermentation lock stops bubbling and then

add two months (I think listeneing to a cellar closet full of bubbling carboys

beats watching a balloon blow up any day, btw ;-) )


The purpose of this is to encourage the cider to go still, and start the

Malolactic ferment, which it does not like to do in increased pressures.

My cider is still. after about 3 months I rack it off the lees ( and there will

be a lot of them!! ) as it is very clear by then, into another carboy, and

wait. ( I start in a 6 1/2 Gallon carboy, and rack it over to a 5 gal carboy.

About 3/4 gallon of lees is at the botton, as opposed to other methods

which have only a quart or so, Since the apple solids which make

pressed cider cloudy fall to the bottom.

The final 1/2 to 3/4 gal of clear cider is put into the fridge for cooking,

and the occasional curious sip. (though I am thinking of getting a vinegar

barrel... )


After a while the lock starts bubbling just a little, and that means the M_L has

started. when that is over, I bottle.


> and trying for a malo-lactic fermentation in medieval containers sounds

> like a great recipe for vinegar.  


Malolactic in a glass carboy is perfectly fine, and if the cider is bottled

after the M_L ferment, it is drinkable within a week.

Keep the carboys locked, and use a clean sterile carboy when you

rack it, and there is no problem.

I do not know about Barrels for the purpose, but as soon as I can afford a

few, I will be experimenting with the methods.





Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:43:55 -0500

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>



I go back to Colin's original post of 05 Apr 2000:


>>>>Cider is certainly period and easy to make, and (unlike, say,

beer or wine) the "period style" was probably not greatly different

than modern style.  You press the juice and ferment it.  No boiling,

sterilization, etc. <<<<


>>>>As far as apple varieties go, this has been discussed before on this list

and is therefore somewhere in the Florilegium.  Very few cultivars can be

reliably dated even to the 16th century, much less to the Middle Ages, and

of those only Lady (possibly 16th c.) is grown commercially in small

quantities. Furthermore, there is little or no evidence that any varieties

were cultivated specifically for cider production in the MA.  Therefore, it

will be next to impossible to re-create a period cider from period apples,

without growing your own.<<<<


I was looking in a book I recently acquired, THE OXFORD BOOK OF

FOOD PLANTS, Harrison, Masesfield & Wallis, 1969, which has some

very nice plates.  The apple section had a separate listing for "Cider

Apples and Perry Pears" which states "...high tannin content [apples]

have been grown for cider and perry for at least 2,500 years.  In England

cider apples were probably grown  in Saxon times but perry pears may not

have been introduced until the Norman Conquest, Normandy then as now

being a great perry area."  Specifically, the author classifies three distinct

catagories of English ciders: "sweet", "bittersweet" and "sharp". Examples

are "Sweet Coppin" (Devonshire apple), "Tremlitt's Bitter" (Devonshire apple),

and "Kingston Black" (Somerset, Glouster and Hereford apple).  Most ciders

(he states) were blended from several varieties to get a proper balance.

"Kingston Black" however was recommended for a single cider.  "Most cider

apples and perry pears have no recorded history", the author states, but

older name will have "simple names of a farm or village or their raiser".


For perry pears, he mentions "Thorn Pear" (known in 1676) and "Red Pear"

(Herefordshire and Worchestershire) "known since Tudor times".  Perhaps

of value in research would be a book he mentions, POMONA

HEREFORDENSIS by Thomas Andrew Knight, 1811. in which many almost

forgotten cider and perry varieties are identified.  Perhaps some of our

antiquarian bibliofiles could scrounge up this pome tome???  The heart of

cider making in England seems to be in the Devonshire/ Herefordshire area

and perry making in France (Normandy).  Can some of our European list

members check out regional sources in these areas as any period evidence

may be most likely to dwell in those locations?


>>>>Bottom line, though, is that there is precious little information out there

on pre-17th century apple cultivation (although there is a certain amount

of MIS-information).  If you live in an area where "wild" apple trees grow,

or where crabapples are still grown, try making cider from them - it will

be closer than anything else you can get to what was generally available in

Northern Europe through the 13th century.<<<<


Maybe, maybe not, if Dr. Wallis' study (unfortunately not well documented)

is anywhere close to accurate.  At least he is English and had at hand local

sources available to access.   The specificly grown fruit for fermentation

he cites would tend to preclude good cider from "wild" apples or crabs. My

own studies (as I am in progress of commercial growing of period and "old"

varieties now of apples and pears) seems to indicate a very definite and

period "specialization" of fruits for eating, cooking, desserts, and



"Wild" apples grown from seeds are totally random and are mostly awful,

especially in the US where the current orchard stocks from which seedlings

occur are generally only "eating apples" and not particularly good ones at

that.    I think your statement might be more possibly true in areas of Europe

where the original Malus stock from which domestic apples were breed still

exists. I would suspect that the cider from Saxon times was very carefully

produced from certain varieties (names of which were not recorded) by

families or villages which became known for their product's superior taste.

It seems that many cider varieties are very limited in their microclime and

soil preferences, so a widespread and uniform industry does not seem to have

been the case.   I think recipes (passed by non written means) for sucessful

blends were probably "secret" to some degree as to the varieties used and



Balthazar of Blackmoor  asked:


>>>>Does anyone have any information of which particular family of apples

would be most appropriate for a "period style" cider?  I would like to use

"belgian apples", but have no information regarding which, if any, were

grown in medieval times.  If all else fails, I will use Granny Smith.  I am

looking for a tart apple cider, but the apples themselves need not be tart.

The yeast should take care of that nicely.  Any ideas?<<<<


I think the best way to "approximate"  period ciders and perrys is to research the most common 17th century varieties and what few 16th century varieties we can find, then look at the 18th and 19th century apples which

descended from them (which we do have some records concerning their parentage).

Generally, apples in Britain are classified in 8 or 9 "groups".  Most cider apples will be in one or two groups at most.   Go about selection by eliminating

Apples which do not fall in the same groups as cider apples.  This should knock out about 75% of apple varieties in modern cultivation.   Then look for common

ancestors of the oldest cider apples in the remaining 25% and see which

of the 17th century varieties were the most frequent ancestors of good 18th

century varieties.   As cider and perry varieties were and are so specialized,

we can at least see some of the common characteristics of shape, size, color

and acidity which would help identify "periodlike" probabilities of the unnamed

period survivors (if any).  I think this is better than a hit or miss method

using Granny Smith, Northern Spy or Winesaps, which are grown for their cooking

and eating characteristics.  Again, I point out that "tart" is not the only

characteristic of good cider apples, it is a BLEND of sweet, bittersweet and sharp apple tastes.


Akim Yaroslavich



Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:55:34 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>

Subject: Re: SC - cider


> Well now I'm confuzzled.  Every year we go to a local orchard that sell

> unpasteurized juice.  We buy at least 10 gallons of their "apple cider" for a

> party.  These plastic jugs sit out on the porch in the weather which can be

> above or below freezing but is usually quite cold.  It takes about a day or

> two to have slightly alcoholic cider that is just yummy!


> how is this so?


the short answer is:

there is cider and there is cider....

"Apple Cider" has several definitions. one is the unfiltered juice from the

pressing of crushed apples, another is the wine made from such juice.

We are using definition two.


What you are doing is fine, and indeed very yummy, but we are talking

making a rather strong wine out of it.


A large part of the yummyness of the "regrigerator cider" you are making

is the quantity of sugar. There is still a huge amount of unfermented sugar

in your jugs. What we are doing is very similar to several recipes in or just

outside of Period which call for aging the cider to develop the alcoholic

content to it's maximum.


When this is done, the sugars (which largely balanced out the tartness of

the Malic Acid naturally present in the apple) are mostly gone, making the

result seem _much_ more tart in taste. The malolactic ferment cuts the

tartness by roughly 3 to 1, making the result more balanced, and allowing

the residual sweetness in the wine, and other flavor elements, to show

more in the wine. It does make a difference.


Cider does have a subtle flavor so the yeast you use will strongly affect

the final flavor, and the base wine tends to be _very_ clear, which is why

the choice of yeast is so important. Wild Cider yeast tends to be just fine.

It has been living wild in the orchard, and is well suited to apples.

If you have a strong "wild" yeast presence in your house from much bread

making, or some such, then you might want to hedge your bets by adding

a well started yeast culture of a more appreopriate variety.


Bread yeast is why so many of those college dorm "Jungle Juices" I

remember so well from my days in the hallowed halls of Academia were

so nasty and cloudy. Bread yeast should never be used to make cider.

Cider yeast may be used to make bread, IIRC, though I have never tried it,



Certainly a large number of the bread recipes in period call for ale barm

as the leavening agent.





Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:42:29 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - cider


JGedney at dictaphone.com writes:

<< another is the wine made from such juice.

We are using definition two.

What you are doing is fine, and indeed very yummy, but we are talking

making a rather strong wine out of it.  >>


Apple wine and apple cider are 2 different things.


Anything over 6 1/2 per cent alcohol is apple wine and it is usually produced

using the methods used to normally brew other types of wine. From 1 to 6 1/2

per cent is cider which locally is does not undergo the process that is used

to make apple wine but rather it is fermented on it's own. Under 1 per cent

is apple juice. As an added note cider is somewhat sparkling while apple wine

is a still beverage.


Most of the apple growers around here do not go to any great lengths to grow

specific apples for cider making to be sold at the road side stands but rely

on picking drops daily and pressing them. It is common practice to leave the

jug sit for a few days until it becomes 'bubbly.' Further sitting (e.g., a

few weeks) produces 'hard cider' and leaving it several months produces cider

vinegar from the same jug.


Now this may or may not reflect what is done in other parts of the US but

this is the way it is done in my neck of the woods.


Admittedly, commercial production is far different from what has been

described in this post.





Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:58:47 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


> I've been meaning to ask- what kind of yeast should you innoculate your

> cider with, if you want to get good stuff?


A lot of folk seem to like Pasteur Chanpagne,

some like to use a mild flavored Ale yeast, such as Wyeast 1056.


There are two schools of thought that seem to be at work here.


Wine yeasts will finish dryer, converting more of the sugar into alchohol,

more or less necessitating the malolactic conversion, or the result is hard

to drink. But if you like a dry wine, such as champagnes and other wines

in that family, this is a good end product to strive for.


Ale yeasts will finish out at a lower alcohol concentration, so may produce a

sweeter, fruitier end result. If you like Auslese, or sweet, fruity wines, you can try this.


Many people who make cider will also boost the cider, to sweeten it, until the

achohol concentrations get lethal for the yeast variety used.

In wine yeasts that tends to be 14-21% , in ale yeasts that is closer to 8%.


After the terminal concentration any added sugars will not ferment and render

the end result sweeter. This is done to make the Cider more "appley and sweet"

Usually apple juice concentrate is added to provide the sugars.


It is possible (if the brewer is patient, uses a highly tolerant yeast, like champagne, rackes it to a clean carboy, and boosts the sugar regularly -- once a month or so), to make a semidry wine that will knoch your socks off at 40 to 50 proof. The thing is a that often in cider you will not taste the alcohol, as the bright acid notes and other flavors will mask the alcohol taste. This means you can make a "Stealth Bomber" Cider. (You don't see it coming, but you feel it's effects!)


You can make this kind of cider, but it requires care and patience.

It may take as much as a year to finish.





Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:29:21 -0800 (PST)

From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


> I've been meaning to ask- what kind of yeast should you innoculate your

> cider with, if you want to get good stuff?


I'm personally going to try with a lager yeast, Munich Lager, BC 2308.  It produced a lot of 'green apple' flavour (acetaldehyde) when I made a lager at room temp with it.





Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:14:22 -0500

From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


"Alderton, Philippa" wrote:

> I've been meaning to ask- what kind of yeast should you innoculate your

> cider with, if you want to get good stuff?


   That really depends on who you talk to.  To make a traditional cider, use

either the natural yeast if possible or an ale yeast.  I like a Nottingham or

Windsor, some of my friends swear by Edme.  The results will be anywhere from 4

to 12%, depending on how much sugar you add.  (For a sweet, lightly alcoholic

apple cider, add about 1/2 a tablespoon of dry yeast and drink within 2-3

days.) You can get some interesting flavor variations using the different

styles of ale yeasts.  To make apple wine, I use a white wine yeast such as

Lalvin 71B or K1V, which usually tops out at 16-18%.  Some people swear by

champagne yeast, but I can't abide the aftertaste that champagne yeast leaves.

(The peach wine I made with it topped out at 23%.)  YMMV  Wyeast has a cider

yeast out that I just started, so I don't know how it will work.  Unfortunately,

I don't know what the base yeast strain is.

   The decision with yeast boils down to what you like to drink.  I'm a

lightweight with a taste for sweet, so I prefer to make a cider of which I can

drink more than one glass.


- -Magdalena



Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:08:37 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


Note that most apple juice only has enough sugar to produce about 6%

alcohol, so almost any commercial yeast will ferment to dryness.  If you

want a sweeter finished product, you will have to try one of the methods

brandu suggests to boost the sugar content until the yeast gives out, or

try to stop the fermentation before it is finished.





Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:03:52 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: SC - Yeast for Cider


These two Web sites have good information about yeast for ciders:




This is a big subject, and a lot depends on personal preference - there is

no "best" yeast for cider, it depends on the type of cider you want.


For example, a lot of people use Champagne yeast; it works great and is

very robust, gives very consistent results.  But it will invariably produce

a completely dry cider, because the yeast will consume very last molecule

of sugar.  Some people don't like that, and use a weaker yeast, like an ale

yeast. But some people don't like the flavours produced by ale yeasts, so...


Good Luck!




Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:08:06 -0500

From: margali <margali at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: non-member submission - Re: SC - Cider Sauce Experiments


Hey, Puck uses a cleaned garbage diaposal to grind up apples for


amazing what you can learn about people's habits on the sca distilling

list ;-0


[but it pressed out rather nicely, he was handing a bota around with

some at Simple Fare this past fall.]



Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:03:22 -0700 (PDT)

From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT:scrumpy (was ...Ireland)


> I've never seen this "scrumpy" here. Has anyone else?

> I wish there were more ciders available here.

> Stefan li Rous


Try ordering it from http://www.ciderbrandy.co.uk/

Four liters of scrumpy for =A34.70 +shipping.

I've never ordered from them personally do I can't make a comment on their services.

/Angus, the Swedish penguin.



From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Upcoming Menu

Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 08:24:56 +0100


>Second question, is apple cider period?  How about hard cider?


Alcoholic cider is very pre period. The vikings had it as did the

saxons....presses have been found.

They had weight presses...no screws, and you can drink the apple juice as it

comes out. If you leave it for 24 hours it clears and if you leave it sealed

for a year you have cider.





Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 22:27:38 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cider


Here are a few sources for more on cider and the USA.


As to definitions, John Mariani in The Encyclopedia of

American Food and Drink, 1999 seems to indicate that the

term cider was used for either  "hard" or "sweet" cider,

with the terms hard or sweet being added to denote which type.

He says that it lost popularity in America as beer became

more popular in the 19th century. Peter J. Hatch in The

Fruits and Fruit Trees of Monticello (Univ. Press of Virginia,

1998) has a great deal to say about apples and cider. He goes

so far as to indicate that sweet cider was the Coca-Cola of

Colonial America. Hard Cider might be thought of as the beer;

together both ciders were the national beverage of America by the

1820's. Jefferson was of course much into cider production.

Sandy Oliver's Saltwater Foodways and Sanborn Brown's Wines and Beers

of Old New England talk about cider in early and later colonial New

England. Brown notes that even colonial "hard" would not have been

all that alcoholic a drink unless  honey or sugar was added to boost the

sugar content. Otherwise it was fairly dry apparently.


There are two other books I should mention for those wanting to

pursue the study of cider.

Cider, Hard and Sweet : History, Traditions,

and Making Your Own by Ben Watson, 1999


Cider : Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider

by Annie Proulx,  and Lew Nichols. 2nd ed. 1997


Also See:http://www.cidermuseum.co.uk/ for the traditional cider museum

at Hereford, England. (It's worth a stop if you're ever in that part of

the country.)


Johnnae llyn Lewis



Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:19:21 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cider


Here is another source on cider and perry.


Davies, Stuart. "'Vinetum Britannicum': Cider and Perry in

the Seventeenth Century". Liquid Nourishment. Series: Food and Society, edited by C. Anne Wilson.[papers from the 5th Leeds Symposium, 1990]

Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1993. pages 79-105.


Johnnae llyn Lewis



From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:36:47 -0400 (EDT)

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cider


> Non-Alcoholic stuff is called apple juice and if you get the real thing it

> is lovely, not processed in packets from the supermarket, but freshly

> sqeezed/pressed and bottled for drinking.


The OED includes one period quote that indicates that 'new cider' was a

term used:

"1576 FOXE A. & M. I. 260/1 This ague he [K. John] also encreased..by

eating Peaches and drinking of new Ciser, or as we call it Sider."


Despite the OED's definition, I wonder if 'new' means 'unfermented' or

just 'this year's'?


Other quotes seem to indicate that the term 'cider' was being used

interchangeably with juice:


"1663 BOYLE Usefulness Exper. Philos. II. 175 'Tis known, that

Sydar, Perry, and other Juyces of Fruits, will afford such a spirit. 1708

J. PHILIPS Cyder 11, My mill Now grinds choice apples and the

British vats O'erflow with generous cider."


In other words, the term 'cider' was applied from the moment of pressing,

whether or not the stuff was previously fermented-- which is the U.S.



-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa



Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:20:20 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cider quotations


Here are some more cider quotations that predate those provided

by Jadwiga.


c1475(c1445) Pecock Donet (Bod 916)   137/22:

It were forboden to hem forto drinke ale or sydir or whey or

eny o=FEire drynkeable =FEing of lasse delicacye =FEan is wyne.


a1500(c1477) Norton OAlch.(Add 10302)   2304:

Liquour is in many maners fownde Owte of thingis that be

on grownde: Som bi cuttynge, as terebentyne, Som with

pressinge, as sydyre and wyne.


These come from the Middle English Dictionary which also has

a number of quotes starting in 1375 that keep saying...

what this quote from (c1384) says:

WBible(1) (Dc 369(2))   Luke 1.15:

He schal not drynke wyn and sydir [vrr. cyser, cyther].

Apparently not drinking wine or cider was quite noteworthy.


Johnna Holloway



From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:02:57 -0400 (EDT)

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cider


> Moving on to the encyclopedias, Britannica and one other said that

> cider being a non-alcoholic beverage is a North American usage, as

> contrasted with European usage where it's alcoholic.


Direct quote:


"In most European countries the name is restricted to fermented juice. In

North America, the freshly expressed juice that has not been subjected to

any permanent preservative treatment is generally called sweet cider,

whereas juice that has been permitted to undergo some natural fermentation

is designated hard cider. The expressed juice of apples that has been

treated by some method to prevent spoilage while in hermetically sealed

cans or bottles is marketed as apple juice in most countries. "


-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa



Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 03:05:46 -0500

From: "Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Mock Apple Pie?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Also sprach Stefan li Rous:

> And on a more medieval note, were apples not exported from the apple

> growing areas in Europe to other parts during the Middle Ages? Or

> even cider? Wine did get exported from France to England, was

> English cider not shipped the other direction?


Apples, if you can go by the art and literature, seem to be pretty

ubiquitous in medieval Europe. As 'Lainie stated, there wouldn't be

much reason for non-local trade, and then there's the fact that an

ocean voyage is notorious for screwing up unstable, fermented

beverages. Not all wines are up to it, and special beers and ales had

to be developed (things like Brunswick mum in the seventeenth

century, and India Pale Ale and Russian Imperial Stout in the

eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, respectively) for shipping, so I

wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of cider went bad under

ship-board conditions, unless it was distilled or something.





From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Mock Apple Pie?

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:38:39 -0600


>> And on a more medieval note, were apples not exported from the apple

>> growing areas in Europe to other parts during the Middle Ages? Or even

>> cider? Wine did get exported from France to England, was English

>> cider not shipped the other direction?

> There was plenty of cider in Normandy and Anjou.Why import it?

> 'Lainie


And while I don't have a clue as to the quality of Normandy cider, it is the

base for Calvados, an apple brandy, which is (and probably was in late SCA

period) more widely exported than any equivalent English apple product.





Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:43:17 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Stefan finally succeeds in making cider

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Also sprach Craig Jones:

> My best recipe involves pasteurized apple juice, a kilo or two of honey

> boiled in a little water (just enough to make a syrup), some citric and

> malic acid to make the apple juice tarter (cider apple juice is tarter

> than normal commercial apple juice), some cassia bark (works better than

> cinnamon - a more perfumed aroma I find), the yeast and nutrient...

> My household demands regular kegs of the stuff...


Sounds loverly! Giulielma Penn (Mrs. William Penn) has, in her 1694

receipt book, a recipe for apple ale which is pretty darned

unbeatable, too. It's a pretty basic infusion-mash ale (as I recall

it is lightly hopped), but calls for apple juice instead of water.

The couple of times I made it, the filtered, pasteurized apple juice

worked beautifully. I suspect one'd have to watch out for chemicals

designed to prevent yeast growth, if such a thing were added, but

I've been lucky every time so far.





Date: Wed,  5 Jan 2005 10:46:06 -0500

From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stefan finally succeeds in making cider

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


> One thing to consider is that a commercial (supermarket)

> cider will include a preservative.


This is not always true...

Supermarkets nearly always get their ciders from local suppliers when


The use of preservatives is controlled on a state by state basis.


Here in Connecticut, for example, it is commonly sold pasteurized

without preservatives (though some supermarkets wind up importing cider

form other states as they run bare -usually about spring.

Local Cider warehousing here is done by freezing the fresh juice, and

it generally thaws in the truck to market. Our Local Shaws is

ciurrently selling pasteurized witout preservatives.


In NY state, you cant even get it at the roadside stands without the

preservatives added.


> Check with a cider mill about getting cider without _any_

> preservative.  This could be very difficult as I understand

> some mills add the preserving agent to the _apples_ before

> crushing them to mash.  i.e. a complete equipment washdown

> in _advance_ of crushing might be needed to eliminate it.


Local health codes may also apply to this, as well, so Cidermills may

be unwilling to risk their health certs and closure for the sale of a

dozen or so (or less) gallons of unadulterated juice.


In this case you might consider pressing your own cider.


It can be done using some basic gear that will set you back about a

hundred dollars or so. (plus the cost of a food mill or food processor)


You need:

4 clean 2x4s 18 inches in length (not pressure treated or painted)

4 clean 2x4s 22.5 inches in length (not pressure treated or painted)

A clean piece of 3/4 plywood 2 foot square (you can get these off the

shelf at your local home store)

Three food grade buckets (such as brewing buckets)

10 Bricks

Heavy Duty Aluminum foil

12 Stainless wood screws #12 X 1 1/2

Cheese Cloth



tools you need

Screwdriver for screws


1/8 drill bit

3/8 drill bit

1 1/2 inch Hole saw



1) drill three 1/8 holes 3/4 of an inch in from each edge of the plywood

2) Align the 4 clean 22.5 inch 2x4s around the edges of the plywood.

One end of each 2x4 will fit all the way over to each corner.

3) Screw the 2x4's in place using screws through the pilot holes in the


4) Using the Hole Saw and the drill cut 1 1/2 inch hole throughte


5) Take one bucket and perforate the bottom and up the sides for four

inches with the drill and a 3/8 drill bit


You are ready to go


To use:

1) Place the tray squarely on top of one of the buckets.

2) Make a small "funnel" with foil and place it through the center hole

of the tray, pressing down flat any foil that is above the surface.

3) Line the tray with Foil, making sure to overlay in such a way as to

fully cover all the inside surfaces with foil. using a sharp knife,

make a small "x" through the hole in the center and push the foil

through to fully open the hole (being careful not to damage the


4) Tightly cover two of the remaining 2x4's with foil and place them

about 6 inches apart on either side of the hole

5) Set the perforated bucked on these two by fours.

6) Line the perforated bucket with Cheese cloth

7) Proceed to coarsely grind or mill your apples (a turn or two in the

food processor is sufficient), placing the resultant mush in the cheese

cloth lined bucket.

8) When you have filled the bucket about halfway, fold the cheese cloth

over the top, Laying on another piece if necessary to cover the mush.

9) Put the third bucket into the perforated bucket.

10) Tightly cover the bricks with foil and carefully place them one at

a time into the bucket.

11) When the juice stops running out, remove the spent "cheese" and



Repeat the process until you have enough.

I'd strongly consider taking the cider to 180 degrees for 10 minutes at

least to kill some of the wierder wild microflora that might be a

concern, especially if you do a lot of baking in the house.

Sulfites, if you can stand them, are a good thing too as apples tend to

harbor a lot of wild yeasts and bacteria.


You can also use this process and Anjou pears to make a nice Perry,

Which is also very good.


Wyeast makes a very nice "cider" yeast, that does not obliterate the

fruit flavors.


Capt Elias

-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas



Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:57:51 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Mrs. Penn's Apple Beer...

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org


Hullo, the list!


Sorry if I presume, but since a couple of people very quickly asked

for the recipe privately once I mentioned it on this list, I figured

I'd post it here, even though it is more or less OOP.


From "Penn Family Recipes," copyright Evelyn Abraham Benson 1966,

pub. George Shumway, York, PA:


"[Apple beer]



stamp apels and strain them as usuly for Cyder,

then take the Liquor and warm it

and put it upon the malt,

then when it is Com throu boyle it,

and then worke it Like other bere,

when it is put into vesells put 3 pound of hard suger

in to the quantaty of an hogsheed,

a few hops should bee boyled in it --"


I'll have to see if I can find my working notes for this recipe, but

as I say, between the fact that the recipe says to strain the cider

and the modern obsession with clear beers (this was years ago and I

still cared about stuff like that then), it worked quite well using

the filtered stuff.





Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:26:08 -0800 (PST)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mrs. Penn's Apple Beer...

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Stefan enquired:

> What is the volume of a hogshead?


A hogshead is a unit of volume for alcoholic

beverages in the imperial system. A hogshead of

wine is 63 gallons. A hoghead of beer or ale is

54 gallons.





Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:11:14 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Hogshead was Mrs. Penn's Apple Beer...

To: "Cooks withinthe SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


A hogshead is a measure of volume for liquids.  It was equivalent to 48

gallon of ale, 54 gallons of beer, 60 gallons of cider, 63 gallons of oil,

honey or wine, or 100 gallons of molasses.  These are not Imperial gallons,

but the traditional British gallon which is equivalent to the U.S. gallon.

The U.S. currently defines the hogshead as 2 barrels or 63 gallons.  the

U.S. hogshead measures 14553 cubic inches or about 8.422 cubic feet (238.48

liters). In Imperial measure it is 1/2 butt or 52.5 Imperial gallons, being

8.429 cubic inches (238.67 liters).  The modern US and Imperoal hogsheads

are functionally equivalent.


Mrs. Penn's hogshead is probably 54 gallons.




> Awk! My first thought was that I've seen 15th and 16th Century recipes

> which were more understandable. But after re-reading it a couple of times

> it is clearer. "put it upon the malt" must mean pour it through malted

> grain. Lots of figuring out still to do, like "worke it like other bere".

> What is the volume of a hogshead?

> Stefan



Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:26:54 -0500

From: "Barbara G. Dodge" <awench1 at cox.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hard Cider Question

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


>> Just came back from the local grocery, Publix, here in Tallahassee

>> Florida. The hard ciders they offer are Strongbow and Woodpecker from

>>>> England, Woodchuck from Vermont, and Hornsby.  Woodchuck on the shelf

>>>> was amber, Granny Smith variental, and third choice I don't recall.  I

>> seem >>to recall an opinion aside from the fact that Hornsby is the

>> cheapest.


>> Daniel


I have had the opportunity to drink all of the mentioned brands.  My

favorite of all time was Strongbow, however, I have not been able to find it

in my area (southeastern Virginia).


In lieu of Strongbow, I like Cider Jack.  If you can find it where you live,

I highly recommend it.


Of the others mentioned, Woodchuck is the only one I would willingly drink,

and really the best of their varieties would be the Dark and Dry if



These are of course my personal opinions.  Only you and your taste buds can

determine what is most to your liking.





Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:33:42 -0500

From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouw at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hard Cider Question

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Of the ones you listed I have experience with Woodchuck, Woodpecker and

Hornsby. I greatly like Woodpecker.  To my (and my taste buds), it has a

pleasant, clean taste.  Hornsby is too close to jet fuel or some sort of

chemical by-product to suit my taste.  I don't remember much about

Woodchuck, so it must have been pretty, well unmemorable.  Of course,

people's tastes and preferences are too subjective, so YMMV.


Mairi Ceilidh



Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:52:10 -0500

From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hard Cider Questin

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


It depends on what you like. I have tried all of these. The English ones are

more "traditional" n flavor, but where I live they are expensive. Woodchuck

has a number of varieties, ranging from relatively sweet (Amber) to quite

dry. The Granny Smith variety is most to my personal taste. I do not like



If you can find them, Hard Core and Ace both make good ciders. Ace also

makes a pear-flavored cider.





Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:29:50 -0500

From: "Ruth Tannahill" <rtanhil at fast.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] cider

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Cadoc wrote:

> I am a fan of woodchuck, but I like any good cider.


If it's available in your area, see if you can find Magner's cider. If you

do find it and the price doesn't drive you off, pour it into a clear glass,

because it has the most gorgeous rosy gold color. Fabulous. I find Hard Core

and Ace a bit sweet for my palate. I also like Woodchuck (any flavor,

really). Hornsby's OK, but tastes a bit flat.


> Does anyone else get blistering headaches while drinking cider?

> It doesn't happen all the time....just once in a while...

> Do they have sulfites in them?


Yes, to both questions. Cider is loaded with both natural and added

sulfites. And I sometimes get blinding headaches from it (which last all

day, and only go away with a combination of aspirin and benadryl--spell it

however you want). The amount of cider seems to have little bearing on

whether or not I get the headache. Half a bottle or 4 full ones, if I'm

going to get a headache, I'm going to get a headache. But I get the same

effect from apple juice. Sometimes headache, more often, not.


Were you ever allergic to apples? I was as a small child (but not now). That

might have something to do with it.





Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:04:12 -0500

From: "Daniel  Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-ooks] Hard Cider Question

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Ok all of the hard ciders mentioned the consensus, as I'm reading it, is in

a ranking as follows:


1. Top of the nationally available brands  Strongbow & Woodpecker

   of the local/regional brands Cider Jack, Hard Core, Ace and Magner's


2. Middle of the nationally available brands Woodchuck, Dark & Dry

   of the local/egionalbrands Kelly Ale/Beer


3. Bottom of the nationally available brands Hornsby


Does anyone have any further comments or additions aside from the fact that

Woodchuck also does an Amber (sweet) and a Pear?





Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:55:57 -0500

From: "Terri Morgan" <nothingbutadame at inthe.sca.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Hard Cider Question

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>



> Does anyone have any further comments or additions

> aside from the fact that Woodchuck also does an

> Amber (sweet) and a Pear?

> Daniel


If you get a chance to try it (and also like the fruit), Woodchuck's "Granny Smith" cider is very tasty. And sometimes fun to mix half-and-half with the






Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:01:58 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Making verjuice

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


> How do you make verjuice from crabapples?  I might actually

> have enough this year to harvest, and don't have any recipes

> (not even for crabapple jelly!).


Crabapples make a really good hard cider, but you make it

like a wine, and you have to give it enough time for the "secondary  

fermatation" where the (extremely tart)

malic acid is converted to (not so tart) lactic acid and CO2.

This is REALLY necessary for Crab Apples as they have a

much higher amount of malic acid to begin with.

I have a tree in my yard that has some very very good

cidering crab apples, they are red fleshed and about

the size of a baby's fist.


Alas the tree was sadly neglected before I moved in, and

so it is infested with a number of parasites, and I don’t

want to use the fruit. I am trying to grow cultivars, but

so far I have not got the knack of grafting the tree onto

new pure root stock. I will try growing from seed this year.


Most brew stores sell malo-lactic cultures, and good

yeasts suitable for cider. Or you can get them on line.

Wye labs (Wyeast brand) sells one that is specific to an

english type cider, but I have found my best results come

from Montrachet or Champagne yeast, though they are

trickier to use since they use up sugar at a slightly

different rate.


You can usually rent a crusher at the local brew store

or pulse them through the food processor, and you can

make a cider press out of three food safe buckets, a

couple of two by fours, soem foil and some cheese cloth.

  - drill a bunch of 1/4 holes in the bottom third of one

of the buckets, put one bucket (the reciever) on the

ground (this may get messy, so make sure it is a floor

you can mop or do it outside). Cover two pieces of two

by four, each 18 inches long, with foil, and place on

top of the reciever. put the perforated bucket on top

of the 2x4s centered over the reciever. line the

perforated bucket with cheese cloth and start spooning

in the mashed apples until it is half full, and fold

over the cheese cloth to cover. Place the third bucket

inside the perforated bucket and push down to squeeze

out the cider.


There are ways to improve the yield and cut down on the

mess, but this is the fastest and cheapest way to get

the squeezin's.


If you do want to improve the system, take a 2X2 sheet

of 3/4 inch plywood, with a 3 inch hole in the center,

and 2x4s around the edges as a rim, and line it all with

foil. Put this on the reciever bucket, and put the foil

wrapped 2x4's on either side of the hole. then proceed

as above. Foil wrapped bricks inside the pressming

buckets will make the pressing easier, and it's less

likely to knock the whole affair over, which physically

leaning onto it can do.

If you want really good stability, make legs or small

sawhorses for the plywood to rest on, instead of the

reciever bucket. I recommend this strongly.


Capt Elias

Dragonship Haven, East

(Stratford, CT, USA)

Apprentice in the House of Silverwing



Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:58:12 +0100

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apple cider

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Am Freitag, 11. November 2005 04:06 schrieb Robin:

> Sheila McClune wrote:

>> Is apple cider period? How about mulled cider?


>> Arwen

>> Outlands


> Hard cider is certainly period.  I don't know if sweet (non-alcoholic)

> cider is period.


As a cooking ingredient it is - at least in Germany. It features in  

sauce in the Königsberg MS. But I can't prove anyone drank it ATM.





Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:36:38 -0000

From: "Christina Nevin" <cnevin at caci.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [SCA-cooks] Apple cider

To: "SCA-Cooks \(E-mail\)" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Yes, it is medieval. The Normans in particular gave a boost to the  

apple industry in England in the twelfth century, and introduced  

firstly the importation and then the manufacture of cider in huge  

amounts. The history of cider in England - which even included a  

rebellion in 1524! - is a fascinating study of itself.


The first record of a specific apple variety in England occurs in  

1204, when 200 Pearmain apples [later Old English Pearmain] and 4  

hogsheads of Pearmain cider constituted part of a tax from the manor  

of Runham in the county of Norfolk.


Sorry, but I'm uncertain about mulled cider.






Baronessa Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia

Thamesreach Shire, Drachenwald

aka Tina Nevin, London, UK



Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:13:47 -0500

From: Robin <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apple cider

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Volker Bach wrote:

>> Hard cider is certainly period.  I don't know if sweet (non-

>> alcoholic) cider is period.

> As a cooking ingredient it is - at least in Germany. It features in  

> sauce in the Königsberg MS. But I can't prove anyone drank it ATM.

> Giano


Likewise, there is a recipe for a sauce made with apple juice and spices

in Granado (1599).  Alonso de Herrera's agricultural manual (1551 ed.)

has a section on apple trees.  He says that wine made from apples is

called cider, and that they make a lot of it in Vizcaya (region of

northern Spain).  It is a beverage that quenches thirst well.  He also

comments that sour apples can be used to make vinegar.  No mention of

drinking the unfermented juice.


I can't see that it would be a practical beverage.  Unpasturized apple

juice doesn't last long without spoiling or fermenting.  There are

descriptions of keeping apples, packed in straw, in a cool place, but

apples are not a good choice for juicing in small quantities.


There are descriptions of spiced honey-water, if someone is looking for

a spiced non-alcoholic beverage, but it is intended to be served cold,

in the summer.


Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom



Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 09:55:27 +0100

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] An interesting proposal...

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Am Sonntag, 19. Februar 2006 03:20 schrieb otsisto:

> Brainstormin' here

> Apple cider. not sure if period but apples are.


Gretman literature as far back as the 13th c knows something called

"epfeldranc/epheldranc" which translates as 'apple drink'. This is usually

assumed to have been a form of fermented cider. Unfortunately, no recipes I

am aware of survive, and interestingly, by the later 15th century (when we

get instructions) the fermented beverage made from apples is known as 'apple

wine'. The only recipe for any 'dranc' that I know of makes a syrup.


Make of it what you will, but apples used for making *some* kind of beverage

are period. I'm guessing it's fermented.





From: Lucia Piazetta <luciapiazetta at earthlink.net>

Date: February 27, 2006 7:06:12 AM CST

To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cider yeast


From: james at crouchet.com

<<< What is a good yeast for making hard cider? I assume someone here will



CD >>>


Greetings Dore!

English style ale yeasts work well for ciders, and I've had a few recommended by the homebrew shops that worked well.  Wyeast has one called "London III", which I have used a lot.  I think it is now only available in a "smack pack", which I'm not overly fond of.   I recently switched to a dry yeast I like a lot better for ciders by Danstar called "Nottingham".  I think the cider tastes better and less yeasty.  Lots of fruity overtones, and a pretty quick fermenter.





From: "Dr. C. M. Helm-Clark Ph.D." <cat at rocks4brains.com>

Date: December 11, 2007 8:26:07 PM CST

To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] question for brewers


Apples for cider:


Having grown up surrounded by apple orchards (including

the one on my Godparents' farm), this is something I

actually know something about.  First you need to know

your North American climate zone.  Easy to find: go to

the USDA Nation Arboretum site and use the clickable

climate zone map



Next, you want juicers or dessert apples to make the

best cider, so this should guide your picking what sort

of trees to plant. People who make cider for a living

will tell you that you the best ciders are blends,

whether you are making hard cider (aka cider in Europe)

or "traditional" American soft cider (aka murky apple

juice with unfiltered pulp, complete with pectin cloud,

usually sold unpasturized at the orchard or cider press).


Given that you are trying to recreate a period European

fermented cider, consider planting some crab apple

trees to get the acidic and somewhat bitter verjus

type flavors that the cider producers go for, a taste

that is somewhat sharper and tarter than the norm

for the Great American Sweet Tooth.  Plant some Italian

varieties of white grapes, and with the grapes and

crab apples, you could have a nice sideline of verjus too,

which will make your SCA medieval foodies and fellow

cooking fiends very happy campers (there are three,

count them, THREE sellers of commercial verjus in the

USA last time I looked, since as a determined SCA

foodie, I chase down verjus for those neglected 15th

century dishes that call for it in the sauces...and no,

vinegar is NOT an acceptable substitute for the real



Anyway, back on topic here: you're going to have a real

chore on your hands finding antique varieties that were

grown in period that will be good cider apples and will

withstand the reduced chill factors in Ansteorra. In

your shoes, I think I might try a Gravenstein.  It's a

very old apple from the Lowlands and Germany. It's also a

major production apple in California which shares many of

the same climate zones and chill factors as most or Texas.

Oklahoma will be even more hospitable (but check those

chill factors as you go more west since there are very few

suitable apples for juice that can stand chill factors of

500 hours or less).


Though not period, an Arkansas Black may be about perfect

for you: a good southern US variety that is good for juice.

Make sure that whatever varieties you decide upon have over-

lapping blooming seasons and nonsterile pollens (a big issue

for apple orchards). Consult your local farm bureau or USDA

or county extension office for details on the chill factor

map of your local area (get a map on a local scale since

lake and river effects and terrane effects affect micro-

climates which can cause large local variations in the chill



There are come non-profits and specialties orchards that

specialize in antique varieties that will be happy to help

you out.  One place I have found to be very helpful is

"Trees of Antiquity" in Paso Robles, Calfiornia (to whom I

have no connection other than drolling over their catalog

and sometimes picking their brains via email).  Willis

Orchard in Georgia has a good rep, so say my friends at

Bolton Orchard, one of my two favorite orchards in the

foothills apple belt in CA - and they know about apples

varieties more suited to southern climes (rather than all

New England apples I grew up with). As weird as this sounds,

you might want to look into the new apple varieties that have

been invented in the last half century in Israel. There are

now two or three Israeli apples available in the USA that

are specifically adapted to short chill factors and warm

climate zones, which are still really decent apples, like

the Ein Shemer, which I ran into last year at an orchard in

southern Utah on my way home from Estrella.  I don't know if

any of the Israeli varieties are specifically juicers, but

you may want to look into it.


Also check out the Slow Food International webpages for

lists of heritage apple varieties in different countries.

(You'll have to dig - it's not the easier site to find

stuff on unfortunately, but they have a great comprehensive

list of heritage apples for the USA and lists of heritage

veggies by state too - a good but often frustrating site).

Most of the English varieties aren't going to do well in

southern Ansteorran climes, those several would probably

survive in the nothern and western locales.  But heritage

varieties from southern Europe may be a possibility,

assuming, of course, you could actually get then here (if

you don't already know, importing agricultural flora to this

country is slightly more difficult than getting a tourist

visa for an ayatollah from Iran...getting simple, easy to

use, quick to fill out and meaningful income tax reform out

of Congress would be easier... ;-)  I suspect it will be

more practical and easier to identify good juicer varieties

suited to the local climate (zone 8 +/- zones, chill factor

tolerance of 300 to 500 hours) regardless of origin than

to be able to find antique varieties with known legacies

back to the Middle Ages that are available here and will

survive in Ansteorra.  Last, you probably want to check out

the bookstore at permaculture.org.uk (NOT permaculture.org

which is a different bunch in New Mexico). The permaculture

folks in England are all about apples - worth a visit for

any ciderphile.


I hope this is helpful to you. Apples are one of my few

real passions in life.  (Now that I've been reminded of

apples, it must be time to go indulge myself on my very

last Connecticut macintosh of the year...***sigh***)


and now I will go back to lurking...



(who grew up stealing spys and tolmans and macs out of the

neighbors' apple trees...)



From: Eadric Anstapa <eadric at scabrewer.com>

Date: December 11, 2007 10:47:37 PM CST

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] question for brewers


Dave Wise wrote:

> Any recommendations for particular apples to grow for eventually  

> turning

> into a hard cider?  Have some land near Brenham and wanted to plant a

> few trees, so figured I might as well produce something useful.

> Alexis


Since you asked for help from brewers I am going t assume that you are

looking at a making a European style hard cider.  I did some research on

this a few years ago.  I have spent less time researching apple

varieties than I did vineyard grape varieties but I did find some good

information. You have to get low chill varieties to grow decent apple

crops here.


The best hard cider apples are more tannic and not really good for

eating and have characteristics and flavors that only develop after

fermentation or that help produce a good ferment.  This is very similar

to the way that the best wine grapes are usually not good table grapes.

I have personally made some of the most insipid, bland, featureless

cider with apples that were great eating apples.  The best ciders are

usually made of a blend of various apple varieties.  Ideally for a good

cider you want a mix of sweet apples, bittersweet apples, and sharp  



Most apples require another variety to pollinate with, some pollinate

better with some varieties than they do with others.  Some varieties

don't produce viable pollen, others are triploid varieties that are

limited to what they can cross pollinate with.  Obviously for your trees

to be pollinated by another variety both have to be blooming at the same

time so an early blooming and late blooming variety aren't a good match

as cross pollinators. Make sure you check to see what other varieties

the trees you plant will pollinate with.


You should consider planting a crabapple as a pollinator as crab apples

are always good pollinators and their fruit can lend nice character to a

cider. There are some crabapples that just bloom and bloom and bloom so

they are good pollinators for early and late blooming varieties.   There

are also some sweet crabapples that aren't bad to eat and in addition to

being good for cider they are good for pies and salads and jellies.  The

thing about crabs is that they never get very big.


You should also consider varieties that ripen about the same time so

your picking and pressing isn't spread out over three months (unless

thats what ya want).


Since this is an SCA list the first variety I'll mention will be a

period apple variety.


"White Winter Pearmain" is a classic old English variety from Norman

times that dates back at least to the 13th century.  It is the oldest

known English apple variety.  Despite being from England is is

classified as a low chill variety that will bear here and produces a

good cider.  A lot like the modern Granny Smith.  I want to plant a

couple of these trees myself.


"Foxwhelp" is another classic English Variety that will grow here.  It's

really a classic great variety almost entirely dedicated for cider and

may also be a period variety.  It dates back to at least the early

1600's. Another variety I want to plant myself.


"Lady' is a classic French cider variety that can also be traced back

to SCA period times and should grow here.  A third Variety I want to  



"Dorset Golden" originated in the Bahamas and will grow here and makes

good cider.  You can actually find it in commercial nurseries and home

centers around here.  The dedicated local nurseries around here could

probably order it for ya.  It is supposedly a terrific producer.  The

final variety I want to plant.


"Freyburg" grows here and makes a good cider.


"Horse" makes a good cider and is the apple variety that you might

likely find at old homesteads across the south.


The "Golden Russet" is the classic American cider variety and will grow



"Red Boskoop" can be used for Cider and will grow here.


I wouldn't overlook the Granny Smith Apple which can make decent cider,

is self fertile, and a good producer. Of course you can get these trees

at a local nursery or home center.


I have heard that the "Prairie Spy" variety grows well here and can make

decent cider.


I would suggest you email to Kuffelcreek  Nursery in southern CA as they

specialize in  benchgrafted  warm climate  heirloom varieties and are

very helpful folks.  http://www.kuffelcreek.com/applenursery.htm


Also talk to the folks at Big Horse Creek Farm.



And talk to the folks at Trees of Antiquity.  They have a great website

and sell some larger trees rather than just just benchgrafts or whips.

Search their site for "cider" and then read the varieties they suggest.

Then contact them and ask which they think will grow best in our climate

and soil.



In general a bushel of apples will net ya 2 to 3 gallons of juice.  A

dwarf tree will give ya about a bushel of apples at full production, a

semi-dwarf tree 4-5 bushels, standard trees 5+ bushels depending on how

big they get.


Dont overlook planting some pears.  Pears live to a long age as well,

can grow as stately as oak trees, they require less chill time than

apples, and you can make "perry" or pear cider.  Pears are however

almost never self fertile.  I love pears and perry.





Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:49:12 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Boiled Cider/Is there a medieval counterpart?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


I just ran a search in EEBO-TCP using the term boil near cider.

This turns up 2 books that feature paragraphs where

the treatment of cider barrels are being discussed. One is advised

for instance in 1670 to boil water and treat your barrels before

putting up cider. Or boil pepper or mustard and use the concoction to prevent

muddy cider. Boiling cider seems to have been used to make cider keep better.

Unboiled cider might keep for a year. Boiled cider might keep for two.

It's noted that


"If you boil your Cider, special care is to be had, That you put it into

the furnace immediately from the Wring; otherwise, if it be -et stand in

Vats or Vessels two or three days after the pressure, the best, and most

spirituous part will ascend, and vapour away when the fire is put under

it; and the longer the boiling continues, the less of goodness, or

virtue will be left remaining in the Cider.

My Distillations sufficiently instruct me, That the same Liquor which

(after fermentation hath pass'd upon it) yields a plentiful quantity of

spirit, drawn off unfermented, yields nothing at all of spirit. And upon

the same account it is undoubtedly certain, That Ciderboil'd immediately

from the Wring, hath its spirits comprest, and drawn into a narrower

compass, which are for the most part wash'd and evaporated by late

unseasonable boiling."


This from Pomona, or, An appendix concerning fruit-trees in relation to

cider the making and several ways of ordering it. by

John Evelyn, 1670. The advice also appears in Sylva, or, A discourse of

forest-trees which is published the same year by Evelyn.


This is not of course cider boiled down into a syrup and used as a sweetener.

I suspect that boiled cider came into use in the American colonies as a

substitute for hard to get sugar.




aoife at cableone.net wrote:

snipped Boiled cider (cider boiled down to a syrup)

has been used as a sweetener for a long time but was there a medieval

equivalent? snipped




Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:55:30 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Boiled Cider/Is there a medieval counterpart?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


There is a sauce in Granado (Spanish, 1599) that is fresh apple cider

boiled-down with spices, wine, sugar, and vinegar.  The recipe doesn't

indicate what it's used for, but (not surprisingly), it goes well with



The translated recipe and a redaction are on my website:



Brighid ni Chiarain



Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:40:48 -0400

From: "tudorpot at gmail.com" <tudorpot at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


On Oct 29, 2008, at 9:28 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

> I may have found Blackthorne in the Pennsic area


Blackthorne is available in Ontario- my favourite. Another one I like  

is Murphy's. Strongbow is tolerable, but too sweet for my taste. I've  

had Cornish cider and it is quite dry.





Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:25:32 +0100

From: "Susanne Mayer" <susanne.mayer5 at chello.at>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] historic apples cider

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


here in Austria cider or something similar to it: Most is made from a

special mostly inedible variety  at least the not modern variants (I tried

the as a child) of very small and

very tart  (even if ripe) apple. Although there are nowadays more than one

variety the term Mostapfel goes at least back to a book from the 18th cent.

The same goes for pears.


Well our garden in Carinthia supplies (every 2nd year) at least 7 or 8

varieties of apples among them russets or as someone supplied. Leather apples

(the name I know for them), Bellefleur (I have NO idea how old they are, the

trees are between 100 and 60 years old only one is just 3 or 4 years old,

Kronprinz Rudolph (probably from the 19th cent), a small, red,  very tasty

apple we only call Nikolo apple as the best time to eat it is around the 6th

of December.


For most of these apples we do not even know the names any more.





Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:05:15 -0400

From: Craig Daniel <teucer at pobox.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cider


On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Ian Kusz <sprucebranch at gmail.com> wrote:

> Where does the word "cider" come from?


From the French <cidre>, which is from Latin and cognate with Spanish

<sidra>. The Latin is <sicere> "strong drink," which doesn't explain

the d showing up in French and Latin; presumably there was a late

vulgar latin variant that I'm not aware of that developed into those



Google tells me that <sicere> is a loanword from Hebrew, used to

translate Biblical references to alcohol.


- Jaume



Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:17:26 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cider


<<< Google tells me that <sicere> is a loanword from Hebrew, used to

translate Biblical references to alcohol.


- Jaume >>>


The quick ref says it's Late Latin which would make the word 3rd to 7th

Century from the original Hebrew by way of the Greek "sikera."




<the end>

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