Stefan's Florilegium

peas-msg

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peas-msg - 1/10/03

Period peas. Pea broth. Recipes.

NOTE: See also the files: beans-msg, vegetables-msg, vegetarian-msg, salads-msg,
seeds-msg, soup-msg, grains-msg, bread-msg.

************************************************************************
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mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org
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--------
Peas pies hot
Peas pies cold
Peas pies recipe
Please be told!

- Doc (who's codeine is working really well now)
Daniel Myers <doc@medievalcookery.com>
---------

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:56:59 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

Dottie Elliott wrote:
> In a related question, what kind of pea is meant when a recipe calls for
> peas? Many of the recipes call for a green or grene pea. However some
> just mention peas. Is this the standard green peas I buy canned/frozen
> today, some of the brown peas I can buy canned or something entirely
> different?

There's a standard white pea that is still eaten across Northern Europe.
They look a little like blackeyed peas without the eye, and are just a
bit rounder. I don't know the botanical name offhand. It's doubtless in
Harold McGee. Green peas are the fresh, new variety of this pea, as
opposed to the dried form.

They represent one out of a total of four known varieties of legume
found in Medieval Europe, the others being favas, chick peas, and
lentils.

Adamantius

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 08:52:31 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

david friedman wrote:
> At 12:56 AM -0400 6/7/97, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
> >Dottie Elliott wrote:
>
> Green peas are the fresh, new variety of this pea, as
> >opposed to the dried form.
>
> I'm not certain, but my memory of McGee's discussion was that our green pea
> was a variant of the old world pea which was harvested immature. I don't
> think it was clear when its use started. I believe the modern term for the
> non-green version is "field pea," but I could easily be wrong.
>
> David/Cariadoc
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Sorry! I may have caused some confusion: what I should have said that
what is referred to as green peas in period recipes is the fresh, new
variety of this pea, etc. I understand our standard modern green pea was
developed in France in the 17th-18th century or so...

As regards field peas, it had been my understanding that they are the
same thing as cow peas, and, again, similar to the black-eyed pea, and
that they came to places like the Carribean and the American South via
Africa. Whether they are indigenous to Africa or came from South America
with the Rest of The Usual Suspects I don't know offhand. That would be
kind of an interesting line to pursue.

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:11:49 -0400
From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <ceridwen@commnections.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet

Yep, I have Gerard's... and we did discuss this a few months back, but
anyway, here goes.
Gerard states that there are 9 kinds of "kidney bean" known to him (and
quotes from other sources as well). These include some from India,
Egypt, and Brazil, as well as those grown in earlier times in the
Mediterranean. His illustrations resemble our lima bean far more than a
kidney bean, being flat ovals, and the pods are flat also with a
distinct string along the straight side. He says they come in several
colors, white, black, red, purple, and orange. The plants and flowers
resemble our lima bean much more than a string or shell bean, having
narrow leaves well apart on the stalks.
Among the other legumes, he has lentils(2 kinds) garden peas (6 kinds)
several edible vetches, and the "garden bean" or fava, with 3 kinds
being known (white, yellow, and black)- the black being grown
ornamentally only, not eaten.
There are no references to what we have now... string beans, although
he says that the favas and "kidney" beans may be cooked immature, in
their pods, and dressed with vinegar and salt as a "daintie meat"

Ceridwen

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:45:52 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr@ptd.net>
Subject: SC - Green peas

Green peas are and were a cheap and plentiful food in our period of study.
Easily grown and dried, recipes abound using (yech....and don't you say a
word, Adamantius) dried peas. Fresh peas were seasonal, but highly prized
for natural sweetness. Several methods were developed to try and preserve
them, from immersing and keeping in water, to sealing in butter for short
periods (this actually works for a time, but the peas lose their color after
a week or so. They still taste good, however). In dried form peas were used
in many ways such as porridge (pottage) and mush, as a thickening agent, as
"pulse" which was flour made in part or wholly with pea, barley, and bean
meal, and in horse-bread, made of the afore mentioned pea and bean/barley
meal. Horse bread was human food, not horse food. These things were all
available to the common man. In fact, Horse Bread would not have made it to
the tables of the nobility, nor would any item made from "pulse".

This is true for western Europe and Britain, your author's area of interest.
I cannot speak for other areas that fall into our range of study.

Aoife

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:26:29 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRas@aol.com
Subject: SC - Peas-current research

<< Perhaps Ras could jog my memory----weren't peas a Roman Import to the
British Aisles?

Aoife
>>

Peas- History of

1) Extensively used by Egytians, Romans, Greeks.
2) Native of Mediterranean basin, Nile Vallry, mountians of Asia.
3) Found in archeological sites in Herault , France dating to 7000 B.C.E.
4) Gathered by Roman Legions from sand dunes around Palestine to supllement
rations.

Word origins

1) pea( modern coined singular) from pison (Greek)=pisum (Latin)= pise (Old
English)= pease (later English)= pea (coined singuler because pease was
misunderstood as a plural)

Use of Peas

1) Cultivated peas mainly eaten dry by Romans and in medieval times; e/g/
dried peas cooked with bacon.

Green Peas ( Note: Found this info astonishing)

1) Sugar peas (mange-tout) introduced to France in 1600 C.E. from Holland.
2) Green peas (petit pois) introduced to France in 1660 C.E. by the Sieur
Audiger returning from a mission to Genoa where he had hoped to learn the
secret of making liqueurs (:-0). The Comte de Soissons shelled the peas. They
were prepared and served in tiny dishes> one for the Queen, one for the
Cardibnal and the King and his brother each had a tiny dish of them. The
official pronouncement was, " All declared with one voice that nothing could
be better or more of a novelty, and that nothing like them, in that season,
had ever been seen in France before".

Curious fact

Split peas introduced as food at the end of the Victorian Age.

Sources

History of Food
Food in Histroy
The Fieldbook of Natural History
The Catalogue of Foods

Ras

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:36:47 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: SC - SC-reconstructions of medieval grain and legume dishes

Hi all from Anne-Marie
as promised, here's my reconstructions for medieval dishes that can be used
to combine grains and legumes. As Cariadoc has pointed out, this is not a
medieval concept, but these are reconstructions of medieval dishes, so I
guess its better than sneaking in your Veggie burger cuz there's nothing
else to eat.

Once again, formatting didn't transfer over well, and so if you need
citations, etc, let me know. And, of course, as always, if you choose to
use my recipes, that's great, just let me know and please cite me
appropriately.
Thanks, and enjoy!
- --AM

NEW PEAS (le Menagier M-13, c. 1395)
When you have New Peas, sometimes they are cooked on meat day both in meat
stock and with ground parsley, to make green soup, and this is on a meat
day: and on a fish day, you cook them in milk, with ginger and saffron in
them; and sometimes "a la cretonnée" of which I shall speak later.
With all these peas, whether new or old, you can force them though a sieve,
or a fine or horsehair mesh; but the old peas must be yellowed with ground
saffron of which the water may be put to boil the pease and the saffron
itself with the liquid from the peas.

CRETONNÉE (le Menagier M-19, c. 1395)
Cretonnée of New peas or new beans. Cook them almost to a purée, then
remove from the liquid and take fresh cow's milk and tell her who sells it
to you that she will be in trouble if she has added water to it, for very
often they extend their milk thus, and if it is not quite fresh or has
water into, it will turn. And first boil this milk before you put anything
gin it, or it still could turn; then first grind ginger to give appetite,
and saffron to yellow; it is said that if you want to make a liaison with
egg yolks poured gently in from above, these yolks will yellow it enough
also make the liaison, but milk curdles quicker with egg-yolks than with a
liaison of bread and with saffron to color it. And for this purpose, if you
use bread, it should be white unleavened bread, and moisten it in a bowl
with milk or meat stock, then grind and put it through a sieve; and when
your bread is sieved and your spices have not been sieved, put it all to
boil with your peas; and when it is all cooked, then add your milk and
saffron. You can make still another liaison, with which is the same peas or
beans ground then strained; use whichever you please.

2 cups frozen peas
1 cup whole milk
1/2 slice day old white unleavened pita bread
1 T chopped Italian parsley
1 tsp. ginger
1 pinch saffron
salt to taste

Boil the peas in the milk until tender. In a cuisinart, purée the milk,
bread, spices and all but 1/2 cup of the cooked peas. Put back in the
saucepan, and add back the reserved peas. Heat gently until warmed through,
adjusting salt to taste.
Serves 4 (1/2 cup of pea soup per person)

Reconstruction Notes: This modern version is a blending of the two period
pea recipes. It is a delightfully fresh tasting pea soup. Pease pottage is
mentioned specifically in the menus for boon day meals in period .
Unfortunately, our cretonnée got ruined and so was not serve. It apparently
had a very unfortunate chemical reaction with the aluminum pot that it was
prepared in, and so ended up tasting like tin foil. We chose to throw it
out rather than ruin everyone's taste buds. We cooks who had tested this
recipe before knew what we were missing, though, and were sorely
disappointed.

<snip of bean recipe - see the file beans-msg>

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:07:20 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - re:period recipes and sources/mustards

Hi all from Anne-Marie
Ceridwen says:
> Dried peas : several sources had recipes for soups or purees of "old",
> "yellow" or "white" peas that needed to be soaked to remove the hulls. I
> would guess they are dried peas. Ancient Cookery pp427 & 444, Forme of
> Cury #71, Le Menagier #1 ,Two Fifteenth Century p. 33.

Here's a bit of kitchen science for y'all.
Unhulled dried peas are indeed white. Boil them and the hulls separate and
float to the top. In fact, Elizabethan recipes for pea pottage specify that
you are to boil them till the hulls separate and then skim them off. Once
boiled and hulls removed, you get a dark green glop indistinguishable from
cooked split peas in taste, texture and appearance.

So, I feel confident that I can use split peas for "white peas" in any
application where they are cooked to moosh and skimmed.

- --Anne-Marie

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:18:15 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr@best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Seeking period recipes & sources...

At 4:49 PM -0400 5/2/98, Kallyr wrote:
>I am seeking period recipes, documentation and sources for the following:
<snip>

>Porridge or soup made with dried peas, and whether split peas are period.

There are lots of pea recipes in the English/French 14th-15th c sources,
and it isn't clear to me which are dried and which fresh. For a recipe
where we interpreted it as split peas:

Longe Wortes de Pesone
Two Fifteenth Century p. 89

Take grene pesyn, and wassh hem clene, And cast hem in a potte, and boyle
hem til they breke; and then take hem vppe fro the fire, and putte hem in
the broth in an other vessell; And lete hem kele; And drawe hem thorgh a
Streynour into a faire potte. And then take oynones in ij. or iij. peces;
And take hole wortes, and boyle hem in fayre water; And then take hem vppe,
And ley hem on the faire borde, And kutte hem in .iij. or in .iiij. peces;
And caste hem and the oynons into that potte with the drawen pesen, and
late hem boile togidre til they be all tendur, And then take faire oile and
fray, or elles fressh broth of some maner fissh, (if thou maist, oyle a
quantite), And caste thereto saffron, and salt a quantite. And lete hem
boyle wel togidre til they ben ynogh; and stere hem well euermore, And
serue hem forthe. [end of original; I've substuted th's for thorns.]

1 c split peas wortes: 1/2 lb chard 8 threads saffron
1 whole onion = 5/8 lb 1/4 c olive oil (or fish broth) 1/2 t salt

Wash peas, put in 4 c of water, simmer 50 minutes covered, squash the peas
with their liquid through a potato ricer, let cool. Cut up the onion into
eighths. Simmer onions covered in 3 c water for 20 minutes. Add chard,
cover again, cook 10 minutes more. Remove chard, cut in quarters, combined
everything with peas. Add salt, saffron. Bring to simmer and add oil,
simmer, stirring constantly, another 10 minutes.

>~~MinnaGantz <KALLYR@aol.com>

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:33:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch@adl15.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - pulentium

margali wrote:
> ... I do have a recipe for a chickpea puree based bread that is
> purported to be at least 180 years old...not in period but tasty if you
> like chick peas!

Here's one from 13th-century Andalusia. I'm not sure whose translation
this is... might be mine....

"False" Isfiriyya (made from chick peas)

Mash some chick peas, take their shell out, and grind them into flour,
which you then put into a bowl with a bit of yeast and some egg, and
knead it together with its aromatic seasonings until it's thoroughly
mixed. Fry it (as in the previous recipe) making it into thin cakes,
and make a sauce for them.

For comparison, here's the "previous recipe":

Simple Isfiriyya

Break however many eggs you like into a big pot and add some crumbled
yeast, in proportion to the number of eggs you have, and also some
pepper, coriander, saffron, cumin, and cinnamon. Beat it all together,
and put it in a frying pan with oil over a moderate fire and make a
thin cake out of it, as described previously.

The recipe before THIS one calls for finely chopped meat mixed in;
roughly the same spices, and no further detailed instructions.

mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
Stephen Bloch
sbloch@panther.adelphi.edu

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:55:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei@algonet.se>
Subject: SC - pea bread/porrige

[Adamatius wrote regarding the fact that most grains/peas were consumed
boiled, not baked, in Roman eras.]

This was most likely true for many other regions and times. I have been
told by archaeologists who study early food that it varied from region
to region during the Viking age. The avaiable grains probably played a
large part in this; not everything can be sucessfully baked into bread.

One example of the boiled pea and grain dishes is the porrige that has
been reconstructed based on gravefinds in Groetlingbo (the "oe" is
<o-with-umlaut>) on Gotland (10th c, I think). Peas and barley porrige.
Good stuff too, even if I've never tried it with the sheeps milk that
the original calls for.

/UlfR

P.S. You want a recipie? Why on earth for? Probably want me to give it
in English as well...

The Groetlingbo Porrige
(Based on a porrige from a Viking age womans grave on Gotland)

Makes 10 servings.

3,5 dl barley, preferably whole grain
0,5 dl peas (dried)
0.8 l water
1.3 l milk (sheeps milk in the original)

[NB one dl is one tenth of a liter, i.e. 3.4 fl.oz.]

* Soak the peas overnight. Throw away the water.

* Mix peas, barley and water. Perhaps some salt as well.

* Boil in a covered pot for 10 minutes.

* Add the milk, stir and bring to a boil.

* Allow to swell at a suitable temperature (45-60 min).

* Serve with milk, honey and dried or fresh apples or berries.

I have no idea if the archaeological record indicated the honey, berries
and apples, or if they were added by the archaeologist that
reconstructed it.
- --
Par Leijonhufvud parlei(at)algonet.se

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:20:36 -0600
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

Somewhere, I have recipes that call for 'pea broth'. We've discussed
this on the list, I think. Now, when you cook the dried peas, and you
take the lid off the pot, you have cooked peas at the bottom of the pot
and a brownish/clearish liquid at the top. Normally, we mush everything
together and go from there. The recipes don't call for pea soup, bruet,
or pottage. They want *broth*. This morning I cooked peas and then
drained them into a bowl. The fairly clear liquid I have divided and
will freeze for use when I find those recipes. Not in Chiquart,
apparently, 'find' couldn't produce 'pea broth'.

I simmered my ham bone and the trimmings with an onion, carrot, and
celery stalk and a twig of dried rosemary, then strained off that broth.
The soft peas went into the blender with the ham broth, and are back on
simmer with some fresh thyme. The bone and meat are cooling until I can
pick them and add the meat to the soup. I think the soup is better,
already, because there's less water in it.

What do people think of this form of 'pea broth'? Or do you all know
this and I'm the only one who didn't? Does anyone remember, off-hand,
where the pea broth recipes are, before I have to check everything??

Regards,

Allison
allilyn@juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:41:07 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
>
> Somewhere, I have recipes that call for 'pea broth'. We've discussed
> this on the list, I think. Now, when you cook the dried peas, and you
> take the lid off the pot, you have cooked peas at the bottom of the pot
> and a brownish/clearish liquid at the top. Normally, we mush everything
> together and go from there. The recipes don't call for pea soup, bruet,
> or pottage. They want *broth*. This morning I cooked peas and then
> drained them into a bowl. The fairly clear liquid I have divided and
> will freeze for use when I find those recipes. Not in Chiquart,
> apparently, 'find' couldn't produce 'pea broth'.

Taillevent's exact phrase is "puree de poys", which he uses seven or
eight times in Le Viandier, which is why this issue is so confusing. I
believe Chiquart does use the same expression, but whether an English
translation calls it "pea broth" I don't know. Most translators, AFAIK,
skirt the issue as to what this substance _is_ and simply translate it
as pea puree. From the context it's pretty clearly a liquid, and it is
tempting to assume it is the water peas are boiled in, with or without
the peas strained into it for additional thickening power.

I seem to recall Chiquart giving a recipe for pea puree, though...I'll
have to go back and check on this.

The question of what pea puree really is, is one of those insoluble
medieval cookery questions, which is why, when most people on the cooks'
list bring up cuskynoles as a sort of thread-ender, you'll find that
Cariadoc asks what pea puree is, the peas or the juice.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:59 -0500
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis@bucknell.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - questions on pea broth

>The question of what pea puree really is, is one of those insoluble
>medieval cookery questions, which is why, when most people on the cooks'
>list bring up cuskynoles as a sort of thread-ender, you'll find that
>Cariadoc asks what pea puree is, the peas or the juice.
>
>Adamantius

The real question that I have, is what kind of peas to use.
Scully in both the French cookery and Art of.. books talks about
medieval peas being _white_, but he never (that I could find)
tells you what to use as a modern substitute or equivalent.
Black-eyed peas behave properly (bursting and puree-ing just fine),
but tend to come out more of a grey sludge color. Anyone
have any suggestions or experience.

----wade/Gille

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:16:54 EST
From: LrdRas@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

allilyn@juno.com writes:
<< What do people think of this form of 'pea broth'? Or do you all know
this and I'm the only one who didn't? Does anyone remember, off-hand,
where the pea broth recipes are, before I have to check everything??

Allison >>

It sounds really tasty. My first question though is what form of peas did you
use? If they were split peas I can see why you fail to get a clear broth.
Split peas were an invention of the Victorian era and did not exist in
period.

Dried peas in period were whole dried peas which can be bought at some
markets, especially those that carry Goya products, including the white peas
that are occasionally mentioned in period recipes. These peas when cooked
still have their 'husk' on them and do not turn into a homogenous mush. The
broth is relatively clear depending on the added ingredients.

Ras

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:25:57 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

Mordonna22@aol.com wrote:
> The verb "puree" means to crush until a paste is formed, so why is there a
> question as to what "pea puree" means?

Because that's a modern usage. Translators like Scully use the word
because it's so close (identical, in fact) to a modern word, in spite of
a slight change in the definition.

Period purees were strained, not crushed: they were purified. Two types
of puree were therefore possible. One, which separates liquids from
solids (either of which could be used, or both), and one which combines
[most of] them in a more or less homogeneous, well, puree. Therefore pea
puree, according to the period definition of "puree", could be pea
water, crushed peas, or a smooth mix of the two, depending on various
factors.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:32:30 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

LrdRas@aol.com wrote:
> It sounds really tasty. My first question though is what form of peas did you
> use? If they were split peas I can see why you fail to get a clear broth.
> Split peas were an invention of the Victorian era and did not exist in period.
>
> Ras

On a partially related note, there are, however, numerous period uses
for, and references to, a variety of hulled (as in removal of the
cotyledon, as well as the seed pod), and sometimes chopped, dried beans,
so while split peas don't seem to appear in the medieval European cook's
arsenal of goodies, split favas do.

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:46:30 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - split peas

Seton1355@aol.com wrote:
> What husk? I thought one shelled peas. Also, if they are dried (aren't split
> peas also dried?) Wouldn't they cook up the same as split peas?
> Also, abput split peas. What is the point of spliting them? And how is it
> they are Victorian? What did they use them for or how/why were they invented?
> Phillipa

In the case of most peas and beans there is a paper-thin, transparent
layer surrounding the legume. You can eat them, but some consider them,
well, a sort of aesthetic issue, which is one reason why some people
find it necessary to completely puree (in the modern sense whiz whiz)
pea soup...

Your basic fresh green pea has this layer, too.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:28:48 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - split peas

Hi all from Anne-Marie

we are asked:
> What husk? I thought one shelled peas. Also, if they are dried (aren't split
> peas also dried?) Wouldn't they cook up the same as split peas?
> Also, abput split peas. What is the point of spliting them? And how is it
> they are Victorian? What did they use them for or how/why were they
> invented?

I have used both the modern split pea and the unhulled whole dry peas. In a
side by side batch of pea soup (a la Martha Washington), they both cooked
down. The unhulled peas let loose their thin white skins, which are skinned
off, as per the instructions in the primary source. The resulting glop is
indistinguishable from the regular ol' split pea glop, in color, texture
and taste.

By splitting them, you don¹t have to hull them or skim off the skins (which
look rather like little eyeballs. ugh!), and they may cook slightly
quicker...
- --AM

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:44:28 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr@best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

The recipe for Perre in _Two Fifteenth Century_ says:

Take grene pesyn, and boile hem in a potte; And whan they ben y-broke,
drawe the broth a good quantite thorgh a streynour into a potte, And sitte
hit on the fire; and take oynons and parcelly, and hewe hem small togidre,
And caste hem thereto; And take pouder of Canell and peper, and caste
thereto, and lete boile; And take vynegur and pouder of ginger, and caste
thereto; And then take Saffron and salte, a litull quantite, and caste
thereto; And take faire peces of paynmain, or elles of such tendur brede,
and kutte hit yn fere mosselles, and caste there-to; And then serue hit so
forth.

When I originally did it, I assumed you were supposed to be putting
everything through the strainer. It later occurred to me that an
alternative reading was that you were using the broth in the dish, and
doing something else with the peas--and that possibility is mentioned at
the end of the recipe in the current edition of the _Miscellany_.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:36:26 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

david friedman wrote:
>
> The recipe for Perre in _Two Fifteenth Century_ says:
>
> Take grene pesyn, and boile hem in a potte; And whan they ben y-broke,
> drawe the broth a good quantite thorgh a streynour into a potte,
<snip>
> When I originally did it, I assumed you were supposed to be putting
> everything through the strainer. It later occurred to me that an
> alternative reading was that you were using the broth in the dish, and
> doing something else with the peas--and that possibility is mentioned at
> the end of the recipe in the current edition of the _Miscellany_.

One thing to consider is that the recipe does give us a backhanded,
vague guide as to how much of the pea substance is infused/dissolved
into the broth. The peas are boiled until they break open, which
indicates some of the internal pea stuff is going to end up in the
broth, even if strained under normal gravity and no other pressure.

But yes, I recall a couple of other recipes where peas are boiled and
strained for the cooking liquid (French Joutes?). My only question is if
anyone has an example of a recipe that does use the drained pea
solids...offhand, I can't think of one, unless you count bread and
animal fodder.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:29:09 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - split peas

Hi all from Anne-Marie

we are asked:
>So are the peas referred to as "white peas" just un-hulled regular peas
>and therefore I can make the split pea soup recipe from the Medieval
>Kitchen that I wanted to make using split peas and it won't be OOP?

That's my take on it. Well, its not totally period, but its a reasonable
substitute. (the un hulled peas are WAY more expensive). Others may
disagree, of course! :)
- --AM
PS dunno nuthin 'bout yellow peas...

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:53:05 -0600
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

>> These peas when cooked still have there 'husk' on them and do not turn
into a homogenous mush. The broth is relatively clear depending on the
added ingredients.<<

But once their husks are off, you get the same pea puree, minus the pea
broth. I'm sparing my arthritic fingers, using the split peas. My broth
may be a little cloudy, but meat stock is sort of 'beige' too. If I
really need the pea broth to be clear, I could strain through linen.

I realize that Scully refers to 'pea puree', so those were not the
recipes I'm remembering. They were ones in which the color green would
have been atrocious, as Adamantius points out. Ras, you said once that
pea beans are navy beans. Do you use these as a substitute for white
peas, ever? We get some Goya products, but I'm not sure I've ever seen
white peas. How long do you cook them before straining, and do you have
to remove husks with the hands, as per Forme of Cury's instructions?

Adamantius, what do you use? And do you always make the full puree for
your recipes?

Allison, full of delicious pea soup!
allilyn@juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:31:22 EST
From: LrdRas@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

allilyn@juno.com writes:
<< you said once that
pea beans are navy beans. Do you use these as a substitute for white
peas, ever? >>

No. Since they are New World that thought never really occured to me. However,
not a few legume/bean recipes could be prepared using either ingredient and
still produce a very tasty end product.

<<We get some Goya products, but I'm not sure I've ever seen white peas.>>

The color is not intensely white like Phaseolus species. It is more on the
greyish white side.

<<How long do you cook them before straining, and do you have
to remove husks with the hands, as per Forme of Cury's instructions? >>

Until they are done and fully cooked. I have not seen other recipes that say
to remove the contents from the skin exceptpossibly for the one you site
although I imagine they might exist. The skins are not 'inedible' and really
are not objectionable in the mouth. They are 'indigestable' and pass through
you though. When I need to remove the skins, I simple press the cooked peas
through a strainer. The skins stay behind and the pea mush goes through the
holes.

Would it be possible to post the original recipe you are referring to as I
don't have ny copy of Curye at hand. Is it possible he is referring to
removing the dry peas from their shells as opposed to their skins? I know
that a few fava recipes include this step.

So far as Goya products are concerned, I get my white peas at Giant. The
manager tells me that Goya is a 'difficult' company to deal with and not all
products ordered are delivered or even available on a regular basis or in a
timely fashion. This may have something to do with unavailability in your
area. Dried white peas look like whole dried green peas but are almost white
and wrinkled.

Ras

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:31:54 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: SC - SC: pea recipe

hi all from Anne-Marie

Heres my recipe for cretonne. OUTSTANDING stuff!!! pretty, light green in
color and wonderfully fresh in taste. We made large batches ahead of time and
reheated in a large double boiler set up to prevent scorching. Oh, and if you
do it in an aluminum pot, it will have the unfortunate taste of tin foil :P.

NEW PEAS (le Menagier M-13, c. 1395)
When you have New Peas, sometimes they are cooked on meat day both in meat
stock and with ground parsley, to make green soup, and this is on a meat day:
and on a fish day, you cook them in milk, with ginger and saffron in them; and
sometimes "a la cretonn=E9e" of which I shall speak later.
With all these peas, whether new or old, you can force them though a sieve, or
a fine or horsehair mesh; but the old peas must be yellowed with ground saffron
of which the water may be put to boil with the pease and the saffron itself
with the liquid from the peas.

CRETONNEE (le Menagier M-19, c. 1395)
Cretonnee of New peas or new beans. Cook them almost to a puree, then remove
from the liquid and take fresh cow's milk and tell her who sells it to you that
she will be in trouble if she has added water to it, for very often they extend
their milk thus, and if it is not quite fresh or has water in it, it will turn.
And first boil this milk before you put anything in it, or it still could turn;
then first grind ginger to give appetite, and saffron to yellow; it is said
that if you want to make a liaison with egg yolks poured gently in from above,
these yolks will yellow it enough and also make the liaison, but milk curdles
quicker with egg-yolks than with a liaison of bread and with saffron to color
it. And for this purpose, if you use bread, it should be white unleavened
bread, and moisten it in a bowl with milk or meat stock, then grind and put it
through a sieve; and when your bread is sieved and your spices have not been
sieved, put it all to boil with your peas; and when it is all cooked, then add
your milk and saffron. You can make still another liaison, which is the same
peas or beans ground then strained; use whichever you please.

2 cups frozen peas
1 cup whole milk
1/2 slice day old white unleavened pita bread
1 T chopped Italian parsley
1 tsp. ginger
1 pinch saffron
salt to taste

Boil the peas i in the milk until tender. In a cuisinart, pur=E9e the milk,
bread, spices and all but 1/2 cup of the cooked peas. Put back in the saucepan,
and add back the reserved peas. Heat gently until warmed through, adjusting
salt to taste.
Serves 4 (1/2 cup of pea soup per person)

Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:27:13 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr@best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

>LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
>> Somewhere, I have recipes that call for 'pea broth'. We've discussed
>> this on the list, I think. Now, when you cook the dried peas, and you
>> take the lid off the pot, you have cooked peas at the bottom of the pot
>> and a brownish/clearish liquid at the top. Normally, we mush everything
>> together and go from there. The recipes don't call for pea soup, bruet,
>> or pottage. They want *broth*. This morning I cooked peas and then
>> drained them into a bowl. The fairly clear liquid I have divided and
>> will freeze for use when I find those recipes. Not in Chiquart,
>> apparently, 'find' couldn't produce 'pea broth'.

and Adamantius answered:
>Taillevent's exact phrase is "puree de poys", which he uses seven or
>eight times in Le Viandier, which is why this issue is so confusing. I
>believe Chiquart does use the same expression, but whether an English
>translation calls it "pea broth" I don't know. Most translators, AFAIK,
>skirt the issue as to what this substance _is_ and simply translate it
>as pea puree. From the context it's pretty clearly a liquid, and it is
>tempting to assume it is the water peas are boiled in, with or without
>the peas strained into it for additional thickening power.
...
>The question of what pea puree really is, is one of those insoluble
>medieval cookery questions, which is why, when most people on the cooks'
>list bring up cuskynoles as a sort of thread-ender, you'll find that
>Cariadoc asks what pea puree is, the peas or the juice.
>
Here is what Menagier de Paris says about making and using pea broth (Janet
Hinson's translation):

And first a SOUP of OLD PEAS. It is appropriate to shell them, and to find
out from the people the place the nature of the peas of the area (for
commonly peas do not cook well in well-water: and in other places they cook
well in spring-water and in river water, as in Paris, and in other places,
they do not cook at all in spring-water, as at Besiers) and this known, it
is appropriate to wash them in a pan with warm water, then put in a pot
with warm water on the fire, and boil them until they burst. Then separate
the liquid from the solid, and put the liquid aside, then fill the pea-pot
with warm water and put on the fire and separate a second time, if you wish
to have more liquid...[directions on how to make pea soup out of the solid
part snipped]

The liquid from the peas on a meat day is of no account. On a fish day and
in Lent, fry the onions as is told in the preceding chapter, and then put
the oil in which the onions were fried and the onions in along with
bread-crumbs, ginger, cloves and grain, ground: and sprinkle with vinegar
and wine, and add a little saffron, then adorn the bowl with slices of
bread.

Item, with the liquid make a broth on fish days. Do not stir it and take it
soon from the fire, etc.

Item, mix the liquid with beet-leaves and it will be a very good soup, but
do not add any more water; and this is for Lent...

See here how onions are cooked: in water for a long time before the peas,
and until the water is all used up in cooking; then add some pea-liquid to
cook and to take away the flavor of the water.

Also oysters are first washed in hot water, then parboiled, then they must
be partially cooked in the pea-liquid so that their flavor will stay in the
liquid, and not allowed to froth, then remove the oysters and fry them if
you wish, and put some of them in the bowls, and with the rest make a dish.

Adamantius later writes:
>My only question is if anyone has an example of a recipe that does use the
>drained pea
>solids...offhand, I can't think of one, unless you count bread and
>animal fodder.

See the pea soup recipe above; the rest of it is in Le Menagier on
Cariadoc's web page.

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:40:49 EST
From: SigridPW@aol.com
Subject: SC - peas in period

There is a traditional Venetian dish called 'risi e bisi' (rice and peas). It
was the official dish served to the Doge on the 25th of April (feast of St.
Mark, patron saint of Venice). There was a big too-doo over who could bring
the best peas for the Doge.

The recipe as I've found it (with the above historical references) in Venice
& Food by Sally Spector.

4 servings

2T olive oil
5T butter
1 small onion, finely chopped
2 lb fresh (or 8oz frozen) peas
pinch of sugar
1 1/2 qt broth*
10 oz rice "fino" or "super-fino"
salt and pepper
2-3T minced fresh parsley
freshly grated Parmesan cheese

1) Shell the peas. *Rinse the pods and put them in 2qt. salted water OR put
in a bouillon cube and no salt. Boil very slowly for one hour.

2) Strain broth, pressing liquid out of the pods and discard them. If using
bouillon for the liquid, prepare 1 1/2 qt of it

3) Put onion, oil and 2 1/2T butter in a pot. Cook gently until golden.

4) Add the peas with a pinch of sugar, and a bit of broth. Cook gently,
stirring occasionally, until they soften (add frozen peas straight from the
freezer, do not defrost)

5) When the liquid has evaporated and the mixture is "dry", add the rice.
raise the heat and mix quickly.

6) Pour in a ladle of hot broth. Should be boiling. Stir constantly,
adding
a ladle of broth when the liquid has reduced, but keeping the rice from
sticking. (no mean trick, that!) After about 18 minutes, the rice should be
done: if it's still too crunchy, cook another minute or two.

7) Turn off heat. Taste for salt and pepper. Add a ladle of broth, the
remaining butter and the parsley, but do not mix them in. Cover pot and let
sit on the burner 2-3 minutes, then gently stir together.

8) serve immediately with freshly grated parmesan cheese

The author goes on to point out that tiny fresh peas are best. She also
states that according to Venetian legend, there was to be one pea for each
grain of rice for the Doge's bowl.

Imagine how green and fresh and spring-like this would be! I am hoping to
include this in my menu for the banquet for Summergate's Anniversary.

Lady Giuglia Madelena Sarducci

Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:18:09 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

Hi all from Anne-Marie

Ras sez that one should use whole snap peas instead of shelled ones for le
menagiers cretonnee.

I disagree, for several reasons...(what, me and Ras disagree???? Heeaven
forfend! :))

1. the same source contatins a recipe for "new peas in the pod". These
definately call for whole peas. If the cretonnee recipe meant to use the
same items, wouldnt it have said so? I mean, the "peas in the pod" were to
be different enough that he felt he needed to mention that they were in the
pod.

2. There are other cretonnee type recipes in the French corpus, including
Taillevent. Taillevent specifies to "cook them to mush and drain them".
This doenst work if you're thinking of using the mange tout type peas..you
never get the mush, and theres no squishing step to make them mush.

3. My logic says that both the New PEas and the Cretonne PEas are the same
ones, just that one is in the pod and the other shelled. I could be wrong,
of course. Now, if you're trying to approximate a taste and think that the
modern frozen peas taste radically different, I could see using mange tout
peas, but the texture would be so different I would be hesitant to do so.
I've grown modnern mange touts large enough to shell and eat and they dont
taste really siginifantly differnt from the frozen ones. The skins are
tougher, but that's about it (according to my memory, anyway).

Again, each of us has to decide for ourselves how we choose to interpret
such things...we can never really know, until they find a stash of peas in
a medieval midden and do some DNA fingerprinting on them...:)_

- --AM

Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:11:53 EST
From: LrdRas@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - SC: pea recipe

allilyn@juno.com writes:
<< But the recipes called for peas, not pea pods. Ever tried making pea pod
soup?

Allison >>

As a matter of fact , yes. They turn to mush in a very short time. :-).
IIRC, getting the peas to a state of mush was one of the instructions.

Also the recipe in question can also be made by using dried peas . My question
is about whether the recipe was intended to be used with fresh green shelled
peas. I don't personally think so.

Granted that AM believes that a corrobarating recipe in the same tome which is
very similar does call for peas in the pod and in this she is most certainly
correct. However, the existence of a similar recipe does not , IMO,
necessarily translate into the fact that this one would use fresh green
peas.

Instructions to remove the peas from their pods could also refer to removing
dried peas from their husks. Another possible twist on the interpretation
might be that the pea in pod version was meant for early summer use and the
peas out of pod version was meant to be used in the off season.with dried
peas.

As was noted there is a definite logic to AM's theory. My main concern is that
all the references to period use of peas that I am AWARE of points to the use
of dried peas or podded sugar peas. The illogical part, for me, is that sugar
peas, and indeed, almost all non-petite pois varieties of peas have a VERY
short period of time, a matter of a couple of days, when they are sweet and
succulent enough to be used as fresh shelled peas. Their palatability at this
stage is of such a short duration that I find it inexplicable why such a
recipe for their use would be included in the manuscript. at all.

In the meantime, we have a great tasting redaction from AM that might be
correct so why not use it? :-)

Ras

Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:21:19 -0600
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - More greene pease

Was AM's recipe from deLaVarenne? I know she has it. Just found this,
and think it may be a sugar pea pod type to try.

87. Greene pease. Passe them, if you will, in the panne with butter, and
seeth them with cabidge, lettice, or with purslaine; after they are well
sod with a bundle of hearbs, and well seasoned, serve them garnished with
lettice. You may dresse and season them with creame, as the sparagus
whereof mention is madeabove, in the article 79,. of sparagus with
creame.

79 says to "stove them a very little, with very new creame, and serve if
you will with a little nutmeg."

These are from the Falconwood Reprint edition.

I think I'll try mint and rosemary if I make this.

Allison
allilyn@juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:39:45 -0600
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

Pontormo, Jacopo. _Diario_, the diary of the painter, quotes him as
saying that he had fresh, young peas for dinner. The bibliography did
not give any publication information, and is in Italian. Furthermore,
this is late period, which I know you think is 'scribal error', Ras, but
within our total period people did begin to eat green peas that were not
dried or mush. These can work for a late feast, Italian in theme,
French, according to the quotes people put up earlier, and possibly other
cultures as well.

Allison
allilyn@juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:11:02 EST
From: LrdRas@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

Sweet Lady,

In a message dated 2/7/99 4:05:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, allilyn@juno.com
writes:

<< Pontormo, Jacopo. _Diario_, the diary of the painter, quotes him as
saying that he had fresh, young peas for dinner. >>

Out of the pod? In the pod? I see no justification for assuming he meant out
of the pod in this quote. I am aware that the idea of eating fresh shelled
peas was introduced to France by an Italian church official through the
French court. Here we have no disagreement.

What is interesting is that this quote apperently shows us that at the very
least 'young peas' in whatever form they happened to be were being eaten
outside the noble class. For those researching late Italian peasant or non-
noblemen's food this is an exciting bit of information.

<<but within our total period people did begin to eat green peas that were
not dried or mush. >>

I agree. There is some evidence that fresh shelled green peas of the petite
pois variety may have been eaten in certain sections of Italy in the early
stages of modern cookery. We have no argument here. However, I do not agree
that they were used outside of Italy within even SCAdianly excepted time
limits. Their introduction into France is documented as 1681 C.E. and then
only a handful of French royals ate them as a novel treat on a single
occasion. The following introduction into the general popular diet could not
have been achieved until later than that. My math may be a little off but
this appears to be well outside the time frame of the SCA.

<< These can work for a late feast, Italian in theme,>>

Correct. But to use this as a spring board for using them in other cuisines
in late period is, IMO, an error.

<< French, according to the quotes people put up earlier, >>

My interpretation of that data does not conclude with the same observations
you have arrived at. The French recipes work very well without the use of
fresh shelled green peas and , IMO, there is no justification for doing so
before 1681 C.E. in France and certainly none within period in places such
as England.

<<and possibly other cultures as well.>>

On what basis do you make the above statement? Every known authority has
clearly indicated the use of dried peas (out of season) and podded peas (in
season) throughout the middle ages. The only possible exception to this is
the one you indicated referring to Italian cuisine SFAIK.

<< Allison >>

al-Sayyid Ras

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:16:51 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> Actually, Ras, I can't think of any source that I know that has peas and
> pods eaten. They may be in some of my books and I haven't seen them, or
> noticed them. With the long habit of eating the dried, shelled peas I
> would have expected to read that people made a point of saying "...and
> they ate the pea pods, too!" Pontormo only comments on the peas, not the
> peapods. Doesn't prove anything, since he didn't paint himself eating
> them.

I've been meaning to throw a word or two into this one for a while,
FWIW. I think in cases where dried peas are pretty clearly intended
(probably the case in recipes calling simply for "peas"), the peas are
shelled because they'd be likely to get moldy before drying
sufficiently. Bearing in mind, of course, that in medieval Europe there
was an entire technology developed (and evidently fairly widely used) to
keep beans from molding in storage from insufficient drying [see
references to canebynes, frizzled beans, etc.], so evidently this was a
reasonable concern.

Conversely, the recipes calling for new or green peas specify, well, new
or green peas, pease, or peysoun, but then there are some, I believe,
which refer to peasecods. I doubt the shells from peas are what they're
talking about (although I suppose it's possible).

Anyway, I believe that in _most_ instances if a recipe called for peas
in the shell the reference would be pretty specific.

Adamantius

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:51:19 EST
From: THLRenata@aol.com
Subject: SC - Another Pea Recipe

I found this one in The Good Huswife's Jewell by Thomas Dawson 1596:

To make a close Tarte of Greene Pease

Take half a peck of greene Pease, sheale them and seeth them, and cast them
into a cullender, and let the water go from them then put them into the Tart
whole, & season then with Pepper, saffron & salte, and a dish of sweet butter,
close and bake him almost one houre, then drawe him, and put to him a little
Vergice, and shake them and set them into the Ovven againe, and so serve it.

These look like fresh shelled peas to me. How much is half a peck? And did
the term "sweet butter" refer to unsalted butter as it does today?

Renata
Barony of Altavia
Kingdom of Caid
Los Angeles, CA

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:28:35 GMT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Help in getting to plan medieval luncheon for the college
union

>perhaps a pea pottage

Use the very first one in the book by Odile Redon, it's flavored with ginger
and thickened with egg (my new version of pea soup for the family keeps the
ginger, skips the egg.) I've recently got a stack of books from the library
that include the Digby book and one by a contemporary (?) John Evelyn. I
recall reading another pea soup with ginger recipe, probably in one of those
as I haven't gotten to the others yet. But I was skimming so many while at
the library that it could be in some other random book. I'll double check.

Bonne

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:08:58 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - legumes (was: survival/ camp cooking)

hey all from Anne-Marie
Ras sez:
> Split peas would be a good thing for a 'survival' kit but they are not
> 'period.' The process used for producing split peas was introduced in the
> late 19th century CE.

yes, but my experiements show that the final result is indistinguishable
whichever you start with. In fact, the recipes that specify to start with
dry peas in the later corpus I was looking at specify that you are to boil
them until the hulls remove and then skim off the skins. Whether we started
with regular modern split peas or the medieval whole dried peas, both
yielded a pea green glop.

interestingly, the whole dried peas are "white"...perhaps the source of the
"white peas" vs green peas distiniction in the earlier sources? (ie dried
vs fresh). dunno, but its intereseting to think about! :)

Brighid asks:

>Dried whole peas are late period, however. Don't know how readily
>available they are. I think I've seen them in Indian grocery stores.
>(Maybe health food stores, too?)

my regular grocery store carries them in the ethnic bulk food section (OK,
its regular for me, but Ballard Market is anything but ordinary :))

- --AM

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:47:00 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr@best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Bean Pie

At 12:42 PM -0500 11/10/99, Eric & Mary Ward wrote:
>I have just recently signed onto this listserv & am finding it very
>educational. Now I have a request for the members of the list, if I
>may.
>
>I have been asked to make a 'bean pie' for a feast at our local
>Champions Event.
>I have found some recipes in modern cookbooks for it.
>What I would like to ask is:
>
>It has been requested as a dessert. Would a bean pie be a dessert?
>Would it be considered 'period' & does anyone have a recipe?

Both of these are worked out recipes from the Miscellany

Torta from Red Chickpeas
Platina p. 142 (book 8)

Grind up red chickpeas that have been well cooked with their own
juice and with a little rosewater. When they have been ground, pass
them through a strainer into a bowl. Add a pound of almonds so ground
up that it is not a chore to pass them through the strainer, two
ounces of raisins, three or four figs ground up at the same time. And
besides this, add an ounce of pine kernels coarsely ground, and as
much sugar and rosewater as you need, and just so much cinnamon and
ginger; and blend. Put the mixture into a well-greased pan with the
pastry crust on the bottom. There are those who add starch or pike
eggs, so that this torta is more firm; when it is cooked, put it
almost above the fire to make it more colored. It should be thin and
sprinkled with sugar and rosewater.

1 15 oz can chickpeas, w/ liquid 1 oz pine nuts (starch or pike eggs)
3/8 c water 1/2 c sugar 2 t more sugar
1 lb almonds 1/8 c rosewater a few drops more rosewater
2 oz raisins 1 t cinnamon pastry for 2 9" pie crusts
4 figs 1/2 t ginger

Grind almonds finely, but not to dust. Chop pine nuts coarsely. Grind
chickpeas in a food processor with the liquid from the can, then
grind raisins and figs. Stir these and the sugar, rosewater, extra
water, cinnamon, and ginger together. The pie crust can be rolled out
and put on a 10"x15" cookie sheet or it can be made into two 9" pie
shells. The filling is spread on top; it will be thicker if made as
two pies. Mix extra sugar and rosewater together and sprinkle on top.
Bake 30 to 40 minutes for the cookie-sheet version, or 50-60 minutes
for the pie version, in a 375° oven until golden brown.

<snip of bean pie recipe - see beans-msg>

David Friedman
Professor of Law

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:30:08 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss@gte.net>
Subject: white peas...was Re: SC - Crown Tourney feast

hey all from Anne-Marie
Lucrezia tells us:
- - white peas = chickpeas (oops)

actually, I dont know that this is true. Chickpeas or ceci beans or
garbanzos are indeed in the pea family, but my reading suggests that white
peas are peas.

see, when you take whole green peas and dry them, the outer husk turns
white, and they look, well, white.

Interestingly, when you boil them, as in the period pea soup recipes from
Martha Washington etc, the skins come off (just like the recipe describes),
and you can skim them off (just like the recipe describes) and you end up
with green pea glop, just as if you had startted with modern split peas.

go figure!
if any one has any evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear about it...

- --AM, who is very jealous of Lucruztias neat event in Wales :)

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:38:29 -0000
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin@caci.co.uk>
Subject: white peas...was Re: SC - Crown Tourney feast

hey all from Anne-Marie
Lucrezia tells us:
- - white peas = chickpeas (oops)
actually, I dont know that this is true. Chickpeas or ceci beans or
garbanzos are indeed in the pea family, but my reading suggests that
white peas are peas. see, when you take whole green peas and dry them, the
outer husk turns white, and they look, well, white.
Interestingly, when you boil them, as in the period pea soup recipes
from Martha Washington etc, the skins come off (just like the recipe
describes), and you can skim them off (just like the recipe describes) and
you end up with green pea glop, just as if you had startted with modern
split peas.go figure! if any one has any evidence to the contrary, I'd love
to hear about it...
- --AM, who is very jealous of Lucruztias neat event in Wales :)

Hmm, well the recipe I used was:

Pesoun of Almayne FoC.72
Take white pesoun; wisshe hem. Seeth hem a grete while. Take hem vp and cole
hem thurgh a cloth; wisshe hem in colde water til the hulles go off. Cast
hem in a pot and couere hem that no breth go out, and boile hem right wel,
and cast therinne gode mylke of almaundes and a pertye of flour of rys with
powdour gynger, safroun, & salt.

I was going on the premise that as this was a Forme of Cury (ie English)
recipe, they were using un-shucked peas, not chickpeas.
What do people think? Peas or chickpeas?

Al Servizio Vostro, e del Sogno
Lucretzia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK

Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:47:08 EDT
From: allilyn@juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - an interesting challenge...and its even about medieval food!
:)

Chiquart's chickpeas--vegan

76. Again syseros: and to give understanding to him who will prepare the
syseros let him take his chick-peas and pick them over grain by grain
such that there remains nothing but the chick-peas themselves, and then
wash them in three or four changes of lukewarm water and put them to
boil; and, being boiled, let him remove them from this water and put in
other fresh water and put back to boil and, being boiled put them to rest
in the said pot until the next day; and when the next day comes drain the
water off them and put in again other fresh water and put to boil with a
very little salt, almond oil, and parsley together with its roots well
picked over and cleaned -- and these roots should be scraped and very
well washed -- and a little sage. And do not put in anything else without
the doctor's order, and if he tells you to put in a little cinnamon and a
little verjuice to give it a little flavor, put them in; otherwise not.
[this differs from the following recipes by the addition of parsley,
parsley root, sage, and possibly cinnamon and verjuice]
Using canned chick peas, drain, rinse, add fresh water, salt,
almond oil, and parsley, and parsley roots, sage. Cinnamon and verjuice
may be added. [possibly, if almond oil is not available, olive oil and
almond extract might be used. If parsley roots are not available, a few
slices of parsnip will impart the ëearthyí flavor I associate with
roots.] APdeT
This can be suggested to modern cooks who want to 'help with the
demo'.
Regards,
Allison, allilyn@juno.com

Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:58:33 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD@Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Truck Crops

> The field pea, IIRC, is descended from the N. African pea that is like
> our black-eyed pea.

> Allison, allilyn@juno.com

No, the field pea is Pisum sativum. The black-eyed pea is Vigna sinensis
and is related to the yard-long bean, Vigna unguiculata. They are both
members of the pulse family, but then, so is carob.

In pre-Columbian Europe, the Latin "phaseolus" is used to describe members
of genus Vigna and was later applied to the New World beans shaped like a
kidney. Phaseolus then became the genus name for the New World beans.

Bear

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:41:11 EDT
From: allilyn@juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - Broda and other chickpea recipes

>From Chiquart:

>From Forme of Curye:
73. Chyches. Chickpeas. Take chickpeas and lay them in hot ashes all
night or all day, or else lay them in hot embers. In the morning, wash
them in clean water, and cook them over the fire with clean water. Bring
to a simmer and add oil, whole garlic cloves, saffron, powder forte and
salt; simmer until done and dish it up.

Regards,
Allison, allilyn@juno.com

Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:08:38 EDT
From: Gerekr@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Protectorate Feast 2 - No recipes

>From: TerryD@Health.State.OK.US (Decker, Terry D.)
>I also have one other problem. I'm short one dish -- Elizabethan,
>vegetable, preferably green, definitely not spinach. Anyone got any ideas
>or recipes?
>
>Bear

Having had my Lorwin forever (25+ yrs), she was my first reaction...

Let's see, what's "vegetive", not spinach and looks like it would come
out green?

To stewe hartechockes in creme - John Murrell, A Booke of cookerie, 1621
"Take the thickest bottomes of the thickest Hartechockes being very
tender boyled, and stew them in a little butter and vinegar, whole Mace
and Sugar, then take halfe a pinte of sweete Cream boyled with whole
Mace, straine it with the yolkes of two-new-laid egges, and brewe them
together with halfe a ladlefull of the best thicke butter and vinegar,
and a little Sugar, so dish up the bottomes of the Hartechockes, & lay it
with sippets of a slickt Lemon round about, then poure your sauce on the
toppe of the Hartechockes, and sticke them full of fryde tosts upright
scrape on a little Sugar and serve it to the table hot."

To boyle ... peascods - the same
"Take greene sugar Pease when the pods bee but young, and pull out the
string of the backe of the podde, and picke the huske of the stalkes
ends, and as many as you can take up in your hand at three several times,
put them into the pipkin, with halfe a pound of sweete Butter, a quarter
of a pint of faire water, a little grosse Pepper, Salt, and Oyle of Mace,
and let them stue very softly until they bee very tender, then put in the
yolkes of two or three rawe egges strained with six spoonefuls of Sacke,
and as much Vinegar, put it into your Peascods and brew them with a
ladle, then dish them up."

<snip of salad recipes. See salads-msg>

Well, do you want period or Elizabethan? Looks like you might squeeze
the Murrell in, but the May looks pretty late. Here's hoping others come
up with references a bit more in period!

Chimene

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:28:01 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - OOP dried split peas

Seton1355@aol.com wrote:
> Sorry for the off topic / oop question but I'm stumped.
> Tonight I was making dal using yellow split peas. I cooked the peas for 20
> minutes and then added rice and continued to cook them for an additional
> hour, The split peas never got totally soft. Can anyone tell me why?
> Thanks
> Phillipa

pH is a factor in getting dried legumes soft. You'll note that Le
Managier has a section on which peas and, I think, beans, are best from
which locations, and I believe he discusses which area's water is best
for cooking them. Similarly, Apicius frequently mentions adding cooking
soda (probably sodium carbonate or what we call washing soda, but
perfectly edible in small quantities, just as we use sodium bicarb) to
address this issue. The bottom line is that dried peas and beans don't
seem to like acid pH cooking liquids as well as they like neutral or
basic (alkaline) liquids.

I'm not sure why this would be an issue in the case of dal, though,
unless you have some kind of temporary acidic hard water or something.
You might try adding a tiny pinch of soda next time.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:17:59 EST
From: Seton1355@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - OOP dried split peas

<<
Maybe you should have soaked them first...I am assuming here that they were
dried. I know that, with bean soup, you have to soak the beans overnight,
then cook them for several hours. >>

Yes, I'm thinking that now, after the fact. But I didn't think that split
peas had to be soaked. Oh well, live and learn.

Phillipa

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:32:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Nisha Martin <nishamartin@yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - split peas and other beans.

Split peas dont usually have to be soaked. Neither do
lentils. There are a few things that can make them
cook unevenly. One is if they are too old. The other
is too much salt in the water, which is why most
cookbooks will tell you to season in the last few
minutes of cooking, and another is cooking them at a
boil instead of a simmer. This goes for most beans,
whether you need to soak them or not.

Nisha

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:13:27 -0800
From: lilinah@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: SC - Peas, Peas, Beautiful Peas...

Thanks to Andrea's hint, i searched the web and found a wholesaler of
dried cream peas
http://www.camelliabeans.com/
They have all sorts of dried peas (green, yellow, cream, field,
crowder, and blackeye) as well as one kind of lentil (i can get at
least three kinds around here) and a selection of beans (nothing
unusual)

But they're in the deep South, and i have no idea if they sell them
around here on the Left Coast :-(

Anahita

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:19:30 -0800
From: lilinah@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: SC - Peas, Peas, Beautiful Peas...

Here's a URL with some history, giving them an old pedigree in India
and pointing to the Spanish, as well as Africans, as bringing them to
the New World:
http://sarasota.extension.ufl.edu/FlaFoodFare/SouthPea.htm

- ----- cut & paste -----

Florida Food Fare
by Jean Meadows
Extension Agent IV
Cooperative Extension Service for Sarasota County

Southern Peas
as written for the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Food Section, August, 29, 1998

Description: a group of peas known by several common names and in
the United States are called "Field peas", "Crowder Peas", "Purple
Hulls", "Cowpeas" and "Black-eyes", but Southern Peas in the
preferred name. There are three types of Southern peas: crowder,
black-eyed and cream. Crowders have a robust flavor and produce a
dark liquor when cooked. Black-eyes have a less robust flavor that
produce a lighter liquor and cream peas are the mildest.

History: originated in India as long as 3,000 years ago, they were
also a staple of Greek and Roman diets. They were later grown in
Africa, then brought to America. In India Southern peas are known
by 50 common names. The black-eyed pea, also known as the cowpea, is
thought to have originated in North Africa, where it has been
eaten for centuries. The peas were probably introduced to the New
World by Spanish explorers and African slaves, and have become a
common food in the southern United States. Southern peas also are
grown to improve soil fertility and structure.

Availability: Most areas of Florida are able to plant two crops a
year of Southern peas so they are available fresh in Florida almost
year round. Peas from north Florida are available on the market now.
Peas are also available in several forms: dried, fresh, canned and
frozen.

Selection and Care: If purchased in the shell, peas are best when
shelled and cooked immediately. Although they will keep refrigerated
4-5 days, the peas will lose moisture to the pods. "The fresher, the
better" is the key to ultimate flavor. If you cannot find fresh peas
or do not want to shell them, then buy them frozen. Frozen peas are
also excellent in flavor and far superior to the canned products.

- ----- end -----

I have not verified the accuracy of the above, but it sounds plausible...

Additionally, i see that white peas are still grown and used in India
- - and they even has "split white peas" - where they appear on
web-search to be known as matar (but that's just "pea" in general),
ghugni, thattaipayir, and arveja. We've got LOTS of Indian and
Pakistani markets around here, so i'll go check them out and see if
they have white peas.

Anahita al-shazhiyya

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:28:31 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD@Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Peas, Peas, Beautiful Peas...

Blackeyed peas are Vigna unguiculata and are of Old World origin (probably
India with variants in China and Africa). Catjangs, cowpeas, and yard-long
beans are all variants. The Italians lump them together with the New World
Phaseolus, but they apparently were known and eaten (as food of the poor) in
Classical Antiquity (see Pliny).

If you look at the language, peas, lentils, favas and grabanzos are
liguistically separate from phaseolus. The confusion comes because the
Vigna and the New World beans were lumped together as fagiola (or fasioli)
and then the term Phaseolus was taken taxonomically for the New World beans.
Because the Vigna are tied linguistically to the modern variant of
phaseolus, they are probably the phaseolus of the Romans.

I refer you to Annibale Carracci's The Bean Eater for visual evidence of
black-eyed peas being eaten in period.

While Platina gives some recipes specifically for phaseolus (and remembering
he predates Columbus and most taxonomic efforts), it is very likely that
black-eyed peas would not be found much outside of peasant dining.

Bear

Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:23:08 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Roasted Chickpeas?

Christine Seelye-King wrote:
> A friend recently sent me this recipe and asked me a question about it. It
> calls for toasted chickpeas. She has dried chickpeas, and wondered what to
> do with them. Roasting the dried chickpeas and then grinding them into a
> flour? Re-hydrating them and then toasting them? She ultimately used
> sesame seeds instead and had them with her this weekend. They were very
> good, but we are still wondering about those garbanzos.
> Anyone?

All I can say is I've seen dry-roasted chick peas, more or less akin to
dry-roasted nuts, and the process seems to leave them more brittle, and
less tough (less likely to break teeth) than dried chick peas. Whether
they're made from dried peas or fresh, I don't know, but if it were me
I'd go looking for them in a Middle Eastern market or by mail order.

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:42:33 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com>
To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Nettles (was viking cook book), rutabegas,
mangetout

Linda M. Kalb wrote:
> The other unfamiliar vegetable name I couldn't quite remember was
> mangetout. Does anyone know what that is and what it looks like?

A mangetout (essentially, French for "eat it all", i.e. the whole
thing), is a small, tender pea pod like a sugar snap pea or a snow pea
pod. As the name implies, you eat the whole thing.

Adamantius

From: lilinah@earthlink.net
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:03:31 -0800
To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peapod, peasecods, codpiece

Olwen commented:
> Is there a difference between peapod and peasecods. One sounds like
> something that I know what it is ~ the other sounds like something a man
> should know what it is.

Pea pods are what we say, peasecods is what Elizabethan English
called the same vegetable. There's even an English dance (period or
just out of period) called "Gathering Peasecods".

Anahita

From: Bronwynmgn@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:50:51 EDT
To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Roasting chickpeas?

The original of the recipe for "Chyches" in Forme of Cury begins thus:

"Take chiches and wrye hem in askes al nyght, other al a day, other lay hem
in hoot aymers"

Using the glossary in the book, this means, "Take chickpeas and cover them in
ashes all night, or all day, or lay them in hot embers", in other words,
roasting them.

Would this be done using fresh chckpeas or dried? How would one go about
doing this today? I could see taking fresh (or canned and drained)
chickpeas, laying them in a shallow dish, and putting them in the oven, but
for how long? what temperature?

Brangwayna Morgan

From: Bronwynmgn@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:10:55 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roasting chickpeas?
To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org

TerryD@Health.State.OK.US writes:
> What's the rest of the recipe? It is a little difficult to determine
> context without it.
>
> That being said, I would suggest that this may be talking about roasting
> them in the pod. I some other recipes where vegetables are roasted in
> embers, the outer layer which has been in contact with the ashes is removed
> before using. This could be done easily with chickpeas in the pod, but
> might not be so easy with shelled chickpeas.
>
> I think I would stay clear of dry chickpeas as they might burn or pop.

Sorry, here' s the rest of the recipe. I don't think they are in the pod, as
it says to wash them after roasting them, not shell them.

Take chiches and wrye hem in askes al nyght, other al a day, other lay hem
in hoot aymers. At morowe, waische hem in clene water, and do hem ouere the
fire with clene water. Seethe hem vp and do therto oyle, garlek hole,
safroun, powdour fort, and salt; seeth it and messe it forth.

Modern English: Take chickpeas and cover them in ashes all night, or all
day, or lay them in hot embers. In the morning, wash them in clean water and
do them over the fire with clean water. Boil them up and do thereto oil,
whole garlic, saffron, powder fort, and salt; boil it and mess it forth.

It seem to me that you could take canned chickpeas, drain them and rinse them
well, and put them in a shallow dish to roast, but for how long?

Brangwayna Morgan

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:43:50 -0700
To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm@efn.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roasting chickpeas?

>It seem to me that you could take canned chickpeas, drain them and rinse them
>well, and put them in a shallow dish to roast, but for how long?

But I think the chickpeas in the recipe have not been cooked, and the
canned ones are. I would think that would make a difference.

(This comes out similar to hummus, BTW. I've made it. Good stuff.)

'Lainie

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:22:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Angus MacIomhair <angus@iamawitch.com>
To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roasting chickpeas?

<snip>
>It seem to me that you could take canned chickpeas, drain them and rinse them
>well, and put them in a shallow dish to roast, but for how long?
>
>Brangwayna Morgan

My local group did some chickpea roasting about a year ago. IIRC they were
roasted @150-175C for 15-20 minutes. They got a little extra colour and they
were slightly crisp on the surface but still moist on the inside. A bit on the
dry side but the nutty flavour was OK. Ordinarily I'm not a big fan of
chickpeas in any shape or form but I liked them roasted.

/Angus

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD@Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks@ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks@ansteorra.org>
Subject: Black-eyed peas was Re: [Sca-cooks] Happy Assumption
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:44:58 -0500

> Are black-eyed peas period?
>
> Margaret, who is a born-and-bred Midwesterner and thus knows naught of
> black-eyed peas

Yes. Vigna sinensis (black-eyed pea, black-eyed bean, cowpea) is definitely
period and is almost certainly the "phaseolus" found in Pliny and Platina.

Bear

Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:04:03 -0700
To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org
From: lilinah@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hello! and questions...

I just looked over Chiquart's cook book at bit more carefully, and i
found a sort of recipe for a pea puree - recipe number 23.

Also, re this recipe, there have been numerous discussions on this
list as to just what "white peas" means. Some folks wonder if they
actually had peas that were white. Since the word "white" is often
used to imply "clean, other cooks think it means dried green peas
with their skins removed.

I wonder if they might not be cream peas. They're Old World, after
all, having an origin in South Asia, and are related to black-eyed
peas, and if IIRC, there's evidence that some legumes in this family
made it to Medieval Europe. I bought some to experiment with,
although i confess the bag is still sitting in my cupboard. I believe
these are readily available in the American South where you are,
Madhavi.

---------------------
23. And first, for your white bruet take almonds according to the quantity
of the potage which you are told to make, and have them blanched and cleaned
and brayed cleanly, and moisten them with the puree of white peas; and when
they are well brayed draw them up with the said broth of peas and put it in
according to the quantity of the said almonds; and put in good white wine
and verjuice and white ginger and grains of paradise, and everything in
measure, and salt, and check that you have not put in too much of anything;
and put sugar in according to the quantity of the broth; and then take a
fair, large, clear and clean pot and put to boil. And when this is at the
sideboard put your fried fish on fair serving dishes and then throw the said
bruet on top; and on the potages which you make from almonds from here on,
when it is to be dressed do not forget the sugar-spice pellets [dragiees]
which should be scattered on top.

And when you have ordered to be made your potages according to the quantity
of the said potages, take your quantities of fish, both marine and fresh
water, and order them to be fried by your diligent assistants; and let them
fry them well and properly while the potages are being made.
---------------------

Of course, you can leave off the dragees, since your recipe calls for
pomegranate seeds :-)

Also, elsewhere in the cookbook, at the end of recipe 29. it says
"turbot should be given green sauce...", so turbot or flounder, if
you can get/afford it, but if, i suspect a nice fine, not coarse,
fleshed white meat fish would be suitable.

Anahita

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker@worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks@ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roman recipes (pre-period? On topic :-p)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 20:25:31 -0500

>I thought chick peas were the same as garbanzo beans. Have I been laboring
>under a delusion all these years? Anne S.

Chickpeas and garbanzo beans are the same thing, Cicer arietinum.

Bear

From: "Sharon Gordon" <gordonse@one.net>
To: <sca-cooks@ansteorra.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:09:33 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fresh chick peas and growing chick peas

The best source of chick pea seeds that I know of is the US chick pea seed
collection. They have literally 100's of different ones. In the early 1990's
the list was over 80 pages long.

They even have some of the tiny chick peas that can be popped (avoid trying to
pop and eat larger chick peas as they will break teeth).

To learn about growing chick peas and accessing the US collection, read the
second edition of Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties by Carol Deppe. She gives
instructions and addresses.

To me the plants are very beautiful. However the ones I have grown tend to have
one to two chick peas per pod. So shelling them out is a rather slow process.
On the other hand, the fresh ones cook a lot faster than the dried, so you gain
something there.

The only place I have seen them growing in a garden open to the general public
is in the Rodale Research gardens in Pennsylvania. I don't know that they grow
them every year, so you might check first. Though if you love gardens,
something else there will bring you joy even if there are no chick peas that
year.

More than likely the place that collects them also has a place (or several) to
grow them out so you might be able to see them that way too if one of them is
near you.

Sharon
gordonse@one.net

<the end>