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peas-msg - 4/6/13

 

Period peas. Pea broth. Recipes.

 

NOTE: See also the files: beans-msg, vegetables-msg, vegetarian-msg, salads-msg,

seeds-msg, soup-msg, grains-msg, bread-msg.

 

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that

I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some

messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.

These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with

seperate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes

extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were

removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I

make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the

individual authors.

 

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these

messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this

time. If  information  is  published  from  these messages, please give

credit to the orignator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

   mark.s.harris at motorola.com            stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

--------

Peas pies hot

Peas pies cold

Peas pies recipe

Please be told!

 

- Doc (who's codeine is working really well now)

Daniel Myers <doc at medievalcookery.com>

---------

 

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:56:59 -0400

Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

 

Dottie Elliott wrote:

> In a related question, what kind of pea is meant when a recipe calls for

> peas? Many of the recipes call for a green or grene pea. However some

> just mention peas. Is this the standard green peas I buy canned/frozen

> today, some of the brown peas I can buy canned or something entirely

> different?

 

There's a standard white pea that is still eaten across Northern Europe.

They look a little like blackeyed peas without the eye, and are just a

bit rounder. I don't know the botanical name offhand. It's doubtless in

Harold McGee. Green peas are the fresh, new variety of this pea, as

opposed to the dried form.

 

They represent one out of a total of four known varieties of legume

found in Medieval Europe, the others being favas, chick peas, and

lentils.

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 08:52:31 -0400

Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

 

david friedman wrote:

> At 12:56 AM -0400 6/7/97, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:

> >Dottie Elliott wrote:

>

> Green peas are the fresh, new variety of this pea, as

> >opposed to the dried form.

>

> I'm not certain, but my memory of McGee's discussion was that our green pea

> was a variant of the old world pea which was harvested immature. I don't

> think it was clear when its use started. I believe the modern term for the

> non-green version is "field pea," but I could easily be wrong.

>

> David/Cariadoc

> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

Sorry! I may have caused some confusion: what I should have said that

what is referred to as green peas in period recipes is the fresh, new

variety of this pea, etc. I understand our standard modern green pea was

developed in France in the 17th-18th century or so...

 

As regards field peas, it had been my understanding that they are the

same thing as cow peas, and, again, similar to the black-eyed pea, and

that they came to places like the Carribean and the American South via

Africa. Whether they are indigenous to Africa or came from South America

with the Rest of The Usual Suspects I don't know offhand. That would be

kind of an interesting line to pursue.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:11:49 -0400

From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <ceridwen at commnections.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet

 

      Yep, I have Gerard's... and we did discuss this a few months back, but

anyway, here goes.

      Gerard states that there are 9 kinds of "kidney bean" known to him (and

quotes from other sources as well). These include some from India,

Egypt, and Brazil, as well as those grown in earlier times in the

Mediterranean. His illustrations resemble our lima bean far more than a

kidney bean, being flat ovals, and the pods are flat also with a

distinct string along the straight side. He says they come in several

colors, white, black, red, purple, and orange. The plants and flowers

resemble our lima bean much more than a string or shell bean, having

narrow leaves well apart on the stalks.

      Among the other legumes, he has lentils(2 kinds) garden peas (6 kinds)

several edible vetches, and the "garden bean" or fava, with 3 kinds

being known (white, yellow, and black)- the black being grown

ornamentally only, not eaten.

     There are no references to what we have now... string beans, although

he says that the favas and "kidney" beans may be cooked immature, in

their pods, and dressed with vinegar and salt as a "daintie meat"

 

Ceridwen

 

 

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:45:52 -0600

From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>

Subject: SC - Green peas

 

Green peas are and were a cheap and plentiful food in our period of study.

Easily grown and dried, recipes abound using (yech....and don't you say a

word, Adamantius) dried peas. Fresh peas were seasonal, but highly prized

for natural sweetness. Several methods were developed to try and preserve

them, from immersing and keeping in water, to sealing in butter for short

periods (this actually works for a time, but the peas lose their color after

a week or so. They still taste good, however). In dried form peas were used

in many ways such as porridge (pottage) and mush, as a thickening agent, as

"pulse" which was flour made in part or wholly with pea, barley, and bean

meal, and in horse-bread, made of the afore mentioned pea and bean/barley

meal. Horse bread was human food, not horse food. These things were all

available to the common man. In fact, Horse Bread would not have made it to

the tables of the nobility, nor would any item made from "pulse".

 

This is true for western Europe and Britain, your author's area of interest.

I cannot speak for other areas that fall into our range of study.

 

Aoife

 

 

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:26:29 -0500 (EST)

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: SC - Peas-current research

 

<< Perhaps Ras could jog my memory----weren't peas a Roman Import to the

British Aisles?

Aoife

>>

 

Peas- History of

 

1) Extensively used by Egytians, Romans, Greeks.

2) Native of Mediterranean basin, Nile Vallry, mountians of Asia.

3) Found in archeological sites in Herault , France dating to 7000 B.C.E.

4) Gathered by Roman Legions from sand dunes around Palestine to supllement

rations.

 

Word origins

 

1) pea( modern coined singular) from pison (Greek)=pisum (Latin)= pise (Old

English)= pease (later English)= pea (coined singuler because pease was

misunderstood as a plural)

 

Use of Peas

 

1) Cultivated peas mainly eaten dry by Romans and in medieval times; e/g/

dried peas cooked with bacon.

 

Green Peas ( Note: Found this info astonishing)

 

1) Sugar peas (mange-tout) introduced to France in 1600 C.E. from Holland.

2) Green peas (petit pois) introduced to France in 1660 C.E. by the Sieur

Audiger returning from a mission to Genoa where he had hoped to learn the

secret of making liqueurs (:-0). The Comte de Soissons shelled the peas. They

were prepared and served in tiny dishes> one for the Queen, one for the

Cardibnal and the King and his brother each had a tiny dish of them. The

official pronouncement was, " All declared with one voice that nothing could

be better or more of a novelty, and that nothing like them, in that season,

had ever been  seen in France before".

 

Curious fact

 

Split peas introduced as food at the end of the Victorian Age.

 

Sources

 

History of Food

Food in Histroy

The Fieldbook of Natural History

The Catalogue of Foods

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:36:47 -0800

From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: SC - SC-reconstructions of medieval grain and legume dishes

 

Hi all from Anne-Marie

as promised, here's my reconstructions for medieval dishes that can be used

to combine grains and legumes. As Cariadoc has pointed out, this is not a

medieval concept, but these are reconstructions of medieval dishes, so I

guess its better than sneaking in your Veggie burger cuz there's nothing

else to eat.

 

Once again, formatting didn't transfer over well, and so if you need

citations, etc, let me know. And, of course, as always, if you choose to

use my recipes, that's great, just let me know and please cite me

appropriately.

Thanks, and enjoy!

- --AM

 

NEW PEAS (le Menagier M-13, c. 1395)_

When you have New Peas, sometimes they are cooked on meat day both in meat

stock and with ground parsley, to make green soup, and this is on a meat

day: and on a fish day, you cook them in milk, with ginger and saffron in

them; and sometimes "a la cretonnée" of which I shall speak later.

With all these peas, whether new or old, you can force them though a sieve,

or a fine or horsehair mesh; but the old peas must be yellowed with ground

saffron of which the water may be put to boil the pease and the saffron

itself with the liquid from the peas.

 

CRETONNÉE (le Menagier M-19, c. 1395)_

Cretonnée of New peas or new beans. Cook them almost to a purée, then

remove from the liquid and take fresh cow's milk and tell her who sells it

to you that she will be in trouble if she has added water to it, for very

often they extend their milk thus, and if it is not quite fresh or has

water into, it will turn. And first boil this milk before you put anything

gin it, or it still could turn; then first grind ginger to give appetite,

and saffron to yellow; it is said that if you want to make a liaison with

egg yolks poured gently in from above, these yolks will yellow it enough

also make the liaison, but milk curdles quicker with egg-yolks than with a

liaison of bread and with saffron to color it. And for this purpose, if you

use bread, it should be white unleavened bread, and moisten it in a bowl

with milk or meat stock, then grind and put it through a sieve; and when

your bread is sieved and your spices have not been sieved, put it all to

boil with your peas; and when it is all cooked, then add your milk and

saffron. You can make still another liaison, with which is the same peas or

beans ground then strained; use whichever you please.

 

2 cups frozen peas

1 cup whole milk

1/2 slice day old white unleavened pita bread

1 T chopped Italian parsley

1 tsp. ginger

1 pinch saffron

salt to taste

 

Boil the peas in the milk until tender. In a cuisinart, purée the milk,

bread, spices and all but 1/2 cup of the cooked peas. Put back in the

saucepan, and add back the reserved peas. Heat gently until warmed through,

adjusting salt to taste.

Serves 4 (1/2 cup of pea soup per person)

 

Reconstruction Notes: This modern version is a blending of the two period

pea recipes. It is a delightfully fresh tasting pea soup. Pease pottage is

mentioned specifically in the menus for boon day meals in period_.

Unfortunately, our cretonnée got ruined and so was not serve. It apparently

had a very unfortunate chemical reaction with the aluminum pot that it was

prepared in, and so ended up tasting like tin foil. We chose to throw it

out rather than ruin everyone's taste buds. We cooks who had tested this

recipe before knew what we were missing, though, and were sorely

disappointed.

 

<snip of bean recipe - see the file beans-msg>

 

 

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:07:20 -0700

From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC - re:period recipes and sources/mustards

 

Hi all from Anne-Marie

Ceridwen says:

> Dried peas : several sources had recipes for soups or purees of "old",

> "yellow" or "white" peas that needed to be soaked to remove the hulls. I

> would guess they are dried peas. Ancient Cookery  pp427 & 444, Forme of

> Cury #71, Le Menagier #1 ,Two Fifteenth Century  p. 33.

 

Here's a bit of kitchen science for y'all.

Unhulled dried peas are indeed white. Boil them and the hulls separate and

float to the top. In fact, Elizabethan recipes for pea pottage specify that

you are to boil them till the hulls separate and then skim them off. Once

boiled and hulls removed, you get a dark green glop indistinguishable from

cooked split peas in taste, texture and appearance.

 

So, I feel confident that I can use split peas for "white peas" in any

application where they are cooked to moosh and skimmed.

 

- --Anne-Marie

 

 

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:18:15 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Seeking period recipes & sources...

 

At 4:49 PM -0400 5/2/98, Kallyr wrote:

>I am seeking period recipes, documentation and sources for the following:

<snip>

 

>Porridge or soup made with dried peas, and whether split peas are period.

 

There are lots of pea recipes in the English/French 14th-15th c sources,

and it isn't clear to me which are dried and which fresh.  For a recipe

where we interpreted it as split peas:

 

Longe Wortes de Pesone

Two Fifteenth Century p. 89

 

Take grene pesyn, and wassh hem clene, And cast hem in a potte, and boyle

hem til they breke; and then take hem vppe fro the fire, and putte hem in

the broth in an other vessell; And lete hem kele; And drawe hem thorgh a

Streynour into a faire potte.  And then take oynones in ij. or iij. peces;

And take hole wortes, and boyle hem in fayre water; And then take hem vppe,

And ley hem on the faire borde, And kutte hem in .iij. or in .iiij. peces;

And caste hem and the oynons into that potte with the drawen pesen, and

late hem boile togidre til they be all tendur, And then take faire oile and

fray, or elles fressh broth of some maner fissh, (if thou maist, oyle a

quantite), And caste thereto saffron, and salt a quantite.  And lete hem

boyle wel togidre til they ben ynogh; and stere hem well euermore, And

serue hem forthe. [end of original; I've substuted th's for thorns.]

 

1 c split peas  wortes: 1/2 lb chard    8 threads saffron

1 whole onion = 5/8 lb  1/4 c olive oil (or fish broth) 1/2 t salt

 

Wash peas, put in 4 c of water, simmer 50 minutes covered, squash the peas

with their liquid through a potato ricer, let cool.  Cut up the onion into

eighths. Simmer onions covered in 3 c water for 20 minutes. Add chard,

cover again, cook 10 minutes more. Remove chard, cut in quarters, combined

everything with peas. Add salt, saffron.  Bring to simmer and add oil,

simmer, stirring constantly, another 10 minutes.

 

>~~MinnaGantz <KALLYR at aol.com>

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:55:43 +0200 (MET DST)

From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>

Subject: SC - pea bread/porrige

 

[Adamatius wrote regarding the fact that most grains/peas were consumed

boiled, not baked, in Roman eras.]

 

This was most likely true for many other regions and times. I have been

told by archaeologists who study early food that it varied from region

to region during the Viking age. The avaiable grains probably played a

large part in this; not everything can be sucessfully baked into bread.

 

One example of the boiled pea and grain dishes is the porrige that has

been reconstructed based on gravefinds in Groetlingbo (the "oe" is

<o-with-umlaut>) on Gotland (10th c, I think). Peas and barley porrige.

Good stuff too, even if I've never tried it with the sheeps milk that

the original calls for.

 

/UlfR

 

P.S. You want a recipie? Why on earth for? Probably want me to give it

in English as well...

 

The Groetlingbo Porrige

(Based on a porrige from a Viking age womans grave on Gotland)

 

Makes 10 servings.

 

3,5 dl barley, preferably whole grain

0,5 dl peas (dried)

0.8 l water

1.3 l milk (sheeps milk in the original)

 

[NB one dl is one tenth of a liter, i.e. 3.4 fl.oz.]

 

* Soak the peas overnight. Throw away the water.

 

* Mix peas, barley and water. Perhaps some salt as well.

 

* Boil in a covered pot for 10 minutes.

 

* Add the milk, stir and bring to a boil.

 

* Allow to swell at a suitable temperature (45-60 min).

 

* Serve with milk, honey and dried or fresh apples or berries.

 

I have no idea if the archaeological record indicated the honey, berries

and apples, or if they were added by the archaeologist that

reconstructed it.

- --

Par Leijonhufvud                             parlei(at)algonet.se

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:20:36 -0600

From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

Somewhere, I have recipes that call for 'pea broth'.  We've discussed

this on the list, I think.  Now, when you cook the dried peas, and you

take the lid off the pot, you have cooked peas at the bottom of the pot

and a brownish/clearish liquid at the top.  Normally, we mush everything

together and go from there.  The recipes don't call for pea soup, bruet,

or pottage.  They want *broth*.  This morning I cooked peas and then

drained them into a bowl.  The fairly clear liquid I have divided and

will freeze for use when I find those recipes.  Not in Chiquart,

apparently, 'find' couldn't produce 'pea broth'.

 

I simmered my ham bone and the trimmings with an onion, carrot, and

celery stalk and a twig of dried rosemary, then strained off that broth.

The soft peas went into the blender with the ham broth, and are back on

simmer with some fresh thyme.  The bone and meat are cooling until I can

pick them and add the meat to the soup.  I think the soup is better,

already, because there's less water in it.

 

What do people think of this form of 'pea broth'?  Or do you all know

this and I'm the only one who didn't?  Does anyone remember, off-hand,

where the pea broth recipes are, before I have to check everything??

 

Regards,

 

Allison

allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA

Kingdom of Aethelmearc

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:41:07 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:

> Somewhere, I have recipes that call for 'pea broth'.  We've discussed

> this on the list, I think.  Now, when you cook the dried peas, and you

> take the lid off the pot, you have cooked peas at the bottom of the pot

> and a brownish/clearish liquid at the top.  Normally, we mush everything

> together and go from there.  The recipes don't call for pea soup, bruet,

> or pottage.  They want *broth*.  This morning I cooked peas and then

> drained them into a bowl.  The fairly clear liquid I have divided and

> will freeze for use when I find those recipes.  Not in Chiquart,

> apparently, 'find' couldn't produce 'pea broth'.

 

Taillevent's exact phrase is "puree de poys", which he uses seven or

eight times in Le Viandier, which is why this issue is so confusing. I

believe Chiquart does use the same expression, but whether an English

translation calls it "pea broth" I don't know. Most translators, AFAIK,

skirt the issue as to what this substance _is_ and simply translate it

as pea puree. From the context it's pretty clearly a liquid, and it is

tempting to assume it is the water peas are boiled in, with or without

the peas strained into it for additional thickening power.

 

I seem to recall Chiquart giving a recipe for pea puree, though...I'll

have to go back and check on this.

 

The question of what pea puree really is, is one of those insoluble

medieval cookery questions, which is why, when most people on the cooks'

list bring up cuskynoles as a sort of thread-ender, you'll find that

Cariadoc asks what pea puree is, the peas or the juice.

 

Adamantius

Østgardr, East

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:59 -0500

From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - questions on pea broth

 

>The question of what pea puree really is, is one of those insoluble

>medieval cookery questions, which is why, when most people on the cooks'

>list bring up cuskynoles as a sort of thread-ender, you'll find that

>Cariadoc asks what pea puree is, the peas or the juice.

>Adamantius

 

The real question that I have, is what kind of peas to use.

Scully in both the French cookery and Art of.. books talks about

medieval peas being _white_, but he never (that I could find)

tells you what to use as a modern substitute or equivalent.

Black-eyed peas behave properly (bursting and puree-ing just fine),

but tend to come out more of a grey sludge color.  Anyone

have any suggestions or experience.

 

       ----wade/Gille

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:16:54 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

allilyn at juno.com writes:

<< What do people think of this form of 'pea broth'?  Or do you all know

this and I'm the only one who didn't?  Does anyone remember, off-hand,

where the pea broth recipes are, before I have to check everything??

 

Allison >>

 

It sounds really tasty. My first question though is what form of peas did you

use? If they were split peas I can see why you fail to get a clear broth.

Split peas were an invention of the Victorian era and did not exist in

period.

 

Dried peas in period were whole dried peas which can be bought at some

markets, especially those that carry Goya products, including the white peas

that are occasionally mentioned in period recipes. These peas when cooked

still have their 'husk' on them and do not turn into a homogenous mush. The

broth is relatively clear depending on the added ingredients.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:25:57 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

Mordonna22 at aol.com wrote:

> The verb "puree" means to crush until a paste is formed, so why is there a

> question as to what "pea puree" means?

 

Because that's a modern usage. Translators like Scully use the word

because it's so close (identical, in fact) to a modern word, in spite of

a slight change in the definition.

 

Period purees were strained, not crushed: they were purified. Two types

of puree were therefore possible. One, which separates liquids from

solids (either of which could be used, or both), and one which combines

[most of] them in a more or less homogeneous, well, puree. Therefore pea

puree, according to the period definition of "puree", could be pea

water, crushed peas, or a smooth mix of the two, depending on various

factors.

 

Adamantius

Østgardr, East

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:32:30 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:

> It sounds really tasty. My first question though is what form of peas did you

> use? If they were split peas I can see why you fail to get a clear broth.

> Split peas were an invention of the Victorian era and did not exist in period.

> Ras

 

On a partially related note, there are, however, numerous period uses

for, and references to, a variety of hulled (as in removal of the

cotyledon, as well as the seed pod), and sometimes chopped, dried beans,

so while split peas don't seem to appear in the medieval European cook's

arsenal of goodies, split favas do.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:46:30 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - split peas

 

Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

> What husk?  I thought one shelled peas.  Also, if they are dried (aren't split

> peas also dried?)  Wouldn't they cook up the same as split peas?

> Also, abput split peas.  What is the point of spliting them? And how is it

> they are Victorian?  What did they use them for or how/why were they invented?

> Phillipa

 

In the case of most peas and beans there is a paper-thin, transparent

layer surrounding the legume. You can eat them, but some consider them,

well, a sort of aesthetic issue, which is one reason why some people

find it necessary to completely puree (in the modern sense whiz whiz)

pea soup...

 

Your basic fresh green pea has this layer, too.

 

Adamantius

Østgardr, East

 

 

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:28:48 -0800

From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC - split peas

 

Hi all from Anne-Marie

 

we are asked:

> What husk?  I thought one shelled peas.  Also, if they are dried (aren't split

> peas also dried?)  Wouldn't they cook up the same as split peas?

> Also, abput split peas.  What is the point of spliting them? And how is it

> they are Victorian?  What did they use them for or how/why were they

> invented?

 

I have used both the modern split pea and the unhulled whole dry peas. In a

side by side batch of pea soup (a la Martha Washington), they both cooked

down. The unhulled peas let loose their thin white skins, which are skinned

off, as per the instructions in the primary source. The resulting glop is

indistinguishable from the regular ol' split pea glop, in color, texture

and taste.

 

By splitting them, you don’t have to hull them or skim off the skins (which

look rather like little eyeballs. ugh!), and they may cook slightly

quicker...

- --AM

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:44:28 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

The recipe for Perre in _Two Fifteenth Century_ says:

 

Take grene pesyn, and boile hem in a potte; And whan they ben y-broke,

drawe the broth a good quantite thorgh a streynour into a potte, And sitte

hit on the fire; and take oynons and parcelly, and hewe hem small togidre,

And caste hem thereto; And take pouder of Canell and peper, and caste

thereto, and lete boile; And take vynegur and pouder of ginger, and caste

thereto; And then take Saffron and salte, a litull quantite, and caste

thereto; And take faire peces of paynmain, or elles of such tendur brede,

and kutte hit yn fere mosselles, and caste there-to; And then serue hit so

forth.

 

When I originally did it, I assumed you were supposed to be putting

everything through the strainer. It later occurred to me that an

alternative reading was that you were using the broth in the dish, and

doing something else with the peas--and that possibility is mentioned at

the end of the recipe in the current edition of the _Miscellany_.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:36:26 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

david friedman wrote:

> The recipe for Perre in _Two Fifteenth Century_ says:

> Take grene pesyn, and boile hem in a potte; And whan they ben y-broke,

> drawe the broth a good quantite thorgh a streynour into a potte,

<snip>

> When I originally did it, I assumed you were supposed to be putting

> everything through the strainer. It later occurred to me that an

> alternative reading was that you were using the broth in the dish, and

> doing something else with the peas--and that possibility is mentioned at

> the end of the recipe in the current edition of the _Miscellany_.

 

One thing to consider is that the recipe does give us a backhanded,

vague guide as to how much of the pea substance is infused/dissolved

into the broth. The peas are boiled until they break open, which

indicates some of the internal pea stuff is going to end up in the

broth, even if strained under normal gravity and no other pressure.

 

But yes, I recall a couple of other recipes where peas are boiled and

strained for the cooking liquid (French Joutes?). My only question is if

anyone has an example of a recipe that does use the drained pea

solids...offhand, I can't think of one, unless you count bread and

animal fodder.

 

Adamantius

Østgardr, East

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:29:09 -0800

From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC - split peas

 

Hi all from Anne-Marie

 

we are asked:

>So are the peas referred to as "white peas" just un-hulled regular peas

>and therefore I can make the split pea soup recipe from the Medieval

>Kitchen that I wanted to make using split peas and it won't be OOP?

 

That's my take on it. Well, its not totally period, but its a reasonable

substitute. (the un hulled peas are WAY more expensive). Others may

disagree, of course! :)

- --AM

PS dunno nuthin 'bout yellow peas...

 

 

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:53:05 -0600

From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

>> These peas when cooked still have there 'husk' on them and do not turn

into a homogenous mush. The broth is relatively clear depending on the

added ingredients.<<

 

But once their husks are off, you get the same pea puree, minus the pea

broth. I'm sparing my arthritic fingers, using the split peas.  My broth

may be a little cloudy, but meat stock is sort of 'beige' too.  If I

really need the pea broth to be clear, I could strain through linen.

 

I realize that Scully refers to 'pea puree', so those were not the

recipes I'm remembering.  They were ones in which the color green would

have been atrocious, as Adamantius points out.  Ras, you said once that

pea beans are navy beans.  Do you use these as a substitute for white

peas, ever?  We get some Goya products, but I'm not sure I've ever seen

white peas.  How long do you cook them before straining, and do you have

to remove husks with the hands, as per Forme of Cury's instructions?

 

Adamantius, what do you use?  And do you always make the full puree for

your recipes?

 

Allison, full of delicious pea soup!

allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA

Kingdom of Aethelmearc

 

 

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:31:22 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

allilyn at juno.com writes:

<< you said once that

pea beans are navy beans.  Do you use these as a substitute for white

peas, ever? >>

 

No. Since they are New World that thought never really occured to me. However,

not a few legume/bean recipes could be prepared using either ingredient and

still produce a very tasty end product.

 

<<We get some Goya products, but I'm not sure I've ever seen white peas.>>

 

The color is not intensely white like  Phaseolus species. It is more on the

greyish white side.

 

<<How long do you cook them before straining, and do you have

to remove husks with the hands, as per Forme of Cury's instructions? >>

 

Until they are done and fully cooked. I have not seen other recipes that say

to remove the contents from the skin exceptpossibly for the one you site

although I imagine they might exist. The skins are not 'inedible' and really

are not objectionable in the mouth. They are 'indigestable' and pass through

you though. When I need to remove the skins, I simple press the cooked peas

through a strainer. The skins stay behind and the pea mush goes through the

holes.

 

Would it be possible to post the original recipe you are referring to as I

don't have ny copy of Curye at hand. Is it possible he is referring to

removing the dry peas from their shells as opposed to their skins? I know

that a few fava recipes include this step.

 

So far as Goya products are concerned, I get my white peas at Giant. The

manager tells me that Goya is a 'difficult' company to deal with and not all

products ordered are delivered or even available on a regular basis or in a

timely fashion. This may have something to do with unavailability in your

area. Dried white peas look like whole dried green peas but are almost white

and wrinkled.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:31:54 -0800

From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: SC - SC: pea recipe

 

hi all from Anne-Marie

 

Heres my recipe for cretonne. OUTSTANDING stuff!!! pretty, light green in

color and wonderfully fresh in taste. We made large batches ahead of time and

reheated in a large double boiler set up to prevent scorching. Oh, and if you

do it in an aluminum pot, it will have the unfortunate taste of tin foil :P.

 

all rights reserved, no reproduction without permission, etc etc etc. Enjoy!

 

NEW PEAS (le Menagier M-13, c. 1395)

When you have New Peas, sometimes they are cooked on meat day both in meat

stock and with ground parsley, to make green soup, and this is on a meat day:

and on a fish day, you cook them in milk, with ginger and saffron in them; and

sometimes "a la cretonn=E9e" of which I shall speak later.

With all these peas, whether new or old, you can force them though a sieve, or

a fine or horsehair mesh; but the old peas must be yellowed with ground saffron

of which the water may be put to boil with the pease and the saffron itself

with the liquid from the peas.

 

CRETONNEE (le Menagier M-19, c. 1395)

Cretonnee of New peas or new beans. Cook them almost to a puree, then remove

from the liquid and take fresh cow's milk and tell her who sells it to you that

she will be in trouble if she has added water to it, for very often they extend

their milk thus, and if it is not quite fresh or has water in it, it will turn.

And first boil this milk before you put anything in it, or it still could turn;

then first grind ginger to give appetite, and saffron to yellow; it is said

that if you want to make a liaison with egg yolks poured gently in from above,

these yolks will yellow it enough and also make the liaison, but milk curdles

quicker with egg-yolks than with a liaison of bread and with saffron to color

it. And for this purpose, if you use bread, it should be white unleavened

bread, and moisten it in a bowl with milk or meat stock, then grind and put it

through a sieve; and when your bread is sieved and your spices have not been

sieved, put it all to boil with your peas; and when it is all cooked, then add

your milk and saffron. You can make still another liaison, which is the same

peas or beans ground then strained; use whichever you please.

 

2 cups frozen peas

1 cup whole milk

1/2 slice day old white unleavened pita bread

1 T chopped Italian parsley

1 tsp. ginger

1 pinch saffron

salt to taste

 

Boil the peas i in the milk until tender. In a cuisinart, pur=E9e the milk,

bread, spices and all but 1/2 cup of the cooked peas. Put back in the saucepan,

and add back the reserved peas. Heat gently until warmed through, adjusting

salt to taste.

Serves 4 (1/2 cup of pea soup per person)

 

Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:27:13 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - new theory on pea broth

 

>LYN M PARKINSON wrote:

>> Somewhere, I have recipes that call for 'pea broth'.  We've discussed

>> this on the list, I think.  Now, when you cook the dried peas, and you

>> take the lid off the pot, you have cooked peas at the bottom of the pot

>> and a brownish/clearish liquid at the top.  Normally, we mush everything

>> together and go from there.  The recipes don't call for pea soup, bruet,

>> or pottage.  They want *broth*.  This morning I cooked peas and then

>> drained them into a bowl.  The fairly clear liquid I have divided and

>> will freeze for use when I find those recipes.  Not in Chiquart,

>> apparently, 'find' couldn't produce 'pea broth'.

 

and Adamantius answered:

>Taillevent's exact phrase is "puree de poys", which he uses seven or

>eight times in Le Viandier, which is why this issue is so confusing. I

>believe Chiquart does use the same expression, but whether an English

>translation calls it "pea broth" I don't know. Most translators, AFAIK,

>skirt the issue as to what this substance _is_ and simply translate it

>as pea puree. From the context it's pretty clearly a liquid, and it is

>tempting to assume it is the water peas are boiled in, with or without

>the peas strained into it for additional thickening power.

...

>The question of what pea puree really is, is one of those insoluble

>medieval cookery questions, which is why, when most people on the cooks'

>list bring up cuskynoles as a sort of thread-ender, you'll find that

>Cariadoc asks what pea puree is, the peas or the juice.

Here is what Menagier de Paris says about making and using pea broth (Janet

Hinson's translation):

 

And first a SOUP of OLD PEAS. It is appropriate to shell them, and to find

out from the people the place the nature of the peas of the area (for

commonly peas do not cook well in well-water: and in other places they cook

well in spring-water and in river water, as in Paris, and in other places,

they do not cook at all in spring-water, as at Besiers) and this known, it

is appropriate to wash them in a pan with warm water, then put in a pot

with warm water on the fire, and boil them until they burst. Then separate

the liquid from the solid, and put the liquid aside, then fill the pea-pot

with warm water and put on the fire and separate a second time, if you wish

to have more liquid...[directions on how to make pea soup out of the solid

part snipped]

 

The liquid from the peas on a meat day is of no account. On a fish day and

in Lent, fry the onions as is told in the preceding chapter, and then put

the oil in which the onions were fried and the onions in along with

bread-crumbs, ginger, cloves and grain, ground:  and sprinkle with vinegar

and wine, and add a little saffron, then adorn the bowl with slices of

bread.

 

Item, with the liquid make a broth on fish days. Do not stir it and take it

soon from the fire, etc.

 

Item, mix the liquid with beet-leaves and it will be a very good soup, but

do not add any more water; and this is for Lent...

 

See here how onions are cooked: in water for a long time before the peas,

and until the water is all used up in cooking; then add some pea-liquid to

cook and to take away the flavor of the water.

 

Also oysters are first washed in hot water, then parboiled, then they must

be partially cooked in the pea-liquid so that their flavor will stay in the

liquid, and not allowed to froth, then remove the oysters and fry them if

you wish, and put some of them in the bowls, and with the rest make a dish.

 

Adamantius later writes:

>My only question is if anyone has an example of a recipe that does use the

>drained pea

>solids...offhand, I can't think of one, unless you count bread and

>animal fodder.

 

See the pea soup recipe above; the rest of it is in Le Menagier on

Cariadoc's web page.

 

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:40:49 EST

From: SigridPW at aol.com

Subject: SC - peas in period

 

There is a traditional Venetian dish called 'risi e bisi' (rice and peas). It

was the official dish served to the Doge on the 25th of April (feast of St.

Mark, patron saint of Venice).  There was a big too-doo over who could bring

the best peas for the Doge.

 

The recipe as I've found it (with the above historical references) in Venice

& Food by Sally Spector.

 

4 servings

 

2T olive oil

5T butter

1 small onion, finely chopped

2 lb fresh (or 8oz frozen) peas

pinch of sugar

1 1/2 qt broth*

10 oz rice "fino" or "super-fino"

salt and pepper

2-3T minced fresh parsley

freshly grated Parmesan cheese

 

1) Shell the peas.  *Rinse the pods and put them in 2qt. salted water OR put

in a bouillon cube and no salt.  Boil very slowly for one hour.

 

2) Strain broth, pressing liquid out of the pods and discard them.  If using

bouillon for the liquid, prepare 1 1/2 qt of it

 

3) Put onion, oil and 2 1/2T butter in a pot.  Cook gently until golden.

 

4) Add the peas with a pinch of sugar, and a bit of broth.  Cook gently,

stirring occasionally, until they soften (add frozen peas straight from the

freezer, do not defrost)

 

5) When the liquid has evaporated and the mixture is "dry", add the rice.

raise the heat and mix quickly.

 

6) Pour in a ladle of hot broth.  Should be boiling.  Stir constantly,

adding

a ladle of broth when the liquid has reduced, but keeping the rice from

sticking. (no mean trick, that!) After about 18 minutes, the rice should be

done: if it's still too crunchy, cook another minute or two.

 

7) Turn off heat.  Taste for salt and pepper.  Add a ladle of broth, the

remaining butter and the parsley, but do not mix them in.  Cover pot and let

sit on the burner 2-3 minutes, then gently stir together.

 

8) serve immediately with freshly grated parmesan cheese

 

The author goes on to point out that tiny fresh peas are best.  She also

states that according to Venetian legend, there was to be one pea for each

grain of rice for the Doge's bowl.

 

Imagine how green and fresh and spring-like this would be!  I am hoping to

include this in my menu for the banquet for Summergate's Anniversary.

 

Lady Giuglia Madelena Sarducci

 

 

Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:18:09 -0800

From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

 

Hi all from Anne-Marie

 

Ras sez that one should use whole snap peas instead of shelled ones for le

menagiers cretonnee.

 

I disagree, for several reasons...(what, me and Ras disagree???? Heeaven

forfend! :))

 

1. the same source contatins a recipe for "new peas in the pod". These

definately call for whole peas. If the cretonnee recipe meant to use the

same items, wouldnt it have said so? I mean, the "peas in the pod" were to

be different enough that he felt he needed to mention that they were in the

pod.

 

2. There are other cretonnee type recipes in the French corpus, including

Taillevent. Taillevent specifies to "cook them to mush and drain them".

This doenst work if you're thinking of using the mange tout type peas..you

never get the mush, and theres no squishing step to make them mush.

 

3. My logic says that both the New PEas and the Cretonne PEas are the same

ones, just that one is in the pod and the other shelled. I could be wrong,

of course. Now, if you're trying to approximate a taste and think that the

modern frozen peas taste radically different, I could see using mange tout

peas, but the texture would be so different I would be hesitant to do so.

I've grown modnern mange touts large enough to shell and eat and they dont

taste really siginifantly differnt from the frozen ones. The skins are

tougher, but that's about it (according to my memory, anyway).

 

Again, each of us has to decide for ourselves how we choose to interpret

such things...we can never really know, until they find a stash of peas in

a medieval midden and do some DNA fingerprinting on them...:)_

 

- --AM

 

 

Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:11:53 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - SC: pea recipe

 

allilyn at juno.com writes:

<< But the recipes called for peas, not pea pods.  Ever tried making pea pod

soup?

 

Allison >>

 

As a matter of fact , yes. They turn to mush in a very short time. :-).

IIRC, getting the peas to a state of mush was one of the instructions.

 

Also the recipe in question can also be made by using dried peas . My question

is about whether the recipe was intended to be used with fresh green shelled

peas. I don't personally think so.

 

Granted that AM believes that a corrobarating recipe in the same tome which is

very similar does call for peas in the pod and in this she is most certainly

correct. However, the existence of a similar recipe does not , IMO,

necessarily translate into the fact that this one would use fresh green

peas.

 

Instructions to remove the peas from their pods could also refer to removing

dried peas from their husks. Another possible twist on the interpretation

might be that the pea in pod version was meant for early summer use and the

peas out of pod version was meant to be used in the off season.with dried

peas.

 

As was noted there is a definite logic to AM's theory. My main concern is that

all the references to period use of peas that I am AWARE of points to the use

of dried peas or podded sugar peas. The illogical part, for me, is that sugar

peas, and indeed, almost all non-petite pois varieties of peas have a VERY

short period of time, a matter of a couple of days, when they are sweet and

succulent enough to be used as fresh shelled peas. Their palatability at this

stage is of such a short duration that I find it inexplicable why such a

recipe for their use would be included in the manuscript. at all.

 

In the meantime, we have a great tasting redaction from AM that might be

correct so why not use it? :-)

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:21:19 -0600

From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>

Subject: Re: SC - More greene pease

 

Was AM's recipe from deLaVarenne?  I know she has it.  Just found this,

and think it may be a sugar pea pod type to try.

 

87. Greene pease.  Passe them, if you will, in the panne with butter, and

seeth them with cabidge, lettice, or with purslaine; after they are well

sod with a bundle of hearbs, and well seasoned, serve them garnished with

lettice. You may dresse and season them with creame, as the sparagus

whereof mention is madeabove, in the article 79,. of sparagus with

creame.

 

79 says to "stove them a very little, with very new creame, and serve if

you will with a little nutmeg."

 

These are from the Falconwood Reprint edition.

 

I think I'll try mint and rosemary if I make this.

 

Allison

allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA

Kingdom of Aethelmearc

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:39:45 -0600

From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

 

Pontormo, Jacopo. _Diario_, the diary of the painter, quotes him as

saying that he had fresh, young peas for dinner.  The bibliography did

not give any publication information, and is in Italian.  Furthermore,

this is late period, which I know you think is 'scribal error', Ras, but

within our total period people did begin to eat green peas that were not

dried or mush.  These can work for a late feast, Italian in theme,

French, according to the quotes people put up earlier, and possibly other

cultures as well.

 

Allison

allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA

Kingdom of Aethelmearc

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:11:02 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

 

Sweet Lady,

 

In a message dated 2/7/99 4:05:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, allilyn at juno.com

writes:

 

<< Pontormo, Jacopo. _Diario_, the diary of the painter, quotes him as

saying that he had fresh, young peas for dinner. >>

 

Out of the pod? In the pod? I see no justification for assuming he meant out

of the pod in this quote. I am aware that the idea of eating fresh shelled

peas was introduced to France by an Italian church official through the

French court. Here we have no disagreement.

 

What is interesting is that this quote apperently shows us that at the very

least 'young peas' in whatever form they happened to be were being eaten

outside the noble class. For those researching late Italian peasant or non-

noblemen's food this is an exciting bit of information.

 

<<but within our total period people did begin to eat green peas that were

not dried or mush. >>

 

I agree. There is some evidence that fresh shelled green peas of the petite

pois variety may have been eaten in certain sections of Italy in the early

stages of modern cookery. We have no argument here. However, I do not agree

that they were used outside of Italy within even SCAdianly excepted time

limits. Their introduction into France is documented as 1681 C.E. and then

only a handful of French royals ate them as a novel treat on a single

occasion. The following introduction into the general popular diet could not

have been achieved until later than that.  My math may be a little off but

this appears to be well outside the time frame of the SCA.

 

<< These can work for a late feast, Italian in theme,>>

 

Correct. But to use this as a spring board for using them in other cuisines

in late period is, IMO, an error.

 

<< French, according to the quotes people put up earlier, >>

 

My interpretation of that data does not conclude with the same observations

you have arrived at. The French recipes work very well without the use of

fresh shelled green peas and , IMO, there is no justification for doing so

before 1681 C.E. in France and certainly none within period in places such

as England.

 

<<and possibly other cultures as well.>>

 

On what basis do you make the above statement? Every known authority has

clearly indicated the use of dried peas (out of season) and podded peas (in

season) throughout the middle ages. The only possible exception to this is

the one you indicated referring to Italian cuisine SFAIK.

 

<< Allison >>

 

al-Sayyid Ras

 

 

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:16:51 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

 

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:

> Actually, Ras, I can't think of any source that I know that has peas and

> pods eaten.  They may be in some of my books and I haven't seen them, or

> noticed them.  With the long habit of eating the dried, shelled peas I

> would have expected to read that people made a point of saying "...and

> they ate the pea pods, too!"  Pontormo only comments on the peas, not the

> peapods.  Doesn't prove anything, since he didn't paint himself eating

> them.

 

I've been meaning to throw a word or two into this one for a while,

FWIW. I think in cases where dried peas are pretty clearly intended

(probably the case in recipes calling simply for "peas"), the peas are

shelled because they'd be likely to get moldy before drying

sufficiently. Bearing in mind, of course, that in medieval Europe there

was an entire technology developed (and evidently fairly widely used) to

keep beans from molding in storage from insufficient drying [see

references to canebynes, frizzled beans, etc.], so evidently this was a

reasonable concern.

 

Conversely, the recipes calling for new or green peas specify, well, new

or green peas, pease, or peysoun, but then there are some, I believe,

which refer to peasecods. I doubt the shells from peas are what they're

talking about (although I suppose it's possible).

 

Anyway, I believe that in _most_ instances if a recipe called for peas

in the shell the reference would be pretty specific.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:51:19 EST

From: THLRenata at aol.com

Subject: SC - Another Pea Recipe

 

I found this one in The Good Huswife's Jewell by Thomas Dawson 1596:

 

To make a close Tarte of Greene Pease

 

Take half a peck of greene Pease, sheale them and seeth them, and cast them

into a cullender, and let the water go from them then put them into the Tart

whole, & season then with Pepper, saffron & salte, and a dish of sweet butter,

close and bake him almost one houre, then drawe him, and put to him a little

Vergice, and shake them and set them into the Ovven againe, and so serve it.

 

These look like fresh shelled peas to me. How much is half a peck?  And did

the term "sweet butter" refer to unsalted butter as it does today?

 

Renata

Barony of Altavia

Kingdom of Caid

Los Angeles, CA

 

 

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:28:35 GMT

From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Help in getting to plan medieval luncheon for the college union

 

>perhaps a pea pottage

 

Use the very first one in the book by Odile Redon, it's flavored with ginger

and thickened with egg (my new version of pea soup for the family keeps the

ginger, skips the egg.)  I've recently got a stack of books from the library

that include the Digby book and one by a contemporary (?) John Evelyn.  I

recall reading another pea soup with ginger recipe, probably in one of those

as I haven't gotten to the others yet.  But I was skimming so many while at

the library that it could be in some other random book. I'll double check.

 

Bonne

 

 

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:08:58 -0800

From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC - legumes (was: survival/ camp cooking)

 

hey all from Anne-Marie

Ras sez:

> Split peas would be a good thing for a 'survival' kit but they are not

> 'period.' The process used for producing split peas was introduced in the

> late 19th century CE.

 

yes, but my experiements show that the final result is indistinguishable

whichever you start with. In fact, the recipes that specify to start with

dry peas in the later corpus I was looking at specify that you are to boil

them until the hulls remove and then skim off the skins. Whether we started

with regular modern split peas or the medieval whole dried peas, both

yielded a pea green glop.

 

interestingly, the whole dried peas are "white"...perhaps the source of the

"white peas" vs green peas distiniction in the earlier sources? (ie dried

vs fresh). dunno, but its intereseting to think about! :)

 

Brighid asks:

 

>Dried whole peas are late period, however.  Don't know how readily

>available they are.  I think I've seen them in Indian grocery stores.

>(Maybe health food stores, too?)

 

my regular grocery store carries them in the ethnic bulk food section (OK,

its regular for me, but Ballard Market is anything but ordinary :))

 

- --AM

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:30:08 -0800

From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: white peas...was Re: SC - Crown Tourney feast

 

hey all from Anne-Marie

Lucrezia tells us:

- - white peas = chickpeas (oops)

 

actually, I dont know that this is true. Chickpeas or ceci beans or

garbanzos are indeed in the pea family, but my reading suggests that white

peas are peas.

 

see, when you take whole green peas and dry them, the outer husk turns

white, and they look, well, white.

 

Interestingly, when you boil them, as in the period pea soup recipes from

Martha Washington etc, the skins come off (just like the recipe describes),

and you can skim them off (just like the recipe describes) and you end up

with green pea glop, just as if you had startted with modern split peas.

 

go figure!

if any one has any evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear about it...

 

- --AM, who is very jealous of Lucruztias neat event in Wales :)

 

 

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:38:29 -0000

From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>

Subject: white peas...was Re: SC - Crown Tourney feast

 

      hey all from Anne-Marie

      Lucrezia tells us:

      - - white peas = chickpeas (oops)

      actually, I dont know that this is true. Chickpeas or ceci beans or

      garbanzos are indeed in the pea family, but my reading suggests that

white peas are peas. see, when you take whole green peas and dry them, the

outer husk turns white, and they look, well, white.

      Interestingly, when you boil them, as in the period pea soup recipes

from Martha Washington etc, the skins come off (just like the recipe

describes), and you can skim them off (just like the recipe describes) and

you end up with green pea glop, just as if you had startted with modern

split peas.go figure! if any one has any evidence to the contrary, I'd love

to hear about it...

      - --AM, who is very jealous of Lucruztias neat event in Wales :)

 

Hmm, well the recipe I used was:

 

Pesoun of Almayne  FoC.72

Take white pesoun; wisshe hem. Seeth hem a grete while. Take hem vp and cole

hem thurgh a cloth; wisshe hem in colde water til the hulles go off. Cast

hem in a pot and couere hem that no breth go out, and boile hem right wel,

and cast therinne gode mylke of almaundes and a pertye of flour of rys with

powdour gynger, safroun, & salt.

 

I was going on the premise that as this was a Forme of Cury (ie English)

recipe, they were using un-shucked peas, not chickpeas.

What do people think? Peas or chickpeas?

 

Al Servizio Vostro, e del Sogno

Lucretzia

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia   |  mka Tina Nevin

Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK

 

 

Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:58:33 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Truck Crops

 

> The field pea, IIRC, is descended from the N. African pea that is like

> our black-eyed pea.

 

> Allison,     allilyn at juno.com

 

No, the field pea is Pisum sativum.  The black-eyed pea is Vigna sinensis

and is related to the yard-long bean, Vigna unguiculata.  They are both

members of the pulse family, but then, so is carob.

 

In pre-Columbian Europe, the Latin "phaseolus" is used to describe members

of genus Vigna and was later applied to the New World beans shaped like a

kidney. Phaseolus then became the genus name for the New World beans.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:41:11 EDT

From: allilyn at juno.com

Subject: Re: SC - Broda and other chickpea recipes

 

>From Chiquart:

 

76. Again syseros: and to give understanding to him who will prepare the

syseros let him take his chick-peas and pick them over grain by grain

such that there remains nothing but the chick-peas themselves, and then

wash them in three or four changes of lukewarm water and put them to

boil; and, being boiled, let him remove them from this water and put in

other fresh water and put back to boil and, being boiled put them to rest

in the said pot until the next day; and when the next day comes drain the

water off them and put in again other fresh water and put to boil with a

very little salt, almond oil, and parsley together with its roots well

picked over and cleaned -- and these roots should be scraped and very

well washed -- and a little sage. And do not put in anything else without

the doctor's order, and if he tells you to put in a little cinnamon and a

little verjuice to give it a little flavor, put them in; otherwise not.

[this differs from the following recipes by the addition of parsley,

parsley root, sage, and possibly cinnamon and verjuice]

      Using canned chick peas, drain, rinse, add fresh water, salt,

almond oil, and parsley, and parsley roots, sage.  Cinnamon and verjuice

may be added.  [possibly, if almond oil is not available, olive oil and

almond extract might be used.] APdeT

 

>From Forme of Curye:

73. Chyches.  Chickpeas.  Take chickpeas and lay them in hot ashes all

night or all day, or else lay them in hot embers.  In the morning, wash

them in clean water, and cook them over the fire with clean water.  Bring

to a simmer and add oil, whole garlic cloves, saffron, powder forte and

salt; simmer until done and dish it up.

 

Regards,

Allison,     allilyn at juno.com

 

 

Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:08:38 EDT

From: Gerekr at aol.com

Subject: Re:  SC - Protectorate Feast 2 - No recipes

 

>From: TerryD at Health.State.OK.US (Decker, Terry D.)

>I also have one other problem.  I'm short one dish -- Elizabethan,

>vegetable, preferably green, definitely not spinach.  Anyone got any ideas

>or recipes?

>Bear

 

Having had my Lorwin forever (25+ yrs), she was my first reaction...

 

Let's see, what's "vegetive", not spinach and looks like it would come

out green?  

 

To stewe hartechockes in creme - John Murrell, A Booke of cookerie, 1621

"Take the thickest bottomes of the thickest Hartechockes being very

tender boyled, and stew them in a little butter and vinegar, whole Mace

and Sugar, then take halfe a pinte of sweete Cream boyled with whole

Mace, straine it with the yolkes of two-new-laid egges, and brewe them

together with halfe a ladlefull of the best thicke butter and vinegar,

and a little Sugar, so dish up the bottomes of the Hartechockes, & lay it

with sippets of a slickt Lemon round about, then poure your sauce on the

toppe of the Hartechockes, and sticke them full of fryde tosts upright

scrape on a little Sugar and serve it to the table hot."

 

To boyle ... peascods - the same

"Take greene sugar Pease when the pods bee but young, and pull out the

string of the backe of the podde, and picke the huske of the stalkes

ends, and as many as you can take up in your hand at three several times,

put them into the pipkin, with halfe a pound of sweete Butter, a quarter

of a pint of faire water, a little grosse Pepper, Salt, and Oyle of Mace,

and let them stue very softly until they bee very tender, then put in the

yolkes of two or three rawe egges strained with six spoonefuls of Sacke,

and as much Vinegar, put it into your Peascods and brew them with a

ladle, then dish them up."

 

<snip of salad recipes. See salads-msg>

 

Well, do you want period or Elizabethan?  Looks like you might squeeze

the Murrell in, but the May looks pretty late.  Here's hoping others come

up with references a bit more in period!  

 

Chimene

 

 

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:28:01 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - OOP   dried split peas

 

Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

> Sorry for the off topic / oop question but I'm stumped.

> Tonight I was making dal using yellow split peas. I cooked the peas for 20

> minutes and then added rice and continued to cook them for an additional

> hour,  The split peas never got totally soft. Can anyone tell me why?

> Thanks

> Phillipa

 

pH is a factor in getting dried legumes soft. You'll note that Le

Managier has a section on which peas and, I think, beans, are best from

which locations, and I believe he discusses which area's water is best

for cooking them. Similarly, Apicius frequently mentions adding cooking

soda (probably sodium carbonate or what we call washing soda, but

perfectly edible in small quantities, just as we use sodium bicarb) to

address this issue. The bottom line is that dried peas and beans don't

seem to like acid pH cooking liquids as well as they like neutral or

basic (alkaline) liquids.

 

I'm not sure why this would be an issue in the case of dal, though,

unless you have some kind of temporary acidic hard water or something.

You might try adding a tiny pinch of soda next time.

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:17:59 EST

From: Seton1355 at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - OOP   dried split peas

 

<<

Maybe you should have soaked them first...I am assuming here that they were

dried.  I know that, with bean soup, you have to soak the beans overnight,

then cook them for several hours. >>

 

Yes, I'm thinking that now, after the fact.  But I didn't think that split

peas had to be soaked. Oh well, live and learn.

 

Phillipa

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:32:48 -0800 (PST)

From: Nisha Martin <nishamartin at yahoo.com>

Subject: SC - split peas and other beans.

 

Split peas dont usually have to be soaked. Neither do

lentils. There are a few things that can make them

cook unevenly. One is if they are too old. The other

is too much salt in the water, which is why most

cookbooks will tell you to season in the last few

minutes of cooking, and another is cooking them at a

boil instead of a simmer. This goes for most beans,

whether you need to soak them or not.

 

Nisha

 

 

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:13:27 -0800

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: SC - Peas, Peas, Beautiful Peas...

 

Thanks to Andrea's hint, i searched the web and found a wholesaler of

dried cream peas

http://www.camelliabeans.com/

They have all sorts of dried peas (green, yellow, cream, field,

crowder, and blackeye) as well as one kind of lentil (i can get at

least three kinds around here) and a selection of beans (nothing

unusual)

 

But they're in the deep South, and i have no idea if they sell them

around here on the Left Coast :-(

 

Anahita

 

 

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:19:30 -0800

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: SC - Peas, Peas, Beautiful Peas...

 

Here's a URL with some history, giving them an old pedigree in India

and pointing to the Spanish, as well as Africans, as bringing them to

the New World:

http://sarasota.extension.ufl.edu/FlaFoodFare/SouthPea.htm

 

- ----- cut & paste -----

 

Florida Food Fare

by Jean Meadows

Extension Agent IV

Cooperative Extension Service for Sarasota County

 

Southern Peas

as written for the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Food Section, August, 29, 1998

 

Description: a group of peas known by several common names and in

the United States are called "Field peas", "Crowder Peas", "Purple

Hulls", "Cowpeas"  and "Black-eyes", but Southern Peas in the

preferred name.  There are three types of Southern peas: crowder,

black-eyed and cream. Crowders have a robust flavor and produce a

dark liquor when cooked.   Black-eyes have a less robust flavor that

produce a lighter liquor and cream peas are the mildest.

 

History:   originated in India as long as 3,000 years ago, they were

also a staple of Greek and Roman diets.  They were later grown in

Africa, then brought to America.   In India Southern peas are known

by 50 common names.  The black-eyed pea, also known as the cowpea, is

thought to have originated  in North Africa,  where it  has been

eaten for centuries.  The peas were probably introduced to the New

World by Spanish explorers and African slaves, and have become a

common food in the southern United States.  Southern peas also are

grown to improve soil fertility and structure.

 

Availability: Most areas of Florida are able to plant two crops a

year of Southern peas so they are available fresh in Florida almost

year round. Peas from north Florida are available on the market now.

Peas are also available in several forms: dried, fresh, canned and

frozen.

 

Selection and Care: If purchased in the shell, peas are best when

shelled and cooked immediately.  Although they will keep refrigerated

4-5 days, the peas will lose moisture to the pods.  "The fresher, the

better" is the key to ultimate flavor.  If you cannot find fresh peas

or do not want to shell them, then buy them frozen.  Frozen peas are

also excellent in flavor and far superior to the canned products.

 

- ----- end -----

 

I have not verified the accuracy of the above, but it sounds plausible...

 

Additionally, i see that white peas are still grown and used in India

- - and they even has "split white peas" - where they appear on

web-search to be known as matar (but that's just "pea" in general),

ghugni, thattaipayir, and arveja. We've got LOTS of Indian and

Pakistani markets around here, so i'll go check them out and see if

they have white peas.

 

Anahita al-shazhiyya

 

 

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:28:31 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Peas, Peas, Beautiful Peas...

 

Blackeyed peas are Vigna unguiculata and are of Old World origin (probably

India with variants in China and Africa).  Catjangs, cowpeas, and yard-long

beans are all variants.  The Italians lump them together with the New World

Phaseolus, but they apparently were known and eaten (as food of the poor) in

Classical Antiquity (see Pliny).

 

If you look at the language, peas, lentils, favas and grabanzos are

liguistically separate from phaseolus.  The confusion comes because the

Vigna and the New World beans were lumped together as fagiola (or fasioli)

and then the term Phaseolus was taken taxonomically for the New World beans.

Because the Vigna are tied linguistically to the modern variant of

phaseolus, they are probably the phaseolus of the Romans.    

 

I refer you to Annibale Carracci's The Bean Eater for visual evidence of

black-eyed peas being eaten in period.

 

While Platina gives some recipes specifically for phaseolus (and remembering

he predates Columbus and most taxonomic efforts), it is very likely that

black-eyed peas would not be found much outside of peasant dining.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:42:33 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Nettles (was viking cook book), rutabegas,

mangetout

 

Linda M. Kalb wrote:

> The other unfamiliar vegetable name I couldn't quite remember was

> mangetout.  Does anyone know what that is and what it looks like?

 

A mangetout (essentially, French for "eat it all", i.e. the whole

thing), is a small, tender pea pod like a sugar snap pea or a snow pea

pod. As the name implies, you eat the whole thing.

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:03:31 -0800

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peapod, peasecods, codpiece

 

Olwen commented:

> Is there a difference between peapod and peasecods.  One sounds like

> something that I know what it is ~ the other sounds like something a man

> should know what it is.

 

Pea pods are what we say, peasecods is what Elizabethan English

called the same vegetable. There's even an English dance (period or

just out of period) called "Gathering Peasecods".

 

Anahita

 

 

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Black-eyed peas was Re: [Sca-cooks] Happy Assumption

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:44:58 -0500

 

> Are black-eyed peas period?

> Margaret, who is a born-and-bred Midwesterner and thus knows naught of

> black-eyed peas

 

Yes. Vigna sinensis (black-eyed pea, black-eyed bean, cowpea) is definitely

period and is almost certainly the "phaseolus" found in Pliny and Platina.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:04:03 -0700

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hello! and questions...

 

I just looked over Chiquart's cook book at bit more carefully, and i

found a sort of recipe for a pea puree - recipe number 23.

 

Also, re this recipe, there have been numerous discussions on this

list as to just what "white peas" means. Some folks wonder if they

actually had peas that were white. Since the word "white" is often

used to imply "clean, other cooks think it means dried green peas

with their skins removed.

 

I wonder if they might not be cream peas. They're Old World, after

all, having an origin in South Asia, and are related to black-eyed

peas, and if IIRC, there's evidence that some legumes in this family

made it to Medieval Europe. I bought some to experiment with,

although i confess the bag is still sitting in my cupboard. I believe

these are readily available in the American South where you are,

Madhavi.

 

---------------------

23. And first, for your white bruet take almonds according to the quantity

of the potage which you are told to make, and have them blanched and cleaned

and brayed cleanly, and moisten them with the puree of white peas; and when

they are well brayed draw them up with the said broth of peas and put it in

according to the quantity of the said almonds; and put in good white wine

and verjuice and white ginger and grains of paradise, and everything in

measure, and salt, and check that you have not put in too much of anything;

and put sugar in according to the quantity of the broth; and then take a

fair, large, clear and clean pot and put to boil. And when this is at the

sideboard put your fried fish on fair serving dishes and then throw the said

bruet on top; and on the potages which you make from almonds from here on,

when it is to be dressed do not forget the sugar-spice pellets [dragiees]

which should be scattered on top.

 

And when you have ordered to be made your potages according to the quantity

of the said potages, take your quantities of fish, both marine and fresh

water, and order them to be fried by your diligent assistants; and let them

fry them well and properly while the potages are being made.

---------------------

 

Of course, you can leave off the dragees, since your recipe calls for

pomegranate seeds :-)

 

Also, elsewhere in the cookbook, at the end of recipe 29. it says

"turbot should be given green sauce...", so turbot or flounder, if

you can get/afford it, but if, i suspect a nice fine, not coarse,

fleshed white meat fish would be suitable.

 

Anahita

 

 

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:42:33 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Nettles (was viking cook book), rutabegas,

mangetout

 

Linda M. Kalb wrote:

> The other unfamiliar vegetable name I couldn't quite remember was

> mangetout.  Does anyone know what that is and what it looks like?

 

A mangetout (essentially, French for "eat it all", i.e. the whole

thing), is a small, tender pea pod like a sugar snap pea or a snow pea

pod. As the name implies, you eat the whole thing.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:15:24 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] roasted peas?

 

I have to think that these would have been done with dried peas.

Cook them. Sieve them. Mix with eggs and cook (fry?) in butter.

Then take the cooled peas/eggs mixture and spit those to be roasted.

 

This recipe or one very like it also appears in Daz Buch von Guter Spise.

In Merlitta Adamson's translation recipe 45 is:

 

45. A tasty little dish.

Take boiled peas, press them through a sieve, add the same quanity of eggs as there are peas, and cook this in butter, not too greasy. Let them cool off,  

cut them in bite-sized pieces, and put them on a spit. Roast them well, baste  

them with eggs and with herbs, and serve.

 

Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway

 

 

Maggie MacDonald wrote: snipped

> The Calafian Cook's guild is looking at working with a translation by

> Thomas Gloning ( I think) of Dos KochBoch des Meisters Erhard.

> The particular recipe one of our members is really keen on trying involves

> roasting peas on a spit. Ok, so what kind of peas would you use?

> Maggie MacD.

 

 

From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: SCA-Cooks, Roasted Peas

Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:18:14 +0000

 

When I read Maggie's original post on this and saw there were folks even

considering using frozen peas I was surprized.  Now I am reading this

missive. There would be a big difference between dry and frozen peas.

Besides the sheer cost of getting enough frozen peas to try to cook  

down to a stiff mush, I am not sure it would even work.

Now working this recipe beginning with dry peas would be a snap.  I have

used peas paste to sculpt edible centerpieces and can quite easily see how the mash could be made to adhere to a skewer. I am wondering about the "cover it with egg" part.  It seems I have read a couple other recipes where

you would dip a very hot piece of food (or pour over) in to a beaten egg

which would then adhere in a very thin layer and cook in the residue  

heat of the food.  Maybe or maybe wrapping in a thin egg crepe.

 

Olwen

 

 

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:40:32 -0500

From: "Tom Bilodeau" <tirloch at ravenstreet.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] cowpeas?

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

>>> 

> Hi everyone. We found some 'cow peas' at the Indian market, and I think

> they are period, but I haven't found reference to them in a cursory

> look through the sources I've got to hand. Anyone have solid knowledge

> about this?

 

I'm not sure this counts as solid knowledge, but they came from India

and at least one website says they were known in 14th c Italy.

 

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/plantanswers/publications/

vegetabletravelers/cowpeas.html

<<< 

 

Cowpeas are cited in the Oxford Book of Food.  They are also know as

black-eyed peas in the USA.  The Oxford citation says the Spanish  

brought

them to the New World in the 16th Century.

 

Tirloch

 

 

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:02:57 -0500

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pease porridge?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Oh, boy. I'm really confused now.

 

>> From discussions on this list since at least 1997, and my own  

>> independent study, I am not happy with any of the common "peas" available.

> "English" peas or garden peas were developed fairly recently in

> France, I believe.

 

Ok, this is what the Encyclopedia Britannica thinks about peas:

"Pisum sativum is the common garden pea of the Western world. While

their origins have not been definitely determined, it is known that

these legumes are one of the oldest of cultivated crops; fossil remains

have been found in Swiss lake villages."

 

I know that 'edible-podded peas' are a relatively new development,

though it appears that very young peascods were eaten in England in

period.

 

> Black eyed peas and field peas and cow peas and

> purple crowders are all related and come out of Africa.

 

"cowpea also called  black-eyed pea

cultivated forms of Vigna unguiculata, annual plants within the pea

family (Fabaceae). In other countries they are commonly known as China

bean, or black-eyed bean. The plants are believed to be native to India

and the Middle East but in early times were cultivated in China. "

 

According to the US Department of Agriculture, field peas are a variety

of Pisum sativum.

 

"Field pea is a high-quality, high-protein crop which is native to

southwest Asia.  Field pea was one of the first crops cultivated by man.

 

> Navy peas, and

> white peas found on most grocery shelves are of New World origin.

 

I've never seen anything called 'Navy Peas', though I'm familiar with

'navy beans' and 'white beans'. White peas are harder to find, I usually

find green split peas. I do see 'white pea beans' but they are beans,

not peas.

 

I've seen both yellow and white peas for sale (I assumed that yellow

peas were merely a different variety of Pisum Sativium?)

 

> The

> garden peas named by Gerard do not seem available, having been replaced

> in the main by the varieties developed in the 17th and 18th century.

 

While the varieties have been developed, the species is the same, pisum

sativium. Different varieties of lentils have also been developed over

time. I've looked at the pictures of garden peas in Gerard, and he

doesn't give a description of whether the dried peas are green or yellow

(like our modern split peas) because he says peas need no description.

 

However, Le menagier suggests that dried peas need yellowing:

 

"With all these peas, whether old or new, you can force them through a

sieve, or a fine or horsehair mesh; but the old peas must be yellowed

with ground saffron of which the water may be put to boil with the peas

and the saffron itself with the liquid from the peas."

 

> Of the nine peas and beans listed by Gerard, only four still seem to be

> readily available: lentils, favas, chick peas, and a standard white pea

> still eaten in Western Europe according to Adamantius.

 

> The "green" pea

> mentioned in many recipes of our time seem to be the fresh, immature

> form of this same white pea.  Because I don't have access or knowledge

> of that one, I choose to use lentils, which are readily available, and

> lend themselves quite well to the recipes calling for peas.

> Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com> wrote:

> Aren't peas (both green and white) old world plants? They both show up

> in enough recipes.

> I've found dried white peas in large bags in the Indian (India) section

> of the grocery store - labeled "Vatana".

> - Doc

> Pat Griffin

> Lady Anne du Bosc

> known as Mordonna the Cook

> Shire of Thorngill, Meridies

> Mundanely, Millbrook, AL

--

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

 

 

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:39:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00)

From: smcclune at earthlink.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: pease porridge?

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Pat <mordonna22 at yahoo.com>

 

"English" peas or garden peas were developed fairly recently in France,  

I believe.  Black eyed peas and field peas and cow peas and purple  

crowders are all related and come out of Africa.  Navy peas, and white  

peas found on most grocery shelves are of New World origin.  The garden  

peas named by Gerard do not seem available, having been replaced in the  

main by the varieties developed in the 17th and 18th century.  Of the  

nine peas and beans listed by Gerard, only four still seem to be  

readily available: lentils, favas, chick peas, and a standard white pea  

still eaten in Western Europe according to Adamantius.

<<< 

 

There's a lovely illustration of peas in pods in the Catherine hours --  

I'm recalling that the peas were golden/yellow in color.  

Unfortunately, nobody seems to have scanned it and put it on line  

anywhere yet.  Would that be of any help in identifying the variety of  

peas in question?  I could probably scan it in and toss it out on my  

website next week if folks want a look ...

 

Arwen

Outlands

 

 

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:47:12 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pease porridge?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

The field pea is Pisum sativum var. arvense and is of Eurasian origin.

Black-eyed peas and cowpeas are Vigna unguiculata and are believed to be of

African origin.

 

The European "white" pea appears to be a variety of field pea.

 

The garden pea is Pisum sativum sativum and it's been around a long time.

Petite pois, a dwarf version of the garden pea, was being eaten in France

during the 14th Century.

 

The navy pea and the white pea you mention together are better known as the

navy bean or white pea bean.  The are members of Phaseolus and are of New

World origin.

 

If you attempt to use Gerard or any of the early taxonimists to determine

what modern peas were in use then, you will have problems.  What were once

classified as a number of different species have been have been rolled into

Pisum sativum (for example, P. majus and P. minus are considered high bush

and low bush variants).

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:52:59 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pease porridge?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Field peas were probably what they were using for recipes from the Forme of

Cury. Split peas are field peas.

 

Petit pois are a small seed variety of garden peas.  The basic species is

the same as those being grown in France in the 1400's, but as you pointed

out in an earlier message, there has been a lot of hybridization, so the

variety is probably more modern.  If I were a gardener and in a fanatic mood

about historical accuracy, I might chase down the heritage varietals, but

since I'm not I'll use the frozen ones.

 

The black-eyed peas known to your ancestor may have come over with the

slaves from Africa, but they have been eaten around the Mediterranean since

Antiquity. It may be that they were not commonly available in Northern

Europe.

 

Bear

 

> Bear,

> As usual, I bow to your scholarship.  Would it be safe to use field peas in

> a recipe from Forme of Cury?  What about frozen petit pois?  Are these the

> same petit pois grown in the 1400's in France?  After all, Petit Pois is

> simply French for Little Pea.

> I've always believed (wrongly, I guess) that field peas were simply a

> blander variety of black eyed peas.

> My family goes a long way back in the Southeastern US, the original

> Immigrant was one Isaac du Bosc, sometime in the 1600's.  They were rich

> French Hugenots, related to the famous Hugenot Preacher Pierre du Bosc.

> At one point they owned whopping portions of the SC lowlands and many

> slaves.  Common family knowledge was that the blackeyed peas came over

> with the slaves from Africa.

> Pat Griffin

> Lady Anne du Bosc

 

 

Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:27:50 -0400

From: Cindy Renfrow <cindy at thousandeggs.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 1000 Eggs question

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Most of those recipes call for the same step. If you read a bit

further, the next instruction is generally to rub  the entire mess

through a strainer to remove the tough hulls that the initial boiling

loosened. The end result of the cooking and straining process is a

uniform pea mush that we then doctor with almond milk or whatever.

 

The peas they were using were not our tender petit pois, nor were they

the type now found as split peas. Thanks to the pea plant's tendency to

'run into varieties' (remember Mendel?) they varied in color and size;

but they were generally tough. Hence the long  cooking and processing

needed to make them edible; and the joy with which petit pois were

welcomed when they were finally developed and imported.

 

Cindy Renfrow

part-time maniac and author of Take 1000 Eggs

 

On Aug 24, 2005, at 12:59 PM, Heather M wrote:

> In volume two, there are recipes for peas. The directions for one that

> I'm looking at include directions to boil till they come apart (I'm

> assuming split in half, not boil them till they surrender all cellular

> cohesiveness). Is this recipe referring to fresh or dried peas?

> Neither the original language or the translation seem to provide me

> enough info to decide? Inquiring minds....

> I can functionally go either route, purchasing flash-frozen peas or

> split, but I'd like to know the observations of folks here. The time

> of the year will work, too, as a second harvest of peas is possible at

> the time of year I'm cooking for.

> Still planning on spinach pies at some point,

> Margaret Northwode

 

 

Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:11:54 -0500

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Bohemian Baba

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

 

I'm working on this recipe for our event this weekend. Rumpolt has no  

less than 17 recipes for strained peas.   Another recipe describes a  

pea dish as white, and it calls for whole peas, so I made a trip to  

the Indian grocery to buy whole white dry peas.

 

After hours of soaking, cooking, and dehulling I have...  split  

yellow peas!!  Instead of hulling the rest, I'm likely to make  

another grocery run and get split peas.

 

Or should it after all, be black eyed peas?

 

Ranvaig

 

Zugem?? 7. Nim(b) Erbe?/ die gekocht vnd durchgestrichen seyn/ mit  

Eyerdottern angemacht vnd frischer Butter. Nim(b) gebeht Schnitten  

von einem weissen Weck/ thu Butter oder Speck in ein Turtenpfan(n)en/  

zerla?/ vnd machs hei? auff Kolen/ weich die Schnitten in die  

durchtriebene Erbe?/ vnd leg sie fein nacheinander in die Turtenpfan

(n)en/ sch?t dar?ber die Erbe?/ geu? de(n) Speck oder zerlassene  

Butter dar?ber/ setz in Ofen/ oder auff Kolen/ vnd backs/ thu ein  

Hafendeckel darauff/ vnd Kolen dar?ber/ da? vnten vnd oben Hitz geht.  

Vnd wen(n) du es wilt anrichten/ so st?rtz vmb in eine Sch?ssel/ vn

(d) gibs warm auff ein Tisch. Die Spei? nennet man auff B?hmisch Baba.

 

Take peas/ that are cooked and strained/ prepared with egg yolks and  

fresh butter.  Take toasted slices from a white bread/ put butter or  

bacon in a pie pan/ melt/ and make hot on coals/ soften the slices in  

the strained peas/ and lay them next to each other/ pour the peas  

over them/ pour the bacon or melted butter over it/ set in the oven/  

or on coals/ and bake/ put a pot cover over it/ that heat goes under  

and over.  And when you will serve it/ then turn over into a dish/  

and give warm on a table.  The dish one calls Bohemian Baba.

 

Zugem?? 8. Nim(b) Erbe?/ die gesotten vnd abgetrucknet seyn in eine M?

rsel/ sto? sie mit Eyerdottern/ s?sser Milch/ vnnd vnzerlassener  

Butter/ thu auch ein wenig Saltz darvnter/ vnd r?r es durcheinander.  

Nim(b) gebeht Schnitten von eim Weck/ tauch sie in die Erbe?/ vnd leg  

sie in die Turtenpfannen/ vnd wen(n) du sie hast auffeinander gelegt/  

so thu die vberbliebenen Erbe? dar?ber/ gegeu? mit frischer Butter/  

setz in Ofen mit der Turtenpfannen/ vnd la? backen.  Nim(b) ein Sch?

ssel/ vnd st?rtz sie darein/ vnd gib sie warm auff ein Tisch.  Also  

essen sie die B?hmen gern/ vnd man nennet es in B?hmen ein Baba von  

Erbe? gemacht.

 

Take peas/ that are cooked and dried in a mortar/ grind them with egg  

yolks/ sweet milk/ and unmelted butter/ put a little salt into it/  

and stir them together.  Take toasted slices from a weck bread/ dip  

them in the peas/ and lay them in a pie pan/ and when you have laid  

them next to each other/ then put the pie pan/ and when you have laid  

them next to each other/ then add the uberbliebenen peas over it/  

baste with fresh butter set in oven with the pie pan/ and let bake.  

Take a dish/ and overturn onto it/ and give them warm on a table.  

They like to eat it like this in Bohemia/ and in Bohemia they call it  

a Baba made of peas.

 

 

Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 07:51:42 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bohemian Baba

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

White peas are Lathyrus sativus AKA white vetch, Indian pea, Indian vetch,

almorte (Sp.), alverjon (Sp.), cicerchia (It.), pisello bretonne (It.),

khesari (In.), batura (In.), gesette (Fr.), etc., etc. etc.  They are one of

the legumes that was largely replaced by the New World beans after 1492.

Modernly, they are still used in Italy and a few of the Mediterranean

countries, but are more likely to be found in Africa and some parts  

of Asia.

 

White, as a culinary term in German, can be used to describe  

blanching, more properly, weissmachen or weissseiden.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:24:18 -0500

From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouw at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Syseros?

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Served them at a feast several years ago, served them at a feast two weeks

ago, served them to the family for Christmas dinner this year, fix them just

for myself from time to time.....  You get the idea.  I love the things.  I

serve them and their meridinating liquid over salad greens.  Nummy.  I vote

"YES". (And I'll be at that feast, so please, make me happy.  

 

Mairi Ceilidh

 

<<< Anyone ever served syseros (from Chiqart, etc) at a feast? I have tested the

recipe several times with my family but not with a wider audience (shame on

me). I am thinking about serving syseros with pork pies for lunch, and I'm

afraid they're too weird. Self-doubt a week before the event! Aaaagh!

 

Madhavi >>>

 

 

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 23:05:21 -0800 (PST)

From: wheezul at canby.com

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another question on peas

 

<<< You can use medievalcookery.com and search under peas or pea for a

Selection of recipes, including ones that might make a pea soup.

 

Johnnae >>>

 

So, in a moment of synchronicity I just happened to be reading about peas

in the Lustgarten book I gushed over yesterday.  Ryff describes three

types - the common dried white pea that is sewn on acreage, the wild

fieldpea and the well shaped green pea (from Alsace, he tells us).  He

also says they are called Pisa, after the city they were first know.  He

seems quite comfortable with describing these, and even says that his book

is written for the common man to share this kind of knowledge in the

entry. I'm not so concerned with the actual accuracy of his history as I

am wanting to understand what a 16th century person might have known.

 

My question is, when wanting to approximate the closest

medieval/renaissance equivalent pea, is it more proper to choose a yellow

dried pea than a green one, or some other choice?  I recall someone sagely

posting about the high protein grey pea probably being extinct so I am

curious.

 

Are there some good basic reference books I should consult about period

specific forms of food that have since been highly hybridized?  Grains,

especially? Or is knowledge scattered in food technology journals that

requires one to hitch up the sleeves and find them?

 

Katrine

 

 

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:57:00 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another question on peas

 

<<< So, in a moment of synchronicity I just happened to be reading about peas

in the Lustgarten book I gushed over yesterday.  Ryff describes three

types - the common dried white pea that is sewn on acreage, the wild

fieldpea and the well shaped green pea (from Alsace, he tells us).  He

also says they are called Pisa, after the city they were first know.  He

seems quite comfortable with describing these, and even says that his book

is written for the common man to share this kind of knowledge in the

entry. I'm not so concerned with the actual accuracy of his history as I

am wanting to understand what a 16th century person might have known. >>>

 

A 16th Century person would have referred to pea as pease (the noun is

singular, plural peasen as derived from OE) the ending -se being dropped

sometime after 1600.  The word has nothing to do with Pisa, being derived

from the Greek "pison."  I suspect, but do not know, that Ryff's error stems

from the Latin plural of "pisum," which is "pisa."

 

<<< My question is, when wanting to approximate the closest

medieval/renaissance equivalent pea, is it more proper to choose a yellow

dried pea than a green one, or some other choice?  I recall someone sagely

posting about the high protein grey pea probably being extinct so I am

curious. >>>

 

Either yellow or green would work as both were available.

 

The grey pea or grey field pea is not extinct.  These are common names used

to refer to a number of varieties of Pisum sativum arvense.  The common name

has fallen into disuse as more accurate terminaolgy entered the agricultural

literature, but you will still find grey pea or grey field pea used in

agricultural publications during the first half of the 20th Century.  What

has occurred is field peas have been marginalized as human food and are now

primarily used as animal fodder and ground cover.  Yellow and green

varietals are particular favored in the ground cover department because they

have a better amrket value.

 

<<< Are there some good basic reference books I should consult about period

specific forms of food that have since been highly hybridized?  Grains,

especially? Or is knowledge scattered in food technology journals that

requires one to hitch up the sleeves and find them?

 

Katrine >>>

 

The basics are covered in Davidson"s Oxford Companion to Food (available in

paperback as the Penguin Companion to Food, IIRC) and The Cambridge World

History of Food.  If you seriously get involved in the study, be ready to

read a lot of scientific papers, herbals, obscure journals, contemporary

letters and general history.  For grains, legumes and the like, you will

need to add archeological summaries.  You also need to work with Linnean

taxonomy (to precisely define what you are talking about) and get a handle

on pre-Linnean taxonomy.  Sounds daunting, but I find it a lot of fun.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:22:19 -0800 (PST)

From: wheezul at canby.com

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another question on peas

 

<<< A 16th Century person would have referred to pea as pease (the noun is

singular, plural peasen as derived from OE) the ending -se being dropped

sometime after 1600.  The word has nothing to do with Pisa, being derived

from the Greek "pison."  I suspect, but do not know, that Ryff's error

stems from the Latin plural of "pisum," which is "pisa." >>>

 

That parallel with the plural seems quite logical and the German word for

pea is also in the plural form.  I actually giggled when I read that part

about Pisa as it seemed patently untrue, but something my persona would

say having "read it in a book" or being something my husband told me

"having read it in a book".

 

I need to correct what I wrote about Alsace being the source of green peas

which will teach me to post too late at night - Ryff says that the rounder

forms are sometimes green, and are called "green peas" in Alsace and not

that they come from Alsace.  This sentence implies to me that they may not

generally have been thought of as green, especially as he describes the

common form as white and certainly not the way I perceive them in a modern

sense.

 

Katrine

 

 

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:46:18 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lustgarten was Another question on peas

 

If I have this correct, Lustgarten der Geshundheit was originally published

in Frankfort in 1546.  It is an encyclopedia on agrarian subject from a

medical point of view, Ryff being a physician.

 

Let me suggest that you add Leonard Fuchs herbal to your study.  The herbal

is contemporaneous to the Lustgarten.  The plates are webbed at Yale and

there is another online facsimile with the original German text.  Also, an

edition was published (with English translations) only a few years ago.

That may be available through ILL.  Fuchs makes some errors and raises a

number of questions, but he is highly useable as a mid-16th Century source.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 07:40:10 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another question on peas

 

<<< Either yellow or green would work as both were available.

 

Bear >>>

 

What is the difference in texture and taste between these peas?  How about

firmness?

--

Ian of Oertha

-------

 

You'll find them marketed as green or yellow split peas.  I find no

particular difference in taste and the texture depends on how soft they are

cooked. If you could get them fresh, it might be a different matter, but

they are basically ground cover plants that can be harvested and sold to

processors for additional revenue.  I don't recall ever seeing a fresh field

pea outside of the field.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 01:36:49 -0400

From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peas vs. beans

 

Ranvaig commented:

<<< I checked the index of Apicus for "bean" and "torta" and don't see

anything like this.    The notes say that one word now associated

with beans, actually meant peas then.  >>>

 

So what determines whether something is considered a bean and when

it is considered a pea? Now and in period?

===================

 

I found a couple of modern answers:

 

Beans are of the genus Phaseolus.

Peas are of the genus Pisum.

 

peas have tendrils and beans do not

 

peas have a hollow stem and beans have a solid stem.

 

In general peas have slick vines and beans have hairy vines that enable

them to cling.

 

Bean is used for a lot of different

things and usually tagged by shape.

 

In period, it will depend on the language too.  Or are you only

asking about English?

 

Ranvaig

 

<the end>



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