forks-msg - 1/29/08
Period forks. Their history and use in Europe.
NOTE: See also the files: utensils-msg, p-tableware-msg, spoons-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, aquamaniles-msg, mazers-msg, trenchers-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago
Everyone knows that the fork was introduced at the end of our period.
In fact, the earliest known picture of people eating with forks is
about 12th or 13th century (I can check--it is shown in a V&A
pamphlet on cutlery that I have). There are two Anglo-Saxon forks in
the British museum, and the Cleveland Museum of Art has a Byzantine
fork that is quite early (10th century? I don't remember). The fork
does not seem to become a standard utensil until c. 1600, but it
exists much earlier.
<snip>
Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 04:30:17 GMT
With regard to forks, there is a pamphlet from
the Victoria and Albert Museum on tableware that has a discussion of
their history. I believe a short summary is that forks exist through
most or all of our period (the Cleveland Museum of Art has a
Byzantine fork on display, I think c. 8th century, and the British
Museum owns two Anglo-Saxon fork and spoon sets, one unfinished), but
do not become part of the standard set of utensils everyone uses (as
they are now) until the seventeenth century, at least in England.
Think of them in most of our period in most places as analogous to
fondue forks today--they exist, but are used only for specialized
purposes.
David/Cariadoc
From: sniderm at mcmail2.cis.McMaster.CA (Mike Snider)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes
Date: 22 Mar 1995 00:25:50 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Greetings,
Forks are a tricky subject. Those references I have come across in
period descriptions of feasts etc.. the fork is used to spear food from
comunal dishes, rather than to convey food to the mouth. Several items
from the fourteenth century, originally thought to be hair accessories,
are now being recatalogued as forks. These impliments are just pointed
tools with decrative finials at the end, but some have been found which
clearly match spoons. They look much like skewers. I hope this helps.
Elizabeth Cadfan
From: rorice at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes
Date: 24 Mar 1995 11:30:07 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Greetings from Lothar,
Ah, the joy of the recurring thread, "When did they introduce the
fork?" This is a favorite Mynydd Seren conversation changer, rapidly gaining
popularity against "Pity about that Marie Antoinette woman...." or "Look,
a pterodactyl!" in the fight against dull or suddenly embarrassing
conversations.
P. 184-189 of (Feast and Fast; food in medieval society, Brigit
Anne Henisch; Pennsylvania University Press:1976. ISBN 0-271-00424-X) has
the fork being introduced in the 4th c. in Byzantium as a table instrument,
although it was known from antiquity as kitchen implement. It was known
in Western and Southern Europe as a rarity from then on, though its use
was remarkable. It seems to have only really caught on late in Period,
in the 16th and 17th centuries. Even then they were rare.
Feast and Fast is a good book for other things concerned with medieval
food and cooking. I recommend it to anyone interested in such things.
Lothar
From: rmine at iinet.net.au (Russell Miners)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Forks?
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:40:33 GMT
BlackCat <blackcat at blueneptune.com> wrote:
>Does anyone know where in Europe forks were popular as individual dining
>implements in the late 1500's?
Many books show only two-tined forks from the 17th century, but an
interesting collection of forks can be seen in material raised from
the Spanish Armada ship Girona. The picture that I am looking at is
from the book "Treasures of the Armada" by Robert Stenuit and shows
several three, four and five tined fork heads. (A total of forty-five
forks is stated.) This at least puts their use back to 1588..
From: dickeney at access2.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Forks?
Date: 14 Jan 1997 20:36:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
BlackCat <blackcat at blueneptune.com> wrote:
>Does anyone know where in Europe forks were popular as individual dining
>implements in the late 1500's?
Italy, especially Venice. Englishmen who went to visit and brought one of
these decadent things home -- as if fingers weren't good enough for Queen
Bess! -- were one of the "types" denounced under the general heading of an
Englishman Italianate/ is a devil incarnate.
|---------Master Vuong Manh, C.P., Storvik, Atlantia---------|
|Now, let's stop and think: how would Bugs Bunny handle this?|
|----------------(dickeney at access.digex.net)-----------------|
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 8:03:15 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: Forks
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Ok, this is not based on any serious research, just playing around
with what other people have written. The numbers below refer to the
notes following.
Marc/Diarmaid
==================================================================
Italy Germany France England Spain Byzantium Other
-------------------------------------------------------------------
??? ?(1) 26 8
900- 24
1000
1000- 1,32 (see B) 1
1100
1100- 30 29
1200
1200- ?(2) 10,11
1300
1300- 6+,36 (See C) 7 2
1400 9
1400- 31
1500
1500- 17 3,4,5 14
1600
1600- 15 27,28 7,37,40 16,18,33 21
1700 35,38,39
=================================================================
Notes:
?(1) Someone asserted that the fork was used among the Germans, but
that their use died out by the end of the Dark Ages, only to
be re-introduced later (undocumented assertion).
?(2) Another assertion is that Edward I of England owned no less
than 7 forks (undocumented assertion).
1. A Byzantine princess married to a Venetian noble (prob.
Domenico Selvo (or Silvio), heir to the Doge of Venice) and
introduced the 2 tined table fork to Europe in the eleventh
century. Forks seem to have been novelties in Byzantium, but
not unknown. Many examples can be found in Byzantine art,
according to Boger and Henisch. Her use of the fork was
considered outrageous.(Giblin) Her death was attributed to her
"excessive delicacy"(Henisch, citing Peter Damian, Institutio
Monialis, chap.11 in Patrologiae cursus completeus, series
latina, ed. J.P. Migne. Paris: Migne, 1853. Vol.145 col.744.)
2. The Will of John Baret of Bury St. Edmunds, 1463: "Itm J. yeve
and beqwethe to Davn John Kertelynge my silvir forke for grene
gyngor" linking forks to eating fruit or sweetmeats
(Bailey)(Henisch, citing ME dictionary).
3. The Jewelhouse inventory of Henry VIII: "Item one spone wt
suckett fork at the end of silver and gilt"(Bailey)
4. Inventory of property left by HenryVII: "Item, one Case
wherein are xxi knives and a fork, the hafts being crystal and
chalcedony, the ends garnished with gold" (Hayward) (see 19)
5. " "Item, one Case of knives furnished with divers knives and
one fork, whereof two be great hafts of silver parcel-gilt,
the case covered with crimson velvet" (Hayward).
6. Inventory of silverware in Florence, taken in 1361 (Giblin).
This may be the mid-14th C. inventory of Francesco Di Marco
Datini, who had 12 forks locked away in his room (Henisch,
citing I. Origo, The Merchant of Prato. New York: Knopf, 1957.
p. 254). It may also be the list of plate owned by the
Florentine Commune referred to in (Visser).
7. inventories of Charles V and Charles VI of France (Bailey)
8. Table forks were known and used before the year 1000 in the
middle east (Boger, Giblin).
9. Italian cookbooks of the late 1400's (Giblin)
10. Mid-13th century. A letter from William of Rubruck, a
Franciscan monk, to Louis IX of France describing the eating
habits of the Tartars refers to using forks for eating.
(Henisch, citing The Journal of William of Rubruck, in C.
Dawson, ed. Mission to Asia. New York: Harper Torchbooks,
1966. p.98.
11. This fragment of a letter (#10) and listings in inventories
and wills link the fork with fruits and sweetmeats.
12. The practice of using the fork to eat dishes that included a
sticky sauce or that might stain the fingers (Boger, Bailey)
was primarily that of courtesans, prompting the Church to ban
the fork as an immoral influence (Gruber).
13. The early forks were small, with short straight tines, and
therefore probably used only for spearing and holding food,
rather than scooping. The curve with which we are familiar in
the modern fork was introduced in France in the seventeenth
century (Boger.)
14. Forks were known and used in Spain by 1588's shipwreck of the
La Girona (45 forks, some with 3, 4, and 5 straight
tines.(Flanagan)(Stenuit)
15. _Coryat's Curdities Hastily gobbled up in Five Months Travels
in France, Savoy, Italy, &c._ London, 1611. Thomas Coryat of
Odcombe, near Yeovil, claims to be one of the first Englishmen
to use a fork. However, even HE thinks they are not for
eating with, but for carving meat from a joint and serving it
(Visser). he claims that they were common in Italy and not
unusual in other parts of Europe.
16. Ben Jonson also used forks as the basis of humor in two of his
plays: "Volpone" (1606)(Act IV Scene I), and "The Devil is an
Ass" (1616)
17. A letter by Montaigne in the late 16th cent. refers to
Italians using forks (Henisch, citing Montaigne. On
Experience. In Essays, trans. JM Cohen, Harmandsworth:
Penguin, 1958, p.367).
18. "The earliest fork known to have been made in England" is in
the Victoria and Albert Museum. It bears the crests of John
Manners, 8th Earl of Rutland and his wife Frances, daughter of
Edward Lord Montagu of Boughton (Bailey). It is two-tined and
squarish, made of silver, and bears the London hallmark for
1632-3 (Hayward).
19. In other parts of Europe, it became customary to make knives
and forks in sets. Better quality knives of the sixteenth
century came in sets of a dozen or more contained in a leather
case, and included a fork to be used for serving (Hayward). As
forks became more common, sets of knife and fork, often with
a sheath or case for the pair, came into use.
20. It was much more common for people to carry their own cutlery
with them (Hayward, Bailey). Even the inns were not equipped
with tableware, expecting the traveller to provide their own
(Bailey). Some travelers had a collapsible or folding set of
knife, fork, and spoon (Giblin)
21. A 17th century Spanish ship sank off the Bahamas (Peterson)
22. Victoria and Albert pamphlet on cutlery/tableware has "the
earliest known picture of people eating with forks is about
12th or 13th century". (DDFr) Where?
23. British Museum has two Anglo-saxon fork and spoon sets. (DDFr)
These may be the Anglo Saxon forks referred to in (Henisch,
citing D.M. Wilson. Anglo-Saxon Ornamental Metal Work, 700-
1100. London: British Museum, Catalogue of antiquities of the
Later Saxon Period. 1964. 1:168 and pl. 29). Henisch does
comment that the actual use of these is not know.
24. Cleveland Museum of Art has a Byzantine fork (10th century?
1st Millenium). (DDFr) 8th Century (Angharad)
25. "Several items from the fourteenth century, originally thought
to be hair accessories, are now being recatalogued as
forks."(Cadfan)
26. Dunbarton Oaks Collection has a 4th century silver Byzantine
table fork (Henisch, citing T. Talbot Rice, Everyday life in
Byzantium, 1970. p.170)
27 1614. A plate from Visscher illustrates a selection of
household and personal cutlery, including three forks
(Singman)
28 1658. A plate from Johannes Comenius' "Orbis Sensualium
Pictus" in Germany mentions forks.
29. 12th Century German Manscript, influenced by Byzantine
examples, shows a fork on a table in a Last Supper scene
(Henisch, citing Horrade von Landsberg. Hortus Deliciarum. ed.
J. Walter (Strasbourg, 1852), pl.30.
30. 12th Century examples are found in Venice on the High Altar of
St. Marks, in an Last Supper (Hennisch, citing O. Demus. The
Church of San Marco in Venice. Washington, DC: Dumbarton Oaks
Research Library and Collection, 1960. p.23).
31. 1409. An inventory of Valentina d'Orleans referst to a gold
fork, with one prong broken (Henisch, citing E. McLeod.
Charles of Orleans. London: Chatto and Windus, 1969. p.51-2).
32. 1022-23. Italian manuscript shows two men eating with forks.
Rabanus Maurus, De Universo. Montecassino. Montecassino,
Biblioteca dell Abbazico, codex 132, bk.XXII, chap.I De mensis
et escis (Henisch).
33. c.1630 Governor Winthrop of Massachusetts owned a fork
(Deetz).
34. 1721. First mention of a fork in a Pymouth Colony Probate
Record (Deetz)
35. By mid-1600s, England and North America. The eating knife
began to have a rounded end, suggesting that the knife was no
longer being used to stab meat to convey it to the mouth
(Hume, Deetz).
36. By 14th century, forks were being used in Italy, even in
taverns for eating pasta (Redon).
37. 1605, in France, Henri III (1551-89) and his favorites were
satirized in _L'Isle des Hermaphrodites_ by Thomas Artus for
preferring to use forks (Redon, Visser).
38. 1650. English two prong fork, with a matching knife and a four
prong fork and matching knife (Riaz, p.14).
39. 17th C. English two prong fork, with a matching knife (Riaz,
p.14).
40. Antoine de Courtin, in the late 1600s, advised the use of
forks only for fatty, sauce laden or syrupy food. Otherwise
hands would do (Visser).
A 1260. A reference to "vessels" in the early regulations of
the College de Sorbonne from around 1260. Napkins are also
mentioned, but forks are not. (Hefner)
B. A 15th century German edition of Rabanus Maurus, De Universo
(see #33) shows the same picture, but no forks (Henisch).
C. 19th Century paintings and photographs of spagetti eaters show
them eating with their hands (Visser).
=============================================================
Some sources:
Bailey, C.T.P. Knives and Forks. London: The Medici Society, 1927.
Boger, Ann. Consuming Passions: The Art of Food and Drink.
Cleveland: Cleveland Museum of Art, 1983.
Cadfan, Elizabeth email correspondence - found in Stefan's
Florilegium
DDFr - Email correspondence from David Friedman/Cariadoc, found on
Rialto and in Stefan's Florilegium
Deetz, James. In Small Things Forgotten, An Archaeology of Early
American Life. New York: Doubleday, 1996.
Flanagan, Laurence. Ireland's Armada Legacy. Dublin: Gill and
Macmillan, 1988.
Giblin, James Cross. From Hand to Mouth. New York: Thomas Y.
Crowell, 1987.
Gruber, Alain. Silverware. New York: Rizzoli International
Publications, Inc., 1982.
Harrison, Molly. The Kitchen in History. New York: Charles
Scribner's Sons, 1972.
Hayward, J.F. English Cutlery, sixteenth to eighteenth century.
London: Victoria and Albert Museum, 1956.
Hefner, Patricia. Found in Stefan's Florilegium
Henisch, Brigit Anne. Feast and Fast; food in medieval society.
University Press, PA: Pennsylvania University Press, 1976.
Hume, Ivor Noel. A Guide to Artifacts of Colonial America. New
York: Random House, 1969.
Master Robyyan N'Tor D'Elandris. "The History Of The Table Fork"
The Citadel (1/96).
Millikin, William M. "Early Christian Fork and Spoon", The Bulletin
of the Cleveland Museum of Art, 44(Oct. 1957), 185+.
Peterson, Mendel. "Reach for the New World" National Geographic
(Dec 1977)
Redon, Odile, Francoise Sabban, and Silvano Serventi. The Medieval
Kitchen, Recipes from France and Italy. Chicago: The
University of Chicago Press, 1993.
Riaz, Yvan de. Le Livre des Couteaux. Edita Lazarus, 1978.
Singman, Jeffrey. The Tudor-Stuart Sourcebook.
Stenuit, Robert. Treasures of the Armanda. 1972
Visser, Margaret. The Rituals of Dinner. New York: Penguin, 1991.
There is purportedly an article by Catherina Sforza d'Agro in an
old _TI_ which I have no further information on.
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:51:58 -0600
From: Wajdi <a14h at zebra.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Tablewear
See the following url for history of the table fork.
http://www.byu.edu/ipt/projects/middleages/LifeTimes/TableFork.html
wajdi
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:46:03 +0200
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: Re: SC - medieval times?
In case you're interested, I've posted some pics of late-period 2-pronged
forks at http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/photos.html
Cindy
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 18:54:35 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Holidays, Lurking, Gifts, Etc.
Then there's that Anglo-Saxon "spork" that I have. The gentle who made it
documented it to the 9th century in Britain...I have the reference somewhere as
we discussed this sometime ago on this list. Basically, it is brass with a spoon on one end a 3-tined for on the other.
Kiri
Jenne Heise wrote:
> > A question for the group: While in Europe, in discussing medieval history
> > with a very well educated historian, he questioned me as to what utensils I
> > eat with during feast. I explained them; a two prong fork, a spoon and
> > knife. He was quick to chastise me in saying that forks were not used in
> > the middle ages; but rather only a knife and a spoon. One side of the
> > knife was used to scrape the food from the plate onto a spoon, or it was
> > eaten directly off the knife. I was under the impression that a two prong
> > fork was introduced in early middle ages. Can anyone verify this
> > information with sources?
>
> According to Henisch and Dembinska, eating forks were used in the
> Byzantine Empire during period, but in Western and Northern Europe they
> were relatively rare in period, though not completely unknown. They are an
> example of something that is very common in the SCA but was relatively
> uncommon in period.
>
> I wonder what he meant by 'one side of the knife was used to scrape the
> food from the plate onto a spoon' as I eat my feasts with spoon and knife
> only generally and have not experienced this. Directions in the manners
> manuals seem to indicate that some things were also eaten with the hands,
> I believe.
>
> The Encyclopedia Britannica says that two prong forks were invented by the
> Romans and that two pronged SERVING forks were used in the middle ages.
> They say that the knife and fork replaced the traditional 'pair of pointed
> table knives', whatever that means.
> --
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 20:49:08 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Holidays, Lurking, Gifts, Etc.
Elaine Koogler wrote:
> Then there's that Anglo-Saxon "spork" that I have. The gentle who made it
> documented it to the 9th century in Britain...I have the reference somewhere
> as we discussed this sometime ago on this list. Basically, it is brass with a
> spoon on one end a 3-tined for on the other.
This may or may not be inspired by the Roman concept of the spoon with a
nut/shellfish/tooth - pick at the handle end. A single prong, of course,
but functionally similar to your spork.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:16:41 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - spork
Christina van Tets wrote:
> Ack! I knew I should have looked at the name of the sender before I deleted
> the digest. A gentle of the List, therefore, wrote about a spork. I have a
> vague but currently unsubstantiated (no relevant books anywya near me)
> feeling that runcible spoons (named for Roncevalles) came in two varieties,
> one of which was a splayd-like thing, and I think the other may have
> corresponded to your eating toy.
>
> Does it work well? I recoil at the thought of using one end when the other
> is dirty...
>
> Cairistiona
We've been using ours for over a year now, and they seem to work very well. I
usually wipe the used end off with a napkin before using the other end, so that
isn't really a problem. I also keep spare spoons in case I want to eat
something really messy with a spoon.
Kiri
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:19:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Forks for you?
To: Sudden Service #5 <sudnserv5 at netway.com>, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- Sudden Service #5 sudnserv5 at netway.com wrote:
> Just to throw this into the discussion:
> http://www.levantia.com.au/dailylife/tware.hml
> Half way down the page is a discussion on forks
> being period as far back as the fourth century.
>
> Olaf
Well, there are forks and there are forks ...
By the way, the ceramics shown as being made by
Alex de Vos, are period, as Master Ale the
Potter is a Laurel from Lochac, and a friend of
mine.
Huette
From: "the.gemster" <the.gemster at ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 10:19:46 AM US/Central
To: stefan at florilegium.org
Subject: Roman/Anglo Saxon table forks.
Having just come across your website, I was interested to read the various comments on Table forks.
At the moment I am in the process of building a data base re: Roman and anglo Saxon forks.
Roman forks found in the U.k I am up to my ankles in, Anglo Saxon forks I am up to my knees in.
All forks that I am cataloguing are from dated stratas only with a known provenance.
Both roman and a/s forks can be either two or three tined, any metal except gold plain or fancy.
Roman forks tend to be smaller and plainer than anglo saxon forks. All my information is being gathered from archeological records and current digs. The British Museum's oldest example of saxon fork is 5/6th.C iron, with bone handle.
If you require any further information on this subject, then please fell free to contact me at this address.
Yours,
Edwina Allen.
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:25:31 -0600
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] forks
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Something I ran across while browsing.
4th century Byzantium
http://www.cma.org/explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=12&;recNo=40
Lyse
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:31:12 +0000
From: "Caius Fabius" <caius_fabius at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period forks and Roman cooking stuff
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
There is a CD ROM at "Roman Army Tour 2002" at
http://www.cafepress.com/PortaOlbia
with 650+ photos of Roman helmets, tools and cooking stuffs,
which includes pottery, pans, hearths, forks, and spoons,
from Roman museums in France, Germany and Britain.
The forks are similar to modern snail forks used in France
today, and probably had a similar purpose.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:26:56 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fork
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
The sources of all this are probably, Giblin, James Cross. From Hand to
Mouth. New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1987, and Henisch, Brigit Anne. Feast
and Fast; food in medieval society. University Press, PA: Pennsylvania
University Press, 1976.
The information as it usually appears on the web is something like this:
"A Byzantine princess introduced the table fork to Europe in the eleventh
century. The story varies slightly depending on the source, but the essence
is that a nobleman, probably Domenico Selvo (or Silvio), heir to the Doge of
Venice, married a princess from Byzantium. This Byzantine princess brought a
case of two- tined table forks to Venice as part of her luggage. Forks seem
to have been novelties in Byzantium, but not unknown. Many examples can be
found in Byzantine art, according to Boger and Henisch.
The princess outraged the populace and the clergy by refusing to eat with
her hands:
"Instead of eating with her fingers like other people, the princess cuts
up her food into small pieces and eats them by means of little golden forks
with two prongs."[Giblin]
"God in his wisdom has provided man with natural forks - his fingers.
Therefore it is an insult to Him to substitute artificial metallic forks for
them when eating."[Giblin]
The princess apparently died before very long, of some wasting disease,
prompting Peter Damian, Cardinal Bishop of Ostia to write,
"Of the Venetian Doge's wife, whose body, after her excessive delicacy,
entirely rotted away"[Henisch] "
The problems with all this are (1) Domenico Selvo, then Doge of Florence,
married Teodora Doukaina (AKA Ducas) in 1075, (2) Saint Peter Damian,
Cardinal Bishop of Ostia, died in 1072, and (3) the quotes do not appear to
be attributable to any 11th Century source. I have also been unable to
locate any Biblical prohibition against forks or locate any Medieval
reference to a prohibition against forks.
My current opinion is that many of these "facts" are apocryphal and that
they may be an artifact of Victorian imagination, but I haven't been able to
chase sources far enough as yet.
Bear
> As new members pointed out I too am getting a complex about being one of
> them. I ask a question which in the end rightfully is not published for
> in 2000 you raked the issue to death and Stefan, I later find, published
> it in his files and one of you wrote a very complete article which after
> reading them today, I have few problems left. The first is a reference
> with a source I cannot locate is that in the 11th Century at least it
> was thought that the Bible prohibited the use of the fork. I understand
> that at that time it was thought that only the devil used forks (a pitch
> fork for hay mind you) but I'd like to know what passage in the Bible
> made the Church think that metal could not be used to transmit organic
> food to the mouth while a fruit fork was ok because it does not come
> from an animal. Why can't eggplants be eaten with a fork as other
> vegetables in the Christian world? Also in my search I came across a
> statement that 'this prohibition lasted 70 years' so we are talking like
> 1180? Do we have documentation to this effect? Further, the fruit fork
> was perfectly admissible as Villena says but after that in 1430 in Spain
> Suero Quinones offered them at a banquet at his tournament in Leon but
> that was a revolutionary item! Don't understand. Too if the transmission
> of food to the mouth with metal was a problem for the Church why was the
> knife used? Why weren't wooden utensils used? When did the metal spoon
> come in? Why did it come in long before the fork as per my gut feeling?
>
> Suey
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 01:55:54 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fork
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
This is not working out Alonso Luego says at the beginning of the 15th
Century Pietro de Oreseolo married his son to the Byzantine princess who
brought the gold fork(s) for her wedding banquet with his son. Pietro II
de Oreseolo was Dogge of Venice from 991-1009. It seems to be pretty
well established that the wedding took place in 1004 in some reports.
Now Henrisch states and I believe one of our SCA colleagues too the
marriage was between the princess and Domenice Selvo's son. Selvo was
dogge between 1071-1081. It seems to me that Alonso Luengo had a
grammatical mishap as his subject here was that the fruit fork served to
guests during Suero Quinones tournament in the 1430's. Alonso's point
here is that using metal to transmit food from animals to the mouth was
prohibited by the Church while fruit was permitted, therefore we have
the fruit fork in Spain cause they said OK but not as far as meat is
concerned.
Henrisch at the same time perhaps has some kind of a mishap cause
perhaps the fork was pardoned during Selvo's service as doge for food
not originating from animals but the general rule as I understand it was
that God gave us fingers, natural forks, somewhere along the way as per
the Church rulings. I don't know I don't have my RC cannon laws here -
another failure trying to live in two different continents with split
libraries. The Canon Laws are under my spouse's desk in Madrid and I am
in Chile right now! But there should be a Cannon Law on this no?
Further, the wedding could have been during Pietro I's (976-978)
term as doge or while Otto Oreseolo was in office (1009-1026) as far as
I can see.
Now I have another problem Alonso goes on to state that this "15th C
wedding" was not with our Byzantine princess but with the sister of
Ramon Agricola, a rich Venetian business man. I can no trace of Ramano
but that Agricola is the name of a Greek princess and the bride in
question is supposed to have married in 955 as opposed to the Byzantine
bride of 1004. The father of the groom then would have been Pietro III
Candie's son if it is true she married the doge's son.
Whatever - a bride of a Venetian seems to have introduced the fork
to Italy to eat all morsels meat or whatever but now we get into a messy
affair cause it seems to have something do with the schism between the
RC and the Orthodox Church in 1054 cause the RC's identified the fork
with the devil's pitch fork as DA points out. Now I have a complete
blank there. I can't remember what I was told by my profs in college as
far as the reasons for the schism is concerned but I certainly don't
remember that forks caused the fork in the road. (Interesting side light
as the Pope right now is trying to negotiate to reunite the two Churches
when I can't remember why the cause for the split in the first place.)
In short the more I read the more I don't know. Can someone
straighten me out???
Suey
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 00:23:28 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fork mythology
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> This is not working out Alonso Luengo says at the beginning of the
> 15th Century Pietro de Oreseolo married his son to Romano Agrilio's
> sister. He was a rich Venetian businessman. She brought gold forks to
> the wedding banquet for all the guests who followed her example of
> eating all morsels with this new fangled instrument. Now I have no
> knowledge of the existence of this man but of a woman called Agrilio
> which I shall explain below.
I'm a little confused by this. Are you referencing the modern author, Luis
Alonso Luengo, or are you referencing a 15th Century source, say the Don
Alonso Luengo that was the patron of the Church of Our Lady of Carmen and
Ildefonso? If it is the former, then it would be interesting to know if he
provides a source for the reference.
> Pietro II de Oreseolo was Doge of Venice from 991-1009. It seems to
> be pretty well established that the wedding in question took place in
> 1004 in some sources between his son and a Byzantine princess.
Giovanni Oreseolo, eldest son of Pietro II, married Maria Argyra, niece of
Emperor Basil II, in Constantinople in 1004. Giovanni died in 1006.
Otto, the third son, married a daughter of Stephen I of Hungary and
succeeded Pietro as Doge. Orso and Vitale were churchmen.
> On the other hand Henrisch states and I believe one of our SCA
> colleagues too that the marriage was between a Byzantine princess and
> Domenice Selvo's son. Selvo was dogge between 1071-1081.
Doge Domenico Selvo married the Byzantine Princess, Teodora Doukaina,
daughter of Constantine X and sister of then Emperor Michael VII, in 1075.
Selvo was deposed in 1084 and died in 1087.
Interestingly, I've found references for both of these stories that have
Peter Damian speaking harshly about the conduct of the bride at the time.
Damian was born in 1007 (or possibly as early as 995) and died in 1072.
Thus he was probably not born when Giovanni Oreseolo married Maria Argyra
and was dead before Domenico Selvo married Teodora Doukaina, which make any
commentary upon the actions of the brides suspect until it can be
confirmed from a contemporary source.
> It seems to me that Alonso Luengo has a grammatical mishap as his
> subject here is that a fruit fork was served as a novelty to guests
> during Suero Quinones' tournament in Leon, Spain in the 1434 and that
> Henrisch has a mishap perhaps because the fork was supposedly pardoned
> (to an extent obviously) during Selvo's service as doge, i.e. some 70
> years after the marriage took place.
> Now for the Agrilio problem, there is a story that she was a Greek
> princess very much influenced by the Byzantines who used the fork at her
> wedding banquet with the son of the doge in 955 - that would mean Pietro
> III Candiano (942-959).
I'm wondering if Agrilio may not be an interpretation of Argyra and that
this story is that of the marriage of Giovanni Oreseolo attributed to the
wrong date.
While I don't have much on Pietro III Candiano, his eldest son, Pietro IV
Candiano, who was also Doge, set aside his first wife, Joan, for political
reasons and in 966 married Waldrada, daughter of Hubert, Duke of Spoleto.
> It could be possible as far as I know but then
> we get into a messy affair of the Church. Somehow beyond my knowledge it
> seems this had something do with the schism between the RC and the
> Orthodox Church in 1054 cause, I presume, the clergy of the RC Church
> identified the fork with the devil as DA indicates - you know the
> devil's pitchfork verses the natural gift of God that we have fingers as
> forks and using the devil's instrument, therefore, to transmit food from
> the plate to the mouth is an offense to God. - Here were get into Old
> Testament teaching that for any act against God, He strikes the Pharaoh
> or whoever down so therefore our heroine, whoever she is, dies some
> eight days after the wedding and in some stories the groom as well for
> trespassing the will of God.
As far as I can ascertain, the Great Schism was primarily due to language
and cultural differences and justified by differences in ritual and dogma.
Without documentable evidence that the RC Church in or around 1054
considered forks tools of the devil and/or prohibited or regulated their
use, presuming that they did so is fallacious reasoning.
> But Alonso points out fruit forks are permitted to carry out that
> function as long as the food transmitted to the mouth does not come from
> an animal (ok so we can eat hay with a fork, no?). Obviously that means
> fruit is ok. Don't know why eggplants and other plants consumed are not
> included. Why don't we have vegetable and legume forks except that
> generally those were included in pottages, perhaps?
> On the other hand the knife prior to the fruit fork was permitted to
> carry morsels of meat to the mouth. The blade of the knife is metallic no?
> Finally if metal is the question why was cutlery not all wooden? Why
> does the silver or pewter spoon come in centuries before the fork?
> The more I read the less I believe! Can anyone sort me out?
> Suey
The stories are good, but the facts don't fit. That screams apocrypha to
me. It's like George Washington and the cherry tree; great story, but the
invention of Parson Weems. In the matter of the fork, I'm of the opinion
it's time to go back to square one and look for primary sources.
Bear
<the end>