utensils-msg – 3/20/08
Period cooking gear. Utensils, trenchers, cast iron pots, wafer irons, salamanders.
NOTE: See also these files: p-tableware-msg, feastgear-msg, trenchers-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, lea-bottles-msg, forks-msg, spoons-msg, horn-utn-care-msg, ovens-msg, spits-msg, wood-utn-care-msg, mortar-pestle-msg, nefs-msg.
KEYWORDS: pots cast-iron pottery clay grills trivets gratings wafer irons.
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messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago
Everyone knows that the fork was introduced at the end of our period.
In fact, the earliest known picture of people eating with forks is
about 12th or 13th century (I can check--it is shown in a V&A
pamphlet on cutlery that I have). There are two Anglo-Saxon forks in
the British museum, and the Cleveland Museum of Art has a Byzantine
fork that is quite early (10th century? I don't remember). The fork
does not seem to become a standard utensil until c. 1600, but it
exists much earlier.
Everyone knows that coffee has always been an important element in
Islamic social life. In fact coffee does not spread out of its
original home, probably Abyssinia, until about the middle of the
fifteenth century; Cariadoc (c. 1100) has never heard of it.
William de Corbie asks about the Swedish prejudice against eating
horse meat. I believe the same prejudice shows up in the Norse Sagas.
If I remember correctly, there is passage in one of them where
someone insults someone else by accusing him of eating mare's meat.
Does anyone remember where?
Cariadoc
From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: iron pots
Date: 13 May 1994 20:36:18 GMT
Organization: Department of Chemistry
locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt) wrote:
> ALBAN at delphi.COM wrote:
>> [synopsis] bought a used pot, unknown past, how to clean, safety?
>
> So what's the problem? We cook in iron pots and pans around here all the
> time. You scour it with steel wool, oil it with olive oil, and use the
> silly thing. Just keep it oiled and don't let it rust.
errr, yes, but... there can be a few problems... it could have been used
as a solder pot, or coated with stove blacking to look nice. Some stove
blackings are made of black lead.
When I get a new pot or whatever, I test it for lead using a lead test
strip. You can buy these at various ceramic supply places. You get the
strip wet, and place it on the object... after a while a color change
indicates the presence of lead.
If there is no lead, I strip paints and blacking with paint stripper, followed
by a bath with Muriatic acid. The acid eats a lot of paints and iron oxide
but attacks cast iron very slowly. I then test it for lead again, just
to make sure nothing had been sealed below the surface. Then I season,
etc.
Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus
From: charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.EDU.AU (charles nevile)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast
Date: 27 Sep 1994 06:12:25 GMT
Organization: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia.
[....]
Plates were certainly around - it is correct that trenchers were given
either to servants, or more commonly to 'the poor'. We use them quite
frequently, and we just use a heavy loaf, round and about a handspan or
more across, and thick enough to slice donwe the middle (more or less).
They work remarkably well, but people tend to eat them as they go, so
that they are both too full to enjoy the later and nicest parts of the
feast, and in any case have nothing left to put it on...
have fun
charles
ragnar hraldsson, new varangian guard, vlachernai garrison
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 03:28:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Thomas S. Arnold (tarnold at hamp.hampshire.edu) wrote:
: Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period? I've
: tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying...
I believe one solution was to use a trivet -- an iron ring with three
longish legs.
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
From: corun at access1.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 06:36:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Heather Rose Jones <hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Thomas S. Arnold (tarnold at hamp.hampshire.edu) wrote:
>
>: Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period? I've
>: tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying...
>
>I believe one solution was to use a trivet -- an iron ring with three
>longish legs.
One year at Pennsic, as I was on an early morning walkabout taking some
photos of the various camps, I camp upon the Septentrians, and my friend,
Lady Tamarra, was making scones on an iron contraption that I thought was
rather unique. Not having the photograph with me, let me see if I can
conjure the image in my mind's eye for you. It was the basic three long
legs, bound at the top by a ring, and hanging from chains was a flat iron
disk suspended at a comfortable level above the fire. The scones, btw,
were delicious.
Septentria is known (at least to me personally) for their period cooking
accoutrements. One year they built a daub and wattle (if that's the right
terminology for mud and straw) oven. They baked breads and even a turkey
at Pennsic. If I remember aright, the oven was built up of firebrick,
and a large wok was inverted over the top of it. The whole was then covered
with mud and straw and left to harden.
Corun
===============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | "Have Mr. Labreay mount the 50 cals, and tell him
Dark Horde by birth | to watch out for icebergs and take no prisoners."
Moritu by choice | An anonymous Coast Guard Captain in NY Harbour
From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 14:05:48 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs
Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
Thomas the Tent-Peg of Bergental, amidst a fair quantity of
jokery, asked a real question that no one else has taken up,
so I thought I'd give it a try.
>Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period? I've
>tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying...
This isn't an area in which I've done a whole lot of research,
so this answer is rather rough-and-ready.
It rather depends on who you mean by "they". If you mean people
preparing food for the middle and upper classes, there's little
evidence I've ever seen that they did. Pilgrims ate their
hot meals at way stations (inns, etc.). Other travellors, one
presumes, did much the same. There is some evidence that some
hunting parties would have elaborate meals at midday, but none
whatsoever I have seen (I haven't gone digging for it, you
understand -- but I have had an active eye out for some years,
and have seen nothing amid the other stuff I've found) that
they were prepared over open fires (as opposed to prepared in
the kitchen, and brought out and maybe reheated (or maybe not)
under very controlled circumstances.
Armies certainly ate in the field. But armies travelled with
huge trains of wagons that carried their food (and other gear);
the sensible solution, if you have those, is a portable kitchen.
My impression is that hot food preparation for armies was
semicentralized; if that is true, it suggests that they brought
lots of stuff with them, and what they were doing cannot
reasonably be called "cooking over an open fire".
That being said, there are a number of "cook over the kitchen
fire" techniques that can be adapted to a more rustic setting.
One is a good solid tripod (or good solid spit) from which
hangs chains with hooks at multiple levels, and a long-handled
instrument (usually iron) for catching the bail of a pot and
transferring it from one hook to another, to bring it closer
to and further from the pot. Another is the use of a trivet
(iron stool, with a reasonable sized flat top, not solid --
in fact, mostly open) with long enough legs to keep the flat
surface out of the coals and flame. Use it as you would a
stove-top burner, to set pots and pans on. Adapt the heating
level by increasing/decreasing the amount of coals underneath.
(This is essentially a refinement of the pot-with-legs
approach.)
In either case, you want cooking implements (spoons, forks,
etc.) with _far_ longer handles than you are probably used
to working with.
I have such a trivet, made by Brock the Smith (Magic Badger
Iron Works). He also sells tripods (and spits), and some of
the relevant implements, and would doubtless make others to
order. I've used the tripod through several wars. I'm not
as handy with fine temperature control of fires as I might
be, so I admit to finding a gas stove simpler, but it works
fine, except that it really only takes one good-sized pot
at a time. Three or four of them would make a reasonable
start at a decent kitchen for real meals; one works okay for
one-pot meals.
One word of advice: if you want a spit to roast meat on, you
want more than just a piece of iron to go through the meat and
across to supports. You want it to have a system of little
knife-like stickers around one end, to hold the meat in place.
Otherwise, you will turn the spit inside the meat, while the
same (heaviest) side remains stubbornly toward the flame,
giving you a roast that is burned on one side and raw on the
other.
-- Angharad/Terry
From: andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 21:30:35 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
I missed the original question, but I did research this once, and
tried out some of the results. A warning, though - I don't have
my references handy. This will give you something to look for,
though. I had a friend who's a potter investigate this as well,
and she custom-made some clay "pot-with-legs" after a 12th century
German design. I used these at Pennsic one year and was greatly
pleased by them. To cook, you put the pot directly over the coals
once the flames have died down. The heat seems to stay concentrated
near the coals, and the pot can be lifted by hand using the two
"rings" of clay set into the rim. The pot can also be lifted out
of the fire and set on the ground nearby, and will retain the heat
on the bottom long enough to do more cooking with nice gentle, even,
heat. Some things become quite trivial to cook this way. My first
attempt was a period Spinach recipe. With added instructions for some
of the the cooking implements, it became:
Clean spinach and remove stems. Heat water to boiling in pot over coals,
boil the spinach leaves for a few minutes. Remove pot from coals and
drain the water, pressing the spinach with a wooden spoon to help drain it.
Remove and chop up the boiled spinach. By then the water has evaporated
from the pot. Put some olive oil in the pot and let it heat. Add spinach
and some ground nutmeg, and sautee, using the wooden spoon as a spatula,
for a minute or two.
Ten minutes to cook, only one pot, and not much fuss except for the
initial cleaning and de-stemming of the spinach.
: In either case, you want cooking implements (spoons, forks,
: etc.) with _far_ longer handles than you are probably used
: to working with.
Watch out of heat transmission through the handles of metal implements
of all sorts. Wooden-ended handles are a good thing.
Miklos Sandorfia
andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca
From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 1995 02:37:00 -0800
On the subject of metal handles: some period utensils had split and
re-woven handles. For some reason, this keeps the handles cool. (This is
why those old-timey wood stoves have the spring-like handles. Same
principle. Ask your local smith!)
... Moreach
From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: 9 Jan 1995 18:00:11 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs
Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
Eyrny responds to Moreach:
>>On the subject of metal handles: some period utensils had split and
>>re-woven handles. For some reason, this keeps the handles cool. (This is
>>why those old-timey wood stoves have the spring-like handles. Same
>>principle. Ask your local smith!)
>
>But they do get hot. It may take longer but it happens.
Well, sure they get hot if you leave them on the heat. So do wooden
ones.
The trick with any implement over _any_ heat source, is not to leave
it sitting exposed to the heat. Use it. Set it aside. Use it.
Set it aside again. Few handles heat intollerably while being used,
say, to stir something, faster than the hand and arm do on their
own.
But yes, the best metal implement handles are not solid -- and are
long enough to keep both the handle and the hand well out of the
fire.
-- Angharad
From: millsbn at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Bruce Mills)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cooking for fifty
Date: 19 Apr 1995 15:18:05 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Teach Mr T <teachmrt at aol.com> wrote:
]>Feeding the masses makes for happy masses.
]>
]>Actually, we'll have a fire pit, plus big pots and all the usual
]>accoutrements.
]>
]>Liam O'Donnabhan
Something that I have devised that I have found handy: Make a frame of
angle iron, drilled at the corners so you can bolt it together (and take
it apart), sized to fit grills from ovens. The grills actually stand up
to the heat of a fire pretty well, although you could probably make a
heavy duty grill out of welded rod if you wanted. The one I have devised
will fit three oven grills; you can cook stuff right on the grill, or it
will hold reasonably sized pots and pans. What I am looking for now is a
flat iron griddle, about the size of one of the grills, that will fit
right into the frame, and fry on that, instead of having to use pans (I
find the eggs don't stay on the grill very well). Steam trays would be
nice, too.
Akimoya(-dono)
From: gheston at nyx.cs.du.edu (Gary Heston)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cooking for fifty
Date: 23 Apr 1995 20:10:33 -0600
Diana Parker <parkerd at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>I'd just like another set of ideas for using my forged iron tripod.
>I can't afford the $300-600 for a cauldron, and I'm not sure what else to
>use it for. So far I've cooked a whole ham. It worked great, and the
>ham turned out fine.
What size cauldron are you looking at? I've found one of about
2 gallon size at an auction for $10. Bean/wash pots are also
common for about the same price/size (these have straight sides
instead of the indentation at the top).
>What's next???
I suppose you could attach a grate to the legs, and cook
on that.
Gary
From: jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Cooking for fifty
Date: 23 Apr 1995 16:37:08 -0400
Greetings, all, Angharad ver' Rhuawn here.
Tabitha asks,
> I'd just like another set of ideas for using my forged iron tripod.
> I can't afford the $300-600 for a cauldron, and I'm not sure what else to
> use it for. So far I've cooked a whole ham. It worked great, and the
> ham turned out fine.
>
> What's next???
Any pot or dutch oven with a bail (that is, a hoop, usually wire or
iron, to hold it by, like pails have) can be hung from a tripod. I
have a number of these that I picked up cheap (in the $5 to $15 range),
mostly at flea markets or Good Wills or the like; some are cast iron,
some aluminum. I don't use that many of them, because I also have a
trivet, roughly stool-high, that I use as a camp stove, but they
certainly work. Get a length of chain that will hang from the tripod
to not much above fire height, and some S-hooks. Put the S-hooks into
the chain at different heights; you can now suspend your pot high up
to stay warm, slightly lower to simmer, or quite low to boil.
-- Angharad/Terry
From: STDDLY at TINY_TIM.SHSU.EDU (7/11/95)
To: Mark Harris
> Reply to: Cauldrons
>
> What did you cook in your cauldron? How big of a cauldron was
> it? Was it made of iron or something else? Did you season it
> first?
>
> You mention that it's like a giant round bottomed skillet.
> Does this mean you can brown meat in it first, then add
> the other ingredients? Or did you simply throw everything
> in and cook as a stew or soup?
>
> Stefan li Rous
Greetings once more! Ya, they are just like a _big_ cast iron
skillet. Clean them thoroughly, season them well with cooking oil.
Yes you can brown meat in them, or just toss it all in and hope for
the best. It's always best to cook everything in the same order that
you would at home i.e. meat, onions, potatoes, celery, right down to
mushrooms last. This is for a stew, of course. Rule of thumb:
Hardest/longest to cook...first in. My cauldrons are about 15-20
each, cast iron, and _heavy_. For feasts I use hi-pressure burners to
bring the large amounts of water/food to a quick boil...then turn
them way down to simmer. On spices...for most spices, use handsful.
Of course, be careful with them, taste often, enjoy. After the meal,
clean well, season well, and store in a well ventilated, dry space.
Happy cooking!!
A. Kief av Kiersted (sometimes cook) L. Cockerham, Texan
P.S. Do NOT "nest" your cauldrons to transport...they will crack.
From: WILLIAM MICHALSKI <wjmichalski at beta.delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cast iron repair?
Date: 30 Aug 1995 12:45:27 GMT
ook at u.washington.EDU ('Riff' Beth Marie Mc Curdy) wrote:
> My household been looking for a big cauldron for some time, and I
>finally found one. Beautifully shaped, cast-iron, and easily two feet
>across the mouth... and some *idiot* had drilled a pair of holes in the
>bottom so as to use it as a planter.
>
> In addition to knocking an easy $200 of the value of item, these
>holes render the cauldron fairly useless for boiling water, bubbling
>stews, and doing other cauldron things.
I don't know about patching, but I do have pricing info from a place
called "Iron Craft", out of Ossipee, NH.
A new "sugar kettle" of 24" diameter is about $750 plus tax, shipping,
etcetera. It has 24 gallon capacity, and weighs just over 100 lbs.
They also offer ones in other sizes, ranging from 1.5 quart to 100 gal.
To get a catalog, write: Iron Craft
PO Box 369
Ossipee, NH 03864
or call 800-527-2079 (In NH 539-4114)
Mikhail
From: woofie at capital.NET (Susan Evans)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Trenchers
Date: 10 Dec 1995 22:48:02 -0500
>I've been thinking about doing this at the next event we go to. Is
>there anyone upon this bridge who has actually done this, or who can
>refer me to some reliable sources? What kind of bread? (Ie. white,
>wheat, etc.) What dimensions are period/preferable? Does it have to
>stale a bit before use? Should I make a bread "bowl" for soup, or
>would it be more period to use a wooden bowl for hot liquids?
>Should my lord and I share the bread trencher?
>
>I'll be grateful for any advice. I do regularly bake my own bread,
>so I don't need help with the basics.
>
>Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com
>SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East
A good source of this information is "A Boke of Nurture" which is part of
the old Early English Text Society publications. It may be available on
inter-library loan. Also available from Falconwood Press as a reprint. The
bread quality varies depending upon the status of the diner - nobles get the
good stuff and the peasants get coarse. We've used trenchers locally for
stews. Obviously you want a bread with a decent crust and some body to the
loaf. The high table had a trencher seated upon several other trenchers -
sort of a place-mat effect, I think. I strongly recommend the book as it
even gives the proper ceremony for cutting up the bread, setting the table,
etc. It's way too long to write out here. Yes, you can share a trencher
with your lord, BTW. If you can't get an inter-library copy, you can get a
copy of the Falconwood catalog from me.
Shoshonnah jehanne ferch Emrys, OL
From: jtn at newsserver.uconn.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Trenchers
Date: 11 Dec 1995 06:46:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Connecticut
Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
Mistress Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys wrote:
: A good source of this information is "A Boke of Nurture" which is part of
: the old Early English Text Society publications. It may be available on
: inter-library loan. Also available from Falconwood Press as a reprint. The
: bread quality varies depending upon the status of the diner - nobles get the
: good stuff and the peasants get coarse.
I'm a little confused. From my reading of Russell's Boke of Nurture (which
I assume is the one you mean? in Furnivall's volume called _Early English
Meals and Manners_?), the only distinction among kinds of bread is that
the lord of the hall gets today's baking, others who are not servants get
one day old, servants get three day old, and trenchers are made of four day
old. There is no suggestion that the original quality varies -- and no
mention at all of feeding peasants. By peasants, did you mean servants?
And by coarse, did you mean, less fresh? Or have you found something I
have not?
: We've used trenchers locally for
: stews. Obviously you want a bread with a decent crust and some body to the
: loaf.
But Russell describes squaring the trenchers, and slicing them vertically,
eliminating the crust. Are you inferring a strong crust from the fact
of good body, or from something else?
: The high table had a trencher seated upon several other trenchers -
: sort of a place-mat effect, I think. I strongly recommend the book as it
What I see, is a description of two separate things. First, there is a
layering of the table linens -- to provide a showy presentation surface.
(In fact, the poem specifies, at one point, that a top layer is to be
pleated elaborately to provide such a surface for the Sewer, whose job
is to arrange dishes.) Second, the high table's bread, including the
sliced and restacked trenchers, start out elaborately wrapped in linen
in front of the lord's seat -- but as soon as service starts, they are
moved away, and the lord winds up only with his own trencher. At least,
this is how I read the passage from line 208 to 268. Have I missed a
reference elsewhere?
: I strongly recommend the book as it
: even gives the proper ceremony for cutting up the bread, setting the table,
: etc. It's way too long to write out here.
No kidding. Yes, it's outstanding -- though after a while, I get frustrated
at the things it doesn't bother to mention, as it takes them for granted
(including, for instance, when the pottage gets into bowls, and what sort;
exactly how the kitchen serves out, and what the Sewer does with the stuff
once he gets it; and so on). And it's worth remembering that all this is
just one man's notion of how it should be done....
: Yes, you can share a trencher with your lord, BTW.
This makes sense, but can you specify a reference for it?
-- Angharad/Terry
From: "L. HERR-GELATT and J.R. GELATT" <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 10 May 1996 21:38:26 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.
To quote those in the know about metalurgy (quoting ME):
kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) wrote:
>David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:
>: Lady Aoife Finn wrote:
>
>: > Of course, I am referring to a large, heavy, round, footed, flat-top
>: > cast-iron pot, such as is frequently illustrated hanging over the open
>: > fires (!) in ancient kitchens.
>
>: Can you give period examples of such pictures? I associate cast iron pots
>: with something a little later than our period, but don't really know. The
>: metal cooking vessels I have seen from early period seem to be rivetted
>: together.
>
>: Messibugio (16th century) has pictures of pots, but I can't tell if they
>: are cast--the handles appear to be rivetted on, which suggests a raised
>: metal pot (why not cast them if you are casting the pot)? My vague memory
>: is that the English were casting iron cannon before 1600, so you would
>: think they could do it. On the other hand, cast pots tend to be heavy, and
>: if iron was still expensive .... .
>
> I believe that the blast furnace, needed to cast iron, was not
>invented until after 1700. All the cast cannon I've seen from before that
>were brass. However, the Chinese could cast iron during our period.
>They used a different process, and I believe had access to better ores
>than the West.
>
> All the examples of iron pots from viking sites are raised (hammered)
>peices. Small pots may be of a single piece, but large cauldrons are
>frequently several lames overlapped and riveted together. These, of
>course, are early/middle period.
>
> Unfortunately, all my references are at home, and a fairly exhaustive
>Web search has turned up nothing that might provide an answer.
>
> Avenel Kellough
And, I reply:
The first volume off the bookshelf proved to be Farmhouse Cookery
(English), Reader's Digest association, London, copyright 1980, with an
illustration that appears to be a wood-block, but source not being given
we shall never know. At any rate, there is a large pot in the picture
hanging from a chain attached to the overhead beam (caption: the price
of poverty.......), with a spit and drip-pan underneath, in the section
entitled The Medieval Peasant's Kitchen. Included are illustrations of
various cooking instruments including a boiler (riveted) and a legged fry
pan (either raised or cast, it is unclear). It is possible the large pot
I referred to was also raised.
A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version
of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace
(spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and
weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry
it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron*
bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out
to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental."
Next tome off the shelf: Old Cook Books,An Illustrated History, Eric
Quayle, Studio Vista Books, London, copyright 1978. we see a piece of
artwork by Pieter van der Borcht, showing a 16th century kitchen with a
very clearly arranged pot and chimnet crane. If the crane is cast, why
not the pot?
Gentlemen, will that do?
Aoife
From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 10 May 1996 19:27:32 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version
>of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace
>(spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and
>weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry
>it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron*
>bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out
>to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental."
>
>If the crane is cast, why >not the pot?
>Gentlemen, will that do?
>Aoife
Good Aoife; I really doubt the crane was cast iron; I have never seen a
cast iron crane and since I am a smith I do look! Are you sure the authors
know the difference between wrought iron and cast, (especially after long
exposure to the fire/water/ashes?. I have checked a couple of references
and none contain a cast iron crane while all refer to "wrought iron" cranes.
Perhaps the Reader's Digest book has a typo. Does anyone have knowledge
of "cast iron" cranes?
wilelm the smith who supports later period cast iron pots but *not* cast
iron cranes.
From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 11 May 1996 03:39:19 GMT
"L. HERR-GELATT and J.R. GELATT" <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> wrote:
> The first volume off the bookshelf proved to be Farmhouse Cookery
> (English), Reader's Digest association, London, copyright 1980, with an
> illustration that appears to be a wood-block, but source not being given
> we shall never know.
Could easily be post period. And any way, as you make clear, we don't know
if the pot illustrated was cast iron.
> A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version
> of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace
> (spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and
> weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry
> it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron*
> bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out
> to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental."
And secondary scholarship by someone we know nothing about. I don't know
the book, but the title doesn't suggest anything particularly scholarly.
> Next tome off the shelf: Old Cook Books,An Illustrated History, Eric
> Quayle, Studio Vista Books, London, copyright 1978. we see a piece of
> artwork by Pieter van der Borcht, showing a 16th century kitchen with a
> very clearly arranged pot and chimnet crane. If the crane is cast, why
> not the pot?
But how can you tell from the picture that the chimney crane is cast and
not forged? So far the only evidence for that is an assertion by an
unknown secondary source. And besides, casting a pot is a whole lot harder
than casting a chimney crane.
For what it is worth, Molly Harrison in _The Kitchen in History_ describes
chimney cranes as being wrought iron. She describes utensils as being made
of "iron, copper or brass" but doesn't say (so far as I have spotted so
far) whether they were cast.
> Gentlemen, will that do?
> Aoife
No, but it's a start.
David/Cariadoc
--
ddfr at best.com
From: kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 13 May 1996 16:10:28 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services
I believe I accidently sent the information I meant to post
directly to his Grace Cariadoc, rather than here, so I will try again.
I did some looking up this weekend, and I was flat wrong on
casting iron. According to the _Encyclopaedia Brittanica_, the Chinese
were casting iron by the 6th century BCE, and iron casting technology
appears in Europe by the 12th century CE. However, it remained a marginal
technology until the 17th. Early Blast furnaces were used to produce
pigs of iron that would then be wrought. The technology to produce malleable
cast iron, however did not appear until the 18th century, which is probably
what I was thinking about.
According to _The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Armor_, most
cannon were wrought iron until the 15th century, when cast bronze became
predominant. However, some iron-rich countries, like England, experimented
with cast iron cannon, as they were much cheaper than the bronze ones.
Henry VIII established a foundry in Sussex for just this purpose. The cast
iron cannon were vastly inferior to the bronze ones, and tended to explode.
Burke's _Life in a Medieval Castle in England_ shows a cast bronze
cooking pot, with no date attributed, that has three very long feet and rings
for hanging. _The Viking_ by Almgren, Blindheim, and Eldjarn shows two iron
pots. There is a small one made by raising from sheet iron, and a larger
one made by dishing 6 - 8 lames, and riveting them to each other and to a
dished bottom.
I feel that cast iron pots for late period are likely. While I
haven't yet found one, it makes sense that if cast iron cannon are cheaper
than cast bronze cannon, then cast iron pots are likely cheaper than
cast bronze, of which we know that at least one was made.
Avenel Kellough
From: Karsten Shein <K.Shein at uea.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 14 May 1996 09:03:09 GMT
Organization: Climatic Research Unit-University of East Anglia
kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) wrote:
>David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:
>: Lady Aoife Finn wrote:
>
>: > Of course, I am referring to a large, heavy, round, footed, flat-top
>: > cast-iron pot, such as is frequently illustrated hanging over the open
>: > fires (!) in ancient kitchens.
>
>: Can you give period examples of such pictures? I associate cast iron pots
>: with something a little later than our period, but don't really know. The
>: metal cooking vessels I have seen from early period seem to be rivetted
>: together.
>
>: Messibugio (16th century) has pictures of pots, but I can't tell if they
>: are cast--the handles appear to be rivetted on, which suggests a raised
>: metal pot (why not cast them if you are casting the pot)? My vague memory
>: is that the English were casting iron cannon before 1600, so you would
>: think they could do it. On the other hand, cast pots tend to be heavy, and
>: if iron was still expensive .... .
>
> I believe that the blast furnace, needed to cast iron, was not
>invented until after 1700. All the cast cannon I've seen from before that
>were brass. However, the Chinese could cast iron during our period.
>They used a different process, and I believe had access to better ores
>than the West.
>
> All the examples of iron pots from viking sites are raised (hammered)
>peices. Small pots may be of a single piece, but large cauldrons are
>frequently several lames overlapped and riveted together. These, of
>course, are early/middle period.
>
> Unfortunately, all my references are at home, and a fairly exhaustive
>Web search has turned up nothing that might provide an answer.
>
> Avenel Kellough
I'll quote "Norwich Households: Medieval and Post-Medieval Finds from
Norwich Survey Excavations 1971-78" p.90..."IV. Vessels (copper alloy;
iron; wood; glass) Copper alloy vessels... In general, the assemblages
contain very few copper allow vessels, which reflects their high cost as
compared with ceramic or wooden vessels.... Part of a large bowl made of
hammered copper alloy sheet with an everted rim survives (566). Cast
cauldrons and skillets [3-legged bowl shaped with long handles--not to be
confused with modern definition] are represented. Legs of two types are
known; straight ridged legs (565), and legs with feet, perhaps from ewers
(567B, 568, 569). .... Cauldrons are shown in use in a marginal
illustration in the 14th-century 'Romance of Alexander' (Fig. 56): they
have [looped] handles, and at least one has three legs; the two smaller
cauldrons contain other vesssels, probably ceramic, and presumably
functioned as double-boilers. Such vessels were in use throughout the
Middle Ages, eityher in an open fire, or suspended from a hook above it."
and p. 94..."Iron vessels, by Ian H. Goodall ... Iron vessels are among
the least well represented items of kitchen ironwork, partly because in
the medieval period, as no doubt later too, copper alloy vessels were far
more numerous than those of iron (Field 1965, 135-45; Moorhouse 1987,
vi-viii). The iron vessels from Norwich, 581-590, are of both medieval
and later date .... The most significant individual find, however, [is]
a long-handled pan... The bowl of this pan is fragmentary but the long,
solid, tapering handle, designed to keep the user away from the fire, and
to limit the conduction of heat, is almost complete. Pans of this form
are not infrequently depicted in illustrations close to the date of the
1507 fire, including the Kuchmaistrey published in Augsburg that
year...and that of a pan-smith in 1544. One with a flatter pan is shown
in a 15th-century French manuscript. 582-585 are cast iron vessel
fragments of post-merdieval date, 584, from a cauldron, being the most
notable. They may be comapred with similar 17th-century cast-iron
vessels from Chingley Forge, Kent, and elsewhere..." note: The
illustration of the pan looks like it is all hammered work (not cast) and
it resembles a modern frying pan with a dished bottom (almost like a
giant dipper [ladle]).
Cheers
KS
From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 15 May 1996 22:00:58 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>note: The
>illustration of the pan looks like it is all hammered work (not cast) and
>it resembles a modern frying pan with a dished bottom (almost like a
>giant dipper [ladle]).
>KS
I've taken the liberty of hacking quite a bit off the top, (call me Sweeny);
to make mention of a simple and inexpensive method for forming such a skillet.
Start with a pressed iron skillet, (fleamarket US$1-5) and dish the bottom
(Any armourer should be able to help with a stump-sandbag-dishing stake)
Once it has been dished and planished you can rivet legs to it and cut off
the original handle and rivet a long tapering handle to it. This will
not conduct heat exactly like cast iron----but forged pots are also known.
wilelm the smith
From: ateno at panix.com (E. Rhude)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Seasoning" Cast Iron Ware
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 22:27:56 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
rolf at deltainet.com (Pendraco) wrote:
> Cast iron is my favorite type of pan, but I have carpel tunnel in my
> wrists so I can't lift any but the smallest skillets. I've been using
> my grandmother's square skillet for about fifteen years (and I got it
> after my mom used it for twenty years, and my grandmother for who
> knows how long). It sounds like a lot of work, but it really only
> takes a few seconds.
Agreed completely with your views on cast iron cookware, but it does have
its limitations, like everything else. For instance, certain things like
various fruit dishes tend to discolor when cooked in iron. My solution is
often to simply not worry about it. I've found breads and pizzas are
excellent cooked in cast iron, lacking a brick oven.
A couple of points you may find interesting:
First, in view of your carpal tunnel condition, I wonder if you've tried
using HEAVY aluminum pans, like the saute pans that are generally used in
restaurant kitchens. They too will season, in the same way as iron, more
or less. You just need to heat/oil it an extra couple of times. One of the
frequently mentioned drawbacks is with aluminum's tendency to react to
acids by discoloring food or giving it an off flavor. This, of course, is
much less noticeable when the pan is properly seasoned. It's probably a
good idea to use a wooden or plastic spatula as well, since aluminum is a
bit softer than iron and might therefore scratch.
Another possibility is with one of my favorite pans: a cheap, soft,
not-too-well-tempered low-carbon steel omelette pan. For about $5 you can
get, at a restaurant supply house, pans like these in various sizes. They
are quite lightweight, easily seasoned, and behave in most respects like
their heavier iron counterparts. Because they lack the mass of the iron
pans, they do develop "hot spots" when used over extremely high heat for
prolonged periods. Probably why they're generally used for omelettes!
Gideanus Tacitus Adamantius / P. Troy
c/o E. Rhude
From: powers at skink.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Seasoning" Cast Iron Ware
Date: 3 Aug 1996 18:26:50 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>I know cast iron isn't period, but hey, who cares?
>
>Vicente Coenca, Three Rivers, Calontir
Documentation please. "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" mentions
cast iron as being made in a fairly good range of countries during late
period time; so I would like to see some documentation---yea or nay---on
whether cast iron cookware was/was not available. My copy of "Iron and
Brass Implements of the English Home" seems to indicate that cast iron
cookware was available---though this is probably not the most authoritative
of sources.
BTW cast brass/bronze pots were known and probably would have profited
by a good THICK layer of seasoning to cut down on metal transfer.
wilelm the smith---who wrote TI about that glaring error in their
review of "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" but has not seen a
correction yet.
From: ateno at panix.com (E. Rhude)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic cooking
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:48:27 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US> wrote:
> Rowan <rowan at net-link.net> wrote:
> >I have had some good luck cooking outdoors with a cast-iron dutch oven,
> >which has prepared bread, quiche, fruit cobblers and brownies from the
> >campfires over the last couple of years at Pennsic and other events.
> > How period is a dutch oven? It's an iron pot with an iron lid
you put in the fire. That's pretty low-tech.
> > Rowan.
>
> Modern dutch ovens, however, are CAST iron, and I don't think _that_ is a
> primitive technology... While early peoples did cast small objects,
> forged iron, and cast larger objects in other metals (bronze, silver,
> gold), casting even something the size of a medium-size dutch oven, IN
> IRON, would have, I think, required technological advances on the order
> of what it took, in late period, to cast cannon.
>
> I'm sure some metal-worker out there will be able to confirm or refute my
> gut reaction?
>
> Chimene
You're right! Cast iron pots might be technically within period, but late
period if so. I believe cast iron Dutch ovens fall within this category.
We tend to think of pots for food as being heated from beneath, while
Dutch ovens are heated, hopefully, from all around. Medieval cooking pots
are often heated from the side, or some combination of side and bottom,
because they couldn't stand being heated very hot at only one point.
Because, you see, they were generally made of earthenware of some type, or
beaten brass, copper, or bronze.
If you look at various ornamental cauldrons taken from different Iron Age
Celtic digs, you'll see that they're made of several pieces, rivetted
together like a spangenhelm. Whether or not this holds true for pots
actually used for cooking, I can't say, and this is an example of
pre-medieval technology, anyway. However, there are enough references in
the medieval recipes and elsewhere to suggest that cast iron was not very
common, if used at all. Both Kenelm Digby and Gervase Markham, in their
brewing recipes, call a kettle or cauldron a "Lead", which leads me to
believe the possibility exists that such pots were once made of lead
(shudder) and that the name is a reference to the metal from which they
were made, or a throwback to that time, anyway.
Anyway, unless iron pots were forged or rivetted from pieces, they'd have
to be very late period.
G. Tacitus Adamantius ? P. Troy
c/o E. Rhude
From: dickeney at access4.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic cooking
Date: 24 Aug 1996 16:24:06 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
E. Rhude <ateno at panix.com> wrote:
[snip]
> ...there are enough references in
>the medieval recipes and elsewhere to suggest that cast iron was not very
>common, if used at all. Both Kenelm Digby and Gervase Markham, in their
>brewing recipes, call a kettle or cauldron a "Lead", which leads me to
>believe the possibility exists that such pots were once made of lead
>(shudder) and that the name is a reference to the metal from which they
>were made, or a throwback to that time, anyway.
If you've ever let a candle burn down in a pewter candlestick, you would
know just how fast lead melts under direct heat. (Though Kenelm Digby
does refer to a pewter brasier, so perhaps there was a _very_ low-lead
pewter.) I doubt that anyone made a kettle or cauldron out of lead -- not
twice, anyway! :)
Tamar the Gypsy
From: Andrew Tye <atye at efn.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brazier
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:21:04 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Chris Bays wrote:
> At Lilies last summer, I found a brazier which (silly me), I
> decided not to buy. It was a tripod, from which was suspended a pan for
> the fire, a grille, and a hook to hang a pot. Of course, now I want to
> find one, and can't. If anyone knows who may carry a similar thing, or of
> someone who makes them, please let me know. Post here or reply to:
> maredudd at pagan.com. Thanks a bunch.
>
> Lady Maredudd
Ivar here,
The type of of firepit that you are describing in pretty much endemic in
the West Kingdom and to a lesser extent in An Tir due to prohibitions on
building ground fires. If you can get access to a copy, T.I. #78, AS XXI,
(Spring, 1986), has an article on the design and construction of this
firepit. It is by Duke Frederick of Holland who I believe is also the
inventor. As to current sources of the pits themselves, I believe that
Iron Castle Armory in southern Oregon in making them, (I do not have an
address or number for them), and there may be others as well.
Ivar Hakonarson
Adiantum, An Tir.
From: pcrandal at flash.net (P. Crandall Polk)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cauldrons?
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 22:25:30 GMT
noxgas at non1.med.nottingham.ac.uk (Gina Stammers) wrote:
>Does anyone know a supplier of sturdy cauldrons that could be used on
>an open fire? Especially in the UK, any advice would be gratefully
>received.
>
>Gina Stammers
Though under construction, they may be able to get you a real catalog.
Good luck.
--
Crandall
Non sum qualie eram
From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cauldrons?
Date: 10 May 1997 15:26:08 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>> Does the authenticity matter? (and if so what time/place?)
>
>Authenticity isn't essential. We are live roleplayers who dabble in and
>are tending towards Dark Age (Saxon/Viking/Romano-British) re-enactment
>and if the cost difference isn't massive an period cauldron would be
>useful so that it could be used if we do any strict living history
>stuff.
>
>> how large?
>
>A few gallons. Big enough for a stew for twenty people.
>
>> (remember that cast iron is a late period item, cast bronze a good
>> most of the period item, and beaten bronze/iron for earlier period)
>
>I'd assume that a cast bronze cauldorn doesn't come cheap. A beaten iron
>one would be ideal. A cast iron one is what I'm expecting to end up with.
>Dave Barnett
so here are my recomendations within certain criteria:
For size: 20 people x 1 quart per person--you're out in the weather right?
so 5 Gallons or so---large and heavy as cast iron, easier as a constructed
version.
Non-period---check out the scrapyards, you may be amazed at what is
already out there in pretty much the right shape and size and only needing
some legs rivited on or a spider constructed for it or more period--just
a good strong bail.
Give some thought to stainless steel if you can find a proper piece,
(a food processing plant near my old digs used to junk globose stainless
pieces in a variety of sizes..) Due to easy of care stainless is not a
bad choice and as the outside can be left in a "fired" condition it
won't look as bad as you may think.
For a more period look: find someone making spangen helms and sell them
on making a proper constructed kettle.
Going all out: find wrought iron sheet and a good smith to hammer one out.
Watch out for: metals exposed to un-known chemicals---why I liked the food
processing plant cast offs
metal primed with lead primer
brass/bronzes of unknown composition (lead sneaks in)
Advice think about "tinning" the interior of your kettle to stop leaks
and provide a food safe barrier, (NOTE pure tin as is used to line copper
cookware *NOT* solder!)
Beware cracked castiron pots, pots nearly rusted through, and those
"improved" as flowerpots by having holed drilled in the bottom.
wilelm the smith
From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mustard Colored Fabric (Dye experiments)
Date: 8 May 1997 17:18:26 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
My messenger having failed in his task has found me on this bridge
watching the tide turn and the odd feud victim float by. Being a kind
(no remarks as to *what* kind...) person I have "let him go" and will
endeavor to deliver the contents myself...
Re: the type of pots used to dye in the medieval period
<deletia>
>BTW, I've never seen it written that iron pots (which dull dyes and
>roughen the wool) were what caused peasants to wear dull autumn colors.
>IMHO, though, porcelain-coated dye vats would seem 'way more expensive
>and unreachable for peasants than iron kettles. That may be why lower
>classes dressed dull, while the wealthier wore bright colors. There may
>be a TI article in there somewhere.
>Regards, Lady Meara al-Isfahani
Gracious Lady Meara; perhaps investigation into what was used in period
times as dyepots would be a good first step.
Although we are conditioned to immediatly think of cast iron as the
"old cauldron", cast iron only starts showing up in widespread use in the
1400's. Prior to that most "cast" pots were brass or bronze and so
would leach copper, tin and zinc into the dyevat if used. However
for large tanks that would not exceed the temperature of boiling water
*lead* was usually the material of choice! Built up pots constructed of
sheatmetal could be wrought iron or bronze if small but tended more toward
bronze for larger ones. (there is also other time-period shifts of usage).
None of this covers the use of "pottery" pots which were common and came
in a range of sizes--Theophilus mentions one large enough to put a goat
in to collect its urine (circa 1120 A.D.).
My first guess as to a large dyevat for a professional dyer would be lead
followed by bronze. For a small "local" dyer I would probably *guess*
pottery followed by bronze. I would think that iron was very un-likely
especially for a professional who needed a large vat---even after
cast iron became available!
Remember that using your cooking pot for dyeing may result in dying!
So a peasant may not want to use a very expensive iron pot when a cheaper
one may be available.
wilelm the smith, married to a spinster who has been teaching spinning for
over 20 years and pressed into service on a regular basis to provide
dye pots, vats and materials. (we did a traditional indigo tank once that
was around 3/5ths my production....)
I welcome information to correct any "assumptions" I may have made as this
is *not* my primary area of interest!
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:25:06 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: Cast iron cookpots (was: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #183)
On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, david friedman wrote:
> interested. We use it because it is the most period seeming thing we can
> readily get, but would be happy to shift to something better.
I'm in (approximately) the same position; while the "100% certified
period" cookware for my persona (10th c scandinavian) would be iron and
soapstone pots, perhaps with some clay, I have to settle for less. More or
less readily available are iron plate pots (any competent SCA armourer
should be able to manufacture these [1]), but the cost is beyond my
present budget (IIRC $75-100/ea).
Soapstone would have to be purchased and worked, and are fragile as well.
Clay is another option, but they share the fragility with the soapstone,
and I do not currently have the skill to manufacture them. I am also
uncertain as to what extent they are period.
My solution so far has been to use aluminium billy can type pots. These
have the advantage that they look fairly much like the original when
viewed from the outside (when suitably blackened), and are durable and low
cost. But they are a compromise.
/UlfR
[1] Most examples I have seen have the welds on the inside, thereby making
them waterproof. I do not know how the originals were waterproofed, but
several methods could have been used[2]. I would very much welcome
information on what methods _were_ used in period.
[2] Solder, pitch, etc. I do not now if (forge-)welding would have been
possible.
- --
Par Leijonhufvud par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cast iron cookpots
At 11:25 AM +0200 7/3/97, Par Leijonhufvud wrote:
>Soapstone would have to be purchased and worked, and are fragile as well.
Soapstone griddles can be purchased; we used to use one at home when I was
growing up to cook sourdough pancakes on. Soapstone pots, on the other hand
... .
David/Cariadoc
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:32:57 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: SC - Re- Cast iron cookpots
On 3 Jul 1997, Mark Harris wrote:
> Perhaps this is a European term. What is a "billy can" type pot? Are these
> stamped or cast out of alluminum?
Stamped or spun, thin (perhaps 2mm thick) aluminium pots with a wire
"bucket type" handle (so you can hang it over the fire). Look for open fire
type backpacking supplies.
/UlfR
- --
Par Leijonhufvud par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:04:55 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Snails and Salamand
Marisa Herzog wrote:
> <snip>
> To use a salamander, make a recipe's worth of Digby's Savory Toasted Cheese,
> or perhaps a Cambridge Burnt Cream. Take your salamander and heat it in the
> coals until red hot, or if it is the kind that you fill
> <snip>
>
> [horrified wail!] I hope that a "salamander" as used above is some sort of
> cooking iron and not a slow cute little amphibian!
> -brid
> (a die hard omnivore, who knows where her steak comes from, but is now haunted
> by images of charred amphibians)
Gotcha!!! A salamander generally looks kinda like a solid disk-shaped
branding iron. You heat it and bring it really close to the surface you
are trying to brown. The name salamander as a culinary tool has survived
as the name of those eye-level broilers you sometimes see in restaurant
kitchens. Salamanders as heraldic/mythical beasts are more or less made
of fire, hence the imagery.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:56:00 -0700
From: DUNHAM Patricia R <Patricia.R.DUNHAM at ci.eugene.or.us>
Subject: SC - wafer irons, where to find
Oops, I'm answering the question that wasn't asked! 8-0!! Thought they
said WAFER iron, not WAFFLE iron... figured it out when editing down the
previous- message-enclosed bit. Answer works anyway. 8-)
- - - - - - - - - - - -
You can always try big flea markets. I've found two nice,
put-it-over-the-burner or camp fire-source Scandinavian style cast-iron
wafer irons at our local big-flea-market in the past 5 years. Of
course, I'm in the Pacific NW, and there are a number of Scandinavian
enclaves up here. (One of the irons has a Scandinavian maker's mark, am
not sure about the other. One may actually be more like aluminum??)
These are NOT Waffle irons, either. (A wafer iron is a pizzelle iron?,
makes a flat, elaborately patterned (like an etching), crisp round (6"?)
that's 1/8 inch or less thick. A waffle iron has an internal grid of
1/4 inch square depressions, the campfire ones may come in round or
single square shapes.) We saw waffle-irons about 20 times more
frequently (at Picadilly) than wafer irons during that 5 year period...
The patterns look reasonable, and I've actually used them (at home) over
an open-fire heat-source. Have only tried a couple of times, don't have
the recipe settled yet. They'd make great ice-cream cones 8-)
Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401
patricia.r.dunham at ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:25:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Advice -- Tools for crushing stuff (was shortbread help)
I am taking to heart the advice to crush the shortbread, but wondering
what tools (short of running over it with the car) would be best. This
isn't really a narrow question about this particular bit of shortbread,
but a broader question about, for example, what types of mortars and
pestles are best for what uses (I've seen advertised mortar and pestle
sets made out of wood, ceramic, and brass; what works best where?)
I'd suggest a modern food processor,with the sharp metal chopping blade.
Not a mortar and pestle, unless you feel a great desire to do handwork.
When I was in France, some years ago, I saw a period food processor: a very
large wheel, studded with blades, that spun and was inserted into a narrow
round bottom bowl, and with a feeder chute on the top. It gives me a small
justification for using a Cuisinart or whatever when I need to.
Tibor
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:56:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: #328-31
<< I dunno. Like I said, I saw it in a kitchen when I was in Europe, and
played with it. No one there could even tell me what it was called: but the
sign on the room dated it to period.
Tibor >>
I don't suppose you could draw it for us?....................hmmmmmm. :-)
No. I draw worse than I dance. (:-)
It was a large wheel, the size of a rotary whetstone or a small car tire,
made of wood. It had metal blades (not particularly sharp) studing it. It
was encased in a round wooden box, that opened like a flip top lid for
cleaning. The bottom of the box had a chute or hole, with room for a bowl
to be placed on the floor underneath. The top had a chute for dropping food
onto the wheel. The wheel had a large crank coming out one side. You
obviously turned the crank, the wheel would spin with great momentum, and
then you'd drop food down the chute on top, and mush would come out the
bottom. The whole was about as tall as a short man or average woman.
Tibor (6' tall, if you want to discuss short or average height. :-)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:17:05 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Romertopf?
>What is a romertopf?
>
>Marjorie
Romertopf is a modern clay cooking pot with a clay cover. It is similar
to the cloche, a clay dome placed on a baking stone to serve as a
portable oven. This method of baking has been employed since antiquity.
There is a photograph of an Athenian cloche excavated from the Agora in
Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery.
Bear
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:58:25 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - Couple of Questions for Y'all
>Subject: Re: SC - Couple of questions for ya'll...
>
>> The early equivalent to aluminum foil was usually leaves and/or (clayish)
>> mud covering. Don't know when it started, but since it's found in many
>> cultures worldwide, I suspect it has been independently discovered a
>> zillion times.
>
>I've also baked a ham in rye dough, as per a recipe we were trying to do from
>a period source the hostess had. It didn't make much difference in the taste,
>so we abandoned the idea as too cumbersome for a feast of any size. Since it
>was easy to find I assume it was late period.
>
>Corwyn
There really is no "one period way" to cook individuallly wrapped dishes,
though that technique was know and used inperiod. Dough (discarded or not
afterwards), leaves, clay, straw or hay (which adds a neat flavor to ham),
the item's own skin, dredgings, and paper were all used to coat cooked
items and shield it somewhat from excessive drying or scorching in the heat
of the fire or oven while cooking. I personally have read referances to all
of these things being used.
Dough: Apecius, The ham with fig sauce recipe.
Straw/hay: Molokhovet's Gift to Young Housewives and other Slavic Sources
such as Domostroi and Brad and Salt ( Gift is OOP but large chunks probably
date to a period practice).
Dredgings: Any Medieval European cookbook such as Taillevant, etc....
Paper: Late period bakery items such as Housewife's Jewel (Dawson) have us
putting the small cakes on papers in the oven to dry. I also saw a recipe I
cannot recall for papered fish somewhere, and vaguely remember some (Martha
Washington or Possibly some other slightly OOP source) directions to shield
something on top with paper , a bakery item I seem to recall, possibly from
Mrs. McClintock's Receipts for Cookery and Pastrywork (or something
remarkably similar), Ed. Isabail MacLeod, Glasgow U. Press, which is the
first *published* scottish cook book, tho OOP by a fair margin.
Leaves and Clay: Archaeological evidence of excavated household fire pits
and trash dumps.
So you can see, though I'm a little fuzzy this A.M., that the concept of
Aluminium Foil ie: wrapping/covering food prior to cooking or using a
substance as a heat barrier while cooking is not a new thing. Foil is a
handy substitute, but I believe we should also remember that it does not
impart any flavor to the food being cooked (other than a possible aluminium
taste), the way hay or leaves or dredgings or dough might do. So when you
are substituting for modern ease of preparation, you may well be changing
the character of the dish.
I am remnded of the recipe I have always meant to try, but never got the
chance: Rye or Black bread dough baked in cabbage leaves (which act as a
bread pan). Cabbage can get almost sweet, and I imagine would impart a green
flavor to the dough. Has anyone tried this? I ran across it in a secondary
source while looking for Russian foodstuffs a few years ago.
And, when you are gathering leaves for wrapping, remember: Leaves of Three,
let them be ;^D!
Aoife---waiting for the caffeine to hit the bloodstream
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:41:30 -0000
From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk>
Subject: RE: SC - RE: Introduction--Reply, Query
...
going back to Aoife's question
> reliably over a fire, in addition to other methods), I am a little stumped
> as to acoutrements---are there any period-type implements out there, and
> where do I get them? Any ideas?
[Yeldham, Caroline S]
the best evidence I've come across is Bartelomeo Scarpi's drawings -
do you know them? They cover 'how to lay out a kitchen', 'what you need for
a field kitchen' (which is the best for this situation), kitchen knives and
equipment; other kitchen equipment; how to get food into a Conclave (he
cooked for a Cardinal who became a pope) etc etc. He is late 16th century
and italian, but a lot of what he shows turns up in earlier drawings - at
least it looks very similar. Barbara Hentisch's 'Fast and Feast' has 14th
century pictures showing very similar stuff. Scarpi hasn't been published
(so far as I know), but is used by other cooks for illustrations- and the
best version I've seen is in a Penguin Paperback of Elizabeth David's
Italian Cooking.
As for getting hold of it, in the UK we are beginning to get
re-enactment suppliers who are prepared to copy drawings and make things.
As I understand it, anyone doing iron work, swords, armour, etc, should be
able to make these things - whether they are prepared to, or how much it
would cost, I don't know.
> I have a tripod, hooks and chains, kettles
> (large and small), etc. but need a pot lifter, a trivet, a spit
> (adjustable), and some fire-tiles.
[Yeldham, Caroline S]
As I recall it, our spit and trivet, which are about 18 months old,
cost about UKP250, by a specialist maker. The spit has racks on both sides
giving full flexibility, stands about 5' high and about 6' long - the spit
itself is about 7' long - we can comfortably cook two deer legs on it. Not
sure of the maximum weight it will take - we haven't had the problem so far!
I'm usually feeding about 40 people. The trivet is about 2' by 3' and
stands 2' high on solid ground - it has parallel bars across it which are
close enough to be able to roast mackeral on without worrying that too much
will fall in the fire (and very good they tasted)
Pot lifter? Presumably you don't mean a cloth! With big pots I
rely on a solid piece of wood and two strong gentlemen (some of the pots I
have to work with are too big for me to lift empty!)
> I'd also like some "hot shot", which a
> local rev-war group uses to heat their dishwater---it's basically a
> gate-weight or small cannonball with an cast iron loop attached. You throw
> it in the fire, and when you're ready to wash dishes, you fish it out with
> a
> fire iron and swirl it in your tub of water---instant hot dishwater!
[Yeldham, Caroline S] Gosh! havn't tried that. I usually put a
cauldron of hot water on about when we start serving up and by the time the
washer-uppers have finished eating, its warm enough.
Caroline
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:33:55 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - pot lifter
> Pot lifter? Presumably you don't mean a cloth! With big pots I
>rely on a solid piece of wood and two strong gentlemen (some of the pots I
>have to work with are too big for me to lift empty!)
>[Yeldham, Caroline S]
It stands upright, and had a wooden handle (looks sort of like a footed
cane). The central of the three feet at the bottom is attached, via a long
pole, to the handle with a hinge. It (the central prong) has an L shaped
end. The gist of it is that you stand at normal posture and hook the L over
either the lid handle or the pot handle. You squeeze the cane handle and
the L tightens on the pot's handle, and you lift the cane handle and put the
pot where you want it.
I also have been given a wholly historically fictional but wonderfully
useful stainless steel pole and rack which work by tension (pole through a
hole on the rack's handle---rack shaped like a paddle). With a pot on the
rack, tension will hold it where you place it, and you can swing it in and
out of the fire as needed. The height isn't adjustable, tho, once the pot is
on the rack.
I have been looking for a big cauldron (local community center uses one for
a flower planter---but won't sell it to me!!!grrrrrrr). I really didn't give
much thought to what I would do with one once I had it!!! I have two now,
one is about 1 1/2 US gallons, one is about 1 gallon. They suffice for small
crowds. I resort to stock pots for larger crowds!
Aoife
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:34:53 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <IVANTETS at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - cooking without fire, among others
Aoife, one of the very accessible fire tools here (apart from
the 3-legged pots, which can be HUGE) is the spider. It's a triangle
with legs, and you rest your pots on it. I'm fairly certain I've
seen them in Scappi. They come in varying heights, and last year
ranged from R13-R19 (US $2-4). Maybe we can come to some
arrangement?
Cairistiona
IVANTETS at BOTZOO.UCT.AC.ZA
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:24:15 +1100 (EST)
From: Charles McCathieNevile <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SC - pot lifter
There is a historical device for hanging a pot on over a fire. It relies
on having a beam above the fire, and is adjustable. I think the original
illustration I have seen is in the Maciejowski bible - a 13th C set of
miniatures mostly in the Pierpont collection, And published as _Old
Testament Miniatures_, Sydney Cockerel, London 1967. I forget the
publisher.
The beasty consists of a flat toothed piece of Iron, one end bent over to
hang on the beam, and at the other end, on the non-toothed bar, a small
loop. A rod goes through the loop, and has a hook at the bottom (down
past the toothed flat piece, and on the other end a hinged loop of its
own, large enugh to slide over the teeth, and pull into one to fix the
height.
I guess this is not very easy to imagine, but the same thing is made by
blacksmiths today.
Charles Ragnar
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:07:22 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen kits (long)
Hi all from Anne-Marie.
First off, let me salute you, Celestria! A period encampment is a step that
many SCA folks just dont want to bother with, for a lot of reasons. Good
for you! I'm attempting the same thing, and have made some observations by
looking mostly at non-SCA medieval recreation groups and lots of primary
source material.
To cook "medievally" you need:
1. fire source. Much depends on your kingdom, and where you live. The
oh-so-medieval ground fires are almost always verbotin here, so I'm
commissioning a fire box type gizmo from a local guy with a forge. It will
be the requisite foot off the ground, and fairly shallow. My reserach shows
that food was cooked on charcoal more than fires (I even have a picture of
cooks cooking on little black squares. Briquets! :)). But both wood and
charcoal wre used and are represented in the primary source material.
You'll need a way to start your fire, whether flint and steel (The Duke of
Burgundy's badge was a fire striker), or a couvre chef (a little domed
gizmo to cover the coals from the night before so you can start the next
days fire with them). I've seen SCA contraptions of braziers that fold
up...not very medieval, but slick. I've seen fireboxes made out of half
barrels (sliced longwize and set up on bricks so their off the ground), the
tops to a hot water heater, etc etc etc. The possibilities are endless,
even for the finanically constrained.
2. Fire toys. Pokers and prodders and pot lid lifters and hooks and chains
and a trammel to suspend pots over your fire. If you cover your fire area
with a canvas tarp you will be safe from sun and rain. I saw a neat gizmo
at GWW of a blow pipe...a small bit of metal pipe with a cap with ahole in
it. Blow on the fire to get it going. Neat! And just like the medieval
copper smelters.
3. Pots. Medieval pots were copper, tin, ceramic, etc. I am planning on
making do with the more readily accessible cast iron. 18th century
recreationists sutlery sells neat ones with feet that look just like the
medieval ones, not the flatter modern Lodge cast iron style, and for about
the same price. I also saw footed skillets and am attmepting to pin one of
those down. Most cool! You'll need stirring things as well...skimmers and
ladles and spoons and a fleshe forke if you want to get really authentic
about it.
4. A wooden bucket of water and/or sand right near by. Just in case, its
fire after all. You can get these through the sutlers, or Panther
Primitives, etc. I got mine at a hardware store...its supposed to be a
decorator item, and I lined it with clear epoxy to make it invisibly
watertight.
5. Lots of hotpad units. I'm planning on making mine out of wool scraps
(cheap up here), sewing lots of layers together, and leaving my modern ones
at home.
6. Recipies!!! Of course you'll only want to cook medieval food in your
medieval kitchen, right? :) Funny, most medieval recipeis lend themselves
well to cooking on an open fire, ie boil and serve, simmer and serve, fry
and serve. I am still attempting to figure out how to bake bread and pies
in my cast iron ware. I took a class and so just need to practice to get
the hang of it. at GWW we ate off the fire exclusively and ate like kings.
7. most importantly, either do away, or hide everything that's not
documentably authentic for the period. Put the coolers in a tent and only
bring stuff out after transferring to a medieval container like a wooden
bowl, or plate. Better yet, do away with the coolers altogether if you can
(Cariadoc and Elizabeth did an article on this for the TI not too long
ago). Throwing a piece of fabric over a cooler does not make it medieval
magically. Neither does painting Celtic knotwork on a propane stove. Sorry!
:)
anyway, good luck! maybe we can compare notes when I find source for more
of the toys I need.
- --Anne-Marie
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:26:49 -0000
From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk>
Subject: RE: SC - kitchen kits (long)
Hello from Caroline
I hope I can help - I've been cooking this way for the last 6 years in
living history in the UK (30 - 100 people, about half the weekends each
summer). I wanted to answer some of Anne-Maries points as well, so have
included her text.
First, Celestria, you are being very sensible, it will take a long time to
get everything together. How long probably depends on what suppliers you
can track down to make things for you, how much they charge and your
disposable income (I'm still working on it and feel I have quite a long way
to go)
> To cook "medievally" you need:
> 1. fire source. Much depends on your kingdom, and where you live. The
> oh-so-medieval ground fires are almost always verbotin here, so I'm
> commissioning a fire box type gizmo from a local guy with a forge. It will
> be the requisite foot off the ground, and fairly shallow.
[Yeldham, Caroline S] Its a pity, do try for ground fires if you
can (dig up the turves) - we don't have much of a problem here in the UK
even on archeological sites (some of them even have existing fireplaces!).
I presume Anne-Marie is referring to the risk of fire spreading in dry
conditions. If not possible, Anne-Marie's solution sounds reasonable.
> My reserach shows
> that food was cooked on charcoal more than fires (I even have a picture of
> cooks cooking on little black squares. Briquets! :)).
[Yeldham, Caroline S] ? I would say wood was much more common -
charcoal production was labour intensive and skilled job, and needed the
right sort of wood.
> I saw a neat gizmo
> at GWW of a blow pipe...a small bit of metal pipe with a cap with ahole in
> it. Blow on the fire to get it going. Neat! And just like the medieval
> copper smelters.
>
[Yeldham, Caroline S] Bellows would be more common
> 3. Pots. Medieval pots were copper, tin, ceramic, etc.
[Yeldham, Caroline S] Depends on period - but certainly for late
15th century bronze cooking pots were common, as were pottery ones.
> I am planning on
> making do with the more readily accessible cast iron. 18th century
> recreationists sutlery sells neat ones with feet that look just like the
> medieval ones, not the flatter modern Lodge cast iron style, and for about
> the same price. I also saw footed skillets and am attmepting to pin one of
> those down. Most cool! You'll need stirring things as well...skimmers and
> ladles and spoons and a fleshe forke if you want to get really authentic
> about it.
[Yeldham, Caroline S] You will need to track down suppliers for any
of these - I could give you references for the UK, but I assume that's not
much use. As for picture references - try Fast and Feast by Bridget Ann
Henicsh - lots of 14th century pictures of cooking, or for even better
pictures from the end of the 16th century, try and find some Scarpi pictures
(I think Cindy used them for her Take 1000 Eggs (?) - the Penguin version of
Elizabeth Davids' Italian cooking
has clear versions - look for the 'how to set up an outside
kitchen', also the different knives used. in period. We had copied the spit
arrangement he shows which works very well, and the trivet as well. He
shows a lovely cauldron stand with spit holders for small spits which I
rather covet. In the meantime we use large wooden tripods with a long
wooden bar in between to suspend the cauldrons (they stand 6' to 7' high)
> 5. Lots of hotpad units. I'm planning on making mine out of wool scraps
> (cheap up here), sewing lots of layers together, and leaving my modner
> ones
> at home.
[Yeldham, Caroline S] I use lengths of linen. Lots of cloth (linen
of different types) - to strain with, to bolt with, to mop up with, cover up
food (esp. when flies are about). Have a look at Terence Scully's work on
Chiquart - its amazing how much cloth he specifies.
[Yeldham, Caroline S] Trestle table(s), platters, bowls, jugs, pots
of all sizes, chopping boards, knives, spoons, sieves, basket ware, chests,
sacks. I never have enough things to put ingredients or dishes in the
process of being made, or finished dishes on, temporarily or for serving.
Caroline
Date: 20 Feb 1998 09:09:59 -0800
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen kits (long
I have a gizmo that I am rather proud of. For many years my husband had been
holding onto this funny half barrel "booze cabinet". It is about 1'x2' and
maybe a foot deep at the absolute center. It is meant to hang on the wall
from a chain across the back. It was starting to fall apart, and served no
real purpose.
He was about to throw it away when I realized it could be made useful. I tore
out the silly racks inside meant for glasses and bottles, cleaned it up,
re-set the hinges on the doors, laquered it with weather-proof finish, put in
some better shelves and bars, and put a hook in the top overhang.
Now I have a travelling kitchen cabinet! It has room for herbs, spices, teas,
bottles of vinegar, oil and honey, some pewter mugs, a small cutting board and
a couple of knives. I hang wooden spoons and fresh cut herbs from the hook,
so when it is open, the non-period things are not as obvious. And it hangs so
it can be put up out of the way and the weather. It isn't huge but is large
enough for my share of whatever household cooking gets done at weekend events.
I have seen similar half-barrel contraptions at flea-markets, just waiting for
make overs!
- -brid
From: Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:05:39 GMT
Gary Wolverton <route66 at ameritech.net> wrote:
> Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
"The answer" depends on when in time, where geographically, and the purpose.
That said, lead was common at various times in England as it was low cost,
easy to work, and could be readily reused. Copper and bronze were also both
used for larger vessels. These three metals were generally the preferred
metal for brewing kettles in England. German brewing tradition moved rapidly
to copper in the 14th century. Iron was a common material at some times, but
not used for brewing generally (I know you didn't ask about brewing in
specific, but it's a good example of use determining the materials).
Henry
From: Mark Shier <mark at medievalwares.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:31:15 -0800
Organization: Island Net on Vancouver Island B.C. Canada
Bronze cauldrons are sold by Rayne Foundry at
http://www.castings.demon.co.uk/
Excellent iron cauldrons are available from Jas. Townsend at
Iron cauldrons are a little too modern for me ( I do 14C), but they are
a lot more affordable.
Mark der Gaukler
From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: 26 Mar 1998 12:26:16 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
> Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
> If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
>might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?
Cast iron is a Renaissance "invention" for western europe. Previously
cast bronze/brass, (bell metal), (if you go this route make sure your
pot is *properly* *tinned* and check/re-tin it at regular intervals
mush like what is done with *up* scale copper cooking implements
even today!
Early period has left us examples of wrought iron pots both beaten
from a single sheet and assembled from several pieces, bronze pots
beaten from sheets and assembled, soapstone pots, clay pots.
If you are gung-ho I will gladly sell you some wrought iron plate
to take to your local blacksmith to make into a kettle; sane people
may settle for mild steel---just think of a pot as being a really
large and very dished knee-cop....(I usually point twords a smith since
working hot or annealing regularly helps a lot).
What time/place are you interested in? I may be able to provide a
cite to an example.
May I also commend to your attention "Iron and Brass Implements of
the English House" with has some dandy period examples---I love the
pot with the inscription "The wages of sin is death" cast into
the handle...
wilelm the smith
From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: 26 Mar 1998 14:38:10 -0500
>> Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
>> If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
>>might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?
Since you have already had the iron pot portion of your question
answered, you might take a look at ceramic pots as well. I'd try
_Medieval Catalogue_ London: London Museum, 1967, and
Mayes, Philip and Butler, Lawrence, _Sandal Castle Excavations, 1964-73_
Wakefield, W. Yorkshire: Wakefield historical publications, 1983.
I believe that both of these have examples of cooking pots (as well
as other really cool items of daily use). At the size you are
specifying, though, I'm not sure about pottery cauldrons even existed,
although to be honest I don't know either way.
As for *finding* anything close might be tricky, unless you want to
order something new -- and something of that size is going to be
pricy new. If you are very patient you can sometimes find them in
cast iron at flea markets and thrift stores.
Marc/Diarmuit
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
From: Andrew Tye <atye at efn.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:10:02 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Mark Shier wrote:
> Bronze cauldrons are sold by Rayne Foundry at
> http://www.castings.demon.co.uk/
>
> Excellent iron cauldrons are available from Jas. Townsend at
>
> Iron cauldrons are a little too modern for me ( I do 14C), but they are
> a lot more affordable.
Ivar here,
In addition, you might want to check with the Cumberland General Store.
The last catalogue I have from them has cast iron cauldrons in sizes
from 6 to 45 gallons and hand-hammered copper cauldrons from 10 to 40
gallons. They are NOT cheap however.
The last time I checked, the CGS did not have a web site. They can be
reached at:
Cumberland General Store
Route 3
Crossville, TN 38555 USA
(800) 334-4640 - orders
(615) 484-8481
Ivar Hakonarson
Adiantum, An Tir.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:51:21 -0800
From: Heather Senkler <wl835 at victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Gary Wolverton wrote:
> Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
> vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
> some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
> If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
> might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?
Having just returned from London I can tell you about two cooking vessels
I saw at the British Museum. The massive pot from Sutton Hoo is probably
not your style but the chain holding it up was incredibly detailed and
intricate. The other "pot" was a metal helm with holes on the edges to
hang it by.
Ekatarina
From: Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:05:15 GMT
LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson) wrote:
>>"lead was common at various times in England"
>
>Really? When? I am really curious about things like this.
>
>Marc/Diarmuit
>lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
As you know, the above quotation was in reference to the types of materials
employed in the fabrication of kettles - in addition to the assumed iron and
stoneware.
The term "lead" meant a kettle in addition to the metal itself in the 14th
century (c.f. OED). During the period 1350 to 1450, numerous estate
inventories and wills identified lead kettles as a significant item of real
property. In addition, there are references to lead lined cooling trays -
the lead was used to simplify cleaning and to make by-industrial cooling
vessels water (or beer) tight.
References to country house practices at the end of the 16th century include
mention of lead pipes used to move beer from one location to another during
brewing.
You can find references to 14th century leads in "Ale, Beer, and Brewsters
in England" by Bennett. Sanbrook's "Country House Brewing in England 1500
1900" details the continued use of lead in many country houses through the
17th century.
Although "lead" was used to mean a kettle in many documents from 1300-1600,
the term did not necessarily indicate that the lead was made of lead.
Indeed, the term became a corruption when referencing brewing (c.f. OED).
As indicated in an earlier post, lead was a favored metal because it was
easily worked and reclaimed. By comparison, copper and its alloys were less
easily worked (it work hardens and requires annealing) and generally were
reclaimed by reuse (c.f. Country House Brewing on the topic of building a
furnace).
Henry
From: Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:14:10 GMT
powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) wrote:
>> Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
>> If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
>>might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?
>
>Cast iron is a Renaissance "invention" for western europe. Previously
>cast bronze/brass, (bell metal), (if you go this route make sure your
>pot is *properly* *tinned* and check/re-tin it at regular intervals
>mush like what is done with *up* scale copper cooking implements
>even today!
Tinning is not always needed. For example, Many German and English breweries
continue to use untinned boiling coppers. The coppers are properly prepared
by cleaning so that the verdigris and similar copper compounds don't leach
into whatever is cooked in the pot. French chefs commonly use a copper bowl
for beating egg whites - without tinning.
As always - know and understand your food/vessel chemistry.
Henry
From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: 27 Mar 1998 22:37:19 -0500
<Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>>
>As you know, the above quotation was in reference to the types of materials
>employed in the fabrication of kettles - in addition to the assumed iron and
>stoneware.
You are right.
>The term "lead" meant a kettle in addition to the metal itself in the 14th
>century (c.f. OED). During the period 1350 to 1450, numerous estate
>inventories and wills identified lead kettles as a significant item of real
>property. In addition, there are references to lead lined cooling trays -
>the lead was used to simplify cleaning and to make by-industrial cooling
>vessels water (or beer) tight.
And here it is "A large pot or cauldron or kettle; a large open vessel used
in brewing and various other operations (originally one made of lead, but early
used without reference to the material). Hmm.
I did realize as I was looking at the picture of the lead "tanks" in this
quarter's _Antiquity_ (late Saxon era) that I'm not sure the original poster
made it clear what the use for the 10-20 gallon tub was. I don't know about
anyone else, but I assumed they were referring to *cooking*, which may not
be true at all.
Clearly, though, lead seems to have been popular with the brewing industry.
I have to wonder -- since lead pots are alleged to change the flavor of
vinager to a distinctive sweet flavor, what does it do to things brewed
in them?
(I saw the whole "white lead" versus "black lead" thing from 1567, as well
as the "leaden milk pan" definition)
Marc/Diarmuit
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:18:08 -0500 (EST)
From: william thomas powers <powers at cis.ohio-state.edu>
To: stefan at texas.net (Stefan li Rous)
> powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) wrote:
>
> > > Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
> > >vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
> > >some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
> > > If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
> > >might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?
> >
> > Cast iron is a Renaissance "invention" for western europe. Previously
> > cast bronze/brass, (bell metal), (if you go this route make sure your
> > pot is *properly* *tinned* and check/re-tin it at regular intervals
> > mush like what is done with *up* scale copper cooking implements
> > even today!
> >
> > Early period has left us examples of wrought iron pots both beaten
> > from a single sheet and assembled from several pieces, bronze pots
> > beaten from sheets and assembled, soapstone pots, clay pots.
> >
> > If you are gung-ho I will gladly sell you some wrought iron plate
> > to take to your local blacksmith to make into a kettle; sane people
> > may settle for mild steel---just think of a pot as being a really
> > large and very dished knee-cop....(I usually point twords a smith since
> > working hot or annealing regularly helps a lot).
> >
> > What time/place are you interested in? I may be able to provide a
> > cite to an example.
> >
> > May I also commend to your attention "Iron and Brass Implements of
> > the English House" with has some dandy period examples---I love the
> > pot with the inscription "The wages of sin is death" cast into
> > the handle...
> >
> > wilelm the smith
In haste pray foregive my terseness!!
> You still have some of that iron plate??? I thought you would have
> used it up or sold it off by now.
I have had little time at the forge this year, having pneumonia
las summer had a large impact on my schedules. I still
have considerable quantities of wrought iron.
> What form is it in? And how much do you want for it? Any idea what
> it will cost to ship it to Austin, Texas?
3/16" and 5/16" in plate. Check the UPS schedule for shipping costs.
> I'm still trying to get into some blacksmithing and from what you've
> said, this wrought iron plate is a better material for blacksmithing
> than the mild steels of today.
If you are trying to do authentic work it is *mandatory*; however it
does work differently from mild steel---some folk have trouble with it
mainly due to its need to be worked at high temperatures.
> Is it true that wrought iron is less susceptible to rust than steels?
It is less susceptable to damage by rust.
> Thanks for the other info. Do you have a more complete biblio. for
> this "Iron and Brass Implements..." book? Where did you locate
> yours?
"Iron and Brass Implements of the English House" J.Seymour Lindsay
First edition published in 1927 by the Medici Society, London
Revised and enlarged and republished by Alec Tiranti Ltd in 1964, London
I found my copy in a used bookstore in Fayetteville Arkansas in 1979.
(predates ISBN)
Thomas/Wilelm
From: Duane Brocious <dnb105 at psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cast Iron in Period?
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:38:33 -0500
Iryshrovrs wrote:
> As far as I know...cast iron itself isn't period..
Cast iron came into use with the double acting bellows (a Chinese
import) in Europe circa the 13th century, as did the use of forged iron
in S.E.Asia. It has been hypothesized that the exchange of
techniques/technology arose from the contact between Europe and Asia at
that time (see Marco Polo et al).
In any case, from 1300 on, cast iron is period in Europe.
Ferret
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:49:57 -0500
From: blues <blues at mail.ic.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
In addition to Jas. Townsend and Cumberland General Store, I would
recommend Lehamn's Non-Electric Hardware. They're on the web at
www.lehmans.com, but I'd recommend getting their printed catalog.
From: tanyaw at world.std.com (Tanya Washburn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cast Iron in Period?
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:04:40 -0500
iryshrovrs at aol.com (Iryshrovrs) wrote:
> As far as I know...cast iron itself isn't period...but it looks close enough.
> I use mine at events, because I don't know what else to use.
I've been researching this very thing! In France they used ceramic pots
for hearth cooking, until relatively modern times. They look like New
England Beanpots, with handles on the sides, and three small feet that
raise the pot above the coals an inch or so. They have a couple in the
Louvre in Paris that they excavated during the renovations a few years
ago. I believe that they were used elsewhere in Europe, with surviving
examples in England, and maybe
pictoral evidence in Germany. I am going to keep looking, and in the
meantime, try using my beanpot over a campfire to see how it goes!
Hope this was useful, and I wish I could be more specific in my citations!
Tanya
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:45:23 -0500
From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redeker at digital.com>
Subject: SC - I've been reading again
I bet you have been cursing my Mistress for ever giving me this book, but I
have been reading The Original Mediterranean Cuisine by Barbara Santich
again (lovely book lots of information for anyone who doesn't have it).
And, yet again I have a question.
Can anyone out there tell me where I may find an illustration of a Testo?
The book says, "There is a link here with Ancient Rome, where cakes had been
cooked in or under an earthenware testum, surrounded by hot coals. The
medieval testo, was an earthenware or metal dish with a concave lid that
held coals to provide heat from above." Then, "Italia torta recipes include
quite specific instructions on baking, and on the amount of heat needed
above and below."
Any information on these would be welcome and maybe I will make one to
experiment with.
Murkial
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:06:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Sabia <sabia at unm.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - I've been reading again
On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Christi Redeker wrote:
> Can anyone out there tell me where I may find an illustration of a Testo?
>
> The book says, "There is a link here with Ancient Rome, where cakes had been
> cooked in or under an earthenware testum, surrounded by hot coals. The
> medieval testo, was an earthenware or metal dish with a concave lid that
> held colas to provide heat from above." Then, "Italia torta recipes include
> quite specific instructions on baking, and on the amount of heat needed
> above and below."
Murkial there is an article in Food in Antiquity (edited by John wilkens,
David Harvey, & Mike Dobson) on the Clibanus and testum in ancient Rome
with descriptions and archaeological detailed sketches. They discuss some
of the materials used in assembly plus some of the breads made.
Sabia (sabia at unm.edu)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:17:52 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Chopsticks
In a message dated 4/7/98 7:33:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Christi.Redeker at digital.com writes:
<< Actually, what had happened is that the Autocrat had asked for a Far Eastern
feast so that she could offer chop sticks as site tokens. >>
Although I don't have the references handy, I recall reading somewhere that
chopsticks were a fad in Renassance Italy. Also a lady did a period cooking
class on Oriental medieval food at Pennsic a couple of years ago. Perhaps
someone on the list can provide her name and contact info?
Ras
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:14:57 -0400
From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)
Subject: SC - Stoves and ovens
So, what we need is the earliest documentation any of us can find for
!) pot au feu 2) cooking with stoves. What do people have?
>Regards,
>Lady Allison
From"Old Cooking Utensils" by David J. Eveleigh, Shire Publications, UK
"Boiling was the simplest and most widely practised method of
cooking. Large boiling vessels, described variously as crocks,
cauldrons, kettles, boilers and furnaces constitute the most widely found
cooking utensils prior to 1800. They were used at every social level but
amongst the poor especially were regularly employed to prepare an entire
meal. Meat was placed in a pot of boiling water, followed later with
vegetables and a pudding which were wrapped in cloths and nets. .....
...............Despite the variety of names, there were basically just
two types of boiling vessel; the *cauldron* and the *kettle*. Both had a
long ancestry. Metal cauldrons were first used in Britain about 1000 BC
during the late bronze age, and kettles originated in the Anglo-Saxon
*cytel*. Cauldrons were round bellied and round bottomed, and by the
middle ages were being made with three legs which gave them stability and
enabled them to stand in the fire. They were also provided with two
'ears' close to the rim by which they could be suspended over the hearth.
Cauldrons were always made of cast metal, unlike kettles which were made
from sheet metal, usually brass, hammered by hand to form a straighter
sided, open-top vessel. ......
Most cauldrons recorded in sixteenth and seventeenth century
inventories were cast in a metal commonly described by contemporaries as
"crock brass" or "bell metal". This was an alloy of copper and tin,
similar to bronze, although usually containing quantities of lead and
zinc. There are few inventories that list cauldrons made of iron, but
these were rare. Although cast iron was cheap it was of poor quality
until... 1709...
...........Stewing required a gentle even heat and for this a
separate brick stove burning charcoal was often used in preference to the
main kitchen grate until the developement in the nineteenth century of
kitchen ranges enclosed on top with a hot plate. ...
...........Originally ovens were associated exclusively with baking.
From the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries most substantial homes in
the countryside were built with a wall oven which generally consisted of
a circular domed cavity reached by a small rectangular opening; from
their shape they are sometimes described as 'beehive ovens'. Faggots
were burned inside the oven to heat the masonry or brick lining, then the
embers were carefully spread around the floor to ensure it was heated
evenly before being raked out. ... In Cornwall, northern
England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland the three-legged cauldron was
inverted over the item to be baked and hot embers piled up around the
outside. ...
Mistress Christianna MacGrain, OP, Meridies
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:37 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Stoves and ovens
Mistress Christianna,
Thanks for your references to stoves and ovens. I haven't read that one.
Have been looking at
Hagen, Ann. A Handbook of Anglo-Saxon Food, Processing and Consumption.
Anglo-Saxon Books, Middlesex, UK, 1992. Hagen, Ann. A HANDBOOK OF
ANGLO-SAXON FOOD. Processing and Consumption. Anglo-Saxon Books,
Nisslwawx, England. 1992.
She says the same thing about cauldrons and kettles. She also adds
eathenware: " Upright pierced lugs on the rims of bowls and horizontal
pierced lugs on the shoulders of some of the smaller pots indicate these
were for suspension over a fire, and therefore for cooking.. ...Good
quality pots which were more heat-resistent were imported from
widely-spaced centres across northern Belgium and France and Germany into
such ports as Hamwih." p. 37.
She also mentions cooking in leather vessels, which were made by the
shoemaker; griddles, hot stones to serve as griddles, spits, a shallow
pan for frying. Meat was baked, as well as bread. The most common
method, for most people, was the on-going stew in one cauldron. Carrots
are one of the vegetables that appear as used in Anglo-Saxon times, also
parsnips and skirrets. Herbs, barley, onions are also linked with stews.
If the peasant has one pot, and his meat and broth are in it, and he
cooks other things as well, it says 'stew' to me. Exact and specific
recipes are terrific to have, but I really don't think you can say they
didn't do stew as we know stew (minus the potatoes) because we don't have
a recipe. Judgement call, I know.
Lady Allison
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:53:17 -0500
From: a14h at zebra.net (William Seibert)
Subject: Re: SC - Mulling recipes
If it helps, I seem to recall seeing in a museum somewhere what
was called a mulling iron. Was an iron cylender about 2 or 3
inches in diameter about 3 or 4 inches long, with a long, slender
iron handle about half inch in diameter with wooden hand grip.
Apparently the thing was kept in the fire, and then dipped in a
mug of wine or whatever immediately prior to serving. Don't
recall what period it was tho, sorry.
Wajdi
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 07:58:32 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: seeking recipes (Outdoor Feast)
Anne-Marie wrote,
> I certainly
>havent seen any flat lidded pots in the Museum collections, primary sources
>and other stuff I've been looking at. Again, I'd love to be proven wrong,
>but all the pots I've seen are the cauldron shape, with nicely domed lids
>(tricky to stack coals on) and a round bottom (tricky to control the heat
>on underneath).
This has bothered me for a while because some of the German sources
recommend placing hot coals both underneath and on top of the pot while it
cooks. Instead of doing all of the cooking in the fireplace, kitchens in
German-speaking Europe had a hearth raised about waist high where cooking
was done in pans placed on tripods or in pots or pans with three feet.
Coals could be added or removed from underneath to adjust the heat.
But most of the woodcuts show people cooking with uncovered pots and pans.
There are a few picture that look like the lids might be flat with handles,
rather than domed, but they never show coals on top. The pans and some of
the pots are flat bottomed with staight sides, not cauldron-shaped. There
are round bottomed cooking containers in both metal and clay, but they
aren't the only shape.
Recently I got a copy of Hofrichter and Grassnick's Deutsche historiche
Buergerhaeuser (German historical city houses) that shows the Albrecht
Durer's restored kitchen in Nuremberg. Great picture of the kitchen with a
metal pot on the hearth with a flat lid - no handle on the top. This could
easily have had coals placed on top as rcommended in the 16th recipes. No
rim around the edge, like a dutch oven, though.
Valoise
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:13:07 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: SC - Re: pot pictures
One of my German cookbooks is illustrated with woodcuts Mostly, they are
16thC, but some as early as 1502. One of the pot lids is a little like a
hat, in that there is a raised 'crown', slightly indented, and the 'brim'
is curved as much as a ring mold. The only use I can see would be to
hold the coals. There are a number of legged items. There are also pots
without domed lids, but I bet they turned the domed ones over, as was
suggested.
I don't know whether this book ever appeared in English translation. If
you'd rather try to find it through InterLibrary Loan, here is the info:
(and if you do find it in English, would you let me know, please)
Fahrenkamp, H. Jurgen. Wie man eyn teutsches Mannsbild bey Krafften
halt. (in German). Prisma Verlag. Munchen or Gutersloh, 1986. ISBN 3
570 09730 7
Allison
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:50:13 -0400
From: Bonne <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: seeking recipes (Outdoor Feast)
> Recently I got a copy of Hofrichter and Grassnick's Deutsche historiche
> Buergerhaeuser (German historical city houses) that shows the Albrecht
> Durer's restored kitchen in Nuremberg. Great picture of the kitchen with a
> metal pot on the hearth with a flat lid - no handle on the top. This could
> easily have had coals placed on top as rcommended in the 16th recipes. No
> rim around the edge, like a dutch oven, though.
>
> Valoise
Might these "Deutsch" cooking pots be the precursor to what we call "dutch"
ovens? The idea of the rim and handy loop handle and handle jack coming later?
Sounds like the german cooks were leaps ahead of the rest, how clever to
raise the hearth up so the cook could stand to work instead of bending.
To the person using a griddle and metal pan to imitate a baking cloche, King
Arthur Flour Co catalog has a smallish cloche that fits on a baking stone.
Williams Sonoma sells these also. They are small enough to fit in a regular
oven, you might be trying to make something larger. So, brainstorming for
cheaper and bigger, I come up with:
a very large terra cotta pot instead of the metal bowl on top,
on the bottom, placing coals in a shallow terra cotta dish slightly smaller in
diameter than the metal griddle, and deep enough that the rim of the dish
keeps the griddle from direct contact with the coals. The shallow dish sitting
amoungst more coals.
Bonne
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:02:27 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: medieval cooking setup
>Hi all from Anne-Marie
<snip>
>This means that we're looking really closely and hard at all kinds of
>things, both manuscript illuminations and at the museum catelogs and
>inventories (I sooooooo hope that Museum of London book on kitchen stuff
>comes out!).
<snip>
Hello! please check out http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food.html , where Greg
& I have posted numerous illustrations of kitchen utensils, etc.
Cindy Renfrow
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:29:17 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - tripods, and the like.
Hiya from Anne-Marie
Bogdan asks:
> I know that I have read through some old discussions on tripods (and I am
> sure Stefan will refer me to a file), but I have an offer for a free
> tripod, made to my specifications, and I would love some advice. Ideally,
> if you know of period pictures of tripods I would appreciate it. I saw
> the one in Take a thousand eggs or more, and it looks tempting with all of
> the hooks running down the legs, but I don't want to limit myself. I
> figure if my brother wants to do some smithing work for me as a trial of
> his new forge, who am I to turn him down???
The reading I've been doing for 14-15th century Europe says they used those
cool hooky things, but they aren't tripods, they're "dipods" :), ie a set
up like a modern swing set. They also got setups where a metal bit (or
wood?) is stuck into the ground on each side and a cross piece is suspended
between them over the fire to hang the pots from.
Neither of these is the standard SCA-blackpowder group tripod gizmo. Still
havent seen an appropriate one of those in the primary source material.
- --AM
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:59:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: SC - tripods, and the like.
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, William Seibert wrote:
> I recall seeing, somewhere on the web, in a list of Viking grave
> goods, a cooking tripod. Unfortunately, I can't recall where it
> was I found it. But, it WAS there. Hope that helps narrow down
> the search for documentation on the tripod for cooking questions
> a tad.
Oseberg, IIRC. It was fairly low, made from wrought iron, and had a
large pot (lamellar iron).
/UlfR
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:33:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Charles McCathieNevile <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Sealing a Cauldron
I made a cauldron myself from mild steel, and used the porridge method to
seal it - for the first few feasts it needed to have the water constantly
topped up, but now it is perfect.
I recall a long and technical discussion on the OldNorseNet about what
was and wasn't 'wrought iron'. So if it is something that can be welded
at red heat it would e a nice thing to be able to use. My cauldron was in
fact worked cold. Ockham's razor (not always a good historical test)
would suggest that the porridge method would be a lot easier than going
to the extra trouble of working inside a red-hot object, which is
actually quite difficult. THe first time I made one I bent all the pieces
into shape, and then rivetted it, which was very difficult. The second
time I rivetted the centres together (I did not have bottom pieces), then
bent and rivetted as I went, which made life _MUCH_ simpler.
Charles Ragnar
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 00:30:49 -0500
From: Dottie Elliott <difirenze at usa.net>
Subject: Re: SC - feastware question
>I just got through looking at a site that has beautiful late anglo-saxon
>reproduction pottery on it.
If this is a web site, I would love to see the address.
As someone who has been studying medieval pottery (and learning to make
pottery) for a while now I will try to answer this. First of all, our
knowledge of the middle ages is based on what archeologist have found,
and drawings, paintings and writings or the period. Its my opinon that
its impossible to tell from an illuminated manuscript or painting whether
an item is metal, pottery or wood. Plates in England aren't found until
the late fifteen hundreds and those were square and made of wood. Now,
they did have silver plates before that. It was an ostentatious show of
wealth and was used as such. Often such plates (and even the more
beautiful pottery) was displayed during feasts rather than used as
another show of wealth (you have so much you don't need to use it all).
Most of the pottery that survives from England are pots, jugs, pitchers,
pans and later cups, bowls and so on. Pottery in England in the 10th &
11th centuries was mostly rather simple (well compared to Italy). It was
crudely made and decorated possibly not all. Pottery was mostly very
functional. Cups of the time are mostly wood (bowls) or metal. Things got
better as time went on. I have read that the pottery industry in England
collapsed when Rome withdrew and that explains why their pottery was crude
early on. Certainly, it was not nearly as finished looking nor as highly
decorated as Italy's pottery.
Also, let me say that of the cups, bowls and plates I am making, plates
are the hardest. You must be careful to leave enough clay for the bottom
to be able to use the item but if you leave too much it will warp on
drying and be too heavy. My teacher agress that they are one of the
harder items to make.
Its my personal opinion that poorer folks used simple wood bowls in their
own homes because they would have been eating bread (not using it as a
plate and throwing/giving it away). This was something they could make
themselves as well. Wood doesn't break as easily as pottery either.
Please also remember that at feasts folks shared food containers. How
many people you might share with depended on your social rank. The type
of bread and amount and type of food was dictated by this as well. The
trencher was a place to put your portion that you removed from a communal
bowl. There is a whole realm of ettiquette on how to share food (like its
bad manners to eat the trencher), share cups, etc. Its my opinion that
when serving large groups of people, bread trenchers were the only way to
give that many folks their own 'plate'.
I started learning about pottery with the single intent of making period
looking items for displaying my food in A&S contests. I was sadly
disappointed to find that for England and France, bread trenchers are
what I must use. For Italy, at least, I can do plates & bowls.
Clarissa
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:36:33 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: LIST SCA arts <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Cast Iron cookware/cheese making etc
I was sent this might be of interest ?
As for cast iron cookery, if you haven't discovered
Lehman's yet, it is a wonderful resource for non-
electric cooking items. It is an Amish/Mennonite
company in Ohio that carries everything you could
possibly need cast-iron wise. Also, Cheese-making,
butter churning, buggy-repairing, etc. These aren't antiques,
but new items. I understand they're having a blow-out
year due to the whole Y2K anxiety and are back ordered
on all their wood burning stoves, fireplaces, canning
jars, etc. They can't be *that* Amish, though, since they
have a web page. From that, you can order their catalog
which I highly recommend. It's large and filled with all sorts
of old-fashioned stuff that's hard to find anywhere else.
Mel
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:09:44 -0700
From: Curtis & Mary <ladymari at cybertrails.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Whisks
> Does anyone out there know if whisks had been invented by the mid
> sixteenth century? I am getting ready to make egg tempera paints and I
> know that it is vital to whip the white very well (a spoon will not do).
I beleive they used a twig or stick with the end split multiple times to
make a whisk.
Mairi, Atenveldt
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:04:27 EST
From: Gerekr at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Cookout at Egils
>From: stefan at texas.net (Stefan li Rous)
>Meistari Gerekr mentioned:
>> Ravensgard will be providing a variety of equipment including
>> cauldrons of various sizes, footed pots, tripod, brazier, portable
>> hearth, spit, norse frying pans, Dutch ovens, etc. We may have a pit
>> fire also.
>
>Wish I was close enough to see this. I few questions if you don't mind:
>1) What is this portable hearth? I can imagine a big pile of rocks or
> bricks, but I that wouldn't be very portable.
>2) How does a norse frying pan differ from any other frying pan? Was
> it really used by the Norse? I was thinking Viking. Maybe you just
> mean by modern Norse?
1) Portable hearth - like Bear is building in his back-yard, eh? A
bread/bake oven of bricks, finished with plaster or something... on a
trailer/wagon/cart or some such; the
build-the-fire-inside,-scrape-it-out-after-the-oven-is-heated type... I
also have the file somewhere from the gentle in the West who's been
researching this... subject came up here last summer, and earlier, I
think.
2) Norse frying pan. No, I mean period-- my husband dislikes the term
"viking" with its horned-helmed-drunk connotations, so we use "Norse" for
almost everything.
About 5 have been excavated, that we know of. Color photo p. 142,
catalog entry #63 in _From Viking to Crusader_ - with measurements.
Drawings in Treckare (shudder), p. 180. References in Roesdahl's _Viking
Denmark_.
Gerek used the dimensions from the one in Viking/Crusader, says it's the
most complete, and simplest one he's seen. Handle 36", 1/2" square
stock. "Pan" is an 11" circle of about 16 g. mild steel (educated guess,
from what we can tell about the excavated ones; also the heaviest gauge
our Beverly shear will cut); the edge is dished up about 1/4". Connected
to the handle with a central rivet. We don't know if the pan was
supposed to rotate around the rivet, ours mostly does't, and G says based
on the size of the rivet-head on the excavated ones, probably not.
We've cooked bacon, sausages and pancakes over a fire in camp, with very
good results.
3) We'll see how it goes, maybe post pics after the fact next summer,
8-). If we do, will notify the list.
Chimene & Gerek
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:52:23 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Pipkins are?
> There seems to be no translation of the word 'Pipkin'. Is it a young
>rabbit ( an alternative, like the word 'coney'); is it a specific stewing
>pot; or might it be an apple, as in a Pipkin (variety)? Anyone happen to
>know this one?
It refers to the pot. A pipkin was a smallish stewing pot, either metal or
earthenware.
Nanna
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:55:37 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Pipkins are?
><< It refers to the pot. A pipkin was a smallish stewing pot, either metal or
> earthenware.
>
> Nanna >>
>
>Interesting. I wonder if these pots were originally used to stew apples or if
>the apples took their name from the pot. Does anuone know?
>
>Ras
I agree with Nanna that it (probaby) refers to the pot. A pipkin is a
roundish, usually pottery, pot, often with three legs to steady it over
the fire and a short, thick handle. I would guess that because it is
round in shape, it could _look_ like an apple. Didn't we determine
lately that everything that's round was called an apple of some sort?
I would think the pipkin name transferred from the pot to the fruit at
some point.
-----wade/Gille
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:51:03 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Pipkins are?
> Interesting. I wonder if these pots were originally used to stew apples or if
> the apples took their name from the pot. Does anuone know?
>
> Ras
A possible derivation is from pipe which describes a cask (or more
generically, a container) holding 126 gallons. A pipkin (pip(e) - kin)
would be a container smaller than a pipe.
Bear
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:32:09 -0000
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject: SC - Toasting salamander.
Speaking of toasting, I got to see an interesting piece of kitchen equipment
in action on TV this weekend. The BBC did a docu on Hampton Court Palace,
including a brief piece showing re-enactors in the kitchen. They showed a
'salamander', basically a flat iron disk with a very long handle, which was
shoved in the coals to heat up, and then used mostly to heat cheese on top
of bread. A medieval toastie maker the housekeeper said (erm, yes, well...).
I'm not sure how accurate this is, as I didn't agree with some of the other
stuff they said about food of the time. Has anyone seen pictures of this
equipment in use?
Lucretzia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:53:18 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Toasting salamander.
Christina Nevin wrote:
> Speaking of toasting, I got to see an interesting piece of kitchen equipment
> in action on TV this weekend. The BBC did a docu on Hampton Court Palace,
> including a brief piece showing re-enactors in the kitchen. They showed a
> 'salamander', basically a flat iron disk with a very long handle, which was
> shoved in the coals to heat up, and then used mostly to heat cheese on top
> of bread. A medieval toastie maker the housekeeper said (erm, yes, well...).
> I'm not sure how accurate this is, as I didn't agree with some of the other
> stuff they said about food of the time. Has anyone seen pictures of this
> equipment in use?
Not in use, no, but I seem to recall seeing recipes for things like
Cambridge Burnt Cream (a.k.a. Creme Brulee) which describe getting the
salsmander red hot and holding it close to the surface of the sugared
cream, and moving it around a bit to get an even brown.
This all has to do with the fact that it was impossible, until the
advent of gas ovens with broilers, to get radiant heat directly on _top_
of foods (with possible exceptions like tandoor ovens), without a
heat-transferring "middleman" like the red-hot salamander.
As for toasted cheese being made with a salamander, I believe this