fish-msg - 1/17/08
Medieval fish dishes. Fish in the SCA. Recipes. Medieval fried fish. Whale and porpoise.
NOTE: See also the files: seafood-msg, salt-msg, salt-comm-art, stockfish-msg, drying-foods-msg, pickled-foods-msg, fish-pies-msg, frogs-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:11:51 -0400
Subject: Re: sca-cooks fish
A couple of cooks, Michael F. Gunter included, wrote:
> > I'd like to try some medieval fish recipes and this sounds good.
> >
> I was planning on making waffres at Coronation but they got changed to
> something else in the planning process. Waffres are basically a tuna or
> salmon mousse in pastry. I'm hoping to do them at my dream "small intimate
> feast of 200.
>
> > Unfortunately, since I am in Ansteorra I am unlikely to ever get fish at
> > a feast. (meat is good. vegatables are what meat eats. fish is just
> > another vegatable. etc.)
>
> I'm hoping to do some fish dishes in the future, but it's just so expensive!
>
> > Anyone have any good recipes using salted fish? I've never had any and
> > since that was a staple in parts of medieval europe, I'd like to try
> > some.
>
> Once again something that was going into Coronation but was cut because my
> source of salt cod was going for $8 a pound!
>
> > Stefan li Rous
>
> Gunthar
How recently was the price of $8/lb quoted? It wouldn't have been right
before Easter, would it? You might consider checking it again. Also, for
what it's worth, a pound of salt cod, soaked to desalt, weighs in at
around two and a quarter pounds before cooking.
Adamantius, whose Province includes the Fulton Fish Market.
From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:13:17 -0400
Subject: Re: sca-cooks fish
Angelina Capozello wrote:
> Hmmm, here's a question, what did medieval fisherman and sailors eat? We
> all know the later centuries of British naval fare (biscuit, salt beef or
> pork, peas, grog, etc.) Our Canton of Ivyeinrust is holding a sea
> collegium in the near future, and I'd like to help with the cooking.
> Any recipes for salt fish, etc., or sources where I can find recipes would
> be greatly appreciated!
>
> Rafaela di Napoli
It seems likely that sailors would eat such fish as they either couldn't
sell or wouldn't keep well without extensive preparation. So, until
fairly recently, on the Mediterranean coast, sailors ate things like
bouilliabaise, traditionally made from a variety of fish, some rather
bony and/or fatty. The dish appears to be far older than the
comparatively recent addition of tomatoes might suggest. The rest of the
ingredients sound to me like a pretty classic medieval fish pottage:
olive oil, leeks, fennel, wine, oranges, mixed fish and saffron, served
on sops of toast.
Adamantius
From: Aldyth at aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:26:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks fish
In a message dated 97-04-15 03:01:06 EDT, Clarissa writes:
<< 1) lots of folks don't like fish - at least at all the events in
Ansteorra and the East and Atlantia where I have seen fish served it has
been the least eaten dish at the event.
2) bones!
3) I don't much like fish
I do like shellfish but the folks I know with shellfish allergies are
violently allergic (even the smell can get 'em) so I have never cooked it
for a feast. >>
Aldyth here.
I have been to MANY feasts where fish was served. I said served, not eaten.
I will cook fish for feasts, and have. When trout is donated for our
Hunters Feast each winter, it is cooked and almost all eaten. I recall
another feast which featured seafood (Spanish, I believe) and one course was
whole mackerel. I think the problem I found with the mackerel might be the
problem with fish in general. They were cooked whole (as per the recipe) and
served "naked." Most sea dwelling fish have a dark fat vein that if not
removed makes them "fishy" tasting. I have no doubt that our esteemed
ancestors thought that fish was supposed to taste that way. Our modern
palates have evolved, and unless we have prefer that fishy taste, we seem to
stay away from it. How many of us would really use liquamen as the Romans
did, on toast, and in every dish they made..(almost). Freshwater fish don't
taste as fishy when prepared, but you still have to think about that fat vein
in most of them.
I also don't usually do fish (unless specifically asked) for a feast because
of the expense involved. Wyoming is expensive to have fresh fish trucked
into. I have a supplier for hake, but at $5 a pound it is prohibitive.
Mistress Aldyth
Aldyth at aol.com
From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 01:57:03 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - fried fish and other foods
Mark Harris wrote:
> I'm assuming you are talking about coating the fish in flour or batter
> and frying it in grease or oil. (like British fish and chips?)
>
> So, my question for anyone is, Is such fried food period? I'm wondering
> about other meats too, not just fish. I thought fried chicken was from
> the American South but I'm not sure.
There are late-period recipes for frying chicken, but it doesn't seem
like crisp was what was being aimed for. It seems to be more of a situation where the the chicken is browned in a frying-pan, and thesauce ingredients are adeded to finish cooking. By modern standards it is really braised.
In answer to the inevitable next question, I am only awake at this hour because my wife was having a computer problem, and may be able to find the original source in the morning.
> If so, what was the cooking medium in period? Olive oil? lard? fish oil?
> Did they use breading or just cook it in the oil?
Seems as though the commonest method would be to fry with no coating at all, using olive oil or "whyte grees": effectively lard or rendered suet. Taillevent mentions frying certain fish dishes with no coating of flour, presumably he wouldn't mention this unless the habit existed. The recipe for cuminade de poissons in Le Menagier de Paris calls for the fish to be fried before adding it to the sauce...that I have a redaction for already on disk, which I will post in the a.m. if anyone wishes.
> Stefan li Rous
Hot cha cha,
Adamantius
From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:44:14 -0400
Subject: SC - Fish recipe, Was "Fried Foods"
Uduido at aol.com wrote:
> Please do post the recipe! :-) You are right on the button about not coating
> the fish with flour or whatever. So far as chicken is concerned, if you fry
> it slowly with the SKIN attached it developes a nice crusty exterior without
> the addition of extraneous material. The main secret to frying without a
> coating is to constantly monitor the fat's temperature and make sure that it
> does not rise to a level where the food is dessicated or burned before the
> interior is cooked.
> Lord Ras
Okay, here's my redaction for Le Menagier's cuminade de poisson. You'll
notice that it allows for the fish to be baked rather than fried. That
is only because I was originally serving 400 with this recipe, before I
cut it down. It was served at East Kingdom Twelfth Night, A.S. XXIX.
Enjoy!
Adamantius
_______________________________________________________________________
Cuminade of Fish
Poultry flavoured with cumin. Cut it into pieces and put it to cook in
a little wine, then fry it in fat; then take a little bread dipped in
your broth and take first ginger and cumin, moisten them with verjuice,
bray and strain and put all together with meat or chicken broth, and
then color it either with saffron or with eggs or yolks run through a
strainer and dropped slowly into the pottage, after it is taken off the
fire. Item, best it is to make it with milk as aforesaid and then to
bray your bread after your spices, but behoveth it to boil the milk
first lest it burn, and after the pottage is finished let the milk be
put into wine (meseemeth this is not needful) and fry it. Many there be
that fry it not, nathless it tastes best so.
(Bread is the thickening and afterwards he saith eggs, which is
another thickening, and one should suffice, as is said in the chapter
concerning the creton'. Verjuice and wine.--If you would make your
pottage with milk behoveth not to use wine or verjuice.)
"Commine" for a fish day. Fry your fish, then peel almonds and bray
them and dilute with pure' or fish broth and make milk of almonds; but
cow's milk is more appetising, though not so healthy for the sick; and
for the rest do as above. Item, on a meat day, if you cannot have cow's
milk, you may make the dish of milk of almonds and meat as above.=94
Le Menagier de Paris, trans. Eileen Power; Harcourt, Brace New York
1928
I envision this dish as something like fish fillets in an almond -
curry flavored cream sauce. Almond milk made with cream or half-and-half is appropriate for a fish-day, and eliminates the need for any additional thickener. Since neither Le Menagier nor his source, Taillevent, mentions a garnish of any kind, I've decided to cheat and top the whole shebang with fried
onions; both a consistently appropriate medieval garnish for pale pottages, and a way to introduce a flavor I feel will improve the dish. The dish is intended as a spoon-food, so the fish should be either in chunks or soft enough to break up easily.
For eight servings:
2 pounds white, lean ("non-fishy") fillets or steaks, such as cod, bass,
monkfish, etc.
oil, butter, lard, or bacon fat
1/4 pound finely ground blanched almonds (1 cup)
1 pint half and half
1 small onion, finely grated or pureed (capricious and unnecessary but good)
1-inch chunk ginger root, grated or 1 1/2 tsp ground ginger
3-4 Tbs ground cumin seed
1 pinch saffron,
salt and pepper
Season the fish with salt and pepper and either saute or bake at 400 degrees F in a greased pan. Vegetable oil is best for this. Cook for about eight
minutes per inch of thickness of your fish, til fish is barely opaque
inside and flaky. Keep the fish warm.
Meanwhile, cook the onion and ginger over low heat in a saucepan, with
a little more oil. When they are soft and aromatic, but no longer
volatile (you'll know it when you see it), add cumin and saffron. Do not
brown. Add half and half and mix thoroughly. Raise heat a bit and bring
it to a boil. Beat with a whip and add the almonds in a steady stream.
Bring back to a boil, stirring frequently. Season to taste with salt and
pepper, and add more cumin if you feel like it. You can blenderize
and/or strain the sauce if you want it smoother and/or thinner. Pour it
over the fish and mess it forth.
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:07:20 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - fried fish and other foods
Hi, Katerine here. Stefan asked about fried fish in period. I don't pay
as much attention to fish recipes as I do to others, so I can't speak
offhand with authority to what English recipes _did't_ do, I am fairly
certain the medieval corpus includes recipes for fish fried on a skillet (
unbreaded) using (but not precisely in) olive oil.
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:10:06 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - fried fish and other foods
Hi, Katerine here. Adamantius writes:
>Seems as though the commonest method would be to fry with no coating at
>all, using olive oil or "whyte grees": effectively lard or rendered
>suet. Taillevent mentions frying certain fish dishes with no coating of
>flour, presumably he wouldn't mention this unless the habit existed.
Are you certain that either lard or suet was ever used? I ask, because
all records show virtually no consumption of fish outside of days of
abstinence, when both lard and suet would be forbidden.
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:21:20 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - fried fish and other foods
Ron Martino Jr wrote:
> Batter coated deep frying, agemono (tempura, etc.), was introduced to
> Nippon by Europeans in the 16th century, and the Japanese took the idea
> and made it their own, as they do with many things. I don't know any
> details, though, such as what the Portuguese were frying, what was used
> for the batter, or what oils were used.
There are various Iberian versions of the shrimp fritter that still
exist today, made from little brown shrimp too small to be individually
peeled and deveined. Kind of like whitebait pancake in Britain. The fish
being too small to individually batter and fry, you just mix them into a
batter and fry it as a cake. That may well be what the Portuguese
version of Tempura would have looked like. By the way, the word
"tempura" seems to be a variant on a Latin term, and not a Japanese word
at all. It may well be a corruption of "tempora" as referring to the
time of Lent, or possibly that it is fried for a certain time, and no
more. I don't have the information in front of me or I would tell you
more.
Adamantius
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:30:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #75
I have to contribute a favorite tale of a traditional wierd fish dish:
Stargazy Pie, made with a regular double pie crust, whole fresh Sardines,
Gammon, and Saffrom Milk. The heads of the fish are left to poke out of the
crust, staring upwards (thus "Stargazy").
Classify it under *Things that make ya go HMMM?* Top that, whydoncha!
Aoife
From: "Karen Farris" <farrisk at macom.com>
Date: Fri, 09 May 97 08:57:37 EDT
Subject: SC - Fried Whiting
I found a set of thin English Heritage books on a recent trip to the
motherland. This one is from 'Food and Cooking in 16th Century
Britain: History and Recipes' by Peter Brears. He cites the source
as 'The Boke of Cokery' by Richard Pynson with Temple Bar London 1500.
He furthermore states the only known copy of this work is in the
collection of the Marquis of Bath, Longleat House.
I hope this helps the battered fish debate and am glad to be able to
lay my hands on them after recently moving to Dragonspine. For .95p
each I couldnt go wrong with the purchase, but am curious to know if
there are any errors with his redaction.
Lillian Clare du Chateauroux
To fry Whitings: First flay them and wash them clean and seale them,
that doon, lap them in floure and fry them in Butter and oyle. Then
to serve them, mince apples or onions and fry them, then put them into
a vessel with white wine, vergious, salt, pepper, clove and mace, and
boile them together on the Coles, and serve it upon the Whitings.
Brears redacts the recipe thusly,
8 oz apples or onions, minced
butter or oil for frying
1/2 pt white wine
1 tbls wine vinegar
1 tsp salt
1/4 tsp pepper
1/4 tsp ground mace
a pinch of ground cloves
1-1 1/2 lb whiting fillets
Fry the apples or onions in a little butter or oil in a small sauce
pan until thoroughly cooked, but not browned. Stir in the wine,
vinegar, salt, pepper, and spices. Allow to cook for a few minutes,
then keep hot ready for use. Remove any skin from the fillets, dust
them with flour, fry in butter or oil for 15 minutes and serve with
sauce.
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 17:22:01 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Fried Whiting
Terry Nutter wrote:
> Hmmmm. I know when Pynson was -- he was a printer, not a cook -- and the
> language of the recipe is suspiciously modern. I suspect it's been updated.
> That said: Pynson set _Noble Boke off Cookry_ in print; the only surviving
> copy of the Pynson printing is, you guessed it, in the Longleat collection.
> I suspect this may be it. There is no recipe in the manuscript version (or I
> should say, in the appalling Napier edition thereof) with "whitings" in
> the title. But the title may have been modernized with the recipe. Perhaps
> someone who knows fish better than I can suggest a medieval equivalent? If
> so, I can look up quickly and find out whether this is indeed an NBoC recipe,
> and if so, provide the NBoC-via-Napier version, which may tell us something.
Yes, it does sound a bit idiomatic of modern speech, doesn't it?
The recipe for mortrews of fish in Utilis Coquinario calls for, among
others, merlyng. This is probably a cognate of merlin, which is still a
French term for whiting. Also, whiting being a rather bland, soft fish,
it is perfect for mortrews (or as perfect as any fish can be for
mortrews).
Taillevent uses the term "merluz" for a similar, though slightly larger
fish.
The whiting known in England is the Northern Whiting, a cousin of the
various hakes, which are in turn related to cod. They are distinguished
by relatively large pectoral fins like wings, small scales, and a weird
cartilage rib-cage, like a box, in an otherwise ordinary bony-fish
skeleton. They get up to about two or three pounds these days, which
indicates nothing about what they may have weighed in period.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:04:54 -700 MST
From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks fish
> Stefan,
> I don't cook fish for events for a variety of reasons:
>
> 1) lots of folks don't like fish - at least at all the events in
> Ansteorra and the East and Atlantia where I have seen fish served it
> has been the least eaten dish at the event. 2) bones! 3) I don't
> much like fish
>
> I do like shellfish but the folks I know with shellfish allergies
> are violently allergic (even the smell can get 'em) so I have never
> cooked it for a feast.
>
> Clarissa
***WARNING*** Non-redacted-from-period-source but doable at SCA feast
fish-recipe-that-even-fighters-will-eat about to follow:
Fish rarely gets served at SCA feast, and I can understand why;
Clarissa admirably summed up the reasons above.
HOWEVER: I do have a signature dish that feasters scrape the pans on
and I've had fighters ask me for the recipe. At a Coronet feast in
Oertha, all of it was consumed and there were leftovers on the Boeuf
Bourguignonne.
HALIBUT BERENGARIA
For every "panful" (rectangular baking dish--about six nice-sized
fillets or chunks) of halibut (the real catch: in Oertha, I could
get fresh frozen halibut cheaply!--other firm white fish work quite
well, also), pour over sauce made of:
1 cup sour cream
1 cup melted butter
1/2 cup grated Parmesan cheese
Cover dish with foil and bake about 40-45 minutes at 350 (depending
on size of oven and number of pans). Remove foil for the last five
minutes of baking time to allow sauce to brown and get that nice
cheesy crust.
It is not low in calories nor cholesterol.
jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu
University of Denver
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:11:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks fish-longish
<< ***WARNING*** Non-redacted-from-period-source but doable at SCA feast
fish-recipe-that-even-fighters-will-eat about to follow:
Fish rarely gets served at SCA feast, and I can understand why;
Clarissa admirably summed up the reasons above.
HOWEVER: I do have a signature dish that feasters scrape the pans on
and I've had fighters ask me for the recipe. >>
Another way which was successful for me with the results that there was nary
a piece left was to dip whiting fillets in beer batter and deep fry it. I
added ground galengal and cubebs to the batter. The only complaint I had was
from someone who was allergic to fish and didn't read the menu.
I try to serve a fish dish at every feast I do. The reactions are always the
same. If they like fish, they love it. If they don't, they hate it. As far as
shellfish goes. A bushel of clams was donated for a feast. We steamed them
and sent them around to each table for anyone who would like them. Once again
they all disappeared.
I think that serving fish at a feast for the most part is frowned upon
because the responces are so emotional both yea and nay from the diners that
most cooks just donšt want to deal with it. My feelings are serve it. If
people don't want it they can always eat off-board ( meaning bring their own
food) or eat something else they do like.
I NEVER withhold an item from the menu just because I don't personally like
it. Mundanely, I make the best potato Salad (or so I've been told. :-)). It
gives me the dry heaves just to smell it! :-0
Lord Ras
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:04:27 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: s