fish-pies-msg

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fish-pies-msg - 1/24/19

Period fish pies. Recipes.

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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

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From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:30:19 -0500 (CDT)

Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #75

I have to contribute a favorite tale of a traditional wierd fish dish:

Stargazy Pie, made with a regular double pie crust, whole fresh Sardines,

Gammon, and Saffrom Milk. The heads of the fish are left to poke out of the

crust, staring upwards (thus "Stargazy").

Classify it under *Things that make ya go HMMM?* Top that, whydoncha!

Aoife

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:50:36 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Tuna Recipe?

THLRenata at aol.com wrote:

> Does anyone out there know of a good, preferably period recipe for fresh tuna?

I believe Chiquart's 15th-century recipe for Parmesan Pies (Tourtes of

Parma, etc.), the fish-day version, recommends tuna as one possible fish

to use. It's a long recipe, although I believe HG Cariadoc has his lady

wife's, Mistress Elizabeth's, translation webbed. Basically it is a

large pie with layers of dried fruit and fish, possibly some custard;

I'd have to check on the details.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:42:07 EDT

From: Seton1355 at aol.com

Subject: SC - 2 questions

Question:

Was lenten food, that is, the recipes, ever served at non-Lenten times?

Could the following recipe be served cold?

Thanks, Phillipa

TART DE BRYMLENT (A MEDIEVAL LENTEN TART)

Dough -- for 9 inch pie crust

1 1/2 lb Salmon -- cod, haddock or a -mixture

2 tb Lemon juice

2 tb Butter

2 ea Pears -- peeled, cored & thinly -sliced

2 ea Apples -- peeled,cored & thinly -sliced

1 c White wine

2 tb Lemon juice

2 tb Brown sugar

5 ea Cubebs: , thinly crushed

1/8 ts Cloves, ground

1/8 ts Nutmeg

1/4 ts Cinnamon

1/2 c Raisins

10 ea Prunes -- pitted & minced

6 ea Dates -- minced

6 ea Figs, dried -- minced

3 tb Red currant jelly -- or Damson

Preheat the oven to 425F and bake the pie crust for 10 minutes. Let cool.

Cut the fish into 1 1/2" chunks, salt lightly ands sprinkle with 2 tbsp lemon

juice.

Set aside.

Melt the butter in a large, heavy skillet and toss the pear and apple slices

in it until they are lightly coated.

Combine the wine, lemon juice, brown sugar, spices and dried fruits, and add

to the mixture in the skillet.

Cover and simmer about 15 minutes or until the fruit is soft but still firm.

Check the flavoring, and drain off excess liquid.

Paint jelly on the pie crust.

Combine fish chunks with fruit and place the mixture in the crust.

Bake at 375F for 15-25 minutes, or until the fish flakes easily.

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 01:07:12 -0400

From: harper at idt.net

Subject: Re: SC - 2 questions

And it came to pass on 2 Oct 00, , that Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

> Could the following recipe be served cold?

> Thanks, Phillipa

> TART DE BRYMLENT (A MEDIEVAL LENTEN TART)

> Dough -- for 9 inch pie crust

> 1 1/2 lb Salmon -- cod, haddock or a -mixture

[snip]

Some fish pies were served cold. Nola says that salmon pie (his

recipe is much simpler, just the fish and some spices) can be

served cold, but that one must make a hole in the bottom crust and

drain off the juices. Anglo-Norman culinary tastes may have been

different.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:41:27 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - 2 questions

Draining off the juices might not be the thing to do with this pie. The

sauce has a high sugar content and may need them to set up properly. Come

to think of it, draining the juices might also remove much of the sauce.

I'd experiment.

Bear

> And it came to pass on 2 Oct 00, , that Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

> > Could the following recipe be served cold?

> > Thanks, Phillipa

> > TART DE BRYMLENT (A MEDIEVAL LENTEN TART)

> >

> > Dough -- for 9 inch pie crust

> > 1 1/2 lb Salmon -- cod, haddock or a -mixture

> [snip]

> Some fish pies were served cold. Nola says that salmon pie (his

> recipe is much simpler, just the fish and some spices) can be

> served cold, but that one must make a hole in the bottom crust and

> drain off the juices. Anglo-Norman culinary tastes may have been

> different.

> Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:01:56 +0200

From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Fish pie recipe

>If anyone has that fish and fruit pie recipe, please re-post it.

Do you mean this?

Harleian MS. 279 - Dyuerse Bake Metis

x. Rapeye. Take Dow, & make [th]er-of a brode [th]in cake; [th]en take

Fygys & Roysonys smal y-grounde, & fyrst y-sode, An a pece of Milwelle or

lenge y-braid with-al; & take pouder of Pepir, Galyngale, Clowe[3], & mence

to-gedere, & ley [th]in comede on [th]e cake in [th]e maner of a benecodde,

y-rollyd with [th]in hond; [th]an ouer-caste thy cake ouer [th]i comade, as

it wol by-clippe hit; & with a sawcere brerde go round as [th]e comade

lyith, & kutte hem, & so he is kut & close with-al, & bake or frye it, &

[th]anne serue it forth.

10. Rapeye. Take Dough, & make thereof a broad thin cake; then take Figs

& Raisins small ground, & first seethed, And a piece of Haddock or ling

pounded withal; & take powder of Pepper, Galingale, Cloves, & mix together,

& lay thine mixture on the cake in the manner of a bean-cod, rolled with

thine hand; then cast thy cake over thy mixture, as it will embrace it; &

with a saucer rim go round as the mixture lies, & cut them, & so he is cut

& closed withal, & bake or fry it, & then serve it forth. (From Take a

Thousand Eggs or More, vol. 1, p. 72)

Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu

cindy at thousandeggs.com

Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th

Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing

Recipes"

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:25:18 -0600

From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: SC - Re: Talking of Pies

Elysant wrote:

>There is a pie called "Star-gazie Pie" which my mother told me of (I've never

>eaten it). (snip) It is a fish pie made with whole

>(cleaned) fish within it, laid side by side. The top crust has holes cut in

>it and the head and tail of the fish are pulled through the holes from

>beneath so the body of the fish is "submerged" in the pie and the heads and

>tails poke through the holes and are above the crust - making the fish "gaze"

>at the stars - at least that where I'm assuming the title came from....Has

>anyone else on the list heard of this pie? I wonder about the origins of

>it....

Dorothy Hartley, in _Food in England_ has a drawing of a "stargazy" pie (made of

pilchards) along with several other dough-wrapped fish presentations. She

doesn't give an origin, however.

Alys Katharine

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:41:19 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: Pasties was ( SC - Running an Inn???)

> Also meat pies or pasties

> (although I don't believe pasties are documentably period)

> are good choices and can be made ahead. They are good at

> ambient temps. If you get a Coleman oven that really helps

> as well.

> Gunthar

I don't know about the Cornish pasties we've kicked around are period, but

here is a little something from Ein Buch von Guter Speise which meets the

basic criteria for a pasty.

Bear

15. Von pasteden (Of pasties)

Wilt du machen pasteden von vischen. so schupe die vische und ziuhe in abe

die hut, swenne sie erwallen, und hau sie zu cleinen st¸cken. hacke peterlin

und salbey dor in und tu dor zu pfeffer und yngeber, zinemin und saffran.

temper ez allez mit wine einen d¸nnen derben teye und tu die vische dor in.

und giuz den wine dor uf und decke ez mit eime d¸nnen teyge und mache daz

umme und um gantz und brich oben ein loch dor in. und lege da f¸r ein

cl¸sterlin von teyge und laz ez backen. Also mac man auch h¸enre machen.

auch fleisch oder wilprete oder ele ode vˆgele.

This is how you want to make pasties of fish. So scale the fish and remove

the skin when it boils. And strike it to small pieces. Chop parsley and sage

there in. And do thereto pepper and ginger, cinnamon and saffron. Temper it

all with wine and make a thin dough (possibly freshly made as opposed to

sourdough) and add the fish therein and give the wine thereon and cover it

with a thin dough and make that round and round whole (possibly shape the

pastry before adding the fish and wine). And break above a hole there in and

lay there for a cover of dough and let it bake. So one may make also hens.

Also meat or wild meat or eel or birds.

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:49:51 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Original Recipe Wanted

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Cc: Meisterin Katarina Helene <meisterin.katarina at comcast.net>

Helen Schultz wrote:

<<< I have a nifty recipe called "Crustardes of Eerbis on Fyssh Day" that is supposed to be from somewhere between the 14th and 19th century (although, I think it is earlier, based on the spelling of the title). The book it is in doesn't list the actual Medieval recipe (sadly), but does reference one small part of it, again, with the 14th century type spellings. I would love to find the original recipe if possible. It is basically a kind of fish tartlet or pie, using Haddock, pepper and cinnamon for the main fish, and the sauce contains shelled walnuts, parsley, thyme, lemon balm (that is probably modern), rosemary, lemon juice (for the verjuice of the original recipe, the author says), and saffron. I have made this as small individual tartlets (like little pillows) and they were very well received.

Any help would be more than welcome.

~~ Katarina Helene >>>

It's part of the Forme of Cury so you can find it in

Hieatt & Butler's Curye on Inglysch on page 134,

It's recipe 164.

Or online it's at

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?foc:156

This is an excerpt from *Forme of Cury*

(England, 1390)

The original source can be found at the Project Gutenberg website

<http://www.gutenberg.net/>;

CRUSTARDES OF EERBIS ON FYSSH DAY. XX.VII. XVII. Take gode Eerbys and

grynde hem smale with wallenotes pyked clene. a grete portioun. lye it

up almost wi? as myche verions as water. see? it wel with powdour and

Safroun withoute Salt. make a crust in a trape and do ?e fyssh ?erinne

unstewed wi? a litel oile & gode Powdour. whan it is half ybake do ?e

sewe ?erto & bake it up. If ?ou wilt make it clere of Fyssh see? ayrenn

harde. & take out ?e zolkes & grinde hem with gode powdours. and alye it

up with gode stewes and serue it forth.

Johnnae

Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:52:00 -0700 (PDT)

From: Helen Schultz <meisterin02 at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Original Recipe Wanted

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I've found the original recipe on my own <sigh>... it helps to look at the bibliography of cookbooks BEFORE one sends out a plea for help.

I found the original in Forme of Cury (#164).? In case anyone is curious about the original, this is what it says (I don't have that letter we all know means 'th' so I have just used 'th' where it was in the original):

Crustardes of eerbis on fyssh day.? Take gode eerbys and grynde hem smale with wallenotes pyked clene, a grete porcioun.? Lye it vp almost with as myche verious as water; seeth it wel with powdeour and safrun withoute salt.? Make a crust in a trap and do the fyssh therinne, vnstewed, with a litel oil & gode powdour.? Whan it is half ybaked, do the sewe thereto and bake it vp.? If thou wilt make it clere of fyssh, seeth ayren harde & take out the yolkes & grinde hem with gode powdours, and alye it vp with tho sewe and serue it forth.

The modern redaction I have is from a book called "Wild Blackberry Cobbler and Other Old-Fashioned Recipes," by Katie Stewart and Pamila Michael. It is in the section of English recipes from the 14th to the 19th century.? It is as follows:

6 oz shortcrust? pastry

2 lbs fresh haddock fillets

salt & fresh ground pepper

pinch of ground cinnamon

2 Tbsp olive oil

Sauce:

4 oz shelled walnuts

a bunch of fresh parsley

2 sprigs fresh thyme

2 springs fresh lemon balm

1 small sprig fresh rosemary

juice of 1 lemon, with same amount of water

generous pinch of saffron

Roll out the pastry and line an 8-9" pie plate and set aside. Using a sharp knife, skin the fish and chop the flesh into rough pieces. Fill the pastry case with the fish and season well with salt & pepper and the pinch of cinnamon. Spoon over the oil and place in the center of a moderate oven (350 degrees) for 20 minutes.

Meanwhile, prepare the sauce. Chop the walnuts coarsely, wash and strip the herbs from their stalks and chop finely or pass through a parsley mill and place in a saucepan with the walnuts. Add the lemon juice, water and saffron. Season with pepper and simmer for about 5 minutes, then remove from the heat.

Spoon sauce mixture over the top of the partly baked fish and return to the oven for a further 10 minutes. Serve hot.

As I mentioned before, I didn't follow this exactly, but made little individual pillows of dough (I actually used canned biscuit dough) and spooned the sauce over them when plated.? I don't recall any of them coming back to the kitchen untouched, but some might just have been thrown away <shrug>.

~~ Katarina Helene

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Meisterin Katarina Helene von Sch?nborn, OL

Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.comcast.net

Middle Kingdom

http://meisterin.katarina.home.comcast.net

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:10:08 -0800 (PST)

From: Carole Smith <renaissancespirit2 at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Martino recipe

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I really like Martino. I just tried his Dried Pies Made with Whole Fish on p.89. I bought a 1.75 pound tilapia, had the store behead and clean it. (Yes, I know Martino never met a tilapia, but it was small enough for experimentation purposes.)

At home I filleted cut the two sides away from the spine, made a piecrust. I used dried parsley flakes, powdered marjoram and thyme under, between, and over the fish. Folded over the piecrust, and baked at 350 for one hour.

It came out beautifully, and tastes pretty good, even at room temperature.

A question for those of you more familiar with Martino: What spices should I have used?

Cordelia Toser

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:41:28 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino recipe

To: renaissancespirit2 at yahoo.com, Cooks within the SCA

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

So you are looking for the spices that might be found in "with salt and

good spices that have been mixed together"?

Sometimes it helps to look at another version of the same text, so I

have been looking at the Octavo edition.

Gillian Riley uses the words "nice spices."

She notes that "His recipes take quite a bit for granted,... and he does

not feel the need to specify what he means by bone spezie (mild spices), spezie dolce (sweet spices), or spezie forte (strong spices)."

I suspect in fact that the unspecified spices should have been more along the lines of pepper, cloves, and cinnamon or cassia and not herbs. (I know cinnamon

and fish are not thought of together these days.)

This version of Martino allows for keyword

searching so I can in fact look for an ingredient throughout the manuscript.

For example--- Parsley, marjoram, and mint are specified for the open tart of pigeon or fowl and marjoram is again specified in the veal olives and veal meatballs.

I have to wonder if he'd wanted marjoram with the fish, if he wouldn't

perhaps have specified marjoram.

BUT if the recipe worked for you and the marjoram worked with the

tilapia, then I'd certainly count the entire venture a great success.

Johnnae

Carole Smith wrote:

<<< I really like Martino. I just tried his Dried Pies Made with Whole Fish on p.89. snipped

I used dried parsley flakes, powdered marjoram and thyme

under, between, and over the fish. snipped A question for those of you more familiar with Martino: What spices should I have used?

Cordelia Toser >>>

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:43:58 -0500

From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino recipe

To: renaissancespirit2 at yahoo.com, Cooks within the SCA

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Actually, he might have met a tilapia. While prepping for my Middle Eastern

feast last year, I discovered that tilapia has been around for a very long

time and was well-known in the Mediterranean area. In fact, I'm told it's

even mentioned in the Bible. So...you have actually used a period fish!

Kiri

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Carole Smith

<renaissancespirit2 at yahoo.com>wrote:

<<< I really like Martino. I just tried his Dried Pies Made with Whole Fish on p.89. I bought a 1.75 pound tilapia, had the store behead and clean it. (Yes, I know Martino never met a tilapia, but it was small enough for

experimentation purposes.) >>>

Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 12:15:38 -0700 (PDT)

From: Donna Green <donnaegreen at yahoo.com>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fish Empanadas

I've been struck with a silly notion today. I'm going to try making the salmon or perhaps tuna empanadas from Nola, per the marvelous Brighid's translation, using a taiyaki mold.

The recipes are:

Salmon Empanado

You must take the salmon, well-cleaned and washed, and take your spices, which are long pepper, galingale, and ginger, and all this well-ground with salt, but in such a manner that there is not too much spice, but moderate; then make the empanadas, and put the salmon inside. And cast the spices on top and beneath, and all over. And then cover the empanada and let it go to the oven to cook; and when it is cooked, if you wish to eat the salmon cold, make a hole in the empanada under the bottom crust so that the broth comes out, because with it, it cannot be kept well.

and

Palamida En Pan

Take the bonito, and after scaling and cleaning it, cut in into round pieces as big as four fingers, and then make the empanadas. And take the spices which are pepper, and ginger, and salt, and all this well-ground; and you can put saffron if you wish; and then cast these spices upon the fish, and put it in your empanadas and let it go to the oven to cook. And the time to eat the bonito is the month of March; and when you have it to send it to the oven, cast on a little oil.

This is a taiyaki (sorry for the wikipedia reference) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyaki

I'll probably use Markham's wafer batter or something like it http://www.medievalcookery.com/recipes/wafers.html but perhaps with less sugar since I'm going for a savory little pie.

Have any of you done anything along these lines? It just seems to me that the results should be cute and tasty. I've made these empanadas before as filling for bread rolls, but fish shaped fish pies appeal to my sense of whimsey :-)

I'll let you know how they turn out.

Juana Isabella

West

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] parmasean tarts

Date: March 27, 2018 at 3:01:15 PM CDT

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I am trying to remember where I saw the recipe for fish tarts called parmasan or parmasean. Does anyone rememebr this?

Katherine Slough >>>

Chiquart Du Fait de Cuisine Tarts of Parma. Here's the recipe.

40. Now I, Chiquart, would like to give to understand to him who will be ordered to make parma tarts of fish, let him take slices of tuna if he is in a place where he can get marine fish, and if not let him take as much of those of fresh water, that is large filleted carp, large eels and large filleted pike, and of this take such a great quantity as he is told to make the said tarts; and take candied raisins, prunes, figs, dates, pine nuts, and of each of these take what seems to him right to take according to the quantity of the said tarts; then, for the said tarts, let them be cut into pieces, cleaned and washed and put to cook well and cleanly; and, being well cooked, draw it out onto fair and clean tables or boards and let the bones be removed and take them out very well and properly so that no little bones remain, and chop them well and finely; and let the aforesaid raisins have the stems very well removed, let the pine nuts be cleaned very well, let the figs, prunes, and dates be cut into little dice; and, all these things thus dealt with, except for the meat, should be very well washed in white wine and drained, and then mix them with the aforesaid meat of the fish. And it is also necessary, according to the quantity of the said tarts which you have to make, that you have parsley, marjoram, and sage, and of each herb the quantity according to the strength of each, that is of parsley more and of the others less; and let them be well cleaned, washed, and very well chopped and then mix them with the aforesaid meat. And, this being done, have fair, clear, clean, and well refined oil and then have a fair, large and clean frying pan and let it be set over a fair clear fire and put all this into it, and have a good assistant with a fair, large and clean spoon who stirs very well and strongly in the said frying pan; and arrange that you have your almond milk well thickened and strained through a strainer, and a great deal of amydon according to the quantity of tarts which you have and put all in to thicken it; and then put your spices in with your meat while stirring the contents of the pan continually, that is white ginger, grains of paradise and a little pepper, and saffron which gives it color, and whole cloves and a great deal of sugar pounded into powder, and salt in reason. And arrange that your pastry-cooks have made well and properly the crusts of the said tarts, and, being made, take the aforesaid filling and put in each what should be put. And then arrange that you have a very great quantity of good and fair slices of good and fair eels which should be well and properly cooked in water and, being cooked, put them to fry in fair and clean oil; and, being fried, take them out; and then on each tart put three or four pieces, one here and another there, so that they are not together; and then cover the tarts and put in the oven and, being cooked, put them on your dishes and serve them.

And if it should happen that the aforesaid feast lasts more than the said two days one should take the meats, dishes, and entremets written here following.

And first a cocade pastry, the pilgrim capon, a cold sage, a calaminee, a calunefree of partridge, nurry pasty, rissoles, a parti-colored hot mengier, a mortress, shoulders of young mutton which are to be eaten with a sauce of the blood from the said shoulders, bourbulleys of wild boar, mortoexes, a vinaigrette, a jense, an oatmeal bruet of capons, endored kids' heads, chopped liver, a gratunee, another gratunee of Spain, shoulders of mutton stuffed and endored.

Translated by Elizabeth Cook. http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Du_Fait_de_Cuisine/Du_fait_de_Cuisine.html

Bear

From: The Eloquent Page <books at TheEloquentPage.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] parmasean tarts

Date: March 28, 2018 at 9:04:17 AM CDT

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

A friend just told me that there is one in Hieatt's A Gathering of English Recipes too.

Katherine

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] parmasean tarts

Date: March 28, 2018 at 8:46:43 PM CDT

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The tart permusan which appears in Hieatt’s Gathering of English Medieval Recipes is found originally in the New York Public Library’s MS Whitney 1. It’s dated as early 15th century. There’s an indication that the Corpus Christie College manuscript also contained such a recipe, but the manuscript is missing most of the text for that recipe.

Johnnae

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] parmasean tarts

Date: March 29, 2018 at 8:38:58 AM CDT

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I've been chasing the dating of the manuscripts for fun and have encountered an online copy of Hieatt's Cockatrice and Lamprey Hay which is a transcription and commentary of the Corpus Christie College Manuscript. It can be found here http://docplayer.net/10448806-Cocatrice-and-lampray-hay.html

Bear