child-clothes-msg

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child-clothes-msg - 10/21/14

Period and SCA children's clothing.

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[submitted by Ches <ches at io.com>]

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:50:47 -0400

From: Dale Loberger <dloberger at esri.com>

Organization: ESRI - Charlotte

To: CHES at mail.io.com

For your perusal and amusement, I will try to briefly describe how my

four little ones and I "live" a hundred and fifty to two hundred years

ago. I will forewarn you, I get verbose.

You are free to use this any way you wish.

My oldest daughter is eleven, & has been going with us to Rev War events

and helping out at several sites c. 1785 - 1845 since she was six.

Since she came along before our living history days and missed being a

"two-hundred year old baby", I won’t include her experience.

We have a son, just turning four, and two younger daughters (ages two

and six months) who have been with us to several events, both in camp

and at homesites. We try to keep their participation just during the

day as it is too tiring both for me and them to do an overnighter just

yet. But I do get good response –make that enthusiastic approval –from

visitors, other docents, and site directors wherever we do participate.

This is what we do:

First of all, I always make sure I am near a private place, tent, barn,

bushes, whatever, where I can breastfeed and change a diaper at a

moment’s notice. Hungry, uncomfortable babies are usually a little too

authentic for our nerves. For the first six or seven months, I dress

the baby in a very wide-necked, plain white linen chemise with

drawstring neckline and ungathered straight long sleeves, white linen or

cotton daycap with face-framing ruffles that ties under the chin, and a

long white gown of silky lightweight white cotton damask made with

drawstrings across the front and back neckline, shoulder strap insets,

and an above-waist drawstring that goes around under the arms and across

the chest. It is similar to the Boone frock pattern available at Amazon

Drygoods but I copied it from a painting I saw long before I found out

about this pattern. (The cover of Merideth Wright’s *Everyday Rural

Clothing 1783 - 1800* shows a little boy wearing a similar frock, only

this one has three drawstrings.) The sleeves are plain and long like

the chemise. Since the babies have all been small infants during the

cooler months I have only had to keep the child warm; if it were too

warm I would probably leave off the long gown and just use the chemise."

We have documentation in this area (Piedmont North Carolina; known then

as the Backcountry) of babies, children, and women all going about

wearing only a chemise during the hot summer months. I have several

blankets of varying weight woven wool, some felted, some not, some"

hemmed with blanket stitch, the felted ones just left with a raw edge.

They are all in either white or very pale tans or yellow. One is a very

subtle tan and cream plaid that is felted and very soft and lightweight.

(This is the one my eleven-year old likes to steal and use as a shawl

–it is very pretty). With an abundance of blankets and linen squares,

you can hide a lot. I use a couple of triangular linen neckerchiefs and

some large squares of linen as burp napkins, and to drape over myself if

I have to feed "in public, " etc.

For diapers, I purchased some knitted "soakers" of soft, undyed New

Zealand wool from the Natural Baby company to cover a regular

disposable. (1-609-771-9233 if you’re interested; they’re about $16.00

apiece). These breathe so the baby is comfortable and do the job

nicely. I also have some natural felt diapers that I used once but

these leaked. I know that’s authentic and if I just had one I would

probably go with it, but with three at once in diapers it was a bit

much. (The info we have here is that a strip of red flannel was often

wrapped about the baby and pinned. It was changed once a day and left

off at night. This is for the poorer classes of people and since we

usually portray a middle-class family I don’t use anything of red

flannel.)

When the baby outgrows this first gown, he or she gets a short-sleeved

ankle-length frock made just like it. For my son I used a tan and white

striped linen with straight, elbow length sleeves. When he outgrew that

after a year or so (it finally came up to his knees) I made him another

just like it. This last one I made so that the above-waist drawstring

hangs out at the back for a sort of leading string, instead of having

the opening inside the gown as were the first two. This also mcde it a

lot easier to put on. In cold weather he wears a plain white flannel

shirt cut similarly to Dad’s except without a collar under the frock.

This hides anything else I need to put on him for warmth (long johns,

etc.) He jas two triangular woven cotton check kerchiefs that sometimes

get worn and sometimes do more useful things like carry frogs, rocks,

little piles of dirt, etc.

My two-year old is just outgrowing her brother’s aforementioned second

frock and has two new ones. The first is a lavendar calico with tiny

dark purple vines all over it and tiny puffed sleeves. The second is a

buttercream-yellow with a small-scale vine and leaf pattern in tan with

short, plain sleeves edged with a modestly embroidered cotton scalloped

edging. She also has two kerchiefs, one a whkte linen and one a

two-tone gold check. (She is better about wearing hers than my son is.)

To keep them warm in the winter months I have made them felted woolen

tie-on capes dyed with walnut shells to a pale taupe, and my

mother-in-law knitted them each a beautiful pair of woolen leggings, the

kind that have a seat like tights. They tie at the waist with a leather

thong and are made from Cotswold wool right from the sheep at one of our

sites. I also have very thick cotton ribbed tights –with suspenders

--for the two littlest ones to wear under the leggings if need be. They

all usually wear plain white or red woolen or cotton socks and Daddy

made them each pairs of leather mocassins in the Ft. Ligonier style. I

have a pattern kit for some beautiful needlepointed ankle-tie booties

that are a copy of a pair in the Boston Museum from 1786 (?) but haven’t

gotten around to making them. Maybe by the time we have

grandchildren-reenactors … I also have a pattern for some little linen

baby shoes that tie across the instep, similar to modern tap shoes. I

really should make those; they would probably look better with my

daughter’s frocks than mocassins…

For bibs, we usually just tie on a cloth napkin that previously was

wrapped around some of the food we packed. We have some blue & white

checked ones as well as white linen. I always have plenty of cloth on

hand; for wipes and spills and burp cloths and napkins. I also pack at

least two large quilts and/or wool blankets just for playing on. You

didn’t ask about toys/games and amusements, so I won’t go into those;

they would take another half-hour to write about. (Daddy is a

woodworker and Mom is a seamstress; these kids are not hurting for

things to do.)

Since the two year old is the one who is always falling and getting into

scrapes, Daddy made her a real rabbit-skin pudding-type cap that ties

under her chin. She also wears a plain cotton cap with a large brim

like a sunbonnet or poke. She also has a large-brimmed straw hat with

pale pink silk ribbon ties but that is probably too small for now and

the littlest one will be wearing it next. Big hats are great for

keeping heads cool and noses from getting too pink. Our son also wears

a broad-brimmed straw hat. I have slipped an extra pair of little white

cotton socks over their hands to serve as mitts in cold weather.

You’d think I’d have had Grandma knit them some when she did those

leggings, wouldn’t you, but I didn’t think about it.

The great thing about these drawstring-fitted gowns is that it takes

them so long to outgrow them. Eventually they get too tight under the

arms. My son is still wearing the ones I made him two years ago. I

have the patterns available for anyone who is interested. I also have

copied the little shortcoat from Linda Baumgarten’s Eighteenth Century

Clothing at Williamsburg for a little boy in gold-colored linen. My son

is just now ready for his first pair of breeches and shirt just like

Dad’s so that is our next project, to scale them down to fit. He is

also demanding his own pair of "leprechcun shoes" which is what he calls

Dad’s straight-last buckle shoes. I know Mistress Trowbridge at

Williamsburg has some but they are expensive! Also, I have made a

pattern for ankle-length front-fall trousers, wide-collared shirt and

Eton-type jacket for a boy of about seven so I have that, too if anyone

is interested.

I just looked back and realized I talked a lot about cold weather and

keeping them warm. This must be because every time we go it rains. If

the weather is warm we just put on the basic frocks, hats, and mocs and

go. Hope this has been of some help!

Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring

(Susan B. Loberger, Susannah’s Heirloom, Ltd.)

From: Katherine Penney <katex at teleport.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Child Patterns

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:08:45 -0800

jordana wrote:

> I have a request that may sound strange. I am wanting

> to make some cool outfits for my niece to play dress-up in. I can

> make ok dresses for myself, and i am hoping that but getting her to

> fall in love with sca costumes will be a way to subvert her into the

> sca(which is what my sister(the mother) claims that i am doing) for

> this reason i don't want to the basic tunic type thing as i think

> that would not do the trick. What i wanted to try to make was a

> mid-1500's german dress but since i have never made anything for a

> small child(asides from my nieces christing dress which i had a

> pattern for) i was hoping someone could help me with some tips

> on how to adapt a pattern for a grown-up to a child--you see,

> i kinda want to make her a version of a dress i aldedy have.

> Thank you very much for your time and have a nice day.

> Chastity

> Tree-Girt-Sea

> jordana at spss.com

> 102466.507 at compuserve.com

I'm assuming that since you say a "small child" you mean pre-pubescent.

Cutting down an adult pattern to fit a child will cause serious

problems.

For example, when I was 8, I was fitted for a stage costume. my

measurements were exactly the same. Now, I've got 14 or 15 inches

difference between my bust and waist, and about 7 inches between my

waist and hips....would you like to try to cut down one of MY patterns

for a child?

I do not know of a Ren German child's dress. I would look for a modern

pattern that has roughly the same cut as what you want and then go from

there. I'm assuming your dress has that high waist (i.e. Italian/German

Ren) look... there are many girls' dresses with this type of cut...and

they usually have puffy sleeves too... :)

Constance

From: sjmoyes at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Shannon Moyes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Child Patterns

Date: 14 Jan 1997 19:44:59 GMT

Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523

Chastity,

It depends on how old your niece is, but there are some period patterns

for children, particularly little girls. I even have a book that contains

the period patternm for a six year old found in Augustiner-Nonnenkirche zu

Blomberg. The little girl died in 1600. The patern is correct for a child

and has all of the proportions so that you can alter it to fit a larger child.

Anyway, the book is "Patterns of Fashion" by Janet Arnold. You should be able

to get your library to find it for you through interlibrary loan if they do not

have it in their shelves. The ISBN is 0 33 38284 6, which should be everything

you need to find it. You may also order it from your local book store.

I hope this helps,

Rossilin von Hohenzollern

From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Child Patterns

Date: 16 Jan 1997 10:43:40 GMT

Check out the costume section in eathier Mcalls or Simplicity. I have

personaly made childrens costumes using these as well as many other

mundane patterns. They are easily addapted to fit any time & place all it

takes is a little imagination & even less work. Childrens costuming is a

great way to try uot differant styles, as you need a lot less fabric (so

you can go into those really expensive bracades or drape the costume in

tons of trim you can't afford). This isn't for every day wear mind you but

for a&s there is nothing that will beat out a really hot childs costume. I

know this from experiance. I have made dozens of adut costumes & never won

once, but pull out a kids costume & I can't loose.Any way you will

probable need as little as 1 or 2 yards of fabric. If you want to match

use the expensive childs fabric for your trim pieces. Making a childs

costume from the old skirt of one of your costumes is truly period. Try

using muslim for your first attempt. This slooper can latter be used as a

pattern & also as a linning, & it is inexpensive when making misstakes.

For each layer you must increase the sizeing by maybe a 1/4 of an inch all

around to fit properly. Rember too, that said child will want to wear the

fancy "Princes" costumes to school for halloween. Keep the costumes at

your house if you don't want her playing dress up with her friends at

home. Don't make your sister have to tell her she can't play in them. Also

keep a play tunic at hand for when she wants to romp with the other kids

after court, you want her to have fun too.Try these ideas out.

Lady Cate

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: sequel to: medieval maternity clothes.

Date: 22 Jan 1997 17:41:22 GMT

Organization: University of California at Berkeley

In article <32E6484D.54FE at continue.uoregon.edu>,

Russell Gilman-Hunt <rgh at continue.uoregon.edu> wrote:

>Ok, so we're 12 c. Irish. What would be appropriate wear for say, an,

>18 day old girl?

Swaddling bands. Take a strip of linen and wrap the child (onto

whom you have first attached an out-of-period diaper) until it

can't move its arms and legs. This is the traditional way to

clothe a baby all the way from St. Luke's Gospel up into the

beginning of the twentieth century (in some places, e.g., Germany),

and it may even make the baby's life easier; when my eldest was

having a rotten time with three-month colic, the pediatrician

recommended swaddling him in a blanket, wrapped tightly enough

that he couldn't move his arms and legs--which he hadn't been

able to move before, and which were currently only confusing him.

It did help.

Incidentally, for a boy, the same thing.

how about a 1 year old girl? Just linen and wool

>tunic-type things, or something specific?

Once the kid gets out of swaddling bands--whenever she starts to crawl--

put her in tunics short enough that she can crawl in them. I'm

assuming she'll be crawling around indoors or on grass. If the

ground is hard, or excessively dirty, or the weather is cold, you

can restrain her from crawling on it (good luck!) or put her in

tights or trews or something under the tunic.

The ground rule, all through the SCA period--you'll see this in

virtually every source book you look in--is that children were

dressed like adults.

One trick I used when my kids were small, learned from Diana

Listmaker, is to make a tunic that's several sizes too large for

the kid now. Now take a series of tucks in the shoulders,

gathering the shoulder fabric inwards. Take tucks in the

sleeves, take tucks in the hem. Just a single line of stitching

on the wrong side will do. I shall now attempt to do a diagram

of a T-tunic with tucks in it with ASCII characters....

__________________ __________________

| | | | | | \________/ | | | | | |

| | | | | | | | | | | |

|__________ ____________|

| |

|--------------------|

| |

|____________________|

As you can see, I hope, the tucks in the sleeves and hems go all

the way around, making them shorter, while the tucks over the

shoulders open out into pleats, making the body of the tunic

fuller than the shoulders.

Now what you do, as the child grows, is every now and then to

pull out one (or a pair) of those tucks. By the time all the

tucks have been taken out and the child has still outgrown the

tunic, it's probably worn out.

I don't know if this is a period technique but it does go back to

AS single-digits and it works.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at uclink

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:14:00 -0500

From: Paula_Peterka at AirNSun.blkcat.com (Paula Peterka)

Subject: Child Patterns

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Net 109 Fidonet <-> Internet Gateway

Greetings from Paula! Jordana at spss.com recently wrote:

From: jordana <jordana at spss.com>

>Dear My Lords and Ladies

> I have a request that may sound strange. I am wanting

>to make some cool outfits for my niece to play dress-up in. I can

>make ok dresses for myself, and i am hoping that but getting her to

>fall in love with sca costumes will be a way to subvert her into the

>sca(which is what my sister(the mother) claims that i am doing) for

>this reason i don't want to the basic tunic type thing as i think

>that would not do the trick. What i wanted to try to make was a

>mid-1500's german dress but since i have never made anything for a

>small child(asides from my nieces christing dress which i had a

>pattern for) i was hoping someone could help me with some tips

>on how to adapt a pattern for a grown-up to a child--you see,

>i kinda want to make her a version of a dress i already have.

>Thank you very much for your time and have a nice day.

> Chastity

Guten Tag, Genadige Fraulein!

I am the Hauptfrau of a Landsknecht Fahnlein, and we make all of our own

clothing. One of my new members is currently making a dress for her

5-year old daughter. If you will e-mail me you snail adress, I will see

if I can send you a pattern from her clothes, when we have finished

them. It will be musch easier to adapt a child's pattern to fit another

child, than to adapt an adult's pattern (as we are finding out). :) If

you do not wish to wait, then I have a few suggestions:

I am assuming that the basic style you would like to make is a

square-necked sleeveless bodice, with a full skirt and detachable sleeves.

This is accurate for the first half of the sixteenth century. Detachable

sleeves are easier to sew, and can make dress-up even more fun, if you

make a few pairs. She can then mix and match her sleeves, or go without

them entirely if it is hot. If you try to adapt the bodice, remember that

a child's should not be as tight, simply because she will not have a bust

to support, and that most little ones don't have much of a chest/waist/hip

difference. Attaching the skirt to the bodice may not give as much

flexibility for mix-and-match, but it will help keep the skirts on her. I

would suggest finding a good child's "jumper-dress" pattern, if you can,

and working from there. Alternately, if you have access to a copy, Janet

Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ does contain at least one, I think maybe

two, girls' patterns. These are for the second half of the century, and

the bodices have closed fronts and high necks. They are a bit more

difficult to put together than the square necked bodices, but they're

dead-on accurate for 1550 - 1600, since they're taken from extant original

garments. (Mostly from burial clothes, giving that last sentence a nasty

pun that I didn't intend. Sorry :) )If I can be of further assistance,

please let me know! If you are close enough geographically, mayhaps we

could get together; my Fahnlein runs series' of costume and character

workshops, you are more than welcome to come over for them!

Viel Gluck und Viel SpaB!

Anjabeth Blode, Weib des Hauptmanns des TeufelsAlpdrucken Fahnlein

aka- Paula Peterka, Crazy lady in charge of all those Germans!

From: nzsm at spis.co.nz (SPIS & NZ Science Monthly)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: sequel to: medieval maternity clothes.

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 04:48:12 GMT

Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd

In article <5c7ksq$bv6 at reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> manth at ozemail.com.au writes:

>Thanks for the tunic idea - I've been racking my brains what to do

>with my 2yo and 9mo daughters when I take them along to events!

One thing I've found handy for an approach to children's cloaks is to make

them as lined rectangles with a cord long enough to pass from one side to

the other when it's flattened out (means they can flatten it as a blanket to

sit on if need be).

Cut it about 1/3 as long again as the child's height. When you sew the

lining to the outer, leave a cord-sized gap at the current right height for

the child and also leave a gap close to the end of the rectangle.

That way you have extra protection over the shoulders (ie the extra 1/3

bunches up as an extra layer when the cord is pulled and the cloak arranged

around the neckline); you also have a form of hood by pulling the extra 1/3

up and over the head and pinning in place; and when they get taller you

transfer the cord from the lower holes to the upper so you don;t have to

make them another cloak.

Well, it works for us,

katherine kerr, who does not have documentation for this, bnut is merely

letting her Scots ancestry showing through...

========================================

New Zealand Science Monthly -- NZ's only general-interest science magazine

nzsm at spis.co.nz * Fax: +64-3-384-5138 * Tel: +64-3-384-5137

P.O. Box 19-760, Christchurch, New Zealand

<<< Humour, science, skeptics and SCA at: http://www.spis.co.nz >>>

Subject: Re: ANST - A Long Introduction

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 16:59:25 MST

From: Ghislaine Fontaneau/Elayne Hoover <elyh at wcc.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Hello, Sarah. Welcome to Ansteorra!

> 2) Like a said before, any info on period maternity clothes (any period in

> period would be fine for now! I'll only have to wear them till June :) ) I'm

> not going to sew much for Kev and Heather until they pick personas, but I'm

> sure when they do, I'll be back begging again ::sighs::

I recommend Houpelandes (sp?). In the day of the houpelande, it was

fashionable for women to have large, round bellies, and to stand leaning

slightly back....;-) sounds like pregnancy, don't it?

Check out the Houpelande homepage at:

http://www.pipcom.com/~tempus/houpelande.html

As for children's garb, I recommend that you put boys in a blousey

Elizabethan shirt three sizes too big. For girls, try Italian

Renaissance--the chemise is like a big, oversized blouse that she can

grow into over several years, and the over-dress can be made with tucks

of extra fabric in the shoulder seams and along the edges of the skirt

(if you do it right, it will look like fashionable, horizontal

pleating). Let out a few inches ever time she grows, until you've run

out of 'dress.' Additionally, the 'bib' of the overdress can be made to

begin life at her natural waist, and end life at the standard

Italian-Ren waistline.

Ghia

mka: Elayne "Ely" Hoover

SCA: Madame Ghislaine Fontanneau

elyh at wcc.net

From: wireharp at ix.netcom.com(RWM)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re: Clothing for Irish Children

Date: 3 Apr 1998 05:22:21 GMT

There is a woodcut from Derricke's Image of Ireland, 1581. It shows a

kerne, a chief and a horse-boy (groom). The boy is wearing the line in

the same fashion as the kerne, but he does not have the decorative

pleating around the waist. He also is not wearing trews... a risky

proposition considering how high that line is hiked up. It would

appear that the clothing is similar, but a simpler less costly version.

Hope this helps,

Sl‡n

Robert Mouland

wireharp at ix.netcom.com

From: "Celestria" <NOdkpirolo at cts.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Garb for children

Date: 1 Jun 1998 20:42:01 GMT

Ladynoire <ladynoire at aol.com> wrote

> My sons have decided they want fancy "court" garb. I need some serious help

> here. Where can I find patterns to fit them, and what are the best fabrics to

> use ? I want something durable, but some thing that looks nice, too. They want

> something shiny and fancy, but my boys are very rough on clothes.

> Also, what is a good choice for period-seeming footwear for children. My boys

> are 10 and 9, and refuse to wear anything other than tennis shoes. Argh!

> Lady Richende de Bevilacqua

> Canton of Kapellenberg, Barony of Wind Master's Hill

> Atlantia

Pajama patterns make great garb for kids IMO. Just look for one that has

tunic style top with pants. Also tie in the court garb with period shoes

and perhaps you will be able to get them out of their tennies.

Celestria

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Garb for children

Date: 2 Jun 1998 01:18:11 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Ladynoire (ladynoire at aol.com) wrote:

: My sons have decided they want fancy "court" garb. I need some serious help

: here. Where can I find patterns to fit them, and what are the best fabrics to

: use? I want something durable, but some thing that looks nice, too. They want

: want something shiny and fancy, but my boys are very rough on clothes.

Here's a crazy idea -- if they're old enough to want fancy, nice-looking

court garb, then they're also old enough to understand about dress-up

clothes and everyday clothes. Make a deal with them that you'll make them

fancy stuff only if they'll remember to change out of it if they plan to

do anything rough or dirty, and that if they don't hold up their end of

the deal, it'll be a long time before they get anything nice again. While

I understand the concerns on your end, I also remember being horribly

embarassed as a kid because my mother was still buying things that

"wouldn't show the dirt" in my early teens. Give them the chance -- they

may surprise you. Of course, it's also possible to make fancy clothes out

of sturdy fabrics that stand up to washing -- if you expect the outfits to

see a lot of laundering, the things I'd avoid are glitzy trims (ok, I'd

avoid them anyway), silk, and pile fabrics. Beyond that, use the same

fabrics you'd use for adults.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ojirelan at localhost

Subject: re: Garb for Children

Organization: Xerox

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:47:10 GMT

You can make dressy garb that will still hold up to kids, it all comes

down to how you make the garb. Particolored tunics, corduroy that has a

"velvet" pile (ie not too obviously ribbed), and velour that also has a velvet

look will work and will stand up to children. Add trim and fancy buttons

and you've got dressier garb. Use contrasting fabric for trim as well.

If you can get them in them, tunics and tights always look dressy.

Shoes - the best shoes I've found for my daughters (currently age 6 and 11)

are canvas shoes that look like the chinese flats but have a sturdier sole.

They come in slip-on styles for boys, and elasticized t-straps for girls.

Black is a good color. One mail order company, Playclothes I believe, carries

the canvas shoes in a variety of colors and sizes (except anything over a

3 darn it, my oldest is in a size 5 now!).

You can also find nice boots and sandals might work well too.(My oldest daughter

has a pair of black kneehigh boots that we picked up for about $8 on sale

at KMart).

I will admit that I made silk dresses for my daughters for a friend's wedding.

They looked delightful and only wore the dresses a couple of times..

I've made dressy garb out of cotton and polycotton blends that, with the right

cut and trimmings, looked very "court". Buttons, esp. gold ones in different

shapes or set with "gems" make good trim as well and look really elegant.

Best of luck!

Orianna

AEthelmearc

In Article re: Garb for Children , "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu> wrote:

<ladynoire at aol.com (Ladynoire)>:

>...Also, what is a good choice for period-seeming footwear for children.

>My boys are 10 and 9, and refuse to wear anything other than tennis shoes.

>...

A good choice is whatever goes with the rest of the outfit they are in.

Children (who wore shoes) wore the same styles that the adults did. As

for what some of your options can be, you could take a look at any of

the various websites that have sprung up on making shoes for re-enactment

and renn-faires. My personal favorite is at

"www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM"

OTOH, if you children want to wear only tennis shoes, then your options

become far more simple -- they certainly won't be the only people there

in them.

Marc/Diarmaid

lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:11:24 -0400

From: Lyn Greaves- home <rosamund at FRONTIERNET.NET>

Subject: Re: Children's garb

<<< My little girl is 3 1/2. I've been in a hiatus from the society since

she was born (between her and grad school). I'm interested in getting

involved again, but I have no patterns or info on kids' clothes. I

generally play Italian Renn and my lord is similar time period Swiss.

I'd love some ideas for her for either of these regions.

Raphaela >>>

Most children's garb of the time period that the SCA covers were smaller

versions of adult clothing. If you sew at all, a basic jumper pattern can

be modified-- lace the side seams (or snaps) and lengthen the skirt. . .

*poof* little Italian renn. . . Or, if you want a cotehardie, take a

princess seam dress and make it floor length. . . .

Simplicity also has a cute pattern for kids in their costume section.

Lyn Greaves

Lady Rosamund d'Alwareton

COM, COTerpsichore, COSalamander

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:47:21 -0500

From: Chiara <chiara at IO.COM>

Subject: Re: Children's garb

Here is one of the best sites for kids garb. But remember basically you make

your garb but smaller. :)

http://www.briaca.com/art/children.html

Chiara

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:18:54 +0200

From: Jim And Amy Wells <jawells at TIN.IT>

Subject: Re: Children's garb

Due to the high infant and child mortality rates, children's clothes were

often very simple and in most areas, boys and girls were dressed alike

except for the extremely wealthy. Up until normally age 5, they essentially

wore the same thing, a simple white gown with growth tucks and pleats in the

shoulders and sleeves and a deep hem. This allowed for the use of the

garment many years with a growing child, and ensured best use of material. A

very smart thing to do and in my opinion as a mother of 4 to garb, plus

myself and the Hubby, this ensures that I am not making a new outfit every 6

months.

If you like, I can send you a picture of my son in his gown that he has used

since 6 months old, he will be 4 in August. This will show the types of

pleats and tucks I am describing. As the child grows, they can be let out

and the garment is now a chemise. This saves allot and is very practical. On

my son, I will cut back the length and make a shirt for him when he is of

age. I still have about 3 years to go on his gown and plenty of tucks to

use.;)

Lady Giovanna Benevolo d' Sacile

Infimous Mons Aureus

Italia

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:32:31 +1000

From: Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole at AUSTARMETRO.COM.AU>

Subject: Re: Children's garb

<<< My little girl is 3 1/2. I've been in a hiatus from the society since

she was born (between her and grad school). I'm interested in getting

involved again, but I have no patterns or info on kids' clothes. I

generally play Italian Renn and my lord is similar time period Swiss.

I'd love some ideas for her for either of these regions.

Raphaela >>>

General tips I've picked up, let her have some input into her clothes (at 3

1/2 she's probably not terribly concerned but it will feel special if she

helped mummy make it, even if that help was just picking the fabric).

'Growth tucks' are a popular way of extending the life of garb (deep hems to

be let out for length and small tucks or extra large seam allowance for

width). Kids generally wore smaller versions of their parents garb. For

Italian Ren if you mean early 16th century high waisted, grab any high

waisted dress pattern (there's lots around) when they're on sale for .99c

make it ankle length voila Italian Ren (well underdress at least) if you do

a later period just pick a waist length bodice and modify it to match the

portraits. German is a bit more complex with all that slashing, but you

could look out for simpler versions. Matching garb is popular because you

can both use up the leftovers from your gown and if they get lost you tell

the searchers 'they're wearing a mini version of this'.

Make layers that can

be adjusted for varying temperatures (cotton flannel is a good for a cheap

warm layer). Watch out for wide necklines, if you are not careful they may

slip off the shoulders, in cold weather you will need to fill in that

neckline with a partlet (the heavy wool type not the thin gauzy type). All

natural fibres, important both because they breathe and they are not a fire

hazard. Include headwear, sunhats to avoid sunburn (and lots of sunscreen

because that hat will come off at some stage) and coifs to keep her warm.

try to leave her garb making to the last minute, if she has a growth spurt

in the 2 weeks between when you fit her and when you take her to the event

it could be uncomfortably tight. Make sure you can throw it in the washing

machine without worrying about it, I'd wait until she is older and

understands about special court garb before making her anything that needs

special care in washing.

Next time you're buying her shoes, consider some

'Mary Janes' the ones that buckle across the instep, as they very strongly

resemble a 16th century style of shoe (I'll try to find the portrait

references if you want)

Elizabeth

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole

Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia

ewalpole at austar.net.au

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:36:45 -0400

From: Theresa Greene <caterina at NEO.RR.COM>

Subject: Re: Children's garb

I also, have a 3 1/2 year old daughter and from past experience, the easier

it is to maintain & remove from her, the better. Also remember for camping

events (especially Pennsic) the weather can & will go full range, freezing

to scorching. Simplicity has a some nice kids patterns, #5517 turns out

well. I added buttons for the back & added some to the length for my

daughter. Also, for the recently potty trained, it should be something they

can get out of the way in a hurry for the port-o-potty's.

Caterina

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:20:35 -0700

From: Stephen Bergdahl <madlystitching at EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Children's garb

One tip I can give you is on shoes. My son is just 3, and we have found

that Jazz shoes are the best thing for period shoes. Black, and sort of

shaped like a Mary Jane. They fit longer because they are soft, and they

can be easy to find on the web, or at our local Wal-mart. We always buy one

or two sizes larger and stuff the toes, he's been going to events since he

was four months old, and is only on his second pair of shoes.

Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich

From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>

Date: November 23, 2006 3:19:23 PM CST

To: Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] clothe the kids

I've found it essentially impossible to find affordable, authentic

ready-made kids' clothes from the Middle Ages until now, so I thought

I'd pass on the good news to the other parents in the Barony.

Historic Enterprises has just issued a line of children's

clothing--including period underthings--based on archaeological finds

and 12th-16th century images

<http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_list&;c=133>.

The website cites the sources and offers both photos of real kids in

the pieces and a link to a 15th-century painting showing similar items,

so you can evaluate their authenticity even if you haven't already

developed an expertise in the area yourself. None of the pieces costs

more than $25.00, and they're all made of linen. If it gets any better

than this, _please_ point me to where.

I am _definitely_ recommending this site to the next person who writes,

"Eventually I might learn to sew, but for now I just want to get myself

and my kids some clothes to wear to events that really look medieval. .

.," to the SCA Newcomers list.

Coblaith Mhuimhneach

From: Sandra Geil <alexsandraeryn at yahoo.com>

Date: February 14, 2007 5:09:59 PM CST

To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Ansteorra Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15 - Children's Clothing Question

I found that a "long chemise" (Vivianne's first one was about a foot longer than she) under a modified "T" tunic (open up the front) worked very well. I only had to make 3 of the chemise part and 5 of the modified "T" tunics. When she started walking that was a whole other game - then it was pants and regular "T" tunics to match - again long "rolled" ( roll up about a half inch 3 - 4 times and tack the last roll)hems on the sleeves and legs made for decorations that could be let out for growth spurts. Now that she is almost 5 I can still get away with a "T" tunic dress but it must be PINK (yes I meant to holler)!

Good luck with the stitching :)

"New mom here. What are some good sources for children's clothing in period? I know it tended to be utilitarian (ie washable), especially early in life, but I have a new daughter who will need SCA clothes before long. Please keep in mind I am an amateur, inexperienced seamstress on my best days. Thanks for any help!

HL Genevieve"

From: L T <ldeerslayer at yahoo.com>

Date: February 14, 2007 8:05:50 PM CST

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Ansteorra Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15 - Children's Clothing Question

You can use commercial children's patterns...

or even "costume" patterns...

We came in when he was 4 and I only had to make

tunics ever few years... cause I made them big-ish

and long-ish...

once he hit 10ish I put in 3 to 4 inch hems...

used sturdy cotton material... and good trim/cloth as trim

and they lasted until he wanted specific clothing...

he still has and uses some of them from his early teens...

L DeerSlayer

Sandra Geil <alexsandraeryn at yahoo.com> wrote: I found that a "long chemise" (Vivianne's first one was about a foot longer than she) under a modified "T" tunic (open up the front) worked very well. I only had to make 3 of the chemise part and 5 of the modified "T" tunics. When she started walking that was a whole other game - then it was pants and regular "T" tunics to match - again long "rolled" ( roll up about a half inch 3 - 4 times and tack the last roll)hems on the sleeves and legs made for decorations that could be let out for growth spurts. Now that she is almost 5 I can still get away with a "T" tunic dress but it must be PINK (yes I meant to holler)!

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:38:32 +1000

From: Karen Hovenga <khovenga at tpg.com.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] clothing for infants

To: robyn at paradise.gen.nz, "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list"

Check out some of the patterns here - http://saravandenhove.wordpress.com/

The livejournal community here is also useful -

http://community.livejournal.com/garb_the_child/

Sara

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Robyn Ramsden <robyn at paradise.gen.nz>wrote:

<<< Now that we have an infant, we would like to clothe him for events.

I've had a general look on the web, and through the Kingdom webpage for

anything on clothing for infants.

I'm specifically looking for renaissance clothing for infants as both

Stafano and I are in that time arena.

Sancha da Sylva

Darton >>>

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:59:13 +1000

From: Carnelian Tryllyum <carntry at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] clothing for infants

To: robyn at paradise.gen.nz, "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list"

Greeting Sancha

There really aren't a lot of website with patterns. There are a great number with links to images. There ae a few with helpful hints and recommendations. Hope they are of some help.

Marienna Jensdatter has some info on her website sewing for babies in the sca http://www.forest.gen.nz.Medieval/articles/baby/sewing.html & class notes on childrens clothing (pdf) http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/baby/kidsgarb.pdf

Mode Historique - What Kids Wore 1477-1577 http://www.modehistorique.com/elizabethan/kids.html

Karen Larsdatter has a number of links to images http://www.larsdatter.com/children.htm

The Renaissance Tailor - good bits on sewing & measuring - which makes adapting a pattern easier http://www.renaissancetailor.com/site_map.htm

AElfled of Duckford http://www.sandradodd.com/duckford/children

Briaca's Demesne http://www.briaca.com/mygarb/kidgarb.html

Carnelian

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:36:31 +1000

From: "Jo-Anna Apelt" <thistle_f_down at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] clothing for infants

To: <robyn at paradise.gen.nz>, "The Shambles,the SCA Lochac mailing

list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

I don't know about "Period", but I have a 1 year old (well 1 on Sunday)

and we have him in a baby chemise and open sleeved jacket (the actual name

escapes me). It's practical cause you can put their normal clothes

underneath for warmth and if you make it big it will serve for a while.

Also gender neutral and can be made from off cuts of mum and dad's outfits.

We have one that was made for us (Thanks Kimmy) when our little one was 6

months old and it still fits him 6 months and 3 sizes later. And once they

start to crawl and walk just add a sash belt.

Johanna of Yorkshire

(Jo-Anna Apelt)

To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: sharing a site

Posted by: "Dorcas Lumpkin" bobndorcas at gmail.com engelise39648

Date: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:10 pm ((PST))

Just had to share a site for you textile folks. Middle eastern might like

it too... or even history buffs.

These two infant tunics, found south of Cairo by archaeologists, date to the

period after the Arab conquest of Egypt.

chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/210

at the botton of the page are links to 2 children's tunics and also a sock

from the 2nd century!

Engelise

To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Need more info...

Posted by: "Sarah K" sarah_a_klein at yahoo.com sarah_a_klein

Date: Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:12 am ((PST))

Another option you have is to hand-embroider on strips of fabric (muslin works fine, or leftover bits of linen, etc.) and applique those to the garments. Then when the wee kiddies outgrow the garment, you can just remove the hand-made trim and recycle it (even if it just goes onto a pouch or something, at least it's not a complete loss).

I find these smaller hand-stitching projects for embellishment are excellent for court, or other slow periods, and they are *excellent* when sitting at a demo, especially since fighting is so far from "interesting" to me it's not even funny. ;) I have four kids of my own, so embellishments are always on order. ;)

YiS,

~Solveig inn kyrra Thorhallasdottir

Mari asked:

<<< I finally have the time to start really working on our garb. I have made my kids basic tunics already but I was wondering on embellishments for them. I have found numerous examples and extant sources for tablet woven pieces put on edges usually neck and arms but I was wondering about embroidery. Especially for my little girl...just the pretty thing if you know what I mean. We are leaning towards norse/ viking personas but I am also pulled toward anglo/saxon and mid period Italian so I guess I am looking for something that would cover a large generic time and location span. ANY help and leads would be great... >>>

Children outgrow their clothes so fast that I'm not sure that I'm not sure that putting a lot of effort into hand done trim will the worthwhile.

From: Amra de Medici <renaissanceprincess2 at yahoo.com>

Date: October 28, 2011 7:08:35 AM CDT

To: "the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com"

Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} clothing for SCA children

I find that with Zayn, I make things 2 sizes too big and then make some adjustments as he grows. For example. I put in a rolled hem to be let out as he grows taller for shirts...I add about 4" to the length of his current shits. He's been the same chest measurement for atleast a year and a half (he's now nearly 6 1/2 and I've been making clothes for him since he was 4) but he just gets longer. I find that by adding a button or a hook & eye in the back allows me to do a wider chest which allows more leg movement. Also the belt helps. As for arms, I like to do "short sleeves" that way when it's cooler when it's hot out and when it gets colder, I can make fake arms to add in to elongate it for coverage and for his monkey arms. I also like to find fun child appropriate trims online that make it more fun for him. On Etsy, I've found one that has a knight, castle, and a wolf on it.

As for pants, I actually find that using sweat pants in the winter are better for him because they are warmer. The beginning of summer, I add 2"s to his current leg length and 1" to the "seat" and then again, roll the leg hems to hide the unused that is usually let out by the middle of summer. By the end of summer, I just let him wear them as capri's.

To save on the cost fabric, when I order from www.fabrics-store.com for linen, I will buy from the "doggie bags" which are 1/2 - 1 1/2 yards of various color fabric at usually 1/2 price. I'm only now am not able to use a 1/2 yard of their linen to make him a t-tunic. I find the heavier linen works well for pants for him because they don't wear out as fast. In the winter, I have in the past, made him shirts out of flannel for warmth, especially if I know he's gonna be outside and it's gonna be mildly chilly. He has a cloak, but for playing, it's cumbersome.

Amra de Medici

(formerly Amira della Mezzanote)

From: Mame Wood <mame.wood at gmail.com>

Date: October 28, 2011 7:23:42 AM CDT

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} clothing for SCA children

It is also perfectly period to leave large seam allowances which can be let out later. If you use french seams (on materials with no right or wrong side) you can let out the seams and turn them inside out.

Maebdh

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Amra de Medici <renaissanceprincess2 at yahoo.com> wrote:

<<< I find that with Zayn, I make things 2 sizes too big and then make some adjustments as he grows. For example. I put in a rolled hem to be let out as he grows taller for shirts...I add about 4" to the length of his current shits. He's been the same chest measurement for atleast a year and a half (he's now nearly 6 1/2 and I've been making clothes for him since he was 4) but he just gets longer. I find that by adding a button or a hook & eye in the back allows me to do a wider chest which allows more leg movement. Also the belt helps. As for arms, I like to do "short sleeves" that way when it's cooler when it's hot out and when it gets colder, I can make fake arms to add in to elongate it for coverage and for his monkey arms. I also like to find fun child appropriate trims online that make it more fun for him. On Etsy, I've found one that has a knight, castle, and a wolf on it.

Amra de Medici

(formerly Amira della Mezzanote) >>>

From the FB "SCA Garb" group

Starr Corcoran

December 8, 2013 at 9:58am

My granddaughter's first SCA event, and her first garb...Q & D tunic, purposely cut looong. Didn't stop her, but it DID slow her down just a little bit. Mommy says she needs better garb for next event. Gramma's head gonna explode. I'm thinking Tudor with all the lacings so she has grow room (and gramma isn't always sewing just for her *laugh*)

Randi Ann

Adorable! Little ones in garb is probably the cutest sight in the whole world. you did a fantastic job!

Starr Corcoran

I started that at 10 pm Friday and managed to have it finished by midnight! *whew*

Joel Viney

Looks Good. We found that at the Toddler stage, the houppelande was our friend. She was able to wear one from the age of two (long houppelande) to six (short houppelande). It looked good the whole time and saved us from having to make her garb every couple of months.

Britt Meitzler

And just add the bands on the bottom in a contrasting color when she gets taller. Works really well.

Britt Meitzler

We have a theory that that is why the Landsknecht camp followers started the striping at the bottom of the dress. After a bit it just became the fashion

Janelle Griffith

Beautiful! I adore the neckline! Would you be able to direct me to directions on how to do such a neckline? I build nice garb until the neckline, as they are the bane of my garb ! ANY help would be appreciated!

Starr Corcoran

coffee can. measured down 2" in the front and 1 1/2" in the back, then a 2" slit (should have been 1/2" longer, it was a snug fit over her head). Bias tape machine sewn, on the corners I shortened the stitching to .5 1/4" from the turn, and then hand-stitched it down with running stitch.

Or a bowl, whichever will give you the dimension around the head.

Barbara Vezina

Keyhole necks are great for little kids; their heads are so big in comparison to the rest of their bodies. The slit in front lets you get a closer fitting neckline than a round neck would.

Jennifer Parodi Watch out for when she realizes she can pick up her skirts... you'll never catch her again!

Leslie Basinger

For length I have put in pleats and then let it out as they grew - if stitching line is worn add some trim or tinkle weaving and viola New dress