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dolls-msg - 3/6/11

 

Medieval fashion and toy dolls.

 

NOTE: See also these files: Dollhouses-art, dollhouses-msg, toys-msg, child-gam-msg, teething-toys-msg, child-books-msg, baby-gifts-msg, child-wagons-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

 

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

From: Andrea Luxenburg <Edl at mail.albany.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls in period?

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:22:46 -0800

Organization: AlbanyNet - E-mail info at albany.net

 

Deb H. wrote:

> Are dolls period? How were they used?  As just toys? Or, as someone

> suggested to me recently, as a low-cost fashion model? I am specifically

> interested in finding more information about the low-cost fashion model

> dolls.

>

> What are some good sources for me to start reading/looking at?

>

> Kateryn de Develyn

> debh at microware.com

 

Unless little girls have changed out of all recognition, yes, there were

dolls in period.  I have seen pictures of jointed clay dolls from Roman

times, and recall references to wooden and rag dolls, as well as dolls

stuffed with straw.  Unfortunately, I can't recall where.  I'm sure there

were also dolls of the sort little girls still make for themselves out of

nuts and sticks and flower petals, as well as the scraps of cloth tied

together.  In fact, I saw a picture of an old-fashioned bed wrench

(that's with an "r"), used to tighten the ropes on a bed, which looked

like a clothespin with a dowel through it at right angle to the length of

the "clothespin".  The whole thing looked so like a little person - head,

body, two legs and outstretched arms- if some didn't end up wrapped in a

piece of cloth and played with endlessly, I don't know little girls like

I think I do.

 

I suspect, though, that you are talking of dolls made on purpose by

adults.  I'd be interested to know what you find.

 

Gwen Goosefoot

 

 

From: "L. Herr-Gelatt" <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls in period?

Date: 21 Nov 1996 01:38:39 GMT

Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

 

A few Pennsics ago I attended a class taught by Mistress Alizoun (Hope I

haven't mangled that too much), who hailed from somewhere in New England.

She taught quite a class. I'd venture that she would be the expert here

(or one of many?).

 

As I recall, the fashion-plate dolls were discovered because a seamstress

used broken ones as bobbins to wind thread on (broken arms and all). The

family preserved the thread samples, never dreaming of the dolls

underneath. They were unwound in this century and found to be real

historic "barbies". Unfortunately, they were not children's toys, at

least until they were useless to adults. And why would adults play with

dolls, you impatiently ask? They were used to ship samples of the latest

fahsions to remoter parts of the world. Thus, even during times of war,

the latest french fashions in gowns made it across the english channel,

no doubt smuggled by emisaries and the like. Or so I learned at the class

during Pennsic.

 

I also learned: Other dolls---stick dolls with wire or cloth hands, and

wooden bead heads were popular throughout europe. So were cloth dolls,

stuffed, which date back to the ancient egyptians. Add to that list rock

dolls (yes I'm serious) no doubt invented by some penniless mother who

had a hankie and a rock, and tied the corners together to make arms and

legs. A wonderful lady made one of these for my two-year old just

recently (stuffing instead of rock). It really is a cute and viable and

quick/cheap idea. Good project for children. Aparantly, these have been

found in the abandoned campsites of armies who fought many of the great

wars of europe. I suppose many camp followers were children, esp. when

the wars lasted many many years.

 

Add to the list wooden, lead, and tin soldiers, block dolls (painted

figure or glued paper figure on a block of wood). Here my memory deserts

me.

 

Hope that helped. The good Mistress mentioned above is an excellent

teacher and a font of knowledge. I wish I could give you her her

information, but I don't have a clue. Sorry!

 

Lady Aoife Finn, Mommy of three little terrors (who are very nice girls

......... when they're asleep).

 

 

From: Tireachan <alphafem at cyberhighway.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls in period?

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:04:43 -0700

 

> In article <32923C68.41C67EA6 at microware.com> debh at microware.com

> writes:

>

> >Are dolls period?

 

Missed your first post, but yes they are period.

 

> >How were they used?

 

I won't pretend to know about toy dolls, but Janet Arnold's Queen

Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd shows "fashion dolls" that were sent

between countries to show the fashions of the era.  Really a brilliant

way of carrying fashion from one court to another.  Wish I could tell

you more, but my husband won't let me have my Christmas present early

<harumph> and so I can't open the book to tell you more.  Anyone else

have a copy that they could look this information up in? I would bet,

though, that these ended up as toys after the tailors were through with

them.

 

Tireachan

 

 

From: woofie at Capital.NET (Susan Evans)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period dolls

Date: 21 Nov 1996 02:07:26 -0500

 

I have seen an engraving of a period doll seller. Unfortunately the

book's in storage.  It was in the early 1600's as I recall.  You might

also try the Strong Museum in Rochester, NY and Doll Reader magazine as a

starting point.  Doll Reader has had articles on fashion dolls.  Perhaps

your local library can get the index and articles on microfilm?

Shoshonnah

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: Michael Corman <cormam at pfizer.com>

Subject: Re: Dolls in period?

Organization: Pfizer, Inc

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:43:36 GMT

 

I'm afraid I don't actually have the literature handy, but at the Tower

in London I saw "dolls" wearing armor about 18 inches tall as I

remember, that were, according to the labels, used as demonstrations of

the latest armor styles for those nobles who would like to commission

pieces from the armorer. This might actually be a place to start,

especially for the "low-cost fashion model" line of research.

 

Mike Corman

cormam at pfizer.com

 

 

From: savaskan at electriciti.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls in period?

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 12:15:37 PDT

Organization: Cubic Corporation

 

> Are dolls period? How were they used?  As just toys? Or, as someone

> suggested to me recently, as a low-cost fashion model? I am specifically

> interested in finding more information about the low-cost fashion model

> dolls.

 

They are believed to be used as fashion models as well as toys during the 16th

century. There are several portraits of children with dolls which are thought

to be actually "fashion model" hand me downs..  "Mama's dress is done, here's

a new dolly dear"...

 

> What are some good sources for me to start reading/looking at?

 

Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd - Janet Arnold

Various German Woodcuts

 

Mistress Julianna

 

 

From: woofie at Capital.NET (Susan Evans)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls - book

Date: 22 Nov 1996 22:37:16 -0500

 

  Try to find a copy of "The Collector's History of Dolls" by Constance E.

King, 1977, Bonanza Books, ISBN 0-517-34801-2. There are chapters on

dolls from the Far East (ancient) as well as a chapter on Medieval and

Renaissance dolls.  There are some pictures.  If there's a specific time

period you're interested in, please write me directly and I'll glean out

some facts for you.  I usually just skim over the headings on the digest

and probably miss postings.

 

Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys, OL

 

 

From: cromabu at aol.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls in period?

Date: 23 Nov 1996 09:27:04 GMT

 

Dolls were used as toys in period. There are many examples in art of both

girls & boys shown holding dolls of all kinds, some very elaborately

dressed. In the latter periods it seems that little girls were quite often

pictured with their dolls dressed in the same out fits as their own. The

practice of traveling salesmen carring fashion dolls to sell their goods

was started by a designer by the name of worth (I belive), in the mid to

late 1800, & not in the middle ages.A good book to start your search with

is History of Children's Costume by Elizabeth Ewing plub. by Scribnre's,

ISBN 0-684-15357-2. You can also find many books in the library on dolls,

doll making, as well as doll history. It is my experance that the history

of dolls is best a sideline in the first 2 more than a subject all by it's

self. Some costumeing books also deal with this subject.

   Hope this helps!

                                             Lady Cate

 

 

From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls In Period

Date: 23 Nov 1996 23:44:45 GMT

Organization: University at Buffalo

 

        I have a copy of a woodcut of Maximillian I playing with little

dolls of jousting knights on wheeled horses... the first "action figures"!

 

                        --Tristan

 

 

From: ruthless at mis.ca (ruthless)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls In Period

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 21:38:00 GMT

Organization: MIS Saint John

 

v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN) wrote:

 

>    I have a copy of a woodcut of Maximillian I playing with little

> dolls of jousting knights on wheeled horses... the first "action figures"!

 

>                       --Tristan

 

        There is a restored working set of these jousting knight dolls in the

Bethnel Green museum in London if you are interested.

 

        Achsa

 

 

From: ruthless at mis.ca (ruthless)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls in period?

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 21:31:35 GMT

Organization: MIS Saint John

 

In article <32923C68.41C67EA6 at microware.com>,

   "Deb H." <debh at microware.com> wrote:

Are dolls period? How were they used?  As just toys? Or, as someone

suggested to me recently, as a low-cost fashion model? I am specifically

interested in finding more information about the low-cost fashion model

dolls.

 

        Nope, dolls are NOT period. The word for the child's plaything was

"baby" The word Doll comes from the diminutive for the name Dorothy (As in

Shakespeare's Doll Tearsheet) Calling a doll a doll was a slightly post period

advertising gimmic that caught on, like the word kleenex.

        There was a German industry in carving wooden babies that is quite

period. I've seen a woodcut showing a man carving them. They were especially

sold in England on St Bartholemew's day, thus the term "Bartholemew baby" used

if you had to make a distinction between the live baby and its doll.

Proportions of these babies were more adult than babish but they were sold

with the intention of being mothered by children. In Breugal's children's

Gavmes some of the doll furniture is also shown.

        Doll's were common cheap trade items. Sir Raleigh carried trade goods

to the Americas including beads and metal knives and babies and some of these

babies were apparently presented to some little Native-North-American girls in

Virginia.

        I understand that the Spanish Queen Isabelle send a complete set of

babies in copies of her wedding party's clothes to one of her relatives but I

don't remember which Queen Isabelle.

 

        I hope this info is of use.

        Achsa (Ruthless at mis.ca)

 

 

From: eddval at aol.com (EDDVAL)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Animals ..and Barbies

Date: 4 May 1997 14:59:30 GMT

 

For dolls in period dress check out:

http://members.aol.com/JoNans/index.html

http://members.aol.com/JoNans/doll.index.html

 

My wife just did the  OSU ren fest. I now understand why so many people

were taking pictures of the dolls. It would be interesting to know if any of her designs show up for the contest.

 

 

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:31:45 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Toys

 

There's also a section of toys in _Wooden Artefacts from Medieval

Novogrod_, including hobby horses, tops (made with a depression on top,

not a spindle), toy swords, dolls, etc.

 

> Does anyone know how far back dolls were made (i.e. ceramic/porceline type)?

> Is it medival at all?

 

From the Medieval Novogrod book the things identified as dolls were people

shapes cut out of flat planks and dressed. (This is all archealogical

stuff. They had a number of carved figures in the book too, but those were

identified as 'household spirits'.)

 

I'll post a fuller report on the book as soon as I get it back from my

friend Kat'ryina, who schwicked it almost as soon as I'd ILL'ed it!

 

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental), mka Jennifer Heise

jenne at tulgey.browser.net

 

 

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:54:04 PDT

From: "pat fee" <lcatherinemc at hotmail.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Toys

 

According to the research I have been doing there were "baked" clay

dolls ar early as the 11th century.  These were baptismal presents.

There were Italian religous figures in the 14-15 century made from

clay, wood, a "bakers clay"  and a cookie like dough that was meant to

be eaten. These were dressed(wraped in cloth) or undressed, depending

on who the doll was supposed to be or the material from which it was

made.

 

Morganuse de Berre

 

 

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:15:03 -0700

From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: bakers clay, was: Toys

 

> There were Italian regilous figuars in the 14-15 century made from

> clay, wood, a "bakers clay"  and a cookie like dough that was ment to

> be eaten. These were dressed(wraped in cloth) or undressed, depending

> on who the doll was suposs to be. or the material grom which it was

> made.

> Morganuse de Berre

 

I don't know what was used in period, but the "bakers' clay" I am familiar

with is simply flour, salt and water.  When baked, it is as hard as a

rock but not particulary good for eating.

--

Edwin

 

 

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:57:22 EDT

From: <HBSJAM at aol.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: bakers clay

 

I found a good recipe for it on cookierecipe.com...

 

Baker's Clay Submitted by: Johanna

 

This is a NON-EDIBLE cookie recipe that makes lovely ornaments to hang on

your Christmas Tree.

 

Ingredients:  4 cups all-purpose flour

              1 cup salt

              1 1/2 cups water

Directions: Preheat oven to 350 degrees F (175 degrees C). Mix the

flour, salt and water. Knead dough until smooth. Roll out dough and cut into=20

desired shapes. Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) for 1 hour. Once cool=20

paint with colors, if desired. Makes 5 cups of dough

 

Marged Montague

 

 

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:33:55 -0700

From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: bakers clay and beer

 

HBSJAM at aol.com wrote: snipped

> Ingredients:     4 cups all-purpose flour

>                       1 cup salt

>                       1 1/2 cups water

>  Marged Montague

 

This 4:1 sounds right.  For figurines, we sometimes had to

bake the clay twice.  Baking once, even for a long time, doesn't

seem to always dry it all the way through.

 

I understand that ancient barley hard-tack cakes were double

baked for the same reason.  The barley cakes were also used as

a starter for beer, if I understand rightly.

--

Edwin

 

 

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:39:08 -0600 (CST)

From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] handwashing at feasts

 

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Mercy Neumark wrote:

> There is a pitcher-like vessel called an aquamanile (I've also seen it

> spelled as Aquamantle) which is normally either bronze or ceramic, that is

> sculpted into an animal or I've seen as my pottery Laurel Master Hroar

> Stormgengr has made, Knights on horseback. These are primarily used in

> handwashing and I have a few period pictures of bronze ones, if you all are

> interested in looking at them.  I plan on making one this year sometime, on

> top of all the other projects.  Heh.  Well, at least I'm busy.

 

Ah, yes. There's a (I *think*) 14th century brass one which is supposed to

be Xanthippe sitting on the back of Socrates, in the book _The Medieval

Art of Love. Amongst my books I have pictures of a griffon, a lion,

several knights on horseback, the aforementioned Socrates/Xanthippe, and a

rooster, one or two of which I think are actually pottery.

 

A couple of years ago I commissioned the aforementioned pottery Laurel to

make one for the gentleman who is my love and inspiration. It's a

hedgehog, in a 13th century style. There are pictures, somewhere. If he

ever finds them again I'm supposed to send some to Hroar. It's a very cute

hedgehog.

 

Margaret

 

 

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:14:12 -0800 (PST)

From: Karen <karen_larsdatter at yahoo.com>

Subject: [SCA-AS] Re: Another question about stuffed dolls/animals

To: artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org

 

Jadwiga asked:

<<< Anyone have any info about stuffed dolls or stuffed animal toys in

period? >>>

 

There's a Roman doll at the British Museum -- linen, stuffed with rags

and papyrus -- use the Compass webpage at

http://www.british-museum.ac.uk/compass/index.html to search for it.

(GR 1905.10-21.13)

 

I have some information about animal-shaped playthings, if that's

helpful -- ceramic, wooden, etc. -- they're linked from

http://geocities.com/karen_larsdatter/toys.htm

 

Karen

 

 

To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Coptic cloth doll?

Posted by: "Lilinah" lilinah at earthlink.net   urtatim_alqurtubiyya

Date: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:50 pm (PDT)

 

Some years ago i found a photo on the web of a cloth doll from Late

Antique period Egypt, more commonly (if erroneously) called the

"Coptic" period.

 

The doll was made of plain linen, no colors, no embroidery, no wool,

no silk, a little lopsided, somewhat worn and dirty. Unfortunately i

lost a lot of data in a fatal hard drive crash. And this picture was

among the lost.

 

I wonder if anyone has seen something like it. I am not interested in

dolls made of fragments of brightly colored, tapestry woven wool.

This was unadorned linen with no facial features, no garments - head,

body, 2 arms, 2 legs - quite simple.

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

 

 

To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Coptic cloth doll?

Posted by: "Ann Catelli" elvestoorder at yahoo.com   elvestoorder

Date: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:12 pm (PDT)

 

She was found at the cemetary at Oxrhynchus, and is now on display in the British Museum.

 

The side you see in the pictures has no face because it is the back of the doll; half the face was destroyed at some point between 1800 years ago and now.

 

<http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/rag_doll.aspx>;

 

I'm betting this is the doll you are thinking of. :)

 

Ann in CT

doll enthusiast

 

 

To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Coptic cloth doll?

Posted by: "Heather Rose Jones" heather.jones at earthlink.net   heather_rose_jones

Date: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:52 pm (PDT)

 

On Sep 12, 2008, at 5:50 PM, Lilinah wrote:

> Some years ago i found a photo on the web of a cloth doll from Late

> Antique period Egypt, more commonly (if erroneously) called the

> "Coptic" period.

> The doll was made of plain linen, no colors, no embroidery, no wool,

> no silk, a little lopsided, somewhat worn and dirty. Unfortunately i

> lost a lot of data in a fatal hard drive crash. And this picture was

> among the lost.

> I wonder if anyone has seen something like it. I am not interested in

> dolls made of fragments of brightly colored, tapestry woven wool.

> This was unadorned linen with no facial features, no garments - head,

> body, 2 arms, 2 legs - quite simple.

 

There's a doll shown on p. 150 of:

 

Connolly, Peter & Hazel Dodge. 1998. The Ancient City: Life in

Classical Athens & Rome. Oxford University Press, Oxford. ISBN

0-19-917242-0

 

that is similar to your description. Despite the book's title, this

specific item was found at Oxyrhynchus -- a specific date isn't

given, although the context implies it may be earlier than the one

you're trying to find.

 

Tangwystyl

 

 

From: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Coptic cloth doll?

Posted by: "Karen" karen_larsdatter at yahoo.com   Karen_Larsdatter

Date: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:45 pm (PDT)

 

There are several Coptic cloth dolls, actually -- see http://larsdatter.com/toys.htm#dolls for the ones I've found online.

 

Karen

 

 

From: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Coptic cloth doll?

Posted by: "quokkaqueen" quokkaqueen at hotmail.com   quokkaqueen

Date: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:13 pm (PDT)

 

The links to the Benaki Museum dolls are broken, try:

http://www.benaki.gr/index.asp?id=10104&;lang=en

 

and then clicking on the 'Online Search through the Museum

Documentation and Management System' link

 

~Asfridhr

--- In Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com, Karen <karen_larsdatter at ...> wrote:

> There are several Coptic cloth dolls, actually -- see

http://larsdatter.com/toys.htm#dolls for the ones I've found online.

>

> Karen

 

 

From: Alexandria Doyle <garbaholic at gmail.com>

Date: April 14, 2009 5:08:37 PM CDT

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Puppets in Period

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Regan Caimbeul <regan.caimbeul at gmail.com> wrote:

<<< I was wondering if anyone has information regarding puppets in period: what

kinds of puppets were used, how to make them, sample shows, or other

introduction-like stuff (yes, that's a technical term).

 

Rachel >>>

 

I think that the place to start is with  DOLLS AND PUPPETS  by MAX VON

BOEHM.  This is the work that most modern doll historians go to as

their source for dolls, and the second half of this book is about

various puppets.

 

There's also somewhere an inventory of the things that Mary Stuart

brought back with her to Scotland that included a set of marionette

dolls that she and her ladies are reported to have dressed and

redressed as they pleased.  This is not a source I now have to hand as

I think it was someone else's book webbed perhaps for a limited time,

but I'm sure that a little searching would turn it up.

 

Some books do lump dolls and puppets together, (but in our period they

seemed to be two very different things) so looking at some of the doll

histories might get you started.  If you'd like, I can look at the

library at home and see if there's more puppet related stuff mixed in

with the doll stuff

 

alex

 

<the end>



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Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org