Home Page

Stefan's Florilegium

toys-msg



This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

toys-msg - 1/22/11

 

Period and SCA toys.

 

NOTE: See also the files: dolls-msg, child-gam-msg, child-gam-msg, teething-toys-msg, children-msg, babies-msg, Toys-in-th-MA-art, dollhouses-msg, chd-actvites-msg, 2-Hobbyhorses-art.

 

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

From: Maryanne.Bartlett at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Maryanne Bartlett)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: kids/dolls/toys

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1994 03:30:00 PDT

Organization: The Overworked Dragon BBS (503)256-8451 PDX

 

   I'm hunting for pictures/photos/locations/books on period kids' toys.

I've run across a *lot* of tertiary sources, some of which seem to be

really unreliable, but very little of primary or secondary source

material. Can anybody out there help? Even hints of books or museums that

have this kind of stuff would be helpful! Just so you know, I have seen:

 

the Brueghel pictures of all kinds of kids and toys

all kinds of games, both board and dice

the late period portraits of Arbella Stuart,

   Edward VI as a baby,

   James VI's children,

and been told of several interesting ones that I haven't yet found photos

of, such as the one where a child is holding what appears to be a

mechanical bird.

 

   I am indeed looking for pre-period things as well, and have

considered the Pompeii finds (although I've no line on good books, anybody?)

I am particularly interested in a rumoured Egyptian marble game, (polished

stones and small pillars,(for "marble arch"?) found wrapped in a small

girl's mummy. Anybody know where this one is?

 

   If anybody can track down the references in Ovid to games, I would be

extremely grateful, as I've had no luck. Supposedly there are marble-type

games described, played with nuts and a variation on "Buck she" that

begins "bucca, bucca, quo sunt hic!"

 

   (Hey, are dominos period?)

 

   All you Norse out there, anybody have any of this info on toy

boats? Again, I've heard rumours, but...

 

   Has anybody seen references to children playing with blocks? I could

swear I have, but haven't been able to track 'em down.

 

   Of course, dolls! Anything? Arbella Stewart is holding a doll, but

what was it made of? Richard II's (?) wife was a child, so several were

ordered? (I keep seeing references to this one in books, but they never

give any documentation!) There is a terra cotta jointed doll described as

being Greek but when/where/how can I find out about it? How about wax

doll/religious figures like the Infant of Prague (not a toy, obviously, but

was the technique used on playthings?)

 

   In other words, this search is far-ranging. Anything that you could

give me in the way of sources, references and locations would be much

appreciated. Yes, I'm planning to write it up, and yes, I will give credit

to all who help!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

In Service to the Dream,

Anja Snihova'

 

 

From: Maryanne Bartlett (6/8/94)

To: markh at sphinx

RE>kids/dolls/toys

 

Uu> I'll look and see what I may have found previously. I would appreciate

Uu> seeing any replys that you get with referances. Thanks for the works

Uu> that you did cite.

 

   I'll post you a bit more when I've time, but there are several

pictures in "The History of Children's Costume", Ewing (don't remember the

first name!)

 

In a rush,

 

--Anja Snihova'--

--

uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!180!1414!14!Maryanne.Bartlett

Internet: Maryanne.Bartlett at f14.n1414.z180.fidonet.org

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: kids/dolls/toys

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)

Date: 10 Jun 94 11:26:53

Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

 

>    All you Norse out there, anybody have any of this info on toy

>boats? Again, I've heard rumours, but...

 

I've tried to reply via regular email and I don't seem to be getting

through, though Maryanne can write to me. the ways of email are

various and strange. Anyway I shall see if I can get a message as far

as the Rialto forgive the waste of bandwidth, hopefully someone else

might be interested in this info anyway.

 

Maryanne asked me for the British Museum's address, it's

The British Museum, Great Russel Street, London, WC1B 3DG

Their 'phone number is 071 636 1555 (from the USA you'll have to

delete the first 0 and put your international access code followed by

44 to get the U.K.)

 

Anyway here's a couple of references for the books with toy boats in,

I've got more info on other viking toys and games, if you're

reading this Maryanne perhaps you'd like to send me your snail mail

address and I'll try posting you the rest since our email connection

only seems to work one way at the moment.

**************************************************************

Title: Viking Age Decorated Wood

Author: James T. Lang

Publishers: Royal Irish Academy

Copyright: Royal Irish Academy 1988

ISBN 0 901714 68 2 hardback

   0 901714 69 0 paperback

 

Page 33 fig 51 Toy wooden sword

   "form reflects known viking-age sword types"

Page 34 fig 54 Toy wooden horse

   rather crudely made, and it's lost it's front legs. Someone's carved

   crude doodles into its sides.

Page 80 fig 94 Toy ship

   "mid eleventh century" this has an elegant shape recognisably similar

   to excavated viking ship hulls.

 

This is a great book if you're interested in Viking age carved wood,

there's lots of other stuff in it besides the toys: spinning and

weaving tools, bits of furniture and crosses, writing tablets, boxes,

stoppers etc. etc.

 

***********************************************

 

Title: Viking Artefacts

Author: James Graham-Campbell

Publishers: British Museum Publications Ltd

Copyright: 1980 The trustees of the British Museum

ISBN: 0 7141 1354 9

 

"92 Wooden Gaming Board

Balinderry, Co. Westmeath Ireland"...

"Rectangular gaming board carved from yew, with two projecting heads (one

human and one animal); the raised border is ornamented with eight panels

of interlace- and-fret-patterns. The playing surface is marked out with

a grid of forty nine peg holes (7x7). the central hole is surrounded by

a pair of concentric circles; the hole in each corner by an arc."

 

Probably a hnefltafl board. It has a carved gead sticking out from

the board at each end. the general opinion seems to be that this is

a travel board (possibly for use on ship?) and that these heads were

handles for the players to hold. The central panel of ornament on each

side is sunken suggesting that the board had a lid at some time which

was held in place by these sunken parts.

 

"93 Dice"...

"Three oblong dice of walrus tusk (?). All have the same arrangement of

ring-and-dot 'spots': 'one' on both ends (no 'two'); 'three' opposite

'four' and 'five' opposite 'six' on the sides. L 3.2;W 2.8x 2.5 cm."

 

These are some of the wierd dice I told you about.

 

94-101 are various playing pieces in Bone, Bronze, Ivory, Jet, Amber and

glass.

 

"104 Wooden model boat

Hedeby, Schleswig Holstein"...

Model boat carved from a single piece of wood, but now in fragments and

much damaged except for one end, consisting of a high squared stem

projecting beneath the curved lines of the hull. surviving L 30cm.

The squared stem of this toy boat, although not found on a Viking Period

Ship to date, is cxlosely paralleled by the prow of the ship incised on

the Loddekopinge whetstone [281]. there is another boat from hedeby (also

fragmentary) with a more conventional prow (Jamkuhn 1936 fig. 15). Viking

Period and medieval Toy boats are known also from Dublin [105], the faroes

and Greenland. miniature vanes, such as 285 may have been metal fittings

for mode; boats, as may also have been the dragon head produced in the

mould from Birka 'Black Earth' [443]."

 

(Numbers mostly refer to other exhibits in the catalogue.)

 

"105 Wooden Model boat

Dublin, Ireland"

"Model Boat carved from a single piece of wood, but damaged with one end

missing. the curved stem projects above the broad and shallow hull, which

has a pronounced keel. the stub of the mast survives, stepped centrally;

there is a hole through the gunwale on either side for stays, and another

pair of holes at the surviving end of the boat for further stays.

Surviving L 11.0; W 4.1 cm."

 

"106 model Duck

Birka, Uppland Sweden"

"Profile of a duck carved from elk antler. there is a vertical perforation

through its back. L(Body) 13.2; T 2.1 cm.

>From the 'black Earth'. Presumably a toy or mascot(attached to a stick?)

as, for instance, the toy horses of wood from Kvivik in the Faroes.

date E/MVP."

 

"107 model cat

Birka, Uppland Sweden"

"Profile of a cat carved from amber. L 3.0; T 1.0cm.

from the 'Black Earth'. Presumably a toy (as 106), although, being of

amber, it might possibly have been a talisman."

"Date E/MVP"

 

If you have a viking persona and you haven't seen this book try and

find it somewhere, It doesn't have a lot on costume, but all the other

bits and pieces are there from jewellery to ironing boards!

Each piece in teh catalogue is photographed and described with

references to further publications describing the piece.

*************************************

 

Jennifer/Rannveik

 

Vanaheim Vikings

 

email: J.A.Bray at bnr.co.uk

Warning: this email address will be disabled after June 14th when I

am moving jobs. Do not reply to this address after that date.

 

 

From: Raven <JSINGLE at MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: RE: Toys?

Date: 26 JUL 94 08:01:57 EST

Organization: Milwaukee Area Technical College

 

b.woods6 at genie.geis.COM writes:

 

>     I would be very grateful if anyone would suggest sources I can

>use in making period toys (wood or metal--does not matter).

 

I have no books to recommend, just a few general ideas for toys:

                                       ___

Tops (the kind that spin).  ---->       | |

                                       | |  <-- cylinder (for string)

Hoop-and-stick.                      ___| |___

                                    \       / <-- cone

Dolls / poppets.                      \     /

                                      \   /

Gameboards (9-man morris thru chess).   \_/

 

And -- I don't know if this is period, but it'd be educational & fun --

wooden construction blocks suitable for building castles, cathedrals,...

depending on how ambitious you are, this could range from smooth

geometric shapes that vaguely suggest arches etc., to full building

components (barbican, keep) freely rearrangeable by the child.

 

"Raven"    (JSingle at Music.Lib.MATC.Edu)    Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com (Jason Magnus)

Subject: Re: Toys?

Organization: The Polyhedron Group

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 18:36:14 GMT

 

In article <199407260431.AA200677083 at relay2.geis.com>,

b.woods6 at genie.geis.COM wrote:

 

>      I would be very grateful if anyone would suggest sources I can

> use in making period toys (wood or metal--does not matter).

>

>      There were children in period, and there were doting parents in

> period, so there *must* have been toys.  Please, I would like to make

> some things to play with.  ;-)

>

>      Hmm...could the fact that I have a year-old niece who will be

> growing up all too fast have anything to do with this request?

> Surely not...  ;-)

 

There's a variety of period board games for older kids - stuff like

nine-man-morris goes well.

 

For younger kids, one really neat idea I saw a while back was a wooden

knight and horse, with a stick attached to the horse. Kids could hold

'jousts' with them. Another was a horse and rider mounted over a board, and

when you tapped the board, the horse 'galloped'.

 

For really little kids, wooden rattles filled with dried beans are nice.

 

===========================

PLANS FOR A TOY FOLLOW

===========================

 

The favorite toy that I make for younger kids is the 'climbing bear'. It

can actually be done as a Knight, a Lady, a Lord, or any other four-limbed

anthropomorphic shape that can be represented in sort of a 'gingerbread

man' flat form. I rather like the bear, for some strange reason <grin> (see

the name of my shop, below). I'm fairly certain this is a period toy idea.

 

The climbing bear is a flat wooden doll that climbs a pair of cords. At the

top of the cords there is a stick with a hanging loop in it's middle. The

cord from this loop is several inches long. The loop is attached to a tree

branch, rafter, or other high point, anywhere from a few feet up to 20 feet

or more. The long cords hang from each end of the stick, go through holes

in the doll's hands, and end in a large wooden bead to keep the doll from

slipping off of the cords. They should be long enough to reach the floor.

The holes in the dolls hands angle inward, toward their head. This is

important! Without that angle, the doll won't climb. I usually make the

angle such that for an inch-diameter hand/paw, the top of the hole is 1/4

inch closer to the centerline than the bottom of the hole. The climbing

cord should slide freely through the hole. For cord, I use a cotton mason's

twine. It's easy on kids hands, and seems to work well.

 

An option is to hang a 'prize' or goal at the top, below the center of the

toggle stick. For a bear, the goal is usually a bee hive or honey pot. For

a lord or lady, it could be a crown, a gem, or a hat. Make it whatever you

like, so long as it's something the doll might want to climb to get to!

 

To make the doll, design a pattern that places the figure standing, like a

gingerbread man cookie, with legs slightly spread and arms to the sides or

raised upwards at a 30 degree to 45 degree angle. Size is relative. I

wouldn't make it too large, 'cause the toy slides down the cords when it's

done climbing. You wouldn't want to bonk the child on the head with

something heavy! I make mine about 6 inches tall head to toes, and 4 inches

wide at the outstreached arm tips. Trace the pattern onto a 3/4 inch thick

hardwood board, cut it out, and decorate it as your skills allow. Assemble

it as follows:

 

      O <--------- Hanging loop

      |

______|______

|_X____X____X_| <-- Toggle stick (string tied/glued at the 'X')

  |    |    |

  |   GGG <-|------ A 'Prize' or goal (optional)

  |         |

  | O___O  | <---- Climbing cords (each side, actually much longer)

  | (o o)  |

  | ( u )  |

_|___| |___|_

|/___     ___\| <-- Cord passing through hole in paw/hand (slip fit)

| (     )  |

| (     ) <|----- The climbing bear / doll

| (  _  )  |

| / / \ \  |

| /_/   \_\ |

|          |

|          |

|          |

|          |

|          |

B          B <--- Bead at end of cords (each side)

 

 

Well, hopefully my ASCII Picture gives you the idea.

 

To make the bear climb, hold both cords so the strings are tight and the

toggle stick is level. The doll starts with its hands/paws resting on your

hands, or you can hold both cords tight in one hand and slip the doll a bit

up the line with the other hand.

 

Pull the cord in your right hand. The string through the doll's right paw

will straighten out, lifting it's other paw. Draw the slack through that

paw, and then pull on the other cord. As you do this, maintain just enough

tension on each line so the doll moves smoothly. repeat, alternately

pulling on each cord. With a little practice, you can make the doll climb.

If you release the tension on the cords, the doll slides back down. If you

hold tension, it stops sliding.

 

For very small kids, an adult or older child runs the toy for the babe's

amusement. As the child gets more coordination, they will learn to make it

climb. It's a popular toy with children of all ages.

 

--

Regards, Jay Brandt --- Austin, Texas, USA --- <rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com>

In the SCA, HLS Jason of Rosaria, JdL, GdS, AoA --------- (Member # 3016)

Owner / Designer / Craftsman ------------------------- Bear Paw Woodworks

 

 

From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Toys?

Date: 28 Jul 1994 09:28:04 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

There's a 1560 painting by Pieter Brueghel the Elder which shows all kinds

of recognizable games, and some involve equipment--tops, knuckle bones,

hoops, a couple of different propeller toys (one to pull a string and have

it fly up, one on a stick, like a windmill, so that if the child runs

along it will turn in the wind (like a pinwheel, but only two vanes, and

the stick mounted straight on and held horizontally, rather than

perpendicular as our modern pinwheels).  There are stilts, balls, baskets,

a sack of something hanging from a stick (you'd have to see the picture to

appreciate this one).  They're playing with brooms (as horses, balancing

them on their fingers), there's a fancy stick horse with reins,  dolls

(doll furniture is shown), masks, caps, blindfolds, they're tumbling and

doing handstands, swimming, climbing trees, playing on a pile of dirt

(king of the mountain), they're playing leap frog, buck-buck, they've

dressed one little girl like a queen and are having a processional with

smaller girls throwing petals from a basket out front...  There's lots

more. It's worth trying to buy a large print of this painting if you're

intending to pursue this seriously.

 

My print says "Kunsthistoriches Museum, Wien" which I take to mean that's

where the painting is.  Can anyone verify this?  

 

As to copies, I ordered mine from a frame shop specializing in

African-American art in Albuquerque, which must mean it's not all that

hard to get.

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: orbons at fys.ruu.nl (Bart Orbons)

Subject: Re: Toys?

Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands

Date: 28 Jul 94 14:37:47 GMT

 

<I missed the posting where AElflead is responding to, but let me

elaborate on basis of her posting>

In <318bp4$kj1 at search01.news.aol.com> sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd) writes:

>There's a 1560 painting by Pieter Brueghel the Elder which shows all kinds

>of recognizable games, and some involve equipment--tops, knuckle bones,

[Lots of deletia...]

Aelflead, I don't know which Painting you are talking about, but there are

a LOT of paintings by pieter Brueghel the elder (and the rest of his

family) with village life on it. A lot of these painting display playing

childeren... They are absolutely worth looking at, if you want to dig

into the medieval toys and games.

Here in the Netherlands a lot of books with reprints are available, also

for fairly reasonable prices.

I am no certain, But I have allways been told that the largest brueghel

collection can be found in "l' Musee des Beaux Arts" in brussels.. I

have seen that collection, and a lot of Brueghels are hanging there...

(But it is a mix of B. the elder and his sons).

 

>My print says "Kunsthistoriches Museum, Wien" which I take to mean that's

>where the painting is.  Can anyone verify this?  

 

Can you give the name of the painting.. That makes finding out where the

painting can be found easier...

 

Well.. I hope this will put you on a track that might help you further

in finding medieval toys...

 

                              Bertrik van Triecht

--

drs. B. Orbons, Warande 193, 3705 ZP Zeist, The Netherlands

orbons at fys.ruu.nl

 

 

From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Toys?

Date: Sat, 30 Jul 94 18:00:33 EDT

Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

 

sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd) writes:

 

> There's a 1560 painting by Pieter Brueghel the Elder which shows all kinds

> of recognizable games, and some involve equipment--tops, knuckle bones,

> hoops, a couple of different propeller toys (one to pull a string and have

> it fly up, one on a stick, like a windmill, so that if the child runs

> along it will turn in the wind (like a pinwheel, but only two vanes, and

> the stick mounted straight on and held horizontally, rather than

> perpendicular as our modern pinwheels).  There are stilts, balls, baskets,

> a sack of something hanging from a stick (you'd have to see the picture to

> appreciate this one).  They're playing with brooms (as horses, balancing

> them on their fingers), there's a fancy stick horse with reins,  dolls

> (doll furniture is shown), masks, caps, blindfolds, they're tumbling and

> doing handstands, swimming, climbing trees, playing on a pile of dirt

> (king of the mountain), they're playing leap frog, buck-buck, they've

> dressed one little girl like a queen and are having a processional with

> smaller girls throwing petals from a basket out front...  There's lots

> more.  It's worth trying to buy a large print of this painting if you're

> intending to pursue this seriously.

>

> My print says "Kunsthistoriches Museum, Wien" which I take to mean that's

> where the painting is.  Can anyone verify this?  

>

> As to copies, I ordered mine from a frame shop specializing in

> African-American art in Albuquerque, which must mean it's not all that

> hard to get.

>

 

Megan here...this is an excellent source for toys...Claus has modeled a

number of his toys after this one. The propeller thing he calls "DaVinci

Devices" they are common here in New England, where they are called

"Whirleygigs". YOu hold them between the outstretched palms of your hands

( like you're praying) and spin the device, letting go. If you do it the

right direction it flies up 10-20 feet, if you do it wrong, it hits you

hard on the knuckles.

 

Oh, good God, I sincerely hope this doesn't spawn another heliocopter in

period times discussion....

Megan the keyless.

 

==

In 1994: Linda Anfuso       non moritur cujus fama vivat

In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  

In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

 

                               YYY     YYY

meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |

                               |____n____|

 

 

 

From: ercil at astrid.UUCP (none)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re:  Toys?

Date: 31 Jul 94 23:38:03 PST

Organization: Private Node

 

In article <318bp4$kj1 at search01.news.aol.com> sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd) writes:

>There's a 1560 painting by Pieter Brueghel the Elder which shows all kinds

>of recognizable games, and some involve equipment--tops, knuckle bones,

>hoops, a couple of different propeller toys (one to pull a string and have

>it fly up, one on a stick, like a windmill, so that if the child runs

>along it will turn in the wind (like a pinwheel, but only two vanes, and

>the stick mounted straight on and held horizontally, rather than

>perpendicular as our modern pinwheels).  There are stilts, balls, baskets,

>a sack of something hanging from a stick (you'd have to see the picture to

>appreciate this one).  They're playing with brooms (as horses, balancing

>them on their fingers), there's a fancy stick horse with reins,  dolls

>(doll furniture is shown), masks, caps, blindfolds, they're tumbling and

>doing handstands, swimming, climbing trees, playing on a pile of dirt

>(king of the mountain), they're playing leap frog, buck-buck, they've

>dressed one little girl like a queen and are having a processional with

>smaller girls throwing petals from a basket out front...  There's lots

>more. It's worth trying to buy a large print of this painting if you're

>intending to pursue this seriously.

>My print says "Kunsthistoriches Museum, Wien" which I take to mean that's

>where the painting is.  Can anyone verify this?  

 

This means the Painting is in the Art History Museum in Vienna.  

Hope this is what you wanted.  Any good museum shop or library should

have books on this and other artists for reference to specific paintings.

It is one of my favorite things to do and Your idea to others re: toys

is a good one.

  

                                        Astridhr Selr Leifsdottir

                                             E. Howard-Wroth

  

...uunet!astrid!astridhr                          Shire of Heatherwyne

astrid!astridhr at uunet.UU.NET                           Kingdom of Caid

70327.1614 at compuserve.com

 

 

From: kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Period Toys (Re: babies and smalls at events)

Date: 8 May 1996 14:53:09 GMT

Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services

 

David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:

 

: What reasonably period toys have people had success with? Our kids like

: their hobby horses, but don't play much with the cloth ball Elizabeth made

: them.

 

       One game I made, based on a period illustration, was to make wooden

paddles, then stuff multicolored feathers into a cork ball.  Teenagers

in our household would stand around and bat the ball back and forth for

hours. Adults, too, for that matter, if they could get it away from the

kids. Lady Jana Aoihbeall has made cloth dolls for her daughter, and

we made my goddaughter a cloth doll with a cat's head and feet dressed in

viking clothes.

 

               Avenel Kellough

 

 

From: jeffebear1 at aol.com (JeffEBear1)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Toys (Re: babies and smalls at events)

Date: 9 May 1996 13:36:59 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

The best baby toy I ever saw was a wood cage with a bell inside it for a

rattle. The ends were round disks with thin dowels for the bars all

around it and bells in the center. You can roll or shake it.  

____________

(___________)                                                             

Morigianna

l   l      l     l     l

l   l      l     l     l

l   l      l     l     l

(___________)

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: destry at netcom.com (Fellwalker)

Subject: Re: Period Toys (Re: babies and smalls at events)

Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:52:15 GMT

 

David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:

 

: What reasonably period toys have people had success with? Our kids like

: their hobby horses, but don't play much with the cloth ball Elizabeth made

: them.

 

At a recent tourney (My kid's first) they loved playing with the

miniature catapults (of course, this requires an area set up where they

can shoot, big people to call "hold" while they run around picking up spent

ammunition, etc). They also played for HOURS, sitting quietly, with a

borrowed bowed psaltry (these are 4 1/2 year olds, by the way.). Never

underestimate the power of something that makes noise.

   I can also recommend bean bag target games, or throwing hoops.

  

--Morgan

--

-- ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... <destry at netcom.com>

 

 

From: mhwag at aol.com (MHWag)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Toys (Re: babies and smalls at events)

Date: 12 May 1996 11:09:43 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

Musical instruments (inexpensive bodhrans, finger cymbals, tin whistles,

recorders)

Scarves for dancing (very popular with the 4-8 yr girls, but use only if

you wish to encourage that age group's natural flirtative-ness).

Puppets - have them make or decorate their own first, then put on a show.

It's amazing the sort of timely political commentary you get.  

 

The advantage of these is that they produce entertainment for others.  The

disadvantage is that the kids are not "quiet and out of the way."  

 

Aileen

 

 

From: ejpiii at delphi.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: babies and smalls at events

Date: Thu, 9 May 96 23:07:18 -0500

Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)

 

David Friedman <ddfr at best.com> writes:

>What reasonably period toys have people had success with? Our kids like

>their hobby horses, but don't play much with the cloth ball Elizabeth made

>them.

Greetings from Eddward, Well, your grace, I have found that my 2 played

well with hoop and stick, as well as my millet filled and cloth covered

juggling bags that are about the size and weight of baseballs, but much

softer.

 

Eddward

 

 

From: woofie at capital.NET (Susan Evans)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dolls - documentation

Date: 1 Jun 1996 22:42:33 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

In the Dover edition of Jost Amman's Kunstbuchlin/293 Ren. Woodcuts for

Artists, there is a print of children with a fairly fancy doll.  The date

of the book is 1599.  The print is #12

 

Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys/Sue Evans

 

 

From: taram <taram at postoffice.ptd.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period wares (was jurying merchants)

Date: 6 Jul 1996 22:15:41 GMT

Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

 

cclark at vicon.net (C. Clark) wrote:

 

> What I'd like to see is a few more merchants with documentation. Why is

> it that we can go to A&S competitions and see documentation for things

> that we're never going to have unless we spend dozens of hours learning

> to make them and another dozen hours making them, but when we actually

> see things that we can buy for our own use we're usually offered no

> documentation whatsoever? As long as we take it for granted that only

> experts (or walking libraries) are able to identify and buy period goods,

> we should also take it for granted that such goods will rarely be

> available--even if they could be sold at affordable prices.

>

> Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark

>

How about "supply and demand"?  The more "authentic" the more the cost.

And since I merchant to children, I have a bigger concern:  HEALTH.  

Some non-authentic stuff:  lead-free paint on the toys, Polyfil rather

than the hay, rags, or leaves they used as "authentic" stuffing.

 

Plus, since many parents I see spend $200 on a sword and then give their

kids "a buck" to buy something, having a $20 "authentic" toy is a bit

out of range.  As my personal quest to avoid seeing kids in perfectly

good garb playing Nintento at events, I try to keep 60% of my merchan-

dise under "a buck".  And all "PERIOD".  But that means simple building

block, dice, and glass "gems".  

 

Just above that, a few bucks for cup-and-ball sets or pouch games.

 

The most expensive is the hobby-horses, hobby-dragons, etc.  But by then,

I'm spending almost $10 in material and 10 hours HAND-SEWING AND TACKING

each piece.

 

My other stuff, I get what 5%-10% mark up from cost to cover my labor:

that makes something I pay $.40 in materials $.50 on the table.  Then

people only want to give me $.25 for it.  Again, Supply and Demand.

 

By the way, all the stuff I sell is documentable....  But again, I do

this to have something kids can afford.  No one can make commuting with

the stuff worth the trip unless they were already going there.  If I

were to make any money off this, kids (and many parents) wouldn't afford

it.

 

- Seana Whitehawk/Endless Hills

 

 

From: taram <taram at postoffice.ptd.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval toys

Date: 9 Jul 1996 00:15:26 GMT

Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

 

markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote:

> Do you have any recommendations of referances for those who are looking for

> documentation on medieval toys?

>

> Stefan li Rous

>

 

Greetings to Stefan!

 

References....

 

Well, three that I can dig up right away...

 

1. The Known World Handbook:  3rd edition, Pg.100.  That's what started

   me looking...

 

2. Medieval Games:  By Salaamallah the Corpulent.  (3rd edition: Aug. 1995)

 

3.     ... oh drat!  I forgot to note it on this copy.  Well, when I

       get the original copy back from my friend, I'll post that too.

       I found the book at my public library under "History-Toys" or

       "Toys-History"  It lists and describes what toys were and how

       they were made from 4,000 years ago and how they evolved to

       current (1950's) toys.  Excellent work.  I'll send a copy with

       my toys to Pensic.  I probably won't make it myself, or if I do,

       it would only be Sat. and Sun. of the last weekend.  Double drat!!

 

 

From: Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval toys

Date: 9 Jul 1996 16:06:59 GMT

Organization: City of Eugene, Eugene OR USA

 

Good day all,  I tried the "KS Toy history" thing and actually found

_Toys through the ages_ by Dan Foley, 1962, on the shelf.  It's not much

for illustrations but there is definitely history and references in

chapters 2-6, 10-11 including the one period illustration in the book, a

15th C. illustration of St Dorothy and the Christ Child riding a

hobbyhorse. Includes a bibliography of 3 pages of fairly small type.

 

Also, there's a new crop of photographically illustrated children's

non-fiction about life in past ages out in the last 3-5 years, try your

local children's section of the public library for, say, the Eyewitness

series from Knopf, with titles like Castle, Knight (both by Christopher

Gravett), Medieval life (Andrew Langley) and Viking (Susan Margeson),

1994-1996 (tho if anyone out there can DOCUMENT the game at the top of

the page-- you'll know it when you see it-- in the Viking book, we'd sure

like to hear about it!)

 

And I'm real sure both Usborne and Dorling/Kindersley have "Childhood

through the Ages" type books out, I have one of them at home.

 

Have fun; do talk to the children's librarians; I just remembered the

library world is in the middle of summer reading, so it may be hard to

find those items just browsing the shelves.

 

Have fun,

 

Chimene

chimenedes at aol.com (home)

 

 

From: taram <taram at postoffice.ptd.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval toys

Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:36:05 GMT

Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

 

Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US> wrote:

> Good day all,  I tried the "KS Toy history" thing and actually found

> _Toys through the ages_ by Dan Foley, 1962, on the shelf.  It's not much

> for illustrations but there is definitely history and references in

> chapters 2-6, 10-11 including the one period illustration in the book, a

> 15th C. illustration of St Dorothy and the Christ Child riding a

> hobbyhorse.  Includes a bibliography of 3 pages of fairly small type.

 

Greetings to all (again)!

 

Yes, I read that one.  Very good.  Unfortunately, my friend still has

my refernce binder where I keep my photocopies and references.  The

mentioned illustration triggered my memory of the book.  In fact, I

think the book also mentions that Socrates and Plato also played with

wooden hobby-horses as children.  I'm not too sure.  So many books, so

little time.

 

But readers, PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, MANY OF THE "PERIOD" TOYS WERE NOT

EXCLUSIVELY FOR CHILDREN.  Wasn't there a Sultan in the tale of Aladan

that collected rare and prized toys.  Prince and Princesses and rich

merchants children had some toys, but also lessons.  Lower class and

serf children worked most of the day and played with a stick, piece of

driftwood, rock and their imagination.  

 

Look in the adult section of libraries, under the 900 section (dewy)

for all sorts of toy histories.  Games were used to entertain adults,

the same for such "toys" as cup-and-balls, dice, etc.  Many toys are

still bought for and by adults.  The Prince and Princess of Aethelmarc

(sorry if I spelled that wrong) have a hobby-horse named "Horsikins".

So limiting your research about toys to the children's area, will get

you a very limited collection.  Children were sometimes only small

adults; they listened to the same storyteller as their parents; they

watched the same fools and public executions; they played the same games.

They only thing that marked them as children often enough was their

size and they're imagination.

 

It's a shame that many children at SCA events aren't included.  Many are

just left to the whims of anyone who's set up "Children's Activities" in

some out-of-the-way corner, or sat down in some isolated place where they

sit with gameboy or coloring books.

 

If we're re-creating medieval times, why are children not included as

they were in medieval society.  References:  Marjorie Rowling's "Life

in Medieval Times"; Joseph & Frances Gies' "Life in a Medieval Castle";

and "Life In a Medieval Village".  Even though children are sparely

mentioned in these books, they are also seen as involved in the social

life and not "Out of sight, Out of mind" or "Children Should be Seen;

Not Heard".

 

Sorry if I got on my soapbox there, but that sort of goes hand-in-hand

with my merchanting efforts.

 

       -- Seana Whitehawk

 

 

From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tiny Children in the SCA

Date: 16 Jul 1996 22:18:26 -0400

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

 

In article <9607161626.AA09879 at gcef.gc.maricopa.edu>,

Krista Kathryn Long-Shroyer <94002 at ef.gc.maricopa.EDU> wrote:

 

>Where can I find period sources for childrens products that look or are

>medieval? My son is 2, and I would love to get re-involved, but i think

>that strollers, sippee cups, plastic toys and other standard required

>items for young children are very gauche.

 

<rip>

 

wooden toys: try new-agey stores, educational sources (they tend to go for

the 'pure unfinished wood' type of toy when they aren't plastic) -

Creative Playthings used to have wooden rattles.  Or get to know someone

who does woodworking.  At 2+, rattles should be a good beginning.

Pulltoys can be of knights on horseback.

 

Have fun with it!

 

-- Tamar the Gypsy

 

 

From: cyberspace at midlink.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tiny Children in the SCA

Date: 17 Jul 1996 21:39:39 GMT

Organization: Cyberspace

 

Krista Kathryn Long-Shroyer <94002 at ef.gc.maricopa.EDU> wrote:

 

>Where can I find period sources for childrens products that look or are

>medieval? My son is 2, and I would love to get re-involved, but i think

>that strollers, sippee cups, plastic toys and other standard required

>items for young children are very gauche.

 

Home-made rag dolls, wooden building blocks--my 5 yr old step daughter

cannot be kept away from her father's wood scraps :)-- a hobby-horse with

a cloth horse-head over a thick dowel-rod, etc.  Just use your

imagination to make stuff, and ask the kids to help with it--at 2+ they

can glue yarn hair on a doll's head with supervision, or choose colors to

paint blocks, etc. _and_ they may like the toys more for having helped to

make them ;).  Scraps of cloth, etc for them to just mess around with are

also relatively safe and let them pretend to be "just like mommy."

 

In service to the Dream,

   Erzsebet

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: orilee ireland-delfs <orilee_j_ireland-delfs at wb.xerox.com>

Subject: Re: Children in the SCA

Organization: Xerox

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:34:35 GMT

 

Cloth dolls dressed in garb (make it match what the child is wearing!); even

the modern dolls dressed in garb are more interesting to play with.

 

We have a whole set of wooden characters - King Queen Prince Knight Herald,

etc. that my daughters take to play with.  (These we get every year at the

Pennsic War from Claus the toymaker - it's a regular shopping stop for my

daughters).

 

For older kids, pouches with colored stones to play with.  Period games (fox &

geese, backgammon, etc.)

 

Mistress Orianna Fridrikskona

mother of Birgitta and Ingridr

AEthelmearc, East

 

 

From: karen at georesearch.com (Karen Green)

To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 17:50:55 -0400

Organization: GeoResearch, Inc.

 

Unto Stefan li Rous, greetings!

 

I was reading your page of Rialto postings on medieval toys, and found

many references to the images in Pieter Brueghel's painting "Children's

Games."

 

Those who read the postings at this site may be interested in seeing the

actual picture.  It is posted (perhaps for a limited time, as it looks

to be a resource for an English poetry class at Emory University) at

http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/classes/Paintings&;Poems/games.jpg

 

Karen Larsdatter med det Usigelige Efternavn fra Skyggedal

 

 

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:33:30 -0800

From: fspfw at aurora.alaska.edu (Patrick Woolery)

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: toys, esp. childrens

 

Concerning sources for information on period toys:

 

>Also the Regia Angolorum web sight mentions wooden horses, wooden swords and

>knucklebones/jacks, but states no sources.

 

I do not know what sources are used by Regia Anglorum, but one good

possiblility is the book

 

Viking Artefacts: A Select Catalogue

James Graham Campbell

Published by British Museum Publications Ltd

ISBN 0 7141 1354 9

 

Half the book is b & w pictures of artefacts, the other half lists

information and sources for each picture.  I have found this book extremely

useful. If your library does not have a copy, it is worth inter-library

loaning it.

 

I am also interested in how children played in period, and was able to find

a fair-sized stack of books in my local library within half an hour.  I

warn you that many of the books were only marginally helpful, as they

either concentrated on the easier-to-find toys of the 17th and 18th

centuries, or did not include such vital information as what the toys were

made of and when and where they could be found.  I'm still not sure if

cloth-bodied (rag) dolls were period.

 

Good hunting,

Nataliia Tomasovna

 

 

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:38:40 -0500

From: theodelinda at webtv.net (linda webb)

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: toys, esp. childrens

 

Your idea of looking at pictures is a good one--I've found a lot of good

depictions of artefacts in paintings  and drawings from period.   One

I've seen recently is a scene of the Holy Family, with Mary using a

small standing loom to do what looks like card-weaving,  the toddler

Jesus in a walker made of turned wood spindles with little wheels, and

Joseph in his wood shop, which connects to the other room. This

particular picture is in the Book of Hours of Catherine of Cleves  c.

1440. I suspect that many toys didn't survive because they were made of

light, inexpensive materials like wood and cloth, and simply didn't

last.   I also recall a description in an ancient Greek author of a ball

made of wool--it sounds like those Japanese string balls (Perhaps in

Homer? I'll have to go and look)  I tried this, and tightly wound wool

will in fact make a fairly springy ball, although not as impressively

bouncy as modern rubber balls.  Once upon a time, although not in our

period, of course, baseballs used wool for the string that wrapped the

hard rubber core.  And the original golf ball was made of leather

stuffed with feathers, but as I recall from my source, this requires a

lot of feathers, even  for somethingas small as a golf ball.  Lawn

bowling, using wooden balls is period for adults and children--Sir

Francis Drake killed time waitng for the Spanish Armada with a few games

of lawn bowling.  Bocce is another type of lawn bowling.  Pin bowling is

also period--Martin Luther is supposed to have built his children their

own alley.  One source to try is the Encyclopedia Brittanica, especially

the Macropedia section- -it will have much more scholarly information

(and even a brief bibliography) than most of the popular works out

there. I'd cite other sources, but until my car is fixed, libraries and

I are only connected only emotionally, and not physically

Keep looking at pictures, though--they can tell you a lot.

                 Theo

 

 

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:03:51 -0500

From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: toys, esp. childrens

 

At 11:28 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Marisa Herzog said:

>I have been trying to research period children's toys.

 

I have done a fair amount of research regarding various lawn games,

particularly for adults.  In the course of that research, I have stumbled

across several sources for toys that might be of assistance.  I encourage

you to look at the Rialto archives on this topic.  There is quite a bit of

good information on this topic.

 

>I also have seen a couple paintings by Brueghal the Elder (Carnival and

>Children's Play) which show some fairly clear stuff- though one thing could

>either be a whirlygig (those helicopter/air tops that were popular when we

>were kids) or a piece of something foodlike on a stick! :)

 

Both of these paintings are quite useful.  Get a hold of as big a copy of

"Children's games" (1560) as you can.  The number of games and toys is

quite impressive, although many are not very recognizable.

 

>Also the Regia Angolorum web sight mentions wooden horses, wooden swords and

>knucklebones/jacks, but states no sources.

 

There are surviving Viking toys of this sort.  I don't know of any

Anglo-Saxon toys of this sort (but would be interested in sources if anyone

knows of them).  The Rialto archives give sources for some of these toys.

Another source is the book "From Viking to Crusader : The Scandinavians &

Europe 800-1200" (New York : Rizzoli, 1992).  Plate 13 shows the stem of a

toy boat, plate 14 shows a toy horse.

 

>Also there is the "known fact" that bocci ball/lawn bowling is period.

 

Tossing balls at a jack is most definitely period.  Modern bocce is a

derivative of that type of game.  The rules were probably not as strict in

the Middle Ages (i.e. whatever the players agreed upon).  Marginal

illustrations in manuscripts show quite a few pictures of this sort of

game, including one where a feather acts as the jack.  My sources for this

are at home; I did not have time to jot all the sources down that I have on

this and other games.

 

>Does anybody know of any books or other sources for toys and childs

>playthings, or games other than board games?

 

A few sources on toys that you might find useful:

 

Kolchin, Boris Aleksandrovich.

<Novgorodskie drevnosti. English>

Wooden artefacts from medieval Novgorod / B.A. Kolchin ; translated from the

Russian <by V.M. Levina> ; produced under the editorial supervision of A.V.

Chernetsov. -- Oxford, England : B.A.R., 1989.

(BAR international series ; 495)

plate 206 shows dolls, plates 209-13 show toy horses, 214-216 show tops,

swords, and a propeller

 

An interesting comparison with Bruegel's painting is one of a similar time

period by Peter von der Borght showing monkeys playing games.  The painting

is called "Spielende Affen" and can be found in the first issue of Stadion,

plate 3.

 

There is also a post period source (mid to late 17th century) which shows

very clear pictures of childrens games.  Although the style of the art is

definitely post period, I believe the games are generally period (as they

are similar to the Bruegal and von der Borght pictures).  The engravings

are by Claudine Bouzonnet Stella, based on Jacques Stella's drawings.

Author:         Stella, Jacques, 1596-1657.

               Jeux et plaisirs de l'enfance. English & French

Title:          Games & pastimes of childhood.

Published:      New York, Dover Publications [1969]

 

A list of games can be found in Francois Rabelais' "Gargantua and

Pantagruel" (1535), chapter 22.  Some of the games are self explanatory,

but many are just peculiar sounding names.

 

If you read French, another listing of games can be found in "L'espinette

amoureuse" (1394?) by Jean Froissart.  I believe the relevant lines are

148-286.

 

Another book which has a lot of really good pictures is:

Author:         Endrei, Walter.

               T arsasj at ek  es sz orakoz as a r egi Eur op aban. English

Title:          Fun and games in old Europe /

Published:      [Budapest] : Corvina, c1986

 

I'm not always too sure about the text (being a transaltion and not having

good citations), but much of the content seems good, and it is a great

collection of pictures.  The chapter on childrens games is pp.18-28.  It

includes pictures of a doll and other clay toys, children blowing bubbles,

tournaments with marionettes, tops, see saws, stitls, balls, swings, and

hoops.

 

You might be interested in:

Hanawalt, Barbara.

Growing up in medieval London : the experience of childhood in history /

Barbara A. Hanawalt. -- New York : Oxford University Press, 1993.

Pp.78-80 discuss games such as tag, hoops, and imitating adult ceremonies.

 

Shahar, Shulamith.

Childhood in the Middle Ages / Shulamith Shahar. -- London ; New York :

Routledge, 1990.

Various brief menitons of toys are scattered throughout the book.

 

Another book with interesting information is:

Strutt, Joseph, 1749-1802.

The sports and pastimes of the people of England. -- New ed. much enl. and

corr. by J. Charles Cox. London, Methuen, 1903. -- Detroit, Singing Tree Press,

1968.

It is well past period, but discusses traditional and old games.  The

illustrations are all redrawn, most of which I have found the orignals of.

It is a very useful source to help explain some of the pictures from the

middle ages.

 

I have quite a number of other sources regarding ball games, but as your

question seemed to mostly concern children's games, I thought i would limit

myself to those citations that I had at hand.

 

I hope this helps you make documentable toys.

 

Ailene nic Aedain

Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir

mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu

 

 

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:11:52 -0400

From: "lwperkins" <lwperkins at snip.net>

To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Re: toys, esp. childrens

 

Regarding period childrens' toys-- if you're interested in the sixteenth

century, I've seen two portraits of girls with dolls (one very "Barbie"

looking and stylishly dressed) and another portrait of a small boy "riding"

a hobby horse with a beautiful stuffed-animal head, bridle and mane, and a

pole for a body. Small children, ( to about age four) seem to prefer random

objects picked up off the ground. I say this because until two years ago my

daughter preferred rocks (to be piled up into castles), small sticks to

whap things with, pine cones and feathers, (which could be puffed around)

to any "real" toys that I had brought to an event.

 

Pets seem to be "toys" too; crickets, birds, squirrels, small dogs. I

can distinctly remember seeing a miniature wagon and horse toy in a book

somewhere, but I think it may have been even pre-Christian, and so not

particularily helpful for you.  I'll be interested to see what others post

on this thread.

 

--Ester du Bois

lwperkins at snip.net    

 

 

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:20:22 -0600

From: Tony and Kim Archuleta <arch at thuntek.net>

To: "'Arts & Sciences List'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: FW: toys, esp. childrens

 

Some information passed on from AElflaed of Duckford:

______________________________

 

There are various Renaissance paintings with a kid holding a doll or toy.

There are some museums in England that have a few things.

 

The things in the Breughel painting (Children's Games--I have a big print)

ARE whirligigs, held loosely in the hand facing the wind (and kid runs along

to make them twirl), not launched up into the air, it seems.

 

Knucklebones in a French game like Jacks, used to be played with real sheep's

knuckles (whatever those are) and now plastic versions are sold in France.  I

don't have any.   There are LOTS of games books around with Barley Break and

other running games which were often played by adolescents and young adults,

excuses to touch and tickle and hold hands with the opposite sex.

 

I think keeping an eye out in unexpected places, rather than looking up

"toys" at the library, will gradually turn up lots of cool stuff.

 

Probably the reason there aren't more existing toys are that they got played

up. Same reason the full-size armor is all gone.  They used it and the parts

of it until it wasn't useable anymore.  Museums have a lot of inlaid

tournament armor and outgrown processional and ceremonial armor of prominent

teens and young adults who outgrew it.

 

Sandra

 

 

Date: 26 Jun 1997 09:15:27 -0700

From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: FW- toys, esp. childrens

 

>The things in the Breughel painting (Children's Games--I have a >big print)

ARE whirligigs, held loosely in the hand facing the >wind (and kid runs along

to make them twirl), not launched up >into the air, it seems.

 

In "Children's Games" there are things more like a pinwheel done facing off

the end of the stick than the side (as they are made now), which they are

holding straight out in front of them like jousting lances, presumably to get

the sails to spin in the wind. I would assume that the sails are probably

mounted on a pin like a modern pinwheel so that they move freely from the

stick/handle

                               \  /

                                \/

   ============================= /\

                               /  \

really bad ascii art

In "Carnival" they are holding things that look a lot more like whirlygigs,

(propellor blade on a stick)- but then again they are standing next to a food

vendor, so it might be a flattened piece of bread or something stuck on the

end of a stick

 

        ----------\____________

        |__________\           |

                   |-----------/  

                   |

                   |

                   |

                   |

                   |

even worse drawing ;)

 

thank you everybody for all the book sources, now if I could just win the

lottery so that I could spend all my time ensconced in the library with a

notepad!

 

brid hecgwiht

 

 

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:23:21 -0500 (CDT)

From: timbeck at ix.netcom.com

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: toys, esp. childrens

 

>I have been trying to research period children's toys.

 

On toys I have seen a few examples of period dolls slush cast in pewter and

I have seen depictions in paintings of cloth dolls.  There is a good book

on games of the past which I bought in a larger game store.  But for the

life of me I can't find now.  There were many board games in period which

seem a bit simple-minded but seem to have been enjoyed as much by adults

of the past as children. Chutes and Ladders comes to mind but I believe it

post-period.

 

Hope this helps,

                        Timothy

 

 

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 21:50:06 -0600 (MDT)

From: Bruce Padget <niccolo at bitcorp.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: toys, esp. childrens

 

Sorry I'm a few days late on this thread, but Theo mentioned vague

references to wool balls as children's toys.  These could have been made

of string, but another possibility is that they were felted.  As most

people who have felted or fulled wool know, wet, soapy wool can be kneaded

until it resembles a firm nerf ball.  They're usually small (excellent

cat toys) but can be made larger.  I have no idea if they're period, but

they can easily be made with period materials and techniques.

 

Lady Elyn

 

 

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:20:19 -0400

From: karen at georesearch.com (Karen Green)

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: toys, esp. childrens

 

As regards this thread, has anyone mentioned Pieter Brueghel's

"Children's Games," painted in 1560?

 

A jpg of the picture can be found at

http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/classes/Paintings&;Poems/games.jpg but the

detail on the scan isn't quite good enough for really picking out

documentable dolls and that sort of thing, but I imagine better images

are available in print.  The original is 46 inches x 63 inches and is in

the Kunsthistorisches Museum, in Vienna.

 

Yours in Service to the Dream,

 

Karen Larsdatter

Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia

 

 

Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:49:30 -0400 (EDT)

From: John Strauss <jstrauss at gmu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: re: Brueghel

 

Karen Larsdatter (who used to have a much longer name) sez:

>As regards this thread, has anyone mentioned Pieter Brueghel's

>"Children's Games," painted in 1560?

 

Great source! It is possible to buy a print of this, roughly 20-something

by 30-something inches. Any poster shop can get it for you. Costs $25

bucks or so and looks great.

 

I've got one up on the wall and one of those OED magnifying glasses

sitting on the shelf next to it.

 

I'm glad to hear there is a net version. That will be good to have when I

go building docs. Thanks, Karen.

 

-Henry

 

      John Strauss             |    Henry Best, OP      

      Lexington, KY            |    Dragonsmark, Midrealm      

-------------------------------+------------------------------

      jstrauss at gmu.edu         |    "Jugate Potentum Gaudii"

 

 

From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Camping with my hands full

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:12:18 -0700

Organization: Santa Clara University

 

In article <354FDD0B.3F07 at mcn.org>, "flskwirl at mcn.org" <flskwirl at mcn.org> wrote:

>Pack TOYS.  It doesn't matter if they are "period", only if they will keep the

>kid amused.  

 

For our encampment it does matter, so we have worked out a number of

possibly period toys--meaning things that are not obviously out of period,

although in some cases we don't know how close to period originals they

are. One favorite is leather animals. Elizabeth finds a suitable design,

draws the profile, then turns it into two profiles, one with head and tail

but without legs, and one the other way around. I cut from thick,

vegetable tanned leather one of the former and two of the latter, then

sandwich them together-giving an animal with four legs it can stand on.

They have included horses, lions and wolves so far, both adult and

colt/cub. The kids like them. The main problem is to keep the kids from

playing with them at home and losing them so that we don't have them for

events.

 

Elizabeth has also made a stuffed cloth ball, and a small stuffed cloth

crocodile. I've made Bill (our four year old) period technology boffers--a

core of rolled raw hide, and the rest cloth stuffed with hay. Both kids

have hobby horses. We haven't gotten to hoops and sticks yet, but when

they get a little older ...  .

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:20:36 -0400

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Toys

 

rmhowe wrote:

> Melanie Wilson wrote:

> > Just got an interesting book on lead alloy childrens toys from the medieval

> > period until about 18th C

> >

> > Anyone else out there making or thinking of making their children period

> > toys ?

> >

> > Mel

> Seems like I just recently read / saw a bit on lead wheeled

> falconers on horse being found in the Seine at Paris. They had

> been cast in a three part stone mold. Apparently an early

> pull type toy. There were two of them. I think it was felt they

> had fallen in as a result of the shop being on the bank.

> The third mold part was inserted between the sides of the horse's

> body / legs up into the body like a wedge, the other two parts

> on either side. Little wheels were added later on axles between

> the feet. Looked kind of like a jester with a hawk and a liripipe

> hood. I know I've got it somewhere, but I read too damned much

> for any sane person. Next time I come across it I'll post on it.

> Magnus

 

Okay, found it - Page 216, The Secular Spirit, Life and Art at the

End of the Middle Ages, foreward by Thomas Hoving, Metropolitan

Museum of Art, 1975.

 

There are also pictures of dice, hollow but filled with new bone

to cover the calcareous tissue of the bone they are made of. Game

markers, games, and a toy top which looks like a wooden orange with

a cone under it. The falconers were XIIIth century and are thought to

be the oldest surviving tin soldiers. They were 1 3/8" high. Drop

the liripipe hood bit. These have helmets / hats and a textured

costume that could be chain mail. I must have been thinking of other

pewter depictions.

 

Magnus.

 

 

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:31:45 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Toys

 

There's also a section of toys in _Wooden Artefacts from Medieval

Novogrod_, including hobby horses, tops (made with a depression on top,

not a spindle), toy swords, dolls, etc.

 

> Does anyone know how far back dolls were made (i.e. ceramic/porceline type)?

> Is it medival at all?

 

From the Medieval Novogrod book the things identified as dolls were people

shapes cut out of flat planks and dressed. (This is all archealogical

stuff. They had a number of carved figures in the book too, but those were

identified as 'household spirits'.)

 

I'll post a fuller report on the book as soon as I get it back from my

friend Kat'ryina, who schwicked it almost as soon as I'd ILL'ed it!

 

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental), mka Jennifer Heise

jenne at tulgey.browser.net

 

 

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:44:22 -0400

From: Karen Larsdatter <karen at stierbach.atlantia.sca.org>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Toys

 

Two online things to check out on medieval toys:

 

http://www.bawue.de/~wmwerner/essling/english/karmel08.html

Excavations from the area of a Carmelite friary at Esslingen, in

Germany. Includes several clay toys.

 

http://www.mtsu.edu/~kgregg/dmir/21/toys.html

"Toys in the Middle Ages," a wonderful article by Lady Margritte

of Ravenscroft.

 

That should be a start ... :)

 

Karen Larsdatter

 

 

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:41:29 -0400

From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>

To: LIST SCA arts <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Toys

 

Playthings from the past-Lead alloy miniature artefacts c1300-1800 compiled

by Geoff Egan

 

20 pages of A4

 

Mel

 

 

From: "Susan Harmon" <sca.brighit at gmail.com>

Date: July 9, 2008 5:07:06 PM CDT

To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [tri-temp] period jigsaw puzzles?

 

http://www.jigsaw-puzzle.org/jigsaw-puzzle-history.html



http://www.jigsaw-puzzle.org/index.html



http://www.woodentoys-uk.co.uk/jigsaw-history.html



 

This is what I found on a quick search.
Anyone with more information?

Brighit of the MacGregor

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 9, 2008, at 11:12 AM, lmj123160 at aol.com <lmj123160%40aol.com>wrote
> > Excuse me for taking time from your busy day but I need some help.
> > A jigsaw puzzle needs to be put together before Pennsic and many
> > pieces
> > are still missing.
> > If you know anyone who is going to Pennsic this year and is pre-reg'd
> > to stay in the Royal encampment we need to hear from them.
> >
>
> Oh! That kind of jigsaw puzzle. Best of luck on your project.
>
> However, this made me wonder whether jigsaw type puzzles were made in
> period or whether they are, say, an 19th century creation? Anyone
> know or know anyone who has done research on this topic?
>
> Thanks,
> Stefan
> --------
> THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
> Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas
> StefanliRous at austin.rr.com <StefanliRous%40austin.rr.com>
>

 

 

To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Children's activities

Posted by: "Karen" karen_larsdatter at yahoo.com

Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 9:19 pm (PDT)

 

Lady Lyonet of Greystone wrote:

> I am looking for paintings/wood cuts/engravings or what-have-you

> of children, especially children playing. Any time frame with in the SCA.

 

See http://larsdatter.com/toys.htm for children playing with toys; there are some more links relating to games at http://larsdatter.com/games.htm as well.

 

Karen

 

 

To:    CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Date:    Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:58:59 -0600

From:    Ingjaldr inn Storrhoggvi <iggyschlepp at HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kids, RUSH, and Medieval Childhood Entertainment

 

On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:59:19 -0600, Tortuga <diinen at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

<<< On a side note, I have found myself wondering just what children did for fun

during the medieval period. I know they did a lot of work, as all able hands

were made useful during that period, but children are children and I have no

doubt they found ways to entertain and amuse themselves. >>>

 

Norse children, played a game similar to Chess, called Hnefatafl,

http://www.gamecabinet.com/history/Hnef.html, and a throwing game called

“Kubb”, http://www.vikingkubbgame.com/how-to-play-viking-kubb/. And much

like many of us did as kids, they invented their own games to play around

outside.

 

Younger children would play with a wooden "wolf" which was covered with a

"lambskin". As children got older around 12-13, they would practice with

their weapons and develop their skills with them.

 

Several toys have also been found from the Viking age. Horse toys are known

from several settlement sites. At Kvivik in the Faroe Islands, a horse with

defined legs, a long, thick neck and a short nose has been discovered, There

is no tail. Trondheim offers a similarly shaped animal, which is dated 1075

- 1125. This horse has a long, defined, tail, not separated from the body of

the creature, in contrast to the bobbed tail seen on some of the Novgorod

animals of the same period. (Others, like the Kvivik horse, have no tail at

all.) The city of Staraja Ladoga (St Petersburg) offers the earliest find,

with a legless example from the eighth or ninth century. The wood-grain in

this animal is cut on the diagonal rather than horizontal, and there is also

no tail. The neck is long and narrow with a small head. It is interesting

that this early example foreshadows the platform horses found in later

contexts at Novgorod. The Trondheim horse, one of the Novgorod horses and

the Faroes example all have defined genitalia - perhaps representing the

fighting stallions.

 

There are three miniature ships in Dublin. The latest is of the thirteenth

century. The earliest is tenth century, but I have not discovered its

details. The third is a fairly complete eleventh/twelfth century model,

eleven centimetres in length, with a width of just over four centimetres and

the remains of a mast in the centre (Viking Artefacts, pp.25-26, 215). A

much larger ship from Hedeby (prow end only) has a surviving length of 30

cm. No specific date is given for this item, but Hedeby was abandoned by

1100 AD. Other model ships are recorded from the Faroes and Greenland, with

at least one more found at Hedeby. Each vessel has been carved from a block

of wood.

 

Lastly there is evidence of dolls, All extant examples of the Viking period

are carved of wood. There are very few of them, in contrast to the numbers

of some toys, but they do exist. It would be more surprising if no replica

'babies' were found, given the propensity of young children to copy the

nurturing processes of which they are part.

 

One figure, discovered in the permafrost of Baffin Island, is not properly a

Viking doll, belonging to the Inuit settlement on the Island. However, the

doll is attired in what seems to be Norse rather than Inuit clothing, and

thus offers useful support for theories of trade contact between the two

peoples. Apart from this isolated find, all the evidence comes from

Novgorod. Here, there is no lack of human figures in various styles.

 

Sadly, there isn't a great deal of information on what Vikings in fact did

for fun. But, just imagine what you like to do and they probably did it too.

 

HL Ingjaldr AKA Iggy

 

<the end>



Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org