children-msg

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children-msg – 3/1/08

Children in the SCA and period.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: Marion.Kee at A.NL.CS.CMU.EDU

Date: 15 Feb 90 18:53:00 GMT

Greeting to the Rialto from Lady Marian Greenleaf:

It's great to see this subject come up, although in general the Rialto

population is largely un-childed and may not keep the topic going for

very long.

I don't have any kids yet myself but last year I was responsible for

planning and claiming a rather tightly-organized encampment which had

to accomodate 7 children ranging in age from 20 months to 8 years.

So I tried to do my homework, talking to parents and thinking of the

whole thing as a process. The actual implementation worked amazingly

well. I will limit the discussion more or less to physical support

arrangements because I didn't end up doing much of the diaper-changing

level of work.

This all may sound complex, but if you set it up right it's amazingly

easy to keep it going.

Anything on the ground or within reach from the ground, including at

least the bench level of every picnic table (depending on the agility

of the child involved) is to be kept strictly childproofed. To support

this, I designed and built a portable high shelf attached to 2 4X4's.

(I borrowed a post-hole digger--the upright iron rod kind seems to work

best on the dirt at Cooper's--and it took me a couple of hours to dig the

holes, set the posts more or less straight, and attach the shelf.)

The shelf is a foot wide and about 8 feet long; it holds the propane stoves,

all knives and other sharp implements, the detergent, all matches (further

encased in closed containers), and anything else that needs to be up

high. Additional space comes from hooks set in the uprights, and the

tops of the 4X4's (about 5 feet above the ground). A portable table,

set so that one end reaches under the shelf, provides more room for the

cook to set things while actually working, and provides a place to set

non-dangerous dishes and utensils, while still being too high for small

children to climb (but watch where you set chairs around it!) The whole

covers nicely with a standard 12X12 dining fly, and there is lots of room

left to put in seating. To secure the fly for storms, put everything

under the shelf area and lash the fly around the whole.

There are no tiki torches or other dangerous fuel sources of light in

camp. Period. Lit candles are always hung out of reach and must be

extinguished when the last person leaves camp or goes to bed. Since

everyone knows where to find the matches (on the shelf!) this is not

really much of an inconvenience. Electric lanterns are also good if

you are not particularly purist.

The firepit (yes, we had one) is always attended when lit. This was

less of a problem than you might think. Small children don't care for

really hot things in general and the heat can be felt several feet away.

Leaving live coals concealed under ashes during children's waking hours

is strictly forbidden. People who come back to camp during the wee

hours should always check the firepit before retiring. With 30 people

in camp this means it gets checked.

There is a children's play area. It has a couple of dining flies set

together to provide shade; maybe a screen house. The thin tatami mats

sold in discount stores are great for flooring. You can put up a card

table, chairs, maybe a small picnic table under the shade, and keep

lots of kid-type supplies there. If you fear bad weather at night,

just drop the flies and lash them around the table; you don't even have

to move much stuff, except for essentials such as diapering supplies and

favorite toys which should go wherever your kid actually is--play area,

tent, or out with an adult. Play areas require space and you should

plan accordingly to keep it tight; a smaller sleeping tent, perhaps.

Shade is absolutely essential. Children suffer more from heat and

dehydrate faster than adults. If you child will nap in the open shade,

that's ideal--better than a hot tent in mid-afternoon!

The play area, in a larger encampment, is not close to the cooking fly.

You could combine them in a small encampment if you are careful about

policing the area and keep in mind your child's ability to climb.

Adults and older children camping in the area must agree to keep

dangerous items secured and out of sight, and must close up their tents

when they are not in them. Ventilation should be discreet and not

include tempting views of every piece of armor they own spread all over

the floor. These things can inspire an 18-month-old to master the

mysteries of zippers in record time.

Kids have a definite bedtime and naptime and the other campers know

when these are. If there are other parents in camp, coordinate.

Babysitting duties are coordinated and shared.

At dusk, before bedtime for the mobile kids, tie a lightstick on each

child. They love it, and it makes them easier to find and prevents

collisions when they are chasing each other in the twilight. Why are

they chasing each other? So they'll drop straight off to sleep, of

course! (not that you can stop them in any case.)

If you cannot be close to water, arrange ahead of time for somebody

else to carry water to you on a regular basis. Same for ice.

For kids that are out of diapers but not old enough to go potty on

their own, try to get a spot reasonably close to whatever variety of

toilet your child will tolerate. The alternative is to set up your own

potty chair and empty it yourself. Personally I feel that the camping

rules, whatever they are (and I DON'T want to start that discussion

going again!) somehow need to accomodate small children in this regard.

Barriers such as wind screens and closed tents look more solid to small

children than they really are. You can exploit this. Any kind of

defined boundary will mean something to most kids. This is important;

neighboring encampments will almost certainly not be childproof. Bring

highly visible ropes and stakes. (Mine are orange and yellow!)

If they run their legs off during the day, they will totally conk out at

night, and you can rev up the firepit and party. If you tend to like a

little excess in that department, trade off "excess nights" with other

parents or babysitters.

Well, that's most of what I learned working with these things last

year. I'm sure there are people out there with more detailed advice on

babies per se. There is no substitute for cooperating with the other

people in your encampment, no matter how old the kids are.

In service to the child and parental units of the Known World,

--Lady Marian Greenleaf

From: Marion.Kee at A.NL.CS.CMU.EDU

Date: 16 Feb 90 16:31:00 GMT

Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Several people have suggested that local newsletters might be interested

in reprinting my article of Feb. 15 on camping with small children.

Permission is hereby granted for SCA reprint purposes. I didn't

Greenleaf, Barony-Marche of the Debateable Lands, East Kingdom. Thanks

for the positive responses; I'm interested in seeing how others handle

the same kinds of challenges.

--Marian

From: Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.wbst845 at XEROX.COM

Date: 4 May 90 20:50:55 GMT

Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Greetings to the parents of kids under 5 from Lady Orianna, the mother of

an (almost) 3 year old!

I have always had this problem too. Kids activities at SCA events are

usually geared for children age 5 or 8 and up (and yet many also miss that

gap between 12 and 15 too). These things involve learning heraldry and

such. Rarely do you find activities for the under 5 crowd.

We have tried to have some activities at a couple of events for the under 5

crowd. These included: a play area separated from the major adult area by

benches so the children could play but still be close to the main activity.

The play area had age appropriate toys (in a gym we used balls that the

kids could chase), crafts (coloring pens or crayons, paper, etc.), a snack

time, story telling, and a planned nap time for anyone wishing it where the

kids would take a collective nap or quiet time out with supervision by an

adult and parents were free to enjoy the event. Since the weather was a

little bad, we didn't do some of the outdoor activites that we had planned,

like a nature walk for the older kids and general "run around and play" for

the younger.

Our solution to having our daughter along consisted of the following:

We selected which events we took her to and which she stayed with Grandma

(luckily, her "Oma" is close and will babysit). We made sure that if the

event was too big (Ice Dragon), not guaranteed to have space for kids to

run and play in (Ice Dragon), was a heavy work event for one of us

(Investitures and Coronet Tournaments where we would both be busy heralding

or setting up court all day, or events that we were autocratting and

required a lot of attention), or we were ready for a break, she did not go.

Other events are ideal to take her to. Myrkfaelinn's annual camping event

has lots of open space for her to run in and doesn't require much effort on

our part to attend.

Our other coping strategy was a young lady who attended events with us. If

Brigid was along, we paid Kilde's way as payment for her help with Brigid.

This was a shared activity, not a full-time babysitting arrangement. At

camping events, we would take turns on who spent the evening in camp and

who went camp hopping. At indoor events, Kilde would help out if, for

example, we both had business in Court and Kilde would hold Brigid. When

Kilde went to college, we got lost! We had truely been spoiled.

Anyway, this is too long as is. My suggestions would be to a) find

someone to share the burden with, even if this means paying their way to

the event. b) plan activities that you know your kids enjoy (reading

stories to them, playing with their favorite toys, coloring if they are old

enough). c) find other parents with kids the same age. Pool resources and

kids. Let the kids play together while you get acquainted and swap "war"

stories.

Unfortunately, until the kids are old enough to be allowed on their own at

an event, you will probably spend a lot of time sitting on the sidelines.

Find some friends who are willing to sit with you to talk, so you at least

aren't isolated.

Best of luck!

Orianna

Thescorre, AEthelmearc, East

Rochester, NY

From: ddfr at tank.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 6 May 90 05:46:54 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago

Awilda mentions a seventeenth century baby walker, and wonders how

far back they go. We have a book with a copy of a medieval miniature

showing the holy family with Jesus in a walker. I can check the date

if people are interested, but it is certainly period.

David (Cariadoc)

From: JCASE%TUFTS.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Date: 7 Oct 90 05:55:00 GMT

On the journey home from tourney today, my lady and I were discussing aspects

of children growing up in the SCA. A subject came up which I thought might

make an interesting discussion topic, to wit: Are children who are growing

up in the SCA more likely to be more trusting of strangers than other children.

We had noted the youngster (6-12 years) who had played so hard around the lords

and ladies, and whom the children had no qualms about relating to, and we had

noted that the daughter of the Baron and Baroness Carolingia had been basically

passed from person to person among whomever wished to hold he, and at five

months seemed to have absolutely no fear of strangers.

What do other fishers at the Rialto think, especially those who have raised or

are raising SCA children think?

Taran

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Lord Taran of Windy Hill John H. Case

Barony of Carolingia 87 Moreland St.

Kingdom of the East Somerville, MA 02145-1441

JCASE at tufts.bitnet

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From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)

Date: 4 Sep 91 18:05:22 GMT

Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science, Blacksburg, VA

Greetings to all from Angharad. These two threads have persisted long enough

that it seemed a couple of observations might be worth putting in.

A couple of my acquaintance with a five year old son attended Atlantian Tenth

Year, a four day event. They had all the usual problems of not wanting to be

tied to their son every moment of that time, with an additional awareness that

anyhow, he probably didn't want to be tied to them the whole time either, but

he did need supervision. Since Tenth Year was longer than most events, the

normal problems were aggravated. They came up with a solution that I found

creative and that seemed to work well for all concerned.

They didn't foster out their son. They fostered IN another, much older child.

She lives in the kingdom, they know her well, she knows their son well, the

kids get along, and the parents get along. The older child was hired to spend

a lot of time at the event with the younger child.

Everyone seemed to have a good time.

For it to work, your child has to be old enough, you have to know the right

older child, and the child has to be available. But the children of kingdoms

do tend to get to know one another, parents of children who know each other

tend to become acquainted, and a young teenager can enjoy the responsibility,

the pay, and the younger child. When it can be done, it seems to offer all

the best features of positive sum games: everyone in sight wins.

Nothing like a complete solution, but worth looking at.... Many of the solutions suggested are like that: small and personal, and they only work in some cases, but if you can collect enough of them, you may start getting some reasonable coverage. I tend to have more faith in the simple and personal solutions than in the large scale organizational ones, both because they feel far more authentic and because I think they're more likely to work.

In the same spirit, I tend to shy away from the idea of organizing something like Peasant's Point to feed those who could use it, for several reasons. First, hospitality was one of the prime virtues of the age we are trying to recreate. If there is an official Peasant's Point, there will tend to be an associated tacit assumption that that is the place to go if you're hungry and broke. This silently but, I fear, effectively undermines the tendency for each group to offer a many small charities: the automatic offers of something to drink and perhaps to snack on for visitors, or for passing heralds, and the like. Second, it is a great deal easier for thousands of people to (voluntarily, individually) divide the financial burden through individual hospitality than it is to raise the money to do it all in one place. Third, individual hospitality requires no separate staffing or labor, as an official Peasant's Point would.

There are groups that effectively run Peasant's Points throughout the site,

feeding everyone who comes by. I would hate to see that go away; indeed, one

of my great regrets this War was that because of chaos in the months leading

up, my lord and I could not do so ourselves, but must to a far greater extent

receive, this year, than give. Being gracious and hospitable is not only

authentic and virtuous and all that, it is also fun, and leaves you feeling

good.

Surely we want no one to go through War -- or, I hope, any event -- hungry

and thirsty and uncomfortable. Is it really easier to prevent this, from

anyone's point of view, by raising money and a staff and doing something

official? Do we need it? Those of you out there who were at War and could

have used hospitality: did you find it in short supply? Would you have headed

for an official Peasant's Point had there been one? (These aren't rhetorical

questions; I am interested to know whether this is a problem in need of a

solution, or a problem already to a large extent informally solved.)

Angharad ver' Rhuawn Terry Nutter

Barony of Black Diamond Blacksburg, VA

Kingdom of Atlantia jtn at vtopus.cs.vt.edu

From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Date: 3 Sep 91 16:38:10 GMT

Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA

z1dan at exnet.iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson -- Seed Testing Labortory):

> In short, parents, if you do not observe your children at all

> times it is reasonable to conclude that others will help to keep them

> out of trouble. Please respect their methods of parenting, and do not

> think they are any less a gentle because their methods and yours differ.

I agree, provided that your concept of parenting does not require that the

parent be in constant attendance on the child.

> My main contention with

> children is their noise level, but a simple request for them to please

> keep it down a bit usually suffices.

As I suggested, treating children as reasonable people works at least as

often as asking adults to be quieter or be elsewhere.

> Interesting idea: how many on here like to listen to the bards?

> How many children like to listen to the bards? Would it not make sense

> to compile a book or two of bardic stories, fairy tales of you will, and

> let a few aspiring bards practice their craft to the enjoyment of the

> children at the event? The bard will naturally be empowered to send the

> children packing if they disrupt the story for others, but it would

> provide a welcome, and period, distraction for the kids.

My reluctance to suggest this stems from my feeling that adults would be

almost as interested in hearing the tales as the children. Things like

1001 Arabian nights and the adventures of Arthur Pendragon, Robin Hood or

Finn MacCool (Fionn MacCumhail) should have almost universal appeal. The

difficulty lies in finding a bard who is willing to spend his day, and

his voice, in the manner; and in the autocrat finding a place for this

activity to take place.

> Erik Aarskog, Axed Root, Calontir

Fiacha

Aquaterra, AnTir

From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson")

Date: 3 Sep 91 17:38:00 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus:

Sister Kate, speculating about how best to do childcare at events, writes:

> Since this is

> to everyone's benefit, shall we charge a small fee at Troll and put it

> toward child care, paying professionals to see to the smaller children?

Please don't make this suggestion too seriously. Modern professionals

will care for children in modern ways, and this is equivalent to being

locked away from the rest of the event and given modern play to do.

(Colouring medieval pictures and the like is clearly modern play, even

if it has medieval trappings.) I would imagine you would have to find

someone *awfully* special who would be willing to learn about the SCA

and the middle ages enough to incorporate child care into the event.

> Asking for volunteers to run a nursery doesn't seem to work very well, as

> has been pointed out. Shall we then draw straws among the local officers

> to see who's going to organize the child care this time? Suggestions?

In fact, at most of the Midrealm events I have been to which advertised

childcare, the children were shut away in a room with one or two female

caregivers, and they coloured, strung beads, and played with Fisher Price

toys until dinnertime, when they were returned to their parents. (Sound

familiar?) I find this fundamentally bothersome.

What we do at our events is find ways for children to be useful during

the day. Even a child of four or five can help the kitchen staff carry

things from the kitchen to the hall. (Mind you, the kitchen has to be

reasonably organized to be able to use the children's help, but fortunate-

ly this has never been a problem.) Older children of six or seven are

put to work minding the little ones (we saved a toddler from a busy street

this way). The older children who feel up to it make excellent servers.