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Placenames3-msg – 4/30/15


Origins and meanings of SCA placenames. Some of the stories behind them. This is the third of three such files.


NOTE: See also the files: Branch-Names-art, placenames-msg, placenames2-msg, SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, child-stories-msg, you-know-msg, border-stories-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



Note: This is the third of the 3 placenames-msg files in the Florilegium. I am still looking for the stories behind the SCA group names not given in these files. If you know the story behind a name not given in these files, please send me an email with the group name and story so that I may add it to these files.





From: SPaterson <sjpaterson at eastlink.ca>

Date: July 21, 2010 2:51:49 PM CDT

To: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Re: meaning of place names


I am not sure if it is Welsh or Celtic, I should know but I didn't vote for that option when we went barony ( voted for "Naratingatall" which is Newfoundland slang for 'nothing at all') :) and yes the heraldry is a piece of white land jutting into the blue ocean :)


----- Original Message -----

From: Stefan li Rous


Greetings Bess,


Thank you!  Do you know what language "Ruantallan" is in? Do you know if their heraldry has any connection to the name?




On Jul 21, 2010, at 7:44 AM, SPaterson wrote:

Barony of Ruantallan - "piece of land jutting into the ocean"  the largest land mass of Ruantallan is a peninsula, the province of Nova Scotia.

Crown Principality of Tir Mara (East Kingdom Canada)  Celtic: Land on/of the Sea

Bess Darnley



From: Mark Schuldenfrei <mark at SCHULDY.ORG>

Date: July 21, 2010 6:47:50 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] What does -tir mean?


Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< I know that I am probably missing the origins and meanings behind a

lot of shire and baronial names. If you know why certain names were

selected and you don't find them documented in these files, PLEASE

send me an email with the information so I can include it in these

files. >>>


I don't have time to read the articles to see, but here in Boston

far away from Calontir: the name Carolingia for the Barony came

from the Charles River: Carolus, in Latin.  The Charles forms the

northern edge of the city of Boston, the southern edge of Cambridge,

and meanders through much of the area.


        Tibor ("Oh I love that dirty water: Boston you're my home.")



From: Brummbar von Schwarzberg <firsthirth at AOL.COM>

Date: July 21, 2010 4:24:59 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Origins   - What does -tir mean?


Prior to the division that separated Three Rivers and created Shattered Crystal the rivers were the Mississippi, Missouri, and Illinois.  Since then the Illinois has been replaced by the Meramac south of St. Louis.




-----Original Message-----

From: otsisto <otsisto at SOCKET.NET>


Now I know the B3R's device is a rendition of the City's CoA, but from what I understand, but I could be wrong, that the 3 rivers are the Missouri, Mississippi, and the river despai.... I mean river Des Pere. Is this correct or am I missing a river.



(who led a sheltered life in St. Louis)



From: john heitman <gottskrieger at GMAIL.COM>

Date: July 21, 2010 11:04:27 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Origins - What does -tir mean?


The three rivers are the Missouri, the Upper Mississippi, and the

conjoined combination of the two.  In their natures, they are

definitely three different rivers.  The Missouri is relatively wide,

shallow, flat, and muddy.  The Upper Mississippi is narrower, fast,

steep (requiring several lock and dam systems between Milwaukee and

St. Louis), and remarkably clear.  The conjoined is muddy, deep, wide,

fast, and steady sloped down into the delta.


Oddly, if one actually looks at how the waters flow together instead

of their depiction on the map, it becomes obvious that the Mississippi

flows into the Missouri, not the other way around.  Therefore, the

river below St. Louis is actually the Missouri, not the Mississippi,

and therefore actually becomes the longest river in the world.


If St. Louis were to claim a "third" river, it would be the Meramac.

Truth is, with the Missouri north, the Mississipi east, and the

Meramac south, St. Louis becomes an isthmus.  There is only one way

out of town that does not require crossing a bridge of at least 60 ft

over ten foot depth of water.  And that path is only about 20 miles

wide at its narrowest point out by Washington, MO.


And you wondered why B3R is so damn humid all the time.





From: Lis Schraer <lis at WUBIOS.WUSTL.EDU>

Date: July 22, 2010 11:07:52 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Origins   - What does -tir mean?


Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< Hmmm. Okay this is all I have on Three Rivers:

"Three Rivers - There are enough things mundanely named Three Rivers in St. Louis to make this one obvious"


Okay, maybe it isn't so obvious (now). Folks have mentioned some changes and the two posters seem to disagree.

So, if anyone knows for sure... >>>


Viscount Brummbar was actually a member at the group's inception, so I'd say he knows for sure. :)



(only around since 1980)



From: otsisto <otsisto at SOCKET.NET>

Date: July 22, 2010 11:27:50 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: [CALONTIR] Nyther Dwee RE:  What does -tir mean?


-----Original Message-----

Wrong group, I believe.


"Coeur d'Ennui in Calontir (French for heart of boredom)"


I think the group you are thinking of is the Shire of Nyther Dwee (spelling

may be off)


"One of my favorite group names was created at a tournament in

South Downs (Atlanta, GA) in about AS VII.  At court the

citizens of a new group wished to make a presentation to Baron

Sven. The herald started to announce them, then paused and turned

to the leader, "I'm sorry m'lord, but I don't know the name of your

group." The response was, "Neither do we," in a fine Tennessee

accent. So the presentation from the incipient Shire of Nyther Dwee

was duly announced.  I've probably butchered the spelling, but they

liked the name and kept it."


Thank you though for helping me illustrate one of the reasons I am trying to

get the history behind all the SCA placenames written down, while we can.




Actually no. Back in `84 I heard the story and it was said to be Coeur

d'Ennui. It may most likely be that the person who told the story may have

heard the Nyther Dwee story and changed it to fit Coeur d'Ennui.

So what is "Nyther Dwee" current name? As I was looking for it and the

closets is Nant-Y-Derwyddon in Meridies which roughly translates to Nant =

ravine, gorge or brook & Derwyddon = to grind, we ground, or druids.





From: Steven Boyd <andrixos at EARTHLINK.NET>

Date: July 22, 2010 1:28:11 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Nyther Dwee RE: What does -tir mean?


-----Original Message-----

< closets is Nant-Y-Derwyddon in Meridies which roughly translates to Nant =

ravine, gorge or brook & Derwyddon = to grind, we ground, or druids.


De >


<< Actually, a bit more research led me to "Valley of the Swallows" which matches their arms.




I guess my source is too modern and not detailed.


gwenoliaid, llynciadau, ngwenoliaid, is what it says for swallows, llyncu for swallow but it could be swallow as in swallowing a pill and Derwyddon for druids.

Nant- brook, stream, ravine, or gorge



My source was affiliated with the group:






From: Alric the tall <baronalric at YAHOO.COM>

Date: July 22, 2010 1:52:26 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Forgotten Sea Origins - What does -tir mean?




Hertha wrote:

> I don't know of anyone presently active here who would remember that bit of

> early history.  I do know that very early on there was a Shire(?) of the

> Fountains and another shire or incipient shire in the same metro area.

> Don't know the name of it.


Hrothgar Wrote:

< It's been a while since I heard the stories but I'm thinking it was

Fountains and Forgotten Sea, and Forgotten Sea got their paperwork in

first despite Fountains being older. I'm not willing to bet money on

it though. >




Not sure I would qualify as active currently but the way I heard it many years ago, the original name for the shire south of the river was the Shire of Calontir (not sure if it was incipient or not)  and the one North of the river was the Shire of the Fountains.  Which were combined to make the Barony of Forgotten Sea.  When the Barony was being considered people were also talking about a region that needed a name and Calontir was very well liked for that, so it could not also be used for the Barony and a new name had to be chosen.


Not sure if it is true or just legend....


Alric the tall  



From: Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir at GMAIL.COM>

Date: July 22, 2010 2:40:37 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Origins   - What does -tir mean?


As to which "three rivers", listen to Brummbar, a founding member of the Barony from its preceding elements.


As to the arms of Three Rivers being "a rendering of the City's Coat of Arms", the statement is incorrect.


The City of St. Louis has a seal featuring a steamboat, the closest thing which exists to it having Arms.  Steamboats are not Period and not on the Three Rivers arms.


The City has a flag designed in the 1960s which features a fleur de lis and includes a pall wavy issuant from dexter, but the Baronial arms are not some version of that.


I was the baronial pursuivant at the time the present arms were adopted from about a dozen suggestions presented for consideration to the entire baronial populace by several people.


I did not create the design selected, but presented it as one among many.  I do not remember who created the present design, but the idea of three wavy lines coming together was present on several versions.  The opinion of Baroness Arwyn was very important, but it is not my recollection that this particular design was precisely hers.  I do recall that a colored sketch I made of this needed to be replaced by a better rendering before the design's qualities were generally recognizable and endorsed.  I then prepared the submission as selected with the advice of the populace.


At no time do I recall anyone intentionally setting out to make some version of the city flag, although I was aware of and pleased to see the related element of the pall wavy.  I suspect that the populace of the time might disagree that the Arms of Three Rivers are a version of the city flag.


Herr Thomas von Holthausen

Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir



From: Ro <wickedpict at YAHOO.COM>

Date: July 22, 2010 5:22:35 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Nyther Dwee RE:  What does -tir mean?




nant [nentydd, f.]

(n.) brook; gorge, ravine

(gorge) Nant is the kind of gorge with rocks


derwydd [-on, m.]

(n.) druid


Welsh in origin and basically Druids Gorge.


(n.) gwennol [gwenoliaid, f.], llwnc [llynciadau, m.]

Gwennol is the kind of swallow that builds nests


So there ya go.


Shajar, refugee from Meridies.


--- On Thu, 7/22/10, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at AUSTIN.RR.COM> wrote:

Okay, I'm lost. "Valley of the Swallows" applies to which group, Nant-Y-Derwyddon? So does Derwyddon mean swallows? instead of what was given below?




On Jul 22, 2010, at 11:50 AM, Steven Boyd wrote:

<<< Actually no. Back in `84 I heard the story and it was said to be Coeur d'Ennui. It may most likely be that the person who told the story may have heard the Nyther Dwee story and changed it to fit Coeur d'Ennui.

So what is "Nyther Dwee" current name? As I was looking for it and the

closets is Nant-Y-Derwyddon in Meridies which roughly translates to Nant = ravine, gorge or brook & Derwyddon = to grind, we ground, or druids.




Actually, a bit more research led me to "Valley of the

Swallows" which matches their arms.



who had lived for two years one group away from them

and never heard the story.



From: "David Backlin" <edrei at smythkepe.org>

Date: July 22, 2010 5:21:07 PM CDT

To: "Stefan li Rous" <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Re: Origins  


Smythkepe (mka Ft Smith AR)


Founded December 31, AS XXI (1986)


Name origins:

-One of the co-founders (Lord Willem Cleburne  aka Thomas the Begger) was a smith


-Fort Smith


THL Edrei the Quiet

Merchant and Adventurer



From: Stefhen Neal <branapmacha at yahoo.com>

Date: August 8, 2010 10:12:39 AM CDT

To: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Re: Shire of Loch Bais


The Shire of Loch Bais is what is mundanely known as and the area around Natchitoches, Louisiana. The original founders of the shire named it Loch Bais, which translates loosely to 'lake of death'.  The blazon for the device of the shire is: Per fess azure and sable, a laurel wreath Or sustained by a skeletal cubit arm palewise argent.  The reason for it is that there is a lake adjoining the city of Natchitoches, Sibly Lake.  Around the time of the shire's founding, the lake was drained of it's water, for health purposes as this is where the city draws most of its water.  While it was drained the authorities discovered a severed arm in the lake's mud - only the arm.  It was never identified or claimed.  That is from where the device was drawn from. A skeletal arm rising up from black water to the blue sky, clutching the laurel wreath to indicate a group.

Lord Bran Finn hua Neill



From: "Scott" <scat at cfl.rr.com>

Date: November 5, 2010 7:35:00 AM CDT

To: <stefan at florilegium.org>

Subject: Shire of Northover in GA


For Northover, the story is simple.  We were (I am no longer there—thanks to Katrina) in an area north of Lake Ponchatrain commonly known as the Northshore.

Someone, I believe that it was Baron Shoiel, asked me how to say “North of the Lake” in French.  I said “nord du lac” and it was an immediate hit.  I came home, did some quick research, and found an RCC mission north of Lake Superior and a camping area of Lake Geneva.  Unfortunately neither of those two area names were period and it turned out that a direction from something was not idiomatic in Standard French.  We did not wish a delay in getting our device registered so I suggested Northover (meaning northshore in Anglo-Saxon) as an acceptable holding name while I researched further and the shire agreed.  My further researches led to naught as fellow French onomasts—I am a member of Société Française d’Onomastique—assured me that “nord du lac” contained French words but was not a medieval or Renaissance French expression.  The shire seemed content with Northover so we kept it.  During our struggles to establish Nord du Lac we had carried banners with Nord du Lac and advertised meetings of Nord du Lac.  Curiously—or coincidentally—enough, we may have made an impression because a new subdivision in the heart of our area was named Nord du Lac.

Colm Dubh

Herald Extraordinaire

former herald for the Shire of Northover



From: Shane B <shaneb at ij.net>

Subject: [tri-temp] Fwd: [Medieval Trivia] Re: Looking for origins/meanings of SCA group names

Date: November 7, 2010 10:37:51 AM CST

To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com


In MedievalTrivia at yahoogroups.com, Stefan li Rous <shaneb at ...>

>(by way of Shane B <shaneb at ...>) wrote:

> > Can someone tell me how this new shire, Shire of Trisel, got it's

> > name? In other words, what is the meaning behind the name?


Baron Siegfried spoketh...


>The name wasn't our idea, it was handed to us by fiat. We has

>originally wanted to go with a Robin Hood oriented theme for the

>shire, given that we had a fair number of people interested in both

>IKAC and CA. Our first submission was "Gallows Oak", which was taken

>from the Errol Flynn movie. In it, the Gallows Oak was cited as the

>Merrie Mens' rallying / gathering point in Sherwood Forest.

>When we sent it up, it cleared kingdom well enough. But when the

>name made its way to the KS, she had a conniption, and notified

>Wreath that she wanted it returned, as she said she refused to

>approve a name she considered offensive. Wreath then returned it on

>the basis that the name could not be documented, correctly pointing

>out that the name was a Hollywood invention.

>I still disagree about it unregisterability (I could document

>Gallows Tree, Gallows Hill, etc), but the local Sensechal was more

>interested in getting SOMETHING registered, not getting into a

>pissing contest with the CoA and the kingdom. Which was not happy

>with the fact that the members from the group they had nuked years

>before hadn't had the good taste to go away and play elsewhere like

>they were supposed to. Kingdom put us through miles of pure hell and

>actively opposed the establishment of a shire down here for years . . .

>I then researched the actual name used in the various Gestes, and

>found that it was 'Trystel Tre'. I documented the use of the term

>'trystel / trystre' as a period word from which we derive tryst,

>which meant meeting or place of assignation. It was specifically

>used in period as a term meaning hunting station, or rally point for

>hunters to gather. We submitted 'Trystel Tre', but Wreath once again

>returned it on the basis that it was a literary term used only once,

>and ignored the support documentation I had sent with the submission

>showing similar usage.

>The LoAR gave 'Trisel' as a name which sounded like what we wanted,

>even though it had no meaning that was relevant to our wishes. The

>Seneschal said 'screw it, they say this will pass, go for it', as

>Kingdom, which had been opposing our formation for many years, was

>now pretty much out of excuses / hoops for us to jump through. We

>sent it up, and even then, there were efforts to derail the process

>at Kingdom (like withdrawing the submission at Laurel without

>notifying the local Seneschal).

>In any event, the name passed, and the device we designed was so

>utterly bland and innocuous (and meaningless) that no reason could

>be found to bounce it. Finally, Kingdom was left with no other

>choice than to either confirm us as a shire or tell us that we were

>bad people and that we should go away. As the latter would have

>required that someone actually put something down in writing (in

>Trimaris, 'Non Scriptum, Non Est' is used pro-actively), they chose

>to accede to our efforts and we were established in Court at spring Art/Sci.

>So the name has no meaning for us, is not what we wanted, it's what

>we were handed. We took it because we didn't want to go through

>another year or so of hassles and discouragement, pure and simple.

>The name we originally wanted, and the armory, did have meaning and

>a story, but we weren't permitted it. So we took what we were handed

>and consider ourselves lucky just not to be incipient any longer. I

>was Lymphad Herald for 4 years, and during my tenure, I never saw

>the degree of hassle with any other group that was even remotely

>similar to what we were put through.




To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "Catherine Koehler" hccartck at yahoo.com

Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:01 pm ((PST))


It does indeed have everything to do with the idea that we are the actual birthplace of the blues and we are as flat as molasses in the sunshine!  I was not here when the name was bantered about and I do believe that Cormac and Wolf (former flatter, now Iron Ox) were discussing ideas around an event in Memphis when the name was suggested.


I suggest that the ones who recall the whole story, not my feeble recollections, hop on the list with the story as they remember it!




--- On Sat, 1/29/11, Lori Wakefield <loriwakefield at bellsouth.net> wrote:

<<< Just a wild guess, but Aine could confirm, does the 'blue' part of the name have anything to do with mundane musical matters, such as delta blues?  I do believe there's a famous stretch of highway associated with said music and a museum dedicated to it in her area.


Lewen in 'sunny' Grey Niche >>>



To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "maccathalain at aol.com" maccathalain at aol.com maccathalain

Date: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:07 am ((PST))


Interesting to mention Iron Ox and place name history.  I was told  many,

many, many years ago by either Sinclair or Archon that Iron Ox was named  

thus because of the high content of iron oxide found in the local drinking

water at the time.


Anybody recall?



To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Iron Ox's  iron oxide was Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "jennet_tewkesbury" MistressJennet at gmail.com jennet_tewkesbury

Date: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:01 pm ((PST))


Here is Master Sinclair's response:  


Sure, I remember. Feel free to send this wherever - its truth.


When we started Iron Ox, we were part of Meridies - which has Black and White arms. Never seeing anything in black and white (I am willing to wager that few who read this have a black and white video set at home) and preferring the subtle colour pallate of gold and red, as I was drawing the device up (We were actually a Canton of Hammerhold at the time, as we owed a great deal to the Baron and Baroness of that group) - we were somewhat inspired by the name of Hammerhold as well as their award names - Dwarven hammer, for example.

Few things grow on Iron as well as rust - and the colour of rust is red. (Sort of). I think the name and the idea for the central device (Which was not a 'Celtic Ox' ) arose in conjunction with one another. This was not done in a day - I remember I found a necklace at the flea market of a longhorn type bovine, bought it, and drew the device using that for a pattern. (I thought it might be useful to have a ready made source of regalia - and admit to some fondness for longhorn cattle. They are tough - good meat, though). The water in that area has always been soft - runs around 2 on the hardness scale, someeones 1. The iron content of the water was neglible - unless you got some from a rusty pipe, I suppose.





To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "David Backlin" thledrei at gmail.com quiet2284

Date: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:05 pm ((PST))


Anything's better than "Unclaimed Lands!"





Or "no name" (Sine Nomine)  ;-)



<<< Okay, *Is* there an SCA group with the name "Sine Nomine"?  And is this

what it really means?


Stefan >>>


WAS. It was an Incipient Shire about 20 years ago centered around

Clarksville, AR. It later merged with Ben Reic (later called Beinntheine)

which has since dissolved.



To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "Brad Moore" mamluk at yahoo.com mamluk

Date: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:11 pm ((PST))


Its from the Latin Sine - "without" Nomine - "name", so "without or having no

name". It is correct usage of Latin, and it used to refer to a group up around

Clarksville, if I remember correctly.


Je Reste,




To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Iron Ox's  iron oxide was Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "Ingridr" kvcoolman at eatel.net ingridrthor

Date: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:05 am ((PST))


I was told that Iron Ox (iron oxide) was the rust off of Iron Mountain (Birmingham, named for the iron present in the montains which made B'ham a steel town).  Master Sinclair's response was rather classier, but the rust thing was the going story back in '98.


When I lived in (was exiled to) the Midrealm, I resided in the region of Pentamere, named for the 5 Great Lakes.  While I was there, a group split off from the Three Hills (Kalamazoo) area, and named themselves Westmere, for Lake Michigan to their west.  Their device has a field with 2 bear paws, because they live in Paw Paw, MI.





To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Iron Ox's  iron oxide was Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "jennet_tewkesbury" MistressJennet at gmail.com


Date: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:49 pm ((PST))


Mistress Evelyn added:

<<< It was IronOx because I was a chemist(rust is Iron Oxide) and we were the rust on the hammer of Hammerhold. We were very punny a the time. Of course, that gave us instant heraldry in the form of a red ox.

I still have the pewter ox necklace. But it was NEVER a celtic anything to start with.


(Evelyn du Monde, founding member of IronOx) >>>



To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Bleuflats and other SCA placenames

Posted by: "Waffle" kegage at netzero.com kegage

Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 12:47 pm ((PST))


<<< Lewen in 'sunny' Grey Niche  (And I don't care what anybody says, I still think the Baronial heraldry represents the pyramid standing on its head) >>>


Grey Niche name and heraldry:

The Grey Niche placename is pretty simple. As the group was in it's formative years it was was noticed that virtually everytime the group tried to do an outside activity it would either rain or get extremely overcast. That, and being located in the southwest corner of the state the name seemed to be rather obvious; the Grey Niche.


The reason for the heraldry on the other hand is ambiguous at best. No one seems to be able to be able to remember the whys and wherefores as to the design of the arms. Much speculation has been made about it, but an upside down pyramid is not one I have heard before. The current pyramid arena had not been built or was even on the drawing board when the arms and badge were passed, but is just as good a speculation as anything else.





From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>

Date: February 1, 2011 8:42:39 AM CST

To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com

Subject: Our Barony's place name


So far as the name is concerned, Dun Carraig means stone fort or cliff in Scots Gaelic.  It comes from the fact that in Calvert County, one of the 3 that make up the Barony, we have cliffs that contain substantial amounts of prehistoric marine materials.  All along the Chesapeake Bay, in many places there are sheer cliffs that meet the bay.


The heraldry (Per chevron gules crussily bottony and argent, a cross bottony within a laurel wreath gules) is derived from the arms of the state of Maryland, the only state that has truly heraldic arms.  On the Maryland arms, the arms of the Calvert and Crossland families. The Calvert arms are those of George Calvert, Lord Baltimore.  The Crossland arms are those of Alice Crossland, Lord Baltimore's mother.  She was the only child of her father and therefore inherited full rights to the arms.  The quartered arms have been used to represent Maryland since 1600.  Dun Carraig's arms are based on the Crossland portion of the device. We chose not to use the Calvert portion (paley sable and or, a bend counterchanged) as it would have been too difficult to develop a design based on that.





From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>

Date: February 2, 2011 11:18:25 AM CST

To: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Re: Our Barony's place name


It occurs to me that I really didn't translate it, just used "heraldese."  If there's anything you don't understand, let me know. The arms of our group are divided by a chevron (a pointy field division) and are red, sprinkled with crosses bottony (those ones with three little bumps on the end of each arm) on the top, and white on the bottom with a larger cross bottony surrounded by a laurel wreath, both of these being red.


Hope this helps.  By the way, our badge is a red seadog facing sinister (left).  You can see both the device and the badge on our web page, www.duncarraig.net.





Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 11:04:52 -0400 (EDT)

From: Devra <devra at aol.com>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] hare hare - sort of OT


I have read that the flesh of the hare is slightly bitter... but then there's coney (as in Coney Island, which is why the Canton of Brokenbridge has a hare rampaging on its arms, with a semi of bees, thus "Bugs Bunny"...


Devra (where IS that rock?)



Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:05:12 -0400

From: "Philip Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames


On Wed, 2011-05-25 at 02:43 -0500, Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< Groan... I assume this is a canton of Great Whyte Whey? Manhattan? But  

which borough? >>>


I believe the Canton of Whyt Whey is so named officially on the books,

but the name was originally conceived by the Viscount Edward Zifran of

Gendy, then mundanely pursuing a mundane career in New York City as a

not-so-humble thespian (with all due respect, a frequent career choice

for many a SCAdian making the move to New York on their road to the

fast-paced world of waiting tables and/or teaching) as The Canton Of The

Grate Whyte Whey. This, of course, harks back not only to the obvious

Broadway reference, but also to the old joke about the folk of Ostgardr

being simple cheese farmers (depending on minor spelling variations,

"Ostgardr" can be translated -- from two different Scandinavian

languages -- in two different wheys -- I mean ways, to wit, The Eastern

Marches or The Cheese Farm).  


<<< I'm not that familiar with NYC and where Coney Island  

is located. Is there a story behind the "Brokenbridge" part? >>>


Only, so far as I know, inasmuch as it's across a couple of bridges from

Whyt Whey (Brokenbridge is Brooklyn). I always pushed for it to be

called the Canton of Ebbet's Field, myself. Unfortunately, comparatively

few of the residents of either Whyt Whey or Brokenbridge at the time

were native New Yorkers, and tended not to get that particular reference

(Ebbet's Field was the home of the Brooklyn Dodgers).





Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:24:59 -0400

From: Carol Smith <eskesmith at hotmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames in The Crown Province of

        Ostgardr, East Kingdom


The Cantons of the Crown Province of Ostgardr(Greater New York metropolitan area) are:


Northpass (Westchester, Putnam. and lower Duchess  County, NY)

Whyte Whey (Manhattan, NYC) "We're just simple cheese farmers..."

BrokenBridge (Brooklyn, NYC) Have you seen the state of the bridges in the area?

Lions End (Nassau County, LI, NY)  "It's the place where the lions meet, it's not the place they sit on to eat."


The Barony of An Dubheaigainn is Suffolk County, LI, NY.  Rusted Woodlands and Frosted Hills are also close neighbors.





Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 09:59:31 -0500

From: Michael Gunter <dookgunthar at hotmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames in The Crown Province of

        Ostgardr, East Kingdom


<<< The Barony of An Dubheaigainn is Suffolk County, LI, NY. Rusted Woodlands and Frosted Hills are also close neighbors.


Brekke >>>


My apprentice used to live in An Dubheaigainn says it is pronounced, "Neitherdoowee".


Evidentally, once in a court the Herald got to the name and said, "I don't know how to pronounce this." to which the populace replied, "Neither do we!".





Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:22:49 -0400

From: Carol Smith <eskesmith at hotmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames in The Crown Province of

        Ostgardr, East Kingdom


That was a LOOONG time ago, I'm sure.


Here's my faking it: An Dubhaigeaiainn (corrected spelling, which you already caught); "An" as in "an", "Du" (long u) bhai as in "butter", "geai" as in "gee (hard "g")", and "a" as in "a", and "inn" as in "ann".  Accent is on "geai".




<<< My apprentice used to live in An Dubheaigainn says it is pronounced, "Neitherdoowee".


Evidentally, once in a court the Herald got to the name and said, "I don't know how to pronounce this." to which the populace replied, "Neither do we!".


Gunthar >>>                               



Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:09:44 +0000 (GMT)

From: galefridus at optimum.net

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames in The Crown Province of

        Ostgardr, East Kingdom


West of southern Ostgardr is Crown Lands.  There's some history there, but I don't know it.  West of the Crown Lands is the Barony of Settmour Swamp, whose lands include Somer-set and Mor-ris counties, plus the Great Swamp National Wildlife Refuge.  The Swamp also includes the entirety or pieces of several other counties, but I guess they didn't rate being included in the name.


-- Galefridus



Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 20:12:10 -0400 (EDT)

From: Devra <devra at aol.com>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP


<<< BrokenBridge (Brooklyn, NYC)  Have you seen the state of the bridges in the

area? >>>


Hey, if you were 125+ years old, would you look that good?  (gnarsh gnarsh) Anyway, Brokenbridge = Brooklyn Bridge, sort of.  We did think of having a local newsletter called "Troll Bridge" but wiser heads prevailed.


Devra, seneschal of the lovely Canton of Brokenbridge - and Brooklyn is a borough of NYC, not of Manhattan.... Five Boroughs for the Elven Kings Under the Sky...



Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:07:58 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames in The Crown Province of

        Ostgardr,     East Kingdom


I had heard a similar story about Coeur d'Ennui (Des Moines, IA) but the

phrase was "nor do we". Their coat of arms is Argent, a laurel wreath vert

within eight boars' heads couped in annulo gules (i.e. boar ring)





Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:04:54 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames


<<< Isn't their war cry: "Boar-Ring!"? >>>


I'm not sure what the war cry is as I have not been to a war.

Standing Stones, was registered as Shire of the Standing Stones but through

time of verbal laziness has lost "the", also due to mix up it got put into

the online armorial without "the". The original device was returned because

the laurel wreath was upside-down and the heralds of that time said there

was no such thing as beer steins foaming proper, so the guys used dolmans

instead of the steins and up righted the wreath.





Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:33:29 +0000

From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Treegirtsea


It's Tree-Girt-Sea, and it's a Canton of the Barony of Ayreton.  If you run into VERY old documents, especially hand calligraphied ones, it's sometimes referred to as The City on the Tree-Girt-Sea.

Chicago (and some of it's suburbs) is collectively the Barony of Ayreton.  It has 5 other Cantons:  Foxvale, Gret Gargoyles, Lochmorrow, Rokkehealden, and Vanished Wood.  


(And yes, that's in the Mid.  There is a Clicky Map here:


which is good for general info, though not SO good for specific territories.  It also gets names and statuses not-quite-right from time to time - For instance it DOES have Tree-Girt-Seas as "Province" which it is not, and all the other Cantons listed as Shires.  So it needs some tweaking, but it's pretty new).



Henry/Alex said:

<<< Tree-Girt-Sea actually hasn't been a province for about a decade  



After Grey Gargoyles had become a separate shire, and a couple of

other groups had grown up in the Chicago area, they all got together

in a new barony, which is named Ayreton (meaning Windy City). >>>


Okay, I'm getting confused. Does Tree-Girt-Sea not exist anymore? Or  

is it a barony or some other type of group, now? Or did it become the  

barony of Ayreton? If does still exist, is it treegirtsea? or Tree-



What *is* the SCA geography around Chicago? I'm assuming it is in the  

Midrealm, correct?





According to Mistress Sine ni Dheaghaidh Canton of Crois Brigte in the Barony of Sacred Stone in Atlantia was chosen because our newly formed canton was standing at a crossroads so to speak. It was also significant because the name of St. Brigit, which means "bright arrow" as well as "Exalted one". She is the Goddess of poetry, prophecy and the arts. She is the Patron of languages and the protector of smith craft. (blacksmiths, goldsmiths, silversmiths etc.)

      [From http://www.croisbrigte.org/history.htm  -Stefan]



From: K C Francis <katiracook at hotmail.com>

Date: May 31, 2011 4:55:30 PM CDT

To: <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] SCA placenames


The Shire of Caldarium is Marin County, California.  During the 60's this area was considered the hotbed of the sexual revolution and the hippies.  Symbols of this were hot tubs and peacock feathers, among others.  So as I understand it, a wooden tub (hot tub to those who know) between two peacock feathers was to play this up.  And the name means hot tub (I saw the Roman caldariums in Bath). This wasn't the original name of the group, but I cannot add anything on that. Apparently we were also known (Hilary of Serendip is supposed to have started this) as the "Land beyond the rainbows" and you do pass under rainbows as you enter the Waldo tunnel just after crossing the Golden Gate Bridge.   I thought we had a badge with two rainbows, but it appears it was an early device for the group, replaced in 1982.  

Thanks for gathering this delightful part of our history!

Katira al-Maghrebiyya



From: Dexter Guptill <3fgburner at gmail.com>

Date: September 11, 2011 6:02:23 AM CDT

To: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Re: [MR] kingdom history fact 12


I founded Stierbach in 1981, in Manassas, VA.  You may know that the

Yankee name for the first and second battles of Manassas is "Bull

Run", after the stream they had to cross to get to Manassas.  Anyway,

my merry little band of heathens and yahoos decided it would be fun to

call our activities the third Battle of Bull Run.  Stierbach is German

for "Bull [Stream / Creek / Brook / Run]".  The arms are Per Fess

Embattled of Three, Argent and gules, Three Bulls Courant [originally

in pale, now defaulted to 2 and 1] Counterchanged, between in Base a

Laurel Wreath Argent.  So, we have three Battle(ment)s, and three

Running Bulls.  We couldn't figure out how to actually get away with

blue and gray, so we went with what we could.






From: Janie Darby <briana491 at gmail.com>

Date: September 11, 2011 8:49:40 AM CDT

To: Wayne Remes <wremes at carolina.rr.com>

Cc: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>,  Atlantia maillist <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] kingdom history fact 12


And there is a placed named Stierbach in Germany. We had a resident who contacted us this summer.


Briana (proud retired Baroness of Stierbach)


On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Wayne Remes <wremes at carolina.rr.com> wrote:

<<< The Pun is Stierbach was originally founded in Manassas VA.  Home of the

American Civil War battles of the 1st and 2nd Manassas.  Stier is german for

Bull, and bach is german for creek, stream, brook (ie Run)...so the Barony

of Stierbach literally translates to...

wait for it....wait for it...


Bull Run.


Axel (former Seneschal of the Shire of Stierbach back in Pre-History). >>>



From: The Dark Lady <dark_lady_of_the_sidhe at yahoo.com>

Date: April 11, 2012 1:08:41 AM CDT

To: Ian Green <ianthegreen01 at gmail.com>

Cc: "stefanlirous at austin.rr.com" <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Re: Fwd: [SCA Newcomers] SCA group names


It is Baronial transition that the name is a corruption of the Norse for "Plains of the Yahara," The Yahara being the river that runs through the Isthmus in Madison. You can see the "vellir" name component in names like Thingvellir in Iceland. The catfish on our arms is from the catfish in the lakes and rivers around here - if you look at the heraldry right, the top and bottom blue fields are Lakes Mendota and Monona and the yellow strip the Isthmus. I'm not certain that's what was intended when the arms were made, but it would not surprise me in the least, considering the number of canting arms we had for the early members and guilds.


I hope that helps!



When he has obtained those things which are necessary to life, there is another alternative than to obtain the superfluities; and that is, to adventure on life now, his vacation from humbler toil having commenced. ---Thoreau


From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01 at gmail.com>

To: Eithne <dark_lady_of_the_sidhe at yahoo.com>

Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2012 5:07 PM

Subject: Fwd: [SCA Newcomers] SCA group names




A request for information regarding Jararvellir practices came across the SCANewcomers list.  I gave what information I knew, including how to pronounce the name of the Barony.  Stefan, the owner of Stefan's Florilegium wanted to know the history of the name.  I thought you might be able to help or would know people who would be able to help answer this question.


Ian the Green


---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>

Date: Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 2:38 PM

Subject: [SCA Newcomers] SCA group names

To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>



Ian the Green mentioned:

<<< The Jararvellir (pronounced Yara VET lur) has one of the best arts


practices in Northshield or did when I lived there 2.5 years ago.>>>


That's an interesting group name. However, I did a search on it in the

Florilegium and while I have a number of entries that mention the

group, none that explain the name.


Do you know, or can you find out, the origins of the name and what it

means if anything? Many SCA groups also have interesting heraldry that

goes along with the name or their origins.


I have, and try to continue to collect, this kind of info in a series

of Florilegium files which can be found in the SCA-STORIES section:

placenames-msg (110K) 10/ 4/00 Origins and meanings of SCA

placenames. Pt. 1



placenames2-msg (106K) 8/11/10 Origins and meanings of SCA

placenames. Pt. 2



placenames3-msg (40K) 8/ 6/11 Origins and meanings of SCA

placenames. Pt. 3



If you, or anyone else knows the history behind this, or other groups

not mentioned in these files, please email me with info so I can add it.


Also, feel free to forward this request to other people or SCA lists.





To: gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Small Grey Bear Trim for Sale

Posted by: "Aron the Dane" savalanst at yahoo.com savalanst

Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 7:21 am ((PDT))


<<..Small Grey Bear is one of your groups, right?>>


The Barony of Small Gray Bear comprises most of the central Arkansas area, including the Hot Springs area through the Incipient Canton of Southtower.  


We spell 'gray' with an 'a' as opposed to the nearby Barony of Grey Niche, which spells 'grey' with an 'e'.  This schism has been the cause of much conflict and strife between the two Baronies.  (Not really, but it's funny to say so.)  ;)


The Shire of Small Gray Bear was founded in September of 1978.  The name is formed from the last names of the three founders of the group.  The Shire became a Barony in 1993.


I don't have quick access to what the trim looks like, but you can see our arms on the Barony's website.  It's blue and white, and there are stars.  And a bear.  Surprise.  ;)




This concludes the useless trivia portion of today's email feed.



Seneschal, SGB



To: gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Small Grey Bear Trim for Sale

Posted by: "Melinda" mlaf at sbcglobal.net maybard

Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 11:34 pm ((PDT))


Small Grey Bear was named after the founding members.  I know that Maria the

Small was one of them.  Although still in the area, she seldom plays

anymore. I don't remember who the others are - before my time...





To: gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Small Grey Bear Trim for Sale

Posted by: "Beth Scott" sexy_british_accent57 at yahoo.com sexy_british_accent57

Date: Fri Jun 8, 2012 10:18 am ((PDT))


<<snip>>But what makes it "Small Grey Bear" trim?<</snip>>


It's called Small Gray Bear (sorry for the misspelling earlier) because it was designed specifically for the Barony of Small Gray Bear. The trim is blue and silver with the background being blue and the bear and star being silver (the device for SGB is a blue background with a silver bear in the center of a silver wreath and 3 silver stars surrounding).


Éilís ingen Cluaidh

Elizabeth Scott



From: "Melinda" <mlaf at sbcglobal.net>

Date: June 9, 2012 10:40:15 PM CDT

To: <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Cc: <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: Small Gray Bear founders....


From Marie the Small...


In 1978, Marie the Small, George Grey Wolf,  Edward du Gris, Bear, and James the Fair held the first meeting of what would become the Little Rock Group in the SCA.






From: David Backlin <thledrei at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Gleann Abhann] SCA placenames

Date: September 8, 2013 6:50:12 PM CDT

To: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>


Smythkepe is a variant of Fort Smith (we are Mundanely located in and around Fort Smith, AR )


There was a short-lived group in the Clarksville area by the name of Sine Nomine, or "no name". Rumor has it they could never decide on a proper name.  ;)


THL Edrei the Quiet

(mka David Backlin)

Merchant and Adventurer

thledrei at gmail.com



From: Celia Vencil <liliasluxuriescostumes at yahoo.com>

Subject: SCA placenames

Date: September 8, 2013 10:07:05 PM CDT

To: "StefanliRous at austin.rr.com" <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>


Kingdom of Trimaris, The Shire of Sudrholt


We started with a majority of members that claimed Norse personas. Our Herald suggested that we use old Norse terms. Sudr= north, and Holt= woodlands. Since we were located in the North east corner of the kingdom and most of the area is sparsely developed we all agreed to the suggestion.


Our device is also a reflection of our location. The two fields of Sable and Argent are divided by a bend sinister, wavy to represent the local river that runs through the county in which most of our zip codes are located. (Black Creek) The tree of life is also representative of the fact that most of the region is covered in Live Oak trees and it is adorned with acorns which represent new birth. Sorry for not remembering the correct emblazoning. We did not have any trouble getting either the name or the device passed.


Respectfully Submitted,

HL Lilias MacLeiod



From: "David C. Baker" <tampathespian at gmail.com>

To: <the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com>

Subject: RE: {TheTriskeleTavern} Interesting SCA group names

Date: November 20, 2014 at 11:29:08 PM CST


I can tell you about Bentonshire! I was the founding Herald.


When we formed the Shire, we wanted a name that honored the rich history of Brooksville, FL where we lived. One of our members, who worked at a local historical museum, told us that originally Brooksville was called Benton. We kicked around several possibilities until one of us suggested "Shire of Benton". I said let's make it more medieval like Hartfordshire or Worchestershire and call it Bentonshire! "The Shire of Bentonshire?!?" several asked me. "No," I said. "The 'shire' part is already IN the name! It's just 'Bentonshire!'"




Juan Ohoragarria Garcia Lopez de Mauleon



From: Azra Bint Seljuk <azrabintseljuk at yahoo.com>

Subject: Shire of Tri Os Interesting group names

Date: March 13, 2015 at 6:19:45 PM CDT

To: "StefanliRous at gmail.com" <StefanliRous at gmail.com>


<<< "Tri Os is very simple: an Os is the mouth of a river and there are three "river mouths" in St. Lucie and Martin Counties (Our official territory): the mouth of the Indian River (technically, a lagoon, but we chose to use river for this purpose), the St. Lucie River, and one more that I forget the name of. I vaguely recall that Os is Scandinavian in some manner.


Friar Jack could tell more if we could get hold of him. This is all I remember for now.  Sorry that it isn't better."


M. Homan/Lady Raven Dudley >>>


Lady Azra bint Seljuk

Mka Cathi Ferrara-Costa


<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org