placenames-msg - 10/4/00
Origins and meanings of SCA place names. Some of the stories behind them. This is the first of two files.
NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, child-stories-msg, you-know-msg, border-stories-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, placenames2-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Dafydd Ap Rhys
To: Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xero
Re: Group names
Date: 12 May 91 01:26:54
Unto Orianna vander Delft, greetings
You did ask about the story of groups names. When I first joined
the Society I was curious about some of the names in my neck of the woods,
so I asked about them. The Shire I currently live is Northkeep, Ansteorra
(Tulsa, Ok) Northkeep is the northern most group in Ansteorra. The Barony of
Eldern Hills (Lawton Ok) is located in the Arbuckle Mts. The Arbuckles are
one of the oldest Mountain Ranges in the world. There was a Shire of
Morrow's Keep (Ada, Oklahoma). The town of Ada was founded by one Ada
Morrow. The first Shire I belonged to was The Shire of Mooneshadow
(Stillwater Ok) I still haven't figured this one out. Mooneshadows neighbor
is the Barony of Weisenfeur(sp?) ( Oklahoma City ) I am told that
Weisenfeur roughly translates from German to "Burning wheat", which is a
darned good description of central Oklahoma. The oldest Barony in Northern
Ansteorra is the Barony of Namron (Norman Ok.) Namron is Norman backwards.
(sigh)
Yours in Service
Dafydd ap Rhys
From: Alex_Hart at mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart)
Date: 10 May 91 13:32:09 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Here in mundane Vancouver B.C.,the choice fell to Lions Gate,and although I was
not around in those days,it was probably an easy choice. Nearby,up in the hills
are two peaks which can be easily seen from most points around
Vancouver.Without too much imagination,the can be taken for couchant lions and
are indeed known as "The Lions".And as they look like the stone lions often
seen at gateways or entrances(you know sort of like garden gnomes in a way)
many things around are known as Lions Gate(a bridge and hospital come to mind
quickly).So ,Lions GAte was chosen.I do understand that in the early days there
were so many gentles with Russian personnae in the area there was thought of
clling it "Lions Gate in Russian" . Not in the Russian language but just as you
see it.Luckily ( I guess :-) ) saner (?) minds prevailed and the idea was
dropped in favour of the simpler Lions Gate.
Alastair the Eastern Traveller
Lions Gate,An Tir
From: tmf4387 at tamsun.tamu.edu (Michael Phelan (mka Michael Farlow))
Date: 13 May 91 16:03:06 GMT
Organization: Shire of the Shadowlands (Texas A&M Univ.)
Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xerox.COM writes:
>In working with Fridrikr on the Society Regnum, I found the names of groups to
>be quite fascinating. Some naming practices were very regional (for example,
>many of the south western and western US groups used Spanish names or
>translations, many of the groups in Drachenwald have germanic names). Others
>gave you no clue as to why a group was called that.
>
>It would be fascinating to find out why a group came up with the name they did.
>Some of this just came out on the Heralds talknet from Lord Arval in his
>listing of the East Kingdom Heraldic Titles and the reason for most of the
>titles being what they were.
>
>Anyone else want to share their group's "story"?
>
>Orianna vander Delft
From the desk of Michael Phelan of the Shadowlands does this missive bring
greetings to the fishers on the Rialto...
Mistress Orianna asked to hear of the story behind the names of the local
groups. I can relate the story of my own group and can probably guess at
one of the local barony's.
My local group is the Shire of the Shadowlands in the Kingdom of Ansteorra
(Long Live Queen Rowan!!) [editorial sidenote here---Duke Inman one the
Ansteorran Crown Tournament for his 5th time this weekend, so I guess the
Once and Everyother King lives on :-]. We (or should I say the originals?)
call ourselves that since the being located in Bryan/College Station Texas
(Where Texas A&M is), we are surrounded by baronies: Stargate (Houston) to
the Southeast, Bjournsbourg (San Antonio, owners of the BFT {Big F_cking Tent
at TFYC}) to the SW, Bryn Gwlad (Austin) to the West, Raven's Fort to the
East, Steppes (Dallas) and Elf Sea (Ft. Worth) to the north.
On Many of the known world maps, Baronies are depicted with two (2) towers
while shires and cantons have only one. The orginal Shire folk thought that
since we were surrounded by *ALL* of these towers, that we were in their
shadows, ergo, Shadowlands.
Also, the story that I like, and is an inside joke, is that we of the
Shadowlands are all a bunch of little mushrooms, since many like to keep
us in the dark and feed us sh_t.
In Service,
Michael Phelan
Deupty Seneschal/Public Relations
Shire of the Shadowlands, Ansteorra
From: justin at inmet.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Date: 13 May 91 18:20:15 GMT
Organization: The Internet
Re: Group names
Orianna asks where groups got their names from. The answer for Carolingia
becomes relatively obvious once you realize that Boston's most distinctive
geographic landmark is the Charles River. Thus, the name "Carolingia" comes
from the river (via Latin), and the pall wavy (a sort of drunken "Y" for the
non-heralds) on the device is representative of the river...
(And the title Golden Gryphon Pursuivant comes from the yellow Gryphons
that aren't on our device. Historical artifacts are so wonderful...)
-- Justin du Coeur
Philosopher of Carolingia
From: JCASE at pearl.tufts.EDU ("John H. Case")
Date: 14 May 91 18:27:33 GMT
A minor correction to Justin du Coeur's posting about the Carolingian name. The pall wavy on the arms and badges of Carolingia actually (I belive) is supposed to symbolize the congruence of the Charles and Mystic rivers, and the three areas the field is thus divided into symbolize the three counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, and Middlesex.
And yes, the Golden Gryphon Pursuivant is named for the gryphons that are not there. When the arms of Carolingia were proposed in the mists of time, they included a pair of gryphons sejant respectant on either side of the vertical arm of the pall. This was rejected by Council as being too hard to draw. When I, then glorying in the title "Pursuivant at Arms in Ordinary to the Barony of Carolingia" had to propose a title for my office, I proposed "Golden Gryphon" (keep quiet, you James Bond fans). Cou
ncil approved, the name was submitted, and I became the first "Golden Gryphon Pursuivant." One final note,Council also approved a badge for my office, consisting of the arms of Carolingia WITH the Gryphons, and without the laurel wreath. The badge was never submitted. The gryphons weretoo hard to draw.
-Taran of Windy Hill
first (and fourth) Golden Gryphon, now very thankfully retired from that office.
From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
Date: 14 May 91 19:11:00 GMT
Good day good gentles,
Being a short list of groups in the Southern East Kingdom and how they got
their names (if I'm wrong I know you'll correct me :) :
There are several groups in NJ that were named for local landmarks. Barren
Sands (Southern NJ Shore...below the Mason Dixon line :) is in the Pine Barrens
and most of the soil there is sand.
Carillon (Central NJ) was named that because all the founders lived within
sound of Princeton U's bell's carillon. Keep by the Endless Sea (a canton of
Carillon) is Bradley Beach, NJ right on the Atlantic Ocean.
Settmour Swamp (North Central NJ) is composed of SomerSET and MORris counties
(as well as a few others) and there is a real swamp right in the middle. There
are 2 cantons of Settmour, Gryphonwald and Marwick. I do not know how they
picked their names (Jessa? Mitchell?).
Iron Bog (South Jersey) has a lot of small lakes and areas that were
cranberry bogs (not sure about the iron part, maybe because of industry in
Camden, NJ).
Rusted Woodlands (North Jersey and South Eastern NY West of the Hudson) was
formed from the ashes of a group called Iron Forest, presumably named for the
juxtaposition of wooded land and the heavy industry in the area.
Whyt Whey (canton of Ostgardr in Manhattan... you know, Broadway, the Great
White Way) well, that says it all. Someone else can tell the naming of Ostgardr
(5 NYC boroughs + LI and 2 upstate counties...Dawyd?), I don't tell it well,
being a cheese farmer from 9-5 only (one of the translations of Ostgardr is
East Guard, another is cheese farm).
St. Pyr's Well (a defunct canton of Ostgardr on Staten Island) is named for
St. Pyr, an 8th century Welsh saint who died when he fell down a well. Really,
check the saint books. For more on the Hagiography of St. Pyr I have to defer
to Johannes v. N. (please tell the story 'Hannes, please?).
Winifred de Schyppewallebotham
(that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep
were washed")
Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY
From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Date: 15 May 91 01:42:33 GMT
Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA
The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to
call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone,
possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr
was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct
translation. Over the years, the populace replaced itself and the
pronunciation changed.
Fiacha,
Aquaterra, AnTir
"The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted
to call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East.
Someone, possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out
that Ostgardr was pronounced East guard and either looked like or
really was a direct translation." (Fiacha)
The original form was Estgard; I think that in that form it was
invented by Garanhir of Ness. I believe someone around at the time
who knew old Norse, probably Sir Eiolf Ericsson, proposed the
conversion to Ostgardr, meaning Eastern City or something
similar--analogous to Micklegardr (sp?) ("Big City"), which is what
the Norse called Constantinople.
At the time the name originated, New York was certainly not the only
group in the East.
Someone asked about my name. For the full story, see the letter in TI
46 starting on page 32. I am not the author; I wish I were.
I originally intended it as a variant on the name of Carahue of
Mauretania, a Moslem King in the Chanson de Geste Ogier le Danois.
Years later, when I had decided I ought to be more careful about such
things, I went to a friend who was a professional linguist and asked
him to find a plausible Arabic name that might have been
mispronounced "Cariadoc" by the Franks. The letter in T.I. 46,
starting on page 32, was the result; it was written, not by me, but
by my friend, and is a fine example of in persona writing.
Qari-al-Dhuq, known among the Franks as Cariadoc
From: PSCHROED at DREW.BITNET ("Schroeder, P. David")
Date: 14 May 91 04:55:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet
Subject: Group Naming Stories
I'd like to share a few stories about how groups got their names.
Since I joined the Society in 1975/XI I was part of the naming
process for four groups and two SCA-related publications.
The name for the Canton of Ivory Tower (Swarthmore College) was determined
by folks that had more experience in the Society than I did, but ALL of us
cheered the designation. It was a perfect fit for a small, cerebral liberal
arts school. The group "folded" a number of years ago, but the Barony of
Bhakail (Philadelphia) retains the name should it be resurrected.
Next I traveled to Princeton, NJ and served as the first seneschal of the
Shire (now the barony) of Carillion. That name was based on some digging
in Bullfinch's Mythology. Caer Leon, the fabled capital of King Arthur,
was supposed to have had a college, a seminary, and a school for singers.
Princeton had the university, the theological school, and a famous choir
college. It seemed a good fit, but I was advised by the wise Lady Melisande
de Belvoir (now Duchess) that the East already had plenty of "caers" and
I should try another tack. Later that week I heard the bells chiming
in churches near campus and realized that Norman invaders could easily
mis-hear Arthur's Caer Leon for the more familiar French word "Carillion."
Everyone else liked the story and that is why Carillion bears a bell on
its device.
The College of Grey Gargoyles (University of Chicago) was named for two
rather striking features of the place - first, there are gargoyles all
over, especially on a beautiful gate that forms the "official" entrance
to campus. Second, the color adjective not only referred to the color
of the stone the beasties were carved from, but also the name of the
President of the University back in the late 1970's, Hannah Gray.
[Is she still there, Cariadoc?] Charles Gray, her husband and a
period(?) historian served as our first advisor (on the condition
that the position be a sinecure). I find it rather amusing that
Tree-girt-sea (the province that now includes all of Chicago) got
started at U. of C. many years earlier (Cariadoc/DF was well known
around the place, especially with the folks who reserved space...)
and had migrated to the opposite end of town, about 15 miles away
by the time my lady and I arrived. Other groups can tell stories
of mass-migrations or population shifts. Carillion has moved toward
the east and Princeton is no longer within its official bounds!
Gray Gargoyles device was basically a blue shield with a "gray"
embattled fess between a "gray(argent)" gargolye and a laurel wreath.
We helped form a canton in the north suburbs of Pittsburgh when
we traveled again. Because of the unusual topography of the
Debateable Lands (lots of rivers, streams, hills, etc.) there
are bridges all over the place. Due to the "decaying infra-
structure" in the area, at the time the canton was forming there
were five bridges under repair and it seemed appropriate (since
an older group was folding at the same time) to call it the
Canton of Broken Bridges. The device of the canton featured a
gold shield with two green laurel wreaths between three broken
bridges in black.
The name for the Compleat Anachronist pamphlet series (which my
lady and I initiated during our term at TI Editors/SCA Chroniclers,
and which was ably nurtured by Viscountess Nige of the Cleftlands),
was chosen simply because I believed it had sufficient "scope" to
cover any topic that might come up. It probably owes a subconscious
dept to L. Sprague de Camp's "Incompleat Enchanter" series, but also
draws on titles of various late period compendiums.
Finally, the AEstel (newsletter for the new Eastern principality
of AEthelmearc) came from some historical/heraldic research. I
discovered that an aestel was the name for a small pointer used
by teachers in their instructions, but it also meant "little pikestaff."
Since the Pikestaff is the name of the East Kingdom's newsletter it
seemed an appropriate "tribute." From its first meaning "aestel"
also has the implication of "instructions" or "information."
[Eromene reminded me that the "pointer" an aestel was referring to
was small and was also used as a "bookmark." I'm missing my
original sources...]
My lady and I were off in Calontir when the new principality was
named, but it seems only fitting that the newsletter we'd named
should share the initial AE with the name of its territory.
[The first prince was originally from - Broken Bridges...]
I hope you've enjoyed hearing about the names that I have personally
helped to "coin." I'd like to hear other people tell of the origins
of their own group's name in future posts.
Many thanks,
Bertram of Bearington PSCHROED at drew.edu
From: Z4610816 at SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4610816)
Date: 15 May 91 09:33:47 GMT
Organization: The Internet
I tried to send this before, but I got back an "undeliverable" message.
My apologies if this duplicates earlier postings.
-istress
Greetings, Y'all. I offer another Ansteorran naming story, particularly
since I beieve there is no one else left in the society who knows it.
When we were organizing our poor shire, we sought inspiration in vain.
We were all newbies, and had no unity of ethnos. We had English, Norse,
Byzantine, and Generic personnas, so we needed a nice, non-commital name.
A mundane friend (who would not like to see his name remembered) looked
out my dorm room window at the 60' pines dripping with three weeks of
drizzle, and said "How about 'Graywood'." The spelling is still contro-
versial, with half the shire stubbornly spelling it "Greywood". My own
research ten years ago dated "grey" to the late seventeenth century, and
I am still waiting for one of the "e" partisans to prove me wrong.
-
Lord Lyelf Hrothbjartsson the Lame, S.C., AoA, Q.R.
AKA "Uncle Bob", the remaining Founding Father of Graywood.
Bob Lyle <Z4610816 at sfaustin.bitnet>
From: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu (Doug Brownell)
Date: 16 May 91 18:47:19 GMT
Organization: Institute for Nonlinear Science
Greetings from Thomas Brownwell in sunny Calafia;
David Rogoff writes:
>Just found this out last week:
>
> Kingdom of Caid is from the from groups that were in it when it formed:
>
> C- Califia (San Diego)
> A- Angles (Los Angeles)
> I- Isles (Santa Barbara)
> D- Dreiburgen (Riverside/San Bernadino)
It just so happened that in arabic (I think) the word caid means
fortress. I have a 1938 english dictionary, and it lists caid by
this definition.
A bit of trivia -- The crown prince of Caid is referred to as
al-Caid, and I had always assumed that it meant something as simple
as "The Caid" or "Of Caid" (which it probably does), but my
dictionary lists alcaid as being the keeper of the fortress, almost
like Castellan or Major-General. Someone had a good knowledge of
english, or a lot of luck in choosing that title.
Enough for now. Thomas
Douglas M. Brownell | Thomas Brownwell
Institute for Nonlinear Science, R-002 | Barony of Calafia
University of California, San Diego | Kingdom of Caid
La Jolla, CA 92093 |
| Anachronist (noun):
Internet: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu | Out of time;
dbrownell at ucsd.edu | Gotta go!
From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 15 May 91 13:48:44 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.