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placenames-msg - 10/4/00


Origins and meanings of SCA place names. Some of the stories behind them. This is the first of two files.


NOTE: See also the files: Branch-Names-art, placenames2-msg, placenames3-msg, SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, child-stories-msg, you-know-msg, border-stories-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



Note: This is the third of the 3 placenames-msg files in the Florilegium. I am still looking for the stories behind the SCA group names not given in these files. If you know the story behind a name not given in these files, please send me an email with the group name and story so that I may add it to these files.





From: Dafydd Ap Rhys

To: Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xero

Re: Group names

Date: 12 May 91 01:26:54


Unto Orianna vander Delft, greetings


       You did ask about the story of groups names.  When I first joined

the Society I was curious about some of the names in my neck of the woods,

so I asked about them. The Shire I currently live is Northkeep, Ansteorra

(Tulsa, Ok) Northkeep is the northern most group in Ansteorra. The Barony of

Eldern Hills (Lawton Ok) is located in the Arbuckle Mts. The Arbuckles are

one of the oldest Mountain Ranges in the world. There was a Shire of

Morrow's Keep (Ada, Oklahoma). The town of Ada was founded by one Ada

Morrow. The first Shire I belonged to was The Shire of Mooneshadow

(Stillwater Ok) I still haven't figured this one out. Mooneshadows neighbor

is the Barony of Weisenfeur(sp?) ( Oklahoma City ) I am told that

Weisenfeur roughly translates from German to "Burning wheat", which is a

darned good description of central Oklahoma. The oldest Barony in Northern

Ansteorra is the Barony of Namron (Norman Ok.) Namron is Norman backwards.



               Yours in Service

                       Dafydd ap Rhys



From: Alex_Hart at mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart)

Date: 10 May 91 13:32:09 GMT

Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada


Here in mundane Vancouver B.C.,the choice fell to Lions Gate,and although I was

not around in those days,it was probably an easy choice. Nearby,up in the hills

are two peaks which can be easily seen from most points around

Vancouver.Without too much imagination,the can be taken for couchant lions and

are indeed known as "The Lions".And as they look like the stone lions often

seen at gateways or entrances(you know sort of like garden gnomes in a way)

many things around are known as Lions Gate(a bridge and hospital come to mind

quickly).So ,Lions GAte was chosen.I do understand that in the early days there

were so many gentles with Russian personnae in the area there was thought of

clling it "Lions Gate in Russian" . Not in the Russian language but just as you

see it.Luckily ( I guess :-) ) saner (?) minds prevailed and the idea was

dropped in favour of the simpler Lions Gate.


Alastair the Eastern Traveller

Lions Gate,An Tir



From: tmf4387 at tamsun.tamu.edu (Michael Phelan (mka Michael Farlow))

Date: 13 May 91 16:03:06 GMT

Organization: Shire of the Shadowlands (Texas A&M Univ.)


Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xerox.COM writes:

>In working with Fridrikr on the Society Regnum, I found the names of groups to

>be quite fascinating.  Some naming practices were very regional (for example,

>many of the south western and western US groups used Spanish names or

>translations, many of the groups in Drachenwald have germanic names).  Others

>gave you no clue as to why a group was called that.

>It would be fascinating to find out why a group came up with the name they did.

>Some of this just came out on the Heralds talknet from Lord Arval in his

>listing of the East Kingdom Heraldic Titles and the reason for most of the

>titles being what they were.

>Anyone else want to share their group's "story"?

>Orianna vander Delft


From the desk of Michael Phelan of the Shadowlands does this missive bring

greetings to the fishers on the Rialto...


Mistress Orianna asked to hear of the story behind the names of the local

groups. I can relate the story of my own group and can probably guess at

one of the local barony's.


My local group is the Shire of the Shadowlands in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

(Long Live Queen Rowan!!)  [editorial sidenote here---Duke Inman one the

Ansteorran Crown Tournament for his 5th time this weekend, so I guess the

Once and Everyother King lives on  :-].  We (or should I say the originals?)

call ourselves that since the being located in Bryan/College Station Texas

(Where Texas A&M is), we are surrounded by baronies:  Stargate (Houston) to

the Southeast, Bjournsbourg (San Antonio, owners of the BFT {Big F_cking Tent

at TFYC}) to the SW, Bryn Gwlad (Austin) to the West, Raven's Fort to the

East, Steppes (Dallas) and Elf Sea (Ft. Worth) to the north.


On Many of the known world maps, Baronies are depicted with two (2) towers

while shires and cantons have only one.  The orginal Shire folk thought that

since we were surrounded by *ALL* of these towers, that we were in their

shadows, ergo, Shadowlands.


Also, the story that I like, and is an inside joke, is that we of the

Shadowlands are all a bunch of little mushrooms, since many like to keep

us in the dark and feed us sh_t.


In Service,


Michael Phelan

Deupty Seneschal/Public Relations

Shire of the Shadowlands, Ansteorra



From: justin at inmet.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)

Date: 13 May 91 18:20:15 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Re: Group names


Orianna asks where groups got their names from. The answer for Carolingia

becomes relatively obvious once you realize that Boston's most distinctive

geographic landmark is the Charles River. Thus, the name "Carolingia" comes

from the river (via Latin), and the pall wavy (a sort of drunken "Y" for the

non-heralds) on the device is representative of the river...


(And the title Golden Gryphon Pursuivant comes from the yellow Gryphons

that aren't on our device. Historical artifacts are so wonderful...)


                               -- Justin du Coeur

                                  Philosopher of Carolingia



From: JCASE at pearl.tufts.EDU ("John H. Case")

Date: 14 May 91 18:27:33 GMT


A minor correction to Justin du Coeur's posting about the Carolingian name.  The pall wavy on the arms and badges of Carolingia actually (I belive) is supposed to symbolize the congruence of the Charles and Mystic rivers, and the three areas the field is thus divided into symbolize the three counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, and Middlesex.


And yes, the Golden Gryphon Pursuivant is named for the gryphons that are not there.  When the arms of Carolingia were proposed in the mists of time, they included a pair of gryphons sejant respectant on either side of the vertical arm of the pall.  This was rejected by Council as being too hard to draw.   When I, then glorying in the title "Pursuivant at Arms in Ordinary to the Barony of Carolingia" had to  propose a  title for my office, I proposed "Golden Gryphon" (keep quiet, you James Bond fans).  Cou

ncil approved, the name was submitted, and I became the first "Golden Gryphon Pursuivant."  One final note,Council also approved a badge for my office, consisting of the arms of Carolingia WITH the Gryphons, and without the laurel wreath.  The badge was never submitted.  The gryphons weretoo hard to draw.


-Taran of Windy Hill

first (and fourth) Golden Gryphon, now very thankfully retired from  that office.



From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")

Date: 14 May 91 19:11:00 GMT


Good day good gentles,

Being a short list of groups in the Southern East Kingdom and how they got

their names (if I'm wrong I know you'll correct me :) :

There are several groups in NJ that were named for local landmarks. Barren

Sands (Southern NJ Shore...below the Mason Dixon line :) is in the Pine Barrens

and most of the soil there is sand.

Carillon (Central NJ) was named that because all the founders lived within

sound of Princeton U's bell's carillon. Keep by the Endless Sea (a canton of

Carillon) is Bradley Beach, NJ right on the Atlantic Ocean.

Settmour Swamp (North Central NJ) is composed of SomerSET and MORris counties

(as well as a few others) and there is a real swamp right in the middle. There

are 2 cantons of Settmour, Gryphonwald and Marwick. I do not know how they

picked their names (Jessa? Mitchell?).

Iron Bog (South Jersey) has a lot of small lakes and areas that were

cranberry bogs (not sure about the iron part, maybe because of industry in

Camden, NJ).

Rusted Woodlands (North Jersey and South Eastern NY West of the Hudson) was

formed from the ashes of a group called Iron Forest, presumably named for the

juxtaposition of wooded land and the heavy industry in the area.

Whyt Whey (canton of Ostgardr in Manhattan... you know, Broadway, the Great

White Way) well, that says it all. Someone else can tell the naming of Ostgardr

(5 NYC boroughs + LI and 2 upstate counties...Dawyd?), I don't tell it well,

being a cheese farmer from 9-5 only (one of the translations of Ostgardr is

East Guard, another is cheese farm).

St. Pyr's Well (a defunct canton of Ostgardr on Staten Island) is named for

St. Pyr, an 8th century Welsh saint who died when he fell down a well. Really,

check the saint books. For more on the Hagiography of St. Pyr I have to defer

to Johannes v. N. (please tell the story 'Hannes, please?).


Winifred de Schyppewallebotham

(that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep

were washed")

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY



From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Date: 15 May 91 01:42:33 GMT

Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA


The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to

call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone,

possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr

was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct

translation. Over the years, the populace replaced itself and the

pronunciation changed.



       Aquaterra, AnTir



"The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted

to call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East.

Someone, possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out

that Ostgardr was pronounced East guard and either looked like or

really was a direct translation." (Fiacha)


The original form was Estgard; I think that in that form it was

invented by Garanhir of Ness. I believe someone around at the time

who knew old Norse, probably Sir Eiolf Ericsson, proposed the

conversion to Ostgardr, meaning Eastern City or something

similar--analogous to Micklegardr (sp?) ("Big City"), which is what

the Norse called Constantinople.


At the time the name originated, New York was certainly not the only

group in the East.


Someone asked about my name. For the full story, see the letter in TI

46 starting on page 32. I am not the author; I wish I were.


I originally intended it as a variant on the name of Carahue of

Mauretania, a Moslem King in the Chanson de Geste Ogier le Danois.

Years later, when I had decided I ought to be more careful about such

things, I went to a friend who was a professional linguist and asked

him to find a plausible Arabic name that might have been

mispronounced "Cariadoc" by the Franks. The letter in T.I. 46,

starting on page 32, was the result; it was written, not by me, but

by my friend, and is a fine example of in persona writing.


Qari-al-Dhuq, known among the Franks as Cariadoc



From: PSCHROED at DREW.BITNET ("Schroeder, P. David")

Date: 14 May 91 04:55:00 GMT

Organization: The Internet

Subject: Group Naming Stories


I'd like to share a few stories about how groups got their names.

Since I joined the Society in 1975/XI I was part of the naming

process for four groups and two SCA-related publications.


The name for the Canton of Ivory Tower (Swarthmore College) was determined

by folks that had more experience in the Society than I did, but ALL of us

cheered the designation. It was a perfect fit for a small, cerebral liberal

arts school.  The group "folded" a number of years ago, but the Barony of

Bhakail (Philadelphia) retains the name should it be resurrected.


Next I traveled to Princeton, NJ and served as the first seneschal of the

Shire (now the barony) of Carillion.  That name was based on some digging

in Bullfinch's Mythology.  Caer Leon, the fabled capital of King Arthur,

was supposed to have had a college, a seminary, and a school for singers.

Princeton had the university, the theological school, and a famous choir

college. It seemed a good fit, but I was advised by the wise Lady Melisande

de Belvoir (now Duchess) that the East already had plenty of "caers" and

I should try another tack.  Later that week I heard the bells chiming

in churches near campus and realized that Norman invaders could easily

mis-hear Arthur's Caer Leon for the more familiar French word "Carillion."

Everyone else liked the story and that is why Carillion bears a bell on

its device.


The College of Grey Gargoyles (University of Chicago) was named for two

rather striking features of the place - first, there are gargoyles all

over, especially on a beautiful gate that forms the "official" entrance

to campus.  Second, the color adjective not only referred to the color

of the stone the beasties were carved from, but also the name of the

President of the University back in the late 1970's, Hannah Gray.

[Is she still there, Cariadoc?]  Charles Gray, her husband and a

period(?) historian served as our first advisor (on the condition

that the position be a sinecure).  I find it rather amusing that

Tree-girt-sea (the province that now includes all of Chicago) got

started at U. of C. many years earlier (Cariadoc/DF was well known

around the place, especially with the folks who reserved space...)

and had migrated to the opposite end of town, about 15 miles away

by the time my lady and I arrived.  Other groups can tell stories

of mass-migrations or population shifts.  Carillion has moved toward

the east and Princeton is no longer within its official bounds!

Gray Gargoyles device was basically a blue shield with a "gray"

embattled fess between a "gray(argent)" gargolye and a laurel wreath.


We helped form a canton in the north suburbs of Pittsburgh when

we traveled again.  Because of the unusual topography of the

Debateable Lands (lots of rivers, streams, hills, etc.) there

are bridges all over the place.  Due to the "decaying infra-

structure" in the area, at the time the canton was forming there

were five bridges under repair and it seemed appropriate (since

an older group was folding at the same time) to call it the

Canton of Broken Bridges.  The device of the canton featured a

gold shield with two green laurel wreaths between three broken

bridges in black.


The name for the Compleat Anachronist pamphlet series (which my

lady and I initiated during our term at TI Editors/SCA Chroniclers,

and which was ably nurtured by Viscountess Nige of the Cleftlands),

was chosen simply because I believed it had sufficient "scope" to

cover any topic that might come up.  It probably owes a subconscious

dept to L. Sprague de Camp's "Incompleat Enchanter" series, but also

draws on titles of various late period compendiums.


Finally, the AEstel (newsletter for the new Eastern principality

of AEthelmearc) came from some historical/heraldic research.  I

discovered that an aestel was the name for a small pointer used

by teachers in their instructions, but it also meant "little pikestaff."

Since the Pikestaff is the name of the East Kingdom's newsletter it

seemed an appropriate "tribute."  From its first meaning "aestel"

also has the implication of "instructions" or "information."


[Eromene reminded me that the "pointer" an aestel was referring to

was small and was also used as a "bookmark."  I'm missing my

original sources...]


My lady and I were off in Calontir when the new principality was

named, but it seems only fitting that the newsletter we'd named

should share the initial AE with the name of its territory.

[The first prince was originally from - Broken Bridges...]


I hope you've enjoyed hearing about the names that I have personally

helped to "coin."  I'd like to hear other people tell of the origins

of their own group's name in future posts.


Many thanks,

Bertram of Bearington                      PSCHROED at drew.edu



From: Z4610816 at SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4610816)

Date: 15 May 91 09:33:47 GMT

Organization: The Internet


I tried to send this before, but I got back an "undeliverable" message.

My apologies if this duplicates earlier postings.


Greetings, Y'all.  I offer another Ansteorran naming story, particularly

since I beieve there is no one else left in the society who knows it.

When we were organizing our poor shire, we sought inspiration in vain.

We were all newbies, and had no unity of ethnos.  We had English, Norse,

Byzantine, and Generic personnas, so we needed a nice, non-commital name.

A mundane friend (who would not like to see his name remembered) looked

out my dorm room window at the 60' pines dripping with three weeks of

drizzle, and said "How about 'Graywood'."  The spelling is still contro-

versial, with half the shire stubbornly spelling it "Greywood".  My own

research ten years ago dated "grey" to the late seventeenth century, and

I am still waiting for one of the "e" partisans to prove me wrong.


     Lord Lyelf Hrothbjartsson the Lame, S.C., AoA, Q.R.

      AKA "Uncle Bob", the remaining Founding Father of Graywood.


Bob Lyle <Z4610816 at sfaustin.bitnet>



From: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu (Doug Brownell)

Date: 16 May 91 18:47:19 GMT

Organization: Institute for Nonlinear Science


Greetings from Thomas Brownwell in sunny Calafia;


David Rogoff writes:

>Just found this out last week:

> Kingdom of Caid  is from the from groups that were in it when it formed:


>    C-  Califia      (San Diego)

>    A-  Angles       (Los Angeles)

>    I-  Isles        (Santa Barbara)

>    D-  Dreiburgen   (Riverside/San Bernadino)


It just so happened that in arabic (I think) the word caid means

fortress. I have a 1938 english dictionary, and it lists caid by

this definition.


A bit of trivia --  The crown prince of Caid is referred to as

al-Caid, and I had always assumed that it meant something as simple

as "The Caid" or "Of Caid" (which it probably does), but my

dictionary lists alcaid as being the keeper of the fortress, almost

like Castellan or Major-General.  Someone had a good knowledge of

english, or a lot of luck in choosing that title.  


Enough for now.  Thomas


Douglas M. Brownell                     |  Thomas Brownwell

Institute for Nonlinear Science, R-002  |  Barony of Calafia

University of California, San Diego     |  Kingdom of Caid

La Jolla, CA 92093                      |

                                       |  Anachronist (noun):

Internet: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu            |  Out of time;

         dbrownell at ucsd.edu            |  Gotta go!



From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman)

Date: 15 May 91 13:48:44 GMT

Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


Greetings from Arval!


This is the story of the name of Ostgardr, as best I know it.  I wasn't

there, so some of it is probably mythology, but so what?  Myths make good



The East Kingdom, of course, started in NYC.  For a rather long time, what

with more than half the kings living in NY, most of the peers being in NY,

and like that, NY was simply referred to as "the East".  As other groups

formed (Carolingia, Mrqud, Bhakail, etc.), it came to be known as "The

Crown Province."  It was ruled directly by the Crown.  At some point, the

fact that the Crown Province had no name became something of a joke, and it

came to be known as "The Nameless Province."  An actual name was, indeed,

coined by Sir Garanhir, as Cariadoc recounted.  "Ostgardr" (properly

spelled with a stroke through the O and with the Norse lower-case thorn

instead of a d, means roughly "East Castle" or "East City".  It is

pronounced vaguely like "OOST-garth(r)", with the final r nearly silent.


A common joke on the name (of which I do not know the origin) is that if

you spell it "Ostgard", it means "cheese farm."  To this day, the

Ostgardians occasionally describe themselves as the Happy Cheesefarmers.





From: hamilton at adi.COM (Cindy Hamilton)

Date: 15 May 91 14:33:51 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Unto the Fisherfolk of the Rialto,

from Angelica Paganelli,

her most courteous greetings:


The Shire of Cynnabar (in the Middle Kingdom) has a name with meaning on

several levels.  Cinnabar (of which Cynnabar is an alternate spelling) is

a mercuric ore that can be found near Ann Arbor.  It is familiar as a

reddish mineral carved into jewelry in China.  Translated, it means

"dragons' blood" (or perhaps that's the Chinese name for the mineral--it's

been about ten years since I heard this stuff).  As the dragon is symbolic

of the Middle Kingdom, Cynnabar is the heart's blood of the kingdom

(doo-dah, doo-dah).  [I'm a little cynical about this whole nationalism



We had some trouble in trying to register this name; there is a science

fiction novel about a city called Cinnabar where odd thing happen.  (I

haven't read it myself, actually.)  We had to do a quick soft shoe for

the College of Heralds, and convince them we didn't intend to style our

city after the fictional one; we also wrote the author of the novel and

asked his permission to use his copyrighted city's name.  He acceded.


Now that I think of it, the registered name of Cynnabar is the Royal Burgh

of Cynnabar.  I think this was some effort at making it plain that the

Free and Peace-Loving (but Militarily Strong) Shire of Cynnabar is not

under the thumb of the Squire-Crushing Barony of Northwoods.  Also, there

was some sentiment that "Shire" seemed a little too rural for an essentially

urban group.


That's all I can remember of it.


Written this 15th Day of May, A.S. XXVI,

at Casa Salone Rigararsi, in the Shire of Cynnabar, Middle Kingdom


Cindy Hamilton

Applied Dynamics International

3800 Stone School Road

Ann Arbor, MI  48108


hamilton at adi.com

hamilton at amara.uucp




From: rogoff at teradyne.UUCP (David Rogoff)

Date: 15 May 91 18:11:17 GMT

Organization: Teradyne STD, CAE


Just found this out last week:


Kingdom of Caid  is from the from groups that were in it when it formed:

   C-  Califia      (San Diego)

   A-  Angles       (Los Angeles)

   I-  Isles        (Santa Barbara)

   D-  Dreiburgen   (Riverside/San Bernadino)


Also, my barony, Altavia (Pronounced Al-tay-vee-uh) is a play

on the spanish alta-via or high-way because of all the highways crossing

the San Fernando Valley.


David Rogoff (in between personas)



From: 0003900943 at mcimail.COM (Marla Lecin)

Date: 15 May 91 18:35:00 GMT

Organization: The Internet

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


Greetings unto the Rialto, from Baroness Jessa d'Avondale.


As to group names in New Jersey:


I can't say for sure about Rusted Woodlands (North NJ), but in the area

of Iron Bog (SW NJ) they really did mine for iron ore at one time.


When we started our canton, Marwick, several years ago:  Master Christopher

Darras wanted a nifty name having to do with Saint Hugh, whose symbol

is a swan, since it's so easy to buy swan-shaped items (serving pieces, etc).

No one really agreed with him, and at one of our first meetings we spent

time going through lots of books.  We tried for something Netherland-ish

(low countries, and all) and someone came up with Nethermoor (we are a canton

of Settmour *Swamp*, after all).


This led to inevitable thoughts of E.A. Poe, and when I said, "Well, why

just not design a device with a raven on it" (sarcastically), some people

thought that was the way to go.  A more vocal portion of the group felt

that puns were fine, but not puns based on 19th century authors.  


Next we tried putting all the possible names on a list, and asking each person

to cross off any name they absolutely could not live with.  I was one of the

people backing "Marwick", "Fenwick", and similar names. They mean something

like "the village in the moors/swamp"; I preferred them because they sounded

more like real place-names to me.



Marla_Lecin at mcimail.com



From: justin at inmet.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)

Date: 15 May 91 19:58:09 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Fiacha writes:

>The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to

>call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone,

>possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr

>was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct

>translation. Over the years, the populace replaced itself and the

>pronunciation changed.


Well, Ostgardr certainly wasn't the only group in the East when it got

its name; when NYC was all there was to the East Kingdom, it simply called

itself "The East Kingdom". (Indeed, in those early days, the Crown was

actually restricted to people who lived within -- I think -- 50 miles

of the City.)


As I understand it, once the Baronies (Carolingia, Bhakail, Myrkwode,

probably one or two others I'm forgetting) started popping up, "The East

Kingdom" was loathe to cease calling itself that, and started referring

to itself as The Capital Province, or some such. People from other groups

started calling it "The Nameless Province", which didn't sit too well,

so it eventually took on the name Ostgardr. (I gather that the "cheese

farmer" confusion relates to whether or not the appropriate diacritical

marks are on the O...) It still retains the possibly-unique designation

of "Crown Province", last I checked...


(Caveat: the above is strictly from memory of The Files, plus hearsay

stories. But it *sounds* good, anyway...)


                               -- Justin du Coeur

                                  Chief Paper-Lugger for the EK Historian



From: wlinden at msb.com (Alfgar the Sententious)

Date: 16 May 91 03:49:31 GMT

Organization: Meetpoint Station BBS


In <May. at paul.rutgers.edu> joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman) writes:


>Greetings from Arval!


>and like that, NY was simply referred to as "the East".  As other groups

>formed (Carolingia, Mrqud, Bhakail, etc.), it came to be known as "The

>Crown Province."  It was ruled directly by the Crown.  At some point, the

Actually, it became an annoyance that people in such far reaches as Beyond

the Mountain kept referring to visitors "from the East Kingdom".

>fact that the Crown Province had no name became something of a joke, and it

>came to be known as "The Nameless Province."  An actual name was, indeed,

This was decreed as the equivalent of a "holding name" when it became an

issue, until the people could agree on something.

>coined by Sir Garanhir, as Cariadoc recounted.  "Ostgardr" (properly

What Garanhir coined, and will tell you most strongly, was "Estgard"

(apparently from vague associations with Midgard, Asgard, etc.) However, on

the day of the meeting to consider it, Sir Eiolf Eriksson picked the

occasion to emerge from the woodwork (and has not been seen since.) He

complained that "Estgard" was not authentic Old Norse, and browbeat the

meeting into that thing which can only be pronounced by a full-blooded

Icelander. The question nobody dared ask was "Who said it was supposed to

be Old Norse?"

   I understand we were told later by a credentialled scholar that

"Ostgardr" is not proper Norse either. Sigh....


Will Linden                                 MCI: WLINDEN

Internet: wlinden at msb.com             "On to the castle, to kill the royal

UUCP: ...uupsi!mpoint!wlinden          family, and claim the throne that

Compuserve: 72737,2150                 isn't mine by right!"



From: nomad at watson.ibm.com (Lee 'nomad' Damon)

Date: 17 May 91 13:47:19 GMT

Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, NY


Unto the Fisherfolk of the Rialto, Greetings!


The Freehold of Turris Nimborum (aka Wet or soggy Tower) was named for

the fact that it was on a college campus (Ivory Tower type things) in

Oregon. It was not unusual for our events to be rained on at least

once per event.


It was formed when the local Graff told a friend of mine "You _will_

start a group on campus." My friend was the first seneschal, I was the

second. We had close ties to the local shire (Coeur du Val, which

is named from the city we were in - Corvallis).


I'm not going to try to blazon the device, but basically it is a tower

superimposed over three wavy blue lines.


I've no idea if the group still exists, but it was going strong when

I left there in '88.


On a different note, the shire that I'm now a member of wanted

to call themselves "Val Cour" but were told they had a conflict

with a far off shire... the shire of Coeur du Val. Strange

coincidences abound, as only a few months after this obscure

An Tirian shire was brought to their attention, I move into the

area. Who'd'a thunk it. :-)


Laurus aka nomad mka Lee Damon



From: cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.COM (Insignificant Pondscum)

Date: 20 May 91 22:23:20 GMT

Organization: The Internet


To Keradwc and anybody else who's interested:


Gorgonoth (canton of Angels), founded by Waldt and Alison

von Markheim became the Barony of Dreibergen with

Alison and Waldt as first Baroness and Baron.  They

called it Dreibergen because of the three big mountains

within the Barony's borders : Mount San Gregorio, Mount

San Jacinto, and (!) Mount Baldy (!).  Now, all of you

present and former caidans (of which I am one too!) are

probably thinking: but Mount Baldy's in Heatherwine!?!


Well, Mount Baldy is in Heatherwine, but Heatherwine

wasn't around when Dreibergen was founded.  The area

that makes up Heatherwine today was originally part of

Dreibergen. That territory was ceded when Heatherwine

became a shire.  


Now when Alsion told me the story of the founding of

Dreibergen (because I foolishly wanted to know where

the name came from...), after she told me about giving

Mount Baldy away to Heatherwine, I asked her why they

didn't change the name to "Zweibergen" (I even kept a

straight face when I did this, which was remarkable under

the circumstances).  And the look I got out of Alison

can only be imagined if you know Alison (if looks could

wither, I'd be a prune by now...).  <Ya sure, it was fun!>


The Completely Innocent Tux (really!  no kidding! would

I ever pull anyone's leg?!?  Me?!?)



From: bethmo at microsoft.UUCP (Beth MOURSUND)

Date: 19 May 91 07:34:35 GMT

Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA


Here's a list of some An Tir names and their origins, as told to me

by various folk many years ago...


An Tir: Gaelic for "The Land" -- let's be presumptuous, shall we?

Adiantum: the botanical name of the founding baroness's favorite flower,

possibly misspelled

Three Mountains: originally tried to register as "The Barony of the

Mountains" but heralds rejected as too general.  So the baron looked

out his window and saw three mountains.  Resubmitted as "Three

Mountains" and it passed.  (Known for a few years as "2 1/2 Mountains"

after St. Helens erupted...)

Madrone: a tree native to the area

Lions Gate: name of a large bridge in the mundane city

Wastekeep: site of mundane nuke facility

Coeur du Val: mundane town of Corvallis translated into French

Southmarch: shire on the far southern border

Dragon's Mist: local "myth" that the fog was dragon's breath

Dragon's Lair: another "myth" about dragons

Seagirt: it's an island

Shittemwoode: official explanation: the wood that the arc of the covenant

was made from.  Unofficial: hey, this was the group that Fast Eddie --

er, excuse me, Viscount Sir Edward Zifran -- founded.  And they have

  a drowning rabbit carrying a shepards crook for their arms...

College of St. Bunstable: named after a fictional saint created locally

whose fame has spread far across the known world

Appledore: founder lived on an apple farm


-- Shara Tunoy, originally from Adiantum, now resident in Madrone

   and mostly inactive



From: kevin%athens.dnet at isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai)

Date: 20 May 91 00:32:42 GMT

Organization: The Internet


The origins of names:


The only one I've been directly involved with is that of the (then)

Shire (now Barony) of Starkhafn in Las Vegas, Nevada. A number of

variants were used temporarily, but the only one which gained

any support was Starkhafn itself - although dozens of spelling

variants came up.


Why? Well, Las Vegas is a haven in the middle of the desert, but not

much of one; thus, "stark". The linguistically pure might object to the

two-language puns, but it's all there was.


Others which I have second-or-third-hand reports of (and don't

mind being corrected on) are:


Angels (Barony in Caid):  Los Angeles county, for obvious reasons.

Greywinds (old canton):   City of Los Angeles, for obvious reasons

Calafia (Barony in Caid): the old name for the area now called San Diego.

Altavia (Barony in Caid): High Road, with a black fret; Freeways and

                         freeway crossings. (San Fernando Valley &

                         northern Los Angeles areas.)

Dreiburgen (Barony in Caid): the common mundane nickname for the area is the

                         Inland Empire (honest); the other is the

                         Tri-City Area. Though I went to school in

                         what _might_ have been one of the three, nobody

                         then was able to tell me for a fact which that

                         third one was. (Riverside/San Bernardino/? areas)

Gyldenholt (Barony in Caid): Golden Groves - for the Orange County area


| Keradwc an Cai     |                          |  In the Mists of the West |




From: david at twg.com (David S. Herron)

Date: 20 May 91 01:24:30 GMT

Organization: The Wollongong Group, Palo Alto, CA


I joined the SCA in Central Kentucky and, so long as people are

talking about how groups got named, I've got a couple to relate.


Shire of Dragonsmark: This is a group which had a burst of activity

quite awhile back (say, 15 years ago) which died off after a couple

of years.  I do not know what made it die off, I was not involved

back then but happened to know a few of the people who WERE involved.

I did not join up until about 10 years afterwards when the group

had resurrected itself.


What I was told (or maybe it was Kwellend this was told to) by the old-timers

of the group was: This is a corruption of "Dragons March".  That is,

we were at-or-near the southern border of the Middle Kingdom.  A "march"

is supposed to be a border territory, probably 1 days march across.

Since the main symbol in the Middle is the dragon ....


College of the Cheval Flamant: This was an abortive attempt to have

a group on the U of Kentucky campus, mostly so that the Shire could

have access to university facilities.  I happened to be in on the

naming of this, and may well have come up with the actual words.  The

idea was, though, that all around us were flaming things of some

sort, so there must've been something about the area which made

all these flaming things ....


(We were in a kingdom with a dragon.  The local shire repeated the

"dragon" motif.  In Louisville there is a flaming sword (Barony of

the Flame), and in Cincinatti is a flaming bird (Shire of Fenix).)


Now, Central Kentucky has a lot of horses around, soooo...  Oh, and

my persona is French.


Dunno if the college ever became an official group...  (?)





From: comqoic at BUACCA.BITNET ("Ed Wang ", comqoic at bu.buacca.edu)

Date: 20 May 91 17:20:20 GMT

Organization: The Internet


To all denizens of the Rialto, both learned and verbose,

  I add my two cents worth concerning the borough of Southebanke,

the college group of Boston University, located in that most

pleasant of lands, Carolingia.


The city of Boston is separated from the neighboring city of

Cambridge by the Charles River. As I heard it told, Boston University

is located on the southern bank of this river -- therefore,

our name -- Southebanke.


Were we to annex M.I.T., then we could name it Northebanke...

yeah, that's the ticket...


Oh, also, are there any precedents for changing place names?

Are place names corresponding to real places acceptable?

Who should we talk to about that, if we were to change

our name?


Desperately seeking silver in fair Carolingia,

-- The Zhong-Shan Wolf, Wang Kuei



From: Dale at coyote.cs.wmich.EDU

Date: 21 May 91 13:11:08 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Namining of Groups:

Years ago I help start a group. The name we picked was the Canton of Three Walls. The town we was in had three state prisons.

30 miles away another group started, called Rimsholt. Sometimes refered too as rim shot.  Three Walls and Rimsholt merged. Some of the local jokers Was claiming the new group was going to be called "Three Shots For A Dollar".


From: warren at tsnews.Convergent.COM (Warren Brown)

Date: 21 May 91 15:42:45 GMT

Organization: Convergent Technologies, San Jose, CA


Since there is at least one story behind every place-name in

the SCA this thread could go on for a long time, but I do think

these glimpses of our own history are interesting.


The Barony of Bjornsborg in Ansteorra got its name from the

mainly Nordic early group in San Antonio, led by seneschal Herward

the Dane who was also active in NFPS.  It's a generic

Scandinavian translation of "Bear's Fort", punning on Bexar

(pronounced "Bayer") county and the multitude of military bases

in San Antonio.  The Shire's symbol was of course a bear.  A couple

of years later Greyraven (the "founding" baron) added a fool's cap

to the bear.  Another couple of years and the baronial device was

modified to its present form (two bears maintaining berdiches) by

Baron Jan w Orzeldom.


Prior to creation of the Bjornsborg name in AS IX the fledgling

group in San Antonio tried a few other names, only one of which

I remember: the "Wastes".  South Texas was so labelled on an early

SCA map prepared by (I think) Barok Baran, who was not impressed

by the time he spent in Texas.


The Barony of Stargate in Houston chose their name because of the

NASA space center (following the lead of the Astros and their dome).

With respect to the previous posting of the naming of the Shadowlands,

I believe when the Shadowlands chose their name the only baronies in

Texas were the Steppes, Stargate and Bjornsborg.  The ease with which

Aggie jokes convert to Shadowlander jokes is a great convenience to

all neighbors of the Shadowlands.  :-)  They may still have felt

overshadowed by all those baronial towers; I certainly never heard

any other reason for their name.


One of my favorite group names was created at a tournament in

South Downs (Atlanta, GA) in about AS VII.  At court the

citizens of a new group wished to make a presentation to Baron

Sven. The herald started to announce them, then paused and turned

to the leader, "I'm sorry m'lord, but I don't know the name of your

group." The response was, "Neither do we," in a fine Tennessee

accent. So the presentation from the incipient Shire of Nyther Dwee

was duly announced.  I've probably butchered the spelling, but they

liked the name and kept it.


Warren Brown                 ||      Darcy Graham

Silicon Valley               ||      Esfenn, Mists, West



From: Alex_Hart at mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart)

Date: 22 May 91 00:19:56 GMT

Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada


To the gentle who asked about the origin of the name for the Shire of Appledore

here in An Tir, I took the time to ask one their citizens who now resides in

Lions Gate. The answer is (not too surprisingly) Yes, this name was inspired by

the poem quoted from A.A. Milne. The originater of the shire is named Thomas

both mundanely and in the society and coming from a region renowned for its'

apples,what else could a Pooh bear fan call it ?

Alastair the Eastern Traveller

Lions Gate,An Tir



From: polito at husc9.harvard.edu (Maya)

Date: 23 May 91 13:18:01 GMT

Organization: Harvard University Science Center


Greetings, good gentles.


Another story to add to the growing list of place name origins:

I am a member of the burrough of Duncharloch (also, I believe, spelled

Duncaerloch) in fair Carolingia.  (Burrough is a baronial name for groups

affiliated with a college.)  As I have heard the story, our name means

"Tower on the Charles,"  which is an appropriate name for a group started

in a seventeen story dorm on the bank of the Charles river.  But it is

apparently also a tribute to the first faculty sponsor of our group, one

Charles Dunn by name.


--Fiammetta Adalieta di Damiano Leo



From:_Ioseph of Locksley

To: All

Subject: names

Date: 24 May 91


Well, since we are telling tales about the naming of SCA branches....

We were almost called the "Kingdom of the South" but that was shouted ìdown (literally) in favor of "Atenveldt."

"Atenveldt" is a semi-coined name that combines the Egyptian Aton (for

the Sun) with Veldt for "world, or land." The Principality of the Sun is, of course, based on that......SunDragon was an inspired moment of insanity...the Founding Baroness, Alys Carvelsdottir (now in Ansteorra) lived in Goodyear, AZ....and saw the Goodyear Blimp one day, and..... A DRAGON! Dragons are a protected species in this Barony, incidentally.

Ered Sul is from Tolkien, and was named after the Hopi's sacred mountain beneath which Flagstaff AZ lies.

Wealhnutu? Well, a Certain Irreverent Cossack once said that the word was Navajo for "two fat broads on a hill..."

Twin Moons (Mesa/Tempe AZ)......I will -not- speculate!

I disremember the translation for Tyr Ysgithr (Tucson, AZ), but I seem to remember it has something to do with boars......Welsh, you know......

Loch Sallan is, of course, the Great Salt Lake of Utah.



From: Thorfinn Halfblind

Subject: Branch Names

Date:_24 May 91


In Oertha the names come out like this:

Oertha -- Welsh for ``The Cold Lands'' or ``The Land''.

Eskalya -- An anagram/phonetic spelling of the old Tlingit/Aleut name ìfor Alaska. Means ``The Great Land''.

Winter's Gate -- The northernmost group in existance in the SCA.  Border stretches from Hurricane Gulch in the Alaska Range, up to the North Pole, and from the Canadian Border to the last quarter inch of sand visible on the easternmost edge of Big Diomede Island in the USSR.

We HAVE claimed right of conquest over the entire USSR -- and hope to hold the first East/West war in a generation midway between Oertha and Drachenwald.

Earngyld -- (Formerly Shire of a Thousand Isles)  Strong Viking tradition in the fjords of Southeast Alaska -- plus it's at the state capital.

This, plus the myriad attendant shires is a subgroup called the Alexander Archipelago.

Castle Hill -- One of the most prominent features of Sitka as you come in from the coast is an Old Russian cathedral -- which looks like a castle.

Selveirgaard -- Don't rightly know.  Possibly meaning ``Silver Guard''

Shire of the Lonely Isle -- Adak Naval Station.  And it is VERY lonely.

(Although never dull!  Waking up to your Quonset hut floating in the

wind like a kite is *NOT* dull.)

Shire of Gateway -- Ketchikan.  The first port of call for the Inland Passage ferry run.  Makes the typical weather in An Tir look like the Gobi.  (One fighter from there was rumoured to have gills)

College of St. Boniface -- Several Bonifaces in the _Catalog of Saints_, I think the College is named after the one who died in the snows.

Beast Valley -- Named after the abundant wildlife in that part of the Goldstream valley.  Moose, Ducks, Geese and Bears.  And Mosquitos.

LOTS of Mosquitos.

Iceholde -- The aborted shire started in Barrow.

And to any Westerners, ask Duke Radnor to tell the tale about Iklutna some time. *grin*

Thorfinn Halfblind



From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Date: 24 May 91 03:58:24 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley


Nobody (not even My Lord Husband, whom I would've expected to post it

days ago) has yet mentioned the former shire occupying the same

spatial coordinates as San Francisco, California.


It was the Shire of St. Andrew's, and it had on its arms a saltire,

or St. Andrew's Cross, fracted.


St Andrew is English for San Andreas.


The Shire had the motto "Non Est Culpa Nostra" (It's Not Our Fault).


That Shire is now defunct and the current group occupying the same

spatial coordinates is the Shire of Cloondara.  I don't know what

that means.


But the Shire to the north of it, occuping the same spatial coordinates

as Marin County, California, is the Shire of Caldarium (= a large tub

suitable for bathing in).


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt

Province of the Mists                   djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Principality of the Mists               University of California,

Kingdom of the West                     Berkeley



From: dolata at lead.uazaic.arizona.edu (Dolata)

Date: 24 May 91 19:08:40 GMT

Organization: University of Arizona AI Chemistry Lab, Tucson, AZ


Dearest Gentles,


       If you will graciously allow me to add one small tidbit to the

discussion on places names;


       The College of St. Felix is embedded in the University of Arizona,

whose mascot/symbol is the Wildcat.  So we took the genus name for a

cat, 'Felus',  and looked to see if there was a St. Felix.  Lo, and behold,

there are 16 period St. Felixes.   Some of my favorites are;


St. Felix the Librarian - who was martyred for not letting Diocletion take a

book from the library.


St. Felix the Stupid - who was Sainted for the simplicity and purity of his



St. Felix of Carthage - who was driven into the desert to die of thirst (which

is VERY appropriate for Tucson)


St. Felix the anti-pope -  after 1200 years of Sainthood,  they decided they

had gotten it wrong,  and that he was actually a tool of the devil.


St. Felix the administratively lost - who lived about 200 CE,  but of whom

all record sans his Sanctification has been lost by the records office

(next time the beaurocrats lose your records you know who to pray to!)


       Until my next missive, I remain,


Yours in Service,


Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus

Minister of Arts and Sciences

College of St. Felix



From: storm at hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden)

Date: 24 May 91 15:18:51 GMT

Organization: The Internet


The Barony of Stonemarche chose it's name only a few years ago,

and it was chosen in response to a quest for what we had in common.

Years before the State of New Hampshire had split into several

SCA groups and we thought it would reduce paperwork and generally

be profitable to be one group- but what did all of NH have in

common? ROCKS! (Mundanely known as the Granite State)

This has given us a theme for many fun bits of schtic (sp?)

The invected border on the arms originally stood for the stone

walls that border every road, our awards are called things like

keystone, millstone, cornerstone, etc. with suggestions running

rampant for kidneystones, and other silliness. Our tradition is to

give each new Crown a rock- composition, size, velocity and trajectory

to be determined as appropriate for each pair. So far the most

impressive was the 1 "ko" rock we gave Ronald. Of course gifts of

rocks could range from talc to diamond. We are working on a badge

with a basalisk and cockatrice combattant. And I should not neglect

to mention that our dearest enemies, the Weazelurds, refer to our

fair Baroness Stonemarche as Tinhat Pebble-path.


Arastorm the Golden ("hlafdig" is the Saxon spelling of "lady")

(603)654-2601 or 654-5317  PO Box 43, So.Lyndeboro, NH 03082

-->storm%hlafdig at hern.stonemarche.org



From: lawbkwn at BUACCA.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi/HJFeld)

Date: 27 May 91 16:19:16 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Naming stories: It has been my unfortunate experience to

be involved with two groups that never completely took off.

The first was at Princeton.  I got involved with the SCA

in my senior year, and they did a demo at Princeton.

This generated enough interest to make it worthwhile

to start a canton.  The name we chose (originally

suggested by Arval) was Carrillion Keep.  As we were

a canton of Carillion, the barony had started at Princeton,

and Princeton looks vaguely fortress-like, it seemed


The other group was in Israel. I met a bunch of gamers

who were very interested in the SCA, so I encouraged them

to try to organize.  The name they wanted was "Shlosh

Dayot" which means three faiths.  The device they wanted

was cruisily, two crescents argent, chiefed azure, a

star of david as the crescents.  (Unfortunately, everyone

was drafted or on reserves which made organization



In Service,




From: jprod at sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department)

Date: 27 May 91 20:09:30 GMT

Organization: Sage Publications, Inc., Newbury Park, CA


Greetings from Sister Kate.


   I've been greatly enjoying the place name origin stories. The only one I

can add is Grey Niche (Memphis), which I was told when I joined was named

that because the events were usually rained on, making things generally

*Rainish* (in Meridies, niche is pronounced nish). I speculate that it also

has something to do with Memphis being in a corner, or niche, of Tennessee.


                         Sister Kate


        Journals Production Department, Sage Publications, Inc.

           2111 West Hillcrest Drive, Newbury Park, CA 91320

             voice: (805) 499-0721    fax: (805) 499-0871

                   via Internet: jprod at sagepub.com




Date: 30 May 91 04:37:00 GMT


Greetings to all from Cerdic...


The name of our group, Strikkenwoode, is a comment on the mundane city of

Terre Haute.  We have several beautiful parks, as well as a forest preserve,

but we also have a very foul-smelling industrial park, which tends to kill

off any vegitation around it.


Our more widely known name "The Dirthole" comes from a time in which our

shire fielded more fighters at a Rivenstar baronial fighter practice than

did the Barony of Sternfeld.  At that time, Duke Sir Palymar was prince, and

he noted that "That incipient dirthole has more fighters than our barony!"

The name just sort of stuck...


-Lord Cerdic Blackmoore

-GKMIT in Strikkenwoode,




From: chris at %griffon at mcc.oz (Chris Robertson)

Date: 31 May 91 13:22:22 GMT

Organization: Griffon Consulting


Our Barony of Rowany here in Lochac was named after our Baroness,

Viscountess Mistress Rowan Perigrynne, who was not only the

founding Baroness, but was the driving force behind establishing

Lochac in the first place.  (She actually would have liked the

Barony to be called "Maletur"...)


St. Ursula (after whom the Sydney Univ. college is named) organised

a Crusade of virgins -- at some point in history a scholar's copying

mistake turned the modest number of virgins (who were all slaughtered

on the way to the Holy Land) into 10,000 virgins... The traditional

toast at the annual St. Ursula's dinner is to the virgins, counted

by number...


Yseult de Lacy

Rowany Chronicler



From: iborchar at physics.adelaide.edu.au (Lord Khaos)

Date: 2 Jun 91 01:56:04 GMT

Organization: Department of Physics, University of Adelaide, South Australia


The College of Blessed Herman the Cripple obtained it's name from a TI article

on the Saints of Winter.  For some reason, unknown to us, the only name that

consistently stuck in the reader's mind was "Blessed Herman the Cripple".

No one could remember for more than a day the name of any actual saint listed

in the article....   We all bowed to inevitability :-) .


The College of Blessed Herman the Cripple is part of the Barony of Innilgard

of the Principality of Lochac of the Kingdom of the West.


Tako Jiro (Founder of the "Herman for Sainthood" drive)


Ian Borchardt                                          And in the next world,

iborchar at physics.adelaide.edu.au        I will kill the foe a thousand times,

Medical Physicist                                                   Laughing,

University of Adelaide/Royal Adelaide Hospital                    Undefeated.



From: Dafydd Ap RhysRick Wallace

Subj: SCA geography and group names.

Date: 5 Jun 91


To add to the ongoing history of group names, I believe that the origin of

The Citadel of the Southern Pass should be obvious. I find the name amusing

though; the period name for El Paso ( El Paso did exist n period) was El

Paso del Norte (The Pass of the North.) North, South, kind of depends on

your point of view.  Las Cruces, NM. is known as the Shire of Great River.

The Rio Grande runs through Las Cruces.


               Yours in Service

                       Dafydd ap Rhys



From: Fum at coyote.cs.wmich.EDU

Date: 8 Jun 91 22:31:27 GMT


The Canton of the Three Hills was named for three Hills in Kalamazoo, MI.  The first hill is the hill upon which Kalamazoo College,

the birthplace of the canton, stands.  The second hill is that upon which

the main campus of Western Michigan University is found.  The third

Hill is that which holds the landmark tower which belongs to the

Kalamazoo Regional Psyciatric Hospital.  We believe that in our old

age we all will go to the Third Hill.  Our Patron Saint BTW is Saint Madeline, Our Lady Who Lives Above Us (a truely local legend)


The Barony of Andelcrag got its name through a vote when the Barony

was founded by splitting off from Northwoods.  The name did indeed

Come from PRINCE VALIENT where it was the last fortress to fall to

the huns.  The remaining defenders, mostly women, burned themselves

along with the tower rather than surrender.  When the Heralds didn't

want us to use the name we began to call ourselves the Backwards Barony of

Garcledna (spell it backwards!), a name which we still use for our

nearly annual Pirate Event.  We also began to use as many alternate

spellings as possible.  Eventually the Heralds tired of us and let us

Use Andelcrag.  Fron Three Hills in the outh to The Northern Highlands

the baron consists of a 9-10 hour drive with groups up the

coast of the lower penninsula of michigan and in the Upper Penninsula at Houghton/Hancock.

Though not heavily Populated it is a large Barony indeed.


The canton of Rimshold (sorry, Rimsholt) was named from its place once long ago upon the northern rim of Andelcrag.  Now it is in

the center of the Barony.  (some habe, in jest, called it Rim-shot)


Ritter Baron Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg

Baron von Andelcrag

Canton of the Three Hills

Barony of Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom



From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)

Date: 5 Aug 91 16:32:12 GMT

Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research


Michael the Bard asks:


> Where did the name An-tir come from, and what does it mean.  


It is Irish, and means "The Land."


And, while we're at it:


West: obvious

East: obvious.  

Middle: obvious.  Some of the Midrealm's armory relates to it's "persona"

as "The Middle Kingdom", i.e., China.

Atenveldt: Aten = Egyptian sun god.  Veldt = Dutch/Afrikaans for

"grassland, plain".

Meridies: Latin, "south".

Caid: Acronym of the four original baronies, Calafia, Angels, Isles,

Dreibergen.  Also said to be the Arabic word for "fortress."

Ansteorra: Old English, "One Star" (Texas, of course)

Calontir: Welsh (or is it Irish?), "heart land".

Atlantia: Reference to the Atlantic Ocean.

An Tir: Irish, "the land"

Trimaris: Latin "three seas."

Outlands: obvious


Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald              Josh Mittleman

...but only for another 4 months, 4 weeks, and 2 days    50 Croton Ave. 1F

mittle at watson.ibm.com or joshua at paul.rutgers.edu         Ossining, NY 10562



From: duncan at rti.rti.org (Stephen Duncan)

Date: 21 Oct 91 18:49:44 GMT

Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC


(cerebrum meum dolet) writes:

>Jeremy de Merstone greets the folk of the Rialto and responds to this

>from Brand the Black:

>(B) "Ealdormere" is better translated as "life-lake", or "noble-lake" or

>    "lord-lake".


> Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu


Part of any translation is to get across a proper feeling for the

term as well its meaning.  Perhaps instead of life-lake, we should

consider life-water, finally arriving at water-of-life: Aqua Vitae.

The Irish word for this comes into English as "whisky".


Steve Duncan

duncan at rti.rti.org



From: perkins at msupa.pa.msu.EDU (cerebrum meum dolet)

Date: 20 Oct 91 03:43:28 GMT


Jeremy de Merstone greets the folk of the Rialto and responds to this

from Brand the Black:


> Well, for latinizing Ealdormere, I was either thinking of something like

> Ealdormerus (bad latin, I know, but I'm just a herald...), or getting the

> latin for Old Waters (which is what Ealdormere means).


This seems to be a response to something earlier, but as I, too, have been

plagued recently by missing Digests,  I don't recognize it;  its substance,

though, is plain enough,  so I will comment.


(A) "Ealdormere" is reasonable medieval Latin as it stands -- decline it as

   you would "mare"; there are analogous usages in the _Revised_Medieval_

   Latin_Word-List_from_British_and_Irish_Sources_ (ed. R. E. Latham, 1989

   printing, with Supplement; London, Oxford University Press) -- "mere"

   is a variant of "mare" (sea, lake, marsh), especially in placenames

   (found in places in the Domesday Book); it is also found as "mara",

   "marum" or "maria" [p. 290], so those endings might be chosen, also.

   The Anglo-Saxon "ealdorman(n)"=="Earl, nobleman, leader" is found in

   11th and 12th C. texts as "ealdormannus", "aldormannus", "aldermannus"

   and "aldremannus". [pp. 13 & 160]

   It's by no means Classical Latin, but we're not in the SCA to emulate

   Imperial Rome.


(B) "Ealdormere" is better translated as "life-lake", or "noble-lake" or

   "lord-lake".  "Old" is "eald"; "ealdor" means "life" (as a neuter

   noun) or "chief, prince, lord" (as a masculine noun), and compound

   words, such as "ealdor-bealu"=="mortal injury", "ealdor-dagas"==days

   of one's life", "ealdor-gewinna"=="mortal enemy", "ealdor-leas"==

   "lacking a lord",  etc., all reflect one of these meanings; granted,

   they are *related* to "eald"=="old", but do have independent existence.

   [p. 7 of _Word-Hoard_:_An_Introduction_to_Old_English_Vocabulary_ by

   Stephen A. Barney, New Haven & London, Yale University Press, 1977;

   pp. 319-320 & 373 of the 3rd Edition of Fr. Klaeber's edition of

   _Beowulf_, Lexington, MA,  D. C. Heath & Company, 1950; and

   pp. 321-322 & 358 of the 15th Edition of _Sweet's_Anglo-Saxon_Reader_,

   revised by Dorothy Whitelock, Oxford University Press, 1967]

   So, a classical Latin translation would be something like "Lacus

   Vitalis" or "Lacus Vividus" for the "giving life, lively" connotation,

   or "Lacus Nobilis", "Lacus Principalis" or "Lacus Gentilis" for the

   "chief, lord" meaning.  I think I like "Ealdormere" or "Ealdormare"

   better -- it feels more medieval (just use the right endings).


Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu

North Woods, MidRealm    East Lansing, MI    perkins at msupa (Bitnet)




From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)

Date: 18 Nov 91 19:31:09 GMT

Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research


Greetings from Arval!   jester at gacvx1.gac.edu asks for advice and

assistance on choosing a name from a new branch.


The best single piece of advice I can give you is to choose a place name,

i.e., something that looks like the name of a real place.  Too many SCA

branches have saddled themselves with names that have nothing to do with

reality, modern or historical.  SCA place names should be formed in manner

of medieval place names.  Nearly all place names, in all languages, contain

a geographic term (town, hill, vale, chester, etc.), with some kind of

modifying element.  Master Steffan's classic example is this: In the SCA,

we might have a Shire of the Swimming Pigs.  In the Middle Ages, they would

have had Swinefordshire.  Which sounds better?


If your group is located in the vicinity of a windy hill, then "Windhill"

would be a perfectly fine place name.  Since it lies on a hill overlooking

a river, you might call it "Riverhill".  Remember that once you choose the

group name, you are probably never going to change it.  Something fanciful

and fantastical that appeals to you now may become rather annoying after a

few years, when you decide that you'd really prefer a name that fits into

the medieval atmosphere better - I've seen it happen many times.  Best to

start with something that is more medieval, and perhaps a little less

imaginative, and know that the group will always be happy with it, come

what may.


Choosing a name in Gaelic, or some other difficult language, is perfectly

reasonable, but you should be aware that no one is going to be able to

pronounce it, and the group will forever have to deal with that problem.

If a group has a wide range of personae, then I generally recommend

sticking with something easy to remember, understand, and pronounce:



Whatever language you choose, the first step is to look at medieval maps or

histories, and see how place names were constructed there in the Middle

Ages. Build your name to fit one of the patterns you find.


SCA place names last a long time, and get used by many people.  It's worth

a little extra effort to ensure that they are reasonably authentic.


If you have any specific questions, please do not hesitate to contact me





Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald              Josh Mittleman

...but only for another 1 month, 2 weeks, and 3 days     156 Grand St.

mittle at watson.ibm.com                                    Croton, NY 10520



From: Elwyn Halfmoon

Subj: SCA Geography Source?

Date: 27 Nov 91


> From: andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)

> Date: 25 Nov 91 21:10:23 GMT

> Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

> -- Sandorfia Miklos, Ar n-Eilean-ne, East


> Ansteorra (TX and OK)

>     Barony of Namron (Norman, OK)

>     Barony of the Steppes (Dallas, TX)

>     Barony of Stargate (Houston, TX)

>     Shire of Shadowlands (College Station, TX)

>     Shire of Bjornsborg (San Antonio, TX)


SHIRE of Bjornsborg?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!  We've been a barony for at least a decade, or so I've heard.



Order of Creation of the Baronies






Bryn Gwlad


Eldern Hills

Raven's Fort



Loch Soilleir


I would have replied via netmail except for your reference to Bjornsborg as a barony.  :P


Elwyn Halfmoon

BARONY of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra



Date: 22 Jan 92

From: hwt at bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.


Elder-mere. Stress is equal on the first two syllables. The odd

spelling and pronunciation Eld-owe-mere (Eldomere) is a bizarre and

incorrect mutation, IMHO.


For three trivia points: what were the three names on the ballot?

(Ealdormere, Loganmor, and something I can't remember)


The argument against Loganmor (big lake) was that the collective form

would be Loganmorons...


Ealdormere means old lake, and derives from the same anglosaxon (OE)

word that gave us alderman.


Henry Troup - HWT at BNR.CA (Canada) -



Subj: Kingdom Names

Date: 2 Feb 92

From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)


        The names "West", "East", "Middle", and "Atenveldt" all predate

me (A.S. IV/V) -- they were that way when I joined the Society.

        There was still some use of the term "Kingdom of the Mists" in

at least A.S. VI, but the formal title was "Kingdom of the West".


        "Atenveldt" -- thereon hangs a silly rumor (of course).  The

Phoenix, AZ area is mundanely known as the Valley of the Sun, so someone

(Ioseph probably had a finger in this) came up with "Aten" for the

Egyptian Sun god, and "veldt" -- the Dutch/Africaans word for dry prarie

(I told you it was silly, didn't I?), and soldered them together to come

up with Atenveldt -- which didn't sound too bad, even when new.


Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator        (among other silly things)

Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253

Home: 7 Gothic Court, Novato  CA  94947;             1-415-897-7424

UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb;                Internet: samlb at well.sf.ca.us



Date: 5 Feb 92

From: mdewis at pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au (Mark Richard Dewis)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


Greetings from sunny Lochac!


Bertram, on the subject of the origin of group names, Lochac (pronounced

LOCK-ark) is taken from one of the names Marco Polo was given for the

mythical great southern land (i.e. Australia).


-- Richard of Dunheved, Ynys Fawr Shire, Lochac.

mdewis at pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.



Date: 10 Feb 92

From: 100033.604 at compuserve.COM (Bruce Probst)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: The Internet


Lochac: pronounced "Lock-ark"  (NOT, repeat NOT, "Low-chak" or



The name of course comes from the writings of Marco Polo, who gave it

as the name of the southern continent that he had been told about in

his Asian travels.


I'm afraid I have no idea who chose the name originally, although if

forced to guess I'd be willing to bet it was either Rowan Perigrynne or

Hrolf Herjolfssen.


Decion ap Dyfrwr Trefriw

Barony of Stormhold

Principality of Lochac



Subj: Security Clearence Vs SCA Membership

Date: 24 Feb 92

From: habura at vccsouth17.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY


One piece of evidence on the SCA-membership-isn't-a-problem side: one of the

Shires in the East is called Freelords of the Stone Keep...it's based at the

US Army Military Academy at West Point.(You can always tell the Freelord

people: they're the guys at an event with Very Short Hair.) I rather think that

if the SCA were considered subversive, the Shire there wouldn't be permitted.


Alison MacDermot



From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA Geography

Date: 30 Apr 93 10:32:51

Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture


David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

]   Q: What are the meanings of the non-obvious kingdom names?

]   A: Ansteorra   -- "one star/lone star (sort of)"

]       An Tir      -- "the land"

]       Calontir    -- "heartlands"

]       Meridies    -- "south"

]       Trimaris    -- "three seas"  (Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Atlantic)

]       Drachenwald -- "dragon wood"

]       Caid        --  acronym for Calafia, Angels, Isles, & Dreiburgen

]                    their first 4 baronies...  also Arabic? for fortress


]       Oertha      -- "north"

]       Ealdormere  -- "old lakes"

]       AEthelmearc -- "noble border"


        Atenveldt   -- "land of the sun" or "land of the sun god", approximately


Dennis O'Connor                    doconnor at sedona.intel.com



From: BKFLYNN at email.unc.edu (Brian Flynn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Amusing Arms

Date: Wed, 7 Sep 1994 08:21:13

Organization: University of North Carolina


In article <B82zGDA.mann49 at delphi.com> David Mann <mann49 at delphi.com> writes:

>>Why not use this as a starting point for a thread on arms that have

>>interesting second meanings, both SCA and medieval?


{humorous Swamp Castle story removed}


My barony of WINDMASTER's HILL, Atlantia was orginally eastern NC, the site of

the Wright brother's first flight.  For those who might be history-impaired,

the hill/sand dune where this took place is Kitty Hawk.  Surprisingly enough,

the device of the barony is a winged domestic cat - a cross between a kitty

and a hawk....


But then, that was in early AS something or another (9? 10?), when you could

easily get away with that sort of thing.





From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

Date: 26 Aug 1996 19:17:06 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC


> I'm looking for the stories behind the names of the various Kingdoms of

> the Known World.


Here's how I know them.  Corrections and missing details are welcome.


West: obvious


East: obvious, too.  But to add spice, observe that the badge of the East,

     "A tyger passant azure", was chosen because the tyger is a symbol of

     good luck in Japan (Far East) and blue is a color associated with

     good luck in the Middle East


Middle: obvious.  Note that China was also called "the Middle Kingdom".

     This was the motivation for the dragon in their arms.


Atenveldt: Aten is an (Egyptian?) god of the sun.  "veldt" is the Afrikaans

     word for an arid grassland.  This name has the distinction of being

     the only one derived from a language that did not even exist in our



Meridies: Latin, "south".  Apt for a kingdom in the Deep South.


Caid: An acronym if the names of the four founding baronies: Calafia,

     Angles, Isles, Dreiburgen. Supposedly also an Arabic word meaning

     "fortress".  The crescents and the bordure embattled in their arms

     refer to this derivation.


Ansteorra: Old English "One Star".  Reference to the "Lone Star State".


Atlantia: A play on the word "Atlantic".  The kingdom is primary the

     central Atlantic states.


An Tir: Welsh, "the land".


Calontir: Welsh, "heartland".  The kingdom is in the middle of the US.


Trimaris: Latin "three seas".  Florida is bounded by the Atlantic, the

     Caribbean, and the Gulf of Mexico.


Outlands: obvious, but if there is a particular story behind it, I don't

     know it.  The principality was once called "Utanwayard", which I was

     once told is Old English for "Outlands".  Anyone know for sure?


Drachenwald: German "dragon wood".  I don't know why they chose this.  The

     area was once called "Thairis", but I don't know why.



And for good measure, the principalities:


AEthelmearc: Old English, "noble border".  The area was previously known as

     the Western Marches.


Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they chose it.  


Avacal: I haven't a clue.


Cynagua: A pun on Spanish for "without water".  The principality is in

   California's Central Valley, which is a desert.


Ealdormere: I think this is Old English "ancient sea/lake", probably

   referring to the Great Lakes on their border.


Lochac: A late-period map shows an island with this name in the general

   area of Australia.


Mists: Obvious to anyone who has seen Bay Area fog.


Nordmark: Swedish (or any of several other related languages) "northern



Northshield: It is in the northern part of the Midrealm.  I don't know why

   "shield"; maybe the landmass is roughly escutcheon-shaped.


Oertha: I used to know this one, but I've forgotten.


Summits: Southern Oregon has lots of mountains.


Sun: Climate.


Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com



From: Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

Date: 26 Aug 1996 23:26:27 GMT

Organization: City of Eugene, Eugene OR USA


Outlands and "Utanwayard"  -- I lived there for a year in '76; what I was

told then was that the national heralds were objecting to "Outlands"

(why??) and the "U" spelling was a fudge till they could either be

convinced otherwise or the personnel changed...  I saw it in newsletter

copy during that period, numerous times, as often saw it written out "Utanwayard, pronounced 'Outlands'"





From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

Date: 27 Aug 1996 00:18:12 GMT

Organization: University of California at Berkeley


In article <4vtb9i$ll4 at panix.com>, Arval d'Espas Nord <mittle at panix.com> wrote:


>Meridies: Latin, "south".  Apt for a kingdom in the Deep South.


The primary meaning is "mid-day"; "south" is given as the second

meaning in my Lewis and Short.


>An Tir: Welsh, "the land".


Is it Welsh or Irish?  I had thought, the latter.


>Outlands: obvious, but if there is a particular story behind it, I don't

>      know it.  The principality was once called "Utanwayard", which I was

>      once told is Old English for "Outlands".  Anyone know for sure?


OK, I can fill in on this one.  Way back when the region wasn't

even a principality yet, the inhabitants chose the name "Outlands"

and the then Laurel Queen of Arms, Karina of the Far West, nixed

it: there's a novel by Lewis Carroll called _Sylvie and Bruno_ in

which "Outland" is the fantasy world as "England" is the world of

reality, and Karina vetoed it on the there-already-is-one-in-the-

fantasy-literature rule.  The Outlanders kept complaining and

complaining, and Karina kept vetoing and vetoing, and so they

picked "Utanwayard" pro tempore, and changed it to "Outlands"

shortly after Karina stepped down as Laurel.


>Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they chose it.  

But artemisia is also an herb, the one called woodruff in English

and Waldmeister in German; it's used to flavor May wine.  Whether

that has anything to do with it....


>Northshield: It is in the northern part of the Midrealm.  I don't know why

>    "shield"; maybe the landmass is roughly escutcheon-shaped.


Isn't it located on that ancient land-mass, the oldest part of North

America, known as the Laurentian Shield?


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                        UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu




From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

Date: 27 Aug 1996 01:32:58 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley


Arval d'Espas Nord (mittle at panix.com) wrote:


: > I'm looking for the stories behind the names of the various Kingdoms of

: > the Known World.


: Here's how I know them.  Corrections and missing details are welcome.


: An Tir: Welsh, "the land".


Irish. While "tir" is identical in both languages, "an" is the Irish

masculine singular definite article. In Welsh, the same phrase would be "Y



: Calontir: Welsh, "heartland".  The kingdom is in the middle of the US.


Unfortunately, if this is the intended meaning (of which I have no doubt)

the name contains a significant error. When the modifier is place first in

a Welsh compound, the second element is lenited: Calondir. As it stands,

the element "tir" must be read as modifying the element "calon", producing

a meaning along the lines of "heart (composed) of earth".


: Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they

chose it.  


"Artemisia" is the genus name of sagebrush.


: Oertha: I used to know this one, but I've forgotten.


I believe it is a variant spelling (or possibly misreading) of Anglo-Saxon

"eorthe" (earth).


Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn



From: Tyler Rosenquist <alphafem at cyberhighway.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:58:31 -0600

Organization: CyberHighway Internet Services


About the Principality of Artemesia:


Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:


> Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they chose it.


Sorry, but I have it on excellent authority that when searching for a

name, they tried to find one indigenous lifeform that existed in Idaho,

Utah, Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado.  The most obvious one was the

tumbleweed whose latin name includes the word "Artemesia."  Not very

glamorous, I admit, but that's the story.


Lady Tireachan



From: Terry Marr <1.marr at postoffice.worldnet.att.net>

To: Mark S. Harris

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:05:21 -0700

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?


> I have a file placenames-msg (about 81K bytes) that has many messages on

> the origins and meanings of most kingdoms and many local groups and

> principalities.


> Stefan li Rous


Would be interested in seeing this file.  BTW, if you don't have it


   Barren Sands, East--Includes a portion of the New Jersey Pine Barrens

and is a very coastal region.

   Iron Bog, East--Includes a large portion of the bog iron mining area

of New Jersey.


Terence the Arcane



From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms? (Cynagua)

Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:24:29 GMT

Organization: Netcom


In <4vv860$ceu at csu-b.csuohio.edu> scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M.

Scott) writes:


>>>Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:


>>>> Cynagua: A pun on Spanish for "without water".

>>>It also means "swan" in...Greek?...though I don't claim that this is

the true etymology.  :-)

>The Greek is 'kyknos', the Latin, 'cygnus'; the OED derives the latter

>(through an intermediate form) from the Greek.  There's a certain

>superficial similarity to 'Cynagua', but that seems to be all.


The quotes are getting confusing but the arms of Cynagua have a swan;

ergo, the obvious meaning would refer back to "swan".  If one only

listens to the name, rather than looking at it, it does sound like "sin

agua" (pronounced "seen", not "sin").


Alys Katharine



From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms? (Cynagua)

Date: 29 Aug 1996 12:06:27 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC


Greetings from Arval!


It does seem likely that the people who chose the name "Cynagua" _thought_

that it referred to a swan.  But we can't figure out why they thought that,

since the Latin word for swan is "cygnus" not "cynagus".  


So there are two questions: Are we missing something?  Can we get in touch

with any of the people who picked the name originally?


Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com



From: ez010263 at ucdavis.edu (Kate was here)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms? (Cynagua)

Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 05:03:40 GMT

Organization: UCD


>I wrote (in response to the suggestion that 'Cynagua' might be

>'swan' in Greek):

>>>The Greek is 'kyknos', the Latin, 'cygnus'; the OED derives the latter

>>>(through an intermediate form) from the Greek.  There's a certain

>>>superficial similarity to 'Cynagua', but that seems to be all.  >>Alys:

>>The quotes are getting confusing but the arms of Cynagua have a swan;

>>ergo, the obvious meaning would refer back to "swan".

>Except that the name appears to have nothing to do with swans.  Perhaps

>this is instead a good period-style cant


That is exactly the case.  The roots of the name and the intent of the

founders of the principality (I just called up a couple of them) comes

from both Latin and Spanish for "no water,"  i.e. sine aqua (latin) or

cine agua (spanish - apologies if I splooged the spellings)).  The black

swan arms are a deliberate cant.


If you live around here (ie, in Cynagua) you'd know that the principality

is a place of extremes in weather as regards water.  The summer here

in the Sacramento and San Juaquin valleys is hot-hot-hot and dry-dry-dry;

the weather over the pass in Silver Desert (Reno) is similar.  When

it rains or snows, however, flood conditions are normal in both the

Sierra Nevada and in the valleys.  There are more flood control dams

and diversions here in California than anywhere else in the world.  For

a place that's this dry most of the time, flooding is a real threat. I

suspect it's for these reasons that the now long-forgetten theme song

of Cynagua is "The Swamps of Home" from Once Upon A Mattress.


Sources: Duchess Letecia de Scotia, Viscount Alfric Favnesbane

ttfn, Twcs



From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

Date: 3 Sep 1996 16:16:37 -0400

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS




Coryn said,

>puh-lease. It may be known as the Northern Shield down south, but to

>Canadians it's the _Canadian_ Shield (or sometimes the Cambrian



I grew up in Ohio, and never heard it referred to as _anything_ but the

Canadian Shield in speech or geology books alike.


I think Northshield is not only a reference to the Canadian Shield, but

also to that Principality's position as the "shield" of the Midrealm

against invaders from the North (moose?  Polar bears?  Russians?).



Nicolaa de Bracton

sclark at chass.utoronto.ca



From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Origin of "Oertha," channeled

Date: 9 Sep 1996 16:07:58 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)


Subj:   Re: Names of Kingdoms

Date:   Mon, Sep 9, 1996 2:50 PM EDT

From: ftamy at aurora.alaska.edu

To: sandradodd at aol.com


Unto Mistress Alflaed of Duckford

greetings from

Mistress Annora de Montfort of Shadowood in the Principality of Oertha.


My Lady,

It has been a long time since I was a newbie in Eskalya taking on the post

of seneschale and writing to you for advice. Much has happened since then,

including the ability to communicate with the rest of the SCA world via



I happened to be browsing the Rialto,(a new ability for me) and saw the

piece of the thread talking about place names. I wanted to pass on the

correct story of the naming of Oertha, but as I am not a subscriber to the

list (just thru my university) I thought I would pass it on to you.


In the early days, (1979) Alaska had two groups, Eskalya and Winter's

Gate.We were part of the Principality of Antir. When Antir petitioned for

kingdom status, Alaska asked to remain part of the West. That wish was

granted. We were then termed the Northern Marches. As we got closer to

principality status, the groups started thinking of a name for the whole

unit;the North being the odds on favorite. However, the heralds vetoed the

North and we went back to the drawing board. Enter Sir Kylson Skyfire. He

was returning by airplane from somewhere Outside, and was reading the

airline magazine. He says one of the articles talked about northern lands

and the word oertha. According to the article, oertha meant "guardian of

the North". He presented the name to the Council of the North and to the

populace where it was approved. Now comes the odd part.We never actually

had a copy of the magazine or the article. The language may be celtic...we

know it isn't Yupik or Inupiaq eskimo, but we're not sure anymore. There

is a welsh word for north or northern that sounds like it, but...


So, for the purposes of myth and legend, Oertha means Guardian of the




From: TalyaDkwtr at aol.com

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:11:42 -0500

To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

Subject: The naming of twin moons


After getting your last message I went and talked to the authority of the

name of Twin Moons His Highness Sir Sterling Shaun Leopard, and what I was

given for an answer was that it was the name that was voted upon by the

founders..(what was eluded to is another story all together) I have been in

the Barony for 3 years now and have never gotten the whole story but I do

know it has to do with the "Moon Patrol" at Estrella War (If I remember

correctly, it was Estrella) if I find out anything else I will e mail you and

let you know


Lady Talya of Darkwater

Member of House Three Needles  



From: dlblanc at earthlink.net (Donald L. Blanchard)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Collecting Scadian Folklore

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:54:20 GMT


On 8 Mar 1997 18:31:02 GMT, bekka1 at ix.netcom.com(rebecca fildes) wrote:

>Good gentiles! I politely request your help, on something that may

>sound odd to you.


>I am (and have been for quite a while) trying to collect Scadian

>folklore and folksong (or should that be 'filksong').


Most gentle Lady:


<snip of the origins of the Barony of Caerthe - see Outl-hist-msg>


Thus was it left for Judith to recruit an entirely new membership for the

Barony, which she found primarily within the membership of DASFA (the SF group).

Now, it happens that there was one girl who was a member of DASFA who was also a

member (albeit a peripheral one) of the High School Medieval Club; it was she

from whom I first heard this tale.  Regrettably, she was not present at the

meeting in which the Barony's name was chosen, nor when its device was created,

and thus has no knowledge of the meaning or derivation of the name "Caerthe."

(It is widely believed that the name derives in part from the Welsh word 'caer,'

taken to mean a stone fortress -- and that the Chief embattled of the Barony's

device represents the battlements to be found on such an edifice, but this is

and forever shall remain pure speculation.)


Thus the true origins of the Barony of Caerthe and the meaning of its name are

genuinely lost in antiquity; it is my honest and humble belief that no person in

the Known World knows more than I have here related.


Written by my hand on this the Eleventh day of March in the year XXXI of the



Louis leBlanc, O.L.      |  Donald L. Blanchard

Barony of Caerthe        |  dlblanc at earthlink.net

Kingdom of the Outlands  |  Denver, Colorado, USA



To: mark_harris at risc.sps.mot.com

From: rengraph at ix.netcom.com

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:07:08 -0500 (CDT)

Subject: Re: newsletter's request


>PS: Where exactly is the region of Gleann Abhann? What is the

>meaning of the name?


Gleann Abhann is the Western Region of Meridies, and includes the States of

Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas and a small portion of Tennessee (the

Barony of Grey Niche in Memphis)


Gleann Abhann is gaelic for River valley and since the Mississippi River

biscets our fair land I suppose it is accurate.


We have been a region for about 2 1/2 years now and have aspirations of

ascension to Principality soon (or as soon as our own buracracy moves).





From: joelight at lx.net (joelight)

To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:21:37 -0500


After various and sundry Celtic type disasters, we decided on Blacklake for

the obvious stuff under our feet.





From: larkin at webstar.net (Lord Larkin O'Kane)

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:54:57 GMT

Organization: Trelac, Ansteorra


On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:21:37 -0500, joelight at lx.net (joelight) wrote:


>After various and sundry Celtic type disasters, we decided on Blacklake for

>the obvious stuff under our feet.



Gee, and I thought our water supply was bad. . . at least it isn't

black (yet).  Oh!  You mean oil. . . .


Trelac's name is nothing misterious. We are a region that has three

lakes; Nasworthy, Twin Buttes, and O.C. Fisher.





From: "Martin, Brian" <bmartin at origin.ea.com>

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'"

Subject: RE: ANST - group names

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:17:06 -0500


I'm certain that Stephan already knows this, but it may interest/amuse

others. As Austin is in the Texas hill country the good folks who

named our fair barony, (then a shire), decided upon a name that

reflected the local geography. So these folks found the Welsh words

for "hill" and "country";

Bryn Gwlad. However, that's not exactly how Welsh works. Therefore,

rather than being "Hill Country", our barony's name translates to

"Nation of the Unspecified Hill". Oh well...  :)


Pendaran, soon to be the Baron of the Nation of the Unspecified Hill.



Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:13:29 -0500

From: "V. Allan Endel" <endel at tarleton.edu>

Subject: Re: ANST - group names

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


Stephenville is in an area with few prominent geographic features. However

about 35 miles away is the Comanche Peak Nuclear Power Plant, hence the name

Dragonsfire Tor.





Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:22:46 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Mike C. Baker" <kihe at rocketmail.com>

Subject: Re: ANST - group names

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


Mooneschadow (or whatever the current official spelynge may be) was

founded by college students who only briefly considered -- and

rejected rapidly -- SCA College status. However, we still wanted to

acknowledge the primary "trade" being plied by the core membership.

The name Moonshadow associated ultimately with the habits of students

& rogues, who spend so much of their most useful efforts toiling in

the shadows cast by the moon.


The original, longform, name also included the descriptor "Land of the

Crying Winds".  Anyone who has visited the rolling plains of northern

Ansteorra upon a January day and heard the wind "singing" through the

fences should be able to figure out *that* part...


Pax ... Kihe / Adieu -- Amra / TTFN -- Mike

Kihe Blackeagle / Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra /

Mike C. Baker       F.O.B. (Friend Of Blackfox)



Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:24:37 -0700

From: "Donald C. Walker" <"walkerd at hub.ofthe.net" at hub.ofthe.net>

Organization: Walker Security

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


Mark Harris wrote:


> Alastair Aylward declared:

> >  I am a founding member of Bonwicke and can

> >remember when there were only a couple of folk and we were still

> >discussing what we should call the incipient shiree.... Bonwicke=Good

> >Meeting Place


> So, how did you come up with the name Bonwicke? What language is it

> from? What is it supposed to mean?

> Stefan li Rous


Bonwicke is a very early English name. Bon (possibly Norman french)

meaning good and wicke OE meaning place. Check a map of England and you

can find any number of ...wicke(s).



   Founding member of Bonwicke still in residence



Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:02:49 -0500

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

From: Burke McCrory <bmccrory at mercury.oktax.state.ok.us>

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


AS I sit here musing over the past I think the following snipits are correct.


Namron = is located in Norman, Oklahoma

Wastlelands = if you have ever visited northwest Oklahoma you would


Eldern Hills = The Washita Mountains in southwest Oklahoma are the oldest

mountain range in the US.


Sir Burke Kyriell MacDonald

Kingdom of Ansteorra

email: burkemc at ionet.net



From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Subject: RE: ANST - group names

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:00:17 -0500


Namron is Norman spelled backwards.


At the organizational meeting following Medieval Fair in Norman, no one

could come up with a name.  Sir Koris Natterhelm, who had brought a

group from Steppes to participate in the Fair, said call it Namron.

Since everyone was beginning to get a little punch drunk due to the

length of the meeting, it was agreed to, and Namron was born.





Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:30:33 -0500

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

From: Burke McCrory <bmccrory at mercury.oktax.state.ok.us>

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


Wiesenfeuer's name was formed from two words Wiesen which means meadows or

praire and Feuer which means Fire.  

Wiesenfeuer = Praire Fire


The original name was Ebenfeuer which translates to Black Fire.


Sir Burke Kyriell MacDonald

Kingdom of Ansteorra

email: burkemc at ionet.net



Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 0:17:46 -0500

To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

From: <cward at awd.com> "C Ward, Software Support, x3115"

Subject: ANST - Names of Groups


While we're discussing how various groups got their names, how about



Bjornsborg is San Antonio, which in Bexar County.  Give "Bexar" its correct

Spanish pronunciation, and it almost sounds like "bear", which in turn

gives you the "Bjorn" part of the name.


Add the Alamo, a fort, and you have the "-borg" -- Bear's Fort,






Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:05:33 -0600

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

From: Evelyn Alden <katriana at chanute-ks.com>

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


Well, chiming in from Calontir,


Bois d'Arc - Wood of the Bow.  Name given by French to the Osage Orange,

which grows all around the nine counties of SE Kansas.  Our shire device has

9 pommes of gold(the "oranges") in border and a bow in the middle.


Forgotten Sea - Well, legend has it there was a sea there a loooong time

ago, (like when dinosaurs roamed the earth) but we've all forgotten : )


Standing Stones - There are several (7?, 9?) stone columns on the University

campus in Columbia, MO.  The shire is named for them.


Ivory Keep - I believe this is named after the town of Hannibal, MO

(Hannibal-elephants, get it?)


NoMountain - Grinnell, IA.  There is no mountain there : )


Spinning Winds - Manhattan, KS is in "Tornado Alley"


Three Rivers - There are enough things mundanely named Three Rivers in St.

Louis to make this one obvious


Couer d'Ennui - Heart of Boredom, Des Moines, IA.  The device is a ring of

boar's heads, it was used to be their custom when gathered in a group to

chant "boar ring, boar ring, boar ring,..."


Katriana op den Dijk

Shire of Bois d'Arc

Kingdom of Calontir



Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:58:01 +0900

From: Ghislaine Fontaneau/Elayne Hoover <elyh at wcc.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


Chris and Elisabeth Zakes wrote:

> >  I don't know what "Adlersrhue"

> >actually means.  I grew up there, and no-one ever seemed to know....


> "Adler" is German for "eagle". I *think* "Adlersrhue" means "eagle's nest".

>         -Tivar Moondragon


Oh!!! That would explain the shire's device.  an eagle.




Madame Ghislaine Fontanneau

elyh at wcc.net



From: RF <rfleming at tenet.edu>

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Subject: RE: ANST - group names

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:32:43 -0500


In a message dated 97-10-15 07:19:51 EDT, Ghia (?) wrote:

> "Adlersrhue"

> actually means.  I grew up there, and no-one ever seemed to know....


Amra / Kihe / Mike  Wrote:

>While I may have missed any expansion or correction, I believe you will find

>that instead of "eagle's nest" that this name translates from German more

>accurately as "eagle's PEACE".  IIRC, isn't there a prominent facility

>associated or previously associated with promoting strategic (modern)

>peace [as part of the M.A.D. doctrine] within / very near the boundaries

>of said place? <gryn>


It was meant to be Eagle's Nest.  






From: Baronman at aol.com

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 03:50:03 -0400 (EDT)

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


In a message dated 97-10-15 00:05:26 EDT  Garth writes:

>> I do believe Stargate was named for its proximity to NASA.


>> meadhbh


> That's what I heard from some of the old, old-timers like Tostig and

>such. However, if my map is correct it seems like the Loch has a better

>claim on the Stargate.


   Yes -this is true- but in the early days, the Stargate Barony was HUGE

and included the NASA district- the Loch was only a itty bitty canton of

Stargate. Loch Sollier is Celtic for Clear Lake, the home and residence of Douvarcue ( I'm not sure of this spelling - help me Aoden), the last of the North American Loch Monsters, sighted only last week by two members of the Loch after consuming a bottle of Glenlivet.


Baron Bors of Lothian



Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:16:35 -0500

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at bga.com>

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


So many groups have interesting names: Coeur d'Ennui in Calontir (French

for heart of boredom), the Mists (named for the fogs in San Francisco), the

Kingdom of Caid (created of the first letters of the then-existing four

baronies, Calafia, Angels, Isles, and Dreiburgen). Bryn Gwlad (my home) was

named by someone opening an English-Welsh dictionary and pulling out words

for "hill" and "country." Unfortunately, he was not fluent (not even close)

in the language, and we ended up being named "land of the unspecified

personified hill." It should have been, if I recall correctly, Bryn Dir.






To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

From: RAISYA at aol.com

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:58:58 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


If you're collecting group names for the Knowne World generally:


Perilous Journey - Berlin, Germany named in the days that getting in and out

of the city WAS a perilous journey.  It was a shire, I'm not sure what it is

these days.


Shire of Roaring Wastes - Detroit, Michigan, and it's pretty self-explanatory.


Shire of Stormvale - Flint, Michigan area, I was told by original members

that it was a humorous compromise after battles over the group's name, etc.


In service,

Raisya Khorivovna



Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:43:20 -0500

From: Paul Mitchell <pmitchel at flash.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


Galen here!


RAISYA at aol.com wrote:

> If you're collecting group names for the Knowne World generally:


> Perilous Journey - Berlin, Germany named in the days that getting in and out

> of the city WAS a perilous journey.  It was a shire, I'm not sure what it is

> these days.

Actually, Perilous Journey went defunct a few years after I left there.


The name came actually from one of Duke Merowald's maps of the Known

World, which showed a shire in the far east of Drachenwald called "Perilous

Journey". I thought it had to be Berlin, but when I got there, there was no shire in Berlin, and Drachenwald had never had a Shire of Perilous Journey.  So I founded the shire in Berlin, using the name from the map; it was the

only SCA branch behind the Iron Curtain.


- Galen of Bristol



Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:40:09 -0500

From: Paul Mitchell <pmitchel at flash.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Subject: Re: ANST - group names


Baronman at aol.com wrote:


> If history hasn't changed, I think Baron Aoden once stated that

> the Loch was the only canton to rise to baronial status in the kingdom-

> however this may not still be true.  


Actually, I think Elfsea (which is named for Lake Worth) shares the

distinction of being both barony and former canton.


- Galen of Bristol



From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>

Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law

To: "Mark Harris"

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:52:36 -700 MST

Subject: (Fwd) Re: Group Names




>PS - Apparently the founders of Caer Galen beleived the name (which I

>still think is lovely) meant "Valley of Song".  Turns out a closer

>meaning is "Fortress of Noise".  Strangely appropriate.


I live in Caer Galen.  The name is quite appropriate.  :-)





From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>

Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law

To: "Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail>

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:54:05 -700 MST

Subject: Re: ANST - Practical arts and sciences




This is a great one!  Bofharrach (inhabitants known as the

Boferinghi) sports black and white cowie trappings.  This is

the story of their origins for your files.




Date sent:        Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:01:09 -0600

Send reply to:    outlands at mail.unm.edu

From:             Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net>

To:               outlands at mail.unm.edu

Subject:          Re: Group Names


Jeanne Stapleton wrote:

> There's a fascinating thread running on the Ansteorran list right

> now which aroused my curiosity...it's about how the groups got their

> names. <...>


The Canton of Bofharrach in the Barony of Unser Hafen

(formerly Uns Haven, for our wooly men up north:) started out with a

few students and a hand full of us "old folks" who met every week to

dance and fight.  After a couple months, (now Sir) Akira got to

prodding us into getting some identity and thinking about researching

a name. There were those that thought that our "symbol" should be the

same as the college.  However, those of us that hadn't even Seen a

bear outside of a zoo, had trouble identifying it with our locale.

Dragonspine had a visible mascot, we enjoyed that notion, something

you could see that had to do with the region.


For those of you unaware, Greeley, CO has been a cattle shipping and

processing area since the introduction of cows to the region in the

1800s. We have been known as a "cowtown", with justification, since

before our first town charter.  Cows are still a major source of

income and employment for the region.


And, for those who have not a Celtic background, cows were in period

the highest medium of exchange.  Actually, many cultures shared this

attribute, but the Irish in particular took it into the very fiber of

their language. A pathway was described by how many cows could walk

side by side on it. A nobles honor price in Irish society was denoted

by how many milch cows he/she was worth. Gathering places were named

often by the use that place had for cattle; Booley (milking or dairy

place) Badhun (cow fortress) Boyagh (cow house) River Boyle (river of

good pasture, cow river)....


We originally made the mistake of trying to affix the place name with

modern context meanings and came up with Dun Bolacht.  This was

erroneous as its meaning instead of "Fortress of the cattle", was

actually "Fortress of Cattle products" and was bad Irish grammer ....

So it was suggested by the Laurels-all-knowing that we try DunBo.  Too

many of our members were reminded of a flying Disney elephant, so that

idea didn't fly.


In consulting with those-in-the-know, we merged Bo (meaning =

cow/cattle) and Farrach (meaning = meeting place) in the correct

context and Irish grammer, and ended with "Bofharrach" = "Meeting

place of the cows".  This, in period context with Irish culture, would

have been a noble place indeed.  Where you gathered your cattle and

had your fairs and did your negotiations was a very powerful and

important area.  All of a clan, clanchief, Tuathe (region) and King's

worth could be summed up in their cattle, and how many they could hang

on to.


Those who do not understand might take the modern context of cows

(those inbred silly black and white speckled things with dumb looks)

and misinterpret our meaning.  But when faced with the ancient wooly

breeds of cattle, with the huge horns and noble character, you get a

different perspective.  We have fun with it, but we are also "deadly"



Go raibh maith agat! (May good go at you!)

Mistress Lughbec ni Eoin of Bofharrach

Countess Berengaria de Montfort de Carcassonne, OP

Barony of Caerthe

Kingdom of the Outlands



From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>

Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law

To: "Mark Harris"

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:20:31 -700 MST

Subject: (Fwd) Re: Group Names


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date:          Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:50:37 -0400 (EDT)

From:          LoneWlf at aol.com

To:            outlands at mail.unm.edu

Subject:       Re: Group Names


Well, as to what I know about names:


The Shire of Windkeep was once known as WindDragon, I do believe.

(Lord Coengar and Master Rhys would know more of Windkeep's origins

than I would, since I'm a bit of a transplant.  :-)


And, being originally from Duthaich Beinne Aird (Laramie, WY) and

having been seneschal there when the name was first submitted, that

shire orginally wanted the name of 'Ard Tir', meaning 'High Land' in

Gaelic, but Laurel rejected it as being in conflict with the Kingdom

of An Tir as well as being what the Scots to this day still use to

refer to the Scottish Highlands (Made sense to us at the time, and we

never even thought of it) so the name was resubmitted.  Not long ago

the current name of Duthaich Beinne Aird was passed.  It means 'High

Mountain Country' in Gaelic.  (This makes sense, as Laramie is about

7200 feet above sea level nestled in the valley of a small mountain



There's my musings from my scant 7 years in the SCA and what I've been

through with group names.  Personally, I'm interested to see how

al-Barran, Arquelle, Caerthe, and places further south of Unser Hafen

got their names.


Duncan MacAllister



From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>

Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law

To: "Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail>

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:13:32 -700 MST

Subject: (Fwd) Re: Group Names


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date:          Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:13:00 -0600

From:          Pendar the Bard <pendar at highfiber.com>

To:            outlands at mail.unm.edu

Subject:       Re: Group Names


> Not long ago the current name of Duthaich Beinne Aird was

> passed.  It means 'High Mountain Country' in Gaelic.  (This makes

> sense, as Laramie is about 7200 feet above sea level nestled in the

> valley of a small mountain range)


That's cool. In period places were generally named after the

surrounding environment so it's good to see that practice used in the

SCA. Do you have any idea why the group chose a rampant elephant as

its primary charge? (The device was registered last month.)


> There's my musings from my scant 7 years in the SCA and what I've

> been through with group names.  Personally, I'm interested to see

> how al-Barran, Aarquelle, Caerthe, and places further south of Unser

> Hafen got their names.

> Any historians on those?


The rumour I hear about the origins of al-Barran is that someone, I

think it was the founding Baron, Raymond the Quiet, was under the

misconception that the star Aldebaran meant "The Scorpion" in Arabic

(or at least had "scorpion" connotations.) The group had already

chosen the scorpion for its symbol since it was located in the middle

of a desert. I'm not sure exactly how "al-Barran" was extracted from

"Aldebaran", but maybe this will stir a memory in someone else. What

Aldebaran actually means is "The Follower" since it follows the

Pleiades across the sky.



Date:          Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:41:05 -0600

From:          Pendar the Bard <pendar at highfiber.com>

To:            outlands at mail.unm.edu

Subject:       Re: Group Names


> so the name "Stonehaven" went away, no release involved.  After

> several iterations, including a name similar in sound to "Unser

> Hafen", which ment "unshaven" (and thus that legend),


So it is true! Well, that's one for the books! (Or at least the



> the group arrived at the name "Unser Hafen", meaning "Our Home" in

> ?german? (or whatever).


Yes, in German. (could also translate to "Our House". Basically it

just means "Our safe place-- our Haven." Which is why the final line

in the song I wrote for your Barony is "We fight for 'Our House', it's

from there our strength flows."


> Sir Kevin McKinnen was there at the time, and you might check with

> him for the exact details.  Thorfinn


I will definitely check with him when I am ready to assist in

researching the next edition of the Staglopedia. Thank you.





Subject: Re: history behind shire name?

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:10:07 -0600

To: Mark Harris <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

From: Robert Beaulieu <robert.beaulieu at sympatico.ca>


       The Shire de l'Isle du Dragon Dormant is the first and oldest branch in

Quebec. I always was under the impression (I do not remember ever

discussing the matter with the founder) that it is a mundane rerference.


The Shire de l'Isle du Dragon Dormant is located in Montreal. an island

with a small mountain (Mont-Royal) that for many years was speculated to

possibely be of volcanic origin. Voilà: the island and the sleeping



MiLord it is also of interest to know that the arms of the shire

reflect this "tale".



        I do not know why purpure likely no reason

     a chevron argent:

        The chevron is the mountain (Mont-Royal)

     between in chief a laurel wreath:

        Obvious (The SCA)

     between two fleurs-de-lys in fess:

        The french origin of the vast majority of the People and of the Land

     and in base a dragon dormant, wings elevated and addorsed, Or:

        The reminder of the "possible" volcanic origin of the mountaim.


                        Lord Robert de QuelQuePart




<the end>

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