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Stefan's Florilegium


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SCA-hist1-msg - 5/15/92


Messages on the history of the SCA from 1/91 until 5/92.


NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist2-msg, SCA-hist3-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, vanity-plates-msg, placenames-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, you-know-msg, Atlant-rapier-msg, CA13-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



"History is a moving target that changes as fresh details are discovered, as errors are corrected, as popular attitudes shift.  Historians carve the sculpture that is Truth not out of granite, but out of wet clay."


-   From the preface to "The Life of Muad'Dib" in the Dune series.



From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Date: 24 Jan 91 02:06:57 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley



(Alizaunde on Arastorm's account) writes:

>   CHECK THE TEXT. I have one book- I regret I can't remember the

>author right now, but we can at least thank our respective Gods that

>it is now out-

>of-print-  which describes an entire era of dress with one (original)

>picture and the statement  "This style is too ugly to deserve our

>further attention." Ask me how often I hand that out to novices.


O, yes.  It gets better--or worse.  In 1968, as you may recall, the

Society got its first introduction to the outside world, and vice

versa, at a demo we did for an SF convention called Baycon.  They

gave us some money for some explanatory handouts, and Mistress Diana

put out the first edition of the Known World Handbook. Mistress

Hilary sometimes reproduces that first edition for her SCA history

classes, with a disclaimer warning you not to follow any of its

instructions, because it recommends things we don't recommend any



As for example--(short pause for a fruitless search through the bookcase

for my copy; no luck, paraphrase will have to do)--there's a section

on garb, with half a dozen line drawings of the general sort of thing

you're aiming at, and telling you how to adapt McCall's and Simplicity

patterns to make it.  And then it says, "We don't recommend you try

to copy _real_ medieval clothing, because it isn't attractive."~


So don't let them tell you we've backslid and gone downhill since the

Good Olde Days.  In some categories it's just the reverse.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt

Province of the Mists                   djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Principality of the Mists               University of California,

Kingdom of the West                     Berkeley



Ioseph of Locksley

Steve Bloch

Re: Too much talk about Pennsic

3 Jun 91

SB>From: sbloch at euclid.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch)

SB>storm at hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden) writes:

SB>>I would love to go to Estrella, or Burro Creek,  

SB>>or  some  of the other long-large events in other parts of the  

SB>>Known  world.


SB>If "Burro Creek" is a reference to the (semi)annual mini-War in San

SB>Diego County, I must point out that it hasn't been there for a num-

SB>ber of years (certainly before I came hither), and is now held at

SB>Potrero County Park, which I'm told is an enormous improvement.

SB>(If not, and my memory doth fail of the old site's name, never


A bit of history of the Estrella War is in order here....the first one, the Notorious Caid Invitational during the reign of Johnathan (Whytewolfe) I, was held at Estrella Park. The park at that time was seriously undeveloped, so we moved it to Burro Creek Campground, in Northwest Arizona, just north of Wickenburg. We outgrew that in about two or three years, plus we got tired of the blue-haired old ladies in their RV's gawking at us and getting in the way, so Master Zoltan Kovacs (Kirby Wise-Fraser) offered to host it on a plot of land by his place out by Bouse, AZ (in the Middle of Nowhere.) This plot of lad was VERY undeveloped, and these wars are referred to as the "Catbox Wars." Then, Estrella Park was seen to be developed, so we moved it back there.

Currently, the next one will be held at Estrella Park, but after that, we

-may- be moving it to private land....we are outgrowing even that LARGE

County Park.

                                                -Ioseph of Locksley

                                        Who Autocrated Burro Creek I & II



From: steffan at pro-angmar.UUCP (Steven Mesnick)

Date: 7 Jun 91 04:41:39 GMT

Organization: The Internet


There has been some discussion of the history of heralding (specifically,

the making of essential announcements) at Pennsic....


I've been to every Pennsic since 7, and was Chief Herald at 11. Back in the

Early Days [ :-) ], Pennsic was run like Any Other Event. You need an

announcement made? Go find a herald and have him yell. Not too difficult

when the War was a few hundred folks. About PW 10, folks started to realize

that Pennsic wasn't just Any Other Event. At PW 10, Lady Graidhne ni Ruadh

(then Oaken, later Dragon Herald) instituted a roster system whereby

heralds signed up in advance for specific periods during which they would

be "on call". Before this, there had just been a sporadically-manned

Herald's Point -- usually this meant the Chief Herald, and was wherever

s/he happened to be encamped. At PW 11, I intended to work with a

refinement of Graidhne's system, whereby heralds would sign up for specific

*events* insterad of fixed time slots (since events are always being

re-scheduled: if you signed up to herald the bridge battle, you would

herald it no matter when it actually happened). For various reasons, we

didn't do it this way. What we actually did was to establish a set schedule

of "runs", and instructed folks to "just show up" 15 minutes before a run.

This (usually) meant we didn't have to have heralds yell to get heralds,

and it meant we could avoid a constant barrage of messages: we announced

emergency stuff as necessary, but saved everything else for the scheduled

runs. It also allowed us to repeat important messages at set intervals.

(Ask me about the Legend of the Copperheads :-) ). This whole system was

facilitated by the spontaneous establishment at PW 11 of named roads

between  major camping areas, in reaction to the chaotic crowding of PW 10.

        Anyway, this system has become the standard for Very Large Camping

Events (Pennsic, TYC/TFYC, Estrella [?]), and my scroll says it's one of

the things I got my Pelican for. The funny thing is it wasn't even the system I originally planned to use; it's just the one that worked.


        Steffan ap Cennydd




From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 29 Jul 91 21:42:07 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


>Once upon a time . . .

>Those who played with sticks, and did it

>well (or were in the right place at the right time) became knights.

>Those who supported any aspect of the creation of the aforementioned

>ambiance, over and above what could be expected from a sane person

>(and were silly enough to let other people see them do it), became



>Someone, somewhere (for reasons I once knew but now escape me) decided

>art and service were "different" and should be treated as such. Thus the

>Pelican was born (I do know the BOD had their hand in it). Some of those

>nobles who had been Laureled for service resigned their Laurels and

>received Pelicans.


The Board of Directors--and this is around the time they wanted to be

called "The Imperial Electors"--wanted to be able to give out awards

for those doing Great and Good Deeds on behalf of the entire Society

just like Kingdoms did for those who did likewise for each Kingdom.


This is not (on the face of it) a bad idea.  What got overlooked in

the effort is that a Board of Directors isn't a very Medieval idea--whether

you mean "medieval" in the historic sense *or* the romantic sense.

We've discussed, on occassion, one nver reads about King Arthur and

his Pelicans of the Round Table (though we might imagine it could

happen . . .), bet I think even the most fuzzzy view of the SCA would

have problems discussing The *BoD* and it's Knights of the Round Table.


Not very surprisingly, the Kings objected.  After some thought--and a

great deal of pressure--the BoD relented and "opened" the Order of the

Pelican to the use of the Kingdoms.  Since then there haven't been any

BoD-given Pelicans and the BoD has decied that it is a 20th-century

guardian of the interface between the medieval aspects of the Society

and the 20th century reality we must deal with from the outside.  This

realization is a Good Thing.  (Believe me--I know.  I was a Kingdom

Chronicler when Jon deCles was Steward.  Waht's more--I lived within

five miles of him.  I don't think there is anyone else--save my Lady

Wife--who gathers news on the Rialto who has ever had to deal with

that rather ghastly combination of misfortunes.)


The upshot of all this was that the OP suffered under a bit of cloud

for some years afterward and has (probably) been part of the feelings

in some quarters that, while all Peerages are equal, some are more

equal than others.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)


Hal Heydt                    |    Practice Safe Government

Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |           Use Kingdoms

415-823-5447                 |     (seen on a bumper sticker)

whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM    |



From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 4 Sep 91 17:23:22 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder) writes:

> "What are the expectations on peers over the course of their SCA lives?"


>Chivalry are not expected to be super-hot fighters into their 70's and 80's

>(though I hear we have a number of skilled fighters in their 50's and 60's).


An anecdote:  When Sir Bela of Eastmarch decided that life was tooo

busy to continue to be active in the SCA, and that age made it

impossible to continue to fight actively--he decided to "hang up his

spurs."  At that time he offered to retire from his Knighthood.  This

offer of retirement of rank was declined.  He is *still* a Knight--and

a highly respected one by all who know him.  While he may no longer

fight, he remains a source of sage advice and retains tales of the

earliest days of the Society.  For those unfamiliar with the gentleman

in question--the rest of the time you may know him as Poul Anderson.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)


Hal Heydt                    |    Practice Safe Government

Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |           Use Kingdoms

415-823-5447                 |     (seen on a bumper sticker)

whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM    |



From: ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder)

Date: 7 Sep 91 02:23:55 GMT

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


A question is asked concerning the growth of the Society, with particular

emphasis on retention/turnover statistics.  I can't say much about the

retention/turnover issue (to solve it would require a 1-to-1 matchup

of old printouts/datafiles that may or may not exist), but...


The first issue of TI published during our term as editors, #56 XV,

Fall 1980, had a print run of just over 2,000.  Our last print run

for issue #67 had a print run of well over 8,000.  So those three

years saw a tripling of our official subscribing membership.

Of course, much of that was pent up demand because of TI's

for-some-time-less-than-dependable publishing schedule,

so I'm sure our actual (contrasted with official) number of

"players" did not increase as rapidly.  


Bertram of Bearington



From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)

Date: 19 Sep 91 19:54:40 GMT

Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


From article <1991Sep18.165848.11129 at agora.uucp>, by trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks):



> Interesting... I have always been told one must be a member to hold office

> because of some legal requirement in the charter (arguement being that folk not

> holding membership are not legal representatives of the SCA). Is this just

> another silly SCAurban legend?


> NicMaoilan

> trifid at agora.rain.com


        There is a great deal of history to this particular arguement -- it

was one of the bones of contention when I was Steward. The ruling has become

much more explicit than in my day -- there was not an ABSOLUTE requirement

then, as there is now.


        The "pro" side of the arguement was that in order to act for the

Society, one had to be a member.


        The "con" side usually devolved down to "I don't wanna; there is no

such thing as the Society around _here_ -- we just meet to do things

Medieaval; what does it matter as long as things get done?"


        Well, mundane law has some things to be said about membership -- it is

not as clear-cut as one like, but a member is in a much better position to

make deals and contracts for an organization than a non-member is.


        As for the first "con" arguement -- we've all had to deal with

snotty adolescents.


        For the second -- I note that some Steward after me managed to

settle that particular bit of nonsense -- probably by siccing the IRS on

the "non-existent" organization to ask about the money being collected.

Remember, folks, one of the chief reasons for incorporating the Society

in the first palce was to keep the tax thieves and busibodies out of our

pockets -- just look at how much it costs to publish an issue of your local

Kingdom newsletter, and decide whether you could afford to have all of

that added to your income for taxing purposes . . .


        As to the third, Cariadoc and I have been having this arguement for

entirely too long -- I rather agree with the sentiment, and _HE_ does a good

job in all things that I know about, but not everyone has the character and

ability that he does -- one of the problems with Mundania was in keeping the

IRS convinced that the Society was indeed an educational organization which

was/is worthy of having tax-exempt status.  If they once get it into their

heads that this is an on-going costume party whose sole reason for existence

is to collect money for drunken orgies -- there goes the exemption.

        I assume that one of my successors managed to win the battle with

the Infernal Robbery Skunks, but as late as 1974, it was still iffy . . .


Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator (among other things)

7 Gothic Court, Novato  CA  94947;  1-415-897-7424

UUCP:  uunet!optilink!samlb;  Internet: samlb at well.sf.ca.us

Compuserve: 71735,1776;  WU Easylink: ESL 6284-3034;  MCI: SBassett



From: dcb at cci632.cci.com (Douglas Brainard)

Date: 20 Sep 91 15:23:13 GMT

Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism


Greetings unto those worthy gentles frequenting the Rialto,

from Corwin of Darkwater!


[Gee, I must be famous now, I've been quoted in a .sig file 8-)]


I "found" the SCA about 12 1/2 years ago. After meeting the seneschal of

Myrkfaelinn, and being told that there was going to be a feast the following

Saturday, I went off with new-found glee, purchased some upholstery fabric

researched a name (AElfwine of Myrkfaelinn), talked a friend into sewing

something together ("Who needs a pattern? Just sew it together here and

there and make it look like the picture!"), bought some feast gear, and

showed up at my first event. Unfortunately, and for entirely mundane

personal reasons, there was a nine year gap between my second and third

event. These things happen. That first event was largely forgotten.


Fortunately for posterity (or not, as you prefer) I recorded my impressions

in a letter that was only recently re-discovered. I hope you find it to be

of some interest. The original text has not been changed. An introduction

ani annotations have been added as an aid to understanding of the text.



                         A Winter Tourney & Feast

                       by Lord Corwin of Darkwater


                             Being an Account

                                  of the

                           Author's First Event

                 Annotated by the Author 12 1/2 Years Later


Everyone was new, once. However, it is often difficult to think back and really

understand exactly how you felt about your first event, memories being clouded

by time. The following account was written on the 25th day of February, Anno

Sociatatis XIII, during the reign of Bertrand and Allanda, King and Queen of

the East, that being the day after my first event.


"Saturday I got up and put the finishing touches[1] on my costume[2]. It now

looks as shown[3], and I've included a piece of material[4] that was left

over[5]. It should be re-done[6] someday[7] (to improve on the [ahem] quality)

and I still need[8] shoes, a scabbard, and a hat (to cover the antennae[9], of



Anyway, I went to Cornell[10] at about noon, and learned that I was early, so I

helped out in the kitchen[11] and the dining room for several hours[12]. Then I

watched the tournament (not being able to do anything else but) and got

thoroughly confused[13]. I suppose I'll learn[14].


Afterwards, I went back to the Dining Area[15] early and changed into my

"garb"[16] (the Fighting[17] and Eating[18] areas were separated by a large

expanse of cold outside[19], for which my costume[20] is not suitable[21]).


Dinner began at 7PM, and everyone was quite famished[22]. It was in several

courses[23] (something like the Royale Dump[24]) only the foods were

authentic[25] Middle Ages dishes. Pretty good, too, if you consider that a half

dozen folk had to cook for over 60 people[26] in a kitchen dinkier[27] than



Everyone loved my costume[28], although no one seemed to remember me[29] (not

surprising, no one had ever met me). All of the locals asked me where I was

from, thinking I was from Boston[30] or Rochester[31] or Buffalo[32], and were

somewhat confused when I said I lived in Ithaca[33]. When I explained that I

was a recent arrival, some of the confusion was cleared up.


Well, after dinner[34] was the dancing[35], which I liked very much, followed

by some court games (Blind Man's Bluff) and more dances. Then, with everyone

somewhat exhausted, it was called a night (being 1:30 in the AM) and all





1       SCA Truism: Garb is not to be completed before the day of the event.

2       Garb.

3       Pseudo-medieval girdled mantle. Undertunic by Danskin.

4       Blue, pseudo-silk brocade. I wish I had bought the green, too.

5       SCA Truism: There is always material left over.

6       SCA Truism: All garb needs to be re-done at least once.

7       It never was.

8       SCA Truism: There are never enough accessories.

9       To explain this would require a lengthy discussion of the Galactic

        Archives, Imperial Martian Stout, and Fannish Politics in Upstate

        New York. Another time.

10      Risley Hall, Myrkfaelinn, AEthelmearc, East

11      SCA Truism: They always need help in the kitchen.

12      Lotsa "Atta boys."

13      I still do.

14      Nope.

15      Feast Hall.

16      Note first use of proper terminology. The presence of the quotation

        marks indicates that usage will not continue.

17      List [Erik, in some kingdoms].

18      Feast.

19      This is typical of most winter events in the East.

20      Told you.

21      This is typical of most garb worn at most winter events in the East.

22      SCA Truism: Everyone is hungry by the time the feast is ready.

23      Removes.

24      A Dinner Theater in St. Louis, MO, featuring King Henry VIII, buxom

        serving wenches, and a lack of eating utensils.

25      As if I would know.

26      They had it lucky, back then.

27      We are talking SMALL.

28      Garb.

29      In the year XIII of the Society, everyone knew everyone.

30      Carolingia, East

31      Thescorre, AEthelmearc, East

32      Rhydderich Hael, AEthelmearc, East

33      Myrkfaelinn, AEthelmearc, East

34      Feast.

35      Horse's Bransle, etc.



   /|    Lord Corwin of Darkwater           Chroniclers can edit names out  

  ( {     Scribe for Brewers                as easily as visionaries can    

   } \    Brewer for Scribes                noise them abroad.

  /   \  Thescorre, AEthelmearc, East               Brother Cadfael

{     }  Douglas Brainard, Rochester, NY  

  \___/   dcb at ccird7.cci.com



From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 17 Oct 91 00:35:50 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago


A number of people have mentioned that in the Middle gold chains are

used by knights and silver by squires, while in the East both gold

and silver are used by knights. I would like to offer a guess about

the reason.


A very long time ago, when I was living in the East, I made silver

chains for myself and my blood brothers Asbjorn and Patri. One reason

was that Patri does not wear gold for aesthetic reasons. Another was

that I had come across a reference to a religious prohibition in

Islam against men wearing gold except on the belt (it turns out that

it applies to silver too, but I didn't know that then). Another was

that real silver chains are a lot less expensive to make than real

gold chains, and we liked the idea of real chains. There were

probably other reasons as well.


The result was, that for part of the fairly early history of the

kingdom when there were not all that many knights, three of them had

silver chains. My guess is that that is the reason for the different

tradition--but it is only a guess.





From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 17 Oct 91 17:20:47 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


In article <wcyo8DK00WB5QaYG4p at andrew.cmu.edu> ag1v+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz) writes:


>These badges were passed before the College of Arms knew a great deal about

>medieval armory.  So some of the badges are tinctureless (i.e. without



I afraid that just isn't so.  The SCA was working with armory for a

few years before badges--especially with no tinctures--were thought

up.  Badges were invented in the Society to cover registration of

things that could be described but (for various reasons) weren't vaild

as heraldic devices.  The specific item that caused this to happen



The Roman Numerals, MX-bar,


Which is registered to--


        --Hal Ravn


        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)


Hal Heydt                    |    The workers united . . .

Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |      Threw off their chains . . .

510-823-5447                 |        And the state is withering away.

whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM    |



From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 18 Oct 91 23:41:57 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago


Euriol cites a story about a Baron in Poland forcing his peasants to

grow and eat potatoes, in order to overcome their prejudice. There

are a couple of problems with this sort of story as evidence. To

begin with, even if true, it only shows that people at one place in

one time regarded potatoes as poisonous. Further, unless you have

actually seen the story in a source contemporary with the events, you

should regard it with considerable scepticism. Good stories get

repeated, whether or not they are true, so one should, in my view,

suspect any historical anecdote sufficiently entertaining to have

survived on its literary merits. This is true of SCA history as well.

Despite the usual tag about the king who declared war on himself, I

was king of neither the East nor the Middle at the time Pennsic was






From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 21 Oct 91 17:49:05 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


Since no one else has taken up this task, I guess it falls to me to

announce that on Wednesday last (October 16), Lady Ellen

Crossed-Quills (Ellen Hodghead) died.


She died at home with her family.  She had recently been in the

hospital with a severe case of pneumonia and had been allowed to go

home the previous day.  She is survived by her husband, Master Beverly

Hodghead, children including David of Illwerlaine and Duchess Marynel

of Darkhaven and grandchildren.


Ellen, while not at the original party in Diana's back yard, was

active in the Society for many years.  While Master Beverly was

'Master Artificer' for the Kingdom of the West and helped many of us

with advice, tools and teaching, Ellen tended the 'domestic'

development of the SCA.  her home was always available for sewing and

cooking and she helped many of those you think of as old timers get

their feet settled properly in the SCA.  It was for Ellen that the

West Kingdom AA-level service award was instituted, and she was the

first recipient.


She will be missed by all of us who were touched by her life.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom



From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 23 Oct 91 15:38:20 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


In article <1991Oct22.034728.4913 at midway.uchicago.edu> ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) writes:


>"I *love* facts "everybody knows" are "wrong"!" (NicMaoilan)


>This sounds like a good beginning for a thread. Presumably it should

>include both things "everyone knows are period" that aren't, and

>things "everyone knows are not period" that are.


[Several interesting examples deleted.]


Here's one for the first category.  I have run into any number of

folks who think that "eric" is a period term for lists or the border

to the lists.  In fact, it is an SCA construct.  The first

field-edge-marker in the Society was made of red cloth held up by

stakes made of coat-hanger wire.  It was nicknamed "Eric the Red".

Later, when more border was needed, a second batch was made of yellow

cloth and was known as "the yellow peril". Along about this time the

two became collectively know as 'the eric'.  Now it seems that it is

becoming common to refer to filed enclosed by the eric (which properly

ought to be called "the Lists") is being referred to as "the eric".




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)



From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 28 Oct 91 03:54:55 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago


           Samuel and the Origins of the Horde


"The point of this conspiracy was to puncture the pretentions of

various high muckety-mucks who were parading around and saying "I'm

the Duke of this (or Baron Yattablat), and y' gotta bow'n'scrape t'

me, 'cause yer only a peasant"." (Sam'l Bassett, describing the

origins of the Dark Horde).


Samuel's ability to read minds from two thousand miles away must have

been very useful to him as Steward--which may explain some of the

early history of the Society. Having been a little closer to the

origin of the Horde, I would suggest that his interpretation is not

entirely correct. To begin with a minor point, there were no dukes in

the Middle Kingdom at the time the horde was formed and very few

barons. The original core group of the horde, so far as I could tell,

did not consist of people who had already been active in the Society,

disliked what they saw, and reacted against it, but rather of a group

of friends who had observed the Society and decided how they would

like to enter and interact.


The basic idea (other than Yang's desire to do something dramatic and

interesting), so far as I could judge, was to provide an "enemy" to

the Middle Kingdom, on the theory that doing so would be not only fun

but useful--that a group of people who believed in the same

underlying ideas of honor that the orthodox members of the kingdom

professed to believe in but clothed them in different forms and

refused to put themselves under the moral authority of the existing

Kingdom hierarcy would provide both dramatic tension and some useful

competition. This plan ran into the same difficulty that sometimes

upsets SCA wars--the tendency of people to take too seriously the

conflict that is being used to shape the drama of what is being done.

After some years Yang apparently concluded that it was not working,

and started publicly announcing that the Horde was not really the

enemy after all. A while after that he dropped out, and I have only

casual observation on later developments.


"There was, you see, a time once long ago when a branch was trying to

form somewhere in the southeastern United States, and they had some

of the same problems you're having.  The East Kingdom was for some

reason unable to attend to them, so they wrote to the other Kingdoms

(all three of them) for help.  Atenveldt immediately wrote back with

bushels of helpful documents and outpourings of advice. The BoD

recognized the fait accompli and granted the whole southern U.S.

(what is now Meridies, Ansteorra, and Trimaris) to Atenveldt."



This is a somewhat misleading description of what happened. There

were at least two existing groups, both already formed and (as I

remember) having existed for a while, in the area in question--one in

Florida and one in Georgia (Wyvernwood and South Downs). Both were

part of the East Kingdom. Someone (or more than one) in the Georgia

group wrote the board expressing a preference for being in Atenveldt.


The Board did not consult the King of the East. The board did not ask

for the opinions of other people in the area. The board did not

inform the King of the East that it was considering transfering a

large part of his kingdom to Atenveldt. The board did not even inform

the King of the East after the transfer that it had occurred. The

King of the East first discovered that a sizable chunk of his kingdom

had been given to Atenveldt as a result of a passing mention in a

letter from a Society official some months later! The result was a

challenge by the then King of the East to the Board of Directors for

dishonorable behavior, which the board declined to accept, apparently

in the belief that as a mundane institution it had no obligation to

act honorably. I could probably dig a copy out of my files if I

looked long enough. The whole incident was one of the reasons,

although probably not the first, that many people in the East Kingdom

regarded the national organization with considerable distrust.


Incidentally, the area in question was not "what is now Meridies,

Ansteorra, and Trimaris." What is now the barony of Axemoor (New

Orleans) was transferred to Atenveldt from the Middle Kingdom, not

from the East, more than a year earlier. That transfer was done

properly--by the King of the Middle at the request of the people in

the area. Ansteorra was never a part of the East Kingdom; I do not

know when it became part of Antenveldt, but since it lies between the

original Aten lands and the area granted to Atenveldt by the Middle,

I assume it happened before the incidents Dorothea is describing. The

original East/West boundary, as I remember, was the Mississippi; the

East ceded its western lands and the West some of its Eastern to the

Middle when the Middle was created.


Cariadoc of the Bow, sometime King of the Middle, sometime King of

the East



From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Date: 1 Nov 91 04:05:13 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley


In article <9110311745.AA09239 at isi.com> kevin%rome.dnet at isi.COM (Kevin Davis Connery) writes:

>Fairly obviously, the sovereign of an existing nation [Queen Elizabeth, or

>Prince Ranier (sp?)] would have enough. What about some of the

>'lesser' nations, which may go through a dozen monarchs in as many years,

>with perhaps no more support than some of the SCA kingdoms have?


>Where does the game end, and reality start?


Way back when, in the days when Caid was still part of the West,

we had somebody who worked on the staff of the Western White House

(for you kids who don't go back that far, that was the Orange County

working-vacation place of then-President R. M. Nixon). Our staffer

always delivered invitations to every Caidan tourney to the social

secretary, who would always reply with a polite written regrets.

We never really expected that Nixon would come to a tourney.  But

we were agreed that if he _did,_ he would be treated as a visiting

foreign dignitary and permitted to wear his quaint native costume

(suit, tie, etc.).  But the Secret Service people he would have to

bring with him would have to wear garb.





From: assbc1 at acad2.alaska.edu

Date: 2 Nov 91 02:44:42 GMT

Organization: University of Alaska


>> Bland the Black writes:


>>>And if we truly wished to lay claim to a wee spot o land, I don't believe

>>>antarctica is taken ...

>> Speaking as a member of the group closest to Antarctica, we may have to

>> consider this an encroachment. :)

>> ...

>> -- Richard.



Speaking as a mamber of the west who was told y the BOD that this was NOT a

good idea,...


we had a memebr down at McMurdo base for a while and tried to claim it,...

Needless to say there are treaties that forbid doing this even in jest (or in

the SCA). the BOD said no,...


Tucken deMontfort, LordAshford

Keeper of the Ducal Sheep



From: assbc1 at acad2.alaska.edu

Date: 2 Nov 91 03:04:54 GMT

Organization: University of Alaska


Unto the member of the most noble and comunicative order of the Rialto,

Greeting from Tucken deMontfort, Lord Ashford,...


Several years ago when I was but a lad in the shire of Winter'sgate, in the

northern marches of the West, there was a man who worked, mundainely, for the local universtiy.


This man was a great scholar was much learning in the deapest and most occult

siences known to man or God (he had a PhD. in plasm Physics and SNOW FLAKE

STUDIES, no joke, we have a whole department up here that deals with snow

flakes, but I digress).


Once every year, when the winds would blow and winter would settle round our

lands he would travel, on a swift ship (coast gaurd cutter) to the southern

lands (Antarctica). He would weather there for the winter (counting flakes and

looking at the Aurora Australis) and then return to our happy shire.


When, by the grace of God and the might of the sword, we drove the invaders

from the south far from our land and settled our borders with Trolls of

Selvergard, we were granted the right to enoble our dear lady Morgana O'yrfa

and she was placed in her rightfull role as Baroness Winter'sgate. At this

juncture we found that we had the right to create shires, riddings, and



Such was our obligation to civilize the world and bring the true light of the

West to those dark shores that our freind suggested that we petition to form

the shire of the South Lands. The BOD ruled that this was unacceptable because

of continuity (we then stated the they should just give everything between the

north and south pole to our Barony and we would administrate it {no, that story

alone is to long to post})


Needless to say we were unable to proceed with plans of colinization.


Please note* International Law FORBIDS the claiming of any parts of the

Antartic continent, even for fun or in jest*


I thought that last part was funny when I found out that we could have cause an

international incident if some one in a forieng country had found out and

decided to use it as leverage,...{hee,hee,hee}



From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 2 Nov 91 17:41:56 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


In article <1991Nov1.115006.1 at idicl1.idi.battelle.org> henderson at idicl1.idi.battelle.org writes:

>Would it not also be interesting to see how the "second" or "third"

>(are we old enough to have a "third"?) generation is faring?  By the

>"second" generation, I mean gentles who were born to parents in the SCA

>and have themselves joined into "The Dream" as adults (or near adults).


Depending on how tight you want to run the definitions, I cite the

example of Liam MacMaire (Bill Hodghead), is old enough for there

to be a *4th* generation.  His grandfater and an aunt (Master Beverly

Hodghead and Duchess Marynell of Darkhaven) were at the Original Party

and his father was Lord Chancellor of the Kingdom of the West for many



We have recently had Count Stephen of Bellatrix as King. His parents

joined the Society when he was a child--and, indeed, his younger

brother was born in the Society.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)


Thorfinn Halfblind


Re: Antarctic Claims

4 Nov 91


My lords, I must repeat this once again

Many many moons ago, back when the world was but freshly formed, and there were only a handful of Kingdoms, the Barony of Winters Gate did send one of its members, Joshua the Bleak, to these Fabled Lands, to claim them in the name of the Lord Protector of the Western Lands of Oertha, the Baroness of Winter's gate, and through them, the Crown of the West.

A year or so later, we recieved word from Joshua that he had, indeed, planted the banner of the Barony on the South Pole.

A year after that, Lord John of the Brownwoods did plant a banner upon the North Pole, and did claim all lands between these two banners as Crown Lands and Hunting Preserve of the Prince and Princess of Oertha, to be overseen by the Baroness of Winter's Gate.  (The Crown of the West also has priveleges there as well . . .)

While he still worked for Alaska Fish and Game, he did defend this challenge every fall when he was flown to the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to count caribou.  (The wording of the challenge was that any crown that did wish to claim these lands would meet the forces of Oertha at the time and place of His Highness' choosing.  John was the autocrat, and he held the event up in ANWR.  Mostly because his garb was warm, comfortable, and allowed him to blend in to the scenery.)

For nearly 5 years, the Oerthan claim to these lands, and all lands between, has gone unchallenged.  Even the other Kingdoms have acquiesed in this claim, by paying the true and just excise tax to Oertha as the challenge states.  (Something about a ready supply of water and summer weather shipped north at the owners expense . . . the wording was deliberately vague.)

Thorfinn Halfblind.  Who dearly remembers the day when Eric Bearsbane, as Prince of Oertha was presented with the notice about the vast holdings he was prince of, by a Barony that fielded two fighters at the time.



From: trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)

Date: 6 Nov 91 20:19:55 GMT

Organization: Open Communications Forum


In article <9111022307.AA10165 at emil.csd.uu.se> vader at emil.csd.uu.se (ke Eldberg) writes:

>William de Corbie greets the people of the Net!


>I remember seeing some non-SCA royalty (Acre? Markland?) at Pennsic,

>and hearing various comments about how they should be treated. Opinions

>ranged from "They're just a bunch of jerks who couldn't hack it in the

>SCA, so they formed their own group -- mostly so they could give

>themselves all the titles they wanted", to "They are nice people,

>very authentic, very courteous, an interesting group..."


>The SCA is "the known world". We do not claim to be the whole world,

>and I have no problem with royalty from "unknown" parts of the world.

>Their titles should be honored according to what we know about their

>meaning. If we call someone "His majesty of the Kingdom of Acre", or

>"Sir Beowulf Burger of/from the Kingdom of Acre", we are not giving

>them SCA rank, while maintaining diplomatic courtesies. They are

>simply foreigners from a little-known part of the world.


>Some people at Pennsic seemed to think that we should not recognize

>the non-SCA titles at all, and that the foreign royalty should not

>have been received in court. I think we are so big that we can

>afford to be generous to other groups with similar interests.

>It's a test of our courtesy that we are able to admit that there *are*

>other medieval groups who have the same right to exist as we do, and

>with whom we might enjoy a fruitful exchange of knowledge. I see no

>point in being annoyed at them for not joining our particular version

>of the Middle Ages -- and that's the only real reason I can see for

>wanting to refuse and ignore them.


>Wether it's in good taste to march in at an SCA event and claim royal

>rank, without having been invited as such by the SCA royalty, is a

>different matter. I think it's presumptous and bad manners. (I'm

>not sure wether this was really what happened at Pennsic.)


>Of course, recognition of titles only applies when these people are

>with us explicitly as foreign visitors, e.g. an embassy that comes to

>a particular event. If they are also active on a regular basis in the

>SCA, then I don't think that their ranks & titles should have any

>weight here. If someone went around at an SCA event presenting himself

>as "Prince so-and-so" of this or that other group, I would probably ask

>him wether he had been invited by the ruling SCA monarchs, or if he was

>an official ambassador from his group -- and if not, I would ask him to

>stop using his foreign title.




Long ago, in the Kingdom of the West, the MacFlandrys stood guard for her

Majesty, the present Queen of the Mundane British. I seriously doubt that it

crossed *anyone's* mind to question this good lady as to her affiliation with

the SCA! At least I certainly hope not...


I believe this was not done as an *official* business of the SCA, Inc., but

I was not a member then, so cannot attest personally to't. The MacFlandrys have

remained quite proud of this distinction, and to this day mention it in company

flag ceremonies.


As you see, this is not so moot a point as some of you imagine...


NicMaoilan, proud to be a MacFlandry




From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 26 Nov 91 06:40:09 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


" "Regency of Deaton Claymore (1st in SCA)."  I thought Michael of

Boarshaven (Midrealm's) was pretty early." (Tim McDaniel, quoting



I believe Rakkurai was regent for either Akbar or Murad during the

end of his reign, but I might be wrong and do not recall the details;

it was just before I moved east. That would be long before Michael of






From: cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.COM (CoreDumps`R'Us)

Date: 26 Nov 91 08:16:46 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Ok, I admit it - I'm confused.  Our friend Ioseph of Locksley has posted

up the history of Atenvedlt which was, at least for me, a joy to read

(especially since I knew only a little Aten history previously).

However, in his "pre-history" bits, he stated that the following things

happened at the first 12th Night in the West (ASII):


- the first knights

- the first master of arms

- the first laurels

- the first members of the order of the rose


Now I may not be Banner Herald anymore, but that's only 2 days old,

and I havn't handed over the last bits of paperwork from the office

yet.  To wit, the original ceremony text from the first 12th night is

still in my desk drawer at work (because I promised some months ago

to fill in the missing text, but have not yet found the time - I'll

finish it real soon - I promise!!!  I have to now, before I turn over

my files to Vesper)


Anyway, the original ceremonies from 12th night AS 2, on the original

paper even, has no mention of the order of the rose whatsoever.


Now here's where this gets problematic: I know that the text I have

was used as the "script" for that 12th night.  I also know that it

was embellished upon during the actual event.  For example, the fealty

oath in the ceremony text is very short and very simple, and they didn't

use it!  They added in the fealty oath that Dorothea wrote, and there

is NO WRITTEN RECORD that they did so.  How do I know this?  Because

after Dorothea's recent TI article, I asked her why the original

ceremony text and her account of 12th night AS 2 in TI were at variance.

So she told me, and a few other people who were there at that event

remembered it also.


So I'm now confused again.  Did the order of the Rose really get created

at 12th Night AS 2 (and the ceremony text is again at variance with what

happened), or did it really happen at some later event? Can we hear

from our fossi...uh...oldtimers as to what really happened?


Twcs (that's "Tux" gone welsh...frightening thought, isn't it?)



From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 26 Nov 91 16:56:22 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


In article <1991Nov26.062909.11881 at watserv1.waterloo.edu> bwettlau at watserv1.waterloo.edu (The Guy In Black) writes:

>I don't see the problem.  Actually, in the Middle, Pelicans and Laurels are

>called upon to swear fealty.  The thing is (again, in the middle), the oath

>is to the Kingdom and Crown, not an individual, and must be renewed every

>reign (if the knight shows up at court, that is). Masters at Arms have to

>swear oaths too ... to the Kingdom and the Populace. Knighthood is based upon

>fealty and service, and I cannot ever imagine it any other way.  Now mind you,

>I'm the last person who would become a knight, being a mercenary and all.


Ahem . . .  I suggest that reading Corpora on this topic is in order.

(And here is where I regret that we do not have a machine-readable

copy to hand--and I'm going to make inquiries about it tonight.)


I think you will find that *no*one* may be compelled to make an oath.


Here, Laurels and pelicans are *asked* if they wish to swear fealty.

There are no repercussions if they decline.


Those being elevated to the Chivalry are *asked* if they wish to be

Knights or Masters.  The differences are those of regalia and being

asked to swear fealty at every Coroantion and Investiture.


Within SCA history, Masters-at-Arms were created because one of those

who was to be made Knight was a divinity student and was bound *not*

to swear to serve any Earthly power.  Since then, as now, the degree

to which Society Oaths of Fealty are taken seriously was unclear, he

could not in good conscience make such an oath.


To this day, I am willing to defend--under my oath of fealty--a king

whom I do not, personally, like.  I am also bound by that oath to tell

a king when he is in error.  I take my oaths seriously, even as I

understand that the SCA is an elaborate form of play-acting.  Even with

that understanding, I will not be willingly forsworn.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)



From: habura at vccnorthe.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)

Date: 26 Nov 91 22:14:38 GMT

Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY


Yes, indeed, the Dominion of Myrkfaelinn is an official SCA group. I believe

that it is the only Dominion in the SCA. It has unique requirements and

priveleges, which seem to give it 1) at least partial independence from the

Crown of the East and 2) a lot of the priveleges of a Province without the

bureaucratic requirements. Legend has it that the charter for the group

(written many, many moons ago) was presented to the Royalty completely

written in Old Norse. The Royalty signed the charter without being able to

read it. I understand that all charters must now include an English

translation, mostly as a result of this incident.

This is hearsay, picked up at a Myrkfaelinn event (one of my old high-school

friends, who I got into the SCA, went to Cornell and acted as Myrkfaelinn's

Seneschal for a few years). I cannot swear to any of this, as I had not even

heard of the SCA when all this happened.


Alison MacDermot



From: dew at ecl.psu.edu (Yo-Dur, the Nehi-master)

Date: 26 Nov 91 21:43:52 GMT

Organization: Orluk Oasis


In article <1991Nov25.182444.13731 at watson.ibm.com>, mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

> Ioseph, thanks for posting this.  It was fun.  One quibble:


>>   The following Kingdoms of the SCA came out of Atenveldt:


>>                     Atenveldt

>>                     Meridies

>>                        Atlantia

>>                        Trimaris

>>                     Ansteorra

>>                     Outlands


> Beg pardon?  Atlantia was never part of Meridies; it was a principality of

> the East.  


> ===========================================================================

> Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald              Josh Mittleman


Sorry Arval, but he's right.  I was living in what was East, then Atenveldt,

then Meridies, then East, then Atlantia.  Now there's a barony there (called

Hidden Mountain...imagine that).


You young folks just don't remember those days...


Dur (it's been too long...)


Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain          

dew at ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis, somewhere in the East



Gerald O'Leary

Yo-Dur, the Nehi-master

Re: Atenveldt History

2 Dec 91


Whoops.  Let's try again.  To noble Dur and all others who might read this greetings from Gyrth Oldcastle of Ravenspur.  No, Arval is right.  The story is that in the long ago (about Pennsic 3) , there was one fellow in the deep south (Georgia) named Kalakon Kal the Armless.  One thing led to another and he petitioned the Board to rearrange the universe.  This they did by fiat amd gave the very young Meridies (maybe not even Meridies, maybe just Atenveldt) Georgia and Florida which up until then were property of the Eastern Crown.  They informed the monarchs of the East of this abridgment after the fact.  Atlantia was never held by any Crown save the East (and the West I suppose) and the glorious monarchs of Atlantia, fairest of all kingdoms.

Duke Gyrth Oldcastle





From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 27 Nov 91 17:21:29 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


In article <9111260816.AA04945 at sjosu1.sinet.slb.com> cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.COM (CoreDumps`R'Us) writes:

>Anyway, the original ceremonies from 12th night AS 2, on the original

>paper even, has no mention of the order of the rose whatsoever.


>Now here's where this gets problematic: I know that the text I have

>was used as the "script" for that 12th night.  I also know that it

>was embellished upon during the actual event.  


To the best of Dorothy's recollection, the Order of the Rose was

created then also.  She speculates that a piece of the scroll might be



You might also consult with Flieg, Richard of Mont-Royal (he dropped

by BART practice last Thurs.), and Diana.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)



Hal Heydt                    |    David Duke is to Patrick Buchannan

Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |      as

510-823-5447                 |    Dan Quayle is to George Bush.



From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 11 Dec 91 23:03:58 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


In article <8794 at optilink.UUCP> samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett) writes:

>From article <1991Dec3.165758.28734 at pbhya.PacBell.COM>, by whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt):

>> Back when there were only four Dukes in the Society (Quick!  How many

>> of you can name them?), it was jokingly claimed that in order to

>> become a Duke you needed to left-handed and a programmer . . .


>       Henrik, Fulk, Richard, & Siegfried


Very good Sam'l . . .  (I'm surprised you could--you've been around a

fair while.)


Notice that three of these four still come to events at least

occasionally--which says (I think) something for the staying power of

the SCA in the "hearts and minds".




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)



From: justin at inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)

Date: 12 Dec 91 23:00:07 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Duncan MacKinnon asks if there exists a written history of the SCA. The

answer (not surprisingly) is, "Yes and No".


There is no single source of history of the Society. On the other hand,

there are a considerable number of small sources, that have written up

*some* history of the Society. Some of these books describe relatively

small bits of history (such as the Fattylumpkinlied, an epic poem about

the King of the Midrealm and his cohorts going on a road trip); some

describe large chunks, spanning a fair number of years (such as the

incomplete (but terribly interesting) History of the Midrealm Kings).


(Both of the above sources are available from Folump Enterprises in

the Midrealm, my favorite source of curious SCA booklets.)


Basically, there's a lot out there, but you have to look around for

it. Some Kingdoms have Royal Historians, who are more or less active

in organizing the digging out of their Kingdoms' histories; these

people are often useful sources for learning what exists.


>     Would it be possible to do this with as little Politics and

>Bad Blood (tm) as possible?


It could, but there are hazy lines there. One person's Politics

is another's Critical History. The nasty politics often drive a

Kingdom for years afterwards, and strongly influence its development.

The best compromise that I've seen is to just report the facts as

best you can, without trying to make value judgements, and to try

and see all of the sides involved. If you can manage to see *why*

everyone did what they did, you will probably produce a decently

fair account.


>I can think of many other applications for such a text, although

>I think it would be quite huge. Divided by kingdom, perhaps?


Almost certainly. Consider this: the simple timeline of the history

of the East, in pure skeleton format (which my lady is working on),

looks to be several dozen pages by the time she's finished. Now

consider how large an undertaking a complete history of the Known

World would be...


Besides, the broader a history is, the shallower it tends to be. A

history of the entire Known World could be interesting, but it would

almost certainly have to omit most of those anecdotes and stories

that make the History of the SCA so fascinating. Better to have

histories of the various Kingdoms, instead -- by taking a narrower

focus, they can explore their regions a bit more thoroughly...


>Of course, a form of such a text may already exist somewhere out

>there...if so, please let me know. Also, let me know what you

>think of starting such a project...good, bad, or "c. Hello!"      


Talk to your Kingdom Historian about it; most are always interested

in more people who are interested in helping out. Or simply start

doing it -- collecting history, at whatever level, is almost always

fun and educational...


                                -- Justin du Coeur

                                   Transcriber First Class for the

                                     Eastrealm Royal Historian



From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 12 Dec 91 23:29:13 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


In article <1991Dec8.001819.2095 at agora.uucp> trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks) writes:

>In article <8794 at optilink.UUCP> samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett) writes:

>>From article <1991Dec3.165758.28734 at pbhya.PacBell.COM>, by whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt):

>>> Back when there were only four Dukes in the Society (Quick!  How many

>>> of you can name them?), it was jokingly claimed that in order to

>>> become a Duke you needed to left-handed and a programmer . . .


>>      Henrik, Fulk, Richard, & Siegfried


>An oldtime SCA friend of mine says "What about Douglas Longshanks and William

>of Houghton?"


They were both much later.  After James Greyhelm and Paul of

Bellatrix.  Those first 4 were Dukes before the beginning of AS V.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)



23 Jan 92

From: dew at ecl.psu.edu (Dur, Aga-Khan)

Organization: Orluk Oasis




Alberic writes;


> On this thread we've been following about Newbies on the throne and crown

> lust, What about Michael-(of boarshaven?)-the Damned.

> The way midrealm ledgend goes, he was a newbie king, something went bad,

> and he's the reason that the Midrealm is the only kingdom to have

> an 'invite only' crown tourney.  (crown list)


Michael of Boarshaven (now refered to as M. the unfortunate) was not a

"newbie", but the first non-chivalry fighter to sit the the Middle's throne.


If I remember correctly, the invitational nature of the crown tourney

preceeded Micheal by a few years.  


Cariadoc would remember better than I, as he sat on that "thorn" more than I.




Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain          

dew at ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)



25 Jan 92

From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Old fart


In article <11541 at bwdls58.bnr.ca> hwt at bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup) writes:

>I've heard that originally the Renaissance was included

>because its music and dance were much more accessible.


        Naaahhh -- I've said it before, and I'll repeat it:


        The reason for the 16(mumble) cutoff date was to allow

Scotscritters (specifically Edwin Berseark) to wear kilts of the modern

style, since the earliest documented use of such kilts (as distinct from

the Great Kilt, with umpteen yards of scratchy wool) was in 16(mumble).


        No more, no less.



Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator        (among other silly things)

Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253

Home: 7 Gothic Court, Novato  CA  94947;             1-415-897-7424

UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb;                Internet: samlb at well.sf.ca.us



31 Jan 92

From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


>I get the impression that winning a Crown Tourney in the West pretty much

>guarantees one an invitation into the Order of Chivalry.


It used to be (many years ago) that getting into the finals would get

one knighted on the spot.  This is no longer true.  It was never

"automatic", but it was very close.


>Please enlighten me.


One of the factors is (probably) that, on the whole, the West has had

a consistently tough Crown Lists.  In the easrly days of the Society,

visting Westerners in the East and Middle were reputed to well-nigh

indestructable.  The major change seems to have occured around the

time of TYC when large numbers of fighters from all over the SCA were

able to play together for the first time and calibrations and armor

standards evened out much more than they had previously. In the mean

time, Society-wide fighting got better and the number of entrants in

the crown lists in the larger kingdoms grew considerably. Also in the

West, the up-and-coming-young-fighters cut their teeth on Principality

lists (and there have been a number of Princes who were unbelted--indeed,

Cynagua has one now).  The overall effect has been to minimize the

chance of a new, rough-edged, un-aculturated fighter winning.  Once

you've worn the rough edges off, aculturated 'em into the SCA, taught

them to dance, play chess, etc., have some manners  . . . Around here

they get brought into the Order of Chivalry and you don't tend to wind

up with unbelted kings.




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 510/524-8321 (home)



Michael of Boarshaven - "newbie" King?

31 Jan 92

From: mc3078c%future at uunet.uu.NET ("Michael A. Chance - HQ")

Organization: The Internet


Greetings to the folk of the Rialto!


Michael of Boarshaven has been cited a couple of times lately as an example

of the dangers of "newbie" Kings, as a couple of folks stated that his is

not a valid case, since he was not a newbie when he won the Midrealm crown.

I've managed to find some source material in my library on the matter; I'll

merely present it in summary, and let you decide.


**WARNING** : Michael of Boarshaven is still a very touchy subject with

many Midrealmers, especially those living in Illinois and Indiana at the

time of his reign.  Since we try to keep the Rialto free of flamefests,

it's probably best if discussions of the actual events of his reign are

discussed via private Email or offline.


Orlando Ambrosius' histories of the Middle Kingdom imply that Michael of

Boarshaven became active in the SCA in the Barony of Wurmwald (Champaign-

Urbana, IL) sometime in the late winter-early spring of 1974 (AS VII).  He

became primarily interested in SCA combat, and seemed to be concerned with

little else of the Current Middle Ages.  That spring, he became squired to

Merowald de Sylveaston, and later (upon his knighting) Polidor Haraldsson.

He participated in the Third Pennsic War, and is accounted as the only man

to fight his way out of the castle siege (although the incident is

described as controversial).  He was a semi-finalist in the Crown tourney

in the fall of 1974 (AS VIII).  In the time following this Crown tourney,

and the next spring Crown tourney, the only mention of Michael is that he

travelled to many tourneys, several of which he won.


It is not recorded by Ambrosius as to the exact nature of the Crown

Tourney held in May, AS IX, other than to state that the last six places in

the tourney were decided by a competition held at the coronation of Rolac

and Lindenlorian, one of which was won by Michael of Boarshaven.  Michael

then proceeded to win the ensuing Crown tournament, defeating Sir Polidor

in the finals.  Ambrosius records that most of the notables of the Middle

Kingdom considered Michael a "newbie"; Ambrosius also adds the following



"Michael was thought of as a newcomer, despite the fact that he had been

active for more than a year on the periphery of the Society; it should be

remembered that in these days most men created knights had been in the

Society for only one or two years."


CAVEAT: Orlando Ambrosius' books (I have used "Brief History of the Middle

Kingdom, Volume II" and "Histories of the Midlands Kings, Volume I") are,

as are nearly all histories, written with a certain amount of political and

personal bias (the author has admitted as much to me, albeit grudgingly).

These books are published by Folump Enterprises.


DISCLAIMER: The events described above took place many years before I

joined the Society, and are merely summarized from the cited sources.  I

have no firsthand knowledge, and only second- and third-hand retellings of

the tales.


I hope that these writings have helped in some small way.


Mikjal Annarbjorn,

Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir

Barony of Shattered Crystal, Midrealm


UUCP : uunet!texbell!future!mc3078c

Internet : mc3078c at future.sbc.com



3 Feb 92

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


"He participated in the Third Pennsic War, and is accounted as the only man

to fight his way out of the castle siege (although the incident is

described as controversial)." (Mikjal Annarbjorn, summarizing an

account of Michael of Boarshaven by Orlando Ambrosius)


Controversial? I would have said impossible. When we showed up at the

midrealm castle at Pennsic 3 it was held by one man, Dagen, then

Prince of the Middle. The King of the Middle had calculated that if

he lost the castle but no fighters he would still win on points (we

were using a complicated system, where you got points for killing

people as well as taking things), so he left the castle undefended,

and his Prince demonstrated his view of the strategy by holding it

himself. Michael was not in it, so he could not have fought his way

out of it. He might have fought his way out of the hilltop battle.





Re: SCA (Pennsic) history

4 Feb 92

From: cpg3078%swuts at uunet.uu.NET (Mike Chance)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: The Internet


Greeting unto the folk of the Rialto!


His Grace, Duke Cariadoc writes:

> "He participated in the Third Pennsic War, and is accounted as the only man

> to fight his way out of the castle siege (although the incident is

> described as controversial)." (Mikjal Annarbjorn, summarizing an

> account of Michael of Boarshaven by Orlando Ambrosius)


> Controversial? I would have said impossible. When we showed up at the

> midrealm castle at Pennsic 3 it was held by one man, Dagen, then

> Prince of the Middle. The King of the Middle had calculated that if

> he lost the castle but no fighters he would still win on points (we

> were using a complicated system, where you got points for killing

> people as well as taking things), so he left the castle undefended,

> and his Prince demonstrated his view of the strategy by holding it

> himself. Michael was not in it, so he could not have fought his way

> out of it. He might have fought his way out of the hilltop battle.


It is possible that I have the battles confused. The paragraph that I

summarized into that one sentence is herein recounted in full:


"At the Third Battle of the Pennsic War, Michael distinguished himself on

the one aspect and created a lasting enemy on the other. It was at this

war that Bearengaer Rex held the field battle in a fortress.  The Oriental

host outnumbered that of the Midrealm; and it fairly overwhelmed Bearengaer

and his fellows.  In the assault, only two of the Midrealm's defenders

lived.  One was knocked down in the first wave and lived only because he

was unable to stand and thus was accounted to be dead by the Orieintal

host.  The second was Michael, who saw the misfortune and fought his way

without the fortress.  He then walked around the edge of the circle and

would tap an Eastern fighter on the shoulder; when that fighter turned

around, Michael would kill him.  This was, it should be noted, entirely

within the rules of the battle; but the Prince of the East, Anghois Dubh,

took exception to it and took it to be a dishonorable action.  Setting

aside the irony of this for a moment, it should be noted that Michael was

upset by this accusation and more upset when the Mediterranean chivalry

seemed to agree that Michael's actions were unchivalric."

(from Orlando Ambrosius' "Histories of the Midlands Kings, Vol. I"; the

author of the tale of Michael of Boarshaven is recorded as "Brian ap Howell

of Barony WurmWald")


(Note: Refer to the caveat in the original post about personal/politcal

bias in histories.)


I do not remember clearly from the tales I have heard about Pennsic III how

the battles were fought that year.  Perhaps His Grace (or some other

Pennsic II veteran(s) could enlighten us.


Mikjal Annarbjorn

Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir

Barony of Shattered Crystal, Midrealm



5 Feb 92

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

Reply-To: ddfr at midway.uchicago.edu


"The SCA has a nearly universal custom that fancy circlets should

denote rank, and that particular forms of circlet should be reserved

to particular ranks.  So far as I have been able to discover, this

custom derives from Victorian English heraldic custom, and from

nothing else." (Arval)


I do not think this is quite correct. As I remember, from looking

into it many years ago, our system of coronets is based on an English

law of the late seventeenth century. I agree that, so far as evidence

I have seen, the practice of restricting those particular designs to

those particular ranks is out of period for most or all of us.


Mikjal Annarbjorn quotes a chunk of Orlando Ambrosius' "Histories of

the Midlands Kings," involving the third battle of the Pennsic war,

Michael of Boarshaven, Bearengaer, king of the Middle, and "the

Prince of the East, Anghois Dubh." I suspect that the author is

deliberately mixing elements of two or more Pennsics in order to get

the effect of medieval oral history, but he may just be confused.

Unless my memory has gone completely (old age will do that), Anghois

was prince at Pennsics two and four, and Berengar was King at Pennsic

3. At Pennsic 3 I was prince. I don't remember enough details of the

castle battle at Pennsic 2 to tell if that could be the origin of the

story, but my guess is that it is based on the hilltop battle, not

the castle battle, at Pennsic 3. I don't think we had a castle battle

at Pennsic 4.





5 Feb 92

From: bell at swbatl.sbc.com (Larry Bell - 235-7743)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Southwestern Bell


hwt at bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup) writes:

> dew at ecl.psu.edu (Dur, Aga-Khan) writes:


> While not wanting to drag out Boarshaven stories that I had second hand

> (i.e. from

> people who were there), I've been told that Michael of Boarshaven has

> never attended

> an SCA feast before he won crown.  Nor did he have a lady to fight for.

> So, although perhaps not a 'Newbie' King, he was certainly a King not fully

> socialized in the standards of his Kingdom.


My first view of SCA combat was at a practice that was attended by

Sir Polidor Haraldsson and his then squire, HRM Michael of Boarshaven.

I, as a new fighter, subsequently became one of Polidor's squires also.

As I recall, Michael was a natural athletic talent and had been in the

SCA, mostly as a fighter, for about a year when he won crown.  His first

attendance at court was when he received the Prince's coronet.


Sir William of Bellwood


Larry Bell (314)-235-7743

   bell at swbatl.sbc.com




The costume party vs Academics

15 May 92

From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Old, used Steward


        It's even worse than William surmised -- the Society was indeed

started as a party in Diana's back yard, and continued because people

enjoyed it so much.

        The whole educational thing came in only because the IRS wouldn't

recognize a "permanent floating crap game & tourney" as a legitimate

non-profit tax-exempt entity.  There had to be some "redeeming social

value" to it.

        Considering the fact that the Society has always drawn heavily

from Academia in gathering members (second only to fandom), the idea of

authenticity has been creeping in gradually over the last 25 years or so.

        I predict that by 2050 or so, we will have almost reached the

ordinary levels of authenticity of the Buckskin Brigades, and will be

approaching the (US) Civil War re-creation folk -- maybe 2075, though :-)



Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator        (among other silly things)

Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253

Internet: samlb at optilink.com                     UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb


<the end>

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