SCA-hist1-msg

This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

SCA-hist1-msg - 5/15/92

Msgs on the history of the SCA until 5/92.

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Date: 24 Jan 91 02:06:57 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG

(Alizaunde on Arastorm's account) writes:

> CHECK THE TEXT. I have one book- I regret I can't remember the

>author right now, but we can at least thank our respective Gods that

>it is now out-

>of-print- which describes an entire era of dress with one (original)

>picture and the statement "This style is too ugly to deserve our

>further attention." Ask me how often I hand that out to novices.

O, yes. It gets better--or worse. In 1968, as you may recall, the

Society got its first introduction to the outside world, and vice

versa, at a demo we did for an SF convention called Baycon. They

gave us some money for some explanatory handouts, and Mistress Diana

put out the first edition of the Known World Handbook. Mistress

Hilary sometimes reproduces that first edition for her SCA history

classes, with a disclaimer warning you not to follow any of its

instructions, because it recommends things we don't recommend any

more.

As for example--(short pause for a fruitless search through the bookcase

for my copy; no luck, paraphrase will have to do)--there's a section

on garb, with half a dozen line drawings of the general sort of thing

you're aiming at, and telling you how to adapt McCall's and Simplicity

patterns to make it. And then it says, "We don't recommend you try

to copy _real_ medieval clothing, because it isn't attractive."~

So don't let them tell you we've backslid and gone downhill since the

Good Olde Days. In some categories it's just the reverse.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt

Province of the Mists djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Principality of the Mists University of California,

Kingdom of the West Berkeley

Ioseph of Locksley

Steve Bloch

Re: Too much talk about Pennsic

3 Jun 91

SB>From: sbloch at euclid.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch)

SB>storm at hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden) writes:

SB>>I would love to go to Estrella, or Burro Creek,

SB>>or some of the other long-large events in other parts of the

SB>>Known world.

SB>

SB>If "Burro Creek" is a reference to the (semi)annual mini-War in San

SB>Diego County, I must point out that it hasn't been there for a num-

SB>ber of years (certainly before I came hither), and is now held at

SB>Potrero County Park, which I'm told is an enormous improvement.

SB>(If not, and my memory doth fail of the old site's name, never

SB>mind.)

A bit of history of the Estrella War is in order here....the first one, the Notorious Caid Invitational during the reign of Johnathan (Whytewolfe) I, was held at Estrella Park. The park at that time was seriously undeveloped, so we moved it to Burro Creek Campground, in Northwest Arizona, just north of Wickenburg. We outgrew that in about two or three years, plus we got tired of the blue-haired old ladies in their RV's gawking at us and getting in the way, so Master Zoltan Kovacs (Kirby Wise-Fraser) offered to host it on a plot of land by his place out by Bouse, AZ (in the Middle of Nowhere.) This plot of lad was VERY undeveloped, and these wars are referred to as the "Catbox Wars." Then, Estrella Park was seen to be developed, so we moved it back there.

Currently, the next one will be held at Estrella Park, but after that, we

-may- be moving it to private land....we are outgrowing even that LARGE

County Park.

-Ioseph of Locksley

Who Autocrated Burro Creek I & II

From: steffan at pro-angmar.UUCP (Steven Mesnick)

Date: 7 Jun 91 04:41:39 GMT

Organization: The Internet

There has been some discussion of the history of heralding (specifically,

the making of essential announcements) at Pennsic....

I've been to every Pennsic since 7, and was Chief Herald at 11. Back in the

Early Days [ :-) ], Pennsic was run like Any Other Event. You need an

announcement made? Go find a herald and have him yell. Not too difficult

when the War was a few hundred folks. About PW 10, folks started to realize

that Pennsic wasn't just Any Other Event. At PW 10, Lady Graidhne ni Ruadh

(then Oaken, later Dragon Herald) instituted a roster system whereby

heralds signed up in advance for specific periods during which they would

be "on call". Before this, there had just been a sporadically-manned

Herald's Point -- usually this meant the Chief Herald, and was wherever

s/he happened to be encamped. At PW 11, I intended to work with a

refinement of Graidhne's system, whereby heralds would sign up for specific

*events* insterad of fixed time slots (since events are always being

re-scheduled: if you signed up to herald the bridge battle, you would

herald it no matter when it actually happened). For various reasons, we

didn't do it this way. What we actually did was to establish a set schedule

of "runs", and instructed folks to "just show up" 15 minutes before a run.

This (usually) meant we didn't have to have heralds yell to get heralds,

and it meant we could avoid a constant barrage of messages: we announced

emergency stuff as necessary, but saved everything else for the scheduled

runs. It also allowed us to repeat important messages at set intervals.

(Ask me about the Legend of the Copperheads :-) ). This whole system was

facilitated by the spontaneous establishment at PW 11 of named roads

between major camping areas, in reaction to the chaotic crowding of PW 10.

Anyway, this system has become the standard for Very Large Camping

Events (Pennsic, TYC/TFYC, Estrella [?]), and my scroll says it's one of

the things I got my Pelican for. The funny thing is it wasn't even the system I originally planned to use; it's just the one that worked.

Steffan ap Cennydd

Firebrand

From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 29 Jul 91 21:42:07 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

>Once upon a time . . .

>Those who played with sticks, and did it

>well (or were in the right place at the right time) became knights.

>Those who supported any aspect of the creation of the aforementioned

>ambiance, over and above what could be expected from a sane person

>(and were silly enough to let other people see them do it), became

>Laurels.

>Someone, somewhere (for reasons I once knew but now escape me) decided

>art and service were "different" and should be treated as such. Thus the

>Pelican was born (I do know the BOD had their hand in it). Some of those

>nobles who had been Laureled for service resigned their Laurels and

>received Pelicans.

The Board of Directors--and this is around the time they wanted to be

called "The Imperial Electors"--wanted to be able to give out awards

for those doing Great and Good Deeds on behalf of the entire Society

just like Kingdoms did for those who did likewise for each Kingdom.

This is not (on the face of it) a bad idea. What got overlooked in

the effort is that a Board of Directors isn't a very Medieval idea--whether

you mean "medieval" in the historic sense *or* the romantic sense.

We've discussed, on occassion, one nver reads about King Arthur and

his Pelicans of the Round Table (though we might imagine it could

happen . . .), bet I think even the most fuzzzy view of the SCA would

have problems discussing The *BoD* and it's Knights of the Round Table.

Not very surprisingly, the Kings objected. After some thought--and a

great deal of pressure--the BoD relented and "opened" the Order of the

Pelican to the use of the Kingdoms. Since then there haven't been any

BoD-given Pelicans and the BoD has decied that it is a 20th-century

guardian of the interface between the medieval aspects of the Society

and the 20th century reality we must deal with from the outside. This

realization is a Good Thing. (Believe me--I know. I was a Kingdom

Chronicler when Jon deCles was Steward. Waht's more--I lived within

five miles of him. I don't think there is anyone else--save my Lady

Wife--who gathers news on the Rialto who has ever had to deal with

that rather ghastly combination of misfortunes.)

The upshot of all this was that the OP suffered under a bit of cloud

for some years afterward and has (probably) been part of the feelings

in some quarters that, while all Peerages are equal, some are more

equal than others.

--Hal

Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

Wilson H. Heydt, Jr., Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)

=======================================================================

Hal Heydt | Practice Safe Government

Analyst, Pacific*Bell | Use Kingdoms

415-823-5447 | (seen on a bumper sticker)

whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM |

From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 4 Sep 91 17:23:22 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder) writes:

> "What are the expectations on peers over the course of their SCA lives?"

>Chivalry are not expected to be super-hot fighters into their 70's and 80's

>(though I hear we have a number of skilled fighters in their 50's and 60's).

An anecdote: When Sir Bela of Eastmarch decided that life was tooo

busy to continue to be active in the SCA, and that age made it

impossible to continue to fight actively--he decided to "hang up his

spurs." At that time he offered to retire from his Knighthood. This

offer of retirement of rank was declined. He is *still* a Knight--and

a highly respected one by all who know him. While he may no longer

fight, he remains a source of sage advice and retains tales of the

earliest days of the Society. For those unfamiliar with the gentleman

in question--the rest of the time you may know him as Poul Anderson.

--Hal

Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

Wilson H. Heydt, Jr., Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)

=======================================================================

Hal Heydt | Practice Safe Government

Analyst, Pacific*Bell | Use Kingdoms

415-823-5447 | (seen on a bumper sticker)

whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM |

From: ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder)

Date: 7 Sep 91 02:23:55 GMT

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

A question is asked concerning the growth of the Society, with particular

emphasis on retention/turnover statistics. I can't say much about the

retention/turnover issue (to solve it would require a 1-to-1 matchup

of old printouts/datafiles that may or may not exist), but...

The first issue of TI published during our term as editors, #56 XV,

Fall 1980, had a print run of just over 2,000. Our last print run

for issue #67 had a print run of well over 8,000. So those three

years saw a tripling of our official subscribing membership.

Of course, much of that was pent up demand because of TI's

for-some-time-less-than-dependable publishing schedule,

so I'm sure our actual (contrasted with official) number of

"players" did not increase as rapidly.

Bertram of Bearington

From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)

Date: 19 Sep 91 19:54:40 GMT

Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

From article <1991Sep18.165848.11129 at agora.uucp>, by trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks):

> Interesting... I have always been told one must be a member to hold office

> because of some legal requirement in the charter (arguement being that folk not

> holding membership are not legal representatives of the SCA). Is this just

> another silly SCAurban legend?

> NicMaoilan

> trifid at agora.rain.com

There is a great deal of history to this particular arguement -- it

was one of the bones of contention when I was Steward. The ruling has become

much more explicit than in my day -- there was not an ABSOLUTE requirement

then, as there is now.

The "pro" side of the arguement was that in order to act for the

Society, one had to be a member.

The "con" side usually devolved down to "I don't wanna; there is no

such thing as the Society around _here_ -- we just meet to do things

Medieaval; what does it matter as long as things get done?"

Well, mundane law has some things to be said about membership -- it is

not as clear-cut as one like, but a member is in a much better position to

make deals and contracts for an organization than a non-member is.

As for the first "con" arguement -- we've all had to deal with

snotty adolescents.

For the second -- I note that some Steward after me managed to

settle that particular bit of nonsense -- probably by siccing the IRS on

the "non-existent" organization to ask about the money being collected.

Remember, folks, one of the chief reasons for incorporating the Society

in the first palce was to keep the tax thieves and busibodies out of our

pockets -- just look at how much it costs to publish an issue of your local

Kingdom newsletter, and decide whether you could afford to have all of

that added to your income for taxing purposes . . .

As to the third, Cariadoc and I have been having this arguement for

entirely too long -- I rather agree with the sentiment, and _HE_ does a good

job in all things that I know about, but not everyone has the character and

ability that he does -- one of the problems with Mundania was in keeping the

IRS convinced that the Society was indeed an educational organization which

was/is worthy of having tax-exempt status. If they once get it into their

heads that this is an on-going costume party whose sole reason for existence

is to collect money for drunken orgies -- there goes the exemption.

I assume that one of my successors managed to win the battle with

the Infernal Robbery Skunks, but as late as 1974, it was still iffy . . .

Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator (among other things)

7 Gothic Court, Novato CA 94947; 1-415-897-7424

UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb; Internet: samlb at well.sf.ca.us

Compuserve: 71735,1776; WU Easylink: ESL 6284-3034; MCI: SBassett

From: dcb at cci632.cci.com (Douglas Brainard)

Date: 20 Sep 91 15:23:13 GMT

Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Greetings unto those worthy gentles frequenting the Rialto,

from Corwin of Darkwater!

[Gee, I must be famous now, I've been quoted in a .sig file 8-)]

I "found" the SCA about 12 1/2 years ago. After meeting the seneschal of

Myrkfaelinn, and being told that there was going to be a feast the following

Saturday, I went off with new-found glee, purchased some upholstery fabric

researched a name (AElfwine of Myrkfaelinn), talked a friend into sewing

something together ("Who needs a pattern? Just sew it together here and

there and make it look like the picture!"), bought some feast gear, and

showed up at my first event. Unfortunately, and for entirely mundane

personal reasons, there was a nine year gap between my second and third

event. These things happen. That first event was largely forgotten.

Fortunately for posterity (or not, as you prefer) I recorded my impressions

in a letter that was only recently re-discovered. I hope you find it to be

of some interest. The original text has not been changed. An introduction

ani annotations have been added as an aid to understanding of the text.

A Winter Tourney & Feast

by Lord Corwin of Darkwater

Being an Account

of the

Author's First Event

Annotated by the Author 12 1/2 Years Later

Everyone was new, once. However, it is often difficult to think back and really

understand exactly how you felt about your first event, memories being clouded

by time. The following account was written on the 25th day of February, Anno

Sociatatis XIII, during the reign of Bertrand and Allanda, King and Queen of

the East, that being the day after my first event.

"Saturday I got up and put the finishing touches[1] on my costume[2]. It now

looks as shown[3], and I've included a piece of material[4] that was left

over[5]. It should be re-done[6] someday[7] (to improve on the [ahem] quality)

and I still need[8] shoes, a scabbard, and a hat (to cover the antennae[9], of

course).

Anyway, I went to Cornell[10] at about noon, and learned that I was early, so I

helped out in the kitchen[11] and the dining room for several hours[12]. Then I

watched the tournament (not being able to do anything else but) and got

thoroughly confused[13]. I suppose I'll learn[14].

Afterwards, I went back to the Dining Area[15] early and changed into my

"garb"[16] (the Fighting[17] and Eating[18] areas were separated by a large

expanse of cold outside[19], for which my costume[20] is not suitable[21]).

Dinner began at 7PM, and everyone was quite famished[22]. It was in several

courses[23] (something like the Royale Dump[24]) only the foods were

authentic[25] Middle Ages dishes. Pretty good, too, if you consider that a half

dozen folk had to cook for over 60 people[26] in a kitchen dinkier[27] than

mine.

Everyone loved my costume[28], although no one seemed to remember me[29] (not

surprising, no one had ever met me). All of the locals asked me where I was

from, thinking I was from Boston[30] or Rochester[31] or Buffalo[32], and were

somewhat confused when I said I lived in Ithaca[33]. When I explained that I

was a recent arrival, some of the confusion was cleared up.

Well, after dinner[34] was the dancing[35], which I liked very much, followed

by some court games (Blind Man's Bluff) and more dances. Then, with everyone

somewhat exhausted, it was called a night (being 1:30 in the AM) and all

departed.

____________________

1 SCA Truism: Garb is not to be completed before the day of the event.

2 Garb.

3 Pseudo-medieval girdled mantle. Undertunic by Danskin.

4 Blue, pseudo-silk brocade. I wish I had bought the green, too.

5 SCA Truism: There is always material left over.

6 SCA Truism: All garb needs to be re-done at least once.

7 It never was.

8 SCA Truism: There are never enough accessories.

9 To explain this would require a lengthy discussion of the Galactic

Archives, Imperial Martian Stout, and Fannish Politics in Upstate

New York. Another time.

10 Risley Hall, Myrkfaelinn, AEthelmearc, East

11 SCA Truism: They always need help in the kitchen.

12 Lotsa "Atta boys."

13 I still do.

14 Nope.

15 Feast Hall.

16 Note first use of proper terminology. The presence of the quotation

marks indicates that usage will not continue.

17 List [Erik, in some kingdoms].

18 Feast.

19 This is typical of most winter events in the East.

20 Told you.

21 This is typical of most garb worn at most winter events in the East.

22 SCA Truism: Everyone is hungry by the time the feast is ready.

23 Removes.

24 A Dinner Theater in St. Louis, MO, featuring King Henry VIII, buxom

serving wenches, and a lack of eating utensils.

25 As if I would know.

26 They had it lucky, back then.

27 We are talking SMALL.

28 Garb.

29 In the year XIII of the Society, everyone knew everyone.

30 Carolingia, East

31 Thescorre, AEthelmearc, East

32 Rhydderich Hael, AEthelmearc, East

33 Myrkfaelinn, AEthelmearc, East

34 Feast.

35 Horse's Bransle, etc.

----;----------------------------------------------------------------------

/| Lord Corwin of Darkwater Chroniclers can edit names out

( { Scribe for Brewers as easily as visionaries can

} \ Brewer for Scribes noise them abroad.

/ \ Thescorre, AEthelmearc, East Brother Cadfael

{ } Douglas Brainard, Rochester, NY

\___/ dcb at ccird7.cci.com

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 17 Oct 91 00:35:50 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago

A number of people have mentioned that in the Middle gold chains are

used by knights and silver by squires, while in the East both gold

and silver are used by knights. I would like to offer a guess about

the reason.

A very long time ago, when I was living in the East, I made silver

chains for myself and my blood brothers Asbjorn and Patri. One reason

was that Patri does not wear gold for aesthetic reasons. Another was

that I had come across a reference to a religious prohibition in

Islam against men wearing gold except on the belt (it turns out that

it applies to silver too, but I didn't know that then). Another was

that real silver chains are a lot less expensive to make than real

gold chains, and we liked the idea of real chains. There were

probably other reasons as well.

The result was, that for part of the fairly early history of the

kingdom when there were not all that many knights, three of them had

silver chains. My guess is that that is the reason for the different

tradition--but it is only a guess.

Cariadoc

From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 17 Oct 91 17:20:47 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <wcyo8DK00WB5QaYG4p at andrew.cmu.edu> ag1v+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz) writes:

>These badges were passed before the College of Arms knew a great deal about

>medieval armory. So some of the badges are tinctureless (i.e. without

>color).

I afraid that just isn't so. The SCA was working with armory for a

few years before badges--especially with no tinctures--were thought

up. Badges were invented in the Society to cover registration of

things that could be described but (for various reasons) weren't vaild

as heraldic devices. The specific item that caused this to happen

was--

The Roman Numerals, MX-bar,

Which is registered to--

--Hal Ravn

Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

Wilson H. Heydt, Jr., Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)

=======================================================================

Hal Heydt | The workers united . . .

Analyst, Pacific*Bell | Threw off their chains . . .

510-823-5447 | And the state is withering away.

whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM |

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 18 Oct 91 23:41:57 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago

Euriol cites a story about a Baron in Poland forcing his peasants to

grow and eat potatoes, in order to overcome their prejudice. There

are a couple of problems with this sort of story as evidence. To

begin with, even if true, it only shows that people at one place in

one time regarded potatoes as poisonous. Further, unless you have

actually seen the story in a source contemporary with the events, you

should regard it with considerable scepticism. Good stories get

repeated, whether or not they are true, so one should, in my view,

suspect any historical anecdote sufficiently entertaining to have

survived on its literary merits. This is true of SCA history as well.

Despite the usual tag about the king who declared war on himself, I

was king of neither the East nor the Middle at the time Pennsic was

declared.

Cariadoc

From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 21 Oct 91 17:49:05 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

Since no one else has taken up this task, I guess it falls to me to

announce that on Wednesday last (October 16), Lady Ellen

Crossed-Quills (Ellen Hodghead) died.

She died at home with her family. She had recently been in the

hospital with a severe case of pneumonia and had been allowed to go

home the previous day. She is survived by her husband, Master Beverly

Hodghead, children including David of Illwerlaine and Duchess Marynel

of Darkhaven and grandchildren.

Ellen, while not at the original party in Diana's back yard, was

active in the Society for many years. While Master Beverly was

'Master Artificer' for the Kingdom of the West and helped many of us

with advice, tools and teaching, Ellen tended the 'domestic'

development of the SCA. her home was always available for sewing and

cooking and she helped many of those you think of as old timers get

their feet settled properly in the SCA. It was for Ellen that the

West Kingdom AA-level service award was instituted, and she was the

first recipient.

She will be missed by all of us who were touched by her life.

--Hal

Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 23 Oct 91 15:38:20 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <1991Oct22.034728.4913 at midway.uchicago.edu> ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) writes:

>"I *love* facts "everybody knows" are "wrong"!" (NicMaoilan)

>This sounds like a good beginning for a thread. Presumably it should

>include both things "everyone knows are period" that aren't, and

>things "everyone knows are not period" that are.

[Several interesting examples deleted.]

Here's one for the first category. I have run into any number of

folks who think that "eric" is a period term for lists or the border

to the lists. In fact, it is an SCA construct. The first

field-edge-marker in the Society was made of red cloth held up by

stakes made of coat-hanger wire. It was nicknamed "Eric the Red".

Later, when more border was needed, a second batch was made of yellow

cloth and was known as "the yellow peril". Along about this time the

two became collectively know as 'the eric'. Now it seems that it is

becoming common to refer to filed enclosed by the eric (which properly

ought to be called "the Lists") is being referred to as "the eric".

--Hal

Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

Wilson H. Heydt, Jr., Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 28 Oct 91 03:54:55 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago

Samuel and the Origins of the Horde

"The point of this conspiracy was to puncture the pretentions of

various high muckety-mucks who were parading around and saying "I'm

the Duke of this (or Baron Yattablat), and y' gotta bow'n'scrape t'

me, 'cause yer only a peasant"." (Sam'l Bassett, describing the

origins of the Dark Horde).

Samuel's ability to read minds from two thousand miles away must have

been very useful to him as Steward--which may explain some of the

early history of the Society. Having been a little closer to the

origin of the Horde, I would suggest that his interpretation is not

entirely correct. To begin with a minor point, there were no dukes in

the Middle Kingdom at the time the horde was formed and very few

barons. The original core group of the horde, so far as I could tell,

did not consist of people who had already been active in the Society,

disliked what they saw, and reacted against it, but rather of a group

of friends who had observed the Society and decided how they would

like to enter and interact.

The basic idea (other than Yang's desire to do something dramatic and

interesting), so far as I could judge, was to provide an "enemy" to

the Middle Kingdom, on the theory that doing so would be not only fun

but useful--that a group of people who believed in the same

underlying ideas of honor that the orthodox members of the kingdom

professed to believe in but clothed them in different forms and

refused to put themselves under the moral authority of the existing

Kingdom hierarcy would provide both dramatic tension and some useful

competition. This plan ran into the same difficulty that sometimes

upsets SCA wars--the tendency of people to take too seriously the

conflict that is being used to shape the drama of what is being done.

After some years Yang apparently concluded that it was not working,

and started publicly announcing that the Horde was not really the

enemy after all. A while after that he dropped out, and I have only

casual observation on later developments.

"There was, you see, a time once long ago when a branch was trying to

form somewhere in the southeastern United States, and they had some

of the same problems you're having. The East Kingdom was for some

reason unable to attend to them, so they wrote to the other Kingdoms

(all three of them) for help. Atenveldt immediately wrote back with

bushels of helpful documents and outpourings of advice. The BoD

recognized the fait accompli and granted the whole southern U.S.

(what is now Meridies, Ansteorra, and Trimaris) to Atenveldt."

(Dorothea)

This is a somewhat misleading description of what happened. There

were at least two existing groups, both already formed and (as I

remember) having existed for a while, in the area in question--one in

Florida and one in Georgia (Wyvernwood and South Downs). Both were

part of the East Kingdom. Someone (or more than one) in the Georgia

group wrote the board expressing a preference for being in Atenveldt.

The Board did not consult the King of the East. The board did not ask

for the opinions of other people in the area. The board did not

inform the King of the East that it was considering transfering a

large part of his kingdom to Atenveldt. The board did not even inform

the King of the East after the transfer that it had occurred. The

King of the East first discovered that a sizable chunk of his kingdom

had been given to Atenveldt as a result of a passing mention in a

letter from a Society official some months later! The result was a

challenge by the then King of the East to the Board of Directors for

dishonorable behavior, which the board declined to accept, apparently

in the belief that as a mundane institution it had no obligation to

act honorably. I could probably dig a copy out of my files if I

looked long enough. The whole incident was one of the reasons,

although probably not the first, that many people in the East Kingdom

regarded the national organization with considerable distrust.

Incidentally, the area in question was not "what is now Meridies,

Ansteorra, and Trimaris." What is now the barony of Axemoor (New

Orleans) was transferred to Atenveldt from the Middle Kingdom, not

from the East, more than a year earlier. That transfer was done

properly--by the King of the Middle at the request of the people in

the area. Ansteorra was never a part of the East Kingdom; I do not

know when it became part of Antenveldt, but since it lies between the

original Aten lands and the area granted to Atenveldt by the Middle,

I assume it happened before the incidents Dorothea is describing. The

original East/West boundary, as I remember, was the Mississippi; the

East ceded its western lands and the West some of its Eastern to the

Middle when the Middle was created.

Cariadoc of the Bow, sometime King of the Middle, sometime King of

the East

From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu

Date: 1 Nov 91 04:05:13 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <9110311745.AA09239 at isi.com> kevin%rome.dnet at isi.COM (Kevin Davis Connery) writes:

>Fairly obviously, the sovereign of an existing nation [Queen Elizabeth, or

>Prince Ranier (sp?)] would have enough. What about some of the

>'lesser' nations, which may go through a dozen monarchs in as many years,

>with perhaps no more support than some of the SCA kingdoms have?

>Where does the game end, and reality start?

Way back when, in the days when Caid was still part of the West,

we had somebody who worked on the staff of the Western White House

(for you kids who don't go back that far, that was the Orange County

working-vacation place of then-President R. M. Nixon). Our staffer

always delivered invitations to every Caidan tourney to the social

secretary, who would always reply with a polite written regrets.

We never really expected that Nixon would come to a tourney. But

we were agreed that if he _did,_ he would be treated as a visiting

foreign dignitary and permitted to wear his quaint native costume

(suit, tie, etc.). But the Secret Service people he would have to

bring with him would have to wear garb.

dcm

From: assbc1 at acad2.alaska.edu

Date: 2 Nov 91 02:44:42 GMT

Organization: University of Alaska

>> Bland the Black writes:

>>>And if we truly wished to lay claim to a wee spot o land, I don't believe

>>>antarctica is taken ...

>> Speaking as a member of the group closest to Antarctica, we may have to

>> consider this an encroachment. :)

>> ...

>> -- Richard.

Speaking as a mamber of the west who was told y the BOD that this was NOT a

good idea,...

we had a memebr down at McMurdo base for a while and tried to claim it,...

Needless to say there are treaties that forbid doing this even in jest (or in

the SCA). the BOD said no,...

Tucken deMontfort, LordAshford

Keeper of the Ducal Sheep

From: assbc1 at acad2.alaska.edu

Date: 2 Nov 91 03:04:54 GMT

Organization: University of Alaska

Unto the member of the most noble and comunicative order of the Rialto,

Greeting from Tucken deMontfort, Lord Ashford,...

Several years ago when I was but a lad in the shire of Winter'sgate, in the

northern marches of the West, there was a man who worked, mundainely, for the local universtiy.

This man was a great scholar was much learning in the deapest and most occult

siences known to man or God (he had a PhD. in plasm Physics and SNOW FLAKE

STUDIES, no joke, we have a whole department up here that deals with snow

flakes, but I digress).

Once every year, when the winds would blow and winter would settle round our

lands he would travel, on a swift ship (coast gaurd cutter) to the southern

lands (Antarctica). He would weather there for the winter (counting flakes and

looking at the Aurora Australis) and then return to our happy shire.

When, by the grace of God and the might of the sword, we drove the invaders

from the south far from our land and settled our borders with Trolls of

Selvergard, we were granted the right to enoble our dear lady Morgana O'yrfa

and she was placed in her rightfull role as Baroness Winter'sgate. At this