tomatoes-msg – 2/8/08
The eating and cultivation of tomatoes in Europe.
NOTE: See also the files: vegetables-msg, Tomatoes-art, tomato-hist-art, pasta-msg, peppers-msg, potatoes-msg, fruits-msg, p-herbals-msg, garlic-msg, seeds-msg.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:31:47 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - nightshades
> Does anyone have any period evidence for the "tomatoes and potatoes were
> not eaten because they were in the nightshade family" story? I suspect it
> is an urban legend, but don't actually know.
Tomatoes and potatoes were eaten in period in the New World. And there is
some evidence potatoes were eaten at the end of the SCA period. Since the
potato has been discussed in detail and that discussion is in Stefan's
Florilegium, I won't try to repeat it.
Columbus found the tomato being used as food and brought them back in 1493.
In 1583, the Portuguese introduced then into China and into Japan in 1543.
Apparently they were used as an ornamental plant rather than food.
Gerard's Herball describes the tomato and he comments on their taste, so
apparently, he tried one. (1597)
Doubts about eating the tomato first appear in The Gardener's Dictionary by
Philip Miller, Gardener to the Worshipful Company of Apothecaries at their
Botanick Garden in Chelsea. (1752)
In 1812, James Mease, a Tory who relocated to Nova Scotia at the end of the
Revolutionary War, published the first recipe for tomato ketchup, which he
had originally developed in NJ prior to 1782. He also commented on the
French use of tomatoes.
Apicius Redivivus; or, the Cook's Oracle (1816) has a version of Mease's
recipe.
In 1820, Michel Felice Corne, a Neapolitan painter, introduces the tomato to
Newport, R.I. In the same year, Robert Gibbon Johnson, president of the
Horticultural Society in Salem County, N.J. eats a raw tomato in front of
the Salem courthouse.
My opinions:
The tomato was available within the SCA period, but was not used as a food
at that time.
Since the potato and the tomato were not described as members of the
nightshade family until near the end of the SCA period, being a member of
the nightshade family is probably not the reason they were not eaten.
(Remember, the people who introduced them to Europe knew they could be eaten
safely. They were probably not eaten because there was a limited supply and
people did not particularly care for the taste.) The bad press about being
nightshades, probably comes later and is probably limited to various
localities with vocal proponents of the "deadly tomato".
If memory serves me, Jefferson was introduced to tomatoes in France while he
was the Ambassador and transplanted some plants to Monticello. The tale of
his eating the tomato is probably an urban legend created by someone
replacing R.G. Johnson with Thomas Jefferson when telling the tale of the
tomato eating.
Bear
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:03:30 +0000
From: Gilly <KatieMorag at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: SC - nightshades
It was written:
>> >The tomato was available within the SCA period, but was not used as a food
>> >at that time.
>>
>> Except that it was described, in period, as eaten in Italy fried.
>
>Interesting. Does it seem to be a localized, late period recipe like the
>German recipe for roast potatoes or do fried tomatoes seem to be widely
>prepared Italian fare?
One of my books quotes a late sixteenth-century English source as saying
that the Italians (or possibly the Spanish) made a sauce of tomatoes and
used it "as we do mustard."
Unfortunately, everything's still in disarray from the move, and I can't
even remember which book, let alone lay hands on it. More later....
Alasdair mac Iain
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:51:46 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: SC - RE: tomatoes, was Subing????
> 2. Do you have evidence for the use of tomatoes in Middle Eastern cooking
> before 1600?
>
> David/Cariadoc
Hello! There is this from Gerard (originally published 1597, I'm using the
1633 edition, p. 346) describing the 'Apples of Love' (Lycopersicum):
"In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and
boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment
to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt.
Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed
together for sauce to their meat, euen as we in these cold Countries doe
Mustard."
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th
Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing
Recipes"
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:37:35 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Subing????
At 2:09 PM -0400 5/29/98, Angie Malone wrote:
>>The only period reference to eating tomatoes I know of refers to Italy in
>>the sixteenth century. I don't know of any period 16th c. Islamic
>>cookbooks; there is a 15th c. one which (of course) does not mention
>>tomatoes.
>What is this period reference? I am curious since I've heard much about
>this tomato debate in many SCA circles, but never knew of any sources.
I think the modern reference is:
Longone, Jan, From the Kitchen, The American Magazine and Historical
Chronicle Vol. 3 No. 2 1987-88.
My comment in the Miscellany is:
"The first European reference to the tomato is apparently one in a book
published in Venice in 1544; it describes the tomato as having been brought
to Italy "in our time" and eaten in Italy "fried in oil and with salt and
pepper.""
Which I think was based on Longone.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:33:01 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Subing????
According to Waverly Root's Food, Gerard's Herball (1597, if I remember
correctly) described the preparation of tomatoes:
"In Spaine and those hot regions they used to eat the Apples prepared and
boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment
to the body, and the same naught and corrupt."
The plant was described by the naturalist Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544 under
the name "mala aurea" (golden apple), later revised to "mala insana"
(unhealthy apple).
In 1578, Henry Lyte reports on tomatoes being grown in England only in the
gardens of professional herbalists. John Parkinson over 75 years later
(1656) reports that tomatoes were still being grown in herbalists' gardens
as ornamentation and curiosities.
Bear
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:50:33 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Period Chili
<snip>
On a side note, the first tomatoes were what we now would call cherry
tomatoes. Interestingly white tomatoes may have been used as an ornamental
plant by the Elizabethans but since this info is from my 20+ plus year old
page of notes that mentions the USDA Ag. Yearbook as . the source of info,
exact reference will have to wait until and if I find the book.
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:00:33 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain at snet.net>
Subject: Re: SC - old world/new world foods
At 21:26 13-1-99 EST, Lady Giuglia Madelena Sarducci wrote:
>Tomatoes didn't make it to Italy until the very end of the 16th century
>(The Italian Pantry by Anna del Conte, 1990),
>so I'm not sure you would want to use them, although I guess you could.
Anybody have a copy of *Seven Centuries of English Cooking* (think that's
the correct title....) handy? I'm pretty sure that's the book I own
(packed away) in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that
the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard."
Laird Alasdair mac Iain of Elderslie
Dun an Leomhain Bhig
Canton of Dragon's Aerie [southeastern CT]
Barony Beyond the Mountain [northern & southeastern CT]
East Kingdom
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:38:35 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - old world/new world foods
> in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that
> the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard."
>
> Alasdair mac Iain
"In Spaine and those hot regions they use to eate the Apples prepared and
boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment
to the body, and the same naught and corrupt." -- Gerard's Herball
I suspect this excerpt is part of the quote to which you are referring. It
is the only one I remember about how tomatoes were eaten. IIRC, the date is
1596.
The first botanical description of the tomato is Italian, written by
Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544. He originally referred to tomatoes as "mala
aurea" or golden apple, but later used the term "mala insana" or unhealthy
apple.
Bear
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:13:33 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Tomatos as potherbs
margolh at nortelnetworks.com writes:
<< the tomato is related botanically to the deadly nightshade, which may
have something to do with this as well as its reputation. >>
Possibly but , IMO, relationship to nightshades most likely has nothing to
do with their reputation. Eggplant is also related to nightshade and it was
widely used throughout period and its roots, leaves and stems are just as
poisonous as any of the New World members of the family..
Ras
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:29:24 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Tomato Theories
mermayde at juno.com writes:
<< I theorize
that the earlier fruits of this plant actually WERE poisonous, perhaps
more so to some than to others. This might explain why some were able to
eat them, while the vast majority viewed them with suspicion and
considered them inedible. >>
It is certainly possible that any people not used to a new food item would be
particularly sensitive to it. In my own case, the first time I ate kiwi fruit,
the entire inside of my mouth was covered with timy little blisters within
minutes. This does not occur now.
While I agree that much has been done in tomato breeding, the original tomato
still grows wild in Mexico. It is like a large cherry tomato for lack of a
better term the fruits are produced more sparsely than modern varieties. While
beef steak type tomatoes have increased dramatically in the past one hundred
years there were and are giant sized heirloom tomatos that date from the
1700's that are not beefsteak types and are still available today. So I would
suspect that breeding was an on-going process. As early as the Elizabethan era
there was a white tomato although no size is mentioned which was most likely
used as an ornamental.
A good source of old varieties is the Seed Saver's Exchange. Pine Tree and not
a few other seed houses carry some heirloom types that date back several
hundred years. Bear Creek Nursery is a good source for old time fruit tree
varieties.
The fact that we have produced new varieties in recent years does not mean
that older and original varieties are not still available. It just takes a
little serching. :-)
Ras
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:16:44 -0500
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Feast Service
>> in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that
>> the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard."
>>
>> Alasdair mac Iain
>
>Well, looking through "Seven Hundred Years of English Cooking", I
>couldn't find the reference to tomatoes that you cite here. BUT, I did
>find something interesting in the chapter on the 18th Century about
<snip>
Hello! I found it:
"Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue. [tomato]
...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples
prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very
little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt.
Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper
mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as we in these cold
Countries doe Mustard." (From Gerard's Herbal, pp. 345-347.)
There's a similar quote for horseradish:
"...Horse Radish stamped with a little vineger put thereto, is
commonly vsed among the Germanes for sauce to eate fish with, and
such like meates, as we doe mustard; but this kinde of sauce doth
heate the stomacke better, and causeth better digestion than
mustard." (From Gerard's Herbal, pp. 240-242.)
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:05:02 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes
At 10:07 PM -0600 4/13/99, J. Steve Hamaker wrote:
>If tomatoes are highly used in the 15th century in southern Italy
>and grown wild in England, why can I not find recipes in England or
>France that use tomatoes?
>Much help appreciated!
Tomatoes are a new world vegetable, so not likely to be "highly used" in
the 15th century anywhere in Europe.
I believe there is a reference to eating tomatoes fried in Italy in the
16th c., in a piece by Jan Longone on the history of the tomato. That is
the earliest reference to tomatoes in Europe that I know of.
David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:15:26 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes
And it came to pass on 13 Apr 99,, that Peggy A. Stonnell wrote:
> It was being grown in Italy, and eaten, mostly around Naples, which came
> under Spanish rule in 1522, but mostly very simpley, sliced, sprinkled
> with olive oil, salt and pepper. There seem to be no reciepes using the
> tomatoe as it is today until the 1700's.
> Isobel fitz Gilbert
The 1599 _Arte de Cozina_, is a Spanish cookbook with some New
World foods and many Italian dishes, but it does not mention tomatoes
as far as I can tell.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:22:56 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes
>If tomatoes are highly used in the 15th century in southern Italy
>and grown wild in England, why can I not find recipes in England or
>France that use tomatoes?
>Much help appreciated!
>
>Jean
There is this about tomatoes in Gerard's Herball, 1633 edition, pages 345-347:
"Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue.
...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and
boiled with pepper, salt,
and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same
nought and corrupt.
Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed
together for sauce to their
meate, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard."
Mala AEthiopia. Apples of AEthiopia.
...they are vsed for a sauce and seruice vnto rich mens tables to be eaten,
being first boyled in the
broth of fat flesh with pepper and salt..."
(More culinary snippets from Gerard can be found at:
http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerardp1.html )
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th
Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing
Recipes"
http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:27:40 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes
I wonder why they were being called apples?
If the potato is any example, "pomme de terre" in French, it may just be
because it is round.
Vive la morte
vive la guerre
vive la pomme de terre
Daniel Raoul
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:40:50 -0500
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: Salsa (was Re: SC - Lemonade in Sent Sovi??)
Okay, maybe a recipe for tomato-based salsa isn't too outrageously OOP
after all....
I was looking at a text in the Virtual Cervantes library, a history of the
exploration of New Spain by Francisco Cervantes de Salazar. I don't
know when it was written, but Salazar died in 1575.
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/45201728150540421263
8516/index.htm
He says, in the chapter on plants of the New World:
"El agí sirve de especia en estas partes; es caliente, ayuda a la digestión
y a la cámara; es apetitoso, y de manera que los más guisados y salsas
se hacen con él; usan dél no menos los españoles que los indios. Hay
unos agíes colorados y otros amarillos; éstos son los maduros, porque
los que no lo son, están verdes, hay unos que queman más que otros.
Los tomates son mayores que agraces; tienen su sabor, aunque no tan
agrio; hay unos del tamaño que dixe, y otros grandes, mayores que
limas, amarillos y colorados; échanse en las salsas y potajes para
templar el calor del agí."
"The chile serves as spice in these regions; it is hot, aids the digestion,
and the evacuation of stool; it is appetizing, and in such a manner that
most of the stews and sauces are made with it; the Spaniards use it no
less than the Indians. There are some red chiles, and others which are
yellow; these are the mature ones, for those which are not [mature] are
green, there are some which burn more than the others. The tomatoes
are bigger than unripe grapes, they have their [same] flavor, although not
as sour; there are some which are the size I said, and others that are big,
larger than limes, yellow ones and red ones; they cast them in the sauces
and pottages to temper the heat of the chile."
He also talks about how they make tortillas out of corn, so maybe chips
are too farfetched, either.
But it's still not from Sent Sovi, nor is this evidence that they were eating
such things on the other side of the Atlantic.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:12:58 EST
From: Trierarch at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes
In a message dated 21-Nov-00 9:09:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, ddfr at best.com
writes:
<< As late as 1753, an English writer describes tomatoes as "a
fruit...eaten either stewed or raw by the Spaniards and Italians and
by the Jew families in England." But another writer, at about the
same time, asserts that the tomato is "now much used in England,"
especially for soups and sauces. >>
The common tomato is Native to Central America and Mexico. It was introduced
to native Americans who cultivated the fruit in the 18th Century. The unripe
fruit as well as the leaves and the stems of the plant contain a toxic
alkaloid and are indeed poisonous. Nevertheless, a variety of the tomato did
find its way into Italian cooking by the 16th Century: the Italians named it
'Pomodoro' meaning Golden Apple. The actually name 'tomato' is derived from
'tomalt' or 'Nahuatl' in the language of the Aztecs.
Fortin, Francois/Macmillan, Encylcopedie Visuelle des Aliments,
Quebec/Amerique International, pg. 66-67, 1996.
Donegal Arias Massalla, Califia
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:51:56 -0500
From: Gaylin <iasmin at home.com>
Subject: SC - Gerard/Johnson on Tomatoes
His Grace, Good Master Cariadoc asked concerning tomotoes:
> What, for example, does Gerard's Herbal say?
Nothing about them being poisonous.
Page 346, Book 2 is where it is mentioned in the 1633 edition
by Thomas Johnson. I haven't pieced the info on how to determine
which is Gerard's info and which is Johnson's, so (1) anyone who
can help, jump right in and (2) take it for what it's worth as
possibly OOP info from Johnson.
There's a lot of text on how the plant is cold in the coldest degree.
The entry mentions both red and yellow fruits at the very beginning.
In the virtues section, the very last part of the entry, it is mentioned
that they are eaten in Spain and "the hot regions" prepared boiled with
salt and pepper and oil or prepared with oil, vinegar, and pepper
mixed together as a sauce for meat in the same way as "these cold
Countries doe Mustard."
But nowhere does it say that the plant is poisonous in the entry,
only that it has little nourishment.
Iasmin de Cordoba
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 02:44:50 EST
From: Trierarch at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Poisonous Tomatoes?
<<Do we have any evidence that tomatoes were considered poisonous, and
if so when and where? I've seen lots of third hand assertions, but I
don't think I have seen any primary source evidence. What, for
example, does Gerard's Herbal say?>>
The following material makes a causal but specific reference to the toxicity
of tomato plants on page 66.
Fortin, Francois/Macmillan, Encylcopedie Visuelle des Aliments,
Quebec/Amerique International, pg. 66-67, 1996.
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:03:00 EST
From: Trierarch at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Poisonous Tomatoes?
ddfr at best.com writes:
<<
In any case, I don't think one can argue that something was
considered poisonous just because you can't find anyone saying that
it isn't. People in this thread seem to be accepting what is, so far,
an undocumented assertion as fact and arguing from it. It might be
true, but I would like some evidence. So far the only period
references--to 16th c. usage in Italy, and Gerard early in the 17th
century, provide no support at all for the idea that tomatoes were
considered poisonous. >>
I Agree. The situation regarding Historical reference to the Tomato
being poisonous appears to be difficult. Most references I have come across
all state "considered poisonous" probably due to its association with know
poisonous plants. One such reference follows (1). The Tomato does have some
poisonous properties with the primary poison being identified (in modern
times) as: So·la·nine (sl-nn, -nn) also so·la·nin (-nn). n. A bitter
poisonous alkaloid, C45H73NO15, derived from potato sprouts, tomatoes, and
nightshade and having narcotic properties formerly used to treat
epilepsy.[French from Latin slnum, nightshade, from sl, sun; see swel- in
Indo-European Roots.] I am very hopeful that someone will locate a
definite historical, hard reference to the known poisonous characteristic of
the Tomato.
1. "The tomato originated in the Andean region of South America, mainly
Ecuador and Peru, but its domestication took place in Mexico and Central
America. There may have been more than one centre of origin in the eastern
Andes (Ricke and Holle, 1990). It is suggested that Columbus returned with
tomatoes to Europe where they were first grown for ornamental purposes;
however, through the exploits of Drake, Raleigh and others and the long years
of buccaneering and piracy in the so-called Spanish Main, many Central and
South American plants including the Canna, Nasturtiums, Sunflowers, Tagetes,
Yucca, potato, tobacco and the tomato were cultivated in Europe during the
sixteenth century. The actual means by which they were introduced remain
uncertain. Initially they were grown in Europe as ornamental plants because
the fruit was considered poisonous as the tomato belongs to the plant family
Solonaceae and included in this family is the Deadly Nightshade. In fact the
tomato was named Mala Insana or the unwholesome fruit by Europeans. It was
also called the Love Apple. We should thank the Italians for first embracing
the tomato and introducing it into their culture."
Alberta Botanical Library: Tomato
Donegal Arias Massalla
R. N. Parker, PhD
U.S.J.D. S.D. CA
Stolen Antiquities Div.
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:01:01 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Poisonous Tomatoes?
I've been searching the web, and have found a few tidbits:
Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544 is supposed to provide the first European
reference to the tomato, and several people claim that he identified
the relationship to nightshade and said tomatoes were poisonous.
According to Longone (I think) the quote about eating tomatoes fried
in oil is also from 1544, which suggests that it is probably from the
same source.
Another webbed source says that Mattioli first described tomatoes as
"a kind of eggplant" and later as an "unhealthy apple."
A message in the florigium quotes an edition of Gerard's Herbal as saying:
"In Spaine and those hot regions they used to eat the Apples prepared
and boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little
nourishment to the body, and the same naught and corrupt."
So my current guess is that Mattioli:
a. Identified a relationship to nightshade (which eggplant is also related to)
b. Knew perfectly well that people were eating them and not dying
c. But for some reason concluded that they weren't good for you--just
as Platina asserted that some of the things he gave recipes for were
bad for you.
Out of that modern writers spun the "tomatoes were considered
poisonous because they were related to the deadly nightshade" story.
But that is only a guess. Perhaps someone with access to a good
library can find a copy of Mattioli's 1544 book and check what he
actually says.
- --
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 00:22:07 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Request for recipes
I don't have the issue available but
Rudolf Grewe did an article on early tomato
recipes in Spain and Italy. It was published
in The Journal of Gastronomy, 3 [Summer 1987]
pp.67-83.
See Andrew Smith's The Tomato in America for a
run down of the tomato prior to its appearance in
modern American cuisine.
Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:58:08 -0500
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Request for tomato recipes
>I seem to recall someone on this list mentioning a recipe (or rather, a
>description, fairly detailed) for tomato use in Spain, c. 1580's, in
>Gerard's Herbal. As I recall (and do _not_ trust my memory here), they
>were just kinda mashed up and slowly melted with olive oil, salt, and
>maybe a dash of vinegar.
>
>Adamantius
Tomato - Gerard's Herball, pages 345-347.
"Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue.
...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared andboiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishmentto thebodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Appleswith oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euenas wein these cold Countries doe Mustard."
Mala AEthiopia. Apples of AEthiopia.
...they are vsed for a sauce and seruice vnto rich mens tables to be eaten,
being first boyled in the broth of fat flesh with pepper and salt..."
Culinary Gleanings from Gerard's Herball can be found at
http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerardp1.html
Cindy
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tomato References
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:06:25 -0500
Tannahill covers the subject, but not very thoroughly. Toussaint-Samat has a little less information. Root covers the subject better in "Food" by at least referencing Pierandrea Mattioli (but not his "Commentaries on the Six Books of Dioscorides" (1544)).
IIRC, Leonard Fuch's Herbal of 1545 also contains a botanical
Description of the tomato.
The best known reference is a recipe in Gerard's Herball, " In Spaine and those hot regions they use to eate the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt and oyle; but they yeeld very little mourishment to the body, and the same naught and corrupt." Of course, Gerard was a staunch Protestant Englishman laying it on the Papists.
Probably, the Spanish introduced the tomato into Naples where it caught on, then spread north into Central Europe. French use of the tomato is primarily 18th Century and according to Brillat-Savarin, the tomato was a new arrival in Paris in the 19th Century.
Bear
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:34:14 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT - A little history
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
The quote is:
"In Spain and those hot Regions they use to eate the Apples prepared and
boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment to
the body, and the same naught and corrupt. Likewise, they doe eate the
Apples with oile, vinegre and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meat,
even as we in these cold countries doe Mustard."
One does need to keep in mind that Gerard was a loyal subject of Elizabeth
I, who couldn't resist taking a shot at the Popish Dons.
Castore Durante in his Herbario nuovo (1585), presumable comments, "They are
eaten the same way as eggplants, with pepper, salt and oil..."
Bear
>>>
I think Brandu is talking, when he says, "green parts", about the
leaves and stalks. Conversely, when Gerard talks about an area where
they're fried in oil with salt (and, possibly vinegar? I forget),
he's referring to Spain, and he goes onto say something like, "and
that is their sauce".
But I like fried green tomatoes, too, but being a UUY and all, I am
at a genetic disadvantage as to their preparation. However I'm quite
skilled at eating them.
Adamantius
<<<
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:53:12 -0400
From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT - A little history
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> What does appear clear, though, is that until the early 19th Century, when
> Jefferson "proved" their safety and made a big deal of feeding them to his
> ambassadorial guests, the Tomato did not appear as a common European
> foodstuff, even in Italy.
I can't speak for the SCA period, but I can for the 18th century.
The above quoted is a common story, but it is a myth. Tomatoes were
growing in Williamburg here in Virginia in the 18th Century. There are
a number of references to their presence here in various documents at
work. It is possible however that these were as ornamentals.
In England,Gervase Markham's THE ENGLISH HUSWIFE gives instructions for raising tomatoes in his section on kitchen gardens. (At least according to foodways historian Karen Hess). There are even receipts in some of the English cookbooks of the period though not in large amounts. They are still uncommon. One of these is South Carolina"s Harriott Pinkney Horry's receipt book that includes a receipt for preserving tomatoes.
There are by then quite a few references to tomato use in Spain
which Gerard states is common place in the 1590s.
--
Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:46:47 -0500
From: "Christine Seelye-King" <kingstaste at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Tomato was Pre-Columbian Foods
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
When Lady Temair did her research on the humoral theory, she found that the
'poisonous' appelation came from a botanist that was likening tomatoes to
other extreme plants such as garlic, which is also considered poisonous if
not prepared correctly, as in harmful to the balance of the body's humors.
We see the word 'poisonous' and automatically think toxic, but the word was
used in a different connotation when relating to various plants and
behaviours that affected general health practices.
Christianna
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:40:28 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] tomato sauce documentation
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> I have heard rumor that sometime in the late 1500 the Italians made a
> sauce from tomatoes by cooking the "poisonous" beasties for 3 days....
> Does anybody have docs on this. I can surely bet somebody somewhere
> is going to want to use tomato sauce
It's not tomato sauce, per se. It sounds more like stewed tomatoes and/
or bruchetta/salsa, and it's from Gerard's Herbal, 1597:
"In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and
boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little
nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they
doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for
sauce to their meate, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard."
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:12:28 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Tomatoes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Nothing in this statement provides that the strains are different. The 8
Turkish strains could be a subset of the 13 Peruvian ones. Simply counting
strains proves little. I'm much more interested in how they cross breed
with wild varieties and an analysis of the genetic differences. I will
point out C.M. Rick describes the cross breeding of wild and domestic
tomatoes in South America. I've not seen any information for this from
Turkey. Are any of the Turkish strains wild?
One might also check Taylor, I.B., 1991. Biosystematics of the tomato; in
Atherton and Rudich, The tomato crop; A scientific basis for improvement,
pp. 1-22.
The botanist Edgar Anderson believes that the Turks were early adopters of
the tomato and responsible for spreading it into the Levant and the Balkans
early in the 16th Century. The tomato is still a major crop in Turk and
there is quite a bit of tomato cultivation research in Turkish. With almost
500 years and the experimental agricultural background of the Turks, I'm a
little surprised that there are only 8 strains.
It should also be pointed out that tomato seeds are found in archeological
digs is South America. I have yet to see any cataloged in a Turkish (or
even Levantine) dig. If the tomato is truly indigenous to Turkey, then I
would expect to find evidence of prehistoric use. BTW, I have an interest
in seed counts and descriptions from digs. It helps me understand the
spread of baking in early cultures.
While I haven't read it, Grewe, Rudolf, The Arrival of the Tomato in Spain
and Italy: Early Recipes; The Journal of Gastronomy 3:67-81 (1988), might
prove enlightening to anyone interested in the early history of the tomato
in the Old World.
Bear
> My friend with the tomato problem just posted this to the Meridian
> Tavern Yard:
> "If you wish to explore this from a scientic point of view you will
> find that the decision to place S.A. as the source of the 'modern
> tomato' is based on the work of a Russian Scientist who held the
> view that the 'area with the greatest number of indiginous strains'
> of any plant is the most likely source. Peru won out with about 13
> varieties -- Turkey was second with about 8. This indicates several
> things:
> 1) strains of 'tomatoes' exist in Turkey that do not exist in Peru
> 2) the decision to grant Peru as the absolute 'source' is not
> scientifically 'proved'"
>
> Bear? Any comment?
>
> Pat Griffin
> Lady Anne du Bosc
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:53:10 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval and/or Middle Eastern Recipies
containingTomatoes
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I don't have the time to dig into this at the moment. I have another
medical appointment
this am and I have to leave for that.
There has always been this nagging bother that certain reference books
have listed that they had pomidoros (the tomato) in Italy in like the
12th century.
Sources like Theodora Fitzgibbon's The Foods of the Western World.
An Encyclopedia of Food from North America and Europe.
New York: Quadrangle/the New York Times Book Company, 1976 say this.
Some monks are credited with its introduction; I think Fitzgibbon said that
it came from China. I don't have this book out at the moment so perhaps
someone else can pull it off their shelf and repeat the entries. Of
course if one looks up the entry under tomoto, it says New World!
My best guess is that it was another plant with a name that came to be given
to the tomato later. We see this done with various of the beans and
pumpkins.
There are of course 16th century references in Gerald to the tomato
where it is said that they ate them in warm places like Spain.
Johnnae
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:22:03 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tomatoes was Re Pasta Experiment Update
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> Tomatoes were just being introduced in the last century
>> of our eras and only being written about in the last half
>> of the last century that we cover.
>
> I keep forgetting that tomatoes were treated with much the same
> attention as Nightshade and Hellebore. :)
>
> Thank you for reminding me.
This is an assumption that may be unwarranted. The fact that something is a
member of the Solanacea does not automatically relegate it to non-use in
period, as is proven by eggplant and tobacco.
The first mention is in Matthiolus around 1534 with a full discourse in
1544. IIRC, tomatoes also appear in Fuchs 1545. The use of the tomato in
the New World was well documented in the 16th and early 17th Centuries. In
reference to Europe, Castore Durante (1585) states, "They are eaten in the
same way as eggplants..." He wasn't fond of them, so they got panned.
Gerard gives a similar review.
A tomato and chili peppers appear in a painting from the School of
Caravaggio around 1607. A tomato, two eggplants and a type of pumpkin
appear in Murillo's The Angels Kitchen (1646).
Latini's Lo scalco alla moderna (1692) provides several recipes for
tomatoes, all labelled alla spagnuola, in the Spanish style. One of
them is for a dish combining tomato, eggplant, and pumpkin.
I suspect what you have with the tomato is similar to the problem with
maize. We know it was there. We know it was used. But we don't have
enough evidence to define the scope and speed of its spread and use.
Bear
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:16:18 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sun dried Tomatoes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Take a look at--
http://home.comcast.net/~iasmin/mkcc/MKCCfiles/
16thCITomatoReferences.html
for an article on what we found when investigating 16th Century Tomato
references-- And no sun dried was not mentioned...
Johnnae
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:55:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] More musings on nightshade and tomatoes
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
I've always wondered if the reason why the English herbalists disliked
tomatoes was because England has really bad tomato-growing conditions,
therefore the tomatoes they grew tasted like doo-doo. It rains a lot in
England, and tomatoes grow best (and taste best) in hotter, drier
climes. Drier, hotter conditions produce a tomato with concentrated
sweetness and intense flavor. Tomatoes thrive in lots of sun, and
produce lots of fruit in those conditions. Tomatoes and basil go well
together not only culinarily, but in gardens as well (growing basil
next to tomatoes helps protect them from whitefly and other insect
infestations).
A water-containing fruit would also be especially valued in the hot,
dry south of Italy and Sicily, where there has been a cultural
association between water=good luck=fertility (and the mal'occhio or
jettatura was attributed to drying out crops, cows, semen, and a
woman's ability to conceive). Plus, the volcanic soils of the region
would produce superior tomatoes.
That's just my theory as to why tomatoes took so long to catch on in
England, but were adopted earlier in the Meditteranean.
Gianotta
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:09:39 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] More musings on nightshade and tomatoes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I would recommend that people interested in the tomato read The Tomato in America by Andrew Smith as he goes into this tomato = poison story
in a very thorough fashion. With footnotes and bibliography.
It does cover the history of the tomato in Europe.
Johnnae
> --- rbbtslyr at comporium.net wrote:
>> Don't forget they are Nightshades and many assumed anything from that
>> family except for the roots would be deadly.
>
> However, with the Tomato, everything is deadly, including the roots,
> except the Tomato Fruit.
>
> Huette
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:11:49 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] meats pizziola
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Jul 8, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Samrah wrote:
> OK. About 6 months ago, someone on this list sent me documentation
> for a period recipe for stewed tomatoes. If memory serves, it was
> about 1500, Italian. ...On a more positive note, what did
> the late period Italians (or whomever, considering I don't believe
> Gerard was Italian) do with their stewed tomatoes?
>
> Samrah
Gerard, who was English, says the Spanish used it as a sauce for
meat, presumably in the way others might use mustard or some such.
But then, we don't know how factual even Gerard's account is.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:14:00 -0500
rom: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] meats pizziola
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> OK. About 6 months ago, someone on this list sent me documentation for a
> period recipe for stewed tomatoes. If memory serves, it was about 1500,
> Italian. ... What did the late period Italians (or
> whomever, considering I don't believe Gerard was Italian) do with their
> stewed tomatoes?
>
> Samrah
I'd really like to see this recipe and the supporting documentation, so if
you find it, please post.
A generally accepted date for tomatoes in Europe is 1527, coinciding with
the first returns from Cortez's conquest of th Aztecs. And the first
appearance of the tomato in print is in the 1544 Herbal of Petrus Andreas
Matthiolus, so I seriously question anything earlier. Castore Durante
mentions a method of preparation in his Herbal of 1584 as does Gerard
(1596). Joesp de Acosta comments on their use in sauces in the New World
in 1590. But the first actual recipe I know of appears in a cookbook from
1692/4.
Gerard's comment:
"Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue.
...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Appls prepared and
boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment
to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the
Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their
meate, euen as wein these cold Countries doe Mustard."
Durante's comments:
"They are eaten in the same way as eggplants, with pepper, salt and oil, but
give little and bad nourishment."
And for the 17th Century recipe:
Tomato sauce, Spanish style
"Take half a dozen tomatoes that are ripe, and put them to roast in the
embers, and when they are scorched, remove the skin diligently, and mince
them fine with a knife. Add onions, minced finely, to discretion; hot chili
peppers, also minced finely; and thyme in a small amount. After mixing
everything together, adjust it with a little salt, oil and vinegar. It is a
very tasty sauce, both for boiled dishes or anything else."
Antonio Latini, Lo scalco alla moderna, 1692/4
Thank Rudolf Grewe for this last one.
Bear
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:49:56 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] meats pizziola
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Greetings Bear,
>
> These first two look like recipes to me. So why is the first "recipe"
> dated as the late 17th century one? Last night we had the Apples with
> oil, vinegar, and pepper, mixed together for sauce to our meat. I threw in
> some onion and mushroom as well., but it seems pretty close to me. What am
> I missing? Is it because the first two comments are not from cookbooks?
>
> Many thanks for the information, and for all of your research.
>
> Aoghann
While the first two specify methods of preparation, neither is particularly
detailed and the question is raised as to whether they represent first hand
knowledge or hearsay. Also, there is no way of determining the social
context of the preparations or the extent of use. We can use the
descriptions to create recipes, but we have no idea as to the accuracy of
our recreations. Call them recipes, if you will but understand the
historical limitations.
The third item is a recipe being specifically for the preparation of the
dish in a text written specifically for stewards of noble households and by
such a steward. The sauce is specified as being of Spanish derivation and
it is obviously upwardly mobile socially. As a small aside, there are some
other recipes in the text using tomatoes and peppers and all are "in the
Spanish style."
Grewe was hoping that some 16th Century manuscript cookbook would give us a
real tomato sauce recipe, but AFAIK it hasn't been found and translated.
Bear
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:16:47 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tomatoes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> I am finding 1542 for the possability of tomates ending up in Spain
> shortly after Cortez conquests. Anyone find anything earlier.
> Da
What's the basis for 1542? Cortez returned to Spain from the conquest of
Mexico in 1528 and it is very probable that tomatoes returned with him. The
first European reference to tomatoes is in Mattioli's Herbal of 1544 (or
1542 or 1543, depending on source). Dodoens provided a further description
in 1554. The tomato appears in the painting The Angel's Kitchen (Murillo,
1646) which is the first thing that ties it to European cooking that I know
of. The first recipe appears in 1692/94.
Bear
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:30:08 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tomatoes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I tend to go with 1527 and the end of the Mexican Conquest or 1528 and
Cortez's return to Spain. Cortez, IIRC, burned his ships at Vera Cruz after
landing his men in Mexico in 1519. The earliest probable date for a tomato
in Europe would be 1521 (as Grewe suggests) after Cortez captured Panfilo
Narvaez and presumably gained control of the transports that delivered
Narvaez's men to Mexico.
The Cox article appears to be accurate and correct, but his arguments are
based on the genetics and the natural history of the tomato. He does not
look at the culinary history, so his arguments and comments about culinary
uses are open to question. Grewe's article deals more with the culinary
history.
The key question is not "When did tomatoes arrive in Europe?" but "When did
tomatoes come into common use in Spanish kitchens?" Arrival and use are two
seperate issues. Grewe suggests that they were a common foodstuff by
mid-17th Century. Considering Gerard, it may be possible to push that back
to 1596 or 1597. I tend to think that tomatoes may have been a taste
acquired by Conquistadors, that slowly became a common food in Spain and
spread at a slower rate than turkeys or maize. So your 1600 date is as good
as any for their general introduction into paella..
Bear
> Been doing research actually into Paella checking out recipes and led me
> to tomatoes, everything else is well documented. So my last question was
> tomatoes.
> The last I read was an article By Sam Cox , December 2000 ya I know
> a web address.
> http://lamar.colostate.edu/~samcox/Tomato.html
> I been looking around and basically I beginning to believe anywhere within
> 1492 -1600 has a chance of being correct. More likely towards 1600 rather
> then earlier . Basically I saying some where around 1600 give or
> take a few years.
> Da
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 07:14:04 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] *Sigh* That tomato thing - again
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Your oracle is probably basing their opinion on the quote from Gerard about
how tomatoes were prepared and eaten in Spain and Italy. It is of the "it
is reported to me" variety and was published in 1596 (IIRC). It may be
correct, but it doesn't demonstrate any wide-spread use.
From various texts, we know tomatoes were being eaten by natives (and very
probably Europeans) in the Spanish New World. They very likely entered
European cuisine during the 16th Century, but unlike maize, sweet potatoes,
white potatoes, and turkey, there is no definitive documentation. The
earliest European documentation is from Matthiolus's Herbal of 1544 and in
later editions, he referred to the tomato as Mala insana and spoke of its
unhealthy properties. I don't recall the tomato appearing in Fuch's Herbal
of 1554, but maize and chili peppers do with reference to how the maize was
being used in German cooking.
Castore Durante's Herbario nuovo (1585) provides "They are eaten the same
way as eggplants, with pepper, salt and oil, but give little and bad
nourishment." This does not provide any information about the extent of
use.
The first true European recipe for the tomato doesn't occur until the end of
the 17th Century:
Tomato sauce, Spanish style
Take half a dozen tomatoes that are ripe, and put them to roast in the
embers, and when they are scorched, remove the skin diligently, and mince
them fine with a knife. Add onions, minced finely, to discretion; hot chili
peppers, also minced finely; and thyme in a small amount. After mixing
everything together, adjust it with a little salt, oil and vinegar. It is a
very tasty sauce, both for boiled dishes or anything else.
Antonio Latini, Lo scalco alla moderna, 1692/4
While the tomato was eaten in Europe in the 16th Century, your oracle has
failed to determine the scope of the use and is assuming ubiquity when there
is only evidence to support limited use. We can make a far better case for
wide spread adoption of maize and turkey than we can for the tomato.
Bear
> Okay, so... someone on our local list made the famous "tomatoes are TOO
> period because they were eaten in Italy and Spain in the 16th century" and
> (of course) didn't back it up with cites. But because they are a respected
> source of clothing information, it is swinging the whole group over to think
> the durned things are 'just fine' for SCA *demos*!
>
> So since I don't pay any attention to tomatoes, I didn't save any
> information about them and their introduction to Europe. Does anyone have
> any quick & easy cites they'd be willing to share? I don't want to put
> anyone to any trouble but if you happen to have info easily to hand, I'd
> love to pass it on before we end up eating corn-on-the-cob at an
> educational demo...
>
> Hrothny
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:15:24 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] *Sigh* That tomato thing - again
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Andy Smith has actually done 3 books on tomatoes and ketchup and tomato soup.
The one with the early information on tomatoes in it
is indeed The Tomato in America.
Rudolf Grewe also did an article on early tomato
recipes in Spain and Italy. It was published
in The Journal of Gastronomy, 3 [Summer 1987] pp.67-83.
Johnnae
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:56:16 EDT
From: Sandragood at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Interpretation question was: Period? was Tomatoes
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
I'm really missing having direct access to the Gerard herbal..;o( I will be
so glad when I can get moved and can get my library back on bookshelves
instead of in boxes...
The Italian source that references the eating of them fried with salt and
pepper is the one I have been drawing from memory. I wasn't familiar with the
Gerard reference until it was mentioned in posts earlier when this string
started, but missed the text of his reference if it was posted.
Here's an interpretation question for you, because I love redacting and I
love hearing other points of views. From what I'm finding online, the quotes
from Gerard show two preparations. The first being boiled with salt, pepper,
and oil which seams to be simple enough. The second one, being "they doe eat
the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their
meat, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard", requires more
thought.
Would you take this to be a cooked down sauce (more toward a rustic
ketchup), or something similar to the chopped "stewed" tomatoes with vinegar as
mentioned, or something more along the lines of a fresh or pickled tomato salsa
served over the meat? I think it depends on where you put the focus. Do you
put it on the "mixed together..." or on the "as we do mustard..."?
If you place the focus on the "mixed together" it would appear to be a salsa
or "chopped stewed tomatoes". The second would probably be closer if you
focus on the fact that the two sources (Gerard and the Italian) both show
"apples" being eaten in a cooked form. Is there a source that states they were
eaten raw? That would add to the possibilities.
If you place the focus on the "as we do mustard" do you take this to mean
the consistency of the dish? Or, do you take it as a simple statement that they
used this preparation on meat as the English used mustard on their
meats?
Liz
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:13:27 -0700
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Interpretation question was: Period? was
Tomatoes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> The second one, being "they doe eat
> the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their
> meat, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard", requires
> more thought.
If they don't say anything about cooking, I won't assume it's supposed
to be cooked. It sounds like a nice relish to me.
Compare with today's Insalata Caprese, with olive oil and balsamic
vinegar, only without the cheese and basil.
Selene
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 23:20:41 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Interpretation question was: Period? was
Tomatoes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
The tomato was first described in extensive detail in Rembert Dodoens
Cruydeboek (1554). Gerard took most of his information from the Latin
translation of Dodoens (1574, IIRC, or possibly from a later Latin edition
in 1583). A more extensive quote of Gerard (I believe from the 1597 edition
of the Herball) is: "Apples of Love...goodly apples, chamfered, uneven and
bunched out in many places; of a bright shining red colour, and bignesse of
a goose egge or a large pippen...the whole Plant is of a ranke and stinking
savour. There hath happened into my hands another sort.the fruit hereof was
yellow of colour....Apples of Love grow in Spain, Italie, and such hot
Countries.In Spaine and those hot Regions they use to eat the Apples
prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little
nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt."
An edition of Gerard's Herball edited by Thomas Johnson and published in
1633 cotains the following, "Poma Amoris. Apples of Love....In Spaine and
those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with
pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie,
and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile,
vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as we in
these cold Countries doe Mustard."
Given the differences between the quotes, it is possible that the use of the
tomato in a meat sauce is early 17th Century rather than late 16th Century.
Since I haven't seen either edition in its entirety, I cannot be certain
this is the case.
I have recently found a quote from an unfinished herbal by Leonard Fuchs
(Vienna Codex, 1560) translated in Myers's The Great Herbal of Leonard
Fuchs, 1999, which is of interest. "Malus aurea: its color usually
resembles the color of gold. its fruit is not always of one color, but also
occurs in other colors. Three kinds of this apple.are known to us. The
first, either gold or saffron in color, and striped, is round and shaped
like the others. The French call it pomme d; amour. A second kind.is a
different color, for instance, red. A third, with size and shape like the
preceeding ones, but in color saffron, or a whitish yellow, differs even
more from the others, and has an oblong fruit."This may be the earliest
description of what has come to be known as the Roma type fruit. It seems
to be used solely as an ornamental as Fuchsobserves: "The whole plant,
indeed, gives off a heavy and quite disgusting odor. It should be
cultivated here in gardens and in "pleasure gardens'.
Bear
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 22:56:08 +0200 (CEST)
From: sera piom <serapiom74 at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tomato in Dodoens 1554
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> The tomato was first described in extensive detail in
> Rembert Dodoens Cruydeboek (1554).
I think it is here and on the following page:
http://caliban.mpiz-koeln.mpg.de/~stueber/dodoens_3/high/00464.html
Serafina
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