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fruits-msg - 9/9/09

 

Medieval fruits and fruit dishes. Recipes.

 

NOTE: See also the files: apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg. sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, melons-msg, nuts-msg, pomegranates-msg, cherries-msg, berries-msg, fruit-citrus-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.

 

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period fruits?

Date: 6 Dec 1993 21:30:37 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Mike Campbell <mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> wrote:

>Can anyone tell me what fruits were in "common" consumption in Western

>Europe during our period?

 

Apples, quinces, pears.

Plums of various kinds.

Medlars (which are in the quince family I believe; like persimmons

        they must be practically rotten before they are ripe).

Berries: blueberries (called "bilberries" or "whortleberries"),

        blackberries (called "brambles"), strawberries, and--so

        I'm told--cranberries, but I don't know if they're the

        same as the New World kind.

Grapes (seeded varieties).

In the south and around the Mediterranean: apricots, figs, dates,

        melons, peaches.

 

And probably more.

 

But no bananas or pineapple unless you get to Africa.

 

And I'm sorry -- no Kiwi fruit.  ;)

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period fruits?

Date: 7 Dec 1993 04:47:33 GMT

Organization: Cornell Law School

 

Mike Campbell <mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> asks about period fruit, and

Dorothea answers:

 

> Apples, quinces, pears.

> Plums of various kinds.

> Medlars (which are in the quince family I believe; like persimmons

>      they must be practically rotten before they are ripe).

> Berries: blueberries (called "bilberries" or "whortleberries"),

I believe the old world bilberry is a member of the same genus as the new

world blueberry, but smaller.

>      blackberries (called "brambles"), strawberries, and--so

>      I'm told--cranberries, but I don't know if they're the

>      same as the New World kind.

 

The current commercial cranberries are New World varieties, but both Old

World and New World varieties exist.

 

> Grapes (seeded varieties).

> In the south and around the Mediterranean: apricots, figs, dates,

>      melons, peaches.

 

Not only are apples period, some period varieties are still grown. In

particular, Rameau d'ete, aka Summer Rambo, is often available in the

Pennsic area about the time of Pennsic. The following list of period or

near period fruit varieties is from an article in _The Miscellany_ (also

T.I.).

 

Pre 1650 Fruits

 

             Apples                      

Calville Blanc D'Hiver (1627)             

Court Pendu Plat (16th century–possibly Roman)

Devonshire Quarendon (1690)     

Drap d'Or (=Coe's Golden Drop?)

Lady Apple (1628)

Old Nonpareil      

Pomme Royale

Reinette Franche   

Roxbury Russett (Early 17th century)  

Scarlet Crofton      

Sops of Wine    

Summer Rambo (16th century)

Winter Pearmain    

Fenouilette Gris   

Golden Reinette    

 

         Peach

Grosse Mignonne (1667)

 

       Nectarine

Early Violet (1659)

 

        Pears

Buerre Gris (1608)

Rousselet de Reims (1688)

Bartlett (Williams Bon Chretien)  Òof ancient originÓ–may or may not be

pre-1600.

 

       Plums

Green Gage (Reine Claude)

Prune d'Agen

 

Dates represent the earliest date at which there is evidence the variety

existed. For sources see the article.

--

David/Cariadoc

DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

 

 

From: Uduido at aol.com

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:13:38 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: SC - Vegetarian dishes

 

Vegetarian Recipe 1

From "A Trewe Boke of Cokery, Vol.1, Vegertarian Recipts", pg. 1 by Lord Ras

al Zib

 

FRESH DATES NOT IN SEASON

 

1 Lb Dates, dried

1 Lg Watermelon

 

Cut a hole in the top of the melon large enough for your hand to fit through.

Save the cut out piece. Leaving all the juices inside, squeeze and remove the

pulp from the watermelon. Put the dates inside the watermelon. Replace the

cut out piece. Leave in a cool place for 24 hours. Take out the dates and

drain. They will be as fresh as if just picked. (Editor's note (Lord Ras)>

Not quite! But still rather tasty. Dried apricots, figs, prunes and/or

raisons also work well with this technique although the original recipe

specifies dates.)

 

From "The Baghdad Cookery Book, 1226 c.e., compiled by Duke Coriadoc of the

Bow; redacted and adapted to the Current Middle Ages by Lord Ras al Zib.

 

Lord Ras

 

 

From: "Maureen S. O'Brien" <mobrien at dnaco.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Haggis (was: tartan something...

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:06:48 -0700

 

ctas_dan at ACM.ORG wrote:

>You would have to be a very rich lord to afford vegetables let alone

>fruit in winter.

 

Very true.  In fact, the word for fruits and vegetables in Irish

translates as "summer food".  Granted, root vegetables store well

and so do apples, but how long would they hold out?  The Irish diet

in the Middle Ages was mainly meat, dairy and bread, with a few eggs and

such thrown in; the Scottish diet would no doubt be similar, even for

the rich.

 

Maureen, who likes all organ meat except liver from non-fowls, and was

raised to try weird things and clean her plate.

 

 

From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:27:43 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: Re: SC - An Introduction and a question.

 

The domestroi mentions various ways fruits are preserved/cooked.

 

It mentions that Jellies may be given to the servents on sundays. (51)

 

preserve apples, pears, cherries, and berries in brine (63)

 

(66)it talks also of watermelons, melons, Kuzmin apples (seeming to be the

origin of candied apples, pour honey  syrup over whole apples),

quinces and appls (fermented in a bucket with honey syrup), Mozhaisk

cream (not mashed. soak apples and pears in a blended syrup, without

water. (not sure what they mean))

 

berry candy (66)(bilberries, rasberries, currants, strawberries,

cranberries, "or any other kind of berry". here is a quick rundown of

the instructions:

        Boil and strain through a fine sieve add honey and then steam

        the mixture till VERY thick, stiring so as not to burn. pour

        onto a board. smear the board repeatedly with honey. as

        mixture sets, add a second and third layer and twirl it around

        a tube. dry it opposite the stove.

my quick interpretation:

        cook the berries (use minimal water, or reserve the juice for

        mead/drinking later) Puree them and strain to remove

        seeds.(opt) add honey to your taste.  simmer on very low heat

        till thick. then pour onto a honeyed marble pastry board.

        let dry a bit (perhaps in oven, not sure if this is good for

        marble) then add a second and third layer, letting set up some

        between layers. dry in oven on lowest setting. cut as is or

        roll it and then cut it. die of sugar shock.

 

apple candy(66): about the same as berry candy, but it appears to be left

        "softer" (don't dry out in oven)

 

the parenthesized numbers are chapters, for the interested.

 

please note this was from a very quick browse through.... and typed

rather quickly as well...

 

BTW it also mentions that pears and apples may be preserved in syrup

or kvass. (45)

 

In Service to never letting the kvass thread die :)

Filip of the Marche

 

 

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:10:25 -0400

Subject: Re: SC - Roasted apples!

 

Jessica Tiffin wrote:

> I've just tracked down and devoured a copy of the Goodman of Paris

> (wonderful stuff).  He refers to "roasted apples" in many of his

> feast menus.  I'm assuming that this is a standard sort of baked

> apple - would anyone know precisely how they were cooked in period?

> i.e. cored and stuffed with nuts?  raisins?  sugar? in a syrup?  I

> can obviously play around with period ingredients, but I'd really

> like to look at a recipe.

 

I'd have to go back and look at Le Menagier (I hadn't remembered the

recurring theme of roasted apples), but various late and just-post

period beverage recipes call for the "pap of roasted apples" to be

included. The impression those recipes give is that they are roasted in

the ashes of the hearth like eggs, and that the method works best with

stored apples that have become just a bit starchy: they pop open when

they are done.

 

I'm working from memory here, so please take this for what it's worth...

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 17:42:28 GMT

Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast

 

While not as "Mediterranean" in style as Greece or Turkey, there are

an exceptional number of salads and fruit/veggie dishes listing in

"The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy. An offering to Lucy, Countess

of Bedford", by Giacomo Castelvetro. The original is in Italian and

written in 1614 (just a hair post period). I tend to have the greatest

interest in Late Renaissance Italian cuisine, so this and Platina are

my current bibles. ;-) The copy I have is put out by Viking Press,

with Introduction and Translation by Gillian Riley (c) 1989 and

Foreword by Jane Grigson. ISBN 0-670-82724X. I am not sure if this

book is even in print any longer, but Amazon.Com was able to come up

with a copy for me.

 

The listings are

by season and then, generally, by fruit/herb/veggie. Oh, and one of my

favorites is the listing under Sweet Fennel (it has a seed that tastes

like licorice): "Fennel Seeds are gathered in the autumn. We flavour

various dishes with them, and eat them on their own after meals." So

now I always have a little dish with Fennel Seeds to "sweeten the

breath" after a feast. It just seems like such a nice little touch.

 

Honos Servio,

Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra

(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)

zarlor at acm.org

 

 

Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:43:29 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: SC - Fruit and Wine dishes - was re: RECIPE CHALLENGE II

 

Baron Tibor wrote:

 

> Memory tickles at me about a stewed prune and red wine dessert with carway

> seeds, that is period and YUMMY.... I cannot remember the source offhand.

> (Perhaps the encylopedia that is Adamantius will... I gotta get my sources

> OUT of the attic and back IN the kitchen!)

>

> What other "wine and fruit" recipes are there?  This is a wonderful

> combination.

 

I can't recall the specific reference to the dish you describe above,

but I'd be willing to bet it's caraway confits as a garnish. Dishes of

figs stewed in wine I know about. Also a pottage of Bullace plums and

wine, which I can't seem to find anywhere but know exists in some source

or other. As usual, I was just looking at it the other day, and now that

I actually need it, it's gone...

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 08:04:45 -0400 (EDT)

From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: A couple questions . . ..

 

> 3) What about subsitutions?   I am in the midst of gathering recipes for a

> killer menu for Crown Tourney this next weekend,  and I was thinking about

> the "Strawberye" but using cherries and Kirschwasser instead ('coz I have

> cherries)

 

I can't speak for the Kirschwasser, but there are surviving recipes for

cherries.  In fact, the "Strawberye" recipe you're thinking of,

presumably the one from Harleian ms. 279, is followed IMMEDIATELY in the

manuscript by one for cherries.  So rather than adapting "Strawberye" to

cherries myself, I would use the 15th-century recipe whose author thought

it was similar enough to put them on the same page.

 

Strawberye: Take Strawberys, & waysshe hem in tyme of 3ere in gode red

wyne; [th]an strayne [th]orwe a clo[th]e, & do hem in a potte with gode

Almaunde mylke, a-lay it with Amyndoun o[th]er with [th]e flowre of Rys,

& make it chargeaunt and lat it boyle, and do [th]er-in Roysonys of

coraunce, Safroun, Pepir, Sugre grete plente, pouder Gyngere, Canel,

Galyngale; poynte it with Vynegre, & a lytil whyte grece put [th]er-to;

coloure it with Alkenade, & droppe it a-bowte, plante it with [th]e

graynys of Pome-garnad, & [th]an serue it forth.

 

Chyryoun: Take Chyryis, & pike out [th]e stonys, waysshe hem clene in

wyne, [th]an wryng hem [th]orw a clo[th]e, & do it on a potte, & do

[th]er-to whyte grece a quantyte, & a partye of Floure of Rys, & make it

chargeaunt; do [th]er-to hwyte Hony or Sugre, poynte it with Venegre;

A-force it with stronge pouder of Canelle & of Galyngale, & a-lye it

with a grete porcyoun of 3olkys of Eyroun; coloure it with Safroun or

Saunderys; & whan [th]ou seruyste in, plante it with Chyrioun, & serue

f[orth].

 

Notice the following differences:

1) the cherry recipe doesn't call for almond milk, currants, pepper, or

ginger; maybe the author and/or his patron felt that these flavors went

well with strawberries but not with cherries.

2) the cherry recipe, after being thickened with rice flour, is further

thickened with "a grete porcyoun" of eggyolks. I don't know why the

author chose to do this with cherries and not with strawberries, but

lacking evidence to the contrary, I'd follow his lead.

3) the strawberry recipe is colored purple with alkenade, while the

cherry recipe is colored yellow with saffron or red with sandalwood.

4) the strawberry recipe is garnished with pomegranate seeds, the cherry

recipe with whole cherries.

 

I would start by following the cherry recipe as closely as possible,

using a known-tasty redaction of "Strawberye" to get a first

approximation of the quantities.  If I had time (which you don't between

now and next weekend), I would experiment with each of the above

differences and try to figure out why they are there.

 

                                      mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

                                                 Stephen Bloch

                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu

 

 

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:38:32 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - jam (was: A bit bland...)

 

Bogdan asked about a topping for a late period almond tart; someone

suggested peach jam and Charles McCathieNevile answered:

 

>Peaches are appropriate for England. But I don't know how they

>prepared/preserved them. I would imagine that something like jam was

>done. Has anybody checked the florilegium?

>Charles

 

According to _Food and Drink in Britain_ by C. Anne Wilson (very

knowlegable and reliable), marmelade in the sense of a stiff paste seems to

have been invented late in our period and "Sometimes soft fruits were

simply bruised and boiled quickly in sugar syrup without any sieving or

straining, and the resultant sweet compressed mass became vulgarly known as

"jam".  The word did not reach the printed cookery books until 1718, but

thereafter both the name and the method of preparation became common..."

 

So it is not clear if anyone would have been making jam by the end of our

period (though the almond tart this discussion started with is late

period).  I think the reason jam got invented so late was that earlier

sugar was an expensive import, used in spice-type quantities only by

upper-class people; even for them, using it in the mass quantities

necessary for preserving fruit would not have been a practical option.  By

Elizabethan and Stuart times a lot more sugar was being imported, and it

was being used a lot more and moving down the social scale.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:16:30 EST

From: melc2newton at juno.com (Michael P Newton)

Subject: Re: SC - peaches

 

According to Teresa McLean, in _Medieval English Gardens_ quotes a list

of fruit trees grown: "The Tower of London were planted by the royal

grdener in 1275 with:

       '100 cherry trees, costing 1s.6d.,

        500 osier willows, costing 4s.6d.,

          4 quince trees, costing 2s.,

          2 peach trees, costing 1s.,

            gooseberry bushes, costing 3d.,

          a quart of lily bulbs, costing 1s.,

          another peach tree, costing 6d.,'

she goes on to mention that "they were as expensive as quinces, and much

harder to cultivate successfully in England. They appear quite frequently

in Literature from the thirteenth century on, usually classed with the

exotic fruits" Also, Godfrey's 15th C version of De Agricultura advised

sprinkling their peach trees with goat's milk in order to get

pomegranates from them (Take that for what it's worth!) and that King

John hastened his death by indulging in 'a surfiet of peaches and ale' It

seems that going by "Gardens", that they weren't everyday sort of fruit,

but rather a royal indulgence.

 

Lady Beatrix

 

 

Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:01:12 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Apricot recipes?(was Byzantine Cooking)

 

Since I have Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery in front of me, here

are some recipe's from it.

 

Bear

 

TO MAKE APRICOCK CAKES

 

Take Apricocks, pare them & cut them in halves. & put them into a pewter

flaggon, & set them in a pot of boyling water and let them boyle till

they are tender.  then poure a little of ye Juice from them, then crush

them thorough a clothe till you leave allmoste noething in ye cloth.

you must streyn them into a glass, in which you must weigh them.  & to a

pound of them, take a pound and a quater of double refined sugar, &

boyle ye sugar to a candey height.  then stir in your apricocks, & let

it stand on ye fire till it be ready to boyle.  then put it into dishes

of what thickness you will, & when it is cold, put it into a stove until

it is hard candied over, then turne them upon plates & let them stand 3

or 4 days before you cut them.  then cut them into what fashions you

please.  soe dry them up, and after box them.

 

Note:  A flaggon is a large bottle shaped vessel fo 2 quarts capacity

that may well be closed.  Pilgrims originally carried wine in such jugs.

 

TO CANDY GREEN APRICOCK CHIPS

 

Take your Apricocks and pare them and cut them into chips, and put them

into running water with A good handfull of green wheat, before it be

eared.  then boyle them a little, after take them from the fire, and put

them in a silver or earthen dish with a pritty quantety of good white

sugar finely beat[en].  then set them over the fire till they be dry,

and they will look clear and green.  then lay them on glas[ses and put]

them in a stove A while, & then box ym.

 

Note:  Green wheat, like any grass, stains whatever it touched with an

intense green; it was a common coloring matter.  As noted, it must not

have started to ear, and it is to be strained out once the color has

been leached out.

 

TO PRESERUE DAMSONS OTHER PLUMS OR APRICOCKS TO KEEP ALL Ye YEAR IN A

QUACKEING JELLY

 

<see marmalades-msg>

 

TO MAKE OF PLUMS PEARS OR APRICOCKS A PASTE Yt SHALL LOOK CLEAR AS AMBER

 

<see marmalades-msg>

 

TO MAKE A QUIDONY OF APRICOCKS OR PEAR PLUMS

 

<see marmalades-msg>

 

 

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:14:02 -0600

From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>

Subject: SC - preserved fruits

 

>Looking through several late-period cookbooks, I'm finding lots of recipes

>for preserving fruits, and have the following questions:

 

Congratulations on finding my mini-hobby within sca-cooking! I find fruits

and preserves are vastly under-represented at our feast tables (preserved

food in general is under-represented). Preserved fruits are not necessarliy

hard to make if you have a little cooking experience, and the flavor they

deliver is worth the trouble. All in all, I have never had a bad experience

when serving a preserved fruit at a feast table.

 

You will have to be a little creative when using these preserved fruits. I

have noticed that there are numerous recipes for preserving fruits, but few

(almost none) using preserved fruit in a recipe. In some cases it is OK to

use the preserved fruit as you would fresh fruit (the character of the dish

will change slightly), but in others it just won't work.

 

>- - I read or was told by someone (wish I could remember) that Pippins

>referred to a specific type of apple which is no longer available. Anyone

>know if this is true? If so, what is the best sort of apple to replace them

>with. What about Costers, another (earlier?) term for apples? Are they also

>a specific type, or a generic term?

 

Small, round, red and hard (not to mention hardy). Less sweet (see large

amounts of sugar added to them for preservation). As for substitutes, I'd go

for the bags of cooking macs, ida reds or some such, wich are smaller, have

better flavor than the enormous ones, and more closely mimic a period sized

apple. Stay away from those so-called delicious varieties. They aren't.

 

>- - Same for the terms "Pears" and "Wardens". Are Wardens a specific type of

>pear?

 

A warden is a very hard type of pear. Your firmer-type eating pears would do

fine here, but be warned that they do not cook quickly. I once had to resort

to pulverising in a food processor when making a recipe for apple moyse that

called for wardens.

 

>- - How about "Damsins" and "Plums"?

 

A Damson (Damsins) is a type of plum you may be able to find today.

 

>- - Rasberries, raspiss, respass, rasps (all terms found in a single book)?

 

Raspberries are larger now. Wild raspberries (which were frequently hedgerow

fruits in period) make a good substitute. These are all words for the same

fruit.

 

Aoife

 

 

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:24:03 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - currant sekanjabin (was rose sekanjabin/wa)

 

At 2:50 PM -0800 1/30/98, Crystal A. Isaac wrote:

 

>I've made the current sekanjabin two ways. One method is to get regular

>ole dried currants,...

 

>For better color and flavor, buy Hero brand Black currant syrup.

 

It is not clear from this whether Crystal realizes that she is talking

about two entirely different fruits. "Regular old dried currants," aka (in

period cookbooks) "raisins of Corinth," are a small raisin. Black currants

and red currants are a different fruit--the botanical name is "ribes." I

don't know which the period source she has referred to is talking

about--looking at it in the original might help. My dictionary believes the

ribes fruits got called currants because they looked like the other kind of

currants, and the name of the original currant derives from "Corinth."

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:45:35 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - currant sekanjabin (was rose sekanjabin/wa)

 

<< Black currants

and red currants are a different fruit--the botanical name is "ribes."  I

don't know which the period source she has referred to is talking

about--looking at it in the original might help.  My dictionary believes the

ribes fruits got called currants because they looked like the other kind of

currants, and the name of the original currant derives from "Corinth."

 

David/Cariadoc >>

 

This is correct so far as my research has lead me to believe.  Thankfully the

product sold in the market as "Dried Currants " is in fact the zante raisin

(e.g., raisins of Corinth). It still amazes me that this very universal period

ingredient is still sold commercially  and is relatively universally available

in the modern world. :-)

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:20:47 -0700

From: "Stevens" <gto at verdenet.com>

Subject: Re: SC - sultanas

 

sultanas are golden raisins  ninkip

 

 

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:33:03 -0600 (CST)

From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>

Subject: SC - The last recipe

 

Here it is, Crispy Pear and Apple Sandwhiches, Care of Alia Atlas

The original:

10. Ein spise von birn (A food of pears)

      Nim gebratene birn und sure epfele und hacke sie kleine. und tu dar

zu pfeffer und enis und ro eyer. znit zwo dnne schiben von dnne brote.

flle diz da zwischen niht vollen eines vingers dicke.

      mache ein dnnez blat von eyern und kere daz einez dor inne umm, und

backez mit butern in einer phannen biz daz ez rot werde und gibz hin.

 

      Take roasted pears and tart apples and chop them small. And add

thereto pepper and anise and raw eggs. Cut two thin slices from thin

bread. Fill this in between not too full, of a finger's thickness.

      Make a thin leaf of eggs and turn that therein about and bake it

with butter in a pan until it becomes red and give out.

 

Recipe 10: Crispy Pear and Apple French Toast Sandwiches

 

copyright 1994 Alia Atlas

 

Apple and Pear Filling:

 

      1 pears, skinned, cored and chopped very small

      2 apples, skinned, cored and chopped very small

      1/4 tsp anise seed, ground

      1/8 tsp pepper

      1 egg

 

Mix apples, pears, eggs, anise and pepper together. This is used to fill

the sandwiches.

 

French Toast Sandwiches:

 

      3 eggs or 1 egg and 4 egg whites

      8 slices bread

      1 Tbsp butter

 

Preheat oven to 400 F. Beat eggs. Butter a foil-lined baking sheet. Make 4

sandwiches with bread and filling. Dip sandwiches into the beaten egg

lightly. This should be done quickly, so that the sandwiches

will not be soggy. Then put the sandwiches onto the baking sheet. Bake for

30 minutes, or until golden brown, turning halfway through (after 15

minutes).

 

 

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:23:16 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Roman world - Apricots or Peaches

 

> The way my version of Apicius reads is that they had peaches in ancient Rome

> and not apricots (checked the latin recipe name with the dictionary -

> there's no mistranslation).

>

> Glenda Robinson

 

According to Trager's The Food Chronology, about 140 B.C. apricots and

peaches were brought out of China into the Near East. About 65 B.C., Pompey

introduced apricots, peaches and plums into the Roman orchards.

 

The source is a questionable, but it gives a starting point for finding

meatier information.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:37:38 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Rhubarb

 

And it came to pass on 25 May 98, that LrdRas wrote:

 

> So far as my research goes, it is pretty mush excepted that rhubarb

> was used as a medicinal plant. Outside of the personal experiences

> many of us have had with the medical benefits and the occasional

> mention of it in herbals, is there any basis in fact that rhubarb

> was used as a "food" plant during period?

 

In _Food and Drink in Britain_, it says that the variety of rhubarb

which was eaten as a fruit arrived in England from Italy in the 17th

century.  I do not know how early it was being grown/eaten in Italy.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:45:33 -0400

From: Nick Sasso <Njs at mccalla.com>

Subject: SC - Rhubarb as food reference

 

According to _Food in History_ (Tannahill, 1973), Rhubarb is of

Chinese origin.  It came west as a foodstuff via Arab and Rhadanite

Jew caravans (p.126).  She mentions it in a section describing the "new

walled city of Bhagdad" of the 8th century.

 

Not the world's greatest source, but a good suggestion.

 

niccolo

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:45:01 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Rhubarb as food reference

 

Just for fun, here is some etomology for the word rhubarb.

 

BTW, the handy quick ref says what we eat is Rheum rhubarbarum and that the

Asian varieties are Rheum officinale and R. palmatum and are used as

laxatives.

 

Bear

 

[Middle English rubarbe, from Old French, from Late Latin reubarbarum,

probably alteration (influenced by Greek rhon), of rhabarbarum : rha,

rhubarb (from Greek, perhaps from Rha, the Volga River) + Latin barbarum,

neuter of barbarus, barbarian, foreign. See BARBAROUS.]

Word History: The word rhubarb may contain two hidden references to its

origins. The first of these is in the rhu- part of the word, which can be

traced back to the Greek word rha, meaning "rhubarb." According to the Late

Latin historian Ammianus Marcellinus, rhubarb was named rha because it grew

near the river named Rha, which we know as the Volga. The -barb part of

rhubarb was actually added first to Late Latin rha, descended from Greek

rha, in the form rhabarbarum, barbarum being the neuter form of barbarus,

"foreign." Another Greek word for rhubarb, rhon, influenced the Late Latin

word rhabarbarum, giving us reubarbarum, which yielded Old French reubarbe.

The Old French form gave us Middle English rubarbe, first recorded in a work

written around 1390. In imitation of the way the Greek word rha is spelled,

an h was added, completing the long journey of this word into English from

the banks of the Volga in classical times.

 

 

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:38:33 EDT

From: THLRenata at aol.com

Subject: Re:  SC - a question

 

Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book has a wonderful jam recipe (page 128 for

those who own the book):

 

To Preserve Plums or Gooseberries

Take to every pound of plums a pound of sugar, then beat it smal, & put so

much water to it as  will wet, then boyle till it bee sugar againe, then put

in the plums, & let them boile very softlie, till they be doone, then when

they bee cold put them up, if they begin to grow then set them where fireis in

a cupboard; you may doe respis this way & gooseberries, but you must boyle

them verie soft , & not put the up till they bee cold, & likewise may Cherries

bee doone as your gooseberries & respis.

 

Hilary Spurling has redacted the recipe:

 

Moisten the sugar with as little water as possible, say a quarter to half a

pint per pound, put it in a large thick-bottomed pan, and stir it over the

gentlest possible heat without boiling until it is dissolved. "Boyle till it

bee sugar againe" means boil the syrup hard until it reaches what cooks of the

period call "candie height" (240 degrees F, 115 degrees C on a sugar

thermometer), when it will chrystalize if you beat it.

 

I (this is Renata again) have made this several times with a variety of fruit

and it's scary but it works. You end up with a pan full of hot rock candy,

then just dump your fruit in and let it sit over the lowest possible heat. The

juice from the fruit re-melts the sugar, and needs an occassional stir and/or

chipping sugar away from the sides of the pan.

 

By the time the sugar has totally remelted, the jam is ready to set (test this

by putting a drop on a cold plate and pushing it -- if it forms a skin that

wrinkles, it's ready to set) without ever boiling the fruit, which improves

the flavor.

 

The resulting jam is wonderful, and a hot water bath is not necessary, as the

high sugar content keeps the jam form spoiling.

 

If it works for respis (raspberries) it should work for mulberries. How lucky

you are that you have enough to consider jam. The house where I grew up had a

mulberry tree and we used to love the berries it produced. None ever lasted

long enough for jam, tho.

 

Renata

 

 

Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:48:59 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - almond milk

 

> Interesting.  This is the same method one uses in Brazil (that again)

> to get coconut milk that they cook with extensively. And the recipe

> calls specifically for thick milk (first squeezing) or thin milk

> (second squeezing).  I wonder when that practice started?  They

> certainly came in contact with coconuts fairly early, didn't they?

> Bear?

>

> Tyrca

 

From a quick check, coconuts are native to all the tropic regions of the

Pacific, and the point of origin has never been determined.

 

They make an appearance in Egypt about the 6th Century C.E., then make no

impact on the Mediterranean world until the end of the 17th century.  Marco

Polo mentions them as being cut open for food and drink, but makes no

mention of processing.  The references I have for processing coconuts date

commercial processing in the late 19th Century and don't mention the

techniques.

 

While the coconut was in South America early on, I think it is likely that

the coconut was introduced into Brazil by the Portuguese through trade with

the Spanish and the processing of coconut got started to compete with the

American coconut industry.

 

The quality of the answer suggests that further research needs to be

undertaken.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:13:40 -0500

From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)

Subject: Re: SC - Jellies vs. aspics

 

Genevia,

 

>> Would they have used the large amounts necessary to make jellies to do

this or would they have prepared them some other way for storage? <<

 

That's an interesting speculation.  We know they dried fruit, and used

the dried in tarts, with meat, in fritters...all sorts of ways.  A little

jam can go a long way and makes both a delicious and a pretty display.

In keeping with the humoral theory, that sugar was the perfect food, to

use some of the sweet jam would say very nice things to your guests, or

to your family and household.  Of course, the humoral theory seems to be

falling away just as preserves are really coming in.

 

Most of the nobles whose recipes we have had large estates, with orchards

full of fruit.  I don't think they'd find the use of enough fruit for

preserves to be out of keeping with good, economic use. After all, a

dried apple is one apple--how much jam or conserve would you get for

adding the water or juice, the sugar, and whatever else you use?  And

there's the fact that some of the conserves--barberry, bugloss flowers,

rosemary flowers, rose leaves--all and more in Martha Washington's Booke

of Cookery--would not be likely to be used in other ways. I think that

once we had access to sugar, and developed a thorough-going sweet-tooth,

the conserves, gellies, pastes, etc. were an established fact and the

cost was considered well worth it.  Other opinions?

Regards,

 

Allison

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:58:44 -0500

From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)

Subject: Re: SC - coconut milk

 

http://sunsite.unc.edu/wm/paint/auth/burgkmair/st-john.jpg

coconut trees?

 

The above URL takes you to a painting of St. John praying in a garden

under palm-type trees, and those certainly look like coconuts hanging on

them.  Much too large to be an artist's idea of date palms, or fig trees,

or something we know they knew about.  Take a look and see what you all

think.  If a German artist painted them in the Renaissance, they had to

be known, even if we don't find any recipes for them.

 

Allison

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:28:38 -0700 (PDT)

From: Vicki Strassburg <taltos at primenet.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Question

 

> Pear Butter? mmmmmmm.

>  . . .and the recipe is??? (impatient foot-tapping)

 

I'm not the poster, but I have an answer ... the same as the apple butter,

just switch the fruits. That's what I've done for years with whatever

fruit happens to be close to spoiling (unless it's bananas, then it's

bread). I've happened on some WONDERFUL things such as canteloupe butter

and pumpkin butter!

 

The way I was taught, "butters" are the basically fruit and sugar, cooked

down to a pasty consistency. Just when the sugar begins to carmelize, it's

done (that's what gives it the great rich brown color). Cold winter

mornings, warm fires, fresh bread, xxxx butter. Almost as good as warm

summer mornings, sunny porch, fresh bread and xxxx butter. :-)

 

~Maedb

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:56:31 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Apple Butter Update

 

> On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Decker, Terry D. wrote:

> > Since the chief difference between modern applesauce and modern apple butter

> > is the amount of sugar used, being heavy handed with the honey might get you

> > apple butter.

>

> I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes

> and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that?

>

> ~Maedb

 

The full quote dealt with Appulmoy, a period dish.  The recipe gives no

quantities, so it could be made with a little honey or a lot of honey.

Since honey can do something that looks a lot like carmelization, the recipe

might produce something similar to apple butter.  I don't know, I haven't

tried it, and I am not as experienced with this particular aspect of cooking

as some of the other people on the list.

 

In case you wish to test the recipe:

 

Appulmoy.  Take apples and seethe hem in water.  Drawe hem thurgh a stynnor.

Take almande mylke and hony and floer of rys, safron, and powdor-fort, and

salt, and seeth it stondyng.

 

- --Forme of Cury

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:45:34 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Update

 

taltos at primenet.com writes:

<< I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes

and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that? >>

 

Actually the act of ridding the apples of excess water and concentrating the

pectins creates apple butter along with the mingling of flavors from the

spices during the long slow cooking. I must disagree that apple butter is  the

same as apple sauce except for the sugar content. Apple butter can be made

(indeed, that is how I make mine) without any added sweetener.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:54:17 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Update

 

upsxdls at okway.okstate.edu wrote:

> I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes

> and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that?

>

> ~Maedb

>

>   When I make apple butter, I simmer the mashed apples until enough liquid is

>   cooked off to make the "butter."  Same technique as making tomato sauce or

>   paste from fresh tomatoes.  A very low flame should be used to keep the

>   sugar from carmelizing. If using honey, logic says a longer cooking time

>   would be necessary, because honey is more liquid than sugar.  I have not

>   tried sweetening with honey - yet! :) Leanna of Sparrowhaven

 

For what it's worth, apples brown whether you add sugar or not (and so

do pears and quiunces). The apples themselves are oxidizing, and it

shouldn't be caramelizing sugar that gives apple butter its

characteristic brown. There's nothing to prevent the addition of sugar,

of course, caramelized or otherwise, but all the apple butter I've ever

seen came from Lord Ras's neck of the woods, and is made with apples

cooked down in apple cider, sans added sugar.

 

The reason apple butter is sort of creamy/pasty, rather than jelly-like,

is that the chemical reaction that causes pectin to gell is not

happening. You'd be more likely to get a sort of brown apple jam if

sugar in the proportions for jellies and preserves were added.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:35:39 EDT

From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain)

Subject: SC - Re: Kitchener

 

from CariadocÕs Miscellany, Copyright © by David Friedman, 1988, 1990,

1992.

 

        Cuskynoles (English, 14th c.)

        Curye on Inglysch p. 52 (Diuersa Cibaria no. 45)

        A mete [th] at is icleped cuskynoles. Make a past tempred wi[th]

ayren, & so[th] [th] en nim peoren & applen, figes & reysins, alemaundes

& dates; bet am togedere & do god poudre of gode speces wi[th] innen. &

in leynten make [th] i past wi[th] milke of alemaundes. & rolle [th] i

past on a bord, & so[th] [th] en hew hit on moni perties, & vche an

pertie beo of [th] e leyn[th] e of a paume & an half & of [th] reovyngres

of brede. & smeor [th] y past al of one dole, & so[th] [th] en do [th] i

fassure wi[th] innen. Vchan kake is portiooun. & so[th] [th] en veld

togedere o[th] e zeolue manere, ase [th] eos fugurre is imad: & so[th]

[th] e boille in veir water, & so[th] [th] en rost on an greudil; &

so[th] [th] en adresse.

        Modernized English: A meat that is named cuskynoles. Make a paste

tempered with eggs, & so then take pears & apples, figs & raisins,

almonds & dates; beat them together & do good powder of good spices

within. & in Lent make thy paste with milk of almonds. & roll thy

paste on a board, & so then hew it in many parts, & each part be of the

length of a palm & a half & of three fingers of breadth. & smear thy

paste all on one half, & so then do thy filling within. Each cake is a

portion. & so then fold together of the same manner, as this figure is

made: [see above] & so then boil in fair water, & so then roast on a

griddle; & so then dress.

        Filling:

        one ripe pear (7 oz)

        one apple (Rome?) (7 oz)

        4 oz figs

        4 oz raisins

        4 oz whole, unblanched almonds

        4 oz pitted dates

        1 1/2 t cinnamon

        1 1/2 t nutmeg

        1 t cloves

        1/2 t ginger

        Wash and core apple and pear but do not peel. Cut figs into 2 or

3 pieces each. Use a food processor or mortar and pestle to reduce the

ingredients to a uniform mush.

        Pastry:

        1 1/2 c flour

        1/4 c water

        1 beaten egg

        Stir cold water into flour, stir in egg, stir and knead until

smooth. Roll out as two 12"x15" sheets. Cut each sheet into 10 6"x3"

pieces. Spread 1 T of filling on one piece and put another piece over it,

making a sandwich of dough, filling, dough. Using the back of a thick

knife, press the edges together to seal them, then press along the lines

shown in the figure, giving a 6"x3" "cake" made up of fifteen miniature

fruit filled ravioli, joined at their edges. Boil about 4 minutes, then

broil at a medium distance from the burner about 4 minutes a side,

watching to be sure they do not burn.

 

Korrin S. DaArdain

Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr

Kingdom of An Tir.

Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com

 

 

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:28:22 -0600 (MDT)

From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>

Subject: Re: SC - meat in mincemeat

 

On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Vicki Strassburg wrote:

> Good gentles, this brings up a question I have had ever since the year I

> bought 50 pounds of plums with which to make plum pudding. Then I looked

> at the recipe. I located a total of 9 recipes, ranging from modern to

> early 1900's. Not one of them contained plums. Did plum pudding *ever*

> have plums in it?

>

> Maedb

 

the term "plums" (as in sugarplums, for example) tends to mean dried fruit

in general - raisins, currants, prunes, etc.

 

elaina

 

 

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:22:34 -0000

From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>

Subject: Re: SC - Summertime Cerulean Blue Sauce

 

>Excellent quote.  Could you please provide the title of the work?  I don't

>recognize the author.

 

John Ayto, British, author of many reference works, mostly concerning the

origin of words and names, like The Dictionary of Word Origins, The Oxford

Dictionary of Slang, some translations from Middle English I believe, and

the work I«m quoting from, A Gourmet«s Guide, which is mostly concerned with

the origin and development of food terms. A valuable and entertaining work

in my opinion, and one I«ve made much use of. For some reason it was earlier

published as both The Diner«s Dictionary and The Glutton«s Glossary.

 

Nanna

 

 

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:21:52 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Dried Currants

 

> M'lord Ras,  I am a little confused here because I thought currants _were_

> dried.  How can one have dried currants then? :-)

>

> I wonder if the currants we use in recipes in Britain also Zante raisins?

>

> Also, where do sultanas fit into all of this?

>

> Elysant

 

Currants which are Zante raisins are always dried. Currants which are the

fruit of genus Ribes may be fresh or dried.  Cultivation of Ribes is limited

because they serve as a host for white-pine blister rust (Cronartium

ribicola).  Sultanas are a small yellow seedless raisin originating in Asia

Minor.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:33:33 EST

From: Tollhase1 at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC -found recipe apple orange tart

 

Went through my stuff.  The Recipe came from The Good Huswifes Handmaid for

Cookerie in her Kitchen (1588).  I originally found this recipe on the net.

The original redaction is by Gretchen Miler (Margaret

Macduibhshite)grm+ at andrew,cmu.edu

 

for a tarte of apples and orange pilles.  take your orenges and lay them in

water a day and a night, then seeth them in faire water and honey and let

seeth till they be soft;  then let them soak in the sirrop a day and a night:

Then take forth and cut them small and then make your tart and season your

apples with sugar, synamon and ginger and put  in a piece of buttar and lay a

course of apples and between the same course of apples a course of orenges and

so, course by course, and season your orenges as you seasoned your apples with

somewhat more sugar, and lay on the lid and put it in the oven and when it is

almost baked, take Rose water and sugar and boyle them together till it  be

somewhat thick, then take out the Tart. and take a feather and spread the

rose water and sugar on the lit and let it not burn.

 

I am paraphrasing her redaction below:

 

9"  pie crust with lid.

6 medium oranges.  I used Valencia oranges, through though temple oranges,

blood oranges, and Seville oranges should all work as well.  Both

Bitter(seville) and sweet oranges were available during the 16th c.  Don"t

use Navel oranges: the skins are too thick.

 

Four cups water

1 1/3 cup honey

14 small Macintosh apples.  Any small cooking apple should do.

1 cup sugar

1 tsp. cinnamon

1/2 tsp. ginger

2 Tbs. rosewater

1 Tbs. sugar

 

Soak oranges in water 24 hours.  Put honey and water used to soak oranges to

boil in a large sauce pan.  Simmer until skins are soft. When soft, place

oranges, Pour syrup over oranges and store for another 24 hours.  Add water

to completely cover oranges.

 

When ready to bake.  Preheat oven to F 350.  Slice oranges and remove the

seeds.  If the syrup has not completely saturated the rinds, boil the slices

in the syrup until saturated.  Chop the oranges into small pieces, and mix in

1/3 cup sugar, 1/2 tsp. cinnamon, and 1/4 tsp. ginger. Peel, core and quarter

apples, mix with remaining sugar, cinnamon and ginger. Place layer of apples

at bottom, then a layer or oranges.  Continue until full. Put on lid, bake

for one hour.

 

Apx 10 minutes prior to being done mix sugar and rosewater to make syrup and

put on 5 mins prior to finish baking.

 

Tollhase comments:

 

I found that this recipe worked quite well, Although I found that I did indeed

have to boil the oranges to get them saturated.  Perhaps as she suggested, the

skins were too thick.

 

For feast (making lots of these) I plan on altering the recipe slightly.  I

will use Marmalade instead of boiling the oranges and season them with honey.

I will cut up a couple of oranges per pie and mix with the marmalade.  I use

powder forte to taste.  That means probably a tablespoon or more.  I plan on

preassembling them and then vacuum sealing them.  Bake them on site.  Still

feel that the smell of fresh baking pies and bread always makes one hungry.

 

Lord Frederich Holstein der Tollhase.

 

 

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:51:06 EDT

From: THLRenata at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - query: Elizabethan jams

 

tyrca at yahoo.com writes:

<< One that caught my eye was a collection of "Elizabethan jellies" in

jars on one shelf.  They had (as I remember) Lemon Curd and Honey,

Orange Curd, Quince and Rose Petal, and some others that I can't think

of right now.  On the label, it gives a -very- brief pseudo-history of

the 16th century, and the item, such as (with quince) the Elizabethans

thought of the quince as the fruit Adam and Eve ate in the Garden of

Eden.

 

Now my question.  Has anyone tried these?  Are they truly Elizabethan?

Are these items that would be found on Elizabeth's table?>>

 

Lemon and Orange Curds are, unfortunately (because they are yummy!), a 19th

century invention. Quices and rose petals were made into jam in Elizabethan

times, but not IIRC together.  Fruits preserved in various textures in sugar

were very popular in Elizabethan times.  I have a couple of articles in the

Florilegium (did I spell it right?) on this very topic.  I think they're in

the Sweets section.

 

I've never tried the Cost Plus versions, 'cause my semi-local one only

carries the Curds, and I prefer to get my curds at Trader Joe's.

 

Renata

 

 

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:49:43 -0000

From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>

Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes

 

From: snowfire at mail.snet.net <snowfire at mail.snet.net>

>I'm wondering then, if they called so many things apples, if the word

>"apple" or it's equivalent in other languages originally had a broader

>meaning like "round edible thing that is probably a vegetable" or

>something?

 

You are correct there. Most southern European languages do not, or did not

originally at least, distinguish clearly between "apple" and "fruit". Melon

in ancient Greek meant both apple and fruit. The Latin word pomum (the

source of the French word "pomme") also could mean apple or fruit.

Pomegranate, for instance, literally means "apple with many seeds" and in

the Scandinavian languages it is still called grenate apple (granatepli in

Icelandic). The German name for an orange literally means "apple from China"

(Apfelsine) and this has been carried over into the Scandinavian languages

also.

 

And in Iceland, where no fruits grew and none were imported, either, any

fruit was liable to be called apple - it was probably the only fruit most

people had even heard of but few had ever seen.

 

Nanna

 

 

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:35:19 +0100

From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" <Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Apple breeds?

 

> From: HICKS, MELISSA [SMTP:HICKS_M at casa.gov.au]

> Some friends of mine have recently bought a property/farm in rural Victoria,

> Australia.  They sent the following request for information on "period"

> apple species.  Can anyone here supply further info or suggest some

> avenues of research for them?

>

> Meliora.

>

> > ----------

> > From:       Kim & Ian Stanley-Eyles[SMTP:heathen at tpg.com.au]

> > To:         Meliora & Drake

> >

> > In the furtherance of our rural & mediaeval activities, we are thinking

> > of planting some apple trees in the orchard from our period (or

> > thereabouts) and ask if you have any information on these.

> >

> > Autumn Permain syn Summer Permain late 1500's England

> > Court Pendu Plat syn Wise Apple plus others pre-1500 Europe

> > Devonshire Quarrenden pre-1678 England possibly from France

> > Fenouillet Gris syn Carraway Russet 1608 France

> > Golden Harvey syn Brandy Apple 1600's England (Herts.)

> > Gravenstein possibly Schleswig-Holstein pre-1667 possibly Italy

> > Issac Newton's Tree (original tree unknown) c.1660 England (Lincs.)

> > London Pippin syn Five Crown 1580 England

I have the perfect answer for you, AND it keeps it in the family ; ) My

father in law was the director for the Brogdale Trust ( a charity) , which

hold the UK gene banks for apples, pears, plums, cherries, vines etc etc

etc....

 

Gerry said he had something like 4500 different varieties of apple trees on

site. They can provide information, seminars, root stock - you name it. They

have a web site at http://www.brogdale.org.uk/  - they run a mail order

service etc. I don't know about the legalities of importing stock into

Australia, but I'm sure they can help. I recommend just browsing through

their mail order service .......

 

And as an aside - if any one is looking for an interesting plum to plant,

the "transparent gage" gets my vote for the most bizarre fruit (hopeless

for storage though ) - it forms this beautiful huge fruit which is

transparent - when the sun shines through you can see the stone in it etc,

and when you bite, it just bursts in your mouth with an explosion of

flavour.......have lots of wipes on hand :)

 

Karin

 

 

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:18:01 EDT

From: THLRenata at aol.com

Subject: SC - Elinor Fettiplace's Jam Recipe

 

Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book has a wonderful jam recipe (page 128 for

those who own the book):

 

To Preserve Plums or Gooseberries

Take to every pound of plums a pound of sugar, then beat it smal, & put so

much water to it as  will wet, then boyle till it bee sugar againe, then put

in the plums, & let them boile very softlie, till they be doone, then when

they bee cold put them up, if they begin to grow then set them where fireis

in a cupboard; you may doe respis this way & gooseberries, but you must boyle

them verie soft , & not put the up till they bee cold, & likewise may

Cherries bee doone as your gooseberries & respis.

 

Hilary Spurling has redacted the recipe:

 

Moisten the sugar with as little water as possible, say a quarter to half a

pint per pound, put it in a large thick-bottomed pan, and stir it over the

gentlest possible heat without boiling until it is dissolved. "Boyle till it

bee sugar againe" means boil the syrup hard until it reaches what cooks of

the period call "candie height" (240 degrees F, 115 degrees C on a sugar

thermometer), when it will chrystalize if you beat it.

 

I (this is Renata again) have made this several times with a variety of fruit

and it's scary but it works. You end up with a pan full of hot rock candy,

then just dump your fruit in and let it sit over the lowest possible heat.

The juice from the fruit re-melts the sugar, and needs an occassional stir

and/or chipping sugar away from the sides of the pan.

 

By the time the sugar has totally remelted, the jam is ready to set (test

this by putting a drop on a cold plate and pushing it -- if it forms a skin

that wrinkles, it's ready to set) without ever boiling the fruit, which

improves the flavor.

 

The resulting jam is wonderful, and a hot water bath is not necessary, as the

high sugar content keeps the jam from spoiling.

 

Renata

 

 

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:27:16 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Berries

 

> A friend here in Sweden wonders if rhubarb, gooseberries and raspberries

> are period - does anybody know?

>

> Lady Uta, Nordmark

 

Rhubarb (Rhuem rhubarbarum, et al.) was known in Antiquity.  The word

rhubarbe was first used in English about 1390.  There are several members of

the genus Rhuem hiding under the rhubarb name. Gooseberries (Ribes

uva-crispa) are European and have been used since the Neolithic.

Raspberries are both New and Old World.  The basic European stock is Rubus

ideaus.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:15:04 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Berries

 

> Bear wrote:

> >Rhubarb (Rhuem rhubarbarum, et al.) was known in Antiquity.  The word

> >rhubarbe was first used in English about 1390.

>

> But was it used as food? Every source I«ve consulted says the roots were

> valued for their medical uses, and the stalks maybe used for making rhubarb

> syrup, again for medical uses, but the stalks weren«t used as food until

> much later - not until about 1800 in England, even later in some other

> countries.

>

> Nanna

 

Gerard suggested that the leaves be eaten like spinach. However this is not

recommended as the leaves contain concentrated oxalic and can be lethal.  It

also bodes ill for finding any rhubarb recipes beyond those for purgative.

Of course this wasn't in the notes I was using with my reference library far

away.

 

According to Waverly Root, rhubarb may have been known in China as early as

2700 B.C.E. as a medicine, which would give a few thousand years to turn it

into food.  But he gives no references for Asiatic use as a foodstuff.

 

Root also suggests that rhubarb may have been eaten in the Middle East,

based on a 13th quote by Ibn el-Beithar that rhubarb was "very common in

Syria and Persia . . . like chard, it has fairly thick stalks."

Circuitously, Root points out that the plant Ibn el-Beithar commented upon

is Rhuem ribes, the currant rhubarb (because it tastes like currants).

 

So, no Medieval rhubarb pie for Europe.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:01:21 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Medlars and Sorb Apples

 

sheltons at conterra.com writes:

<< Can anyone who isn't horticulturally impaired explain what these are and whether they're still used today? >>

 

Sorb apples apparently are a variety that may have been grown by the Wends, a

Slavic people that inhabited East Germany, but I have been unable to verify

this info. Given the word is most likely a basis for sorb, I would venture to

guess that it also is a type of crab apple.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:06:06 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Medlars and Sorb Apples

 

Sorbs are the fruit of several different trees of the genus Sorbus in the

rose family.  S. domestica and S. torminalis are commonly referred to a

service trees and have brown fruit.  S. aucuparia is a rowan and has

orange-red berries.  I think the sorb apple may be the fruit of the service

tree.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 14:34:35 -0500

From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Pickled Cherries are Russian?

 

Bonne of Traquair wrote:

>earlier this summer I posted re: my experience making pickled cherries and

>making a drink syrup with the leftover pickled vinegar.  Someone stated that

>the pickled cherries were a traditional dish in Russia. I'd like more

>information on that if the person is still around, or if anyone else has

>heard this.

 

That would have been me!  I know that cherries were preserved in syrups and

in kvas in period, but I'm still looking for a vinegar-type preserving

technique.

 

From the _Domostroi_ (period sections only):

 

p152 Cherries in syrup

 

p154 Preserve pears and apples in syrup and in kvas, berry or cranberry

juice.  General admonishment to preserve fruit--fallen apples, cucumbers,

melons, and the like. (This could include cherries)

 

p155 "...put nutmeg in one little bag, cloves in a second, beneficial herbs

in a third...warm these on the stove and mix them with the mead...mix

cherry juice with warmed wine and put it in a jug, combine raspberry juice

and wine in a second jug, and add wine to prepared syrup in a third.

(okay, this only involves cherry juice.)

 

p176 Preserve apples, pears, cherries and berries in brine (either a salt

or a sugar solution, Pouncy says it was probably a honey and water sol'n, I

guess because of the previous mention of cherries in syrup)

 

So I haven't found anything yet with cherries in a vinegar-pickling

solution, just sweet brine or syrup and possibly a salt brine.  But as the

previous poster said, pickled cherries _are_ a _traditional_  food.

 

Yana (Ilyana Barsova)  jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu

 

 

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 21:01:23 GMT

From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>

Subject: SC - Re: fruit vinegar drinks

 

Aoife said:

>My brother has some documentation that is colonial in nature. let me

>contact him and see if he has something earlier. He got interested from my

>experiments, and it's snowballed. Truth is, I've been doing this so long

>that I've forgotten my sources. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

I just found this last night, it's just a mention, not a recipe.  Does

anyone know if there a facsimile of the Fettiplace book?

 

"Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book - Elizabethan Country House Cooking",

Hilary Spurling, pg 209

"Lady Fettiplace made a liquor from equal parts white wine and white wine

vinegar, boiled together with sugar, in which 'To keepe Barberries all the

yeare'."

 

Barberries are defined on page 199:

"Barberries which, according toe Grieve's Herbal, are so sour even birds

draw the line at eating them, were often added to low-acid drab-coloured

fruits like pears or peeled quinces where a modern recipe would recommend

lemon or redcurrant juice.  ... They are a pretty fruit, tiny, drop-shaped,

coral-coloured, turning a clear ruby red when cooked; ..."

 

she goes on to say that the wild ones - Berberis vulgaris-have been almost

entirely eradicated in this century in England in an attempt to wipe out the

parasitic rust fungus, or wheat-mildew, to which it acts as host.  She

suggests that one plant a row of ornamental Berberis Wilsonae.

 

On page 208 she suggests that the American cranberry was liked by the

colonists because it reminded them of the highly prized barberry.

 

So, that places the general idea of sour berries pickled in a vinegar syrup

in England about 1600 and that's the closest I've come to the idea of

pickled fruit syrup as a drink concentrate.  How useful that is depends upon

your own opinions, but I know what I'm experimenting on when cranberries

show up in the stores.

 

>Oops, just remembered that the Miscellany (Cariadoc) has several under

>Sekanjubin, one of which it also states can be made from any sort of fruit.

 

I'll have to check that again, I must have missed it.  The Florilegium file

on jalabs has mention of these drinks, that's what started me off.  But

there's not even vague documentation.

 

I did place my cherry syrup and sekanjabin and for that matter, the pickled

cherries themselves out at the Pearl's review. My documentation was

basically a statement that I'd seen it mentioned but hadn't firmly pinned it

down, and I wrote down the Dara goldstein's statement from 'A Taste of

Russia' re: Peter the Great bringing the idea of pickled fruit back from

Holland.  One Pearl, actually made a comment on the paper that was left for

that purpose.  No criticism of the lack of documentation, just a comment

that the idea of drinking vinegar bothered him, but actually both tasted

pretty good.

 

The disappointing part is that the cherry syrup is all gone now. :-(

 

Bonne

 

 

Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:39:18 -0000

From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>

Subject: Re: SC - Are Kumquats period

 

Lorix wrote:

>Firstly, are they period and, if so, how would they have been used in period?

 

They came from China and seem to have been known in Europe in the late 17th

century; the name was then spelled camquit or cumquat (from Cantonese kam

kwat, golden orange). I«m not sure if they were actually brought to Europe

then or if they were only known from travelogues.

 

Nanna

 

 

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:58:35 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Are apricots period:  was Period Kinds of apples/Pears

 

Lorix wrote:

> I had thought that I had seen period recipes for apricots though :-)

 

You probably have. There are Apician recipes calling for them, as I

recall, and quite a few Elizabethan English preparations for them. I

wonder if perhaps they didn't travel well enough to end up in Northern

Europe in the Middle Ages, and so not in a lot of Middle English recipes...

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:44:55 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Are apricots period:  was Period Kinds of apples/Pears

 

At 6:58 AM -0400 10/28/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:

>Lorix wrote:

> > I had thought that I had seen period recipes for apricots though :-)

>

>You probably have. There are Apician recipes calling for them, as I

>recall, and quite a few Elizabethan English preparations for them.

 

And medieval Islamic recipes, of course. Mishmishiya, from

al-Baghdadi, is one we are fond of.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:37:13 -0400

From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears

 

I have a copy of a volume of two pamphlets, called the Fruit Variety

Register 1580-1600, by Stuart Peachey.  Vol 1 is Apples - Mulberry, Vol. 2

is Nectarins-Walnuts.

 

  Some varieties that I have seen for sale in current times that are listed

in this book are:

 

   Pippins. (there were many different kinds of Pippins--red, yellow and

green)

 

   Greenings

 

I think both of these can be used as cooking apples.  I know you are all

wondering where I saw these.  I have to admit it beats the daylights out of

me, since we spend the fall picking up large quantities of 'storables for

winter' in a bunch of different places.  I would imagine it was one of

those fruit stand sort of places that are currently selling large

quantities of apples, pumpkins, squash, and onions.  I would check with any

local orchards in your area, if there are any.

 

I did a search on the net for Greening apples and found out there is a page

dedicated the  the Rhode Island greening which was 'created in 1796'.

Here's the url for a better description:

http://www.food.epicurious.com/c_play/c04_victual/apples/rhodeisland.html

 

I also searched for pippin here's the description in which they are

described as an all purpose apple:

 

http://www.food.epicurious.com/c_play/c04_victual/apples/pippin.html

 

I forgot to look yesterday when we visited Och's Orchard in Warwick, NY (we

went there for Staymen Winesaps).

 

I have to admit I hardly ever buy apples in the supermarket.  The only ones

I ever buy in the supermarket are Braeburn apples, they are currently my

favorite eating apple, although the winesap was very crisp and slightly

sour which was really tasty.

 

As far as Pears go, Russets was the only modern Pear name that I remember.

 

Angeline

 

 

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:30:00 -0400

From: Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Pomegranate seed

 

Deacon C Swepston wrote:

<<<SNIP>>>  The fruit was wonderful fresh.  Much more sharp/tart than

> the store bought variety and these aren't red. They're more

> yellowish/orangish.

>                    Melusine

 

Mayhaps you have a bitter variety while the store sells a sweet

variety.  Platina (?) or someone refers to two or three types of

pomegranates, including sweet and sour varieties.  Could be worth

checking out; they'll have different uses I suspect.

 

niccolo difrancesco

 

 

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:54:13 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>

Subject: SC - LIIWEEK:  Fruits of Warm Climates

 

This reference work may or may not be of some use to those whose interests

lie in the southern half of Europe:

 

Reviewed in LIIWEEK:

"    Fruits of Warm Climates -

    http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/index.html

        This is the full text of a print title. Species are listed by

        common name under the botanical family name. Each

        entry includes description, illustration, origin and

        distribution, varieties, climate, soil, propagation, culture,

        pests, diseases, harvesting, life of plantation, storage,

        food uses, toxicity, other uses, and ornamental value. By

        Julia F. Morton, originally published in 1987."

 

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne at tulgey.browser.net

 

 

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:52:29 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - guava

 

The origin of the name guava is the word guayaba, which I think is either

Carib or Arawak, suggesting that the origin is further south than the

Bahamas.

 

While guavas are commercially grown in Florida and California, I don't

believe they are native to either area.

 

If the guava made an early debut, it is probably recorded by Gonzales

Fernando de Oviedo y Valdez in his Historia general y natural de las Indias,

Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano originally published in Toledo in 1526.

There is an early 20th Century Spanish edition of the book and there was

supposedly an English translation done in the mid 1980's.

 

Come to think of it, the guava may be mentioned in the Diario of Christopher

Columbus.  I'll have to check when I get home.

 

Bear

 

> Bear wrote in response to Olwen:

>

> >Guava is a tropical New World fruit found in the Caribbean  islands.  So, it

> >is possible that it may have been used sometime after October, 1492.

>

> Would it possibly be mentioned in the Lucayos cookbook from the

> Bahamas? I don't actually remember reading its name there, but

> I've not sat down and closely examined every page nor verified

> the veracity of the book itself. It might be worth a look, though.

>

> Iasmin

 

 

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:42:38 +0100

From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>

Subject: Re: SC - guava

 

<< If the guava made an early debut, it is probably recorded by Gonzales

Fernando de Oviedo y Valdez in his Historia general y natural de las

Indias, Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano originally published in

Toledo in 1526. >> (Bear)

 

Georg Friederici, in his "Amerikanistisches Wörterbuch", gives several

quotes from this and other works of Oviedo y Valdes ("la guayaba, es muy

linda fruta y apetitosa") and from various other early sources from 1520

onwards. According to Friederici, the origin is with the "Insel-Aruaks,

Insel- u. Festland-Karaiben, Tupis", then the Spaniards spread the fruit

and the word from there in other places (specified in some detail on p.

283).

 

Thomas

 

 

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:12:57 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - guava

 

The 1520 date would be coincident with the early exploratory voyages along

the Brazilian coast (Cabral in 1500 and Correa in 1509). The Arawaks

inhabited an area from the Guiana coast through the Greater Antilles while

the Tupis inhabit the Lower Amazon Basin.  If it was the Spanish who spread

the guava, it is more likely the fruit came from the Arawaks than the Tupis.

 

Bear

 

> and from various other early sources from 1520

> onwards. According to Friederici, the origin is with the "Insel-Aruaks,

> Insel- u. Festland-Karaiben, Tupis", then the Spaniards spread the fruit

> and the word from there in other places (specified in some detail on p.

> 283).

>

> Thomas

 

 

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:15:14 -0400

From: "Gaylin J. Walli" <gwalli at ptc.com>

Subject: Re: SC - guava and the Lucayos

 

>I'll try to check my copy of the Lucayos tonight after I return home and

>we can compare tomorrow.

 

Well, I checked through the cookbook and guava doesn't appear.

It occurs to be that no many people have even heard of this

book. I received a photocopy of the pages from my laurel

who didn't know anything about it other than someone had

sent her this copy.

 

According to the information on the photocopy, the book is

purportedly a 300-year-old manuscript brought along to the

Bahamas along with the earliest settlers. Many of the recipes

in the book are written in terms of things to preserve. The

photocopy has the early date of 1660 but it claims to be

much older. The Editor listed on the reprint is "Borden Clarke"

and the publisher, from what I can tell, is "Old Author Farms".

 

Anyone ever heard of it besides me? Can anyone confirm the

veracity of the book itself? It's got the etymological tone of

a near-period cookbook, to be certain, but I can't find any

history on the book at all, even online.

 

Iasmin de Cordoba, gwalli at ptc.com or iasmin at home.com

 

 

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:09:50 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - guava and the Lucayos

 

The name Lucayos is derived from the Spanish name for the Bahamas, Los

Cayos.

 

A quick web search turned up one hit in the Margaret P. Hess Pamphlet

Collection at the University of Calgary.  The collection listed; The Lucayos

cook book, Morrisburg, Ont., Old Authors Farm, 1959; 95 pgs.

 

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be any information readily available.

Does the pamphlet peovide any other clues?

 

Bear

 

> Anyone ever heard of it besides me? Can anyone confirm the

> veracity of the book itself? It's got the etymological tone of

> a near-period cookbook, to be certain, but I can't find any

> history on the book at all, even online.

>

> Iasmin

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:07:36 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - guava and the Lucayos

 

Christopher Columbus' Diary doesn't mention guava.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:28:27 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: SC - guava and the Lucayos

 

- --- TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> wrote:

> According to http://copac.ac.uk, the Bodleian Library has a copy of the

> Lucayos cookbook; see the Copac database for the short title etc.; but

> nothing you do not already know, I guess.

>

> Th.

 

Yes this book:

 

The Lucayos cook book : being an original manuscript  

... found in the Bahamas,  kept for 30 years to  

test-refine, from A.D. 1660 to 1690, by a noble  

family  of Elizabethan England ... containing some  

260 ancient and remarkable recipesand formulas for  

all manner of cookery ... . -- Nassau, Bahamas : Old  

AuthorsFarm, 1959.                                    

48 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.

 

is in the Bodlean.  It is also in:

 

Library of Congress

Univesity of Iowa Library

New York Public Library

Univ. of Florida Library

Univ. of California, Berkeley Library

Los Angeles City Public Library

Brown Univerity Library

 

It appears to be rather post-period.

 

Huette

 

 

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:26:26 -0400

From: harper at idt.net

Subject: SC - Baked apples

 

Sorry, I don't remember who asked for this.  Granado does have a

recipe for baked quinces, which can also be made with apples.  It's

inside a pastry crust, so maybe it's closer to an apple dumpling.  I

don't have time right now to translate it, but here's the gist:

half-roast the apple on a spit, wrapped in buttered paper. Core it,

fill the hole with cow's butter or marrow, sugar, cinnamon, and a

whole clove.  Put inside a pastry crust made of white flour, butter,

and egg yolks.  Bake and then serve hot or cold.  The recipe calls

this a tartlet (pastellito), and says to make the box (like the

Spanish equivalent of "coffin") just big enough for the apple, so it

might be more like an individidual pie than a wrapped dumpling.

 

Brighid, busy making peach pits to bring to EKU...

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

 

 

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:27:09 +1100

From: "Lee-Gwen Booth" <piglet006 at globalfreeway.com.au>

Subject: SC - Coconuts in Period

 

The question has been raised in this house about whether coconuts were used

in SCA period in Europe.  I have done some major searches on-line and have

come up with the following facts:

 

1) in 1280 the coconut is mentioned by Marco Polo who calls it an Indian

Nut;

2) It was first called a coconut by English explorers in 1555 because the

indentations on the base of the nut resembled monkey (coco meaning either

monkey or monkey face, I can't remember which.

 

Gwynydd

 

 

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:01:14 -0500

From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Coconuts in Period

 

The first "Western mention I know of the coconut was in 545 A.D. by Cosmos

Indicopleustes, an Egyptian monk who visited western India and Ceylon.  In

his Topographia Christians, he describes it as the "great nut of India."

Marco Polo in 1280 described it growing in Sumatra, and Madras and Malabar

in India, calling it nux indica, the Indian nut.  The first detailed Western

description of the coconut palm was provided by the Italian explorer

Lodovico di Varthema in his Itinerario in 1510, where he referred to it as

tenga.  The name cocos is believed to be derived from the Spanish word

"coco" meaning "monkey face."  This was derived by the Spanish and

Portuguese explorers imagining that the inner nut's three spots looked like

a monkey face.

 

I've seen pictures of 16th century footed goblets the bowl of which was a

polished coconut.  For further information on this and other nuts check out

"The Book of Edible Nuts" by Fredrick Rosengarten, Jr.  I have a signed

copy, it's a great book.

 

Daniel Raoul

 

 

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:53:28 -0600

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>

Subject: : SC - Coconuts in Period

 

Gwynydd asks:

>The question has been raised in this house about whether coconuts were used

>in SCA period in Europe.  I have done some major searches on-line and have

>come up with the following facts:

 

>1) in 1280 the coconut is mentioned by Marco Polo who calls it an Indian

>Nut;

>2) It was first called a coconut by English explorers in 1555 because the

>indentations on the base of the nut resembled monkey (coco meaning either

>monkey or monkey face, I can't remember which.

 

"Coco" in both Spanish and Portuguese  languages signifies a grinning

face.  Cocos nucifera (coconut) was first noted by the Portuguese in India

and was originally called "the Nut of India" by many early sources. The

Portuguese historian Oviedo Y Valdes (1478-1557) notes in La General y natural

historia de las Indias, the following:  'This frute was cauled Cocus for this

cause, that, when it is taken from the place where it cleaueth there are seen

two holes, and aboue them two other naturall holes, which altogether, doo

represent the gesture and fygure of the cattes called Mammone, that is,

munkeys, when they crye: which cyre the Indians caule 'coca'.'

 

From early Elizabethan times coconut shells were carved elaborately and

mounted in silver gilt frames as goblets and commemmorative pieces.  The

earlier ones on a trumpet base as flagons.   It seems doubtful however that

the coconut was in sufficient supply in period other than its use in oddity

pieces.  Culinary uses were not likely in Europe at this time.

 

Akim Yaroslavich

 

 

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:55:08 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: : SC - Coconuts in Period

 

Akim, this is interesting because, IIRC, Gonzales Fernandez de Oviedo y

Valdes is Spanish and the book quoted is "Historia general y natural de las

Indias, Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano," a text on the West Indies,

originally published in 1526.

 

If the quote is correct, then Oviedo is commenting on the Pacific coast,

because coconut palms occurred only on the west coast of South and Central

America at that time.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:36 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: : SC - Coconuts in Period

 

I see I might be misunderstood.  Coconuts in the New World occurred only on

the Pacific coast having been carried there by winds and currents and not

yet having been domesticated.

 

Bear

 

> If the quote is correct, then Oviedo is commenting on the Pacific coast,

> because coconut palms occurred only on the west coast of South and Central

> America at that time.

>

> Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:12:25 -0500

From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: Re: : SC - Coconuts in Period

 

Was written:

>Coconuts in the New World occurred only on

>the Pacific coast having been carried there by winds and currents and not

>yet having been domesticated.

 

Odd historical note regards Palm Beach, Florida.  Legend has it called so

because coconut palms grew there.  Legend says that a cargo vessel with

coconuts aboard sank off shore and the coconuts were washed ashore and grew.

This occurred in either the late 16th or 17th century if I remember

correctly what I read.  Coconuts were apparently available in Colonial

America by the way.

 

Rosengarten writes regards the coconuts origin that it clearly orginated in

the Pacific Ocean but that there are two theories; an Old World and a New

World one.  It is apparently clear, according to him, that it was well

established on the Pacific coast of Panama before the first Spanish

explorers got there.  Paleobotanical evidence of fossil coconuts from the

late Tertiary exists in New Zealand.  The strongest theory in his estimation

postulates a western Pacific or eastern  Indian Ocean origin with a gradual

east and west spread either naturally via ocean currents or by man.  Vasco

da Gama in 1498 found it in Mozambique in East Africa. According to

Rosegarten, "It is generally agreed that the coconut was not found in the

Atlantic Ocean basin until the Portuguese brought it there after 1500, when

they introduced the palm to West Africa and Brazil.  In the early sixteenth

century the Spanish carried it to the Caribbean."  He further states that it

was rapidly spread throughout the Caribbean and South America.

 

Daniel Raoul

 

 

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:54:31 -0800

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: SC - Fruit Query

 

Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia wrote:

>I was browsing through the Tacuinum Sanitatis last night and came across an

>entry of "jujubes", a small fruit (the picture shows 2 people knocking plum

>sized fruits off a tree). Is this a name for some other fruit? I've never

>heard of it before.

 

Etymology:

Middle English, jujube fruit, from Old French, from Medieval Latin

jujuba, from Latin zizyphum, from Greek zizuphon.

 

http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/jujube.html

http://www.vegweb.com/glossary/docs/80.shtml

The text on these two pages is similar but not identical - they have

different recipes, too.

 

http://www.eat-it.com/jujube.htm

 

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/j/jujube10.html

has the entry from Mrs. Grieve's Modern Herbal from earlier in the 20th century

 

Apparently there is also commercial jujube honey from New Zealand and

jujube wine from China.

 

I have seen the fresh fruit for sale in Asian food markets (around

here we cover from Southwest Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia, East

Asia, and the various Pacific Islands)

 

Anahita al-shazhiyya

 

 

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:19:17 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Fruit Query

 

The fruit is also called a Chinese date.  It's the fruit of an Old World

genus, Ziziphus, most commonly Z. jujuba.

 

Bear

 

> I was browsing through the Tacuinum Sanitatis last night and

> came across an

> entry of "jujubes", a small fruit (the picture shows 2 people

> knocking plum

> sized fruits off a tree). Is this a name for some other

> fruit? I've never

> heard of it before.

>

> Al Servizio Vostro, e del Sogno

> Lucrezia

 

 

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:35:02 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Fruit Query

 

Hersey's Jujubes?

 

I gather the fruit is pretty much like a regular date except that it can dry

on the tree.  You can make jujube candy by halving and seed the ripe fruit

then simmering it in a 50/50 mix of water and brown sugar for about 20

minutes and spreading it out to dry.  Not exactly a modern jujube though.

 

Bear

 

> I knew that jujubes are really a fruit, but I wonder if the original

> question about 'what else is it?' could be referring to those little

> fruit-flavored candies you get at the movies- the ones that stick in

> your teeth and you spend the film trying to suck them down from your

> molars?

>

> 'Lainie

 

 

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:06:32 -0800

From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com>

Subject: SC - Jujube Fruit

 

somhow I missed this thread until today.

I was very excited on our trip to Europe this fall to discover jujubes at

one of the upscale groceries in Paris.  of course I bought them :-> sadly I

had no period recipes with me to try them in, so we just ate them raw to

know what we were dealing with.  they're kind of like bland hyper-pectiny

apples.  they start out with a green apple like skin (though shaped like a

large date) and slowly turn brown to look more & more date like.  Next time

I'll try & cook them.  No I didn't try to bring any home - I was going to be

in Italy another 3 weeks & bringing back foods through customes is

problematic anyway.

 

wonderful to know that you can now order the tree here in the States!

 

Eden - any year now I'm gonna start that medieval garden...

 

 

Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:48:07 -0500

From: "Michael Newton" <melcnewt at netins.net>

Subject: SC - coring fruit

 

> Speaking of glop, I encountered a dish of pears in syrup made for a

competition recently. The original recipe does not call for cutting, coring, or peeling the pears at all (in fact, none of the pears in syrup type recipes I've seen call for coring the pear, which is odd). The redactor had cored, peeled and cut the pears into small pieces and cooked it for some time-- the amount of wine in her redaction was minimal. Someone else pointed out that this recipe is usually done with pears peeled, cored and sliced in half, then cooked quickly.

 

It occured to me that that is the way modern pears in syrup are served, and so we may be being overly influenced by 'tradition'. What do others think?

(The redaction was delicious but obviously somewhat similar to really chunky applesauce.)

> --

> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne at mail.browser.net

 

They may have not cored the pear at all; the Czech vet at work always eats

his apple/pear, core and all. I also remember reading in _Pinniccio_,(the

book not the Disney version) that Gepedo warns his "son" to eat all of the

pear, including the core, since he might not have anything else to eat. Was

this a common thought during the Medieval ages? I don't know. But it could

be why their recipes don't call for coring the fruit. A waste not, want not

attitude.

 

Beatrix of Tanet

 

 

From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>

To: <SCA-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:36:27 -0400

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fruit & nut resource

 

    I linked into this site - it's a good repository of info on fruits &

nuts. All mundane, but it gives an historical thumbnail of the species. Well

worth the look.

 

http://www.uga.edu/hortcrop/rieger/

 

    Sieggy

 

 

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:22:32 -0400

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fruit leather (was pesto)

 

On 6 Sep 2001, at 10:08, Jennifer Thompson wrote:

> Speaking of summer oversized harvests, has anyone had any luck making

> peach fruit leather? Puree fruit, add 1/4th as much sugar, let dry in

> slow oven, yes?

 

Granado's recipe for peach leather (Carne de Duraznos) calls for

one pound of sugar to two and a half pounds of peaches (two

pounds of peaches if they're not fully ripe.)

 

Comment at recent baronial meeting when I placed "peach flesh"

on the refreshment table:  "Cool!  Period rollups!"

 

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:59:18 +0200

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: Jessica Tiffin <melisant at iafrica.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gervase Markham's fruite paste

 

Gervase Markham has a recipe for something called "paste of Genoa" - as

follows:

To make paste of Genoa, you shall take Quinces after they have been

boyled soft, and beat them in a mortar with refined sugar, Cinamon and

Ginger finely searst, and Damask-Rose-water till it come to a stiff

paste; and rowl it forth, and print it, and so bake it in a stove; and

in this sort you may make paste of Pears, Apples, Wardens, Plums of all

kinds, Cherries, Barberries, or what other fruits you please.

 

Has anyone ever actually tried this?  I'm not sure if I should be actually

cooking the sugar/fruit paste in the oven, or drying it out like a fruit

leather.  Does anyone have a redacted recipe or any suggestions?

 

many thanks,

JdH

 

Lady Jehanne de Huguenin (Jessica Tiffin) * Drachenwald Kingdom Chronicler

Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town, South Africa

 

 

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:55:56 -0500

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] torta of melons

 

On 4 Apr 2002, at 9:59, Susan Fox-Davis wrote:

> Perhaps unripe plums?  A Google search does not turn up the word

> "aluaricoques" in any document except the Flori-Thingie, of course!  I

> would guess "Aluariquoques" to be APRICOTS, according to Websters

> Revised Unabridged Dictionary 1913.

> <http://www.bootlegbooks.com/Reference/Webster/data/75.html>;

 

Yes, apricots would be right.  "aluariquoques" == "alvariquoques" ==

"albaricoques".

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of archaic Spanish spelling.  The

"Arte de Cortar", which is a century and a half older than Granado,

is far worse.  "Figado" for "higado" (liver), and "rra=E7ilmente" for

"facilmente" (easily).

 

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

 

 

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:36:49 -0400 (EDT)

From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] "Uncommon fruits worthy of attention"

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Just got this in through ILL:

_Uncommon Fruits worthy of Attention: A gardener's Guide_, by Lee Reich.

(NY: Addison-Wesley, 1991.

 

The book includes descriptions, sketches, history, cultivation, and use

information for the following fruits: Pawpaw, gooseberry, Nanking cherry,

medlar, juneberry, maypop, kaki and American persimmons, raisin tree,

black currant, elaeagnus, actinidia, jujube, alpine and musk strawberries,

currants, red and white, mulberry, lowbush blueberry, Asian pear,

Jostabery, and cornelian cherry. Also included are info on pollination,

siting and planting, pruning, propagation, and mail order sources. Well

indexed.

 

This is fascinating. I want to go out and buy a whole bunch of trees

now...

 

-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika   jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

 

 

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:11:50 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "Uncommon fruits worthy of attention"

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Yes, it's quite good. I got mine through the Garden

Bookclub. However pricing those trees and finding sources

is something of a bother. Some of the nurseries listed

are no longer with us, so it takes more hunting.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 18:44:02 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: plums in plum pudding

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> Makes sense, but I wonder at what point "prune" came to mean "dried

> plum", when it used to mean, to English-speakers, a variety of plum

> that frequently comes to us imported in dried form.

>

> Adamantius

 

Prunes are several varieties of plums, and modernly, particular hybrids

developed for drying.

 

"Prunus" (or "prunum") is the Latin for plum, as well as being scientific

name for the genera of plums.  It appears in a number of forms in European

languages.  Plum appears to be a derivative of the Latin neuter plural,

"pruna," apparently entering English from Old Low German. Plum and

prune are interchangable until late in SCA period.

 

The dried fruit was originally referred to as "dried plums" or "drie prunis"

(from a 14th Century reference).  By the 15th or 16th Century, prune was

being used to refer to the dried fruit.

 

Curiously, prune was also used to refer to raisins in Victoria's day.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:49:44 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fruit varieties for cooking

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

It's also the question of regional varieties that grew better in a certain

valley or hillside. There weren't national markets and transportation

to ship local fruits halfway around the world at that point. As regards apples,

there were also varieties grown just for cider. The same goes for

pears and perry. There's an entire book entitled Pomona's Harvest.

An Illustrated Chronicle of Antiquarian Fruit Literature by H. Frederic

Janson which Timber Press put out in 1996 that examines the literature

associated with the culture of various fruits. The ideas about grafting and

different fruit varieties were in great demand during the Middle Ages and Renaissance and numerous books were written with regard to the best methods

and varieties for use.

 

Johnnae llyn Lewis

 

 

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:09:44 -0400

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] where do I buy an indulgence for SCA-Cooks

To: Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1 at suscom.net>,    Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> Share the recipe for the pears with cucumbers and figs please please,  

> please?

 

Ok, this recipe is from recipes section at the back of _Food and Drink

in Medieval Poland by Maria Dembinska & William Woys Weaver; Woys

Weaver, a modern ethnic food writer, wrote up the recipes section and

didn't actually include the sources for the experimentation that he and

Dembinska did to develop those recipes before she died.

 

He does say it "was mentioned in the records of the royal garrison at

Korczyn in 1389", and is "a conceit meant to imitate poached melon". If

you vary the recipe by including more honey and cooking a bit longer, it

makes a sweet dish which can be served with cream.

 

4 cups cucumbers, pared, seeded and diced (if you use pickling cukes the

taste is more piquant; long salad cukes give you a sweeter result)

1 cup dried figs, chopped

1 cup honey

1/8 tsp ground cloves

1/2 tsp ground cassia

4 cups under-ripe pears, peeled, cored & diced

1 tbsp rosewater

 

combine cukes, figs, honey and spices; cook over medium low heat,

covered, about 20 minutes. Add the pears and cook 5 minutes (he says) to

10 minutes (I say) and remove from heat-- the cukes and pears should

have a similar texture. Cool to room temp and add the rosewater (you

don't really notice the rosewater if you put it in, stir and then

refrigerate the compote overnight.

 

Can also be served hot (I say).

--

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

 

 

Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 14:05:16 -0500

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Any good Lamb recipes?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> it sounds great. Love Couscous too. I have heard of but never used  

> jujubee's.  I am assuming i would have to special order them.

>

>   -Muiriath

 

I managed to find them at an oriental grocery store.  You might try

"googling" them.  Just be careful that you don't get the candy.  These

are usually dried, about 3/4 the size of dates, kind of reddish brown in

color, and the ones I've gotten have stones in them.  So they're a pain

in the "well anyway" to get off of the stones. I'm planning to serve

this at an event I'm cooking in February.

 

Kiri

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:47:51 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for info on mulberries and murrey

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

On Jan 18, 2006, at 12:44 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

 

> I got this question this evening from a Florilegium reader.  I can

> remember mulberries being discussed here only a little bit and the

> only "murrey" which I remember discussing there was the Arabian

> condiment "murri" made from rotten/fermented barley.

>

> I'd be interested in seeing any comments anyone has on period use

> of mulberries or this murrey. Please remember though to copy her on

> any messages on this subject, as she is not on this list.

>

>>      I've got a quick question about something I came across in a

>> book called "Uncommon Fruits Worthy of Attention" (by Lee Reich).

>> In the section on mulberries, the author says that in medieval

>> times, mulberries were used to make something called "murrey",

>> which he described as a pudding or a sauce for meats.  When I

>> tried to look for a recipe for murrey (on the Internet), all I

>> could find was the description of murrey as a color in heraldry,

>> not as a food at all.

>>      Can you shed some light on this for me please?  Thanks so much.

>>

>> In service,

>> Lady Corinna Lionwynde

>> (mka Sylvia Shults)

>> pompeii100 at yahoo.com

 

  From MS D, ff. 86r-96v, a.k.a. "Ancient Cookery", a.k.a. Book II of

"Curye On Inglysche", 'Diuersa Servisa', c. 1381 CE:

 

"37    For to make murrey, tak mulbery & bray hem in a morter & wryng

hem (th)orh a clo(th), & do hem in a pot ouer (th)e fyre; & do (th)

ereto bred & wyte gresse, & let yt na3t boyle non ofter (th)an onys.

& do (th)ereto a god perty of sugur, & 3if yt be no3t ynowe colowrd

brey mulburus; & serue yt for(th)e."

 

[37. To make murrey, take mulberries and crush them in a mortar, and

wring them through a cloth [puree/strain them], and put them in a pot

over the fire. Add white bread [crumb portion, soaked as for

thickener] and white grease [probably rendered lard], and let it come

to a boil no more often than once. And add a good amount of sugar,

and if it is not colored enough crush more mulberries, and serve it

forth.]

 

There's a series of fairly similar, generic medieval English

pottages, all based on crushed fruit (raspberries, strawberries,

cherries, etc.), all, for the most part, named for the fruit in

question. I see these as more like a thick fruit soup than the

puddings people often interpret them as -- there's no instruction

here to make the dish "standing" or "chargeaunt", so I'm not sure why

so many people assume it's supposed to be so thick.

 

Specifically regarding murrey, there's more than one such recipe

available, including an earlier one which appears to contain no

mulberries, but which is thickened like the rest and colored with

saunders to resemble a berry dish. Some versions of these pottages

specify meat (either calling for it as an ingredient or mentioning in

passing that the dish is to be poured over meat), and some don't, but

it's conceivable that the ones that don't mention it could still be

considered sauces.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:45:30 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Neolithic fig agriculture and storage find

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

> So what is the advantage of growing a parthenocarpic plant, compared

> to the regular version? It sounds like they take more effort to raise

> than the regular version. Is it just the advantage of not having to

> deal with a seed?

>

> Stefan

 

You get more edible mass per fruit.  Just compare domesticated bananas with

the heavily seeded wild varieties.  Because parthenocarpy requires external

intervention to reproduce, it is often considered a sign of domestication.

In return for the effort, you get a greater yield.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 22:10:48 -0400

From: "Sam Wallace" <guillaumedep at bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Uses for fresh apricots???

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< I'm looking for recipes (period or not) that make use of fresh apricots.

 

--Maire >>>

 

I thought the shortcake recipes in Mrs. Lincoln's Boston Cook Book

(http://digital.lib.msu.edu/projects/cookbooks/) looked interesting. Also,

if you look in Rumpolt's work, you will find mention of candying apricot

kernels (http://clem.mscd.edu/%7Egrasse/GK_zucker1.htm). I looked this up

when I was doing a feast based in part on this work and found a couple of

modern recipes, but did not keep my notes on that topic.

 

Guillaume

 

 

Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:57:20 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com> wrote:

> Pomelos are introduced later too.

> Their skin tends to be more greenish.

> Like Bear, I would guess it's a Citron. I've seen both.

 

<<< I am 95% sure that there is a recipe involving pomelos in Granado

(1599).  I'll check when I get home.

--

Brighid ni Chiarain >>>

 

Pomelo is a 19th century English variant of the 17th Century Dutch

"pompelmoes" or "pompelmousse."   Granado may have a recipe with pomelos,

but you might want to double check original usage and translation in the

Spanish.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 23:32:09 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<snip>

 

<<< Pomelo is a 19th century English variant of the 17th Century Dutch

"pompelmoes" or "pompelmousse."   Granado may have a recipe with pomelos,

but you might want to double check original usage and translation in the

Spanish. >>>

 

</snip>

 

Not sure how relevant this is, but I believe that pompelmousse translates

into grapefruit, although I'm blitzing on whether it's from the French or

the German. Living in Canada, although having studied German in High

School in the US, gets my root words mixed up sometimes....

 

Ilsebet

-------

 

Pampelm?se is the German.  It translates to both grapefruit and shaddock

(pomelo).  The Dutch "pompelmoes" appears to derive directly from the Malay

"pumpulmas."  This suggests that general European knowledge of the fruit did

not occur until the trading ventures of the 17th Century, which would have

made for a rather fast migration from Asia to the Caribbean, as the fruit

appears to have arrived there in the late 17th Century.

 

The essential issue is that the various forms of the word and their usage

appear to be post-1600, which leaves the translation of any pre-1600

reference to pomelos or grapefruit open to question.

 

It is possible that grapefruit or pomelos were introduced into Spain either

by the Arabs or from Asia via Portugal and the spice trade prior to 1600.

If the translation is accurate, then derivation and contemporary usage

become critical in roughly determining what is being described and the

history of the fruit in Europe.  According to some sources, the fruit was

introduced to Spain by the Arabs.  I have yet to see a definitive argument

for that opinion.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 00:58:01 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

I dug out my copy of Granado (a modern transcription in Spanish), and

found I was mistaken.  The word is not "pomelos" but "toronjas".  I

can't find the magnifier for my micro-print edition of Covarrubias,

but I think "toronja" is a variety of citron. In any case, it is

*not* a pomelo.  I apologize for jumping in before I check my

information.

--

Brighid ni Chiarain

 

 

Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:22:57 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin at gmail.com>

 

> Pampelm?se is the German.

 

And pamplemousse the French. And it translates as grapefruit. But

don't know the origins of the word - it could be German, for all I

know.

_______________________________________________

 

The derivation appears to be Malay to Dutch then into French, German and

English.  The rise of the Dutch East India Company and the end of Spanish

rule in the Lowlands both occur (IIRC) in the first quarter of the 17th

Century during a period when Portugal was controlled by Spain, so linguistic

transfer between Spain, Portugal and the Lowlands is a bit unclear.

 

The Malay "pumpulmas" may be derived from another as yet undetermined Asian

language.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:55:47 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< I dug out my copy of Granado (a modern transcription in Spanish), and

found I was mistaken.  The word is not "pomelos" but "toronjas".  I

can't find the magnifier for my micro-print edition of Covarrubias,

but I think "toronja" is a variety of citron. In any case, it is

*not* a pomelo.  I apologize for jumping in before I check my

information.

--

Brighid ni Chiarain >>>

 

Please don't apologize.  The current meaning of "toronja" is grapefruit.

And modern Spanish appears to differentiate between toronjas and pomelos.

 

I took a quick look at a couple of Spanish sites discussing toronjas.  From

the little I was able to translate, toronjas originate in the Caribbean,

which means the word may have been transferred to the grapefruit after it

was hybridized from the pomelo.  The question is, what did the word mean in

1599?  The similarity of toronja to naranja suggests that the word is a

derivation from Arabic and if it was used to describe a grapefruit-like

citrus in 1599, then it may be evidence of the Arabic introduction of

pomelos into Spain.

 

The term grapefruit is a mid-19th Century American reference to a smaller

variant of the shaddock, which suggests that equating "toronjas" with

"grapefruit" is a relatively modern occurrence.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 23:59:55 -0500

From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand at acm.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Persimmons

To: janemerrilees at yahoo.com, Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

> I have been gifted with a half gallon of small, wild persimmons.

 

There are several varieties of persimmon. If they are shaped like a  

tomato, then then they may be the ama kaki variety. These are quite  

yummy. Once they stop looking green and are instead a nice orange,  

all you have to do is cut them up and eat them.

 

Basically, I am writing about persimmons that look like this:

 

http://seoson.s88.xrea.com/autumn/archives/antenna10.jpg

 

Solveig Throndardottir

 

 

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:41:18 -0800 (PST)

From: Jane Merrilees <janemerrilees at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Persimmons

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

--- On Mon, 11/24/08, Audrey Bergeron-Morin <audreybmorin at gmail.com> wrote:

<<< Once they

stop looking green and are instead a nice orange, all you have to do is cut

them up and eat them. >>>

 

Actually... they're better if you wait until you think they're way too

ripe, that is, all wrinkled and splotchy. THEN, they're really yummy!

.....................................................................

 

You are right on the mark! Wild persimmons look very different than the asian variety in the link. I don't know about the taste, have been afraid of being disappointed at $1 each so have never indulged. The problem is there are too many for a type II diabetic to eat fresh. I have a wonderful family persimmon pudding receipe,I'm going to try with splenda. (Better than nothing.) But what to do with the rest? I'm a displaced Hoosier and was raised on this wonderful dessert. I was taken to the persimmon festival several times as a child. Foodie heaven.

 

Elspeth of Myrge Laese

 

<the end>



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