gourds-msg – 12/15/14
gourds, pumpkins, squash. Which varieties were period. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: root-veg-msg, peppers-msg, vegetarian-msg, turnips-msg, rec-leeks-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg, vegetables-msg.
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From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:00:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
In a message dated 97-05-02 03:46:37 EDT, Linneah writes:
<<One more thing, I keep hearing about/reading about gourds. What are they? I
had been taught that the winter squash we eat are also New World.>>
The Luffa gourd (sponge) is an Old World plant and is extremely edible when
it is very young (less than 6 inches). I have used (and continue to use) this
gourd when when gourds are called for in a period recipe.
Both winter and summer squashes are New World according to all the references
I have read..
Lord Ras
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
>I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New
>World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in
>various recipes is.
>
>Clarissa
From the Miscellany:
Pumpkin, Squash, Gourd
It seems to be well established that at least three of the four cultivated
species of Cucurbita (C. pepo, C. moschata and C. maxima) existed in the
New World long before Columbus; the fourth (C. ficifolia) is "ordinarily
not thought of as a cultivated plant" (Whittaker), but apparently has been
cultivated in the past. Whitaker argues, on the evidence of the absence of
these species in the fifteenth century European herbals and their presence
in the sixteenth century ones, that they were introduced into Europe from
the New World. A variety of C. pepo similar to the squash now known as
"Small Sugar" is illustrated in an herbal of 1542. What appears to be a
field pumpkin is illustrated in 1560, with other varieties appearing in
later herbals during the century. Whitaker concludes that "none of the
cultivated species of Cucurbita were known to the botanists of the Western
world before 1492." If so, all varieties of pumpkins, squash, and vegetable
marrows are inappropriate before 1492; some were known in the sixteenth
century, but may or may not have been sufficiently common to be used in
feasts.
There is, however, a plant translated as "gourd" in both Italian and
Islamic cookbooks before 1492. The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti,
which is 14th century, shows a "Cucurbite" that looks exactly like a green
butternut squash-a fact of which Whitaker seems unaware when asserting the
absence of all varieties of Cucurbita from pre-sixteenth century sources.
It seems likely, however, that his conclusion was correct, and that what is
shown in the picture and used in the recipes is not C. pepo but Lagenaria
sicereia.
"The white-flowered gourd, Lagenaria sicereia," seems to "have been common
to both Old and New Worlds" (Whitaker). I am told that the Italian Edible
Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L.
Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). Simoons describes a
Lagenaria still used in modern Chinese cooking. We have obtained what we
think is the right gourd from a Chinese grocery store and used it in period
recipes with satisfactory results. The taste and texture are somewhat
similar to zucchini but less bitter. The Chinese, or perhaps Vietnamese,
name for one variety, which the grower assured us had white flowers, is
"opo."
David/Cariadoc
From: Lasairina at aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:43:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
> I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New
> World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in
> various recipes is.
>
> Clarissa
I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de
Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni
or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the
cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers...
Lassar Fhina
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:38:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Lagenaria
<< the Italian Edible
Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L.
Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). >>
This is the species that I referred to as the Luffa Gourd (sponge). J.L.
Hudson is an excellent source for exotic seeds from all over the world!
Highly recommended! Their catalog is a reference source that is invaluable to
any serious horticulturist/gardener. Luffa seeds are also carried by local
sores and all major seed companys including Burpee.
Lord Ras
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:15:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
>I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de
>Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni
>or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the
>cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers...
>
>Lassar Fhina
The Chinese gourds we found, which we think are Lagenaria sicereia (sp?),
which we think is the most likely candidate for the old world gourd, taste
not unlike zucchini. Zucchini, of course, is Cucurbita pepo, and New World.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:26:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Subject: Re: SC - Columbus menu II
From what I understand from the book and from what other people have
posted, the squash family... (zucchini, pumpkins, winter squash are new
world. The type that is old world is the gourd family which included
luffa, chinese squash (obo) and gourds. I've eaten young luffas and gourds
( before they harden). zucchini it seems (as well as some of the others)
were quickly accepted once they were introduced. They are within period
but are not from the Old World. It appears that the old world gourds fell
into disuse (maybe they do not taste as well, who can say) I don't you
would be inaccurate to substitute zucchini for any gourd in a recipe since
they started doing it within period.
Clare St. John
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:47:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Squash
<<
Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period
2) If so any recipes for them
Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy
>>
Well, technically, no. Squash as we think of them (Zucchini and yellow
squash, and winter types) are New World critters. But there are Old World
gourds that were eaten in the Middle East and Mediteranean in period and
zucchini makes a reasonable substitute for those. Look for recipes in Roman
food, Middle Eastern cookbooks like those in Cariadoc's collection, and later
period Italian recipes. The gourds have a firmer, less watery texture than
zucchini, so keep that in mind and adapt any recipes as needed. I've done
"gourds" at least a couple of times for feasts, but I don't think any of the
recipes can be imported to e-mail easily right now or I'd send them........
Ldy Diana
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Squash
<< Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period
2) If so any recipes for them
Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy >>
No squash is not European period. It is a New World introduction. "Gourds"
were used in period . The most probable candidate is the Luffa gourd which is
very tasty when eaten young. Another candidate might be cucumbers that have
been allowed to mature. This is also very edible when cooked properly.
Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of
documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of
guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice
is at best questionable, IMHO.
Lord Ras
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:04:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Squash
<<
Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of
documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of
guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice
is at best questionable, IMHO.
Lord Ras
>>
I don't know---I've grown a variety of the edible Italian gourds and
they and zucchini are pretty interchangable for cooking puposes. Yes, the
texture of the gourds is firmer, and the flavor is stronger, but recipes for
one seem to generally work for the other. And since you can't, to my
knowledge, easily buy any of the edible gourds in sufficient quantities to
serve at a large feast, I think it's a reasonable substitute. I like it
better than just tossing all the recipes for gourds out the window because we
can't get the real item. Rather like using modern carrots for period
ones..........
Ldy Diana, who would love to be able to grow the food for her feasts, if she
just had enough space!
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:05:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Pumpkins?
Yes, I know this isn't strictly arts & sciences, but I'm _afraid_ to get
on the Cooks' list-- too much traffic.
In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about
four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta
Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins,
including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says
they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of
Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them.
Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about
and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly
LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of
any that would qualify offhand.
Help! This is driving me nuts!
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, aka Aunt Bunny, mka Jennifer Heise
jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:18:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pumpkins?
In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about
four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta
Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins,
including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says
they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of
Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them.
Check out the page from Cariadoc's Miscellany:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/cooking_from_primary_sources.html
Tibor
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 19:33:18 -0500 (EST)
From: ALBAN at delphi.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pumpkins?
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa asked
>>n research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about
four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta
Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins,
including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says
they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of
Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them.
Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about
and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly
LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of
any that would qualify offhand.
<<
I just checked the Oxford English Dictionary; the earliest use of either
"pumpkin" or "pompion" (both referring to the same type of plant/
squash) was in the mid 1500's. Now, whether or not they referred
to a New World or an Old World plant I have no idea - but the plant is,
at the very least, a period beastie.
Alban
From: John or Fraya Davis <gameroom at infowest.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pumpkins?
Pumpkins are strictly New World. The only references I've found to them are
as follows from "Food" by Waverly Root:
"In 1540 or thereabouts, Hernando de Alvarado, acting as a scout for
Coronado's penetration of the American Southwest, reported to his chief that
the territory he had explored grew melons. They could not have been
melons, Old World fruits which did not exist in American until the Europeans
brought them there."
"In 1584 Jacques Cartier reported from the St. Lawrence region that he had
found there 'gros melons', translated into English not as 'big melons' but
as 'pompions', pumpkins. As early as 1586, English botanists began writing
about 'melons' and 'millions' as meaning pumpkins. They had picked the word
up, perhaps, from Thomas Hariot, who in the same year had reported the
presence in Virginia of vegetables 'called by us pompions, melons, and
gourds, because they are of the like forms of those kinds in England'.
'The Europeans who encountered squashes and pumpkins in America had to
compare them to melons or some other European vegetable or fruit because
they had never seen anything quite like them before and had no word for
them...we may make bold to assert that squashes and pumpkins are uniquely
American and were completely unknown to the Old World before the time of
Columbus."
"I have one translation of [Charlemagne's recipe for squash soup] in French
and another in English. The French translation of the word Charlemagne used
is courge, 'squash'; but the English translation is 'gourd'."
"Despite their speedy entry into botanical literature in the sixteenth and
seventeenth centuries, squashes did not reach European tables in any numbers
until the nineteenth. There is one reference (in a French source) to the
introduction of the vegetable marrow into Enland about 1700, but the English
themselves did not seem to be aware of it."
Hope that helps. This books is invaluable to me when deciding what foods
were eaten in period. I never realized potatoes were not eaten in England
until the 1700s.
Gillian
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:20:11 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - pumpkins
The word "pumpkin" predates the introduction of the New World vegetable
that now goes by that name. My guess is that it referred to some other
edible gourd, probably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?), the white flowered gourd,
which is our (my and Betty's) best guess at what the early cookbooks mean
by terms such as "gourd" and "pumpkin."
David/Cariadoc
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:30:49 -0400
From: llewmike at iwaynet.net
Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....)
Castelvetro published his work in England in 1614 after years of
research. I have read several other sources on what he meant by
pumpkins and have concluded that he may have meant the "white pumpkin"
of the cucurbitas family. The full title is Brieve racconto di tutte le
radici, di tuttte l'herbe et di tutti i frutti, che crudi o cotti in
Italia si mangiano. LLEW
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:28:23 -0400
From: llewmike at iwaynet.net
Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....)
The "white pumpkin" was a large gourd of the Lagnaria family (not
cucurbitas as I previously mentioned). It is a large white gourd
introduced into Europe during Roman times according to Jane Grigson.
After a little more research, I have come to the conclusion that what he
meant were the old world variety because he describes not only making
pies out of them but also cutting them into strips for eating. LLEW
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:05:53 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast)
> Seannach asked...
> >I just found a modern recipe for gingered butternut squash soup that has
> sweet potatoes in it, and am making it tonight to test out.....is there
> any way this could be period?<
>
> Prolly not. It has sweet potatoes in it. But then, I have gotten somewhat
> confused as to the legitimacy of yellow potatoes in late period Italy.
> Some of us are saying that they were there, and others are saying nay.
>
> Since I was the original poster for the question of butternut squash being
> period (can't find it in Culpeppers or other sources) I too would be
> interested in this.
>
> Micaylah
The references I have available suggest that the sweet potato (Ipomoea
batatas) entered Italy about 1528 with haricot beans as part of a
presentation to Pope Clement VII from Cortez's expedition into Mexico.
The butternut squash (Cucurbita moschata) is much more of a problem.
Cucurbita moschata is found in Africa, Asia, and both Americas. The genus
contains winter squash, some pumpkins, and some gourds. Of particular
interest are bottle gourds, which have been found in Egyptian and
Mesoamerican tombs. While I have not been able to confirm it, I suspect
butternuts are modern variants and bottle gourds or Japanese pumpkin would
have been more likely to be used in period.
Bear
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:31:26 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast)
> 1. I'm pretty sure C. Moschata is New World.
>
> 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?).
>
> David/Cariadoc
The Langenaria used to be the Old World gourds and the Cucurbita were
primarily New World squashes, so you are probably correct. There have been
some changes in taxonomy, but I haven't been able to tell if they are
commonly accepted or under debate. Several sources commented on differences
in taxonomy, but provided little specific information. The source I was
quoting places C. moschata in Africa, Asia, and both North and South America
and places the bottle gourd in C. moschata. It appears to be thorough,
authoritative and accurate, however it may represent a particular academic
heresy or I may have misread the information.
I'm interested in determining a chronology for the variants of the species
of Cucurbita, so I will be looking at this further.
Bear
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:38:28 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast)
ddfr at best.com writes:
<< 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?).
David/Cariadoc >>
Bottle gourds, bird's nest gourds, snake gourds and luffa gourds are all
legenaria, SFAIK. They are all also very edible when picked young. In fact, I
passed out several snake gourds at Pennsic to interested parties but have
recieved no input about their experiments so far. My own experiments from those
grown in my garden show luffa, bottle and snake gourds to be very tasty and
they produced good results when used in all the period gourd/squash/pumpkin
(e.g. pompion) recipes that I tried.
Ras
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:41:35 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Pumpkins/gourds (Was: gingered butternut squash soup)
Cariadoc said:
>> 1. I'm pretty sure C. Moschata is New World.
>>
>> 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?).
>>
and Bear replied:
>The Langenaria used to be the Old World gourds and the Cucurbita were
>primarily New World squashes, so you are probably correct. There have been
>some changes in taxonomy, but I haven't been able to tell if they are
>commonly accepted or under debate. Several sources commented on
differences
>in taxonomy, but provided little specific information. The source I was
>quoting places C. moschata in Africa, Asia, and both North and South
America
>and places the bottle gourd in C. moschata. It appears to be thorough,
>authoritative and accurate, however it may represent a particular academic
>heresy or I may have misread the information.
>
>I'm interested in determining a chronology for the variants of the species
>of Cucurbita, so I will be looking at this further.
>
>Bear
About ten years ago I dug into the botanical literature looking for what
gourds, squash, pumpkin, etc would have been used in period. I had a
picture from a pre-Columbus _Taciunum Sanitatas_ of
some that are green-skinned and shaped somewhere between butternut and
zucchini (i.e. long with some swelling toward the bottom end), and the
plants have white flowers. I found, among others, the following article:
Whitaker, Thomas W., "American Origin of the Cultivated Cucurbits," Annals
of the Missouri Botanical Garden, 1947.
His conclusion, on a variety of evidence ranging from what seeds and rinds
have been found in what ancient garbage dumps to what the 15th and 16th
century herbals show, is that all or almost all squash you find in the
grocery belong to one of three New World species of the genus Cucurbita
(there is one Old World species of that genus, but it isn't cultivated).
Cucurbita pepo includes zucchini, the standard orange pumpkin, yellow
summer squash, (I think) acorn squash, and various others. Cucurbita
moschata includes butternut and some others I don't remember. Cucurbita
maxima includes Hubbard squash and some others that get really big. He
didn't really go into the question of what Europeans ate before the New
World squashes come in, but he did mention the White-Flowered Gourd,
Lagenaria sicereia, as something that people have eaten. (At least some,
and maybe all, of the New World species have yellow flowers.)
A few years later we came across the book _Food in China_ by Frederick J.
Simoons, CRC Press, Boca Raton 1991. He listed Lagenaria sicereia (calling
it the bottle gourd) as still eaten in China, and had a line drawing
consistant with the _Taciunum Sanitatas_ picture mentioned above. So armed
with his book, we visited Chinatown. We had a Latin name and an English
name and a picture and the people in the store had a Chinese name and a
Vietnamese name, so I won't swear we got the right thing, but we took it
home and tried it in some of Platina's recipes. The taste was probably
closer to zucchini than any other common squash I know, but not as bitter.
We have found the same thing since sold by Chinese or Vietnamese merchants;
the name at least one of them gave it is "opo" and he told us it had white
flowers. I have also seen white-flowered gourd grown in a Farm Park near
Cleveland, though I didn't get to taste those.
One of the neat things about the SCA is the chance to do research on
thoroughly off-the-wall topics.
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:50:57 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Period squashes
SMaynard at qtrndss1.telstra.com.au writes:
<< Is there a period alternative?
Willianm=-) >>
Well, that's a tough question. Elizabeth has just about covered it in a
previous post.
There is also the small matter of whether the 'pompion' recipes from period
are referring to a squash that resembles our winter squashes. Most people
erroneously assume that this is the case because of circumstantial evidence or
modern observations. I tend to think that the white flowered edible gourds
are the squash/pumpkins being referred to. I also feel that the name for our
pumpkins was not applied because the fruits resembled those grown in Europe
but rather because the plant resembled that which was grown in Europe.
Edible gourds can be used in all the period recipes calling for 'pumpkins' or
gourds. Most call for the vegetable to be 'sliced' or 'chopped' unlike modern
pumpkin recipes which call for mashing. When the bird's nest, bottle, snake
or loofa gourds are used in period recipes, the end result is very good. The
fact that most modern recipes use winter squash is irrelevant because there
are modern recipes that use zucchini and patty pans, which are summer
squashes that have a flavor very similar to the edible gourds.
Ras
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:54:00 EST
From: Seton1355 at aol.com
Subject: SC - my medieval dinner party - long
Last night I had some mundane friends over and served them a medieval feast.
They really enjoyed it and were interested in the background of the recipes.
The evening went off well so I thought I'd post the recipes I used.
Phillipa
***Winter Squash or Pumpkin Soup***
The Medieval Kitchen
Redon, Sabban, Serventi
University of Chicago Press
1998
SQUASH. For squash, Peel them and cut them into slices. Remove the seeds
if there are any and cook them in water in a pan. Then drain them and rinse
them in cold water. Squeeze them and chop them finely. Mix with some beef
and other meat broth and add cow's milk and mix half a dozen egg yolks. Put
through a seive into the broth and milk. On fast days use the cooking water
from dried peas or almond milk and butter.
5 1/2 lbs winter squash or pumpkin
4 C almond milk - made with a little more than 4 cups of water and 2/3 C
almonds
4 Tbsp butter
salt to taste
Peel the squash and remove the seeds.
Cut into 1" chunks and cook on boiling salted water for 10 minutes.
The squash must remain firm and must not fall apart.
Drain and press gently through a seive to remove excess water.
Chop to a coarse puree with a knife or food processor.
Place the puree in a sauce pan, add the almond milk and butter and bring to a
boil.
Check for salt before serving
This was the Lenten recipe. It was OK, but it didn't "send" me. My guests,
however, had 2 helpings! The texture of the finished product was like eating
pumpkin straight out of the can. I just found another pumpkin soup recipe in
this book that I like better. I'll try that next time.
<snip of ***Chicken Ambrogino With Dried Fruit*** recipe>
<snip of ***Green Poree for Days of Abstainence*** recipe>
<snip of ***Mashed turnips and parsnips*** recipe>
<snip of ***Gingerbread*** recipe>
Anyway, this was my menu...oh yes, I also made fried potatoes, no recipe.
Everyone liked everything, includeing my picky son!
Phillipa
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:21:03 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please?
Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:
> I did not know, until after I made the meal, My Lord, and all I had was canned
> pumpkin anyway...BUT.....I wanted to try the soup again using a different
> squash so thank you for pointing me in the right direction! But where do you
> get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name?
> Thank you,
> Phillipa
I believe they're known as long squashes, and I _think_ they're the same
as what the Chinese call the fuzzy or hairy melon; while they're shiny
on the surface, they do have a faint layer of peach fuzz. You can often
find them at Asian markets.
Adamantius
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:35:33 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please?
Seton1355 at aol.com writes:
<< But where do you
get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name?
Phillipa >>
You can get these gourds from my garden in season or you can go to Agway or
any other garden center and buy the seeds of 'Italian Edible Gourds' or the
seeds of 'Luffa sponge' gourds. As you know from personal experience, our
local makets are not noted for supplying anything that smacks of food that the
majority of the world's population eats except on rare occasions so the
closest thing you will probably find at our local markets is zucchini (also
new world) which has a texture and taste similar to white flowered gourds.
This year I plan on putting some of these up in the freezer so Guild members
will have them to 'play' with in the off season.
Ras
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:09:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please?
At 3:03 PM -0500 3/14/99, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:
>I did not know, until after I made the meal, My Lord, and all I had was canned
>pumpkin anyway...BUT.....I wanted to try the soup again using a different
>squash so thank you for pointing me in the right direction! But where do you
>get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name?
>Thank you,
The old world gourds are still used in Chinese cooking, and we have gotten
what we think are Lagenaria from chinese grocery stores. I say "think"
because we had a book on the history of Chinese cooking with an English
name and a latin name and a picture, and the people in the grocery store
had gourds and a Vietnamese name (and maybe a Chinese name--it was a while
ago), so we aren't sure we got the right thing.
One possibility, if you can talk to someone familiar with growing the
gourds, is to ask what color the flowers are. I think the "Italian edible
gourds" that one sometimes sees in seed catalogs are lagenereia too. What
you are looking for are edible gourds with white flours and scientific
name Lagenaria sicereia. We have been told that one source for the seeds is
J.L. Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064).
The ones we found tasted more like zucchini than any of the other squashes,
so that might be a good substitution. On the other hand, most of the
familiar pumpkin/squash things are one species (Cucurbita pepo), which
demonstrates how wide a variation you can get with a single species; for
all I know there are Lagenaria equivalents of pumpkins etc.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:43:29 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Gourds
troy at asan.com writes:
<< Most obvious thing that comes to mind is the hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a.
white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the
medieval European cucurbit gourd.
Adamantius >>
In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of
'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or
cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle
(or bird's house) gourd are all edible when young . These are the most likely
candidates.
On what evidence do your base your belief that fuzzy gourds from the Orient
would have been used? Cariadoc also mentions fuzzy. I suspect that the
relative ease of finding that type in US markets is the major criteria for
your suggestion. Please correct me if I am wrong and provide greater details
supporting your position.
Ras
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 11:39:35 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Gourds
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> << hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a.
> white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the
> medieval European cucurbit gourd.
>
> Adamantius >>
>
> In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of
> 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or
> cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle
> (or bird's house) gourd are all edible when young . These are the most likely
> candidates.
>
> On what evidence do your base your belief that fuzzy gourds from the Orient
> would have been used?
Same evidence as you, probably. Do you mean Orient, by any chance?
White-flowered gourds, fuzzy or hairy melons, are more or less
indigenous to the Eurasian landmass, and appear, and did appear, in the
cuisines of the Far East, India, Persia, etc. The illustrations (we're
probably talking about the same ones) show pale green oblong fruits,
somewhat fatter at the flower end than at the stem, sometimes slightly
curved. Also small white blossoms. Up close, the melons have a slight
down on them, more akin to the fuzzy stuff you can rub off the skin of a
quince than to peachfuzz, hence the appellation, fuzzy.
> Cariadoc also mentions fuzzy. I suspect that the
> relative ease of finding that type in US markets is the major criteria for
> your suggestion. Please correct me if I am wrong and provide greater details
> supporting your position.
Consider yourself offically corrected: if that were the case, I would
suggest the period European gourd was in fact frozen peas ; ) My
position is based on the fact that the melon/gourd could easily, from a
scientific standpoint, have been grown in period Europe, and looks quite
a lot like the illustrations in several different versions of Tacuinum
Sanitatis. While this doesn't prove that they _were_ the period European
gourd, it allows for a possibility equally viable to that of the various
Italian gourds, which are possibly of the same species anyway. I should
point out, though, that bottleneck gourds (which a man down the street
from me grows) really don't look too much like the period illustrations
I've seen. There may have been a bit of intervarietal hybridization to
enhance that bottle shape in the intervening years.
Some confusion may be caused by the fact that Tacuinum Sanitatis
occasionally depicts items with which the illustrator was not personally
familiar, so we can't always rely 100% on the illustrations (the bananas
are cute, though). The similarities between the gourds as illustrated
and fuzzy melons are pretty uncanny, however.
But yes, it's true that fuzzy melons may be more available in the
commercial ethnic markets than Italian gourds, which is probably why I
often see people looking as if they might be Italian buying fuzzy melons
in the Indian and Chinese markets near me. Of course they could be
sauteeing them with beef in oyster sauce... ; ) . One never knows, do one?
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:01:12 -0400
From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - cordials + Borage
If you have a local farm and garden store try there. In NY we have places
called Agway, where they have borage seeds. I ordered mine from Shumway
seed company a few years ago, but haven't planted more since.
I also like Pinetree Seeds. http://www.superseeds.com
You can order smaller seed packets from them to try different things and
the seed packets are about half the price of the larger ones. They also
have some interesting possibly period seeds. They have the edible gourd
seeds. They are in the italian vegetable seed section and here's the blurb:
IT66. CUCUZZI (55 days)
Italian edible gourd. You can tell that these are truly gourds from the
leaf shape and the white flowers, but when harvested young, the uses are identical to zucchini. The flavor is stronger, however--difficult to describe. Vines are long and spreading. As with the zucchetta tromboncino, if you don't harvest them young, these will grow to a remarkable length, close to 4 feet.
20 seeds .55
Angeline
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:34:29 +1000
From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M at casa.gov.au>
Subject: SC - Gourds: Live and growing
Greetings all,
This is from Rowan who is unfortunately unsubscribed at the moment. She is
growing langanaria sicaria (sic). Mel.
> Adamantius wrote:
> >> << Most obvious thing that comes to mind is the hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a.
> >> white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the
> >> medieval European cucurbit gourd.
>
> Ras said:
> >> In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of
> >> 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or
> >> cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle
> ...
>
> Well, I've just grown one from seed (thanks Drake) and you are both right!
> The vine had white flowers, about half the size of zucchhini flowers, but
> otherwise grew rather like a pumpkin - it was a climber. The resulting gourd
> is long and skinny, rather like a lebanese cucumber. I picked the sole
> result when it was 18" long. It has a bright mid green shiny skin, covered
> in little hairs - it is definitely fuzzy, but in a delicate way. It's
> sitting on my bench at home right now, waiting for me to decide how I'll
> cook it...
>
> I will try to take a photo and post it, if it works out...
>
> Rowan
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:06:07 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Gourds
troy at asan.com writes:
<<....<snip>......The illustrations (we're probably talking about the same
ones)>>
I don't think so. The illustration in the herbal clearly shows a bottle shape
that is globular at the stem end thinning in the middle and widening to a
fatter globe on the flower end. In the background are long skinny objects
which could be interpreted as very long cucumbers or Italian edible gourds.
Interspersed throughout are rather samller objects that could be cucumbers
but the pointing ends suggest luffas to me rather than the former. Both
Italian edible gourds and bottle gourds have a dense fuzz covering them when
they are young. I haven't grown luffas in a while so I can't say if they have
fuzz when young or not.
One other point that might be taken into consideration is that although the
growing season for all 3 types of gourds mentioned above is rather long, the
fuzzy melon takes a considerably longer season to mature.
Apparantly this is an area that needs more study. :-)
Ras
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:48:01 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Gourds: Live and growing
"HICKS, MELISSA" wrote:
> This is from Rowan who is unfortunately unsubscribed at the moment. She is
> growing langanaria sicaria (sic). Mel.
> >
> > Well, I've just grown one from seed (thanks Drake) and you are both right!
> > The vine had white flowers, about half the size of zucchhini flowers, but
> > otherwise grew rather like a pumpkin - it was a climber. The resulting
> > gourd
> > is long and skinny, rather like a lebanese cucumber. I picked the sole
> > result when it was 18" long. It has a bright mid green shiny skin, covered
> > in little hairs - it is definitely fuzzy, but in a delicate way. It's
> > sitting on my bench at home right now, waiting for me to decide how I'll
> > cook it...
> >
> > I will try to take a photo and post it, if it works out...
And in the mean time, check this out:
http://www.nre.vic.gov.au/trade/asiaveg/thes-34.htm
for a photo of fuzzy melons.
One possible source of confusion might be that simply knowing the
supposed botanical/taxonomical name of something living doesn't
necessary enable you to distinguish it from something else, since
frequently a species will have more than one genus name on record, and
sometimes even more than one entire species designation. So, for
example, knowing that the fuzzy melon is benincasa hispada isn't
especially helpful when others know it as cucurbita hispada, and other
sources refer to the winter melon (an entirely different squash and
looking nothing at all like the fuzzy melon, being more or less
spherical) as both the fuzzy or hairy melon _and_ as cucurbita hispada.
Seems as if even some of the botanists are somewhat confused on this
point, but the lagenaria and benincasa genera seem to have nearly
identical specimens of cucurbit gourds.
As Ras says, more research is indicated, but at the end of the research
trail one may find that it makes little difference in the end, and there
may actually be no "one, true Gourd", provided that one understands the
basic concept that neither zucchini nor bumpy New World ornamental
pumpin-type gourds are what the medieval European recipes are talking about.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:33:41 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - New World Foods-list
> I have a question regarding Pumpkin. In Apicius, there are many recipes that
> specify pumpkin. (Book III) The latin word they use is cucurbitas. Granted,
> whatever "pumpkin" they are referring to in those recipes is not what we
> have today. There are references to green string beans, and "marrow" as
> zucchini squash. This may be where the problem lies in determining what is
> and is not "period". How do we tell the difference between what the original
> recipe said, and the language the translaters use?
>
> Aldyth
> Aldyth at aol.com
The curcubitas referred to in Apicius are almost certainly members of the
genus Lagenaria, which contains calabashes, dipper and bottle gourds. The
Lagenaria are believed to be of African origin and spread to Asia and Europe
in prehistoric times. They are found in New World archeological sites
beginning around 7000 BC. The dispersion to the New World is believed to
have been by current drift from Africa or Asia, although the Diffusionist
claim it as evidence of commerce between the New and Old Worlds in
prehistoric times.
The Lagenaria and the genus Cucurbita are both members of the family
Cucurbitaceae. The Cucurbita are the squashes and pumpkins from the New
World. While there is a botanical theory that some of the Cucurbita have an
Asian origin, none are found in Europe and there is no evidence that any
reached Europe prior to Columbus. I tend to believe they were transported
as seed from the New World and quickly adopted to replace the Old World
gourds in cooking. Vincenzo Campi's The Fruit Seller (circa 1580) shows a
green pumpkin-shaped squash (which was identified as a "marrow" in
accompanying text) and what is probably a pumpkin (stem hidden, making
actual identification impossible.
While the marrow squash is a large, watery version of the zucchini, the
identification on the above squash as a marrow makes me think the Brits may
use the term very loosely.
BTW, your string bean is probably a yard long bean, which is of Old World
origin.
Bear
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:52:01 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes?
lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
<< Are there any authentic (obviously late) "period"recipes for pumpkin? >>
This depends on what you mean by 'pumpkin.' The word was used for old world
varieties of several gourd species some of which looked little liked the New
World food which also received the old world name of 'pumpkin.' Many period
recipes exist for squash or pumpkin. If you have Scully's The Medieval
Kitchen, there is a nice one for a broth-squash based pottage that you might
find useful for your purposes. I have tried it using several species of old
world 'pumpkin' including immature bushel basket, birdhouse, Italian Edible
and loofa gourds with excellent results. The translated and original recipes
from Libro de arte coquinaria by Maestro Martinoas as they appear in Scully
follows:
Mondale como vogliono essene, et poi cocile con brodo di carne, overo con
acqua et mettevi un pocha de cipolla secundo la quantita che tu vorrai fare.
Et quando pareca cotta cacciala fore, et passa ogni cosa per la cocchiara
straforata, overo pistale molto bene, et metteli accocere in una pignatta con
brodo grasso, et con un pocho d'gresto. Et siano un pocho gialle di zafrano;
et quando sono cotte toglile dal focho et lasciale un pocho refredare. Dapoi
togli di rossi d'ova secundo la quantita et sbattili con un pocho di caso
vecchio et gitaggli in le ditte zucche menando continuamente col cocchiaro
accio che non si prendano: et fa le menestre et mectevi sopra spetie dolci.
To cook squashes, peel them as they should be, and then cook them with meat
broth or water; add a little onion according to the quantity you want to
make. And when they seem cooked, take them out and put them through a
strainer or pound them very well; and cook them in a pot with rich broth and
a little verjuice. And they should be slightly yellow with saffron, and when
they are cooked, remove them from the fire and leave them a while to cool.
Then take egg yolks according to the quantity and beat them with a little
aged cheese, and add them to the squash, stirring constantly with the spoon
so that they do not stick; dress your bowls, and top with sweet spices.
Ras
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:11:51 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes?
Someone wrote (I'm picking this one up second hand)
> >Even if it isn't New World pumpkin, are there any European cookbooks
> >that actually refer to pumpkin or pompon or pompion?
The OED entry under pompion quotes Tusser, 1570 or so, as saying (I
think) that it is boiled or cooked in butter in May. But that doesn't
sound like pumpkin, given the date, and the West Kingdom contest is
fall, not spring.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:04:50 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Period pumpkin recipes
At 10:34 AM -0500 3/1/00, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
>I've been checking through the Spanish sources, since they seem likely
>to contain late-period pumpkin recipes. the trouble is that the Spanish
>word for pumpkin "calabaza" also refers to various gourds and
>squashes. I did find one recipe that looks promising. It's various ways
>of stuffing calabazas. The first variation calls for scooping out the
>insides of the calabaza, and filling it with a mixture that includes ground
>veal or pork, bacon, cheese, eggs, raisins, spices, small chickens, and
>stuffed pigeons. Is there anything in the cucurbita family that's large
>enough to accomodate this assortment, other than a pumpkin?
Why are you limiting yourself to the cucurbita family--all of whose
members are, I think, New World. _The Four Seasons of the House of
Cerruti_, which predates the discovery of the New World, shows large
edible gourds, presumably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?). Given how wide
the range of size is in C. Pepo, I wouldn't be surprised if there
were lageneria big enough for what you describe, but I don't know.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 01:46:03 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes?
<< but so far nothing with a name even vaguely like pumpkin. ... are
there any European cookbooks that actually refer to pumpkin or pompon or
pompion? >>
The OED (1933 vol. X 117a) quotation s.v. "sugared" might lead to a
recipe:
1600 Surflet Countrie Farme 252 To make cucumbers or pompions sugred,
you must steepe the seed in water that is well sweetned with sugar or
honie, .. and so sowe them.
The quotations s.v. "pumpkin" are beginning only 1647. The entry
"pompion" has quotations from 1545 onwards, e.g.
1587 Harrison ... An acre of ground .. whereon to set cabbages ..
pompons, or such like stuffe.
1573 Tusser ... Herbes and rootes to boile or to butter. .. Pompions in
May. (OED1 Vol. VII 1104b).
Alas, there are not recipes, but the latter quotation at least seems to
mention a kind of preparation (depends on what was left out in the
quotation).
The German "Rheinfr‰nkisches Kochbuch" (c. 1445) has a recipe for
"K?rbes musz", and there are several recipes for "zuche" in the 15th (or
14th?) century Anonimo Veneziano published by Faccioli and Frati... But
I assume these are not the species you are looking for.
The variety of species and names in this family is really impressing. Is
there an inventory of the different species and of the European
expressions for these species somewhere?
Best,
Thomas
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:29:48 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: SC - period pumpkin recipes?
In response to Thomas Gloning, i'm forwarding a message that
Christine A Seelye-King was kind enough to send me. It has been
slightly edited for layout, but i have not changed the content.
>--------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: khkeeler <kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu>
>To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG
>Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:09:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: HERB - the period pumpkin
>
>RAISYA wrote:
>> I've been working on figuring out what the period pumpkin is, and I'd like
>> to hear from other people.
>> There's an illumination of the period pumpkin in the 14th century TACUINUM
>> SANITATIS. Both the leaves and fruit of the plant look like a butternut
>> squash. The modern pumpkin and most squash belong to Cucurbita pepo and
>> Cucurbita maxima which originated in N. and S. America, while the butternut
> > squash belongs to Cucurbita moschata.
><snip>
> > I think the butternut squash makes the most sense, but maybe there's something
>> I haven't come across. Has anyone else looked into this?
>> Raisya Khorivovna
>
>My sources are
>NW Simmonds, Evolution of crop plants (Longman 1976)
>JF Hancock, Plant evolution and the origin of crop species (Prentice Hall 1992)
>BB Simpson and MC Ogorzaly Economic botany: plants in our world
>(McGraw-Hill, 2nd ed. 1995).
>
>As you say, New World plants are
>Cucurbita pepo (summer squash, marrow, pumpkin, zuccini, acorn squash,
>crookneck, spaghetti, ornamental squashes)
>but also
>C. moschata (winter squash, butternut squash, pumpkin)
>C. maxima (winter squash, pumpkin, winter marrow)
>C. mixta (winter squash, hubbard squash, turban squash, pumpkin)
>C. ficifolia (fig-leaf gourd).
>Simpson and Ogorzaly suggest ways to distinguish the above (p. 126).
>
>Totally separate and much more complicated are Old World members of this
>family (Cucurbitaceae).
>Cucumis sativus (cucumber) originally from India,
>Cucumis melo (muskmelon, cantalope) Africa, India,
>Citrullus lanatus (watermelon) South Africa ,
>Languinaria siceraria (white-flowered gourd) Africa, the Americas
>Luffa acutangula, L. cylindrica (luffa) Asia.
>Watermelons are very old: appear in Dioscorides, were being grown in
>China by 1200 AD
>Cucumis melo doesn't occur in Egyptian or Greek writing, does in texts
>from the end of the Roman empire--current varieties include cantaloupe,
>Perisan, musk, Cranshaw and honeydew melons
>Cucumbers are known from ancient Egypt, were widely dispersed across the OW
>white-flowered gourd - known from Ecuador and Peru 7,000 yrs ago, Egypt
>3,000 yrs ago- currently thought to be a natural disjunction with the
>plant naturally occurring both places.
>Simpson and Ogorzaly call the Old World cucurbits "dessert foods", the
>New World "staple foods" which fits the distribution given above. But
>is a problem for interpretting Period pumpkins.
>On the other hand, the Simmonds book makes a casual reference to a firm,
>hard greenish watermelon called citron, used for feeding livestock (but,
>likely in S. Africa)- so there may be more varieties of these fruits
>than my sources deal with.
> Good question, I'll see what less direct references suggest.
>Agnes deLanvallei, Mag Mor, Calontir
>--
>mka Kathy Keeler
>kkeeler1 at unl.edu
Some other messages in the thread indicate that "family" is used
where "genus" should have been used.
Also as there has been some botanical reorganization, some plants
appear in more than one species, because they were so listed in
different books.
If i am understanding correctly, the long, pale green Italian gourd
is a Languinaria. Please, anyone, correct me if i have confused
things. The plant that Pinetree Seeds is selling under Italian
Vegetables - Gourds-Edible
- --- from on-line catalog ---
IT66. CUCUZZI (55 days)
Italian edible gourd. You can tell that these are truly gourds from
the leaf shape and the white flowers, but when harvested young, the
uses are identical to zucchini. The flavor is stronger, however--difficult to
describe. Vines are long and spreading. As with the zucchetta
tromboncino, if you don't harvest them young, these will grow to a
remarkable length, close to 4 feet. 20 seeds .55
- --- end quote from catalog ---
I could find no gourds on-line at Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds.
Anahita al-shazhiyya
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:52:35 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Period pumpkin recipes
And it came to pass on 1 Mar 00,, that david friedman wrote:
> At 10:34 AM -0500 3/1/00, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
> >I've been checking through the Spanish sources, since they seem likely to
> >contain late-period pumpkin recipes. the trouble is that the Spanish
> >word for pumpkin "calabaza" also refers to various gourds and squashes.
[snip]
> >Is there anything in the cucurbita family
> >that's large enough to accomodate this assortment, other than a pumpkin?
>
> Why are you limiting yourself to the cucurbita family--all of whose
> members are, I think, New World.
::sigh:: That's what comes of relying on my memory, especially when
I'm feeling fuzzy-headed. I was mistakenly thinking that all the Old
World and New World gourds/squashes were different
varieties of cucurbita. Thank you for the correction.
> _The Four Seasons of the House of
> Cerruti_, which predates the discovery of the New World, shows large
> edible gourds, presumably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?). Given how wide the
> range of size is in C. Pepo, I wouldn't be surprised if there were
> lageneria big enough for what you describe, but I don't know.
In looking at the other recipes that I have access to, it's become even
clearer that the term calabaza is used generically to refer to that
category of vegetable. Some of the recipes do specify that the
calabaza should be large or small or tender, according to the
requirements of that particular dish. The recipe for Torta de Calabazas
says that one can cook all varieties of calabaza in this manner. So I
reluctantly conclude that there is no way for me to know which (if any)
of the calabaza recipes refer to pumpkin, or a pumpkin-like gourd.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:12:35 ESTFrom: LrdRas at aol.comSubject: Re: SC - Re: period pumpkin seed sourcesalm4 at cornell.edu writes:<< I'll let people know because I plan on ordering the seeds from Baker's and trying to grow them. >>Great. We can compare notes. :-) Regarding the time from seed to harvest. This time is until the first gourds bearing 'hard' shells are ready. The time until harvest would be considerably shorter for use as food. All gourds should be used when young as they are inedible when they reach a mature hard shelled size. Also the skins are tender and thin until they start to mature. Basically, if you cannot puncture the skin easily with a fingernail the gourd is too large to use for food purposes.Ras
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:45:29 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - period pumpkin recipes?
TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes:
<< Pardon Ras, but you have a terminology error. Gourds are members of the
family Cucurbitaceae. They are not part of the genus Cucurbita.
>>
Yes, that is what I meant.
Also, loofas are very edible when young. Very good in fact.
Ras
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:00:12 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: SC - Stuffed gourds
Here's the maybe-pumpkin recipe from Granado.
Source: Diego Granado, _Libro del Arte de Cozina_ (Spanish, 1599)
Translation: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)
PARA RELLENAR DE DIVERSAS MANERAS LAS CALABAZAS -- To
stuff gourds in various ways
If you wish to cook the gourds, diligently clean them of their rinds,
taking care not to break them. Make a round opening at the part where
the flower is, and the stem, and with a knife remove all that is inside.
And stuff it with a mixture made from lean meat of veal, or of pork
chopped with an equal amount of lean and fatty bacon, and adding
cheese, eggs, raisins, common spices, and saffron. And have small
chickens and pigeons, stuffed, and put them in the gourd with the said
mixture, and when it is full cover it with some round slices of the same
gourd. And put it in a proportionate vessel, in such a way that it cannot
move, with enough broth to come up to more than halfway, covered with
streaky bacon cut into slices, or with salted pig's belly. This is done so
that the gourd should take on flavor and should not be insipid. And in
the broth put pepper, cinnamon, and saffron. And cause it to cook over
the coals, keeping the vessel covered so that it cannot breathe, and
when it has boiled a little while, just until the mixture has compressed,
add more broth and let it finish cooking. And when it is cooked, strain
the broth from the same vessel, and put the gourd on a plate and serve
it hot with the bacon all around.
You can also fill the gourd with milk, beaten eggs, sugar, and streaky
bacon cut into bits.
You can also make it in another manner. And that will be, having made
an opening without taking off the rind, remove the interior and with
dexterity arrange slices of lean bacon inside, on the bottom as well as
on the sides, and have ready uncooked yellow stuffings cut up, or truly
just the mixture, and make a layer of it on the bottom. And take
pigeons, chickens, and quail, and other small birds cut up, the entrails
and the bones removed, and sprinkled with pepper, cinnamon and
cloves and nutmeg. And put them one by one in the gourd, fitting them
with the same mixture of stuffing for intestines. And at the end, upon
these birds put a slice of veal sprinkled with the said spices, which
should cover all the mixture. Then cover the opening with the same part
of the gourd that you took out, and wrap the gourd in a fold of paper and
tie it with a thread, and put it in the oven which is somewhat less hot
than if you were going to cook bread in it. After two hours take it out
and untie the paper and serve it hot.
Note: stuffings (rellenos) are mentioned in many other recipes. They
seem to be a mixture of chopped meats and seasonings, sometimes
formed into various shapes and sizes, sometimes used to fill intestines
in the manner of a sausage. Fennel is a seasoning in many of these
stuffing recipes, so Italian sausage mixture might work for redacting this
recipe. I believe that a yellow stuffing would have saffron in it, but that's
only a guess on my part.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:47:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
Subject: SC - gourds and pompions
Oh HELP! I've been trailing this question for years, and I'm still no
closer to a coherent explanation.
What _is_ the period European 'pompion', aka 'pumpkin'? It appears before
Columbus, and Walafrid of Strabo (10th century) notes that the big ones
are suitable for making 'bushels' -- bushel baskets-- out of. Which means
that they were somewhat globular and also big enough to carry stuff in
when hollowed out. They were also eaten; they appear on the account books
for the reign of Jadwiga and Jagiello in Poland (1386-1399).
Does anyone have any kind of lead on this?
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:25:51 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - gourds and pompions
Prior to Columbus, the gourds and pompions are probably members of the genus
Lagenaria (including calabashes, dippers, and bottle gourds). The Lagenaria
are believed to originate in Africa and are found in both the New and Old
Worlds. The New World Lagenaria are believed to have been brought to the
Americas from Africa by accidental dispersion via ocean currents. In
general, gourds are members of the family Cucurbitaceae having hard, durable
shells.
The squashes and pumpkins of the New World are members of the genus
Cucurbita. The common names of similar members of the Lagenaria were
applied to them when the Europeans found them. The similarity probably led
to the rapid adaption of the Cucurbita in Europe, as evidenced in a number
of 16th Century paintings dealing with food stuffs.
There is a scientific debate as to the possible Asian origin of some members
of the Cucurbita, but it is a fairly safe bet that the ones in Europe
arrived from the New World after 1492.
Other genera of the Cucurbitaceae are Cucumis, containing the cucumbers and
the melons (except the watermelon), Citrullis, the watermelons, and Luffa,
loofahs. All of these are of Old World origin.
Bear
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 00:54:14 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Re: SC - gourds and pompions
<< What _is_ the period European 'pompion', aka 'pumpkin'? It appears
before Columbus, and Walafrid of Strabo (10th century) notes that the
big ones are suitable for making 'bushels' -- bushel baskets-- out of.
Which means that they were somewhat globular and also big enough to
carry stuff in when hollowed out. They were also eaten; they appear on
the account books for the reign of Jadwiga and Jagiello in Poland
(1386-1399). >>
AHH! Walahfrid Strabo! I was rowing around his island, the Reichenau in
the Bodensee, in 1989, thinking: "Here is where Walahfrid lived more
than 1100 years ago". A fine author. He died in 849; he once was abbot
at the Reichenau. _Strabo_ means 'the cross-eyed, the squinting'.
The "cucurbita" described in his 'Hortulus' is a bottle-gourd, according
to Stoffler, the editor of the Hortulus, and according to Marzell, who
compiled a multi-volume dictionary on German plant names and who wrote a
short article about "Die Pflanzen des 'Hortulus'" (The plants of the
'Hortulus').
Only in case both of us talk about the cucurbita-chapter, I wonder if
the _vasum_ in the passage "... in assiduos formarier usus // Vasorum
poterit ..." could be rendered as "'bushels' -- bushel baskets"; the
rest of the passage speaks about how to make a vessel/ bottle from the
gourds, to preserve wine for some time.
Cucurbita is also mentioned in the plant list of the 9th century
Capitulare de Villis; Günther Franz translates "Flaschenkürbis" (bottle
gourd), thereby relying on older authors on the question, too. In
addition, at the beginning of the capitulare there is sort of an
anti-corruption passage, and in this passage "buticulas" are mentioned
as a kind of gift to officers that is allowed. Now, there is some
dispute, what "buticulas" are, but _one_ interpretation is 'bottles made
of bottle gourds (together with some content)'.
Later on, the picture versions of the Tacuin sanitatis have a chapter on
"cucurbite". E.g. the socalled "Hausbuch der Cerruti" in the National
library of Austria shows bottle gourds under the heading "cucurbite".
[BTW, this source also says something about soft and hard cheese in
winter/summer, etc.]
Then there are all the herbals. The Hortus sanitatis 1485 e.g. has a
picture together with references to ancient authorities. Leonhard Fuchs
1543 in chapter 138 ("Von Kürbs" 'Of pumkin/gourd') distinguishes
several kinds & gives pictures. About the biggest ones, he says: "Vnd
würt zwar dise frucht zuo zeiten so groß/ als ein zimlicher kübel" (and,
truely, this plant grows at times as big as a quite big tub/pail). ...
Then there are the dietetic texts ...
<< I've been trailing this question for years >>
This comes as no surprise. Go ahead.
Th.
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:51:14 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins in Period?
At 8:02 PM -0700 9/19/00, I wrote:
>The word "pompon," according to the OED, has nothing to do with
>pumpkins or gourds.
But glancing through Thomas Dawson (1597), I find him using "pompon"
for some kind of vegetable (an alternative to melon or cucumber), so
it looks as though Lady Eileen is probably right that one of its
meanings is an alternate form of "pumpkin."
The recipe, incidentally, does not give me confidence in Dawson. He
is soaking seeds in sugar water mixed with rose water, then drying
the seeds and planting them, in order to produce such melons, the
like of which have never been seen. And if you mix musk into the
sugar water ... .
- --
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:41:20 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period?
At 11:16 PM -0700 9/19/00, Susan Browning wrote:
>Does anybody know of any recipes for pumkin (old world) in period?
There are several recipes in the Miscellany that use gourds, and are
from before Columbus. I don't remember any of them using gourds
called "pumpkins" or any variant.
- --
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:22:58 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period?
> I recall seeing pumpkins in pictures of paintings included in
> the Art and Recipe cookbook that was recently discussed here.
> olwen
New World squashes and pumpkins appear in very late 16th Century paintings.
Campi's The Fruit Seller (about 1580) displays two or three varieties which
suggests that they were being marketed, at least in Italy. A number of
Italian painters included them in still lifes dating from about 1570 to
1620.
Bear
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:45:00 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period?
> True. But as far as can be determined, I believe this list came to
> conclusion that all gourds in period were varietals of the same plant,
> only in different shapes and sizes...
>
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise
I think it might be more correct to say most are members of the genus
Lagenaria and many are varieties of Lagenaria siceraria (bottle gourds).
The bitter gourd or balsam pear (Momordica charantia) was known and eaten in
period and I don't believe it is a member of the family Cucurbitacaea.
Bear
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:58:59 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins in Period?
lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
<< We had a good discussion of this back when I first learned of the
cooking competition. >>
Also remember that while bushel basket gourds do resemble the fruit of the
American pumpkin, the basis for calling the New world fruit a pumpkin was not
necessarily based on the appearance of the fruit. It most probably was based
on the appearance of the plant which is similar to several plants of the
gourd family. The 2 I have seen pictured in manuscripts are clearly NOT
bushel basket gourds but are Italian edible gourds and birdhouse gourds
respectively. while bushel basket gourds are a good candidate, I think it
would be a shame to restrict the definition to that particular plant alone
based on similar fruit appearance.
Ras
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:50:31 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period?
At 8:22 AM -0500 9/20/00, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
>New World squashes and pumpkins appear in very late 16th Century paintings.
>Campi's The Fruit Seller (about 1580) displays two or three varieties which
>suggests that they were being marketed, at least in Italy. A number of
>Italian painters included them in still lifes dating from about 1570 to
>1620.
According to Whittaker (I think), what appears to be a field pumpkin
is illustrated in 1560.
Whitaker, Thomas W., "American Origin of the Cultivated Cucurbits,"
Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden, 1947.
I don't know where the illustration is, however, and don't have a
copy of the article at hand.
- --
David Friedman
ddfr at best.com
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:47:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period?
> In any case, we don't know, or at least I don't, whether the early
> variants of "pumpkin" referred to a gourd. It might have been
> something else whose size and shape was sufficiently similar to what
> we call a pumpkin for the name to have been transferred, such as some
> kind of melon.
I think it is a mix. The one Strabo talks about isn't a melon, as it dries
with a hard rind and could be used as a bushel basket. The References to
pompions at the wedding of Jadwiga and Jagiello, however, may well be a
mistranlations of the word for melon, as Knab mentions it and Dembinska
mentions melons...
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:48:22 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins and such...
There are many varieties of period pumpkins (i.e., gourds) still available
today:
Italian Edible Gourds, Loofa Sponges, Bushel Basket Gourds and Birdhouse Gourds
immediately come to mind. Of these, the bushel basket gourd comes the closest
to looking like what we know as a 'pumpkin' today. Most period recipes using
gourds are savory rather than sweet. So far as size is concerned, manuscript
pictures showing bird house gourds appear to show them no different from
today.
Ras
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:16:15 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins and such...
> Everyone points ot htese tiny unripe green gourds as the period pompions,
> but I still wonder about Strabo's bushel-basket size pompions.
> --
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise
There is a picture from the Tacuinum Sanitatis (14th Century) showing some
large yellow-orange fruit (probably gourds) hanging from a lattice.
Here's an interesting site with pictures:
http://www.bloomingdaletel.com/~sandlady/
Here's some information on cultivation:
http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/hyg-fact/1000/1630.html
And here are some basket gourds, being used as art:
http://www.vdest.com/santafe/KivaFineArts/sf023712.html
Bear
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:50:41 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squash recipes
>I am looking for some sort of recipe for squash for a feast in a
>couple of months. I have tried to look up different recipes but I
>think I must lack the magic touch.
>
>Can any one out there give any ideas for a summer feast with
>squash?? There will be beef and turkey served as the main meat
>dishes.
1. Squash is a New World vegetable; while it is possible that there
are period recipes for it, I don't know of any. Turkey is a New World
animal; I believe there is good evidence that turkeys were being
eaten in Europe before 1600, but I don't know if there are surviving
recipes for them or not.
2. There are, however, old world gourds which are reasonably similar,
and for which there are period recipes. You may be able to find the
old world gourds (Lageneria sicereia (sp?)--the white flowered gourd)
in a chinese grocery store, since they are still used in Chinese
cooking. I think they are sometimes called "Opo" gourds.
Alternatively you can do a period gourd recipe with out of period
gourds--the period ones we have found are not all that different in
taste from zucchini.
3. Here are some period gourd recipes, from the _Miscellany_. The
part at the beginning is the original recipe, the rest is how we do
it with comments.
Gourd in Juice
Platina p. 123 (Book 7)
Cook a gourd in juice or in water with a few little onions and after
it is cut up, pass it through a perforated spoon into a kettle in
which there is rich juice, a little verjuice and saffron. Take it
from the hearth when it has boiled a little. After it has been set
aside and cooled a little, put in a little aged cheese ground up and
softened with two egg yolks; or keep stirring it with a spoon so that
lumps do not spoil it. After you have put it into saucers, sprinkle
with spices.
2 3/4 lb zucchini squash=097 threads saffron
1/2-3/4 lb onions=095 oz cheddar cheese
1/2 c rich juice: canned beef or chicken broth=092 egg yolks
verjuice: 4 T verjuice or 2 T wine vinegar=09spices (cinnamon,
ginger or nutmeg)
Peel squash, remove seeds, slice; coarsely chop onions. Cook 10
minutes in water to cover. Drain and mash. Mix broth, vinegar, and
saffron and add mashed squash. Heat, then add egg yolks and cheese.
Sprinkle with one of the spices: cinnamon was considered best.
We have also made this using gourds from a Chinese grocery store
which we believe were bottle gourds (Lagenaria siceraria), our best
guess at the gourd used in period; see the discussion at p. 152-153
below. The recipe we worked out is: Double the quantity of onions and
beef broth, keeping the other proportions as in version with squash.
Peel the gourd, boil it with whole small onions for an hour, then
discard the onions (which seems to be what the original recipe
implies). Slice gourd, mash through strainer (or use a potato ricer).
Add beef broth and verjuice, heat 15 minutes on low, let cool 10
minutes, add grated cheese and egg yolks. Sprinkle with cinnamon and
serve.
Fried Gourd
Platina p. 119 (Book 7)
Scrape off the skin from the gourd and cut it sideways in thin
slices. When it is boiled once transfer it from the pot onto the
board and leave it there till it has dried out a little. Then roll it
in salt and good white flour and fry it in oil; when it is done and
put on a platter, pour a garlic sauce over it, with fennel blossoms
and breadcrumbs so dissolved in verjuice that it looks thin rather
than thick. It would not be amiss to pass this sauce through a
strainer. There are those, too, who use only verjuice and fennel
bloom. If you like saffron, add saffron.
1 1/8 lbs gourd (see p. 152-153)=091 c flour
1 t salt=09enough olive oil to fry: ~1/4" in pan
Peel gourd and slice very thin, boil in water 7 minutes, spread out
and let dry for 40 minutes. Mix flour and salt, dip gourd in it, and
fry for ~4 minutes per batch in hot olive oil. See under sauces for
Platina's garlic sauce.
Torta from Gourds
Platina p. 136 (book 8)
Grind up gourds that have been well cleaned as you are accustomed to
do with cheese. Then let them boil a little, either in rich juice or
in milk. When they are half-cooked and have been passed through a
strainer into a bowl, add as much cheese as I said before [a pound
and a half]. Take half a pound of belly or fat udder boiled and cut
up or, instead of this, if you wish, take the same amount of either
butter or liquamen, add half a pound of sugar, a little ginger, some
cinnamon, six eggs, two ladles of milk, a little saffron, and blend
thoroughly. Put this preparation in a greased pan or in a pastry
shell and cook it over a slow fire. There are those who add strips of
leaves, which they call lagana, instead of the upper crust. When it
is cooked and set on a plate, sprinkle it with sugar and rosewater.
1/2 lb gourd (after peeling) (see p. 152-153)=091/8 t ground ginger
=096 threads saffron
1/2 c milk to cook in=091/2 t cinnamon=09double 9" pastry shell
8 oz cheddar cheese=091 egg=092 T sugar sprinkled on top
2 oz butter=091/2 c milk=091 T rosewater
1/4 c sugar
Grind gourd finely with a grater and boil in milk for six minutes on
low heat while being stirred; drain in strainer and throw away
liquid, then force squash through strainer. Grate or cut up cheese;
mix with gourd, butter, sugar, egg, milk, ginger, and cinnamon. Put
in pie shell and cover with top crust. Bake in 350=B0 oven for 65
minutes; at this point it is bubbly and needs to set for a while.
Sprinkle top with sugar and rosewater. Makes one 9 inch pie.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] squash recipes
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:08:49 -0500
> 1. Squash is a New World vegetable; while it is possible that there
> are period recipes for it, I don't know of any.
While I know of no recipes for squash, squash appears in Vincenzo Campi's
The Fruit Seller (1580) suggesting that squash was commonly for sale around
Milan in the late 16th Century. It may be that no specific recipes for
squash exist, because they served as a replacement for gourds.
> 2. There are, however, old world gourds which are reasonably similar,
> and for which there are period recipes. You may be able to find the
> old world gourds (Lageneria sicereia (sp?)--the white flowered gourd)
> in a chinese grocery store, since they are still used in Chinese
> cooking. I think they are sometimes called "Opo" gourds.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
Lagenaria siceraria (I checked the quick ref to make sure, since I have a
propensity for mis-remembering taxonomic names).
They also appear as bottle or calabash gourds. The latter occasionally get
confused with the fruit of the calabash tree.
Bear
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] squash recipes
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:13:54 -0500
Gourds have round stems and the stems in the picture are ribbed (a feature
found in the Cucurbita and a point used in determining species). The squash
in the painting closely resemble the Japanese pumpkin. Other sources have
identified them as squash, so I'm comfortable with the identification.
There is a second rather large pumpkin shaped fruit in the picture, but the
stem is hidden under a plate placed upon it, so it may be either a pumpkin
or a basket gourd.
Still Life with Fruit, which I believe is a Carravagio from roughly the same
period has a more gourd-like fruit which can be identified as a squash.
Bear
> How do you know it is squash? The picture of an edible gourd in _The
> Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_, which is from before Columbus,
> looks rather like a modern squash. Different varieties of C. Pepo
> vary a lot, and I presume the same would be true for the old world
> gourds.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
From: Devra at aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:14:10 EDT
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #59 - Squash Recipe (finally)
>From Pleyn Delit, referenced to Forme of Curye
Take young gowrds; pare hem and kerve hem on peeys; cast hem in gode
broth, and do ther-to a gode party of Oynons mynced. Take Pork soden; grynd
it and alye it her-with and with zolkes of ayren. Do ther-to saffron and
salt, and messe it forth with powder douce.
'Gourds' may mean gourds, squash, pumpkin, or even cucumbers. In this
case, squash seems an appropriate choice, but pumpkin is perfectly feasible.
SQUASH IN BROTH
2 lb squash or pumpkin, peeled, seeded, and cut into chunks (I used yellow
squash, since I detest zuccini)
3-4 onions, minced
3 C meat broth (approx)
1/2--1 C ground, cooked pork
2 egg yolks (or 1 whole egg), beaten
pinch saffron or turmeric
salt to taste
1/8 t each: cinnamon & ginger
1 t sugar
Boil the squash in the broth with the onions. Stir in ground pork &
seasonings when almost done. Take off the fire and beat in egg or egg yolks
just before serving.
A variation offered is that you can sprinkle the saffron threads over the
squash as a decorative touch...she quotes the Menagier that this is called
"fringed with saffron".
I've cooked this for mundane friends. It's a little different, but not
"weird".
Devra the Baker
Devra Langsam
www.poisonpenpress.com
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marrow (Long)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:06:23 -0500
> Yes, the marrow in question should without doubt
> have been that of bone marrow for the recipes
> that were under discussion. Several people had
> responded on the list already that it was bone
> marrow, prior to my posting.
> In my posting, I was just answering the second
> part of the query regarding what a vegetable
> marrow is vis a vis a zuchini in the modern world.
> Yes, of course, modern zucchini or vegetable marrows
> post WWII are new world squashes of the same
> family as pumpkins.
>
> As to when they were first used in the UK, and their
> nomenclature in the OED, I did some further checking.
> Gillian Riley uses the terms "Marrows (zucchini)"
> in her translation of Giacomo Castelvetro's manuscript
> from the early 17th century. (He died in 1616, so the
> mss. dates from between 1614-1616.). Not knowing what
> terms were used in the original Italian text, it's hard to
> say whether Riley used the modern term "marrow" for zucchini
> or used "marrow and "zucchini" when the original term was
> say courgettes. If in fact, Castelvetro was talking about
> growing zucchini or marrow (cucurbita pepo) then this
> would put them into gardens and use shortly after the
> 1600 cutoff. Riley on page 160 indicates that Castelvetro
> meant the lagenaria family in the entry on "pumpkins."
> If this applies also to the entry on "marrows" on page
> 96, then why use the terms "marrows" and "zucchini" when
> the plant being discussed was an old world gourd?
> See The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy for this problem.
"Courgette" is used to describe both gourds and squashes. The same problem
occurs in French. Prior to 1492, it is almost certain that gourds are being
referenced and by 1700 the common usage is for squash, if I understand the
usage correctly.
New World squashes were being grown and sold in Italy by the latter half of
the 16th Century. These are identifiable in various paintings from the
ribbed stalk. Gourds and melons have unribbed stalks.
Gillian Riley could correctly use either gourds or squashes, but unless
there are other indicators in Castelvetro's work, it may not be possible to
determine precisely which he meant. Squashes appear to have supplanted
gourds in the cooking with little change in the immediate recipes.
Renaissance Recipes is not particularly scholarly and does not provide
translation information suggesting that the translations were not done by a
classicist with an eye to the precision of the language.
>
> C. Anne Wilson in Food and Drink in Britain
> also says "Cucumbers, marrows, garden
> asparagus and cardoons (a form of globe artichoke) may have
> been grown in Britain's villa gardens, but they were too
> tender to survive the end of the Roman occupation. (326)
> On page 327, she says "Apicius has several recipes for
> vegetable marrows, boiled, fried or mashed..."
> This would indicate to me that the term "marrow" and
> in the case of Wilson "vegetable marrow " is also
> being used for the old world gourd used in Roman recipes.
> And indeed, the Flower and Rosenbaum edition of Apicius under
> the title The Roman Cookery Book (originally published
> in England in 1958) uses the term "Marrow" for the Latin
> "Cucurbitas" on pp.74-75. This leads one to conclude that
> the same words indicate not one but two, (possibly even three plants
> if one includes the Marrow kale as given below)
> totally different plants.
Below, the OED gives the definition of marrow as "A kind of gourd, the fruit
of Cucurbita ovifera, used as a table vegetable." The OED is saying gourd,
marrow, and squash are synonyms. Scientifically, geographically (origin)
and temporally, they are not. Wilson and Flower and Rosenbaum are being
imprecise by not translating to taxonomic terms.
"Cucurbita ovifera" is more correctly Cucurbita pepo var. ovifera. It
refers specifically to a group of New World ornamentals which Apicius would
never have seen.
The Latin word "curcubita" means "gourd." In Apicius' time it would have
referred to members of genus Langenaria or the bottle gourds. IIRC, the
Tacuinum Sanitatis shows "cucurbita" which are specifically Langenaria.
The taxonomic Cucurbita does not equate to the Latin "cucurbita." Basic
taxonomy was established between the 16th and 18th Centuries and while
taxonomy uses Greek and Latin names, they follow the conventions established
by the taxonomists rather than the conventions of the language. In relation
to gourds, pumpkins, squashes, etc., the family is the gourd family or
Cucurbitaceae, while the genus for New World squashes and pumpkins is
Cucurbita.
>
> Even the OED 2nd online which I have access to gives an
> 2 odd entries as follows:
>
> "marrow-stemmed kale. 1598 Sylvester Du Bartas
> ii. i. i. Eden 537 Their *marrow-boyling loves."
Brassica oleracea var. medulla (IIRC). This particular cabbage has a stalk
with a soft pith which is removed and cooked, I hear stir fry is nice.
Cabbage is easily modifiable and I haven't tried to chase down the age of
this varietal. I don't recall any early references so it may be a variety
developed in the 16th Century.
>
> Under marrow one finds as Bear quoted the 1816 date & quote:
> " vegetable marrow:
> a. A kind of gourd, the fruit of Cucurbita ovifera,
> used as a table vegetable.
> 1816 J. Sabine in Trans. Hort. Soc. (1822) II. 255
> (title of paper) A Description and Account of the Cultivation of a
> Variety of Gourd called Vegetable Marrow."
>
> So is OED talking about a "gourd" or a "squash"?
> If it's just a squash, why the reference to gourd at all?
> Or does OED intermingle squash with gourd and gourd with squash?
Curcubitacea or gourd family. All members can be referred to as gourds or
cucurbits, but the usage is confusing scientifically. Genus and species are
more precise.
Squash specifically refers to members of genus Cucurbita. The word derives
from the Narragansett "askutasquash."
>
> The Middle English Dictionary also
> gives this as one of the definitions for "marrow"
> (a) The kernel or meat of a nut, seed, grain, or fruit;
> the soft inner part of bread contained by the crust, crumb;
> ~ of whete, heart of wheat, fine flour; (b) the heart
> of a tree; also, tender growing shoots of a tree. The quotes
> refer mostly to marrow of wheat.
>
> (I did check the Florilegium entries on marrow and note that
> Bear brought up this nomenclature question back in 1998.)
Yes, and I've spent a lot of time looking at the issue
>
> Having not seen the original recipes being discussed,
> is it beyond the realm of possibility that the mention of
> "marrow" in pre-1600 recipes might have been "marrow kale",
> the old world gourd being called a marrow or more likely
> "bone marrow"?
> If it is a translated recipe and an English author ...?????
>
> Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis
And just to throw a monkey wrench in the works about the Cucurbita, there is
a botanical argument that at least some of the Cucurbita may have originated
in Asia. Since it appears to be tied in with some of the diffusionist
arguments I take it with a grain of salt. As far as I can tell, there is
still no evidence that the Cucurbita were known in Europe before Columbus.
Bear
>
> Terry Decker wrote:>
> > The problem is genus Cucurbita is of New World origin. The
> Cucurbita
> > replaced the Langenaria, or bottle gourds, on European
> tables beginning in
> > the 16th Century.>
> > The OED places the first use of marrow as referring to a
> cucurbit in 1816.
> > Thus pre-17th Century cooking references to marrow are
> almost certainly
> > referring to bone marrow.> Bear
> >
> > >Yes, British vegetable marrows are part of the
> > >marrow/zuchini group of Summer squashes or
> > >cucurbita pepo. Alan Davidson notes that the
> > >British have for some time taken to growing them
> > >to extreme sizes and dimensions for contests and
> > >exhibitions.Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
> > >
> > >Linda Peterson wrote:
> > >> We're discussing marrow and it's use in puddings and
> rissoles. I think
> > >> it's refering to bone marrow, but someone suggests
> squash. Can anyone
> > >> expound on which is most likely and if the brittish
> vegetable marrow is
> > >> really what we think of here as an overgrown zuchinni? Mirhaxa
From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] your assistance needed/gourd drying
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:54:31 -0000
From: CHERYL A ROBERTSON <bcecilia at srv.net>
> In our efforts to do a great garden we grew the best crop of gourds I've
ever seen (several bushels full!!!)
>
> Now I would like to know if anyone knows how to dry these gourds I've
tried the internet (no luck). I've asked relatives that say, "my
grandmother used to do that but don't know how she did it" (thanks much!!!!).
>
> Mst. Cecilia
Depending on type try hanging them in a stocking in a warm dry airy type
place. Tie the stocking between each gourd to prevent them touching.
this works for the hard skin type
vara
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:35:07 -0800
From: Wolfe Evernham <wevernham at socal.rr.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #1132 - 15 msgs
> My newest apprentice, Wolfe von Pater, won honorable
> mention for her entry in the Best Use of Winter
> Vegetables contest also at Altavia Yule. She made
> pumpkin soup from King's Taste, which she served in a
> pumpkin shell soup tureen.
> Huette
The recipe for the "Squash in Potages" modified to be purely vegitarian is as follows. ( I did the modification because our Baroness doesn't do meat or even much dairy.)
Bake 2 smallish pumpkins, 1 delicata squash and 1 golden acorn squash until fairly tender.
Then peal and chunk all 3 types, reserving about a third.
Dump the chunks into your trusty crock pot, add about 2 tablespoons fresh chopped ginger. Also add 3 tablespoons brown sugar, 1 teaspoon each cinnamon, nutmeg and course salt. Cover to the top of your
crock pot with bottled water. Cook overnight or about 10 hours.
Finally puree the contents for your stock. Add the remaining chunks about an hour or two before your ready to serve.
As for the pumpkin tureen, cut open the pumpkin and scoop out the guts, scraping the sides until smooth. Now I poured boiling salt water into mine and put the top back on. I left it for about 30 minutes. I think I should have done a second set of boiling water as the fresh uncooked pumpkin flavor leached into my soup. Which I am told was appealing but unexpected.
Wolfe
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period squash
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 06:00:36 -0600
>How can you tell if they are squash or melons? And if not melons, is
>there a way of telling whether they are c. pepo or c. moschata, which
>most of what we call squash are, or c. lageneria (sp?), white
>flowered gourd, which is old world, hence more likely to be in use in
>Europe that early?
>--
>David/Cariadoc
Ribbed stems. This is one of the taxonomic features of genus Cucurbita.
IIRC, the number of ribs (5 or 7) provides a major division in the genus.
Identifying the species from a painting is more difficult and may be
impossible, but I believe the Pre-Columbian distribution of the various
species makes C. pepo the probable choice.
Gourds, melons, cucumbers, etc. have round, unribbed stems.
Lagenaria is a genus rather than a species, so the gourds would be named L.
siceraria.
Bear
From: "Mercy Neumark" <mneumark at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:34:35 -0800
Subject: [Sca-cooks] re: period squash
>I bought some "flying saucer" squash at the local farmers market last
>summer. They were about 6" - 8" across. This didn't seem too big, as the
>seeds had not matured inside. But they were bitter, bitter, bitter.
>Inedible. Nasty. Awful. I will try again this summer, and maybe save the
>seeds.
You're better off picking up the squash in the autumn (start in September,
depending on your area) when they are in season (I believe squashes are an
autumn harvest NOT a summer). That's probably why it was bitter in taste
(and the seeds not fully mature). Most squash are best at this time. I
know right now in Southern California the squash (many varieties) are all
very tasty now and plentiful!
Side note on naming veggies: I posted awhile back www.territorialseed.com
website...you can check out their online catalog (I believe it is up) and
look over the varieties they sell. You might be able to find the exactname
of the veggies you are looking for...or at least one that might be close.
--Farmer Arte of the green thumb
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 15:57:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] re: period squash
On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Mercy Neumark wrote:
> You're better off picking up the squash in the autumn (start in September,
> depending on your area) when they are in season (I believe squashes are an
> autumn harvest NOT a summer). That's probably whey it was bitter in taste
> (and the seeds not fully mature). Most squash are best at this time. I
> know right now in Southern California the squash (many varieties) are all
> very tasty now and plentiful!
Patty-pan squash is a summer squash, though, and if it's too green when
it's picked it can be bitter. IIRC, a ripe patty-pan is more of a very
pale green rather than white, although there might be white varieties that
I haven't met yet. When ripe you should be able to slice it and eat it raw
like a yellow summer squash, which it does vaguely taste like. I like it
gently fried with a touch of butter, myself.
Winter squashes, 'tis true, are ready much later in the season and last
longer after being picked.
Margaret, who has a black thumb but is very fond of squash
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:52:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] illustrations of lagenaria gourds
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Hm.. this looks very interesting:
http://www.americangourdsociety.org/FAQ/types/chart.html
-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Mon 16 Feb 2004 19:53:33 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] new/old world gourd
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Zucchini is also a New World squash. The pumpkin Platina was referring
To is likely a basket gourd, Lagenaria siceraria.
New World squash came into use in the early 16th Century. The ones I've
seen in 16th Century illustrations ar pumpkin-like or watermelon-like.
Acorn squash, Japanese squash or a small sugar pumpkin are closer to
what is shown than zucchini or butternut squash.
Bear
> I just had this horrible image. A pie cooked with something like avegetable
> marrow cooked with pumpkin pie spices. Or maybe not so horrible. I like
> zucchini bread.
>
> Berelinde
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:33:49 -0600
From: "Terry Decke" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Winter Squash
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> We may have been through thisbefore--I'm not sure--but how can you
> tell they are New World (presumably C. Pepo) rather than Lagenaria?
> Do the paintings show the color of the blossoms?
The Curcubits (New World Squashes) have heavy ridged stems (five or seven
ribs, IIRC), while he gourds and the melons have smoother, almost round
stems. The botanical drawings in various herbals and some of the highly
detailed Renaissance paintings show the difference.
It might also be possible to identify them by flower or leaf, but it's
Not my area of expertise and I tend to find them in paintings which don't
show those. I obviously need to spend more time digging through herbals.
> Also, while I agree that Lagenaria is a likely guess for the medieval
> "pumpkin," do we know that it ismore than a guess? _The Four Seasons
> of the House of Cerruti_ and related books do have pictures.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
I don't think there is any definitive proof. Linguistic evidence and
artistic evidence suggest the transference, but I haven't encountered a
full reasoned exposition.
Bear
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:00:10 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Winter Squash
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
The green skinned pumpkins you are describing are often called Japanese
pumpkins (because several new varieties have been produced in Japan). They
are New World squashes related to the acorn squash. Flesh color tends to be
yellow to orange, but some varietals have a light green flesh. They appear
in some late period paintings, most notably Campi's "The Fruit Seller."
The painting is used as an illustration in a fairly recent edition of
Elizabeth David's work on Italian cooking and they are identified as marrows
in the caption of a detail illustration. I suspect the term "marrow" is
being generalized in this case as the shape is wrong for Cucurbita
ovifera.
If you can't find these big green squashes, I would suggest substituting
acorn squash.
Bear
> The orangy pumpkin squash is a new world squash, but in many parts of the
> world they have a similar type squash with a greenish skin that is also
> called pumpkin. Some types are a richer colour of orange inside and a much
> richer flavor. You can usually find these types of squashes in a latino
> store or international market, either whole or cut into pieces as they can
> get to be quite large. There is one or two types with a slightly different
> skin colour that is more yellow inside and less flavorful than even our
> orange pumpkin. Probably Bear will give a rundown on all the name and place
> facts.
> Olwen
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:30:00 -0500
From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period Gourds
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
We have in the past discussed what the actual period gourds that would
have been used in the recipes for gourds and their lack of
availability.
I am uncertain whether the conclusion was reached on this list or
elsewhere - but I believe that the gourd that would have been used is
commonly known as the Chinese Bottle Gourd.
Many have lamented it's lack of availability here in the US, so I
thought I would post my finding here. Apparently it is relatively
easy to grow! I found a source for seeds in my garden planning and if
anyone else might desire to grow them here is the link:
http://www.evergreenseeds.com/evergreenseeds/calgouropo.html
Serena da Riva
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:52:15 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Gourds
To: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>, "Cooks within the SCA"
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> We have in the past discussed what the actual period gourds that would
> have been used in the recipies for gourds and their lack of availablity.
>
> I am uncertain whether the conclusion was reached on this list or
> elsewhere - but I believe that the gourd that would have been used is
> commonly known as the Chinese Bottle Gourd.
> Serena da Riva
Rather than the Chinese Bottle Gourd, I would suggest the Cucuzzi or White
Flower Gourd.
http://onaleeseeds.scifstore.com/module/store/viewentry/8138/
The shapes of gourds I have seen pictured in period sources are dippers,
cylindricals, and basket (bushel). The following site provides some
pictures (not as good as I would like, but useable).
For a little artistic look at some of the gourds, try this site discussing
the botanical bounty of Caravagio. The illustrations are not all by
Caravagio, but the painters are identified in the text.
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/caravaggio/caravaggio_l.html
A little more help identifying gourds and squashes:
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1180.htm
Bear
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:22:47 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Gourds
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
And there's this presentation too from the same site--
Erotic Use of Lagenaria in Renaissance Art
<http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/lagenaria_reprint.pdf>;
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/newCrops.html#projects
Johnnae
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:18:18 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkin
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
If you are working from Apicius, the pumpkin will actually be a bottle
gourd, or possibly, a melon (pepo in Latin, now used as the genus name for
squashes) similar to a honeydew. The New World squash we call pumpkin gets
to Europe about 1000 plus years after the recipes were first collected.
Modern cooks tend to use squash rather than trying to locate gourds. If you
choose to use New World pumpkin a small variety around two pounds is
probably close to those common in the 16th Century.
Bear
> I am working on a feast menu for January based mostly on Apicius.
> There are several recipes calling for Pumpkin -
>
> Just what sort of pumpkin should I be looking for? Big Orange
> Jack-o-lantern just seems wrong. Isn’t it a new world thing?
>
> Vitha
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:12:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkins
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Speaking of pumpkins, Martha Stewart featured 300 varieties
of pumpkins and squash today on her show. They came from:
The Great Pumpkin Patch
The Great Pumpkin Patch is located two miles south and 1/2 mile west of
the village of Arthur (pop. 2200). The 63-acre pumpkin patch is in the
middle of the largest Amish settlement in Illinois. The village of
Arthur and the neighboring towns offer a variety of shops, dining and
hotels.
Phone: 217-543-2394
For maps and directions, go to www.thegreatpumpkinpatch.biz
They are also the feature article beginning on page 128 in the October
2005 issue of Martha Stewart Living.
They say "If you are interested in ordering seeds, please visit
www.revolutionseeds.com."
This farm is located about 15 miles miles west of where I grew up
in central Illinois by the way.
Johnnae
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:49:36 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkin
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> I am working on a feast menu for January based mostly on Apicius.
>> There are several recipes calling for Pumpkin -
>>
>> Just what sort of pumpkin should I be looking for? Big Orange
>> Jack-o-lantern just seems wrong. Isnt' it a new world thing?
>
> All of our standard pumpkins and squashes are New World. There are old
> world vegetables that look rather like some squashes. At least some of
> them are Lagenaria Siceria (sp?), the white flowered gourd, which is still
> used in modern Chinese cooking and I think perhaps in Italian.
>
> What translation of Apicius are you using? The fact that it translates the
> relevant word as "pumpkin" is at least some evidence that it may be an
> unreliable one. I gather that Vehling is about the least reliable
> of the translations, Flowers and Rosenbaum the best.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
Vehling translates Apicius Book III (the Gardener) Chapter IV as being
"Pumpkins, Squashes." Flower and Rosenbaum translate the same section as
"Marrow." The Latin text is "Cucurbitas." Vehling appears to be using the
Linnean taxonomy to translate the word, while Flower and Rosenbaum are using
a term in English usage specifically for some New World squashes. Neither
of these is a correct translation given the history of the genera Curcubita
and Lagenaria. I would suggest that the Mary Ella Milham translation might
be the best for precisely (as possible) determining the translation
from the Latin.
According to my notes, in Latin "cucurbita" can be generally used to
describe gourds, cucumbers and melons, in the specific it tends to refer to
gourds, "cucumis" to cucumbers, and "pepon" to melons. The precise usage
may vary according to the source.
Looking at the recipes, they appear to be for some variety of Lagenaria
siceraria AKA bottle gourd, calabash, birdhouse gourd, white flowered gourd,
basket gourd, etc.
Bear
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:17:13 -0500
From: "margaret" <m.p.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkins?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Opo (also referred to a a long calabash) is definitely a bottle gourd. It
may also appear in Italian markets as cucuzza. Bottle gourds do vary
widely in size, shape and color but are one species.
Bear
> Our (Betty and mine) current guess is the White Flowered Gourd, Laganaria
> Sicreia (sp?). There is a gourd called "Opo" available in Chinese grocery
> stores which we think is probably Laganaria, but we aren't sure.
>
> The opo we have cooked tasted rather like zuccini. But most of our
> familiar gourds and pumpkins are a single species--C. Pepo--so it may well
> be that different varieties of Laganaria differ just as they do.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:06:04 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The pumpkin/gourd debate (again) from
theapothecary's workshop
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
All members of genus Cucurbita are of North American origin, including those
found in Asia and Africa. Gourds and melons are of Old World origin. A
quick way to tell the difference is to look at the stem. Cucurbita have
deeply ribbed stems, the gourds and melons have round, relatively
smooth, lightly veined stems.
Bear
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:53:14 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The pumpkin/gourd debate (again) from
theapothecary'sworkshop
To: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>, "Cooks within the SCA"
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> All members of genus Cucurbita are of North American origin, including
>> those found in Asia and Africa. Gourds and melons are of Old World origin.
>> A quick way to tell the difference is to look at the stem. Cucurbita have
>> deeply ribbed stems, the gourds and melons have round, relatively
>> smooth, lightly veined stems.
>
> Now, I'm confused. Cucumbers are genus Cucurbita, but their presence in
> Europe pre-dates any significant contact between Old and New Worlds. Do
> we have an explanation for that? I didn't find one anywhere.
> --
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Cucumbers are genus Cucumis, Squashes, gourds, melons, watermelons,
cucumbers and luffas are all members of the family Cucurbitaceae.
Bear
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:19:47 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] something about Gourds
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,
MedievalGardening at yahoogroups.com
We talked about gourds at one point, and I think it was on one of these
lists I said that I would try to get the stuff about them from the 9th
century text. Here it is:
Gourds, from Walafrid Strabo's _Hortulus_
The gourd too aspires to grow high from a humble beginning...
... Even so my gourd, rising on brittle stems,
Welcomes the props that are put there for it, hugging the alder
in the grip of its curly tentacles. It's so determined
Not to be wrenched away by even the wildest storm
That it thrusts out a cable at every joint and, each
Extending two strands, siezes support on this side and that.
It reminds me too of girls spinning, when they draw
The soft heaps of wool to their spindles, and in great twists
Measure off the endless thread into trim balls-- Just so
The wandering thongs of my gourd twist and cling; quick
To wrap their coils round the smooth sticks set as ladders for them
They learn to use borrowed strength and, with a swimmer's thrust,
Climb the steep rooms of the covered cloister. Oh, who now
Can praise as he ought the fruits that hang from its branches
Everywhere? They are as perfectly formed from every angle
As a piece of wood that is turned and shaved on a lathe.
They hang on a slender stalk and swell from a long, thin neck
Into huge bodies, their great mass broadening at the flanks.
They are all belly, all pauch. Inside
That cavernous prison are nourished, each in its place, the many
Seeds that promise another harvest as good as this one.
At the approach of tardy autumn, while yet they are tender
And before the hidden moisture that is sealed inside them dries
To leave but the withered shells, we often see the fruit
Handed round among the good things of the dinner-table
and soaking up the rich fat in a piping-dish;
For often these juicy slices, served as dessert,
Delight the palate. But if you let the gourd stay
Enjoying the summer sun on its parent tree and only
Set your blade to it late in the year, then after scooping
The flesh from its ponderous belly and shaving the sides
On a nimble lathe, you can put it to practical use as a vessel.
A pint this mighty paunch will sometimes hold, sometimes
Half a gallon or more; and if you seal your jar
With gummy pitch it will keep wine good for many a day.
Translated by Raef Payne. (Pittsurgh, PA: Hunt Botanical Library, 1966)
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:37:52 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Butternut squash?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:
>> Are butternut squash period? When I see recipes for squash tart,
>> are we talking about summer squash or winter squash?
>
> Neither, actually, in most cases: the period 'squash' or 'gourd' is
> the white-flowered lagenaria gourd... (bottle gourds) from africa
I have bought this variety of gourd from local Asian grocery stores.
The taste is rather like summer squash, though the texture is firmer. I
think summer squash would be a reasonable substitute (peel skin and
remove seeds).
--
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 20:41:10 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Butternut squash?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Are butternut squash period? When I see recipes for squash tart,
> are we talking about summer squash or winter squash?
>
> Grace
The modern butternut squash is a hybrid developed by Antoine-Auguste
Parmentier in the 18th Century, IIRC. Parmentier is also the fellow who
gave you the modern commercial strawberry (a cross between Chilean and
Virginia strawberries) and got France into potatoes as a food crop.
A little postscript, prior to 1492, squash refers to bottle gourds. After
1492, squash can be interpreted as bottle gourds or New World squash. Based
on Leonard Fuchs's Herbal of 1543, New World squash were fairly widely
spread around the Mediterranean by mid-century and they appear in a number
of Italian paintings before the end of the century.
Bear
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:28:41 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cookbook - need some help
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
New World squashes appear in Leonard Fuch's herbal of 1541. They were
apparently in use in Europe for some time before that. There is no evidence
for genus Cucurbita being known in the Old World before Columbus. Cucumis
and Citrullus (cucumbers and melons, which are a little mixed in taxonomy)
are both Old World. The Langenaria, the Old World bottle gourds which are
the Medieval squashes and pumpkins, are found in both the New and Old
Worlds.
Bear
<<< That goes into more detail on the origins of the various species in the
Gourd family. Yet it does not get into when the New World Gourds were
introduced into Europe.
Euriol >>>
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:49:00 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squashes/pumpkins
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
They are a variety of bottle gourd (Langenaria siceraria). There are a wide
range of sizes, and colors in both the gourds and the squashes, so they
often resemble one another. Since the New World squashes don't show up in
Europe until after Columbus, if the source predates 1500, you can safely
assume that it's a gourd.
After 1600, you can probably assume it's a squash. The 16th Century is the
real headache, because there is no linguistic differentiation between the
gourds and the squashes. Pictorally, look at the stem. Cucurbita have
deeply ribbed stellate stems. Langenaria have relatively smooth round stems
(if you feel them they have a slightly rough texure with several very fine
and almost unoticeable ribs).
Bear
<<< I've wondered about the pumpkin/squash/gourd/marrow thing, too.
In the Viennese codex "Tacunium Sanitatis," a 13th?-14th? century health
manual, there is an illustration of people harvesting what the translator
calls "pumpkins." The pumpkins look like hubbard squashes. The particular
translation I have access to is called "The Four Seasons of the House of
Cerruti," and I believe does not include the entire codex.
Any nutritional anthropologists out there?
Talana >>>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:35:04 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squashes/pumpkins Fuchs
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
>> New World squashes appear in Leonard Fuch's herbal of 1541.Do you
>> mean the chapter "Von K?rbs" in Fuchs's New Kre?terbuch 1543?
>
> http://imgbase-scd-ulp.u-strasbg.fr/displayimage.php?album=24&;pos=363
>
> The Latin herbal used to be online as well at Koblenz Library but
> it seems to be no longer there.
>
> E.
I tend to work with a webbed version of the plates from the 1545
edition at
http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical/fuchs/
The first reference I have to publication lists 1541, but the 1542
and 1543 editions seem to be more common.
Pages 209-211 list Cucurbita major, Cucurbita minor and Cucurbita
oblonga. These are all gourds.
Pages 401-406 list Cucumis sativus vulgaris, Cucumis turkicus, Cucumer
marinus, Cucumer citrullus, Pepones and Cucumer sylvestris. Cucumis sativus
vulgaris is the common cucumber. Cucumis turkicus and Cucumer marinus show
the deeper ribbing on some of the stems that suggest they are actually New
World squashes. The naming conventions suggest that Cucumer citrullus and
Pepones are melons. Cucumer sylvestris appears to be related to the
cucumber and I wonder if it may not be Ecuballium elaterium (squirting
cucumber).
Relating a New World squash to Turkey would be consistent with the
nomenclature relating maize to Turkey and capsicum peppers to India.
Bear
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:06:14 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Preserving pumpkin
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On 7/19/08, Jennifer Carlson <talana1 at hotmail.com> wrote:
<<< Stefan asked how to preserve pumpkin.
A traditional method is to cut the thing up, thread the pieces on string,
and hang to dry. >>>
A 16th c. Spanish agricultural manual by Gabriel Alonso de Herrera says that gourds can be preserved by slicing them and drying them in the sun.
--
Brighid ni Chiarain
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 09:28:32 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow?
<<< So you could use zucchini in any medieval recipe that calls for
young gourd. But zucchini is much wetter than white flower gourd, so
you may have to adjust the cooking time and the amount of liquid in
the recipe. >>>
A lot of different varieties of our modern squash are all the same
species-C. Pepo-and the same seems to be true of C. Lagenaria
(white-flowered gourd aka ... ). _Four Seasons of the House of
Cerruti_, which is an illustrated text of the _Tacinum Sanitatis_,
shows period edible gourds which don't look all that much like the
Opo we've bought. I found a page online that shows a whole lot of
varieties of what they describe as "Calabash Gourd (OPO Gourd, Bottle
Gourd)," very different looking:
http://www.evergreenseeds.com/calgouropo.html
So although the opo gourds in the local grocery stores may be the
best guess we have at period gourds, I don't think one can be sure
that they represent the same variety, or the same detailed
characteristics, as the gourds in period cookbooks.
--
David/Cariadoc
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:31:17 -0700
From: K C Francis <katiracook at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow?
I have grown Zucchetta Rampicante and this year I have Zucchetta Trombolina. They are a climbing summer squash that produces a long skinny, pale green fruit. The seeds are only in the bulbish end. They cook up like zucchini, but do NOT get mushy. Mild flavor, some say artichoke like. The picture shows a VERY large one. I harvest them at about 10-12 inches, then chop and saute them.
Check out: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/udine/90-01.html for pictures of Lagenaria siceraria (Molina) Standley var. longissima, Cucuzzi, bottle gourd, which I have also grown, but I prefer the zucchetta for my own table.
Katira al-Maghrebiyya
From: johnnae at mac.com:
<<< Zucchini, as grown in the USA today, are summer squash and would have
come to the Old World after 1492.
What was already in the Old World was "The white-flowering /zucca
rampicante/ (vining gourd) or /zucca a tromba/ (trumpet gourd) is an Old
World cucurbit (/Lagenaria siceraria/) that has been grown in the
Mediterranean region since ancient times. The edible baby gourds, shown
here, were known as /zucchette/ or /zucchini/ in Italian and were the
breeding model for the New World squash grown today under the name of
zucchini." The squash bore a resemblance to other cucurbits known to the
Romans, although they belonged to other plant species. It received the
name of /calabash/ and a false identity as /zucco/ from Syria. From this
comes its present-day name, zucchini.
See Maynard, David and Donald N. Maynard. "Squash and Gourds."
_Encyclopedia of Food and Culture_. >>>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:09:24 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera
To start, Mistress Helewyse has a paper that details
new world vegetables in 16th century Italian cookery and cookbooks.
A time for change: new world foods in old world menus
Taught at Pennsic 35 by Mistress Helewyse de Birkestad,
The paper is online on her website under classes.
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/#Classes
(BTW, Mistress Helewyse is cooking an Italian Feast tomorrow. Menu is
posted here- http://www.catteden.com/pouncefeast&;food.html )
Another way to look at the question of squashes and gourds is through
art.
Through the years we've played the 'id that fruit or vegie game in
this painting' a number of times and I've tried to save those posts.
Here are some sites we've uncovered that provide images of squashes or gourds.
http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agricultures/past/fall2008/Features/Feature%205.html
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/caravaggio/caravaggio_l.html
Early Evidence for the Culinary Use of Squash Flowers in Italy
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&;q=cache:LfO8qEW9hm0J:www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/squashflowers.pdf+Jules+Janick+purdue+squash&hl=en&gl=us
[this is the site with this fun paper
Erotic Use of Lagenaria in Renaissance Art <http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/lagenaria_reprint.pdf
]
Purdue has their History of Horticulture class online. This slide is
quite good as it shows
centers for crop origins. http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/history/lecture05/lec05.html
Also see this database
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/iconography/
You might find http://www.cucurbit.org/ also to be useful or fun.
For a circa 1480's Old World Gourd see
http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=MA00674A&;ext=1
Johnnae
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:57:24 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera
<<< Early Evidence for the Culinary Use of Squash Flowers in Italy
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&;q=cache:LfO8qEW9hm0J:www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/squashflowers.pdf+Jules+Janick+purdue+squash&hl=en&gl=us >>>
As far as I can see, the buds are closed, so you cannot see the color of
the flowers--white or yellow. So how can one tell if they are C. Pepo (New
World) or lageneria (Old World)? Is the shape of the buds different?
--
David/Cariadoc
----------------------
In this case, the ovaries are ribbed which is indicative of genus Cucurbita.
Genus Lagenaria tend toward smooth ovaries. If you can get a close look at
the stem, most, if not all, Cucrbita have a deeply ribbed stem. Lagenaria
(at least all those I have observed) have a round, smooth stem with fine
almost thread-like ribs.
I'm more taken aback by their identification of the big yellow cucurbit in
the middle of the painting as being C. pepo. I don't know how they are
making the taxonomic differentiation. In my view, it could be either a
basket gourd or a pumpkin.
Bear
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:09:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera
Professor Janick is the author of such papers as:
Janick, J. (2008). Giant pumpkins: Genetics and cultural
breakthroughs. Chronica Horticulturae, 48(3), 16-17.
Janick, J., & H. S. Paris (2008). Cucurbitaccae 2008 (33-41). INRA.
Janick, J., S. S. Renner, J. Scarborough, H. Schaefer, & H. S. Paris
(2008). Cucurbitacceae (273-280). INRA.
Janick, J. (2008). Reflections on linguistics as an aid to taxonomical
identification of ancient Mediterranean cucurbit. Curcurbitacceae 2008
(43-51). INRA.
Janick, J., & R. E. Paull (2008). Encylopedia of Fruits & Nuts. CAB
International. This was just reviewed in the most recent issue of
Gastronomica.
By all accounts he's considered to be an expert on the subject. I
suspect he may well be able to look at a flower and tell if they are
squash or not.
You could of course write the authors at Purdue University and ask.
They can be contacted at janick at purdue.edu.
Johnnae
On Sep 18, 2009, at 5:58 PM, David Friedman wrote:
<<< Early Evidence for the Culinary Use of Squash Flowers in Italy
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&;q=cache:LfO8qEW9hm0J:www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/squashflowers.pdf+Jules+Janick+purdue+squash&hl=en&gl=us >>>
As far as I can see, the buds are closed, so you cannot see the
color of the flowers--white or yellow. So how can one tell if they
are C. Pepo (New World) or lageneria (Old World)? Is the shape of
the buds different?
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 22:29:54 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera
Scappi is about 1570 and New World cucurbits appear in Fuchs' herbal of
1540, so squash were known and probably eaten in Scappi's day.
As to Scappi, common squash is probably a bottle gourd. Hairy squash is
almost certainly one of the hairy gourds or loofah. The description of
Savona squash in Scappi makes me think it is a gourd. The instructions for
storing Turkish squash, the instructions for harvesting and the name make me
think this is a New World cucurbit, specifically a variant of C. pepo.
Genoese is completely open to question. There is not enough information to
determine whether this is a squash or a gourd.
Bear
<<< On one of the local culinary lists I'm on a discussion came up about
squash, whether they were found and used in pre-1700 Europe, and if so,
what breeds. I've been going through not only all of the great recipes in
Scappi, but the extremely useful indexes as well.
In the index listing all ingredients by type squash are listed under
vegetables and herbs above ground: Squash (common, hairy, Genoese, Savona,
Turkish). But I don't know what any currently available equivalents might
be, any thoughts on what appropriate substitutions might be?
As for how they would have been cooked in renaissance Italy, listings for
squash in the index under preparations include: squash, in a think soup in
lent, in a thick soup with almond milk, in a think soup with meat broth,
stuffed in lent, squash and onions in a thick soup, stuffed boiled and
oven baked, fried, tourte without cheese, and rinds.
Sounds like some potential ideas for a wonderful fall meal, vegan or
carnivore options as well. :)
Raffaella >>>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 04:45:14 +0000
From: CHARLES POTTER <basiliusphocas at hotmail.com>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera
Scully translates the native zucca as pumpkin which is wrong, it should be translated as gourd. Many times they will call New World zucca as zucca from India or Turkey. All squashes (yellow flower) are New World and the zucca they had in period are gourds (white flower). They have both in the Opera as Scappi will tell you. This is a very confusing area for us in SCA because the scientists that work with taxanomic classification of squashes and gourds have had a tough time with this as well.
Basilius Phocas
<<< I'm also not sure which edition the Scappi translation is based on, but I do have some translation questions, here and there. :)
It looks like the name Scully is translating from his source document as "squash" is zucca, and in one case he says "the name of a dish is Spanish, deriving from carabazza, the spanish word for Scappi's zucca, Squash." He also says the qualifier "local" identifies crook-neck squash.
There are 4 "squash" recipes in a row in book II, from 218-221, and most of them are for soups.
Raffaella >>>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:40:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera
Rafaella wrote:
It looks like the name Scully is translating from his source document
as "squash" is zucca, and in one case he says "the name of a dish is
Spanish, deriving from carabazza, the spanish word for Scappi's zucca,
Squash." He also says the qualifier "local" identifies crook-neck
squash.
Johnnae already pointed out my class on new world foods in old world menus, which is also in the florilegium. And the fantastic Villa Farnesia paper, and a heck of a lot more sources I have to now bookmark.
This particular translation was another place I had an issue with Scully. In the original Italian it is easy to tell which is which, they are given as Zucche nostrale and Zucche Turchesche - or to put it another way, Gourds (most likely snake gourd which are still grown and eaten in Italy), i.e. old world squash, and Turkish or new world squash, which scappi himself then says "and you can make any dishes of these that you make of the gourd". Which pretty much gives you a whole lot of leeway. The images from the Villa Farnesia are absolutly one of the biggest indicators that squash travelled quickly and took over quickly. The agricultural information (translation given in the above mentioned class) also seems to indicate that new world squash were quickly adopted, as they grow pretty much the same and are used in almost exactly the same way as old world squash.
Book 2 - meats
recipe 218 - per far minestra di zucche nostrali con brodo di carne in diversi modi - To cook a dish of gourds with broth in many ways
Recipe 219 - per far minestra di zucche, & cipolle in diversi modi, dal vulgo detto carabazzata - to make a dish of gourds and onions in many ways, commonly called carabazzata
Recipe 220 - per far minestra di zucche truchesche - to make a dish of Turkish squash (aka new world squash)
Recipe 221 - Per alessare and cuocere in forno le sopradette zucche intere, ripiene in diversi compositioni - to boil and cook in the oven the above said whole squash (turkish) filled with various stuffings (this is a fun recipe a pumpkin is hollowed out and stuffed with meat and sausage meat then baked).
The big one for me is recipe 220 which gives the description of squash as follows:
Take squash in it's season which starts in October and lasts all through April.
Book 3 lenten recipes
Recipe 225 - Per far minestra di zucche nostrali in giorno di quaresima - to make a dish of our gourds in lenten days ( also includes Marine squash which are New world)
Recipe 226 - Per empire zuchhe nostrali in giorno quaresimale - to stuff our gourds in lenten days
Recipe 227 - per friggere zucche nostrali - to fry our gourds (also references zuchhe marina, which has to be parboiled before frying).
Recipe 228 - per cuocere scorze di zucche dal vulgo dette Zazzere - to cook skins of gourds, commonly called Zazzere.
For this reason I cooked butternut squash this weekend for the feast I did. Parboiled for 5 minutes and then fried on a griddle with lots of butter. Oddly enough a lot of people wanted the recipe claiming it was the best squash they'd ever eaten, don't know why something so simple appears to be so popular. But there you go.
Helewyse
still not unpacked yet,
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 05:47:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Squash was Re:Helewyse's latest feast
I suggest that "Helewyse's latest feast" would have been a more accurate and less alarming subject line.
Also,
I didn't follow all of the discussion of Squash in Scappi. Do we know
that New World squash was cooked in the fashion Helewyse describes?
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
============================
The mode of preparation is mostly taken from the lean day recipe for squash and also from comments in Castelvetro and also Mattioli (full refs below). Essentially I left out the flouring bit, due to feast mass production considerations and substituted butter for oil as it wasn't a feast day.
From Mattioli we have (emphasis mine in bold):
Gourds
One can find other than these of ours (gourds) in Italy those that are served all the winter, of various sizes, shapes and colors. These new (as they are called) came from the Indians; some of these, called sea gourds, have been in Italy for longer. All of them, however have the shape of a melon, but some are very large, others large, others small, and others medium, some are segmented like melons, and others have ribs inside the floret, they are borne on stalks, well lifted and distinct, and a strong shoot, and several are round, others flat, others tending towards long, of various colors, the which of them there are truly so many of note today that I cannot possible describe them all. All these species produce leaves somewhat larger than ours, coarser, and ragged like a hand, attached by large and rigid stems, and of a similar form to living leaves. They have tendrils which are large, sharp, angled and hairy, which slide across the ground for a long
way and vine (like beans) up into trees, hedges and trellises like ours. The flowers are similar to the lily, only yellow and much larger. One harvests them in the autumn and serves them then all the winter in food. They produce large seeds, like almonds, flat and white, and within is a meat which is sweet and gentle. They taste sweet and not bland like ours, but they are tasty without seasoning them with condiments and aromatic spices.
Excerpted from Castelvetro section on pumpkins:
The small ones can be cooked whole in salted water then cut up and put in a covered pot with melted butter and salt and pepper and left to soak up the flavors. Everyone enjoys them this way.
From Scappi,
To make various dishes with Turkish squash, Chapter 220, 2nd book, Scappi
Take the Turkish squash in its season, which begins in the month of October and lasts through all of April, and clean it of the skin and of the innards. Cut it into pieces and parboil it, when it is parboiled chop it with a knife and put it to cook in good meat broth, thicken and enrich it with grated cheese and beaten eggs. One can also prepare it with onions in the same way that one prepares our squash as described above. Be aware that if the squash is firm it will be much better, and to store them one should put them in a dry and airy place. And they (the squash) should not have any holes in them anywhere, because air will lead them to putrefaction. In this way one can make dried skin of Savonese squash, after they are parboiled in hot water and left to soak in cold water.
To fry our gourds Chapter 227, 3rd book, Scappi
Take the tender smaller gourds, peel them gently then cut in slices across, and when they are cut sprinkle with fine salt and let them rest for a bit above a table. Press out carefully all the water and flour with fine flour and fry in oil and serve hot thus dry with sugar above or with pounded verjuice grapes, with sprouts of fresh fennel, a clove of garlic and bepper, and if you don't have new verjuice used aged. One can also cover them with a sauce made of basil shoots, and sweet fennel and walnuts tempered with verjuice. In this way you can make the marine squash (new world) after they are cut in thin slices and parboiled in water and salt.
Mattioli, P., I discorsi di M. Pietro Andrea Matthioli,... nei sei libbri di Pedacio Dioscoride Anazarbeo della materia medicinale. 1597: Felice Valgrisio.
Castelvetro, G., Brieve racconto di tutte le radici, di tutte l'erbe e di tutti i frutti che crudi o cotti in Italia si mangiano. 1614, In Londra, M.DC.XIV.
Scappi, B., Opera : (dell' arte del cucinare). Reprint. First published: Opera di M. Bartolomeo Scappi. Venice, 1570. 1981, Bologna: Arnaldo Forni. [20], 436 leaves [ca. 888 p.], [28] p. of plates.
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:18:55 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] So, just what was a Pumpion?
'Tis the season... for this to come around again on the gee-tar:
On our local cooks list, people have been asking for both period and
non-period pumpkin recipes.
According to my limited research, the first documented written use of
the word "pumpion" was in 1526, although i don't known where.
Apparently it was first defined in the 1545 edition of Sir Thomas
Elyot's dictionary as "a kynde of Melones called Pompones"
The word itself, now "pumpkin", comes from Middle French "pompon" and
"popon", from Old French "pepon", from Latin "pepo", referring to a
kind of melon, from the Greek "pepon" meaning "ripe".
It remains unclear to me if in the 16th c. "pompion" (as i've seen it
written) refers to a melon, a round gourd, or to some New World
squash.
Helewyse has demonstrated that New World squashes were used in Italy
in the 16th century, but i don't known about elsewhere, or whether
gourds and squashes were used interchangeably, or if there was a
preference for one over the other, and which kinds of squashes were
known in Europe.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:25:12 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] So, just what was a Pumpion?
And the Florilegium doesn't satisfy their requests for recipes?
I think spelling varies as does what plant was being referred to at
any one time or in any one place.
------
OED
defines it as "The large fruit of a cucurbitaceous plant (Cucurbita
Pepo); a pumpkin; also the plant itself.
1545 Elyot Dict., Pepo,..a kynde of Melones called Pompones
1555 Eden Decades 127 Gourdes melones cucumers pompons citrons.
1587 Harrison England ii. xiii. (1877) i. 259 An acre of
ground..whereon to set cabbages..pompons, or such like stuffe.
1601 Holland Pliny xix. v. 14 Now when they exceed in greatnes, they
be called Pepones, i. Melons or Pompons.
1573 Tusser Husb. (1878) 95 Herbes and rootes to boile or to butter...
Pompions in May.
------------
Florio in 1598's A vvorlde of wordes, or Most copious, and exact
dictionarie in Italian and English, collected by Iohn Florio, includes: Zucca,
a pompion, or a gourd. Also a salt-boxe, for that in Italie they vse
to make of dried gourds saltboxes, bottles, or lanternes. It is also
taken metapho|ricallie for a mans pate, head, braine, skonce, or nole,
or skull. Also a kinde of wyne-measure. Also a skull, a head|piece, or
steele-cap. Also a kinde of drinking glasse.
Zuccata, a meate made of pompions or gourds. Also a flim-flam tale, a tale
without ryme or reason, or without head or foote.
Zucchetta, a little gourd or pompion.
-----
The herball or Generall historie of plantes. Gathered by Iohn Gerarde
of London Master in Chirurgerie very much enlarged and amended by
Thomas Iohnson citizen and apothecarye of London.
Gerard, John, 1545-1612., Johnson, Thomas, d. 1644,,
has this chapter. In part:
CHAP. 345. Of Melons, or Pompions
"1 Pepo maximus oblongus. The great long Pompion.
2 Pepo maximus rotundus. The great round Pompion.
3 Of this kinde there is also another Pompion like vnto the former in
rough stalkes, and in gashed and nicked leaues: the floure is also
great and yellow, like those of the others: the fruit is of a great
bignesse, whose barke is full of little bunnies or hillie welts, as is
the rinde of the Citron, which is in like manner yellow when it is ripe.
4 The fourth Pompion doth very much differ from the others in form:
the stalks, leaues, and floures are like those of the rest: but the
fruit is not long or round, but altogether broad, and in a manner flat
like vnto a shield or buckler; thicker in the middle, thinner in the
compasse, and curled or ??? in certaine places about the edges,
like the rugged or vneuen barke of the Pomecitron; the which rinde is
very soft, thin, and white: the meat within is meetely hard and
dureable. The seed is greater than that of the common Cucumber, in
forme and colour all one.
? Macocks Virginiani, sive Pepo Virginianus. The Virginian Macocke,
or Pompion.
? This hath rough cornered straked trailing branches proceeding from
the roor, eight or nine foot long, or longer, and those againe diuided
into other branches of a blackish greene colour, trailing, ???,
or running alongst the earth, couering a great deale of ground,
sending forth broad ??? rough leaues, on great grosse, long,
rough, hairy foot-stalks, like and fully as big as the leaues of the
common Pompion, with clasping tendrels and great broad shriueled
yellow floures also like those of the common Pompion: the fruit
succeedeth, growing a longst the stalkes, commonly not neere the root,
but towards the vpper part or toppes of the branches, somewhat round,
not exten|ding in length, but flat like a bowle, but not so bigge as
an ordinarie bowle, beeing seldome foure inches broad, and three
inches long, of a blackish greene colour when it is ripe. The sub|
stance or eatable part is of a yellowish white colour, containing in
the middest a great deale of pulpe or soft matter, wherein the seed
lyeth in certaine rowes also, like the common Pompion, but smaller.
The root is made of many whitish branches, creeping far abroad in the
earth, and perish at the first approch of Winter.
3 Pepo maximus compressus. The great flat bottommed Pompion.
4 Pepo maximus clypeatus. The great buckler Pompion.
5 Pepo Indicus minor rotundus. The small round Indian Pompion.
6 Pepo Indicus angulosus. The cornered Indian Pompion.
-----------------------
Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America states
"Pumpkins The pumpkin (Curcurbita pepo) is thought to have originated
in Central America about 5500 b.c.e. It was widely disseminated
throughout North America in pre-Columbian times. With its thick shell
and solid flesh, the pumpkin can be stored through the winter. Native
Americans also preserved pumpkin by slicing and drying it.
Pumpkins were introduced into the Old World shortly after the first
European explorations of the New World. They are mentioned in European
works beginning in 1536. They were originally called pompions, or
large gourds, and they were cultivated in England by the mid-sixteenth
century, well before Thomas Hariot mentioned them in his Briefe and
True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia (1588). Hence, English
colonists were familiar with pumpkins prior to settling in North
America and immediately began growing them when they arrived. Although
pumpkins are related to squash, American colonists carefully
distinguished between them and used them culinarily in different ways."
Recipewise
44 - Doce de ab?bora. from A Treatise of Portuguese Cuisine from the
15th Century
(Portugal, 15th c. - Fernanda Gomes, trans.)
The original source can be found at Lochac Cooks' Guild Website
begins in translation "Pumpkin Compote. Obtain a very hard pumpkin,
and cut it into pieces, whatever size and shape you like, peeling and
cleaning them very well inside."
-----------
Pompion seeds or kernels are called for in the 1659 The Queens closet
opened.
-----
The queen-like closet; By Hannah Wolley or Woolley. 1670.
XCIII. To make a Pompion-Pie.
Having your Paste ready in your Pan, put in your Pompion pared and cut
in thin slices, then fill up your Pie with sharp Apples, and a little
Pepper, and a little salt, then close it, and bake it, then butter it,
and serve it in hot to the Table.
XCIV. To fry Pompion.
Cut it in thin Slices when it is pared, and steep it in Sack a while,
then dip it in Eggs, and fry it in Butter, and put some Sack and
Butter for Sauce, so serve it in with salt about the Dish Brims.
-----
http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/PieHistory/PumpkinPie.htm
I worked on this entry, corrected it and supplied recipes to the entry
a couple years ago. At one point they had credited Countess Alys with
the 1655 Compleat Cook.
Johnnae
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:01:29 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gourds was Re: Seljuk/Rumi/Sufi Cuisine
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:25 PM, <lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:
<< (sarcasm on) She also includes such 13th century
Anatolian favorites as butternut squash and
zucchini, both New World in origin. (sarcasm off)
Is she suggesting them as substitutes for the period 'gourd'? I've seen
This done before (and done it myself, upon occasion).
I would have no problem with that, although getting various edible gourds
is not that difficult if one lives where there are Middle Eastern, South
Asian, Southeast Asian, or East Asian markets. And now that i have been using
them, i find them far preferable in flavor and texture to zucchini, which is
very watery by comparison. >>
<<< What are they called in the stores? Any chance you have pictures of them?
We have a variety of grocery stores around, but identifying what I
might want is harder :-)
Eyrny >>>
Commonly calabash, dipper and bottle gourds. You might also find them under
the names upo, cucuzza, lau, lauka, tapara, qara, bak, etc., etc., etc.
They come in shapes and colors similar to New World squash, but can be
easily differentiated by the stem. New World squash have deeply ribbed
stems. Old World gourds have round stems with very fine, almost
unnoticeable ribs. The term gourd can be used to describe all members of
the cucurbit family (Cucurbitaceae) or true gourds (genus Lagenaria), so
don't trust that what is called a gourd to be a true gourd.
Bear
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:05:03 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seljuk/Rumi/Sufi Cuisine
On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Kathleen Gormanshaw wrote:
<<< What are they called in the stores? Any chance you have pictures of
them?
We have a variety of grocery stores around, but identifying what I
might want is harder :-)
Eyrny >>>
http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/seasonalcooking/farmtotable/visualguideasianproduce
A Visual Guide to Asian Fruits and Vegetables
Everything you need to know about produce from China, India, Malaysia,
and other regions
Text by Esther Sung; photos by Chris Astley
Read More http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/seasonalcooking/farmtotable/visualguideasianproduce#ixzz0mSFm442L
Johnnae
Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:49:46 -0400
From: Guenievre de Monmarche <guenievre at erminespot.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Melons, cucumbers and eggplants, oh my!
Given our many conversations on the list regarding cucumbers, melons, and
eggplant, the attached may be of interest to some...
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/TS_aob.pdf
(*The Cucurbitaceae and Solanaceae illustrated in medieval manuscripts known
as the Tacuinum Sanitatis)*
Guenievre
<the end>