gourds-msg – 2/22/08
gourds, pumpkins, squash. Which varieties were period. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: root-veg-msg, peppers-msg, vegetarian-msg, turnips-msg, rec-leeks-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg, vegetables-msg.
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From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:00:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
In a message dated 97-05-02 03:46:37 EDT, Linneah writes:
<<One more thing, I keep hearing about/reading about gourds. What are they? I
had been taught that the winter squash we eat are also New World.>>
The Luffa gourd (sponge) is an Old World plant and is extremely edible when
it is very young (less than 6 inches). I have used (and continue to use) this
gourd when when gourds are called for in a period recipe.
Both winter and summer squashes are New World according to all the references
I have read..
Lord Ras
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
>I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New
>World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in
>various recipes is.
>
>Clarissa
From the Miscellany:
Pumpkin, Squash, Gourd
It seems to be well established that at least three of the four cultivated
species of Cucurbita (C. pepo, C. moschata and C. maxima) existed in the
New World long before Columbus; the fourth (C. ficifolia) is "ordinarily
not thought of as a cultivated plant" (Whittaker), but apparently has been
cultivated in the past. Whitaker argues, on the evidence of the absence of
these species in the fifteenth century European herbals and their presence
in the sixteenth century ones, that they were introduced into Europe from
the New World. A variety of C. pepo similar to the squash now known as
"Small Sugar" is illustrated in an herbal of 1542. What appears to be a
field pumpkin is illustrated in 1560, with other varieties appearing in
later herbals during the century. Whitaker concludes that "none of the
cultivated species of Cucurbita were known to the botanists of the Western
world before 1492." If so, all varieties of pumpkins, squash, and vegetable
marrows are inappropriate before 1492; some were known in the sixteenth
century, but may or may not have been sufficiently common to be used in
feasts.
There is, however, a plant translated as "gourd" in both Italian and
Islamic cookbooks before 1492. The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti,
which is 14th century, shows a "Cucurbite" that looks exactly like a green
butternut squash-a fact of which Whitaker seems unaware when asserting the
absence of all varieties of Cucurbita from pre-sixteenth century sources.
It seems likely, however, that his conclusion was correct, and that what is
shown in the picture and used in the recipes is not C. pepo but Lagenaria
sicereia.
"The white-flowered gourd, Lagenaria sicereia," seems to "have been common
to both Old and New Worlds" (Whitaker). I am told that the Italian Edible
Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L.
Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). Simoons describes a
Lagenaria still used in modern Chinese cooking. We have obtained what we
think is the right gourd from a Chinese grocery store and used it in period
recipes with satisfactory results. The taste and texture are somewhat
similar to zucchini but less bitter. The Chinese, or perhaps Vietnamese,
name for one variety, which the grower assured us had white flowers, is
"opo."
David/Cariadoc
From: Lasairina at aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:43:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
> I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New
> World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in
> various recipes is.
>
> Clarissa
I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de
Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni
or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the
cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers...
Lassar Fhina
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:38:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Lagenaria
<< the Italian Edible
Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L.
Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). >>
This is the species that I referred to as the Luffa Gourd (sponge). J.L.
Hudson is an excellent source for exotic seeds from all over the world!
Highly recommended! Their catalog is a reference source that is invaluable to
any serious horticulturist/gardener. Luffa seeds are also carried by local
sores and all major seed companys including Burpee.
Lord Ras
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:15:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon
>I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de
>Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni
>or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the
>cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers...
>
>Lassar Fhina
The Chinese gourds we found, which we think are Lagenaria sicereia (sp?),
which we think is the most likely candidate for the old world gourd, taste
not unlike zucchini. Zucchini, of course, is Cucurbita pepo, and New World.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:26:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Subject: Re: SC - Columbus menu II
From what I understand from the book and from what other people have
posted, the squash family... (zucchini, pumpkins, winter squash are new
world. The type that is old world is the gourd family which included
luffa, chinese squash (obo) and gourds. I've eaten young luffas and gourds
( before they harden). zucchini it seems (as well as some of the others)
were quickly accepted once they were introduced. They are within period
but are not from the Old World. It appears that the old world gourds fell
into disuse (maybe they do not taste as well, who can say) I don't you
would be inaccurate to substitute zucchini for any gourd in a recipe since
they started doing it within period.
Clare St. John
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:47:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Squash
<<
Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period
2) If so any recipes for them
Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy
>>
Well, technically, no. Squash as we think of them (Zucchini and yellow
squash, and winter types) are New World critters. But there are Old World
gourds that were eaten in the Middle East and Mediteranean in period and
zucchini makes a reasonable substitute for those. Look for recipes in Roman
food, Middle Eastern cookbooks like those in Cariadoc's collection, and later
period Italian recipes. The gourds have a firmer, less watery texture than
zucchini, so keep that in mind and adapt any recipes as needed. I've done
"gourds" at least a couple of times for feasts, but I don't think any of the
recipes can be imported to e-mail easily right now or I'd send them........
Ldy Diana
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Squash
<< Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period
2) If so any recipes for them
Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy >>
No squash is not European period. It is a New World introduction. "Gourds"
were used in period . The most probable candidate is the Luffa gourd which is
very tasty when eaten young. Another candidate might be cucumbers that have
been allowed to mature. This is also very edible when cooked properly.
Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of
documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of
guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice
is at best questionable, IMHO.
Lord Ras
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:04:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Squash
<<
Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of
documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of
guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice
is at best questionable, IMHO.
Lord Ras
>>
I don't know---I've grown a variety of the edible Italian gourds and
they and zucchini are pretty interchangable for cooking puposes. Yes, the
texture of the gourds is firmer, and the flavor is stronger, but recipes for
one seem to generally work for the other. And since you can't, to my
knowledge, easily buy any of the edible gourds in sufficient quantities to
serve at a large feast, I think it's a reasonable substitute. I like it
better than just tossing all the recipes for gourds out the window because we
can't get the real item. Rather like using modern carrots for period
ones..........
Ldy Diana, who would love to be able to grow the food for her feasts, if she
just had enough space!
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:05:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Pumpkins?
Yes, I know this isn't strictly arts & sciences, but I'm _afraid_ to get
on the Cooks' list-- too much traffic.
In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about
four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta
Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins,
including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says
they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of
Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them.
Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about
and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly
LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of
any that would qualify offhand.
Help! This is driving me nuts!
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, aka Aunt Bunny, mka Jennifer Heise
jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:18:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pumpkins?
In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about
four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta
Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins,
including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says
they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of
Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them.
Check out the page from Cariadoc's Miscellany:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/cooking_from_primary_sources.html
Tibor
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 19:33:18 -0500 (EST)
From: ALBAN at delphi.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pumpkins?
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa asked
>>n research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about
four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta
Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins,
including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says
they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of
Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them.
Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about
and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly
LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of
any that would qualify offhand.
<<
I just checked the Oxford English Dictionary; the earliest use of either
"pumpkin" or "pompion" (both referring to the same type of plant/
squash) was in the mid 1500's. Now, whether or not they referred
to a New World or an Old World plant I have no idea - but the plant is,
at the very least, a period beastie.
Alban
From: John or Fraya Davis <gameroom at infowest.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pumpkins?
Pumpkins are strictly New World. The only references I've found to them are
as follows from "Food" by Waverly Root:
"In 1540 or thereabouts, Hernando de Alvarado, acting as a scout for
Coronado's penetration of the American Southwest, reported to his chief that
the territory he had explored grew melons. They could not have been
melons, Old World fruits which did not exist in American until the Europeans
brought them there."
"In 1584 Jacques Cartier reported from the St. Lawrence region that he had
found there 'gros melons', translated into English not as 'big melons' but
as 'pompions', pumpkins. As early as 1586, English botanists began writing
about 'melons' and 'millions' as meaning pumpkins. They had picked the word
up, perhaps, from Thomas Hariot, who in the same year had reported the
presence in Virginia of vegetables 'called by us pompions, melons, and
gourds, because they are of the like forms of those kinds in England'.
'The Europeans who encountered squashes and pumpkins in America had to
compare them to melons or some other European vegetable or fruit because
they had never seen anything quite like them before and had no word for
them...we may make bold to assert that squashes and pumpkins are uniquely
American and were completely unknown to the Old World before the time of
Columbus."
"I have one translation of [Charlemagne's recipe for squash soup] in French
and another in English. The French translation of the word Charlemagne used
is courge, 'squash'; but the English translation is 'gourd'."
"Despite their speedy entry into botanical literature in the sixteenth and
seventeenth centuries, squashes did not reach European tables in any numbers
until the nineteenth. There is one reference (in a French source) to the
introduction of the vegetable marrow into Enland about 1700, but the English
themselves did not seem to be aware of it."
Hope that helps. This books is invaluable to me when deciding what foods
were eaten in period. I never realized potatoes were not eaten in England
until the 1700s.
Gillian
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:20:11 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - pumpkins
The word "pumpkin" predates the introduction of the New World vegetable
that now goes by that name. My guess is that it referred to some other
edible gourd, probably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?), the white flowered gourd,
which is our (my and Betty's) best guess at what the early cookbooks mean
by terms such as "gourd" and "pumpkin."
David/Cariadoc
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:30:49 -0400
From: llewmike at iwaynet.net
Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....)
Castelvetro published his work in England in 1614 after years of
research. I have read several other sources on what he meant by
pumpkins and have concluded that he may have meant the "white pumpkin"
of the cucurbitas family. The full title is Brieve racconto di tutte le
radici, di tuttte l'herbe et di tutti i frutti, che crudi o cotti in
Italia si mangiano. LLEW
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:28:23 -0400
From: llewmike at iwaynet.net
Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....)
The "white pumpkin" was a large gourd of the Lagnaria family (not
cucurbitas as I previously mentioned). It is a large white gourd
introduced into Europe during Roman times according to Jane Grigson.
After a little more research, I have come to the conclusion that what he
meant were the old world variety because he describes not only making
pies out of them but also cutting them into strips for eating. LLEW
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:05:53 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast)
> Seannach asked...
> >I just found a modern recipe for gingered butternut squash soup that has
> sweet potatoes in it, and am making it tonight to test out.....is there
> any way this could be period?<
>
> Prolly not. It has sweet potatoes in it. But then, I have gotten somewhat
> confused as to the legitimacy of yellow potatoes in late period Italy.
> Some of us are saying that they were there, and others are saying nay.
>
> Since I was the original poster for the question of butternut squash being
> period (can't find it in Culpeppers or other sources) I too would be
> interested in this.
>
> Micaylah
The references I have available suggest that the sweet potato (Ipomoea
batatas) entered Italy about 1528 with haricot beans as part of a
presentation to Pope Clement VII from Cortez's expedition into Mexico.
The butternut squash (Cucurbita moschata) is much more of a problem.
Cucurbita moschata is found in Africa, Asia, and both Americas. The genus
contains winter squash, some pumpkins, and some gourds. Of particular
interest are bottle gourds, which have been found in Egyptian and
Mesoamerican tombs. While I have not been able to confirm it, I suspect
butternuts are modern variants and bottle gourds or Japanese pumpkin would
have been more likely to be used in period.
Bear
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:31:26 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast)