table-fountns-msg - 5/15/08
Elaborate tabletop fountains used at 13th and 14th century feasts to distribute liquids such as wine or perfumed waters.
NOTE: See also the files: fountains-msg, nefs-msg, utensils-msg, aquamaniles-msg, Handwashing-art, French-Tbl-Srv-art, feast-decor-msg, 14thC-Kitchen-art, beverages-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:22:47 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] table fountains
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>
I am currently reading "Feast - A History of Grand Eating" by Roy
Strong.
On page 99-100 in the medieval section he says:
"Ironically it [the nef] was not the salt that was destined to be the
greatest of all the display pieces but the table fountain. These
were not only ches d'oeuvre of the goldsmith's craft but were items
of extreme ingenuity, involving the movement of liquids, wine or
perfumed waters, which spurted or spouted and whose pressure caused
figures to move or bells to jingle. We know that they already existed
in the thirteenth century, and they begin turning up in inventories
in the fourteenth century." Various examples of these fountains. "The
surviving example in the museum at Cleveland (ohio), despite its
missing basin and foot, gives some impression of the magnificence of
these pieces, whose sole purpose was to amaze."
So, anyone near Cleveland seen this?
Has anyone created such a fountain for a feast?
While it is probably more appropriate for a headtable, it still might
be intriguing for a regular table. My first idea would be to use a
pump from one of the miniature table fountains that have become
popular in the last few years, or maybe even use the correct style of
fountain itself as a starting point. I'm not quite sure how to get
the auxiliary items to do their movements, but I can see using
additional motors or the flowing liquid itself.
Does anyone have any ideas on how they would have done one of these
fountains in period, since the modern cheat of using small battery
driven pumps wasn't available? I can see using a storage resevoir at
a higher position, but without recirculating the liquid i imagine the
amount of liquid squirting out of the fountain would have to be a
tiny stream. Unless they were removed after one course.
I can also imagine some problems if the fountain malfunctions and
starts squirting red wine about.
Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:00:17 -0700
From: Mark Hendershott <crimlaw at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
The Hesse family exhibition in Portland, Oregon had a couple of
these. 17th c if I recall. No explanation of how they worked but
you might find some answers by looking for info on them. They were
complete.
Simon Sinneghe
Briaroak, Summits, An Tir
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:14:58 +0200
From: "Ana Valdes" <agora158 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
It must have been based on levels and weights, as Leonardo already
used in many of his works as engineer in the Milano court. The
"automats" clocks in Prag and Lund, Sweden, were early (13th century)
proofs of remarkable engineering.
Greeks and Romans used advanced engineering for their weapons of siege.
Ana
On 10/27/06, Mark Hendershott <crimlaw at jeffnet.org> wrote:
> The Hesse family exhibition in Portland, Oregon had a couple of
> these. 17th c if I recall. No explanation of how they worked but
> you might find some answers by looking for info on them. They were
> complete.
>
> Simon Sinneghe
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:04:38 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
We discussed fountains before on the Subtleties list.
Here are some notes from our files-- Morwenna wrote:
A few years ago master John McGuire made a swan-shaped cake "wine"
(really grape juice) fountain. You can read about it here:
http://www.jtdiii.com/Recipes/recipes.html It's the third article down.
Baroness Faerisa did one for the Pennsic Subtleties Contest in 2005
She later wrote:
I used one of those fountain kits you can get at craft stores like
Michaels, bent a wire to the shape I wanted, tied the fountain's hose to
it and then covered the hose with a cardboard fish shape (hot glue guns
are your friends :-), covered in cardboard scales for added
3-dimensionality, and all spray painted gold.
I had originally meant to have it dispense wine, but due to limited time
(ie I was doing this the last two nights before leaving for Pennsic) I
decided on water instead, since I was having trouble controlling the
splash-back factor and didn't want to stain the surrounding tablecloths
with a fine mist of wine. Faerisa
From material posted previously on SCA Cooks there's also this:
For visible evidence of food in history, Prof. Rocke?s class, which
numbered fourteen students, visited the Cleveland Museum of Art
<http://www.clemusart.com/>. Students were shown various depictions of
food, artifacts, and containers for food, and they discovered a
fourteenth-century French table fountain. The fountain has a hidden
pumping mechanism that produces a continuous fountain of wine. ?It is a
mechanically ingenious device and a work of art,? Prof. Rocke says.
http://www.case.edu/pubs/cwrumag/spring2001/features/foodthought/
index.shtml
The interactive feature that showed how it worked is mentioned in the
exhibit sections but that appears to have never been part of the
website. It was just for the public attending the show.
Johnnae
Pat wrote:
There is a 14th century table fountain at the
Cleveland Museum of Art.
http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/burgundy/html/1080248.html
It does not use a gravity feed reservoir, but I don't know how it does
work.
Mordonna
another post--
Circumstances prevented me from seeing this exhibit in person,
but I did buy the catalogue. This fountain appears on page 87 in the
2004 volume titled Art from the Court of Burgundy.
From the entry there--
"Originally, the fountain stood in a large catch basin. Water, pumped through a central tube, emerged at the top through a series of nozzles (shaped as animals and drolleries) in jets that forced the rotation of the wheels and rang the tiny bells. The water gradually cascaded from one level to the next through gargoyle heads, only to refill the catch basin for another cycle.
The suggestion that such fountains were intended to be used for banqueting tables is not supported by the evidence. Inventories do not refer to these objects as "table" fountains and contemporary minatures of banqueting scenes do not depict such objects. They are generally associated with rose water. It seems more likely that, secondarily to their interest as objects of entertainment, they were intended to serve as room scenters mounted on tripods or small side tables. " S.N.F.
There appears to be this 40 plus page article on it.
Fliegel, Stephen N. "The Cleveland Table Fountain and Gothic Automata,"
Cleveland Studies in the History of Art. 2002 v.7. pp. 6-49.
That article might be a starting point for more research. Looking up
automata as well as fountains might also be helpful. I'll see if I
can find some books too.
Johnnae
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:42:06 EDT
From: SilverR0se at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
I have recently been seeing items sold as "chocolate fountains" at my local
Linens 'n' Things. They are not very fancy but if their pumps were designed to
move melted chocolate, I would think they would work for wine or other
beverages as well.
Maybe they could be gussied up a bit - I'll look next time I'm in there.
Renata
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:26:02 -0400
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Table Fountains
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Stefan wrote:
> Various examples of these fountains. "The
> surviving example in the museum at Cleveland (ohio), despite its
> missing basin and foot, gives some impression of the magnificence of
> these pieces, whose sole purpose was to amaze."
>
> So, anyone near Cleveland seen this?
Yup! I did and it was fantastic. I watched the computer reconstruction of
what it might have looked like in operation. I was surprised to discover
that the fountain was much smaller than the photos had led me to
believe.
Alys Katharine
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:13:19 -0500
From: "M+D: Mary and Doug Piero Carey" <mdcarey at compuserve.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] table fountains
To: sca-cooks-request at lists.ansteorra.org,
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Stefan asked if anyone had seen Cleveland Museum of Art's table
fountain.
I have, but it has been several years. About all I remember is that
it is large, elaborate, & very impressive. The metal was mostly
silver in color. I don't recall whether it was actual silver or just
silver color. I can't even remember which exhibit it was in. I'll
do some digging & see if I bought the catalog (I usually do), but it
will be a couple days at least before I can get to it. I wonder if
they made a video of the fountain in motion. Sometimes CMA does do
that. I'm a member, perhaps the museum library will do a little
searching for me.
Maria
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:01:38 -0500
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Table Fountains
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Maria wrote:
> Stefan asked if anyone had seen Cleveland Museum of Art's table
> fountain.
>
> I have, but it has been several years. About all I remember is that
> it is large, elaborate, & very impressive.
As I wrote earlier, I don't recall that it was "large" although our
expectations may have been different. To me, it was smaller than I
had imagined from the pictures of it (http://www.clevelandart.org/
educef/arts21/html/5452490.html). The web site doesn't seem to give
any dimensions. I was impressed with its intricacy and delicacy.
Alys Katharine
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:20:04 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Table Fountains-- Rival
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Back in October we discussed table fountains and on 10/27 Renata mentioned
"I have recently been seeing items sold as "chocolate fountains" at my
local Linens 'n' Things. They are not very fancy but if their pumps were
designed to move melted chocolate, I would think they would work for wine or other beverages as well. Maybe they could be gussied up a bit - I'll look next time I'm in there."
It turns out that RIVAL now has a 14 pc beverage fountain for the holidays.
http://www.lnt.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2364644
Good picture at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Rival-Beverage-Fountain-cups-Ladle/dp/B000JWDWDG
Prices vary widely and I am wondering if after the holidays, the price
will drop.
Johnnae
From: Karen <karen_larsdatter at yahoo.com>
Date: July 8, 2007 12:52:05 PM CDT
To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
Subject: Re: Artssciences Digest, Vol 50, Issue 1
> In the FOOD-UTENSILS section:
> table-fountns-msg Elaborate tabletop fountains used to
> distribute wine or perfumed waters.
Hi -- apologies for the brevity of this reply (am feeding the baby
with one hand, typing with the other) -- but you could add a link in
this page to http://www.larsdatter.com/tablefountains.htm -- my
linkspage on this subject -- your readers might find 'em
interesting. :-)
Karen
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