Use of Salmon in period. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: fish-msg, seafood-msg, stockfish-msg, Complet-Anglr-msg, fish-pies-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:33:37 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Salmon at feasts
marilyn traber wrote, re salmon:
> fresh, prepared en papillot on a bed of leeks, carrots and celery sauted
> in butter with thyme and rosemary, topped with lemon slices and dabs of
> butter-a la bretonne, in other words....sigh!
Some more period approaches to salmon would to roast it whole, and eat
it with cameline sauce, green sauce, or perhaps a mustard sauce, and I
found a spiffy version of salmon quenelles or dumplings, called "Saumon
Gentil" somewhere in Curye on Inglysche. This dish involved mincing
skinless and boneless fillets (note: do NOT remove the belly fat!) and
extruding them through a hollow horn with the tip cut off, into boiling
liquid. When the blobs are cooked, they can be cut into serving
portions, and sprinkled with ground cumin. We made these at an event
recently, and added some eggs to the mix, for a little insurance against
breakage, and made individual dumplings with a pastry bag. We poached
them in salmon stock, made from the remains of the salmon (being SURE to
remove the gills, and any fat on the carcasses), and served them
floating on top of a green sauce of salmon stock, malt vinegar, parsley,
sorrel, and a few fresh bread crumbs.
While not exactly a direct comment on the fish, somebody saw fit to rise
and regale the folks in the hall with an impromptu recitation of the
tale of Finn Mac Coul and the Salmon of Knowledge. I thought that was
pretty cool... .
Adamantius
Date: 8 Oct 1997 15:58:33 -0700
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Salmon at feasts
two of the best ways I have had salmon (other than just poached with
appropriate sauce) were:
marinated in sliced onions, dried cranberries, wine, soysauce, and a bit of
sugar and then grilled.
and
a russian salmon loaf- a pie-dough sorta thing stuffed with flaked salmon,
rice, hardboiled egg- can't remember the spices exactly but dill comes to
mind- served hot with a dollup of sour cream.
- -brid
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 20:57:59 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Salmon at feasts
Marisa Herzog wrote:
> a russian salmon loaf- a pie-dough sorta thing stuffed with flaked salmon,
> rice, hardboiled egg- can't remember the spices exactly but dill comes to
> mind- served hot with a dollup of sour cream.
>
> -brid
That would be coulibiac, which was originally made from sturgeon.
Traditional coulibiac, even now, is supposed to contain vesiga, which is
a gelatinous stuff taken from the spine of the sturgeon, in addition to
the other fish flesh.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:08:39 EST
From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain)
Subject: SC - Recipes x3
M'Lords and M'Ladys,
I thought people might enjoy these.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salmon with Spices and Prunes, Whole Baked
From "The Tudor Kitchen's Cookery Book" Hampton Court Palace;
Printed in The Oregonian Newspaper Food Day Mar 10, 1998.
Salmon was popular in Tudor England. However, if you want to be
more authentic, order a carp from your fishmonger.
1 whole fresh salmon or carp, 2 to 3 lbs, gutted and cleaned (2
lbs without head)
6 tb butter softened
2 ts ground mace
12 whole cloves
Salt to taste
Pepper to taste
Garnish:
Whole cooked prunes
A few currants
fresh lemon wedges
Salad leaves
Green onions
Radishes
Fresh dill
Lay the fish on a large, greased sheet of foil set on a baking
sheet. Mix the butter with the mace and salt and spread on the inside
cavity and over the skin. Sprinke with cloves, then wrap the foil up
loosely but sealing well. Bake at 350 deg for about 30 to 45 minutes
depending on the size, until the fish is tender but still feels quite
firm when pressed near the backbone. If the flesh is pale pink, then it
is cooked. Allow to stand for 5 minutes before dishing into larger
platter with the fish juices poured over, garnish with some whole cooked
prunes, a few currants scattered over, lemon wedges, salad leaves, green
onions and dill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Korrin S. DaArdain
Dodging trees in the Kingdom of An Tir.
Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:44:35 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - First Feast Update
> others are bringing: salmon steak (not period, but it's a start)
Of course it is! Here is a recipe from Harleian 4016, c. 1450 (From "Take
1000 Eggs or More, v.2, p. 350). I haven't tried it, but it sounds
delicious!
Harleian MS. 4016
154 Samon roste in Sauce. Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and
all, and roste the peces on a gredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell,
and drawe it [th]orgh a streynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste
[th]ere-to, and lete hem boyle; And [th]en take vynegre, or vergeous, and
pouder ginger, and cast there-to; And [th]en ley the samon in a dissh, and
cast [th]e sirip [th]eron al hote, & serue it forth.
154 Salmon roasted in Sauce. Take a Salmon, and cut him round, backbone
and all, and roast the pieces on a gridiron; And take wine, and powder of
Cinnamon, and draw it through a strainer; And take small minced onions, and
cast thereto, and let them boil; And then take vinegar, or verjuice, and
powdered ginger, and cast thereto; And then lay the salmon in a dish, and
cast the syrup thereon all hot, & serve it forth.
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th
Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing
Recipes"
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:07:55 -0800From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>Subject: Re: SC - First Feast UpdateAt 1:19 PM -0700 7/13/98, Vickie Strassburg wrote:> others are bringing: salmon steak (not period, but it's a start)Actually, it is period. You could either make the sauce for this over thefire on site, as it is fairly easy, or make in advance and keep cold.Salmon roste in SauceTwo Fifteenth Century p. 102Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and all, and rost the peces on agredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell, and drawe it thorgh astreynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste there-to, and lete hemboyle; And then take vynegre, or vergeous, and pouder ginger, and castthere-to; and then ley the samon in a dissh, and cast the sirip theron alhote, & serue it forth. [end of original; thorns replaced by th]1 3/4 lb salmon 3/4 t cinnamon 1/4 c red wine vinegar3/4 c white wine 1 medium onion, 6 oz 1/4 t gingerChop onion; put onion, wine, and cinnamon in small pot, cook on mediumabout 20 minutes. Add ginger and vinegar. Simmer. Meanwhile, take salmonsteaks, cut into serving sized pieces, place on ungreased baking pan orcookie sheet. Broil for 10 minutes until lightly browned. Turn salmon,making certain pieces are separated, cook another 4 minutes or until done.Serve immediately with sauce over it.Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:12:08 EDT
From: Mordonna22 at aol.com
Subject: SC - Grilled Salmon - my redaction
Tonight I served grilled salmon and a spinach tart.
Every drop and crumb was eaten by we three ladies, and I got rave reviews!
Harleian MS. 4016
154 Samon roste in Sauce. Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and all,
and roste the peces on a gredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell and
drawe it [th]orgh a streynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste [th]ere-
to, and lete hem boyle; And [th]en take vynegre, or vergeous, and pouder
ginger, and cast there-to; And [th]en ley the samon in a dissh, and
cast [th]e sirip [th]eron al hote, & serue it forth
154 Salmon roasted in Sauce. Take a Salmon, and cut him round, backbone and
all, and roast the pieces on a gridiron; And take wine, and powder of
Cinnamon, and draw it through a strainer; And take small minced onions, and
cast thereto, and let them boil; And then take vinegar, or verjuice, and
powdered ginger, and cast thereto; And then lay the salmon in a dish, and cast
the syrup thereon all hot, & serve it forth
My redaction:
Three salmon steaks
2 TBS butter
salt
pepper
Sauce
1 cup red wine (Mogen David Concord {why not})
1/2 tsp ground cinnamon
1 cup minced onion
2 TBS red wine vinegar
1/2 tsp ginger
Cook Salmon in a large sauce pan in the butter, adding salt and pepper to
taste. Cook five minutes on each side.
While the Salmon is cooking, make the sauce. Place wine, cinnamon, and onions
in a small sauce pan and bring to a boil. Boil for 1 min, add vinegar and
ginger, stir well and return to a boil.
Place Salmon in a serving dish, and pour sauce over it and serve.
(yummy, yummy, yummy)
Mordonna
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:53:56 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Grilled Salmon - my redaction
Mordonna tried a period salmon recipe; we did the same recipe a while ago.
>Harleian MS. 4016
>154 Samon roste in Sauce. Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and all,
>and roste the peces on a gredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell and
>drawe it [th]orgh a streynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste [th]ere-
>to, and lete hem boyle; And [th]en take vynegre, or vergeous, and pouder
>ginger, and cast there-to; And [th]en ley the samon in a dissh, and
>cast [th]e sirip [th]eron al hote, & serue it forth
>
Mordonna's version:
>Three salmon steaks
>2 TBS butter
>salt
>pepper
>
>Sauce
>1 cup red wine (Mogen David Concord {why not})
>1/2 tsp ground cinnamon
>1 cup minced onion
>2 TBS red wine vinegar
>1/2 tsp ginger
>
>Cook Salmon in a large sauce pan in the butter, adding salt and pepper to
>taste. Cook five minutes on each side.
>
>While the Salmon is cooking, make the sauce. Place wine, cinnamon, and onions
>in a small sauce pan and bring to a boil. Boil for 1 min, add vinegar and
>ginger, stir well and return to a boil.
>
>Place Salmon in a serving dish, and pour sauce over it and serve.
Our version:
1 3/4 lb salmon
3/4 c white wine
3/4 t cinnamon
1 medium onion, 6 oz
1/4 c red wine vinegar
1/4 t ginger
Chop onion; put onion, wine, and cinnamon in small pot, cook on medium
about 20 minutes. Add ginger and vinegar. Simmer. Meanwhile, take salmon
steaks, cut into serving sized pieces, place on ungreased baking pan or
cookie sheet. Broil for 10 minutes until lightly browned. Turn salmon,
making certain pieces are separated, cook another 4 minutes or until done.
Serve immediately with sauce over it.
>(yummy, yummy, yummy)
>Mordonna
So was ours, in spite of the fact we did the sauce with noticably different
proportions and ours was cooked much longer. This is one I want to include
when I (one of these years) do a proper Lenten feast.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 21:45:19 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - More On Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts (Long!)
Cindy Renfrow wrote:
> Back in February we were discussing 'Baconn'd Herring' without resolution
> as to what it meant. I just ran across this in Le Menagier (The notes are
> M. Pichon's):
>
> "SAUMON frais soit baconné,(1) et gardez l'eschine pour rostir; puis
> despeciez par dales cuites en eaue, et
> du vin et du sel au cuire; mengié au poivre jaunet ou à la cameline et en
> pasté, qui veult, pouldré (2)
> d'espices; et se le saumon est salé, soit mengié au vin et à la ciboule par
> rouelles.(3)
>
> (1)Fumé. Voy. Du Cange au mot Baco.
>
> (2)Peut-être faut-il lire pouldre en sous-entendant avec.
>
> (3)G. C. , 69."
>
> Translation please?
After a little more consideration, I've discarded a lot of my earlier attempt
at a translation. (Computer programs just aren't made for this kind of thing,
not that I paid much attention to what Power Translator said, anyway !) I
still haven't run across anything like it in the cookery sections of my Eileen
Power translation of le Menagier, but I did manage to run across the
following, almost identical passage elsewhere. From the Vatican's copy of Le
Viandier de Taillevent, translated by Terence Scully:
"124. Saumon frez. Baconné, et gardez l'eschine pour rostir; puis le depecies
par dalles et soit cuit en eaue, du vin et du sel au cuire; et soit mengié au
poivre jaunet ou a la cameline; et le mectent aucuns ressuyer sur le grail au
mengiér; et en pasté, qui veult, pouldré d'espices, et soit mengié a la
cameline; et s'il est sallé, soit cuit en eaue sans sel et mengiés au vin et a
la ciboule miciee.
"124. Fresh Salmon. It should be larded, and keep the spine in it for roasting
(var.: frying in a pan); then pick it apart by layers, and cook it in water
and wine, with salt; it should be eaten with yellow Pepper Sauce or with
Cameline Sauce. Some people set it to dry on the grill for eating.
Alternatively, in a pasty, sprinkled with spice powder, and eaten with
Cameline Sauce. If it is salted, it should be cooked in water without salt and
eaten with wine and chopped shallots."
Okay, I admit calling the ciboules onions may have been a bit hasty. What are
we left with? Interestingly enough, we are back to the point of wondering
whether baconned herring is herring with bacon or other lard added, or herring
cured or otherwise treated like bacon. Scully seems to go for the former
theory in the case of the salmon recipe quoted, while Pichon seems to espouse
the latter idea. Scully does point out several instances of "baconner" used as
a verb, as opposed to the use of "lard" as a verb, but also sez he believes
baconner to be a corruption of another verb. The bottom line is that Scully
says he feels the fish is to be larded, and cites a couple of other uses of a
similar verb, but then he says he's not sure, it may be that the fish is to be
studded, as with cloves or some such (boutonner). Pichon pretty clearly thinks
the reference is to salmon being smoked, unless I'm vastly mistaken.
In any case, I'm still not sure I buy the Scully interpretation of the bit
about the chine. He seems to feel a dual cooking process is involved, first
roasting, then removing it from the bones and breaking it up, and simmering in
water with wine and salt. Scully, of course, seems to attribute all acts of
unknown motivation to medical theory: he says the second cooking process is a
boiling, thus "exposing it to the warming and drying effects of wine and
salt." I'm not sure I buy this, since even if salmon is unusally cold and
moist, you'd think a roasting would be the way to counteract this. And, if
wine and salt were really necessary, why spoil it with a cooling, moist
cooking method like boiling? Yes, I know boiling is in fact really hot, just
take it up with Galen, please, okay?
I'm still inclined to think there is at least some possibility that the
roasting is for the upper, back portion of the fish, and the boiling for the
fatty rib and ventral area meat.
Regarding the footnotes, the first refers to an author named Du Cange,
suggesting Du Cange uses the word "baco'. I have no access to anything written
by Du Cange, but his name is mentioned in a footnote by Eileen Power in her
translation of Le Menagier. It is, unfortunately, in connection with an
entirely different passage so doesn't help us here, much. As for the third
footnote, I haven't the foggiest idea who or what G.C. is.
Well, I'm done for now. Now is the time for anyone wishing to translate this
into poetry, or include lamb's lettuce in the recipe, to speak now or forever
hold his/her piece (and you know who you are!!!) ; )
In wild hopes this has helped, instead of just making everything more confusing,
Adamantius
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:29:31 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - More On Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts (Long!)
>Interestingly enough, we are back to the point of wondering
>whether baconned herring is herring with bacon or other lard added, or herring
>cured or otherwise treated like bacon. Scully seems to go for the former
>theory in the case of the salmon recipe quoted, while Pichon seems to espouse
>the latter idea. Scully does point out several instances of "baconner" used as
>a verb, as opposed to the use of "lard" as a verb, but also sez he believes
>baconner to be a corruption of another verb. The bottom line is that Scully
>says he feels the fish is to be larded, and cites a couple of other uses of a
>similar verb, but then he says he's not sure, it may be that the fish is to be
>studded, as with cloves or some such (boutonner). Pichon pretty clearly thinks
>the reference is to salmon being smoked, unless I'm vastly mistaken.
"Larded" seems unlikely, to me anyway, because the salmon is fish & the
lard is meat, & they seem to be mutually exclusive in most period recipes.
(At least the ones I can remember at the moment...) Also, a salmon is
described as being a fat fish, rather than a lean one. Do you typically
add fat to salmon when you cook it?
>I'm still inclined to think there is at least some possibility that the
>roasting is for the upper, back portion of the fish, and the boiling for the
>fatty rib and ventral area meat.
I'm inclined to agree with your first assessment:
>fresh SALMON [belly?] is smoked, (1) and keep the chine for roasting;
In other words, the salmon is divided & one part is smoked & the other part
roasted. A salmon is a big fish, after all. The direction to
partially-roast & then simmer in wine, or other liquid, is found in other
recipes. In fact Aoife's recipe for stwed beef does the same thing. The
partial roasting (or broiling) brings out the flavor, & the simmering
tenderizes the flesh & adds other flavors.
>Regarding the footnotes, the first refers to an author named Du Cange,
>suggesting Du Cange uses the word "baco'. I have no access to anything written
>by Du Cange, but his name is mentioned in a footnote by Eileen Power in her
>translation of Le Menagier. It is, unfortunately, in connection with an
>entirely different passage so doesn't help us here, much. As for the third
>footnote, I haven't the foggiest idea who or what G.C. is.
G. C. is a work called "le Grand cuisinier de toutes cuisines". I don't
any info on Du Cange -- does anyone have access to Attar or Bitting, etc.
>Adamantius
Cindy
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 01:07:46 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - More On Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts (Long!)
Here is the Hinson translation of what seems to be the passage in question.
FRESH SALMON should be smoked, and leave the backbone in for roasting; then
cut it into slices boiled in water, with wine and salt during cooking; eat
with yellow pepper or with cameline sauce and in pastry, whatever you like,
sprinkled with spices; and if the salmon is salted, let it be eaten with
wine and sliced scallions.
I believe the Powers translation is very fragmentary, so far as the cooking
section is concerned, with chunks omitted without notice. The Hinson
translation, incidentally, is on my web page.
David/Cariadoc
Subject: Re: SC - Salmon recipe with beer
> From Gervase Markham's The English Huswife:
>
> To seeth fresh Salmon.
>
> Take a little water, and as much Beere and Salt,
> and put thereto Parsley, Time, and Rosemarie, and
> let all thes boyle together; then put in your
> Salmon, and make your broth sharpe with some
> Vinigar.
>
> My redaction:
<snipped>
It's a lovely period recipe but I do wonder about your
redaction. Basically the period recipe is calling for
making a rich broth of beer, herbs, salt and vinegar
then poaching the fish.
There's no oil or pepper mentioned and I do wonder about
the use of even a high sided jelly roll pan to poach
fish in.
Please believe that I'm not flaming or attacking you
but this is one of the simpler period recipes and do
wonder how you came about with this redaction. Did you
try it following Markham's recipe and find it lacking?
> Huette
Gunthar
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:25:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Salmon recipe with beer
- ---"Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com> wrote:
> > From Gervase Markham's The English Huswife:
> >
> > To seeth fresh Salmon.
> >
> > Take a little water, and as much Beere and Salt,
> > and put thereto Parsley, Time, and Rosemarie, and
> > let all thes boyle together; then put in your
> > Salmon, and make your broth sharpe with some
> > Vinigar.
> >