pies-msg - 11/13/08
General comments on period fruit and meat pies. Baking pies. Pie crusts.
NOTE: See also the files: meat-pies-msg, tarts-msg, fruits-msg, apples-msg, fruit-pears-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, pastries-msg, fruit-pies-msg, fish-pies-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com>
Date: 16 Apr 1997 10:05:07 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - SC: Viking's Pies & Feast Themes
> Now that I have some idea of what pies I can make in persona, does anyone
> have a recipe for a pie crust that is period? All the ones I got handed down
> are definitly modern, and the libraries around here seem not to have much of
> anything from before the 1800's unless it is a broad history text.
Simple redaction from Markham (my favorite source -- he's so easy!!) --
Warning -- I tend to work in quantity:
5 lbs of white flour
1 teaspoon of salt
1 lb of butter
Water
Mix the flour and salt together. Cut in the butter (this is a recipe for meat
coffins -- use more butter for fruit); this much butter won't create the
little dough balls.
Slowly mix in room temperature water. I work by touch so I don't have any
idea how much I add; the amount changes with the ambient humidity. The dough
is done when it sticks together, but is not clammy. It has a nice play-doughy
texture.
I prefer to use a pastry knife to cut in the butter and mix the early
additions of water. Then I take off my rings and get my hands messy. :-)
This recipe will make probably 10 pie shells, depending on how thin you want
them. For meat pies, a 1/4 inch thick is good.
Derdriu
swensel at brandegee.lm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 00:14:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kimib2 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - pie beans?
<< What are *pie beans*? Are these some kind of special
> synthetic bean-like item made for this purpose?
> Or do you mean just use a pile of uncooked beans? >>
I use this method all the time!!! Finally, somthing I know about! You put a
layer of wax paper in your pie shell, cover with uncooked beans or rice. You
can save these for later useage, just donŐt cook them to eat! (yuck!)
kimib2
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:46:27 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Researching bread coffyns
> 2. Mix flour, water, and a little salt. I don't know why the salt - my
> mum told me. Roll and line dish for bottom, keep some for the top. Beware
> of shrinkage...
>
> Charles Ragnar
The salt helps make the crust tender (as a gentle lady reminded me the last
time I commented on one of my pie shell experiments). A little salt
provides some rise.
Bear
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:08:44 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Researching bread coffyns
> I am researching great pies and all of the recipes that I can find for
> the pies do not state how the crusts were made. Even worse, I can't
> find anything of the type anywhere. Does anyone have any suggestions?
> LLEW
There is an excellent article on the subject by Lady Aoife in Stefan's
Florilegium, which can be found at:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/rialto.html
[new address - http://www.florilegium.org -Stefan]
The medieval coffin was more likely a pastry dough of flour and water with
possibly some salt or lard or both mixed in. In general, bread doughs would
be too soft, although focaccia dough could easily have been used to make
small filled breads.
Markham's The English Hous-wife (1615) gives the following recipe:
Of the Mixture of Paste . . . Your course Wheat-crust should be kneaded with
hot water, or Mutton broth, and good store of butter, and the paste made
stiffe and tough, because the Coffin must be deep.
The Good Huswifes Handmaid (1588) provides:
To make Paste another Way Take butter and ale, and seeth them together;
then take your flower, and put there into three egs, saffron and salt.
These two recipes are not medieval, but Elizabethean, and may not be in any
way similar to the pastry for most medieval pies.
Bear
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:05:54 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - Tartys in Applis-NEW recipe-enjoy
Tyrca wrote:
>Very interesting, Ras, and it brings up a question that I have had for
>some time, about mincemeat. I grew up with mincemeat pies for
>Christmas as something with _meat_ in them. My mother usually used
>leftover roast beef or venison, put it through a hand grinder, and
>added the apples and raisins, and canned the filling to use for the
>holidays. It is my father's favorite. As I grew older, and went more
>out into the world, I discovered that other people I talked to had
>never heard of meat in mince pies. They thought I was crazy.
>
>Did they really use meat in mincemeat pies in period? Or is my family
>just an abberation? Any recipes? Anyone?
Fruit in medieval meat pies was a very common occurance.
Actually, until the second half of the fifteenth century recipes for meat
pies with fruit seem to be much more common than for fruit pies without
meat. Many meat pies were baked in a heavy flour and water crust that
served mostly as a container for the ingredients and could stand up under
long cooking times. Some writer's have claimed that the innovation of a
lighter and more edible pie crust and suggested that this new pie crust
made the fruit pies (which needed shorter cooking times) much more popular.
This is all supposition on the part of the historians so I set out to see
if I could verify it by scanning a number of cookbooks for recipes for
fruit pies that did not include meat. Out of about twenty English, French
and German cookbooks from the 14th to 16th century one percent or fewer
recipes were for fruit pies in the earlier two centuries while twelve
percent of all the 16th century recipes were for fruit only pies.
These are imperfect statistics since most of my 16th C. sources were German
- - so it might be a regional fad.
Valoise
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:46:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Bread Soup Bowls
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Stefan li Rous wrote:
> What did period folk do for food on the go? Did they always sit down to
> eat? We can't seem to find proof of sandwiches or breadbowls or flatbreads
> with meats in them (such as Greek Gyros or tortillas).
Stefan,
In several of my 'pretty picture books' are pictures of what is
generally labeled (if at all) as a '14thc. ivory carving'- a triptyc with
a scene of the Madonna and Child and worshipping angels below, and above a
tournament with jousting and ladies in the gallery. In one area, there is
two men and a woman looking over a crenellated edge at the scene below,
and one of the men is holding in his hand what I can only describe as a
Hostess Fruit Pie- you know, the half-moon shape, filled, and crimped
along the rounded edge. Given the particular contortions his face is in,
it looks as though he's eating, so I would gather he's nibbling on his
pie. What might be in the pie, I don't know. It could be what we call a
'Dariole', or it could be he went through the drive through of the local
Golden Arches on the way to the tourney and picked up one of those pyes
with the too-hot filling. Whatever- it looks like food too me. I can look
for a reference on the triptyc if you are desperate to see it.
'Lainie
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:25:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Bread Bowl Eqivalents
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> Since I've got the recipes, I am desparate to see the illustration! Be
> nice to have visual documentation, if you'd be so kind, 'Lainie.
I'll try. I went through my shelf and found that the specific one
(the triptyc) was not there- probably loaned out. But I found a picture
of a nearly identical ivory in an old Time-Life book, specifically _Age of
Faith_ by Anne Fremantle (Time Incorporated, New York, 1965). On pages
108-9 is the picture of this ivory, with the joust a'plaisance, the
gallery,etc. In the upper right corner is the guy with something in his
hand. It still looks like a pie of some sort to me, but it is not as clear
as the other ivory. If I have time in the next couple of days I'll go to
the art library and see if I can locate the triptyc.
'Lainie
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:24:15 -0700
From: varmstro at zipcon.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: SC - Hot water pie crust
Has anyone (Bear, for instance?) tried the hot water method for making pie
crust mentioned in Sabina Welserin? She's got two kinds of tender crusts,
one that uses eggs and at least a couple of mentions of crust that starts
by dissolving the fat in boiling water. That goes against everything my
mother (best pie baker in the world) taught me.
But yesterday I decided to give it a try. I dissoved 3/4 cup of shortening
(next time I'll try lard) in about 1/2 cup of boiling water, stirred it
until it was thoroughly mixed and then added flour. It took about 2 cups of
flour to get the right consistency. I let the dough chill for a few hours.
After warming it up to room temperature, it handled just fine, rolled out
quite easily. The finished product was quite tender.
Valoise
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:14:36 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Hot water pie crust
Valoise Armstrong wrote:
> Has anyone (Bear, for instance?) tried the hot water method for making pie
> crust mentioned in Sabina Welserin? She's got two kinds of tender crusts,
> one that uses eggs and at least a couple of mentions of crust that starts
> by dissolving the fat in boiling water. That goes against everything my
> mother (best pie baker in the world) taught me.
I agree, it's not anywhere near the traditional American wisdom in this
area; _MY_ mother, (best pie maker in the world, with myself a humble
close second, but at least not arrogant about it ; ) ) also never
used this method AFAIK. There's a bazillion types of pastry out there,
and most Americans learn only a fairly typical short crust. A good hot
water crust comes out something like a cookie texture when done right.
> But yesterday I decided to give it a try. I dissoved 3/4 cup of shortening
> (next time I'll try lard) in about 1/2 cup of boiling water, stirred it
> until it was thoroughly mixed and then added flour. It took about 2 cups of
> flour to get the right consistency. I let the dough chill for a few hours.
> After warming it up to room temperature, it handled just fine, rolled out
> quite easily. The finished product was quite tender.
With all that shortening, it should be, and also the heat would probably
be a factor (cooked glutein and glutenin don't form strands). I might
suggest you try not being too careful about stirring the fat and water
together, as that will allow the mixture to cool off a bit just when you
need that heat.
I'm curious about one thing, though...what I was always taught about
this pastry was to simply make it by mixing the ingredients, stirring
until it forms a ball, then to knead it very briefly as soon as it's
cool enough to handle. What I'd always been taught to do, and have
always done, was to form my "coffin" while the pastry was still warm and
at its most flexible, rather than to chill it, then warm it up again. My
experience has been that room temp is usually too cold to work the stuff
properly (possible, but more difficult). This may have something to do
with proportions, though, maybe your recipe works out to more fat than mine...
Cool stuff, though, i'n't it?
Adamantius
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:10:15 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Hot water pie crust
> Has anyone (Bear, for instance?) tried the hot water method for making pie
> crust mentioned in Sabina Welserin?
I've made the fat and hot water dough in recipe 61 a couple of times, using a 1/4 cup of butter to 1/4 cup of water. I've made it with all purpose flour and
with cake flour, but I used them different ways so there is no real
comparison as to which works best. The cake flour requires more flour and
does not get as stiff as the all purpose flour.
For the latest experiment, I used 2 cups of cake flour sifted with 1
teaspoon of salt and 2 eggs mixed into it. After which,1/4 cup of butter in
1/4 cup of water brought to a boil then removed from the stove and the
butter allowed to melt was added and stirred in. The resulting dough was
then worked with additional flour until smooth.
Unchilled, I found the dough to be a little sticky, needing a well floured
surface for rolling. After 30 minutes in the refrigerator the dough was
easy to handle and rolled out well on a lightly floured surface.
Rolled thin, it is a nice dough for Krapfen. I used it with Sabina
Welserin's recipe for Shrove Tuesday doughnuts (173). It fries well.
As a tart shell, I pre-baked it and found it to be a little tough and
over-done. The next time I will not pre-bake. I found the dough superior
to the egg, flour and water pie shells I have experimented with previously.
I too would like to try this with lard, although I will probably make it
with meat broth from lamb shanks first.
Bear
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:20:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: cclark at vicon.net
Subject: Re: SC - icelandic chicken redaction.
'Lainie wrote:
>david friedman wrote:
>> ... In the English corpus, at least, you have specific references to
>> short pastes--doughs with shortening. It looks to me as if the default
>> "paste" is basically a flour./water dough, and the addition of shortening
>> is considered a variation worth noting. ...
>
>Hmm. By that rationale, perhaps going back to piecrust is the best
>solution? My considerations are: will the kids eat it? And how can I
>make it in camp with a minimum of fuss and mess (important when
>15-year-olds are cooking)...
That depends on what you mean by pie crust. Most Americans seem to "know"
that pie crust consists of partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (or
"vegetable shortening") cut into salted flour, which is then moistened with
cold water to make it hold together. If they know that much. What period
English (or other) cooks knew was a bit different.
To begin with, period cooks didn't always assume that the dough was to be
eaten. But if it was to be eaten, they would likely improve it by using a
finer grade of flour, and shortening it with melted butter (back then,
butter seems to have been the most popular shortening for baking). The first
reference I have seen to shortening (again butter) that is cut into the
dough is from the 17th century (Digby, perhaps?) and the writer implies that
this is or might be a new innovation. And the butter is cut into the dough
after the rest is mixed, instead of the modern method of adding water after
the shortening is cut in. Looks like a direct adaptation of puff pastry. I
would guess that this 17th-century pastry was an ancestor of our modern
flaky and mealy pie pastries.
So if you want to use pie crust, period style, I would suggest either a
plain flour-water dough (perhaps lightly salted, and probably using some
non-wheat flour), or a flour, water, and melted butter dough. Don't use a
whole lot of butter or it gets grease all over your fingers. Not good for
your dexterity. (Though a slug might be more concerned about salt...)
Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:37:23 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - RE:New CA: French Food in the Renaissance
Deborah.Schumacher at iac.honeywell.com writes:
<<Another thing i note is that a lot of the pies/tarts when filled, have a
rather thin filling and that the filling may need to be doubled for modern
tastes....<snip>.......were medieval pies less full? Or were the pie
crusts smaller making the filling more substantial? Do we know what the
medieval pie size was? >>
I don't think we know. However, various pictures from the middle ages show a
common type of 'pie' which appears to be about 6-7 inches across, about 4
inches high, straight sided, with a small hole in the center.
If you are referring to modern amounts in recipes for pies that have been
adapted from period recipes, I would suggest that the author either did not
try the recipe with the amounts stated or used a considerably smaller crust
diameter than stated. If you are referring to a period recipe, then no
amounts are given so you can make as much of the filling as it takes to fill
the pie.
Ras
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:08:46 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - SC Re: New CA: French Food in the Renaissance
> Deborah.Schumacher at iac.honeywell.com writes:
> << are there any surviving pie plates? Where would I look for
> information on them? >>
>
> Period illustrations don't seem to show any dish that could be reasonably
> called a pie plate. The pies were apparently free standing. The key to
> understanding period pies is to realize that the dough container was most
> likely not meant to be eaten.
>
> Ras
Pieter Brueghel's Peasant Wedding shows pies which look suspiciously like
modern pies being carted around the table on some planking laid over two
poles. I would say they could have been baked in a standard pie tin or a
plain tart pan. This is Brueghel the Elder, c. 1525-1569.
Earlier woodcuts and drawings show bakers using dishes which resemble deep,
covered casserole dishes, but without explanation of precisely what is being
prepared.
IIRC, the illustrations from Scappi's Opera show some tart pans.
Bear
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:42:48 -0700
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: RE: SC - SC Re: New CA: French Food in the Renaissance
hey all from Anne-Marie
Terry sez:
>Pieter Brueghel's Peasant Wedding shows pies which look suspiciously like
>modern pies being carted around the table on some planking laid over two
>poles. I would say they could have been baked in a standard pie tin or a
>plain tart pan. This is Brueghel the Elder, c. 1525-1569.
Funny, I always interpreted this as bowls of soup or custard, seeing as how
there's a guy in the back tilting it back like a drinking bowl? Or am I
misremembering?
- --AM
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:05:33 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - SC Re: New CA: French Food in the Renaissance
> Terry sez:
> >Pieter Brueghel's Peasant Wedding shows pies which look suspiciously like
> >modern pies being carted around the table on some planking laid over two
>
> Funny, I always interpreted this as bowls of soup or custard, seeing as how
> there's a guy in the back tilting it back like a drinking bowl? Or am I
> misremembering?
>
> --AM
I'm working for memory also so we both may be wrong. It is also possible
there may be a series of paintings of the same subject. The one I'm
remember has a couple husky fellows lugging the pies around in the
foreground.
Bear
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 02:41:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: cclark at vicon.net
Subject: SC - Edible pastry (was: The first fish recipe)
Kerri (Cedrin Etainnighean, OL) wrote:
> ... Also, what sources
>make distinctions between edible and inedible dough coverings?
Thanks for posing these precise questions. I was being a little too vague in
my previous remarks, and going on memory rather than consulting better sources.
I don't recall any that actually make that particular distinction, but as I
recall _The_English_Huswife_, ed. by Markham, has a group of pie crust
recipes ranging from coarse to fine & short. But it's in the library, and
the library is closed at this hour. Anyway it's relatively modern (slightly
after 1600), though it looks like a likely indication of what earlier
practices *might* have been.
_A_Proper_newe_Booke_of_Cokerye_, in Duke Cariadoc's collection, often makes
some specific mention of what kind of pastry is used, what is in it, or
(sometimes) even how to make it. Usually it's a short pastry. Here are some
examples, starting early in the book and proceding from there. Page numbers
are from the 1987 edition.
"a Custarde" (p. 23/C7) says that the coffin must first be hardened in the
oven, and then is filled with a cream and sugar custard with raisins and
dates, and choice of butter or marrow. No further instructions for the crust.
"pyes of grene apples" (p. 29/C8) calls for a coffin made with "a lyttle
fayre water and half a dyche of butter and a little Saffron," heated, mixed
with flour and two egg whites, and assembled in a two crust pie.
"chekins in lyke paest" (pp. 29-31/C8-C9) describes chickens baked in the
same pastry as the "grene apples," with fruit and butter. After it's baked,
it says "drawe youre baken chekins" and serve with a sauce of verjuice and
egg yolks. The recipe does not mention whether the chickens are served in
the pastry. The next recipe calls for pigeons, spices, and verjuice, baked
in the same pastry. At the end, it says "If ye think theym drye, take a
lyttle vergis and butter and put to theim and serve theym."
"pescoddes" (p. 33/C9) are spiced marrow fried in a pastry described as
follows: "make youre paeste as fyne as ye canne, and as shorte and thyn as
ye canne." The next recipe, "stock frytures," is cooked in the same pastry,
and may be fried or baked.
"a pye of alowes" (p. 35/C10) is filled with dried fruit, hard egg yolks,
herbs and spices, all rolled in thin slices of mutton, plus spices, more
hard egg yolks, and dried fruit. It is baked in an unspecified pastry, and
then a spiced syrup is poured in before serving.
The next few pages (37-41/C10-C11) have recipes for tarts. First comes the
recipe for "short paest for tarte:" flour, water, butter, saffron, and egg
yolks. It looks like the only definite proportion stated is a dish of butter
to two egg yolks. The tarts that follow are filled with beans, various
fruits and flowers, spinach, and cheese.
"couer tarte after the frenche fashyan" (p. 45/C12) has two crusts; the
crusts are described as "cakes of fyne paeste." The filling is a sweet cream
custard.
Earlier recipes that call for pastry tend not to specify the kind of pastry,
except for the rare inclusion of a sometimes incomplete ingredient list,
such as the eggs or almond milk in the dough for cuskyn ... Am I allowed to
mention those here? What the heck:
Cuskynoles! :-)
I get the impression that in the earlier sources pastry is more often
described for things like rissoles, turnovers, or dumplings, rather than for
pies and tarts. Perhaps that means that there was more variety for the
former, while the latter were baked with just one or two standard types of
pastry. Maybe the former were more often cooked in fine, sweet, or short
pastry. Or maybe not. Who knows? (That's not necessarily a rhetorical question.)
If I were to leap to conclusions now, I would guess that almost any pie from
the late middle ages or renaissance (at least in England) could have been
baked in a short pastry, but that some types, such as savory meat pies,
might have been cooked in a coarser and less buttery crust. The "Proper newe
Booke" seems to prefer egg whites in the pastry for two crust pies and yolks
for one crust tarts. Some fried foods in pastry seem to have used
unshortened pastry, while others used a pastry as short as the cook could
handle without tearing (see "pescoddes" above).
Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:58:16 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Edible pastry (was: The first fish recipe)
At 2:41 AM -0400 9/7/99, cclark at vicon.net wrote:
>Kerri (Cedrin Etainnighean, OL) wrote:
>> ... Also, what sources
>>make distinctions between edible and inedible dough coverings?
I'm not convinced they used inedible dough, although it's possible. There
seems to be a distinction between paste and short paste. I think a possible
interpretation of the evidence is that "paste" normally means flour and
water (and probably salt) kneaded to a dough, that it was edible (that is
how I do Icelandic chicken, and the casing is edible--even the top part
that hasn't soaked in the fat and juices) but relatively tough, like a hard
pizza dough rather than a pie crust. In practice it might not all get
eaten, and the remains might be sent out to the poor at the gate, of fed to
the pigs or something. So "paste" is dough optimized as a container, "short
paste" is optimized as food (and contains fat), but each also serves the
other purpose.
Does anyone have clear evidence that that interpretation is wrong? I'm
basing it on my experience with making "paste" in that sense, plus the
general idea that people would be reluctant to routinely waste flour on
something nobody could eat when they could always use crockery containers
instead.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:26:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - four and twenty blackbirds
On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Cindy Renfrow wrote:
> The problem is that the flour used to fill the coffin hardened
> into a chalky mass. I've chipped away at it, & finally managed to remove
> it all without breaking the bottom crust. (The bottom crust was not stiff
> enough, so I've popped it back in the oven at 400F.) My question is, can
> my 6 lbs. of baked flour be re-used for another recipe?
I don't know what to do with the flour either, but I have an idea
for an alternative- my grandma, when baking bottom crusts for custard,
etc, used to put a couple of inches of dried beans in the bottom. She had
a tin of beans set aside for that- once you've baked them, they're next to
impossible to cook up for soup. Could you fill a whole shell with beans,
enough to support the top crust? I also seen to remember that
Williams-Sonoma had some bean-like things made of ceramics that were for
the same purpose, though beans are alot cheaper.
'Lainie
- -
Laura C. Minnick
University of Oregon
Department of English
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:57:48 EST
From: SigridPW at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - four and twenty blackbirds
fiondel at fastrans.net writes:
<< suggestion- next time, try using rice instead of flour. >>
Or beans, or blind pie crust weights....
Lady Giuglia
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 01:13:44 PST
From: "Linda Taylor" <lmt_inpnw at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Traps?
In regard to pies and tarts and what, if anything, they were baked in, I did
some checking on this a few months back when I taught a class on hot water
pastry for our monthly Baronial culinary night.
I noticed that there actually seemed to be two distinct types of pie/tart
referred to in period pictures and texts. One was generally called _Pie_,
was as tall or taller than it was wide, seems to have been made with
hot-water pastry, and was generally made by specialized pie-makers, and
baked in a full-size oven. The other was called _Tart_ (or torte, torta). It
was shallow and broad, as our modern American pies are, and was made with a
flour-water-olive oil pastry or any of several different kinds of
shortcrust, but not hot-water pastry. It could be baked at home, on the
hearth, in a lidded pan with coals placed both beneath the pan and on top of
the lid, making a small oven of the pan itself. The filling for a Pie could
include whole, unboned poultry or joints of meat (though it did not always),
and seems to have often been served by scooping the contents out of the
crust after the lid was removed (the lid being put back on the leftovers to
save them for the next day). Tarts, on the other hand, were filled with
fine-textured mixtures, which could be sliced, and served, with the crust.
The hot-water pastry crust of the Pie was sturdy enough that it would hold
its shape in the oven without benefit of a pan (indeed, that was largely the
point), and so it was baked without one. The (usually) more tender and
thinly-rolled dough of the Tart needed more support, not only for its own
sake, but also because it was frequently filled with fillings like custard
or applesauce which were fairly liquid before being baked. The dough for a
Tart was laid in a _trap_, a pie pan/pie plate, before it was filled. Pies
always had a top crust, which was necessary to keep the filling moist during
the long baking their deep shape required. Tarts could have a top crust or
not, as they were shallow, and baked relatively quickly.
I would be interested to hear if others have gotten these impressions as
well.
A couple of specific references:
I am looking at some drawings from _Opera_ by Bartolomeo Scappi, 1570, as
reproduced in Elizabeth David's _Italian Cooking_ (the 1996 edition with all
the pretty pictures). The drawings are of cooking equipment. He shows
several round pans which he labels _tortere_. One has sloping sides and is
very shallow,looking very much like an American pie pan. Another has
straight sides and is slightly deeper (there is no scale here, but if the
pans were 9 inches in diameter, I would say the first would be about 1 inch
deep, the second about 1-1/2 inches). Then there are pans labelled _padelle
da torta alte_ which are slightly deeper (1-1/2 to 2 inches, again assuming
a 9 inch diameter) and have a shallow rim around the top edge as well. One
of these appears to have a torta with a lattice-top in it! He also shows a
_tortera con il coperto_, an assemblage of one of the shallower tortere
sitting on/in a short, 3-legged base, with a sort of inverted pan on longer
legs above it for a lid. There are other items labelled _coperchi per
tortere_ which appear to be another sort of lid - they look like nothing so
much as the flat, broad-brimmed hats worn by Cardinals. Unfortunately, I do
not have a picture of these pans actually in use, but Platina's recipes for
torte seem to refer to these same arrangements.
From the same Elizabeth David book, a reproduction of a late 15th Century
fresco in Val d'Aosta shows a pie-baker's shop. One man is spreading a lump
of dough out by pressing with his hands, while another is using a peel to
put a completed pie into a large oven built into the wall. Many more pies
await on the counter. They are all the same shape, cylindrical with a
slightly domed top, but of varying sizes. The majority look to be about 8
inches across and 5 inches high, with some smaller ones about 6x4 inches,
and a large one about 10x5 inches. They appear to be free-standing, and
there are no molds or pans pictured in the shop.
Hope this helps. There's more, but I gotta get to bed.
Morwyn of Wye, O.L.
Barony of Three Mountains, An Tir
(Portland, OR, USA)
mka Linda Taylor, lmt_inpnw at hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:31:16 EST
From: Elysant at aol.com
Subject: SC - Pies and Tarts
Morwyn wrote:
>I noticed that there actually seemed to be two distinct types of pie/tart
>referred to in period pictures and texts. One was generally called _Pie_,
>was as tall or taller than it was wide, seems to have been made with
>hot-water pastry, and was generally made by specialized pie-makers, and
>baked in a full-size oven. The other was called _Tart_ (or torte, torta). It
>was shallow and broad, as our modern American pies are, and was made with a
>flour-water-olive oil pastry or any of several different kinds of
>?shortcrust, but not hot-water pastry.
I think generally this still holds true with pies and tarts in Britain today.
Pork pies and another pie of a veal and ham combination with whole hard
boiled eggs in the middle, to name two, are hot water pastry pies, with thick
crusts, and both are very deep pies, Pork pie "sides" measure almost, if not
more than the diameter of the top crust, and usually they are smaller and
round shaped. The veal and ham pies, on the other hand, are a long loaf
shape, and look square when viewed "edge on" (like a long brick).
Inside these pies, there is usually just a solid chunk of minced meat, or
meat and whole hard boiled eggs. They are usually eaten cold, and are
popular "pub food". I believe both pies to have come down to us from quite
some time back, but I do not have documentation as to how old they really are
unfortunately.
"Tarts" continue still to be constructed as m'lady Morwyn states.
>It could be baked at home, on the
>hearth, in a lidded pan with coals placed both beneath the pan and on top of
>the lid, making a small oven of the pan itself.
Using this method of cooking cakes is found in traditional Welsh recipes
also, one version of "Teisen Lap" that I posted a while back has this
method, but no coals on top of the lid.
Also, I have a "very old and good" Welsh pie recipe wherein the meat and
vegetables are placed in a dish, 2 inches of water is poured on top, a crust
is added, the pie is then cooked, the bones and onion and salt and pepper are
boiled together seperately as the pie is baking, and this stock is then
strained and poured into the pie, on top of the filling, before the pie is
served.
I'm wondering if there are any other pie recipes people know that are
prepared like this?
Also, this recipe is for a one crust pie. Is there any documentation as to
whether one crust or two crust pies are earlier in origin? I seem to
remember this was brought up a while ago here, but I might be mistaken...
Elysant
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:44:34 -0500
From: "Bethany Public Library" <betpulib at ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Traps?
Actually, the crust in which the meat pies were often cooked could be
referred to as Coffins in many English recipes. Sometimes one might
receive the instruction to "raise" the coffin. Now, if one were deceased,
that might prove an interesting feat. However, the coffin was actually a
box-shape (coffin being a generic word for Box in Middle English, IIRC), and
the contents of the coffin was usually fowl or pork or game, rarely beef,
though there are always exceptions. Naturally I don't have my sources with
me here at work, but I have looked into it in the past. Usta teach a class
on the subject. My favorite English butcher has departed this earth, but she
always made her Melton Mowbray pies square or rectangular, using just such a
, well, not a ring, but a bottomless rectangle with a rolled upper edge.
That's not evidence of period practice, however, just a fond memory.
Raising the coffin referred to the process of using a stiff dough to mold
the shape: perhaps with the aid of a trap (mold), perhaps not. I know that
clay pot-making skills have always been handy for me, and sometimes I use
the outside of a handy container for the mold. We know those solid pies were
meant to stand on their own after cooking, without the aid of a pan or form.
You'd need a very hard-baking, stiff crust to do that. It has been
postulated that the crust, at least in earlier pies, was meant to be
discarded and was used primarily for containment (I have even read a
description of the crust in a modern discussion as part of those ubiquitous
"alms" that were given to the poor though I am not sure if this is
verifiable). There is no doubt that the contents were the main "thing"
however, and the crust may have served the purpose of a temporary container,
helping to preserve the food inside for a few more days of it's limited
shelf life.
Adamantius could probably give us a good exposition on the make-up of a
good, hard crust, if he was feeling so inclined on this nice spring day. I
go for hot-water crust myself, made with real butter. Butter always hardens
well for me, and is much harder than most other fats are when cold IMO. I
usually need the use of a collar to restrain the sides of the pie while
baking.
And given my modern background, I usually serve meat pies cold. How else
would done get that wonderful, flavorful jelly?
Aoife
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:32:28 -0600
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - RE:SC Traps
Aoife comments:
>>>Adamantius could probably give us a good exposition on the make-up of a
good, hard crust, if he was feeling so inclined on this nice spring day. I
go for hot-water crust myself, made with real butter. Butter always hardens
well for me, and is much harder than most other fats are when cold IMO. I
usually need the use of a collar to restrain the sides of the pie while
baking.<<<
I have always made my Melton Mowbrays in raised pastry coffins, though
usually round. Hi-gluten flour and boiling lard are what I use to make the
dough, coiling on an inch thick base like making pottery. This is what
Elisabeth Ayrton instructs in _Provential English Cooking_. She notes
that her recipe comes from the 14th century. Arundel Castle I think.
Actually, the crust if you pour in sufficient stock becomes quite tasty
and a good deal usually is eaten by the feasters in my experience (about
a third of the crust)
Akim Yaroslavich
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:21:50 -0600
From: "Rhonda New" <rbnew at ftw.nrcs.usda.gov>
Subject: Re: SC - pie crust advice
Greetings from Lady Elizabeth Hawkwood of Elfsea.
I have done meat pies for feast (several days ahead - some
were frozen, some were refrigerated) and had no problem
with the bottom crust being soggy. All the pie dough was
made from "scratch." (Food processor yielded a tougher
dough, mixing by hand was much softer/flakier.) I never
oil the bottom of the pan, but I sometimes dust it with flour.
When I do meat pies at home for dinner, I use a cake pan
with straight sides instead of the slanted side pie pan. This
works great, too, and I've never had a soggy bottom - only
nice slices which can be held in the hand.
Perhaps it's the length of time spent baking? And, if the
meat mixture is not too soupy.
/Ly Elizabeth
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:14:41 EST
From: allilyn at juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - pie crust advice
>> I personally
deplore uncooked/soggy bottom crust, and since it's *MY* feast, I want to
do everything I can to make sure the bottom crust bakes up nice & dry and
intact.<<
Buy some extra beans--northern, pea, whatever sort of dry beans, or rice,
you get a good deal on. Use them to 'blind bake' your pie shells, before
the filling goes in. Any good modern cook book should have a description
of the process, and times, etc. I'm with you--soggy bottom crusts are
yucky.
You can use a foil 'collar' around the edge to keep the crust there from
overcooking or burning. Just take it off when you add the top crust, or
lattice, or whatever you are using for the topper. Brushing the baked
bottom crust with some egg yolk mixed with a little water will help to
seal it, too.
Allison, allilyn at juno.com
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:25:11 -0800
From: Kerri Canepa <kerric at pobox.alaska.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Lard
Maredudd begins:
>I'll use lard in preference to butter (unless the recipe calls for butter)
>for the reasons cited by Niccolo, and because lard is somewhat better for us
>than butter.
and then states some interesting dietary info about lard.
Thanks for quoting the particulars; I _knew_ I'd heard that lard was better than
butter in terms of diet.
With that in mind, I'll agree that lard makes wonderfully flaky pastry. It,
however, makes a terrible crust for a free standing tall coffin shape. You look
at it funny and you have a pile of flakes. Don't even think about trying to cut
through it.
What I'd like to know is what type of pastry would work best for a free standing
coffin? Or would a dough be a better idea?
Cedrin
Princess Oertha
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:54:58 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Lard
kerric at pobox.alaska.net writes:
> What I'd like to know is what type of pastry would work best for a free
> standing coffin? Or would a dough be a better idea?
Is this "coffin" supposed to be edible, or merely for a
centerpiece/decoration effect? If it is meant to be edible, you may want to
consider a cream cheese pastry (substitute half the fat with cream cheese,
and proceed with the recipe as usual). If it is merely decorative, a good
salt dough is probably the best way to go. Salt dough has been used for a
long time for all manner of centerpiece and dough sculpture work, and is very
easy to make and mold. It doesn't taste particularly good, nor is it flaky
(rather like plaster of paris when it is baked), but it will hold its shape
come Heck or High Water...
Balthazar of Blackmoor
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:29:15 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - Re: Lard
Cedrin remarks:
>>>>With that in mind, I'll agree that lard makes wonderfully flaky pastry. It,
however, makes a terrible crust for a free standing tall coffin shape. You look
at it funny and you have a pile of flakes. Don't even think about trying to
cut through it. <<<<
Whoa!!! You must be doing something wrong. The
English have been using lard to make tall coffin pyes
like Melton Mowbrays for 500 years! Lard is the ONLY
good period ingredient for making tall coffins. Are you
using a high gluten flour and pouring in the lard boiling.
I have no trouble making 8" or so high coffins. I can
even do high relief sculpture on the lids with it. The pyes
are very free standing. Did you prebake your crust
shell slightly to set it before filled it? That is often
nescessary with very large and tall coffins. "Setting"
the shell properly depends on the right procedures
in mixing dough and having correct oven temperature
control. In modern gas ovens I find I have to protect
the top crust though as the top clearances are less
than traditional dome ovens and it will darken too
fast and burn instead of a glorious golden brown.
Incidentally, you also need to liberally paint the shell
in beaten egg yolk too for best results.
Akim Yaroslavich
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:38:42 -0600
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
Subject: SC - Re: hand-grinding wheat and sturdy pastry crusts
Re: wheat grinding. According to the documentation, she used a lava
millstone and grinding roller, and hand-ground the wheat.
Oh, and the recipe she used for her pastry castle, the walls and turrets
of which were around the thickness of your average graham cracker, and
both sturdy and edible, used a mix of flour, lard, butter, egg yolk, and
a bit of cheese. She notes a source that talks about pastry being
hard/strong "because it was often made with little fat." Perhaps that's
the key to making pastry less flaky. Her finished product had a texture
quite similar to that of a cracker.
- --Maire
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:53:25 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - Re: Lard
Balthazar says:
>>>>Allright...I think I am clueless again. Can anyone send me the recipe
for
this? I would like to see what you are talking about. I think my idea of a
"coffin" pastry is different than the one you folks are thinking of.<<<<
Here is the recipe I use for raised (coffin) pyes:
1 Kg high gluten wheat flour (2.2 lb.) (NEVER self rising)
15g Salt (1 Tbsp)
1/2 Kg Lard (1.1 lb.)
1.5 dl milk (5/8 cup)
1.5 dl water (5/8 cup)
2 large eggs well beaten
1 stick butter
Sift the flour and salt together and rub the
firm butter into the flour with the fingertips
until crumbly. Boil the lard with the milk and
water. (Warning: do not add either to already
boiling lard. Bring them to a boil together!)
Make a well in your mixed flour and pour in the
boiling (actually boiling, not just hot) lard. Stir
with a stout wood spoon until cooled enough to
knead with your bare hands... still very hot, mind
you. You may wear rubber gloves, but I find the
very hot dough and grease to be very good for
my arthiritis and very moisturizing to the skin.
Knead well and let stand for 10 minutes.
Roll out some of the dough for the bottom of
the coffin 2cm to 3cm thick (3/4" to1 1/4" +/-)
and cut to shape of pye (round is easiest) and
about 1cm (1/3") bigger than you think you want
the finished coffin to be. The dough/ paste must be
worked while hot or at least warm. The taller the coffin,
the thicker the base and walls required, so adjust
your dough amounts prepared accordingly. Build
up the sides with coiled dough like a potter builds
a pot until you get it the height you want. Smooth
the outsides carefully outside and in, always working
the paste upwards. If you are using a soild meat
filling like small pieces of pork with currants and such,
you can pack it in solidly and put on a lid piece without
setting the pastry. If your filling is more liquid like
a fruit filling, you will need to set the form before filling.
I recommend using long sheets of aluminum foil folded
several times lengthwise to make a kind of "bellyband"
to help keep the form from bowing or collapsing. I use
paperclips to hold the joined folds of foil closed.
Brush the pye with the beaten egg, reserving some for later.
Bake at 190C (375F, Gas Mark 5) for 20 minutes to set
the pastry. If already filled, reduce to 170C (325F, Gas Mark
3) to continue baking. If not filled, cool and fill, then bake at
170C (325F, Gas Mark 3). Obviously, the filling will have
a great deal to do with the time of baking required, as will
the size of your creation. A soild raw meat filling will take 1 3/4
to 2 1/2 hours for a largish pye like this one. Fruit/ mincemeat
will take about 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Success requires some
experimentation, but generally even the failures are delicious.
About 10 minutes before the end of cooking time, baste the
whole thing with the remaining beaten egg to give the pastry
a good gold gloss. Let the pye become quite cool before
serving.
A few notes: For the pork pye, trim picnic shoulder to bite
sized gobbets, including fat (but not skin or gristle). Season
with fresh rubbed sage, basil, salt and pepper; maybe some
rosemary or galingale if you like the taste). Leave a 5cm (2") hole
in the top crust to let out steam and to pour in some reduced
stock if you like to fill the pye after it comes out of the oven.
You can use leftover paste/dough to ornament the lid with
flowers or heraldic critters. It is very easy to do fairly elaborate
sculpture as long as you do it in high relief and not freestanding.
Baste liberally with beaten egg and use foil tents to keep it from
browning unevenly. For the less adventuresome, I suggest using
a large springform to mold the coffin, however, the bottom and
sides must still be thick so as not to fall apart from the weight of
the filling when you release it from the form.
This is not a period method, though I assume pyes were raised
by the coil method in period. I would think they had some kind
of clay pottery forms though, as they made these quite reqularly,
whereas a special form for our ocassional use is not very
practical. The dough ingredients are traditional to English cookery,
allegedly back to the 14th century. Of late, the English have been
substituting half of the lard with butter though. The particular
recipe for Melton Mowbray Pyes supposedly has its roots in 14th c.
Arundel Castle. Perhaps some of our list members across the pond
could see if they can find a period source from there?
Have fun experimenting!
Akim Yaroslavich
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:48:30 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>
Subject: Re: SC -Mus, Brei and confusion
Adamantius (long may he wave) did write:
> Oh, definitely! A terrine, though, is generally made from raw meat,
> etc., packed into an earthenware pot/mold, and baked, while a mortrews
> is, as far as I know, invariably made from minced, and pounded,
> previously cooked meat, then thickened with bread or other starchy
> stuff.
Heiatt has a Caudon of Beef in an "Ordinance of Pottage", which reads
as a minced beef mixture, which is molded, and cooked in a "Coffin".
> As for the idea of mortrews being molded, it's a nice idea, and
> makes sense, but how much evidence do you really have for this actually
> being done? It occurs to me that unless you have a recipe or a specific
> reference to mortrews in connection with molds, a feast description, or
> some such (which you may actually have, for all I know), it would be
> hard to make that strong a case for it. Of course it's still perfectly
> viable as speculation.
My personal theory is that they used Prebaked molded shells of Coffin dough
as baking dishes. Then the Dough could be broken off and given to the
staff, or given out with the crusts to the poor.
Certainly a number of forcemeat type recipes seem to be placed in coffins
but dont otherwise read like pie recipes. I think that it is likely that they
used coffin dough a lot like we sometimes bake with aluminum foil today,
as a disposible dish or dish liner to aid cleanup.
FWIW, a hard coffin shell, infused with meat juices, egg, and fat would
be dandy dog fare, and I think a thrifty household would find a way use
them, without waste.
brandu
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:39:48 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tur-duc-kin Q and A
<snip>
Bear most ably answered the query about pies and
the word pie. One might keep in mind that the English
today tend to call open-faced (single crust) fruit pies
"tarts". We here in the USA still call them pies, despite
the foodie craze of the last 20 years where fancied up
ones were called "tarts".
Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Dough was ([Sca-cooks] za'atar seeds and more)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:07:02 -0600
If the recipe actually says "take dough" rather than "take flour," I would
say that it is a flour and water dough possibly with a little salt. It
might also be a sourdough to help the pastry puff up when it is fried.
However, an unleavened dough will work fine. I tend to use a German recipe
for this kind of thing.
I am of the opinion the original dough should be a little stiff. The egg
and the oil will shorten and soften it. I would try 1 egg and 1 tablespoon
of oil to 1-1 1/2 cups of dough as a starting point. I might also suggest
using soft flour to reduce the gluten.
Bear
Just for reference, here's the German dough recipe from Sabina Welserin I
tend to use as a thinly rolled wrapper:
61 To make a pastry dough for all shaped pies
Take flour, the best that you can get, about two handfuls, depending on how
large or small you would have the pie. Put it on the table and with a knife
stir in two eggs and a little salt. Put water in a small pan and a piece of
fat the size of two good eggs, let it all dissolve together and boil.
Afterwards pour it on the flour on the table and make a strong dough and
work it well, however you feel is right. If it is summer, one must take meat
broth instead of water and in the place of the fat the skimmings from the
broth. When the dough is kneaded, then make of it a round ball and draw it
out well on the sides with the fingers or with a rolling pin, so that in the
middle a raised area remains, then let it chill in the cold. Afterwards
shape the dough as I have pointed out to you. Also reserve dough for the
cover and roll it out into a cover and take water and spread it over the top
of the cover and the top of the formed pastry shell and join it together
well with the fingers. Leave a small hole. And see that it is pressed
together well, so that it does not come open. Blow in the small hole which
you have left, then the cover will lift itself up. Then quickly press the
hole closed. Afterwards put it in the oven. Sprinkle flour in the dish
beforehand. Take care that the oven is properly heated, then it will be a
pretty pastry. The dough for all shaped pastries is made in this manner.
> Lastly, can anyone help me with a dough made from flour, egg and oil? It
> will wrap a filling and be fried, then covered with honey and sugar. The
> recipe says take a dough and kneed in egg and good sweet oil.
> Does this mean a water and flour dough, then the egg and oil or just flour,
> egg and oil.
> Recipe is 1520 Catalan.
>
> Kay
From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pie Crust
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 18:16:04 -0400
<quoth Mistress Christiana>
> I have been asked a question that I'd like to pass on to the group.
> "One of these days I will do some food entries. So tell me, how
> do you document pie crust? Was that common item ever written down?"
>
> Is Digby the best place to recommend, or is there something earlier?
I am certain that good gentles such as Bear will have many more thoughts,
but the one that sprang to my mind was in Sabina Welserin - German 1553. I
have found two in the manuscript and I am not certain the difference in
intent between them. I am more inclined towards 70 for normal pies and
tarts. 61 seems to be more for a freextanding coffin style pie, but i could
be wrong.
61 To make a pastry dough for all shaped pies
Take flour, the best that you can get, about two handfuls, depending on how
large or small you would have the pie. Put it on the table and with a knife
stir in two eggs and a little salt. Put water in a small pan and a piece of
fat the size of two good eggs, let it all dissolve together and boil.
Afterwards pour it on the flour on the table and make a strong dough and
work it well, however you feel is right. If it is summer, one must take meat
broth instead of water and in the place of the fat the skimmings from the
broth. When the dough is kneaded, then make of it a round ball and draw it
out well on the sides with the fingers or with a rolling pin, so that in the
middle a raised area remains, then let it chill in the cold. Afterwards
shape the dough as I have pointed out to you. Also reserve dough for the
cover and roll it out into a cover and take water and spread it over the top
of the cover and the top of the formed pastry shell and join it together
well with the fingers. Leave a small hole. And see that it is pressed
together well, so that it does not come open. Blow in the small hole which
you have left, then the cover will lift itself up. Then quickly press the
hole closed. Afterwards put it in the oven. Sprinkle flour in the dish
beforehand. Take care that the oven is properly heated, then it will be a
pretty pastry. The dough for all shaped pastries is made in this manner.
70 A tart with plums, which can be dried or fresh
Let them cook beforehand in wine and strain them and take eggs, cinnamon and
sugar. Bake the dough for the tart. That is made like so: take two eggs and
beat them. Afterwards stir flour therein until it becomes a thick dough.
Pour it on the table and work it well, until it is ready. After that take
somewhat more than half the dough and roll it into a flat cake as wide as
you would have your tart. Afterwards pour the plums on it and roll out after
that the other crust and cut it up, however you would like it, and put it on
top over the tart and press it together well and let it bake. So one makes
the dough for a tart.
I haven't tried it yet, but I need to if I am going to make a Cinnamon tart
from scratch. Now if I can only figure out what size/shape it might be.
Glad Tidings,
Serena da Riva
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:15:18 -0400
From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Pie Crusts
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I have made pie crusts and such and for some reason have never had any
problem - you can probably chalk it up to luck. That being said, I have a
crust recipit that pretty much takes all of the touchy feely aspects out of
it and hot hands do not enter into the picture:
> From Sabina Welserin #61 To make a pastry dough for all shaped pies
Take flour, the best that you can get, about two handfuls, depending on how
large or small you would have the pie. Put it on the table and with a knife
stir in two eggs and a little salt. Put water in a small pan and a piece of
fat the size of two good eggs, let it all dissolve together and boil.
Afterwards pour it on the flour on the table and make a strong dough and
work it well, however you feel is right. If it is summer, one must take meat
broth instead of water and in the place of the fat the skimmings from the
broth. When the dough is kneaded, then make of it a round ball and draw it
out well on the sides with the fingers or with a rolling pin, so that in the
middle a raised area remains, then let it chill in the cold. ...
My interpretation:
3 C - Flour
1 t - Kosher salt
2 - Eggs, beaten
1/3 C - Water
1/3 +1/4 C – Lard
Measure flour into a goodly size bowl and add salt. Stir together with a
knife. Crack eggs into a separate bowl and beat moderately, add eggs to
flour mixture and cut together with a knife until you all egg has been
absorbed and you have a crumbly textured flour. In a small saucepan combine
water and lard, melt and bring to a boil. Add boiling lard mixture to bowl
and combine until well mixed and cool enough to handle. Turn out onto table
and knead a bit, adding flour if the dough is sticky or greasy. Pat dough
into a disk shape and wrap with plastic - place in refrigerator. Allow to
cool for at least an hour. Roll out on a well floured surface. This makes
enough for two tarts or one covered tart.
I have also made this subbing shortening for the lard and I go with 2/3 C of
shortening. The resulting dough is easier to work with than the lard based
dough. The lard based dough can be a bit fiddly when you roll it out, if it
gets too warm it starts tearing and sticking. I have only had this problem
when making many small tarts out of a doubled recipie. To fix that I have
taken to making sure that the dough is seperated into single crust disks and
kept in the fridge until needed. And if it gets too warm when I am working
with it I just re-wrap it and chuck it back into the fridge and work
with another disk.
The other thing I have found is that if it is allowed to stay in the fridge
for more than a couple of hours the dough gets tough. I once kept it
overnight and the crust I formed the next day was very tough and didn't have
the nice flavor that it does initially. Conversely, once the crust is
baked it keeps very well.
If you feel like trying this please let me know how your crust comes
out and if my instructions are confusing in any way.
Hope this helps.
Glad Tidings,
Serena da Riva
> Samrah [or anyone else for that matter]: I have never managed to learn
> the Dao of Pie Crusts, which is more of an art than a mere craft.
> Could you teach me?
>
> Humbly, Selene C.
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:58:28 -0400
From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Pie Crusts was Re: [Sca-cook] Cookies was hello there
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
ahrenshav> Neither have I, because you have to have cold
ahrenshav> hands t make proper pie crusts and mine are
ahrenshav> always too hot and will melt the butter, which is
ahrenshav> a no-no.
ahrenshav>
ahrenshav> Huette
You can make crusts with hot hands. I use to make them in a very
hot high humidity kitchen! The tric is to work quickly. Do not
overwork the crust. I used ice water as well (a trick I picked up from
a visitor). Not period but effective. Most people think they are
harder then they are and fuss with them to much. The fussing destroys
them.
Ranald deBalinhard,
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 06:50:25 -0400
From: "Avraham haRofeh of Sudentur" <goldbergr1 at cox.net>
Subject: Re: Pie Crusts was Re: [Sca-cooks] Cookies was helo there
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Samrah [or anyone else for that matter]: I have never managed to learn
> the Dao of Pie Crsts, which is more of an art than a mere craft.
> Could you teach me?
1. Keep everything COLD COLD COLD.
2. Use your food processor to work in the butter/shortening/lard - use
1-second pulses, until the chunks of fat are the size of peas.
3. Use iced water. Use the MINIMUM amount of water necessary to bring
the mass together - more water = more gluten, which is tough.
4. Do NOT overwork the dough. It's better to leave some flour behind
than to overwork the dough.
5. Use a light hand when dusting thecounter to roll out the dough.
6. Use a French rolling pin, it gives you more control.
7. When it's the right size, dust the top of the dough LIGHTLY, then roll it
onto your pin to carry it to the pie plate. Brush the excess flour away with
a pastry bruh/paint brush once it's in the pan.
Hope these tips help.
Avraham
*******************************************************
Reb Avraham haRofeh of Sudentur
(mka Randy Goldberg MD)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:52:59 -0400
From: "Generys ferch Ednuyed" <generys at blazemail.com>
Subject: RE: Pie Crusts was Re: [Sca-cooks] Cookies was hello there
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Samrah [or anyone else for that matter]: I have never managed to learn
> the Dao of Pie Crusts, which is more of an art than a mere craft.
> Could you teach me?
>
> Humbly, Selene C.
Selene,
My tricks for insuring flaky pie crusts are some that I got from a book
called "Butter, Sugar, Flour, Eggs", which is my favorite mundane
dessert cookbook. They are:
1. Stick your pastry marble and rolling pin, also pref. marble, in the
freezer while making your dough.
2. Use ice water for the liquid in said dough, also, add a teaspoon or so
of vinegar per batch (top and bottom crust for a pie worth). This prevents
gluten from forming, and is imperceptible in the final crust.
3. Chill your hands in ice water as much as possible before working
with dough.
(All these "chill everything" steps keep the butter from melting, so it
can make flaky bits later...)
Generys
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:13:43 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] torte vs. tart
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
At 01:00 -0600 2003-11-30, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>> Indeed, my wife has made me suspicious that a lot of the "tart" recipes
>> in the translations of Sabina Welserin (and Guter Spise?) really ARE
>> "torte" and not "tarts" at all...
> Ok, so what is the difference between a "torte" and a "tart"? Tarts
> are pies without a top pastry shell or even lacing, right?
That's probably going to depend very much on the country and / or
cookbook that you consult. There's no 'right' answer.
Since we're generally dealing with European cuisine when we talk
about historical food, I tend to go with Larousse Gastronomique
(1961) as being the most typically 'European' source of modern
cooking terms.
The 'tart' in Larousse is exclusively sweet, and comes in versions
without upper crusts, with upper crusts, and with pastry lattices.
The 'tourte' in Larousse is a two-crust savoury main dish. The
author says "There are also sweet tourtes, but these are really
tarts...."
The 'torte', another creature entirely, is a (Germanic) cake.
Thorvald
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:05:16 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] torte vs. tart
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> Indeed, my wife has made me suspicious that a lot of the "tart" recipes
>> in the translations of Sabina Welserin (and Guter Spise?) really ARE
>> "torte" and not "tarts" at all...
> Ok, so what is the difference between a "torte" and a "tart"? Tarts are
> pies without a top pastry shell or even lacing, right?
>
> Stefan
There is no difference in German. "Torte" can mean pie, flan, tart or a
flat cake. You start getting specific when you modify the noun with a
prefix, as in "Linzertorte." To make matters more confusing, sometimes the
prefix is used to describe two different things. "Obsttorte" is used to
describe both tarts and flans, although it is common to drop the "Obst"
when referring to a tart.
As near as I can tell, the derivation of all European forms of "tart"
Are from the Latin "torta" meaning "flat cake."
Bear
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:39:22 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Standing crust
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Also sprach Nancy Kiel:
>I've had good luck using 18th & 19th century receipts (haven't had
>occasion to research a period standing crust). They called for
>boiling the fat & water together, and a lot of kneading.
>Also, I thought a "standing crust" meant more specifically a
>completely closed pie form, not intended to be eaten.
A standing crust is one made independently of a pie pan or pate mold.
It... stands. Modern ones, at least, are intended to be eaten, as in
English pork pies, that sort of thing.
One of the things about hot-water doughs is that period pie doughs
seem to occasionally, or maybe often, call for egg yolks. (See Ein
Buoch Von Guter Spise, Digby, etc.) You can't boil the liquid to add
to your pastry if the liquid is egg yolk, so even though there's a
lot of talk about raising a coffin, these are presumably made with a
cold pastry. Or at least, the small bits of evidence we have would
seem to point that way, if not conclusively.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:38:10 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Standing crust
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 17, 2004, at 6:56 PM, Nancy Kiel wrote:
> I've had good luck using 18th & 19th century receipts (haven't had
> occasion to research a period standing crust). They called for
> boiling the fat & water together, and a lot of kneading.
> Also, I thought a "standing crust" meant more specifically a
> completely closed pie form, not intended to be eaten. Out of
> curiousity, what receipt/idea are you basing your crust on?
The closest period recipe that I get to would probably be from "A
Proper newe Booke of Cokerye":
"To make short paest for tarte. Take fyne floure and a cursey of fayre
water and a dysche of swete butter and a lyttel saffron, and the
yolckes of two egges and make it thynne and as tender as ye maye."
That's about the earliest reference to a short crust that I've come
across. In the same source is a recipe for meat pies which has a note
at the end stating "and yf you wyll have paest royall, take butter and
yolkes of egges and so tempre the flowre to make the paeste."
Really though, I make no claim that what I made was period - the whole
topic seems to be something that's very hard to thoroughly document. I
was basically trying to see what I could do with short crust in the way
of making a serving dish.
- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)
http://www.medievalcookery.com/
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:52:54 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval History Magazine (was meatpastiesand
theirlongevity)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 23, 2004, at 11:54 AM, vicki shaw wrote:
> Well, the article does say that they experimented with the coffyn because
> they flt the period ones were probably unpalatablen and most likely
> discarded after the filling was reached and consumed. I am going to write
> to Stefan right now and give the recipe for the coffyn and the filling.
> Among the ingredients for the coffyns s 200 g of drippings. What is meant
> by that? would this be drippings from roasting meat, that has become solid
> at room temperature? I say that because in the recipe you are to put water
> and the drippings into a saucepan and simmer until the drippings melt.....
> Ok okay, you are getting it all back asswards here, but for those of
> you who may have the resource:
>
> "The original source for this recipe is Harleian MS. 279, in the section
> titled 'Dyuerese Bake Metis,' as reproduced by indy Renfrow nin Take a
> Thousand Eggs or More. An almost identical recipe occurs in Harleian MS.
> 4016, as well as a number of similar recipes with titles such as 'Tarte de
> chare' amd 'Another manere [of tartes]' and 'Doucettes' in MS. 279, and
Douce MS. "
Below are the relevant recipes from Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery
Books. In them I can find references to pre-baking the coffin, to
coloring it with saffron and egg yolks, and to putting a top crust on
it, but I do not see any notes about te thickness of the coffin walls,
whether they were edible, or the ingredients or methods used for making
them.
Are there any other sources or recipes mentioned to document their
methods? I am concerned that the "hot liquid fat poured into flour"
way of aking a crust is a (relatively) modern one that arose from a
faulty source or assumption and is unintentionally being promoted as
period without supporting evidence (e.g. probably period because it's
very rustic looking - thick and inedible).
From TFCB
[http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?
type=HTML&rgn=TEI.2&byte=3356093]
.I. Tartes de chare.--Take Freyssche Porke, & hew it, & grynd it on a
mortere; & take it vppe in-to a fayre vesselle; & take þe whyte an þe
3olkys of Eyroun, & strayne into Vesselle þorw a straynoure, &
tempere þin Porke þer-with; þan take Pynez, Roysonys of Coraunce, &
frye hem in freysshe grece, & caste þer-to pouder Pepir, & Gyngere,
Canelle, Sugre, Safroun, & Salt, & caste þer-to, & do it on a cofynne,
& plante þin cofyne a-boue with Pyne3, & kyt Datys, & gret Roysonys, &
smal byrdys, or ellys hard 3olkys of Eyroun; & 3if þou take byrdys,
frye hem on a lytel grece or þow putte hem on þin cofynne, & endore
with 3olkys of Eyroun, & Safroun, & lat bake til it be y-now, & srue
forth.
.xv. Doucete3.--Take Creme a gode cupfulle, & put it on a straynoure;
þanne take 3olkys of Eyroun & put þer-to, & a lytel mylke; þen strayne
it þorw a straynoure in-to a bolle; þen take Sugre y-now, & put þer-to,
or ellys hony forde faute of Sgre, þan coloure it with Safroun; þan
take þin cofyns, & put in þe ovynne lere, & lat hem ben hardyd; þan
take a dysshe y-fastenyd on þe pelys ende; & pore þin comade in-to þe
dyssche, & fro þe dyssche in-to þe cofyns; & when þey don a-ryse wel,
take hem ut, & serue hem forth.
Pye3 de pare3.--Take & smyte fayre buttys of Porke, & buttys of Vele,
to-gederys, & put it on a fayre potte, & do þer-to Freyssche broþe, & a
quantyte of wyne, & lat boyle alle to-gederys tyl yt be y-now; þan take
it fro þe fyre, &lat kele a lytelle; þan caste þer-to 3olkys of
Eyroun, & pouder of Gyngere, Sugre, & Salt, & mynced Datys, & Roysonys
of Coraunce; þen make fayre past, and cofynnys, & do þer-on; kyuer it,
& let bake, & serue f.
- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)
http://www.medievalcookery.com/
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:53:00 EST
From: KristiWhyKelly at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval History Magazine (was meatpastiesand
theirlongevity)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
While a little later than Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery books, this recipe
below from Sabrina Welserin's cook book does call for boiled water and
butter to be mixed with flour. It was then shaped baked then filled.
Grace
61 To make a pastry dough for all shaped pies
Take flour, the best that you can get, about two handfuls, depending on how large or small you would have the pie. Put it on the table and with a knife stir in two eggs and a little salt. Put water in a small pan an a piece of fat the size of two good eggs, let it all dissolve together and boil. Afterwards pour it on the flour on the table and make a strong dough and work it well, however you feel is right. If it is summer, one must take meat broth instead of water and in the place of the fat the skimmings from the broth. When the dough is kneaded, then make of it a round ball and draw it out well on the sides with the fingers or with a rolling pin, so that in the middle a raised area remains, then let it chillin the cold. Afterwards shape the dough as I have pointed out to you. Also reserve dough for the cover and roll it out into a cover and take water and spread it over the top of the cover and the top of the formed pastry shell and join it together well ith the fingers. Leave a small hole. And see that it is pressed together well, so that it does not come open. Blow in the small hole which you have left, then the cover will lift itself up. Then quickly press the hole closed. Afterwards put it in the oen. Sprinkle flour in the dish beforehand. Take care that the oven is properly heated, then it will be a pretty pastry. The dough for all shaped pastries is made in this manner.
edouard at meievalcookery.com writes:
Below are the relevant recipes from Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery
Books. In them I can find references to pre-baking the coffin, to
coloring it with saffron and egg yolks, and to putting a top crust on
it, but I do not see any noes about the thickness of the coffin walls,
whether they were edible, or the ingredients or methods used for making
them.
Are there any other sources or recipes mentioned to document their
methods? I am concerned that the "hot liquid fat poured into flor"
way of making a crust is a (relatively) modern one that arose from a
faulty source or assumption and is unintentionally being promoted as
period without supporting evidence (e.g. probably period because it's
very rustic looking - thick and inedible).
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:17:48 -0800
From: Edouard de Bruyerecourt <bruyere at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval History Magazine (was meat
pastiesand theirlongevity)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Caillin wrote:
> The Pyes of Parys article was quite fascinating. What I found
> interesting was when he made his coffyns he made them in 3 separate
> parts; a bottom part, the side part and then the top. He pre-baked them
> and then filled them and did a flour- water mixture to seal them. What
> I am curious about is the need for the sides to be separate. I have not
> seen any documentation for this and was curious to find out if this was
> indeed period.
My deductions are that using the three parts is a more efficient use of
the pastry, and that it avoids either the thicker folds along the top of
walls, or the thicker walls and thinner bottom, if you took formed the
coffin from a large circle. The three piece design makes all three sides
the same thickness and with the same heating and drying properties.
I don't know how old the 'tin can' style of meat pie coffin has been
used, but it's fairly ubiquitious in the British Isles and former
colonies. The original pyes could have been just as easily a pasty
shaped from one large round of pastry. But, then again, you might run
into problems with a good seal along the crimped seam.
Might make for an interesting experiement. Make a dozen pies, three each
of different designs: three-piece 'tin can,' 'tin can' with whole
bottom/sides, pasty/turn-over, and something else. See how the fare over
a four week period on the counter, checking for cracks and drying, as
well as the pastry to filling ratio it took to make each style.
--
Edouard, Sire de Bruyerecourt
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:49:1 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Make Fayre Paste (was: Medieval History
Magazine...)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) wrote:
> Below are the relevant recipes from Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery
> Books. In them I can find references to pre-baking the coffin, to
> coloring it with saffron and egg yols, and to putting a top crust
> on it, but I do not see any notes about the thickness of the coffin
> walls, whether they were edible, or the ingredients or methods used
> for making them.
>
> Are there any other sources or recipes mentioned to document teir
> methods? I am concerned that the "hot liquid fat poured into flour"
> way of making a crust is a (relatively) modern one that arose from a
> faulty source or assumption and is unintentionally being promoted as
> period without supporting evidence (.g. probably period because
> it's very rustic looking - thick and inedible).
(recipes snipped)
As far as I know, none of the pie recipes in Two Fifteenth-Century
Cookery Books tells you anything about how to make the pastry. The
only recipes I remember which do tell you are for pasty-types things
(at least, that is my guess about what they are) that are going to be
fried, and I am not sure how much of a guide that is to what pastry
you would use for something that is going to be baked. Here is one of
these recipes:
Ryschewys Closed and Fried. Take figs, and grind them small in a
mortar with a little oil, and grind with them cloves and maces; and
then take it up into a vessel, and cast thereto pines, saunders and
raisons of corinth and minced dates, powdred pepper, canel, salt,
saffron; then take fine paste of flour and water, sugar, saffron and
salt, and make fair cakes thereof; then roll thine stuff in thine
hand and couch it in the cakes and cut it, and fold them in ryshews,
and fry them up in oil; an serve forth hot. [spelling modernized]
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:13:51 +1300
From: Phil Anderson <urizen at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Pyes of Pares article author's comments
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
I forwarded the digests containing the discussion of Del's Pyes of
Pares article to him and he sent back the reply below. He can be
contacted at del at babel.com.au
===========
Yes, I'm the author of the article, despite the fact that the
magazine failed to spell my last name correctly. It is in
fact "Elson".
I'm happy to discuss any issues with the article off list but
I don't really have the time to subscribe to this list. I'm
on too many mailing lists already, I have a full time job and
a half, and trying to keep a kingdom together at the moment
as well.
To answer some specific questions:
* I was aware that there were no period recipes covering how
to make pastry for these "coffins", and have used the post-period
sources that I was able to trace back. The article conjectures
that *should* pastry have been made in this way in period then
it *can be proven* to be an effective means of preservation.
Therefore it is reasonable to conjecture that these pies would
have been made in this way, based on both the literature and
scientific evidence presented.
* The "pies bought from a service station" were in fact plain
meat pies. They were not kept refrigerated, and were just
stored in paper bags. I don't believe that the difference
between the wooden bowl, cloth, and paper bags made a significant
difference to the experiment. The reason that the service-
station pies were kept in their original packing was to remove
any doubt about introducing baccillus or fungi through handling.
The primary difference between the service station pies and
the pyes de pares was the pastry. The service station pies
had a meat filling, but the pastry was a thin-walled flaky
pastry, with some gaps and somewhat ineffective seals. It is
apparent that airborne baccilli or spores were able to enter
the pies through the walls and/or seals of the pastry. Making
the pastry heavier, dryer, and of a different composition,
prevented that.
On camp, we keep our pyes in a wicker basket covered with a
dry cloth. This is based on our understanding of the use
of wicker containers in field kitchens of the late 15th C,
based on woodcuts and artwork of the period. The wooden
bowl and cloth reproduced that part of the experiment under
laboratory supervision as much as I was able to (I wasn't
able to find a small sized wicker basket in time). Also
there appears to be some use of wooden boxes for food storage,
again based on iconographic evidence of the period, and it
appears that these boxes are not usually well sealed or
airtight. Therefore it is my conjecture that the food stored
inside these boxes or baskets had the ability to withstand
attack by airborne pathogens.
* The pastry that I normally use to make the pyes de pares
is somewhat, although not excessively salted. It is edible,
and quite tasty especially at a camping event where you tend
to get dehydrated and crave salt anyway. I often make larger
coffins to store roasted or boiled and salted meats, and the
pastry that I use to act as a storage is very salty, rock
hard, and not particularly edible.
* I am unable to get a release for posting this article to
the florilegium without first a word with the magazine editor.
I will do that shortly. I'm reasonably sure that he will
have no problems with that, perhaps after a suitable time
period, but I have to make the call first.
--
Del
aka Delbert von Strassburg
Lochac
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:05:58 -0500
From: "Nancy Kiel" <nancy_kiel at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Make Fayre Paste (was: Medieval History
Magazine...)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
So I'm an idiot, of course the coffin pastries CAN be baked empty-- those
four-and-twenty blackbirds won't be singing if the crust isn't pre-baked. I
was wondering why one would pre-bake the crust and then bake it again with
the filling; no doubt it depends on the filling (you would think that by now
I would know that no one did everything exactly the same way all the
time).
Nancy Kiel
> From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
> Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) wrote:
>> Below are the relevant recipes from Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery Books.
>> In them I can find references to pre-baking the coffin, to coloring it
>> with saffron and egg yolks, and to putting a top crust on it, but I do not
>> see any notes about the thickness of the coffin walls, whether they were
>> edible, or the ingredients or methods used for making them.
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:15:47 -0600
From: "Terry Decer" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Make Fayre Paste (was: Medieval History
Magazine...)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
One reason to pre-bake a pie shell is to prepare it to hold liquid filling.
Pie shells, especially those without shortening, have a tendency to absorb
liquids. An unbaked pie shell that is absorbing liquids may not bake
properly. The answer s to partially or fully bake it before filling.
Bear
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pie crust recipies
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:29:51 -0700
Kimberly Sargen <ksargen at charter.net> wrote:
> I'm trying to find something that is more period than our
> modern shortcrust, but is a bit more palatable than some of the "coffins
> made of paste" pie crusts of our esteemed ancestors.
You might want to try this one:
To make short paest for tarte
A Proper Newe Book p. 37/C10
Take fyne floure and a curscy of fayre water and a dysche of swete
butter and a lyttel saffron, and the yolkes of two egges and make it
thynne and as tender as ye maye.
Our version (from the Miscellany)
Crust: 6 threads saffron crushed in 1 t cool water 5-6 T very soft butter
1 c flour 2 egg yolks
To make crust, mix saffron water into flour; add egg yolks and mix well
(will be crumbly). Add 4 T butter and mix well; add enough of remaining
butter to make a smooth paste. (Amount used depends upon softness of
butter and warmth of kitchen.) Roll smooth and place in 9" pie plate.
Crimp edge. Pour into raw crust and bake at 350? for about 50 minutes
(top cracks). Cool before eating.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:21:43 EDT
From: Devra at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:pie soggy problem
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
This won't work with baked fruit pies, but if you are making a custard pie,
either plain or with raw fruit on top, you can do the ol' slide thing. Bake the
crust. Bake the filling in an identical-sized pan. After they both cool,
slither the filling into the baked shell. You have to be careful, but it should
just slide right in and settle down... I used to do that with a coffee
custard pie.
Devra (mmm - haven't thought of that coffee pie for years...)
Devra Langsam
www.poisonpenpress.com
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:25:32 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A small feast (long)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at nsteorra.org>
Cynata wrote:
> You said you made the pie crusts in advance and froze them. Do you have a
> recipe, and more importantly, sme pointers on making good pie crust? Up
> until now I have relied on pre-made crusts, but Pillsbury just recently
> changed their packaging on their refrigerated crusts, and it seems like they
> have also changed their formula and the size of the pece of dough as well.
> At any rate, I haven't had good luck with the new crusts. And my local
> grocery is no longer carrying the Mrs. Smith's (dairy-free) frozen shells.
> So I have to learn to make my own. I would need to use either vegetable
> sortening or soy margarine instead of butter.
For recipes with no indication of what the pie crust should be, I use
a standard modern flaky pie crust made with partly whole wheat flour
and butter, although it can be done with margarine. I have no idea
wheher or not this is right--I know of no pie crust recipes before
the 16th century, and the ones then include both "short paste" and
pie crusts without fat.
For two 9" crusts, mix 2/3 c whole wheat flour and 1 1/3 c white
flour, cut a quarter pound of butter into the flour until it is in
very small lumps (I generally use a food processor for this; I have
done it with two knives cutting X-wise against each other, but not
for feast quantities), then add about 6 tablespoons of water a
spoonful or two at a timeand mix very carefully with a fork until it
starts to hang together, working it as little as possible. I roll
them out between two sheets of waxed paper into a circle the diameter
of the waxed paper, remove one sheet of waxed paper and loosen the
other beore inverting the crust into a pie pan (it being a lot
easier to peel waxed paper off the pie crust when it is lying flat
than after it is in the pie pan). Put into a gallon zip-lock bag,
squeeze the air out and seal, and you can have a stack of these
siting in your freezer for when you need them. I remember one
earlier occasion for a larger feast when we had a real assembly line
going in my kitchen and dining room making 20 or more pie crusts for
the event a few weeks away. It is a way of getting a labor intensive
job out of the way when you have the leisure, without, as far as I
can tell, compromising quality.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:54:31 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pillsbury pie crusts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Chris Stanifer wrote:
> Another reason you may wish to make 'pie crusts' by hand for period
> feasts is that there appears
> to be a bit of evidence that the 'pie crusts' used in many of the
> extant recipes were not all that
> flaky or tender to begin with. It all depends on how authentic you
> want to be. A crust used to
> encase a rabbit (Hare Pie???), and take the shape of the original
> creature would need to be
> sturdy. A modern flaky pie crust may well crumble under its own
> weight if used in this manner.
Having done a good amount of research and experimentation on pie
crusts, I'm inclined to disagree. There are many paintings from just
after period of standing crust pies where it can clearly be seen that
the walls are less than a quarter of an inch thick. I've also made a
number of dishes using standard pie crust recipes that are sculpted and
stand up quite well on their own (see the pics at the URLs below).
None of them had a tendency to crumble. As long as there's something
that the crust is wrapped around, then it has plenty of support.
"Still-life with Turkey-Pie" (detail), Pieter Claesz, c. 1630
http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/standing1.jpg
"Breakfast Table with Blackberry Pie" (detail), Willem Claesz Heda
(1631)
http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/standing4.jpg
Some of my own experiments:
A Dish of Artichokes -
http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/artichoke.jpg
A chicken pie shaped like a fish -
http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/fish.jpg
Standing crust experiment -
http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/crust.jpg
(the final version of this one was larger and thinner)
Also see the painting "Kitchen" (Vincenzo Campi, 1580s) in which there
is a woman rolling out a thin top crust for a double crust pie in a
modern-shaped pie pan.
http://www.wga.hu/art/c/campi/vincenzo/2kitchen.jpg
> There are those, like myself, who believe that some of these crusts
> were not even meant to be
> eaten, but rather acted as sturdy little pastry ovens to help keep the
> contents moist and
> protected from excessive heat. When the dish was served, the crust
> was cut away and discarded.
While some standing crusts may have been used as a preservation method
and were not intended to be eaten, this is certainly not the case for
all crusts, as evidenced by the following (emphasis added):
"To make Paste, and to raise Coffins. Take fine flower, and lay it on a
boord, and take a certaine of yolkes of Egges as your quantitie of
flower is, then take a certaine of Butter and water, and boil them
together, but ye must take heed ye put not too many yolks of Egges, ***
for if you doe, it will make it drie and not pleasant in eating ***:
and yee must take heed ye put not in too much Butter for if you doe, it
will make it so fine and short that you cannot raise. And this paste is
good to raise all manner of Coffins: Likewise if ye bake Venison, bake
it in the paste above named. "
Source [The Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen, Stuart Peachey
(ed.), c. 1588]
- Doc
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:10:43 -0500
From: "Glenn A. Crawford" <tavernkeeper at phoenixroost.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Pillsbury pie crusts
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> "To make Paste, and to raise Coffins. Take fine flower, and lay it on a
> boord, and take a certaine of yolkes of Egges as your quantitie of
> flower is, then take a certaine of Butter and water, and boil them
> together, but ye must take heed ye put not too many yolks of Egges, ***
> for if you doe, it will make it drie and not pleasant in eating ***:
> and yee must take heed ye put not in too much Butter for if you doe, it
> will make it so fine and short that you cannot raise. And this paste is
> good to raise all manner of Coffins: Likewise if ye bake Venison, bake
> it in the paste above named. "
Just a lurker peek out again, when I read this recipe it sounds like a
recipe for today's pte choux (puff shell pastry). As I read the
instructions, it is similar to the procedure except the egg is added last
not first.
6 tablespoons (3 ounces) unsalted butter
3/4 cup water
1 cup all purpose flour
1/8 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon sugar
4 eggs
Preheat oven to 450 degrees. In 2 quart pot, combine the butter and water.
On a piece of wax or parchment paper, sift together the flour, salt and
sugar. Bring the water and butter to a rolling boil, remove from heat and
dump the flour mixture in all at once. Stir with a wooden spoon or paddle to
incorporate.
Return the saucepot to high heat and cook, stirring, for about one minute.
The mixture will form a ball and coat the pan with a thin film.
Transfer the mixture to a mixing bowl or standing mixer equipped with the
paddle attachment. Mix the dough for a minute or so, on low speed, to
release some of the heat. Add the eggs, one at a time, completely
incorporating each one before adding the next. Beat until the dough gets
thick and ribbony.
Fit a pastry bag with a round #5 tip and fill with the warm dough. Line a
heavy cookie sheet with parchment paper and anchor it to the tray with a
little dab of the dough at each corner. Pipe about forty to forty five 1
1/2-inch mounds about 2 inches apart on a cookie sheet lined with parchment
paper. Bake for 10 to 15 minutes, until golden and puffed. Reduce heat to
350 degrees and bake for another 10 minutes or until they are golden brown
and there are no droplets of moisture in the crevices. Turn off oven and
leave the choux to dry for another 10 minutes. Use when cool, or freeze,
wrapped in a plastic bag, for 2-3 months.
Glenn A. Crawford
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:14:24 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:non-soggy pie crust bottoms - OOP
To: "Bill Fisher" <liamfisher at gmail.com>, "Cook within the SCA"
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Typically the easiest (and probably non-period) way to make your
> bottom crust non-soggy would be to blind-bake your pie crust filled
> with beans, or arbles, or small stones. Then put in the fillling
> and bake the pie.
>
> Cadoc
Blind baking may not be common, but Martino describes blind baking a closed
pie shell for a dish of live birds in a pie. We've discussed it here
previously, so the recipe may be in them Florilegium.
Bear
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:28:50 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrot-Cheese Pie (recipe and redaction)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Here's the recipe I was mentioning.
Torta de Zanahoria (Carrot Pie)
Wash and scrape the carrots, and remove them from the water and cook
them in good meat broth, and being cooked remove them and chop them
small with the knife, adding to them mint and marjoram, and for each
two pounds of chopped carrots [use] a pound of Tronchon cheese and a
pound and a half of buttery Pinto cheese, and six ounces of fresh
cheese, and one ounce of ground pepper, one ounce of cinnamon, two
ounces of candied orange peel cut small, one pound of sugar, eight
eggs, three ounces of cow's butter, and from this composition make a
torta with pastry above and below, and the tart pan with pastry all
around, and make it cook in the oven, making the crust of sugar,
cinnamon, and rosewater. In this manner you can make tortas of all
sorts of roots, such as that of parsley, having taken the core out of
them.
Diego Granado, Libro del Arte de Cozina, 1599
Redaction:
1/2 lb. carrots, cooked and drained
1/2 oz. candied orange peel
4 oz. mozzarella, shredded
1/4 tsp. dried marjoram
6 oz. monterey jack, shredded
1/2 tsp dried mint
1-1/2 oz. ricotta cheese
2 eggs, beaten
1-1/2 TBS butter
pastry for 2-crust pie (preferably made with butter)
1/2 TBS cinnamon
cinnamon sugar
1/2 c. sugar
rosewater
Preheat oven to 375 F. Combine all of the filling ingredients and mix
thoroughly. Place in the bottom crust. Put on the top crust, and seal
the edges well. Brush the top crust with rosewater, and sprinkle with
cinnamon sugar. Bake for 45-50 minutes, until the crust is brown, and
the filling is set.
Notes:
This appears to be one of the recipes that Granado "borrowed" from
Scappi. It appears in a chapter entitled, "Divers Manners of Tortas,
or Tortadas, Which in Italy are Called Costradas, and in Naples,
Copos". I made some substitutions in the cheeses. I have been unable
to identify Pinto cheese, so I substituted mozzarella, which is a
period cheese (Granado refers to it in other recipes). Tronchon is a
Spanish variety which is still produced today, but it is rare and hard
to obtain. Its flavor is supposed to be mild, and I thought Monterey
Jack, though a modern cheese, might work in this recipe. Fresh cheese
is a soft, newly-made cheese, and Ricotta has a similar taste and
texture, even though it is a whey cheese.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:59:31 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Carrot-Cheese Pie (recipe and redaction)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Carrot Cheese Pie may not sound appetizing to those un-socialized to the
Historical Cooking asthetic, but Carrot Cake and Cheese Cake do. Go
figure. I think this recipe [and your redaction] sound yummy!
A snail recipe in the Granado Libro,
PARA HAZER COSTRADAS DE CARACOLES SACADOS DE LA
CASCARA -- To Make Cakes of Snails Removed from the Shell, calls for "a
little grated Pinto Cheese" which implies something about its texture
which is not soft like Ricotta, yesno?
From a cheese merchant's website:
http://www.bacchuscellars.com/cheese/tronchon.htm
"Tronchon is a very small village in the southeastern part of Spain's
wild and mountainous Teruel province. The town and its surrounding area
has an age-old tradition of raising sheep and goats in mixed herds. This
tradition led to the creation of Tronchon cheese, which is made from a
blend of goat, sheep and cow milk. This uniquely volcano-shaped cheese
is beautiful and delicious. With its smooth, buttery, fresh flavor and
springy texture, Tronchon is a longtime family favorite in Spain. It
goes great with green Spanish olives and a fruity red Rioja."
Best, Selene
> Notes:
> This appears to be one of the recipes that Granado "borrowed" from
> Scappi. It appears in a chapter entitled, "Divers Manners of Tortas,
> or Tortadas, Which in Italy are Called Costradas, and in Naples,
> Copos". I made some substitutions in the cheeses. I have been unable
> to identify Pinto cheese, so I substituted mozzarella, which is a
> period cheese (Granado refers to it in other recipes). Tronchon is a
> Spanish variety which is still produced today, but it is rare and hard
> to obtain. Its flavor is supposed to be mild, and I thought Monterey
> Jack, though a modern cheese, might work in this recipe. Fresh cheese
> is a soft, newly-made cheese, and Ricotta has a similar taste and
> texture, even though it is a whey cheese.
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:09:05 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Carrot-Cheese Pie (recipe and redaction)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
> Carrot Cheese Pie may not sound appetizing to those un-socialized to the
> Historical Cooking asthetic, but Carrot Cake and Cheese Cake do. Go
> figure. I think this recipe [and your redaction] sound yummy!
It went over well at the feast. Leftovers were made available to the
populace, and all the pie disappeared.
> A snail recipe in the Granado Libro, PARA HAZER COSTRADAS DE CARACOLES
> SACADOS DE LA
> CASCARA -- To Make Cakes of Snails Removed from the Shell, calls for "a
> little grated Pinto Cheese" which implies something about its texture
> which is not soft like Ricotta, yesno?
True. I substituted mozzarella for the pinto cheese; the ricotta was
serving as "new cheese".
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:32:33 -0500
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Carrot-Cheese Pie (recipe and redaction)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:28:50 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Robin Carroll-Mann
<rcmann4 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Here's the recipe I was mentioning.
>
> Torta de Zanahoria (Carrot Pie)
> pound of Tronchon cheese and a pound and a half of buttery Pinto
> cheese, and six ounces of fresh cheese,
You could use Queso Blanco for a new cheese in this, I've used it before, it is a curd cheese (it looks like compacted cottage cheese, which I think it is) has a nice fresh taste, and melts well. Depending on your local market, I was able to find it in PA when I lived there and used it when I made tarts that called for fresh cheese.
If you have any carnicerias in your area they should have it. I found it at Shady Maple up in PA and at Giant. Farmer's cheese is a new cheese as well.
I would use goat cheese for Tronchon. I wouldn't go with a raw milk one though,
they tend to be stronger in flavor.
Cadoc
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:31:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrot-Cheese Pie in Scappi
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Okay, I've located the original recipe in Scappi's "Opera". It's at:
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533351951
Go to image 739.
I could use some help from the Italian readers out there. (Helwyse,
you listening?)
It calls for one pound of grated Parmasan cheese or _________ (can't read the word)
A pound and a half of fatty cheese
Six ounces of provatura
To refresh your memories, Granado's version calls for "a pound of
Tronchon cheese and a pound and a half of buttery Pinto cheese, and six
ounces of fresh cheese".
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:19:33 -0500
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Carrot-Cheese Pie in Scappi
To: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:31:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Robin Carroll-Mann
<rcmann4 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Okay, I've located the original recipe in Scappi's "Opera". It's at:
> http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533351951
> Go to image 739.
>
> I could use some help from the Italian readers out there. (Helwyse,
> you listening?)
>
> It calls for one pound of grated Parmasan cheese or _________ (can't
> read the word)
> A pound and a half of fatty cheese
> Six ounces of provatura
>
> To refresh your memories, Granado's version calls for "a pound of
> Tronchon cheese and a pound and a half of buttery Pinto cheese, and
> six ounces of fresh cheese".
>
> Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
I blew it up, it looks like Riuiera, at least from looking at the script in the
rest of the document. No idea what it means, but I have found references
online that it seems to correlate to River Riuiera de Genua - Riviera de Genova - River of Genova
Are there any italian cheeses aged near rivers or maybe river caves?
Maybe it is a bleu cheese? Gorgonzola
Cadoc
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:35:58 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pinto cheese?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
While I can't prove it, I suspect Pinto cheese may be a cheese once made in
Pinto, Spain (near Madrid). The region is mostly industrial these days and
most of the old agricultural base is long gone. There is another reference
to Pinto cheese in a poem from around the early 17th Century.
Bear
> I haven't been able to find a mention of this cheese anywhere. Could it
> perhaps be a mispronunciation/misspelling for a Catalan cheese named Picn?
>
> Picn, a close relative of Cabrales is made in the Cantabrian villages of
> Bejes and Tresviso. The cheeses are soft inside, some spreadably and others
> crumbly, and when cut reveal little galleries and caverns inhabited by the
> greenish-blue mold which gives them their characteristic strong big complex
> flavor.
>
> Kateryn de Develyn
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:40:25 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Carrot-Cheese Pie in Scappi
To: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>, "Cooks within the
SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Provatura is a buffalo (not bison) milk cheese with a texture similar to
mozzarella. You can use mozzarella as a substitute.
Bear
> Okay, I've located the original recipe in Scappi's "Opera". It's at:
> http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533351951
> Go to image 739.
>
> It calls for one pound of grated Parmasan cheese or _________ (can't
> read the word)
> A pound and a half of fatty cheese
> Six ounces of provatura
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:55:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Carrot-Cheese Pie in Scappi
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>>>>
Okay, I've located the original recipe in Scappi's "Opera". It's at:
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533351951
Go to image 739.
I could use some help from the Italian readers out there. (Helwyse, you
listening?)
It calls for one pound of grated Parmasan cheese or _________ (can't
read the word)
A pound and a half of fatty cheese
Six ounces of provatura
To refresh your memories, Granado's version calls for "a pound of
Tronchon cheese and a pound and a half of buttery Pinto cheese, and six
ounces of fresh cheese".
<<<<
Ask and you shall receive. (I have not transcribed it for speed and
space).
To make a pie of carrots and other roots and other things. Chapter 111
Wash and peel the carrots, and parboil them in water, then take them
out of the water and put them to cook in good meat broth. When they
are cooked take them out and cut them very small with a knife. Add
mint and marjoram and for every two pounds of chopped carrots add a
pound of Parmegian cheese or of Riviera grated, one pound and a half
of fat cheese and six ounces of provatura. One ounce of pepper ground,
two ounces of Napoletan biscotti ground, one ounce of cinnamon, two
ounces of candied sour orange peel cut small, one poind of sugar, eight
eggs, three ounces of butter. And with the mixture make a pie with a
sheet (of pastry) below and above and "tortiglione sfogliato" around,
and cook it in the oven or under a "testo". Make a crust (icing) with
sugar and cinnamon and rose water. In this way you can make a tart of
any kind of parsnip or root of parsley, having emptied out the
heart/seed.
Notes: Parmesan - a hard salty cheese,
Riviera - another hard aged cheese, think of grano padano.
fat cheese - never quite worked out what this is other than a fresh,
softer cheese, maybe akin to farmers cheese but is not ricotta OR
mozzarella because those are always refered to by name.
Provatura - the original mozzarella made with buffalo milk.
Napoletan biscotti - biscotti made with flour, eggs, sugar, aniseed and
if I remember rightly musk. Often used as a thickening agent.
Pies were frequently embelished around the rim with Tortiglione
sfogliato. The best description I can give is of very thin layers of
pasty (think flaky or filo) layered and then twisted into rounds.
The Testo is the dutch oven of the Italian renaisance, it allows you to
cook pies in the coals of the fire.
The Italian pound or libro is about 12 modern ounces.
Helewyse
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:07:19 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pie crust was what's wierd-ish, what isn't
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Cailte asked:
> speaking of pastry and pie crust.... i am about to do 700 small
> salmon pasties. has anyone made pie crust in a food processor? how
> do you do it, and does it work well?
I have use a food processor. It might not be quite as flaky, but its
more than acceptable. Use the pulse cycle and make sure you don't
cut the fat in too finely, leave pieces the size of peas, then pulse
in the water. Stop before it quite forms a ball.
Ranvaig
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:00:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Samrah <auntie_samrah at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pie crust was what's wierd-ish, what isn't
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Cailte wrote:
speaking of pastry and pie crust.... i am about to do 700
small salmon pasties.
Unfortunately, I am not together enough to make more than 1 crust at
time (she could do 2), and a pastry blender ("d-shaped" hand tool with
lots of wires bent in half circle) is now my "weapon" of choice.
Although it makes me feel rather intellectually challenged to admit it,
I can be a rather slow learner. Originally for pasties, I was rolling
out all of the dough and cutting it in circles with a salad plate.
Makes the dough awful tough when you rework it. Tried adding sour
cream and lots of thinks to make it flakier. Finally learned to make a
roll/log, cut off slices and roll each pasty crust separately. Better
crust.
I am sure you know that, but thought I would mention it out there in
case we had anyone who didn't. Although better (ie softer, flakier)
crust is probably much less common in period, and I am not certain I am
devoted enough to roll out 700 pasties individually.
Good luck with your pasties--all 700 of 'em ;0)
Samrah
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:48:39 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pie crust was what's wierd-ish, what isn't
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
cailte asked:
> speaking of pastry and pie crust.... i am about to do 700 small
> salmon pasties. has anyone made pie crust in a food processor? how
> do you do it, and does it work well?
It is how I usually do it, and yes, it works well, giving me the same
results as if I do it by hand. I use the food processor to cut the
butter into the flour, then dump into a bowl and mix the water in by
hand. In fact, I posted my description of doing it to this list a
week or two ago--I'll repeat that post at the bottom of this.
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
----------
Cynara wrote:
> You said you made the pie crusts in advance and froze them. Do you have a
> recipe, and more importantly, some pointers on making good pie crust? Up
> until now I have relied on pre-made crusts, but Pillsbury just recently
> changed their packaging on their refrigerated crusts, and it seems
> like they
> have also changed their formula and the size of the piece of dough as well.
> At any rate, I haven't had good luck with the new crusts. And my local
> grocery is no longer carrying the Mrs. Smith's (dairy-free) frozen shells.
> So I have to learn to make my own. I would need to use either vegetable
> shortening or soy margarine instead of butter.
For recipes with no indication of what the pie crust should be, I use
a standard modern flaky pie crust made with partly whole wheat flour
and butter, although it can be done with margarine. I have no idea
whether or not this is right--I know of no pie crust recipes before
the 16th century, and the ones then include both "short paste" and
pie crusts without fat.
For two 9" crusts, mix 2/3 c whole wheat flour and 1 1/3 c white
flour, cut a quarter pound of butter into the flour until it is in
very small lumps (I generally use a food processor for this; I have
done it with two knives cutting X-wise against each other, but not
for feast quantities), then add about 6 tablespoons of water a
spoonful or two at a time and mix very carefully with a fork until it
starts to hang together, working it as little as possible. I roll
them out between two sheets of waxed paper into a circle the diameter
of the waxed paper, remove one sheet of waxed paper and loosen the
other before inverting the crust into a pie pan (it being a lot
easier to peel waxed paper off the pie crust when it is lying flat
than after it is in the pie pan). Put into a gallon zip-lock bag,
squeeze the air out and seal, and you can have a stack of these
sitting in your freezer for when you need them. I remember one
earlier occasion for a larger feast when we had a real assembly line
going in my kitchen and dining room making 20 or more pie crusts for
the event a few weeks away. It is a way of getting a labor-intensive
job out of the way when you have the leisure, without, as far as I
can tell, compromising quality.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:14:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pie crust was what's wierd-ish, what isn't
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
> cailte asked:
>> speaking of pastry and pie crust.... i am about to do 700 small
>> salmon pasties. has anyone made pie crust in a food processor? how
>> do you do it, and does it work well?
>
> It is how I usually do it, and yes, it works well, giving me the same
> results as if I do it by hand. I use the food processor to cut the
> butter into the flour, then dump into a bowl and mix the water in by
> hand. In fact, I posted my description of doing it to this list a
> week or two ago--I'll repeat that post at the bottom of this.
This is a much faster way to do the pie crust, and if you have a plastic blade attachment for your food processor, you can even mix the pastry to completion in it. Place all of your liquid into the bowl at one time, and mix only until the mass comes together, and not a moment longer. If you drizzle the liquid in, or add it in batches, you'll over mix the dough, so make sure your recipe is
accurate.
William de Grandfort
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:52:29 -0500
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pie crust was what's wierd-ish, what isn't
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:07:19 -0500, ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
<ranvaig at columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>> speaking of pastry and pie crust.... i am about to do 700 small
>> salmon pasties. has anyone made pie crust in a food processor? how
>> do you do it, and does it work well?
>
> I have use a food processor. It might not be quite as flaky, but its
> more than acceptable. Use the pulse cycle and make sure you don't
> cut the fat in too finely, leave pieces the size of peas, then pulse
> in the water. Stop before it quite forms a ball.
>
> Ranvaig
I freeze the fat first, cut it in with the machine till it looks ok,
re-freeze it again, then work in the water by hand. Then
rest it in the fridge till I need to use it, wrapped in plastic
wrap. I find that the freezings keeps the fat (usually butter
for me) from melting and prematurely causing the gluten
strands to swell, because the whirring blades of a food
processor generate quite a bit of heat.
I work the dough as little as possible, kind of like making
a biscuit. But if I need it to be standing on its own, I
abuse it a bit to create some gluten.
I've also made pie dough with oil as well, it is an interesting
texture.
Cadoc
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 04:31:29 -0500
From: "Ruth Tannahill" <rtanhil at fast.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: tips for making better pies
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
So spoke Anahita:
> So first, he suggests for the crust: make it with less liquid and
> more fat. The fat will repel some of the moistness from the filling.
Yep. I do that when I'm making pies that I will fill and bake that day. I
deliberately add a bit more fat (shortening or butter, depending on the
audience) and less water. But I find that when I'm making pastry to freeze
and roll out later, or pie shells to freeze and fill later, or transport to
an event and fill there, the high fat ratio makes them a little too brittle
for easy handling. In other words, if I'm going to make the pastry and bake
the pie then and there, I go with the richer crust. If there's storage or
transport involved, I sacrifice a bit of crispness, flakiness, and
tenderness for a crust that won't disintigrate. The more water you add, the
more gluten will toughen the dough. It will hold together better in storage
or transport, but you just won't get that crisp-yet-melting crust I can get
when I know the pies won't be handled a lot between prep and serving.
Probably why hot water pastry is so durable. It's a traditional picnic food,
used for something like pork pies, and needs to be able to handle a bit of
rough handling.
> Then, second, for the filling: make it less moist by pre-cooking it
> to some extent before putting into crust to bake.
I routinely do this with fruit fillings. I cook the fruit with whatever
butter and sugar I'm going to use, then allow it to cool before filling the
pies. You must let the filling cool. Otherwise you'll melt the fat in the
pastry and lose the flakiness. All the extra liquid will do is steam the
crust. Also, once the filling is cooked (sweated out is probably a more
appropriate term, since you aren't going for mush), it won't shrink as much
or bubble over. You can get a pie with a domed top that will stay that way
throughout and after baking. Less likelihood of oven spillover accidents,
too. As an added bonus, you don't need to add as much thickener (e.g. flour)
as you would with raw fruit. When I make apple pie, as I will in about 6
hours, I don't need to add any flour. The apples and butter turn out just
fine without any thickener at all.
If I were making a vegetable or meat pie, I would not dream of using raw
ingredients. I would definitely brown the meat and sweat the vegetables.
For custard pies, you really can't cook your filling. I prebake the shells
for 10-20 minutes (depending on size and thickness of pastry--for a standard
9" pie with an average crust, 15 minutes is about right). But I prick the
bottom with a fork and use dried beans to keep the crust from warping during
blind baking.
> I haven't had a chance to experiment and test this, but if anyone
> gives it a try, please report back.
The advice is good. It works for me, and I'm the official pie baker of my
family.
When baking pies for an event, I often make a few sacrifices. I go for a
more durable crust, which means more liquid. It's just easier to handle the
pastry without it falling apart. And I go for speed. Ideally, I would use my
food processor to cut the cold fat into the dry ingredients, then transfer
the result into a bowl, where I would judiciously add water until it just
held together enough to roll out. In production mode, however, I just run
the processor and slowly add water, a tablespoon or so at a time, until it
forms a mass and starts thumping around the workbowl. That generally means
I've reached workable texture. I know that's dough brutality, but it's
fast.
Berelinde
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:05:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Bayne <shonsu_78 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tips for Better Pies
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>>>
-- "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org> wrote:
"for the filling: make it less moist by pre-cooking it
to some extent...I prebaked the crust for about 10
minutes of so enough to dry it a bit, so it doesn't
get waterlogged with the filling."
<<<
While apprenticed to a Swiss Master Pastry Chef I was
told and it proved itself true, that whenever we were
to back a pie with a moist filling we would line the
prebaked shell with cake crumbs, which would help
absorb some of the moisture and keep the bottom crust
from becoming soggy.
Lothar
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:57:08 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Okay Harlien MS 279 & Harl. MS 4016
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Micheal wrote:
> Unfortunately I can not get the books themselves yet.
> Cealian Of Moray
Those two manuscripts were published by the Early English Text Society
as "Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books". They are online at:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=header&;idno=CookBk
You might also look at the Liber Cure Cocorun
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/lcc3.htm
Recipe #51 "For a Pye" is worth looking at. The pie contains a capon
(apparently whole), two woodcocks, and a mallard, so I think that would
qualify as "grete".
--
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:11:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Pat <mordonna22 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] re: Okay Harlien MS 279 & Harl. MS 4016
To: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Cealian of Moray asked:
> are these the only books with Pyes de Paris or Great Pyes , is there
> any other primary source work out there. Everywhere I have tried
> already, refers you directly back to them. Including mincemeat pies
> in new England. I am looking for slightly more documentation then I
> have been able to find so far. Unfortunately I can not get the books
> themselves yet.
> Cealian Of Moray
Pyes of Pares
Hieatt, Constance B. An Ordinance of Pottage: An Edition of the
Fifteenth Century Culinary Recipes in Yale University's MS Beinecke
163. Published by Prospect Books. 1988. ISBN 0 907325 38 6. Pages 88,
202
Pies of Parys
A Boke of Kokery, from the facsimile in Duke Cariadoc's Cookbook
Collection
To make Pyes
A Propre new booke of Cokery
I am sure one of the librarians on the list could probably come up with
more for you.
Pat Griffin
Lady Anne du Bosc
known as Mordonna the Cook
Shire of Thorngill, Meridies
Mundanely, Millbrook, AL
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:23:26 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Okay Harlien MS 279 & Harl. MS 4016
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Also sprach Micheal:
> Actually I was looking for more primary and secondary sources then
> the 2 15th century cook books. Which although very good books are
> the source for multitude of other papers of the same topic. I have
> copied or downloaded the books them selves or at least what's up on
> their web pages.
> Da
Perhaps the "dead end" you're running into for finding earlier
references to Great Pies is that the concept may not be English,
originally. There appear to be somewhat older recipes for the kind of
huge pies with multiple filling ingredients, but they're in French,
Italian, and perhaps ultimately, Middle Eastern sources.
I know that Chiquart writes extensively on Pies of Parma in Du Fait
de Cuisine (he gives long, huge, and very detailed accounts for both
meat and fish-day versions), and that's just a little bit earlier
than the T15CCB references to Grete Pyes/Pyes of Parys. There seems
to be no reference to such a dish in The Forme of Cury, which is
surprising, but there's a recipe for Tourtes Parmerienne in the
Viandier de Taillevent (late 14th-century French), and I vaguely
recall some reference, at least, to them in the Enseignements, which
is earlier still.
I remember reading, a couple of years ago, I guess, a fascinating
article in Petits Propos Culinaires about the origins of the huge,
multi-layered pie (I forget exactly when, or which issue... Johnnae?
Can you help us out with a pointer here?). Anyway, the article
suggested the origins of the dish could, originally, be Greek or
Middle Eastern, if I'm remembering it correctly.
Adamantius
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:19:10 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Okay Harlien MS 279 & Harl. MS 4016
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>>>
I remember reading, a couple of years ago, I guess, a fascinating
article in Petits Propos Culinaires about the origins of the huge,
multi-layered pie (I forget exactly when, or which issue.. Johnnae? Can
you help us out with a pointer here?). Anyway, the article suggested the
origins of the dish could, originally, be Greek or Middle Eastern, if
I'm remembering it correctly.
Adamantius
<<<
I suspect that the articles are those that appear i PPC 59 and 61 (1998 and 1999). The Parmesan Pie by Anna Martellotti appeared in those issues in two
parts. She does tie it altogether from the Middle Eastern to Italian recipes
found in Libro per cuoco.
Johnnae
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:24:01 -0500
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Greetings! Ivan Day has some "fancy pies" on his website
(historicfood.com). With one of them is a carved wooden mould to produce
leaves which are placed as decoration on the lids. That ould be a fast
way for non-artistic types to produce quality decorations in quantity. He
also shows some metal tins for making the decorative sides. I think these
are from the mid-1600s and later.
Alys Katharine
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:16:50 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 19, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> It may also be that large pies, containing birds (as opposed to the
> custardy variants that may also contain small birds, marrow, etc., in
> the filling), were made of tough, free-standing pastry to help get
> them safely to the table intact, and possibly to preserve the filling
> for a time (although that really doesn't kick off until the
> seventeenth century, AFAICT, when you start seeing the pie recipes
> with "great store of butter" being poured in). I guess there may have
> been some visual expectation on the part of the diner, such that, when
> they saw such a large pastry, they expected something like pigeons
> inside, which is what made the live birds inside so cool...
Depends on what you mean by "kick off". Here's two 15th c. recipes and
a 16th c. one using pie crusts as a preservation method:
Source [Liber cure cocorum]: For lyoure best. Take drye floure, in
cofyne hit close, And bake hit hard, as I suppose. Thou may hit kepe
alle thys fyve 3ere, There-with alye mony metes sere. (England, c.
1430)
Source [Liber cure cocorum]: To keep herb3 over the wyntur. Take floure
and rere tho cofyns fyne, Wele stondande withouten stine. Take
tenderons of sauge with owte lesyng, And stop one fulle up to tho ryng.
Thenne close tho lyd fayre and wele, That ayre go not oute never a
dele, Do so with saveray, percil and rewe. And thenne bake hom harde,
wel ne3e brende. Sythun, kepe hom drye and to hom tent. This powder
schalle be of more vertu, Then opone erthe when hit gru. (England, c.
1430)
Source [The Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen, Stuart Peachey
(ed.)] To make a pie to keep long. You must first perboile your flesh +
press it, + when it is pressed, season it with pepper and salt whilest
it is hot, then lard it, make your paste of rie flower, it must be very
thick, or else it wil not holde, when it is seasoned + larded, lay it
in your pie, then cast on it before you close it, a good deale of
cloves and Mace beaten small, and lay upon that a good deale of Butter,
and so close it up: but you must leave a hole in the top of the lid, +
when it hath stood two houres in the Oven, you must fill it as full of
vinigar as you can, and then stop the hole as close as you can with
paste, and then set it in the Oven again: your Oven must bee verie hot
at the first, and then your pies will keep a great while: the longer
you keepe them the better wil they be: and when ye have taken them out
of the oven, and that they be almost cold, you must shake them betweene
your hands, and set them into the Oven, be well ware that one pie touch
not another by more than ones hand bredth: Remember also to let them
stand in the Oven after the Vinigar be in, two houres and more.
(England, c. 1588)
- Doc
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:34:32 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> Now, I have no compelling evidence to suggest that this method was
> used in period, nor that anything like a hot-water dough appears until
> the seventeenth century, but it's tempting to assume such a thing
> could have been done (whether or not it actually was is another
> story), since the technology clearly existed for other types of
> manufacture.
>
> As for the question of the thickness of the pastry and whether you
> need support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled
> with something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place.
>
> Adamantius
I am on my way out the door but Markham does include a
"rye paste would be kneaded only with hot water and a little
butter, or sweet seam and rye flour very finely sifted, and it
would be made tough and stiff that it may stand well in the raising
for the coffin thereof must ever be very deep: your coarse wheat crust
would be kneaded with hot water, or mutton broth and good store of butter,
and the paste made stiff and tough because that coffin must be deep also..."
Best edition on pages 96-98.
Johnnae
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:22:38 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: "Zelina Silverfox" <zelina at gmail.com>, "Cooks within the SCA"
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Um..question...may sound odd but here goes.
> How thick should the pastry be to free stand 8 inches on the sides
> without collapsing on itself? I am assuming ( I know... bad word) that
> the top would have been done seperately and put on towards the end of
> the final baking stage.
>
> ~Zelina~
How stiff is the pastry dough? The less pliable the dough, the thinner the
wall can be. I'm of the opinion that a freestanding pastry can made at a
thickness of 1/4 to 1/8 inches, but that it would take considerable practice
to be able to do it consistently.
Bear
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 23:28:45 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 19, 2005, at 11:41 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> Also sprach Daniel Myers:
>> Source [Liber cure cocorum]: For lyoure best. Take drye floure, in
>> cofyne hit close, And bake hit hard, as I suppose. Thou may hit kepe
>> alle thys fyve 3ere, There-with alye mony metes sere. (England, c.
>> 1430)
>
> Hmmm. In the above instance, are we reasonably sure the coffin in
> question is, in fact, dough? As far as I can tell, this appears to be
> a recipe for processing a thickening starch by baking flour in a
> sealed box or pot of an unspecified nature, but which may be a sealed
> pie crust, which would also make some sense, given the availability of
> the materials in a kitchen. Does LCC (a source I haven't looked at in
> a while) have these two recipes in sequence?
Actually, the recipes do show up one right after the other, but when I
pasted them into the email I reversed the order. They should have been
presented as:
To keep herb3 over the wyntur.
Take floure and rere tho cofyns fyne,
Wele stondande withouten stine;
Take tenderons of sauge with owte lesyng,
And stop one fulle up to tho ryng;
Thenne close tho lyd fayre and wele,
That ayre go not oute never a dele,
Do so with saveray, percil and rewe;
And thenne bake hom harde, wel ne3e brende;
Sythun, kepe hom drye and to hom tent;
This powder schalle be of more vertu,
Then opone erthe when hit gru.
For lyoure best.
Take drye floure, in cofyne hit close,
And bake hit hard, as I suppose;
Thou may hit kepe alle thys fyve 3ere,
There-with alye mony metes sere;
Here endys oure sawce, that I foretolde.
- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)
Pasciunt, mugiunt, confidiunt.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:00:47 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 20, 2005, at 2:17 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> Stefan, can you tell us more about your reasoning in reaching this
> conclusion? I'm not sure I buy the rectangular pie coffin idea: there
> are illustrations of what appear to be pies in various manuscripts,
> and they seem to me to mostly round or elliptical.
I agree that the majority of pictures I've seen are exactly as you saw.
However, I vaguely recall seeing a primary source that described
making a rectangular pie (I remember because it surprised me at the
time), but I can't find the reference at this time. I'll keep looking.
> As for the thickness required to make an eight-inch high side which
> will remain standing, there are some things that we need to consider.
> I'm not sure if eight inches in height is a reasonable expectation
> (maybe there's some textual reference I'm not familiar with, but apart
> from the various English recipes for pies in the shape of Towers,
> eight inches sounds a little high, when most specific recipe
> instructions that refer to height tend to call for one, or in some
> cases two, inches in height for tarts).
Mind you, these paintings may not be to scale, but relative to the size
of the hands of the people nearby I'd guess that the standing pies are
about 4 or 5 inches tall.
Les festins, Roman de Lancelot en prose, France (15th c.)
http://expositions.bnf.fr/gastro/grands/131.htm
La succession des plats, Grandes Heures d'Anne de Bretagne (late 15th c.)
http://expositions.bnf.fr/gastro/grands/130.htm
As long as there's some kind of support during the baking process, the
crust of a free-standing pie can easily be eight inches high and still
be 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick. Without such support though they (at least
the ones I've made) tend to warp and deform.
The bowl I made for the "dish of artichokes" was a crust that was blind
baked upside-down, using a handy kitchen bowl as a form (the crust was
on the *outside* of the bowl). [logical warning: "slippery slope"
reasoning follows] While I have absolutely no documentation that this
was ever done in period, it's such an obvious solution that I'm
reluctant to say it wasn't done.
A Dishe of Artechokes
http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/artechokes.jpg
- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:35:32 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Karen Hess in her commentary to Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery writes that
"A coffin is a mold made of pastry. the word comes from
Old French cofin and finally from Greek cophinos, meaning basket
(OED). While they could be any shape, they seem to have been rectangular
as often as not, judging by the occasional specification for a round coffin,
as in this recipe. They were closed unless directed otherwise."
Page 83.
Johnnae
>> . While I understand that a coffyn is rectangular in
>> shape, hence the transference of the word to the box we bury people
>> in.
>>
>> Stefan
> Stefan, can you tell us more about your reasoning in reaching this
> conclusion? I'm not sure I buy the rectangular pie coffin idea: there
> are illustrations of what appear to be pies in various manuscripts,
> and they seem to me to mostly round or elliptical.
>
> I think (and I could be wrong here) that we bury people in long,
> rectangular boxes because, well, a human body is oblong (spherical
> peers notwithstanding). A coffin, though, is simply a case, usually
> roughly in the shape of whatever it's supposed to contain, so it can
> be any shape and still be a coffin, as far as I know: the name does
> not directly imply oblong-ness.
> Adamantius
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:45:27 -0500
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Karen Hess in her commentary to Martha Washington's
> Booke of Cookery writes that
> "A coffin is a mold made of pastry. the word comes from
> Old French cofin and finally from Greek cophinos, meaning basket
> (OED). While they could be any shape, they seem to have been rectangular
> as often as not, judging by the occasional specification for a round coffin,
> as in this recipe. They were closed unless directed otherwise."
> Page 83.
>
> Johnnae
Dunno how much can be read into an instruction in terms of implying other
coffins were frequently rectangular. It seems to me that if they could and
were often any shape, the choice might as easily be between round and oval,
as opposed to circular and rectlinear. In otherwords, using a coffin
frequently to make, say, a roasted chicken, it might make sense to normally
have an oval shape, but if one were doing something else, where you wanted
to assure the ingredients were cooked evenly- an eggy sort of thing,
perhaps- you might specify round, so that all areas of the item were evenly
cooked. The rectilinear types tend to have the corners more cooked than the
centers, which is fine for many things, but might not be fine for an
amalgamation that is a bit more sensitive to temperature and cooking time
variants. In many cases, medieval folks didn't necessarily know WHY
something worked best a particular way, they just knew that it DID work best
a particular way. Very practical, if not theoreticly sound, people.
Saint Phlip,
CoD
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 01:23:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Okay, this does make sense. Anyone have the OED
> definition handy for "coffyn" or "coffin"?
[ME. cofin, coffyn, etc., a. OF. cofin, coffin,
little basket, case, etc., ad. L. cophin-us
(later cofin-us), a. Gr. basket.]
4. Cookery. a. A mould of paste for a pie;
the crust of a pie. Obs.
c1420 Liber Cocorum (1862) 41 Make a cofyne as
to smalle pye. c1420 Cookery Bk. 45 Make fayre
past of flowre & water, Sugre, & Safroun, & Salt;
& an make fayre round cofyns δer-of. 1588
SHAKES. Tit. A. V. ii. 189 Of the paste a coffen
I will reare. a1654 SELDEN Table-t. (Arb.) 33 The
Coffin of our Christmas Pies in shape long, is in
imitation of the Cratch. 1750 E. SMITH Compl.
Housewife 157 Season your lamb with pepper,
salt..So put it into your coffin.
b. A pie-dish or mould. Obs.
1580 in Wadley Bristol Wills (1886) 225 Twelve
voyders; a Custerd coffyn. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr.
IV. iii. 82. 1602 PLAT Delightes for Ladies,
Coffins of white plate. a1662 HEYLIN Laud II. 302
Which Notes..he kept in the Coffin of a Pye,
which had been sent him by his Mother.
Huette
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:50:37 -0500
From: "Nancy Kiel" <nancy_kiel at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
I don't want to say that pie crusts weren't made this way, but I'm not sure
why one would want to make the crusts this way. I've worked with the
stuff----it's basically clay, or Play-do, or Sculpey in consistency, and
it's quite easy to roll out a bottom of whatever shape you like, roll out a
strip that's the side, and pinch and "glue" it together. If you want to
bake it blind, so you can put your blackbirds in later, you can fill it with
flour, or bread.
Nancy Kiel
> From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
> To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:59:09 -0500
>
> Also sprach Nancy Kiel:
>> Also, if the pastry is thick enough to stand on its own, you don't need a
>> form.
>
> True, but I was just talking about using a form for mass-producing
> identical shells somewhat more quickly than you might otherwise. At least
> that's the rationale in modern pork pie production when the wooden block
> form is used (there are also extremely fancy hinged molds you can buy for
> larger pies and pates, but that's not really to address mass production
> issues).
>
> The way it works is, you roll your pastry into a smooth ball (having first
> determined, more or less, how much you'll need to do the job, either
> through past experience or a trial attempt), and then squoosh (that is a
> technical term) the wooden block, which resembles a hockey puck on a stick,
> with the stick protruding from one of the flat surfaces, into the dough,
> which spreads it out and forces the surface of the dough ball to begin to
> wrap itself around the block and up the sides. You then pat the sides,
> turning the whole thing occasionally via the stick, a la a potter's wheel,
> until they come evenly up the sides of the form, taking on its shape. You
> have the option of trimming the sides to smooth the edges.
>
> To remove the dough from the form, you roll it on its edge on your pastry
> board, which thins it slightly and, consequently, increases its
> circumference and diameter accordingly, which tends to create a space
> between the form and the dough (hot-water pastry isn't sticky), making the
> form easy to remove with a twist of the stick. The pastry will also harden
> pretty dramatically as it cools off.
>
> Now, I have no compelling evidence to suggest that this method was used in
> period, nor that anything like a hot-water dough appears until the
> seventeenth century, but it's tempting to assume such a thing could have
> been done (whether or not it actually was is another story), since the
> technology clearly existed for other types of manufacture.
>
> As for the question of the thickness of the pastry and whether you need
> support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled with
> something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place.
>
> Adamantius
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:10:30 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 21, 2005, at 6:50 PM, Nancy Kiel wrote:
> My understanding is that since the piecrust of a standing pie was not
> the light, flaky delicacy we know and love today, it was not intended
> to be eaten, and therefore needn't be made really thin. Looking at
> some pictures of standing pies from Dutch paintings, the pies appear
> to have been broken open, rather than sliced, and the crust is
> definitely thicker (2-3 times at least) than the metal plate onwhich
> it is served (Jan Davidsz. de Heem, 1606-1648, from THe Dutch Table
> by Gillian Riley).
While this may partly true, it is not always the case. Note the
warning in the recipe below about putting in too many eggs. This
implies that the crusts were (at least sometimes) intended to be eaten.
Source [The Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen, Stuart Peachey
(ed.)] To make Paste, and to raise Coffins. Take fine flower, and lay
it on a boord, and take a certaine of yolkes of Egges as your quantitie
of flower is, then take a certaine of Butter and water, and boil them
together, but ye must take heed ye put not too many yolks of Egges, for
if you doe, it will make it drie and not pleasant in eating: and yee
must take heed ye put not in too much Butter for if you doe, it will
make it so fine and short that you cannot raise. And this paste is good
to raise all manner of Coffins: Likewise if ye bake Venison, bake it in
the paste above named. (England, c. 1588) [emphasis added]
As for the thickness, check out the pictures below. In each the crust
is notably thin (with parts missing, which I assume have been eaten).
Still-life with Turkey-Pie, Pieter Claesz (c. 1630)
http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-a-4646.z
Breakfast Still-Life, Willem Claesz Heda (1637)
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/h/heda/breakfa.jpg
Breakfast Table with Blackberry Pie, Willem Claesz Heda (1631)
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/h/heda/breakfas.jpg
- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:39:29 -0800 (PST)
From: she not <atamagajobu at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Bear (referring to the interesting conversation with Adamantius) asked:
Do we know anything about the shape of raised coffins prior to 1600? Do we have any references as to their place in a feast? What do we know about raised coffins other than the recipes? If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form the shell inside or outside of the trappe ?
I don't have any of the sources to hand at the moment, working from
memory, but..
"If," Indeed. Think period solutions to period problems! raised pies,
as far as I can tell, were expedient to replace pans and dishes,
although now they're often baked in pans. (keep in mind that not
everybody had the resources a court cook like Taillevent had. Since
the royal kitchen always needed to feed lots of people, he would have
had more pans on hand than most of his contemporaries) Using a trap is
easier, but not necessary. and after all, why put hot food on a cold
dish when you can send it out in nice filling pastry that won't suck
the heat right out of it?
I had a very good collection of articles on food and travelling items
published as a memoriam for a Canadian archeologist/anthropologist- ca
1950's, which included a prewar study from a Polish peasant village on
household distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most
households had 2-5 pans of different sizes, small to medium, very small
households (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy
households and large farms with many workers had 8-12 pots, including
2-3 large ones and a few special purpose pans. occasions like
holidays and weddings were community efforts: the host provided the
food, but borrowed pots to cook it in. (loaning these pots was a social
duty affirming communal relations and mutual dependency, as well as a
custom enabling suitable display for a celebration, comparable to the
borrowed lying-in gear gathered from various noble connections you will
see in the Lisle letters.)
the thickness of the pastry and whether you need
> support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled with
> something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place...
Most modern raised pies, pork pies being the most common, are pretty
much a galantine, i.e., are baked with a dry filling, which is then
sealed with a jellied stock poured in hot. (hence the required hole cut
in the top pastry-you remove it, fill the pie with stock, then replace
it) This does slow down spoilage, by sealing air away from the food, in
the same way later pies are filled with butter, and of course, as pates
and other cooked meats are sealed with lard in charcuteries. This in
itself is a pretty good argument that it's a period practice-
preservation methods developed pre-refrigeration are probably survivals
from medieval times. (think how popular galantines were in high
medieval and renaissance cookbooks, often using vinegar or wine as some
part of the liquid. they didn't NEED to be made in a fancy mold, they
could just as easily be made in a coffyn.) Pouring in liquid after
baking also flavors and moistens the crust as well as the filling,
similar technique to pouring the syrup on baklava -try eating a pork or chicken pie without that jelly! Also, putting the lid on, sealed with water ( and flour, for choice) DOES help keep the crust from flopping before it's baked.
This crust needs to be about 1/4 inch thick or more to work.
Elizabeth David's English book had the best recipe i've used for a
traditional raised pork pie with hot water crust- I manage to do it
without a pan, and I am notoriously all thumbs. (I use her suggestion
of forming it first on an upside down loaf pan, but it can be done
freestyle...just not by me)
the long oblong shape is very practical, since it yields many
attractive cross sections (slices) with minimal crust, but the filling
isn't so heavy it breaks under its own weight, which were doubtless
concerns in period too.
Pies may have been molded, when possible, but most of what I've seen
indicates that they are built up or raised: later recipes suggest a
strip of paper attached around the upper part to stabilize it, and I
have seen a "twist" of hay or straw suggested for the purpose in other
descriptions. Baking flour in a shell is sometimes suggested the same
way we use beans to bake a blind-as for live birds in a pie- and
there's no reason to suppose the flour was tossed afterward, since
there are several uses for toasted flour. (and rice)
"some manuscript
illuminations that show free-standing pastries: I'd guess (scale
being what it is in such drawings) that a pie in a medieval feast
might have been anywhere from maybe six inches high and ten inches
across, to larger, looking vaguely like a hatbox with a slightly
domed, but inset/flanged lid. "
some bird shaped pies were simply formed around the bird to be baked;
this is especially good for a boned stuffed bird. the flange is the
doubled crust that holds it together. I think I've seen this in
illustrations -probably the same ones! It would be relatively easy to
do with the pretty mosaic of arranged multiple meats for a galantine
too, since the crust would keep a mound of meats together for baking,
and the jelly stabilizes the whole thing afterward. The construction
is useful when you're dealing with the mixed game "bag" result from a
recreational hunt, which may not yield enough ducks or quail for a
separate dish, but plenty, combined with the rabbits and some ham,
chicken, etc, for pies to supplement the roast. Raised pies lend
themselves to decoration outside too- coats of arms, flowers, etc, can
be cut out of leftover paste and laid on top and "glued" to the sides
with egg, gilded or otherwise colored. Remember too, these pies are
served COLD, so are much more stable (and portable) than when hot, and, of course, can be baked and kept for use as needed, hence the preservation/sealing angle.
Martino's live birds in a pie uses a trappe to form the shell
and a filling of flour to hold the shape of the top crust. Why raise a
coffin, rather then mold a shell? Habit? even baking? lack of a suitable mold?
"aren't there menu references and recipes to Great Pies and Pies de Paris in
fifteenth century England? I was struck by the absence of recipes in
earlier English sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give fairly detailed instructions for, at least, the fillings.
One could argue the 15th century English recipe for a Grete Pye is an
evolution, or (and more likely) importation from the Continent."
Can't check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie
was a fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes -
conspicuous consumption being very popular, especially for the
merchant class primarily affected by them.
Not entirely apropos, but possibly a survival of the towers and great
pyes;:) England's traditional layered wedding cake was actually several
different cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to
absent friends, and the top a fruitcake to be shared on the first
anniversary- lots of ceremony involved in deconstructing it-I think
Eliza Acton had that recipe.
Gisele
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:22:32 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
All of these appear to have been baked in a form. Woodcuts from about 200
years earlier show pastries being baked in round deep walled dishes
(trappes). These look suspiciously like what would come out of the dishes
in the woodcut.
Bear
> As for the thickness, check out the pictures below. In each the crust
> is notably thin (with parts missing, which I assume have been eaten).
>
> Still-life with Turkey-Pie, Pieter Claesz (c. 1630)
> http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-a-4646.z
>
> Breakfast Still-Life, Willm Claesz Heda (1637)
> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/h/heda/breakfa.jpg
>
> Breakfast Table with Blackberry Pie, Willem Claesz Heda (1631)
> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/h/heda/breakfas.jpg
>
> - Doc
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Bear (referring to the interesting conversation with adamantius) asked:
> Do we know anything about
> the shape of raised coffins prior to 1600? Do we have any references as to
> their place in a feast? Whatdo we know about raised coffins other than the
> recipes?
> If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form
> the shell inside or outside of the trappe ?
>
> I don't have any of the sources to hand at the moment, working from
> memory, but..
My question is "what do we know?" I'm asking for facts, not speculation.
I have found that when I gather facts and examine them, they produce a very
different picture from what "everyone knows."
> "If," indeed..think period solutons to period problems! raised pies, as
> far as I can tell, were expedient to replace pans and dishes, although now
> they're often baked in pans. (keep in mind that not everybody had the
> resources a court cook like Taillevent had. Since the royal kitchen
> always needed to feed lots of people, he would have had more pans on hand
> than most of his contemporaries) Using a trap is easier, but not
> necessary. and after all, why put hot food on a cold dish when you can
> send it out in nice filing pastry that won't suck the heat right out of
> it?
Most of the recipes we reference are from noble households which had to feed
lots of people. They had considerable resources including well stocked
kitchens and, often, well stocked bakeries.
As for the trappes, they are baking pans. The pastries are baked in them.
The pastry can either be removed from them or served in them.
> I had a very good collection of articles on food and travelling items
> published as a memoriam for a canadian arheologist/anthropologist- ca
> 1950's, which included a prewar study from a Polish peasant village on
> household distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most households
> had 2-5 pans of different sizes, small to medium, very small households
> (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy households and
> large farms with many workers had 8-12 pots, including 2-3 large ones and
> a few special purpose pans. occasions like holidays and weddings were
> community efforts: the hst provided the food, but borrowed pots to cook
> it in. (loaning these pots was a social duty affirming communal relations
> and mutual dependency, as well as a custom enabling suitable display for a
> celebration, comparable to the borrowed lyig-in gear gathered from
> various noble connections you will see in the Lisle letters.)
Interesting, but of little import unless it can be demonstrated that peasant
families in the High Middle Ages baked raised coffins. The fact that raised
coffins appear lower on the social scale in Late Renaissance and Early
Modern does not necessarily support their use at those social levels in the
Middle Ages.
> Martino's live birds in a pie uses a trappe to form the shell
> and a filling of flour to hold the shape of the top crust. Why raise a
> coffin, rather then mold a shell?
>
> Habit? even baking? lack of a suitable mold?
From the woodcuts I've seen baker's had the habit of using pans
(trappes) for baking pastries. The medieval heat mass oven produces an even
heat matched only by a modern convection oven. Possibly the lack of a
suitable pan, but I want to see the evidence. Professionals have and use
professional tools, and the cooks and bakers of the Middle Ages were no
exception.
> "arent
> there menu references and recipes to Great Pies and Pies de Paris in
> fifteenth century England? I was struck by the absence of recipes in
> earlier English
> sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give
> fairly detailed instrctions for, at least, the fillings.
>
> One could argue the 15th century English recipe for a Grete Pye is an
> evolution, or (and more likely) importation from the Continent."
>
> cant check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie was a
> fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes - conspicuous
> consumption being very popular, especially for the merchant class
> primarily affected by them.
>
> not entirely apropos, but possibly a survival of the towers and great> pyes;:) > Englands tradtional layered wedding cake was actually several
> different cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to
> absent friends, and the top a fruitcake to be shared on the first
> anniversary- lots of ceremony involved n deconstructing it-I think Eliza
> Acton had that recipe.
>
> gisele
This argument may have some merit. I don't have a copy available, but if
anyone can locate one, may I suggest: Baldwin, F.E., Sumptuary Legislation
and Personal Regulation in England, John Hopkins Press, 1926.
Bear
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:25:43 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
As we continue to go round and round on coffyns
I still think that Countess Alys was correct in pointing out that
much can be learned by looking at Ivan Day's website.
Here I'll provide the links--
http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm
http://www.historicfood.com/Banniet%20tort%20recipe.htm
http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe2.htm
http://www.historicfood.com/medlar%20tart%20recipe.htm
http://www.historicfood.com/Setcustards.htm
I suspect that it will take a major research effort to really come up with some answers and not just speculations on this topic and even then there's a good chance that the practice varied over time and place depending upon ingredients
and use. I am sorry but I just don't have the time at the moment to do it.
Johnnae
>>>
from 18 February 2005
Greetings! Ivan Day has some "fancy pies" on his website
(historicfood.com). With one of them is a carved wooden mould to produce
leaves which are placed as decoration on the lids. That would be a fast
way for non-artistic types to produce quality decorations in quantity. He
also shows some metal tins for making the decorative sides. I think these
are from the mid-1600s and later.
Alys Katharine
<<<
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:55:21 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 23, 2005, at 7:07 PM, Nancy Kiel wrote:
> Something to look for (hint, hint, researchers): period
> descriptions/instructions for serving pies
From "The Boke of Keruynge" by Wynkyn de Worde (Peter Brears, ed.)
[from facsimile]
All bake metes that ben hote open them aboue the coffyn & all that ben
colde open theym in the mydwaye.
Custarde cheke them inche square that your souerayne may ete therof.
Doucettes pare away the sydes & the bottome beware of fumosytees. (?)
Fruyter vaunte fruyter saye be good better is fruyter pouche apple
fruyters ben good hote: and all cold fruyters touche not.
[Brears' translation]
All hot meat pies: open the crust at the top, and all cold, at the side.
Custard: cut it in inch squares for your lord.
Doucettes: pare away the sides and the bottom; beware of indigestible
parts.
Meat fritters and sage fritters are good; pouch fritter is better.
Apple fritters are good hot; but do not touch any cold fritters.
