fruit-citrus-msg

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fruit-citrus-msg - 12/15/14

Period citrus fruits. Recipes. Oranges. Limes. Lemons.

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:08:39 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C

marilyn traber wrote:

> If memory serves me, limes we use today are a post period subspecies

> cross of lemon and key lime but i may be wrong, though in herbals a lime

> tree is mentioned, it is a temperate deciduous tree fond in england and

> the leaves are used.

As far as I know, there are three types of citrus fruit limes. Persian

limes and Tahitian limes are the Old World varieties, although the

Tahitian lime was discovered by Europeans more or less after the

discovery of the New World Lime, which is the Key lime. Persian limes

are pretty much the only period option, but you'd be most likely to find

them in Indian and Persian dishes. Persian limes are small, maybe two

inches across, roundish, and have a thin skin. (Key limes are even

smaller, spherical, with an even thinnner skin, which is almost yellow

when ripe). Tahiti limes, which have achieved the status thay have

reached in spite of being kinda insipid, but are generally seedless,

easy to peel, and travel extremely well, are large, oblong, and with the

ubiquitous bumps at either end.

Adamantius

Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 20:26:34 UT

From: "Paul Louis" <pocopup at classic.msn.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C

Paul Louis wrote:

> Try the key lime oil . It is very intense, and a little goes a long

> way.I have been using it in my Thai recipies. Great to know that I can use it

> in my SCA cooking too.

> Olga

Where did you get the oil at?

margali

I ordered it, from Sexton, I think. It is available in specialty stores. Brand

name is "Floribbean" Key Lime Savory Oil.

Olga

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:32:39 -0400 (EDT)

From: ANN1106 at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange

I have never heard of the orange/lemon juice as a substitute for bitter

orange. When I make a Bitter Orange Sauce to be used with desserts, I cut

the peel of half of the oranges that I will be using and add this to the

juice. The sauce is then heated (with cornstarch, sugar and juice of a

lemon). When ready, the peels are allowed to macerate for 30 minutes before

straining and storing.

Cointreau and Triple Sec are two alcoholic liqueurs that are made from

Seville (Bitter) Oranges.

Audrey (aaparker at aol.com)

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:09:50 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange

ANN1106 at aol.com wrote:

> I have never heard of the orange/lemon juice as a substitute for bitter

> orange. When I make a Bitter Orange Sauce to be used with desserts, I cut

> the peel of half of the oranges that I will be using and add this to the

> juice. The sauce is then heated (with cornstarch, sugar and juice of a

> lemon). When ready, the peels are allowed to macerate for 30 minutes before

> straining and storing.

> Cointreau and Triple Sec are two alcoholic liqueurs that are made from

> Seville (Bitter) Oranges.

> Audrey (aaparker at aol.com)

I have heard of it; while addition of some peel certainly helps with the

bitter aspect, the fact is that Seville oranges aren't nearly as sweet

as most of the varieties available to Americans. Probably a combination

of lemon and orange, with a bit of the orange peel, would be best.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:00:58 -0400 (EDT)

From: Ladypeyton at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange

>I believe I have seen a substitute for bitter orange

My copy of The Miami Spice Cookbook (Cuban cooking) which uses bitter oranges

in every third recipe says that straight lime juice is a suitable

replacement. Too Hot Tamales on Food TV Network say either a mixture of 1/2

orange juice & 1/2 grapefruit juice or 1/2 orange juice & 1/2 lime juice.

Lady Peyton

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:24:20 -0600

From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>

Subject: SC - A bit Bland--Now Jazzed up

>I have recently whipped up an almond tart, which is remarkably period,

>however that is the only remarkable thing about it. While I don't know

>much about English cooking in the late 1500's, I would love some...

>topping to use that would be period.

>Bogdan

Bogdan, here are a cuple of ideas for your use: Pickled lemons (recipe

follows) which is basically based on anecdotal evidence and adapted from two

other similar recipes, or preserved oranges from Good Huswife's Jewel

(Dawson). Both are English, and fit into your time frame. I can paraphrase

my redaction for the oranges but don't have my source right in front of me.

Devilish Idea: Use both since they have a similar process, and then

alternate the thin slices on the top of the almond tart, making a fan.

Beautiful! Now I feel inspired! BTW the syrup from both the recipes is

wonderful and makes a great beverage mixed with cold water. So that would

kill two birds with one stone at a forthcoming feast, Yes?

Hope that the oranges/lemons "make" the dish, the next time you try it. I'm

Sorry I saw your message after the offending tart had already been consumed!

Aoife

_______________________________________

Preserved Oranges:

Take four perfect oranges (I like tangerines, actually, because of flavor

and medieval-type size. Bonus: with a thin skin, they are far less bitter

after preserving. I'm not sure how thick the skin of period fruit would have

been, but some recipes such as the original in Dawson have us soaking the

fruit overnight to partially re-hydrate them ). Take two oranges that are

not so perfect. Wash them all. Juice the two imperfect oranges and set aside

the juice (discard the peel). The perfect oranges are treated thusly: Make a

small core-type hole in the stem end big enough to insert your little

finger, pulling out any white membrane attached to the core. Discard.

Holding the orange over a bowl to catch any juice, insert a paring knife and

twist it several times, to break up the membranes inside. Insert your little

finger into the hole and press gently towards the side walls, dislodging as

many seeds as possible. Allow the seeds and juice to flow into the bowl.

Now, take the tip of the knife and prick the outer skin all over fairly

closely together (these pricks do not show up in the finished product). Set

aside and repeat with the remaining three oranges.

On the rangetop, have two large pots of boiling water (2/3 full) going at a

rolling boil. Immerse all the oranges in the first pot. Return to a boil and

boil for five minutes. Remove with a slotted spoon, and place in the second

pot. Discard the water in the first and boil it again with fresh water.

Continue shifting the oranges between pots until they are tender and the

skin is slightly transparant. A thin sliver of the skin should taste citrusy

but not bitter. As this point (which may take 5-7 boilings), set the oranges

aside in your drippings-bowl to drain.

In a clean saucepan, put one cup of water, all the orange juice, all the

drippings (strained of seeds), and 2 cups sugar. Beat in the white of one

egg with a whisk. Slowly bring to a boil and continue beating, until you are

sure no threads of egg white will form. Scum off any foam that rises (there

will be a lot---discard it or eat it as you please). Carefully lower the

oranges into the sugar syrup, and simmer for about 5 minutes. Turn the fire

off and let the oranges cool in the pot. They can be sealed airtight and

stored in the fridge, or they can be canned. I kept mine on the counter, in

a period method sealed with a waxed parchment on top, but it grew a beard of

white mold. When the mold was removed, however, the oranges were uneffected.

I can't keep them longer than a month (they're devoured), so I can't speak

to longevity.

That's the gist of the recipe that won me the Dessert category at Ice

Dragon, served with almond butter and crisp flaky pastry rounds . Hope it

works for you!

__________________________________

Pickled Lemons (adapted from Preserved Orenges, Dawson, and A Sallet of

Lemons from A book of Fruits and Flowers, and various anecdotal evidence

such as Elizabeth Ayreton's Food in Briton, etc.). This recipe copyright

1997 by L. Herr-Gelatt.

2 blemish-free lemons

Juice and zest of 1 lemon (no white)

1 cup white wine (sweet, like Rhine wine)

1 c. sugar

1/3 cup vinegar (I used home-made costmary/lemon verbena vinegar)

Cut a small round hole in the 2 lemons the size of the end of your little

finger. Remove the piece of peel. Insert a paring knife into the hole and

give it several twists to loosen and break the membranes. Insert little

finger and press gently against the flesh to try and loosen any pits. Remove

the pits that fall out, and reserve the draining lemon juice for syrup, below.

Gently bring to boil 1 quart of water in a suacepan. Lower lemons into the

pan and boil rapidly 5 minutes. Remove and drain. Repeat 3 more times with

fresh water (it is more efficient to have a pan heating while boiling in

another). Drain them well.

In a separate saucepan combine remaining ingredients (and the drained lemon

juice from above). Bring to a boil to combine, and turn off heat. When

lemons have been boiled in the 4 changes of water, put them (drained) into

the wine-syrup mixture and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer approx.

15 minutes or until syrup volume has reduced by 1/3-1/2. Cool. Remove lemon

zest and reserve for another use (it is now candied).

Store in an airtight container. Slice lemons thinly or dice and use pieces

in salads.

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:00:54 -0400

From: "Paul and Jillian Louis" <pocopup at email.msn.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Blood Oranges

I remember a bit of information about blood oranges from my teaching days,

unfortunately I do not have the sources from whence I picked this up,

Blood oranges were found by the crusaders on the island of Malta. Hence the

name of the Hollandaise variante that uses their juice " Sauce Maltaise"

They have a dark red interior when they are ripe. if they are harvested too

imature, the juice is bitter. When allowed to ripen on the tree their juice

is sweeter than your average navel orange.

If you wish to work in with blood orange juice in large quantities there is

a good product on the market from Assoline and Ting.

hope this helps,

Olga

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:58:31 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Blood Oranges

> The orange used in medieval times was the Seville, or sour orange, which I

> believe is still available in Europe. I use the sour Valencias off my mom's

> tree to approximate the taste.

> Renata

According to ye olde quick ref, oranges originate in China and were

transplanted into India from there, then from India into the Middle East.

Seville oranges (Citrus aurantium) were introduced into Spain by the Moors

and from there into Europe.

The Portuguese introduced a variety of sweet oranges from Japan about 1529.

I suspect, but do not know, that these were C. reticulata, which include the

mandarine orange, the tangerine and the Satsuma varieties.

C. sinensis, which are sweeter still and include Navel and Valencia oranges,

were introduced to Europe about 1635.

Given those points, your Valencias may actually be Sevilles.

I've been trying to find Sevilles locally without much luck. I wanted to

try my hand at making marmalade.

Bear

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:25:38 -0900

From: "Reia M. Chmielowski" <kareina at eagle.ptialaska.net>

Subject: RE: SC - Re: Pine Nut Confection -- One Last Time

>Limes were cultivated in the Indus Valley about 4000 BC and in China around

>700. So the question is, when did they get to Europe? Unfortunately, I

>don't have any other sources handy to cross reference.

According to _The Visual Food Encyclopedia_ published by Macmillan USA 1996

ISBN 0 -02-861006-7

"The lime tree was brought to France and Italy by the Crusaders in the 13th

Century." It doesn't happen to cite its source, but then encyclopedias

often don't within articles...

- --Kareina

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:29:43 +0000

From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>

Subject: re: SC - Re: Limes

At 08:03 06/01/1999 -0700, Gwen-Cat wrote re limes:

>Citron shel uberzogen

>Limone shel uberzogen

>I translate this as Lemon peel coated and Lime peel coated...

I agree that Limone is lemon, but I think Citron is likley to be Citron -

another member of the citrus family. The fruit is pale green, about the

size and shape of an avacodo but with *very* thick citrus skin (almost the

entire fruit). The candied peel/fruit is still used in many German and

Italian recipies - I buy it from the deli. It has a great taste, similar to

but distinct from candied lemon peel.

Rowan

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:47:40 -0700 (MST)

From: grasse at mscd.edu

Subject: Re: SC - Re: Limes

Grettings again,

I have another question before I try to answer further... If the Spanish

(whom I would consider European) introduced the lime to the west Indies -

where did they get it from?

As promised I did some further rummaging in Rumpolt, as well as in Cerruti,

Gerard, and some others.

Rumpolt (as I am sure you are familiar with) has (in the section on sauces?

- - have only had him 2 {filled with mundane and prior commitments} weeks,

I have not yet explored him fully) 2 recipes specific to Zitron and 1 for

Limonien (I double checked the spellings he uses, my original spellings

were in error.)

In my translation I will use the word lemon, though for the argument one

could also use the word citron - Marx does not speak of cooking either and

I do not know if raw citron is (was?) palatable?

#6 uses "breit geschnitten zitron mit weissem zucker bestrauet/ fein gut

und wohl geschmack" (thick?) cut lemons sprinkled with white sugar/ fine

good and well tasty.

#7 uses "klein gehackt zitron mit weissem zucker der wohl gestossen ist

abgemacht"

small (finely) chopped lemon seasoned with well crushed white sugar.

#23 states "nim saur frishe limonien wals gie das sie weich werden/

schneidt sie von einander und druck den saft herauss/ tue die kern davon/

mach ab mit zimmet und zucker/ so ists gut un wohlgeschmack/ du kanst auch

solchen saft der lecker (?sorry can't read my scribbles this morning) ist

sieden lassen mit gelautertem zucker un wen er fein dick gesotten so kan

man zum braten brauchen

My interpretation is (though for arguments sake insert lemon instead of

lime if you wish)

take sour limes, roll (I am guessing walg equates to welz - to roll-

rolling on the counter ) so they become soft, cut them apart and squeeze

the juice from them, remove the seeds, then season with cinnamon and sugar

so that it is good and tasty. You can also also take such (tasty?) juice

(before or after seasoning I can't tell) and simmer it with (gelaeutertem -

another I'm not sure word) sugar and when it has become fine and thick so

use it for a roast. I assume to accompany like a jelled sauce.

I would love to experiment with the above recipies using lemons, limes and

citrons, to see how they react and taste using his techniques, but I have

no clue where in Denver (CO, US) to obtain fresh citron...

My thought being that if fresh citron is inedible raw chopped with sugar

then Zitron should equate to Lemon, but the cooked thickened stuff would

probably taste well made with either lemon or lime, so it would probably

not prove anything. (besides I still wouldn't know how it would taste with

period grown lemons/citrons/limes...)

The other thing that led me to make the equations I have made (Zitron =

lemon; Limionen = lime) rather than Zitron = citron and Limione = lemon is

that Limione =lemon is using English words; (the modern German is Zitrone

= lemon; Limone/Limette = lime. ) Rumpolt is writing German, when he

speaks of preparing Star he is not writing of cooking celestial bodies but

of using starling - a small domestic song bird. Most of the ingredients he

uses sound out into the modern German words. Certainly not definitive

proof, but that is how I arrived at my assumption.

I am not aware of a German OED (OGD??? ;-)) but if one is found I would be

thrilled! I believe the main branch of the local library has some middle

German reference books, and I will endeavor to visit them soon.

Gwen-Cat

Caerthe

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:37:39 -0700

From: Ronda Del Boccio <Serian at plinet.com>

Subject: SC - Limes -- from EB

Limes:

Limes probably originated in the Indonesian archipelago or the nearby

mainland of Asia. The Arabs may have taken limes, as well as lemons, from

India to the eastern Mediterranean countries and Africa around AD 1000.

Limes were introduced to the western Mediterranean countries by returning

crusaders in the 12th and 13th centuries. Columbus took citrus-fruit seed,

probably including limes, to the West Indies on his second voyage in 1493,

and the trees soon became widely distributed in the West Indies, Mexico,

and Florida.

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:42:34 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long)

I have just been reading the first chapter of a multi-volume work called

_The Citrus Industry_, which goes into considerable detail about what the

evidence is on what citrus fruit came into use when and where. This is a

summary of its conclusions.

The author of this chapter, Herbert John Webber, concludes that all citrus

are native to southern Asia and the Malay Archipelago. Cultivated citrus go

way back in China; the earliest mention he knows of concerns tribute

(oranges and pummeloes) given to an emperor around 2200 B.C. A Chinese book

on oranges written in 1178 A.D. describes some twenty-seven varieties of

sweet, sour, and mandarin oranges, as well as kumquats and citrons.

The citron seems to be the first citrus fruit known in the West, having

become established in Persia by around 500 B.C. and spreading slowly around

the eastern end of the Mediterranean from there. The Romans of the first

century A.D probably grew citrons in the southern parts of Italy and knew

of lemons and sour oranges, although it seems to be debatable whether or

not they grew them. The collapse of the Roman empire seems to have left

citrons growing, in part growing wild, in Sicily and southern Italy, and no

other citrus surviving in Italy.

The Arabs continued the spread of citrus fruit; by the 10th century the

sour orange was known and there were references to importing new varieties

from India, and by the 12th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and pummelo

had all made it as far as Spain and North Africa. There is also a 12th

mention of the pummelo in Palestine by a Christian pilgrim, and a

13th-century Arab reference to what is probably lime. By the 13th century

lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably lime are described from

northern Italy.

The sweet orange is mentioned in a few documents from the second half of

the 15th century as growing in Italy and southern France, and seems to have

been fairly widely grown in southern Europe by the early 16th century. In

1520 or thereabouts the Portuguese brought a new and superior sweet orange

variety from China, which then spread around the citrus-growing areas of

Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries. Mandarin oranges do not seem to have

made it to Europe until the early 19th century.

The pummelo or shaddock, which is a thick-skinned citrus fruit about the

size of a grapefruit, seems to have followed the same paths across Europe

and the Arab world as the sour orange and lemon. It was introduced to the

West Indies by the 17th century; the grapefruit, probably a mutation from

the shaddock, is first mentioned in 1750 from Barbados.

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:44:38 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long)

Just a brief followup to Elizabeth's post.

It turns out that both Citron and Sour Orange trees are still available,

although not terribly common. I bought one of each today from a nursery in

Fremont that specializes in citrus (I gather that the founder is the person

responsible for developing the grafted dwarf citruses a few decades back).

The citron is an Etrog--still used in Jewish ritual. The orange is a

Seville Orange, still used for marmalade and (according to the tag) Middle

Eastern cooking.

So in a few years, if all goes well, we can make our naranjiya right.

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:05:32 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long)

At 7:34 AM -0500 3/6/99, Tollhase1 at aol.com wrote:

>Is this Fremont Ohio perchance, I could not get that lucky? I would love to

>find out the size of oranges used in an apple orange tart. Just how

>sweet/tart were period oranges?

Fremont California, I'm afraid. But there is at least one source for both

trees in California that is on the web and sells mailorder--Pacific Tree

Farms at:

http://www.kyburg.com/ptf/Default.htm

The nursery where I got my trees gave me a sour orange from one of their

trees. It weighs just under a quarter of a pound. I don't know how typical

that is. I haven't tasted it yet, but I gather that they are too sour for

eating out of hand, and used mostly for marmalade.

What is the source for your apple orange tart recipe? If it is 16th or 17th

century, it might be using sweet oranges.

David Friedman

Professor of Law

Santa Clara University

ddfr at best.com

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:02:55 -0000

From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>

Subject: Re: SC - Oranges and "orange" - OT/(?)OOP

Bear wrote:

>It appears to have originally been a town and region in southeast France,

>Orenge.

>as to when it was first used to describe the color, I have no information

>present.

According to The Gourmet´s Guide by John Ayto:

"The Spanish naturalized naranj as naranja, but when the word penetrated

further north to France in the late thirteenth century it became transmuted

to orenge, later orange, perhaps partly undir the influence of the town of

Orange, in southeastern France, a centre of the orange trade ... Orange is

first recorded as a colour term in the sixteenth century." There is also

some speculation that the term may have been influenced by the French word

"or", gold.

Mark Morton says in Cupboard Love: " ... what did the English call the

colour orange before they adopted the word orange? To some extent, other

colours did double duty: fire, for example, was described as being red.

However, not much of this double-dutying was actually neccessary because in

rainy, grey, medieval England orange was simply not a colour that commonly

appeared in nature ... it´s little wonder that their vibrant appearance gave

rise to a new colour name."

I might add that orange was not a color frequently seen in rural Iceland in

the early sixties, either. When we used it, even to describe the oranges we

had about once a year, we called it "rau›gult" (red-yellow). I hardly ever

heard the Icelandic term equivalent to orange ("appelsínugult",

yellow-as-an-orange) until much later. So I can well believe that there was

little need for a separate name for this color in medieval times.

Nanna

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:42:14 +1000

From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M at casa.gov.au>

Subject: SC - RECIPES: Orange Cakes from Fettiplace

Lorix,

> The recipe basically consisted of taking the

> flesh of LOTS of oranges with an equal weight

> of sugar, combining and then rolling into

> little balls and baking.

Ok, Fettiplace has the following (it also has a recipe for candied orange

peel (do you want that one too?). Please advise if this is not the recipe

you wanted.

Meliora.

To Make Cakes of Orenges

Take some oringes & take out the meat of them, then pick them cleane from

the white skins, & stamp them in a stone morter, very fine, then take away

the iuice that is too much, & wey to a pound of the orenges a pound of the

finest white sugar beaten very fine, & put it to your orenges, beating them

all together a good while till they bee throughlie mingled, then take it

out, & lay them upon plates, of what fashion you best like, but they must be

very thin, then set them to drying, & when they bee half dry, turne them,

they wilbee soone dry.

Spurling's directions seem to be (I have occasionally paraphrased here):

Peel the fruit carefully, removing all of the white pith, and discard the

peel (or use in another recipe). Remove the pips, reduce the orange flesh

to a paste in a stone mortar or electric mixer, and strain off any surplus

juice. Weigh this paste and pound it again with an equal weight of white

sugar. Pour the mixture onto a large flat plate and set in a warm place,

turning it as soon as the top has dried out, so as to harden off the

underside.

Spurling adds that these taste especially delicious if you dry them off in a

slow oven till they begin to brown and caramelize, when they can be rolled

by hand into little balls or drops with a dark, burnt-orange taste to serve

after dinner with coffee.

Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:57:24 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - ETROG JELLY

At 8:28 AM -0400 10/17/99, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

>Jews have a holiday just like Thanksgiving called *Sukkot* (Festival of the

>Booths) Anyway as part of the religious practices they use a fruit called an

>etrog which looks almost exactly like a lemon. When the holiday is over, what

>do you do with the very expensive lemon thingie?? You make Etrog Jelly .. Of

>course! Here is a recipe I came across.

The etrog is a variety of citron--the oldest (I think) of the citrus fruit.

It was known in Europe throughout out period, and appears in the Andalusian

cookbook. And I have one growing by my driveway--although, given how slowly

citrus trees grow, it may be a while before it produces any fruit.

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:54:24 -0000

From: nanna at idunn.is (Nanna Rognvaldardottir)

Subject: Re: SC - Help for Novices

Cadoc wrote:

>Clementines are small oranges from California, I think, kinda like a

>tangerine...

Clementines are a tangerine/Seville orange hybrid which originated in Oran

in Algiers around 1900 but were introduced into Florida in 1909 and

California in 1914. They are named after the original grower, Father

Clément. It has few seeds and is juicy and usually quite tasty.

Nanna

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:00:31 -0600

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>

Subject: SC - Re: SC- Tidbits

Bluwlf17 at cs.com writes:

<< How period are lemons? Did they have citris trees in Europe? >>

>In southern Europe, yes. I know lemons show up in Elizabethan recipes, and

>oranges as early as the 15th century for northern Europe.

>Brangwayna Morgan

>According to Barbara Santich in _The Original Mediterranean Cuisine_,

>citrus trees originated in India, and were introduced to Mediterranean

>Europe by the Arabs. They were "reasonably common" in Italy by the

>13th century.

>Citrus fruits (and their juices) are most common in period recipes from

>southern Europe, especially Spain and Italy.

>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Actually, lemons were a well known fruit in Roman times,

imported from Asia minor. They never caught on in cooking

of that time however; they were only used as decorative fruit.

Probably there were a few instances of trees in southern

Italy grown from seed, but they were likely curiousities and

died out with the fall of Rome. Therefore, they were Re-introduced

from the Arabic cultures, likely through Portuguese traders in the

early 13th century. Lemons were grown in Persia in biblical times.

Akim

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:18:56 -0500

From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: SC- Tidbits

>>Citrus fruits (and their juices) are most common in period recipes from

>>southern Europe, especially Spain and Italy.

>>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

>Actually, lemons were a well known fruit in Roman times,

>imported from Asia minor. They never caught on in cooking

>of that time however; they were only used as decorative fruit.

>Probably there were a few instances of trees in southern

>Italy grown from seed, but they were likely curiousities and

>died out with the fall of Rome. Therefore, they were Re-introduced

>from the Arabic cultures, likely through Portuguese traders in the

>early 13th century. Lemons were grown in Persia in biblical times.

My readings suggest that the reintroduction was also occuring via Sicily and

Spain. Sicily after it was retaken by the Normans, Roger the Count and his

son Roger the King, as a "prelude" to the first Crusade. By the way Ricard

the Lionheart's sister was married to the King of Sicily.

I have a recipe for very early 17th century lemonaid and a "sangria" type

drink made with red wine, apples, and lemons. If anyone is interested I

will supply the reference and the recipes.

Daniel Raoul le Vascon de Navarre'

Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:58:33 EST

From: Aelfwyn at aol.com

Subject: SC - Re:Juice of Sour Oranges

The juice I mentioned for the _Medieval Kitchen_ recipe is in a 24oz. bottle.

Labeled: GOYA Naranja Agria Bitter Orange marinade from concentrate. with a

pretty picture of some oranges. Ingredients say: water, Seville orange juice

concentrate, Seville orange pulp cells, preservatives....Now before folks can

flame about this being a from concentrate product, please consider that some

of us live in less than optimal food shopping areas. In 30+ years of grocery

shopping in Maine I have never seen actual Seville oranges that I could buy

and squeeze.

Aelfwyn

Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:29:18 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: Jucie of sour oranges

And it came to pass on 2 Apr 00,, that Aelfwyn at aol.com wrote:

> We used the stuff straight from the bottle as if using the fresh juice.

I just got hold of the Goya sour orange marinade. It says "from

concentrate", and it does seem to be re-constituted to juice

consistency. I found it more sour than the orange-lemon mixture that

_The Medieval Kitchen_ recommends -- much closer to the lemon end

of the spectrum. Nice stuff -- I am pleased to have learned about it.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:49:09 +1000

From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar at compassnet.com.au>

Subject: Re: SC - SAVILLE ORANGES

> ALSO.... I did buy a tin of saville oranges. The can says just add 6 LB of

> sugar and some water and you get orange marmalde. But if I don't want to

> make marmalade, what else can I do with it?

> Phillipa

A tin of oranges? I think I'll leave it alone!

However, Elinor Fettiplace has some recipes for lozenges/suckets called

Cakes of Orenges

Take some orenges & take out the meat of them, then pick them cleane from

the white skins, & stamp them in a stone morter, very fine, then take away

the juice that is too much, & wey to a pound of the orenges a pound of the

finest white sugar beaten very fine, & put it to your orenges, beating them

all together a good while till they bee throughlie mingled, then take it

out, & lay them upon platesm of what fashion you best like, but they must

bee very thin, then set them to drying, & when they bee half dry, turne

them, they welbee soone dry.

Best made, according to Hilary Spurling, with Seville oranges.

Quite an easy recipe, by the looks. I'll be trying it for our route march

(aka March or Die - 21km) in August (if I can get some sour oranges -

hopefully fresh and not tinned - Australia has an amazing amount of really

cheap fruit)

Glenda.

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:23:04 -0400

From: "Ron Rispoli" <rispoli at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC - pickled limes

From: KallipygosRed at aol.com

> I have a quest for your food list. I'm looking for a recipe for

>pickled limes

I haven't tried this yet, so let me know how it goes.

I assumed this is how the British navy kept limes for the sailors.

Select fully mature limes, just before they turn yellow. Scrape them

throughly and rinse. Pack the fruit, without crushing, in all-glass

containers to within 1 inch of the top and place a weight on top of the

limes to prevent the fruit from rising in the pickling solution. At no time

should the limes be exposed above the solution.

Completely fill the jars with a brine of 3 tablespoons salt in 1 quart

water. Adjust the rubber bands and tops on the jars, using only glass tops,

and partially seal. As fermentation takes place and the liquid recedes, add

more brine, keeping the jars full so that there will be no air space. The

limes should be cured in 6 to 8 weeks. Seal the jars completely and store.

The pickled limes may not retain their original color and may turn quite

brown, but this does not affect their edibility. Kumquats and calamondins

may be pickled in the same way.

Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:47:56 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Re: non-messy, period, dayboard-type food

> I'd agree with her as bitter oranges were developed earlier, or so I'm

> told, and also they are easier to work with (less white pith).

> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise

Not developed earlier, but available via the Moors in Spain. The sweet

Chinese orange appears to have arrived in Europe in the 15th Century with

Portuguese spice trade.

The first known arrival of oranges (from Spain) in England was about 1290

and early in the 14th Century they were being traded into France through

Nice.

Bear

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:49:11 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - TI Article - Support Kitchen

At 1:26 PM -0400 9/11/00, LrdRas at aol.com wrote:

>oranges (questionably period, perhaps very late),

As far as I can tell, sweet oranges get to Europe a century or so

before the end of our period. They are in use in China, of course,

much earlier. Sour oranges are available for all the usual SCA period

(i.e. everything after classical antiquity).

Later Ras writes:

>Orange slices are also period albeit

>sweet oranges in Europe would have been somewhat late in SCA period

>but perhaps not too out of time in the middle east

Do you have evidence that sweet oranges got to the Middle East

earlier? I'm pretty sure they were coming from China, so it is

plausible enough, especially given the close ties between the Ilkhans

and the Mongol rulers of China.

- --

David/Cariadoc

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:52:20 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Seville Oranges (was Re: Protectorate Feast)

Also, for the marmalade, I know that the Bakers Catalogue and sometimes Williams Sonoma sell MaMade Seville oranges canned just for marmalade!

Kiri

"Michael F. Gunter" wrote:

> Rather than settling for Valencias, may I recommend settling for

> bottled bitter orange juice?

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:13:32 EDT

From: <KCNCRESS at aol.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: orange history

Elizabeta asks:

{I have been thinking of something orange--but I'm told they are not

"period"--I guess it depends on where you are--I would think that for Spain

& perhaps Italy oranges would have been abundant--does anyone know for sure?}

I couldn't imagine that oranges weren't around in the middle ages. A brief

search turned up a fairly comprehensive report by Stephen Hui on just what

you're looking for. Check out the url....

http://www.sfu.ca/~shui/resources/orange.html#origins

" The word "orange" originates from Sanskrit. Following its modern-day form

from France, back to Italy (arancia), Portugal (laranja), Spain (naranja),

Neo-Latin (arangium, arantium and aurantium), Byzantium (nerantzium), Persia

(naranj) and India (naranga), we can learn about the immigration of oranges

from Asia to Europe (McPhee 1967). Citron was well known in the Mediterranean

region before Christian times (Janick et. al. 1981). Oranges arrived from

India and by the fall of the Roman Empire, thrived on the Italian Peninsula.

Sweet oranges are depicted on a mausoleum erected by Constantine (274-337

CE). However, the first written record of C. sinensis does not appear in

Europe until the fifteenth century (Cameron and Soost 1976). In the sixth and

seventh centuries, Muslim armies overran a vast territory stretching from

India to Spain; orange and other citrus trees decorate their trail. Arab

traders introduced further varieties of citrus fruits to Europe in the Middle

Ages. Northern Europe grew acquainted with them because of the Crusades."

Dejaniera,

Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:11:29 -0500

From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei at uiuc.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: orange history

>Elizabeta asks:

>{I have been thinking of something orange--but I'm told they are not

>"period"--I guess it depends on where you are--I would think that for Spain

>& perhaps Italy oranges would have been abundant--does anyone know for sure?}

"Blood oranges are closer to the medieval orange, which was

a Saville orange."

Thus says my DH Bogdan de la Brasov (he does period cooking and *tons* of

research on period cooking)

From what he has told me, they had oranges, it's just that the type they

had then are no longer genetically available and (above quote) is as close

as you can get in modern day.

Despina de la Brasov

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:51:14 -0600

From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>

Subject: SC - Seville oranges

In looking through a book I purchased today, "Mexican Cooking for Dummies",

I noticed they gave this substitution for Seville Oranges. While it is

better to have the real thing, sometimes you need to make a substitution,

so I thought some might find this useful.

2 parts grapefruit juice

1 part orange juice

2 tablespoons lime juice

While in World Market today I noticed they sold tubs that were for

making Seville Orange Marmalade. The tub said it had everything needed

but sugar. The tub listed Seville Orange juice but also had several

thickeners in it, so I wasn't sure if it would work in the period recipes

calling for Seville Orange juice or not. I will have to take more notes next

time I'm in the store on the exact ingredients.

The book also says about Seville Oranges "Also known as bitter oranges

or naranja agria, this small fruit has thick, green, bumpy skin and is

less juicy than an ordinary orange. Its potent sour juice replaces vinegar

in typical Yucatecan marinades and seasoning pastes. Although bitter

oranges are also found in Puerto Rico and Cuba [obviously an import from

Spain], only Mexicans prize the juice more than the fleshy skin. At

Mexican markets, the fruit is sold with the top layer of skin removed

so that the bitter oils don't seep into the juice."

What would you do with the skins? Make candied orange peel? I don't

remember the Seville Oranges that I've bought fresh being green, although

I would have said greenish orange rather than bright green. I wonder if

you would pick them green if you were wanting to accentuate the sour

taste? The ones I got were more "bumpy" than regular oranges which

tend to have a smoother skin.

- --

THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra

Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:58:17 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries

Stefan wrote:

> Did you find any evidence of use of limes in period? Where and when?

Our summary of the history of citrus in the Miscellany says:

By the 13th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably

lime are described from northern Italy.

The source for that is:

Batchelor, Leon D. and Webber, Herbert John, The Citrus Industry, 1946.

But I can't swear to their exact words. I might be able to dig up our

photocopy of the chapter if you want their source.

- --

David Friedman

ddfr at best.com

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:19:55 -0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries

And it came to pass on 17 Jan 01, , that david friedman wrote:

> Our summary of the history of citrus in the Miscellany says:

> By the 13th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably

> lime are described from northern Italy.

Herrera's agricultural manual (1513) specifically mentions limes in

the citrus fruit chapter. Unfortunately, he doesn't go into much

detail about their use, only that large limes and oranges can be

preserved whole in a honey syrup. I haven't noticed any other

references to limes in the Spanish/Catalan sources.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:34:59 -0500

From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries

Was asked:

>Did you find any evidence of use of limes in period? Where and when? Did

>you find evidence of them used in beverages?

From "The Illustrated History of French Cuisine" by Christian Guy, 1962 L of

C Cat Number 62-15020. The most whimsical/outragous reference found for use

of limes in period beverages.

Sir Edward Kennelís Punch

80 casks of brandy

9 casks of water

20,000 large limes

80 pints of lemon juice

13 quintals (1,300 pounds) of Lisbon sugar,

5 pounds of nutmeg

1 huge cask of Malaga wine (approximately equal to 100 regular casks at a

guess)

"It is written that on October 25, 1599, Sir Edward Kennel,

Commander-in-Chief of British Naval forces, offered to those of his command

and guests a mammoth punch which he had prepared in a huge marble basin on

his estate. A platform was built over the basin to shield it from the rain

and the beverage was served by a ship's boy who rowed around on the sea of

punch in a rosewood boat. It is reported that to serve the 6,000 guests one

ship's boy had to be replaced by another one the quarter hour over and over

again as each boy rapidly became intoxicated by the fumes from the pond of

punch."

Daniel Raoul

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:10:24 -0500

From: "Richard Kappler" <rkappler at home.com>

Subject: SC - period lime use

Being of a nautical bent (okay, okay, so usually I'm just bent...) my first

thought was to check for uses in combatting scurvy. A quick survey of my

references provided the following (granted, its late/post period):

"... [W]e have in our owne country here many excellent remedies generally

knowne, as namely, Scurvy-grasse, Horse-Reddish roots, Nasturtia Aquatica,

Wormwood, Sorrell, and many other good meanes... to the cure of those which

live at home...they also helpe some Sea-men returned from farre who by the

only natural disposition of the fresh aire and amendment of diet, nature

herselfe in effect doth the Cure without other helps." At sea, he states

that experience shows that "the Lemmons, Limes, Tamarinds, Oranges, and

other choice of good helps in the Indies... do farre exceed any that can be

carried tither from England."

John Woodall (1556-1643), military surgeon to Lord Willoughby's regiment

(1591), first surgeon-general to the East India Company (1612), surgeon to

St. Bartholomew's Hospital (1616-1643). Excerpted from _The Surgeon's Mate_

, 1617.

regards, Puck

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:11:36 -0600

From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: SC - Orange-flower Water

Greetings. Orange flower water is mentioned in some French recipes (IIRC)

and some of the English material. I've used it in the milk leche (jellied

milk cubes) and also in marzipan. Found a reference to using it in marzipan

in someone's book in period. It's a bit of a "jolt" when one expects rose

water, but I like it.

Alys Katharine

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:31:26 -0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: SC - Orange flower water

It's used in some period Spanish recipes, though not nearly as

often as rosewater. Nola puts it in a marzipan-and-chicken dish for

invalids. Granado uses it in one of his recipes for bizcocho

(biscotti). It appears in a lot of the perfume/cosmetic recipes in the

Manual de Mugeres.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:19:05 +0200

From: "Jessica Tiffin" <jessica at beattie.uct.ac.za>

Subject: Re: SC - Rose Water - now orange blossom water

Ilia wrote:

> >I was also considering picking up the orange blossom water that they

> >have. Would it be useful in period cooking?

Having just acquired Cariadoc's two-volume collection, and having

spent a happy two weeks digging through Digby and the rest: orange

blossom water is used in a fair number of English late

period/Elizabethan biscuitty-style things. (I don't have the books

with me so can't give specifics, but there were quite a few).

Lady Jehanne de Huguenin * Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town

(Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town)

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:36:43 -0400

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period food myths

On 6 Sep 2001, at 20:50, Laura C. Minnick wrote:

> Sweet oranges are not period but bitter ones are

Sweet oranges are (late) period for the Mediterranean area. There's

a dinner menu for a Spanish archbishop (February 9, 1568) that

begins with bread, wine, and sweet oranges.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:55:06 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrons

Citron, citrus medica, has weak lemon flavor and

a thick rind. Fruit may be as large as a foot to

as small as big lemon in size. The rind is what is

used today, although the Italians did squeeze it

to produce a beverage known as acquacedrata in the

17th and 18th centuries. Native to NE India, spread

to Persia by the 6th century BC, from there to Babylon,

to Greece with the returning armies of Alexander. Early

attempts to grow it in the Mediterranean failed, but by

the 1st century AD they were being grown in Italy and

Greece. An odd variety is grown in China where it arrived

in the 4th century AD. It's called a Buddha's Foot and the

fruit is divided into seperate lobes. There has long been a

religious connection with the fruit and the Jewish Feast of

the Tabernacles uses it. Apicius includes it in his work.

It was important in early Arabic cuisine where the rind was

used and eventually candied. It is grown today in Italy, Greece,

Corsica, Morocco, Israel, and the U.S. It is the source of the

candied citron used in fruitcake mixtures.[see Alan Davidson's The

Oxford Companion to Food.]

Johnnae llyn Lewis

From: Seton1355 at aol.com

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:21:18 EDT

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrons

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Since we are talking about citrons, let me suggest that there is a type of

citron, it looks like a lemon but is a tad larger and has a stem on both

ends. This type of citron is called an etrog and is used during the holiday

of Sukkot (Jewish Thanksgiving). Sukkot will come next month some time

(calendar not handy) and if you are living near a big city they are bound to

have a large Orthodox population and they would have citron/ etrog.

Phillipa

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:45:05 -0500

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citrus Question

Alan Davidson has two full pages devoted

to oranges in The Oxford Companion to Food.

He says that the original mutation that

produced the distinctive color of the

blood orange was probably 17th century

in Sicily. He notes that Platina mentions

both sweet and tart oranges in his writings.

Johnna Holloway Johnnae

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] oranges

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:11:12 -0500

> Information that I have places the reappearance of the orange in Europe in

> the 10th century by the Arabs. I seem to remember that it may have been

> introduced during Roman occupation by Jewish farmer/gardeners who were

> dispersed throughout the Roman empire, but the orange seems to also have

> been a victim of the fall of this empire. I do not have my documentation at

> work. What other info is out there on this?

> Judith

The orange is believed to have been brought out of India or Persia by the

Arabs following the Islamic Expansion.

While there is reference to bananas and citrons by Nearchus, Alexander's

general who invaded Northern India about 325 BCE, there is no reference to

oranges. It was Nearchus who introduced the first citrus fruit into the

Mediterranean Basin.

There is no word for orange in either classic or medieval Latin. Old

Italian uses the word "melarancio" ("mela" = "fruit" + "arancio" = "orange

tree" from the Arabic "naranj") strengthening the idea of an Arabic origin.

Other European languages originate in the Arabic form. Other than one

mosaic (which may be an artist's error), there is nothing (to my knowledge)

to suggest the Romans had oranges. Also, Pliny does not note them in his

Natural History, which would have been the case if they were in use in the

Mediterranean Basin prior to the 1st Century. For these reasons, I question

any source which places oranges in the Roman Empire.

Introduction of the orange by the Arabs could have been as early as the 8th

Century or as late as the 12th for individual locales. Since the Arabs lost

Sicily in 1091, their introduction of oranges to that island could have been

no later than the 11th Century. As a general opinion, 10th Century is as

good a date as any.

Bear

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:20:16 -0500

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citron

T: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Millham notes that with regard to the ancient sources that the fruit was

the citron. With regad to what Platina is calling for, she notes on

page 145 that he means probably the contemporary Italian fruit and that

was the lemon.

On pages 284-286 of Millham, the pork recipe (book vi, 28) calls for

"citri vel" and she says orange or lemon juice. Thethrush recipe (book

vi 29) calls for citra vel and again she says squeeze lemons or oranges.

The recipe for partridges (book vi, 33) calls for "Succus citri aut

malarantii" and she notes that in this case on page 287 that Platina

apparently left out Martio's instructions that one might use also

verjuice as an alternative to the orange and lemon that were suggested

in the recipe.

Millham's notes actually make sense when one looks at Martino and in

checking versions of Martino, (I am using Benporat here beause the

indexing makes it easy) the Rub #23[the pork]says "sugo de naranze o de

limoni" p. 173. On that same page one finds that the Rub #24 [the

thrush] calls for "sugo de pome ranze o limoni." The partridges which

was book vi, recipe 33 in Platina are ound here as Rub 28 on page 174

where the phrase reads: "e uno pocho de pome ranze o limoni o de

agresto".

The Vat # 28 version [the pork] on page 96 says "di aceto sugo daranci

ho limoni" on page 96. The Vat # 29 version [the thrush] on page 97 says

"d aceto sugo di arancio ho di limoni." The partridges which was book

vi, recipe 33 in Platina in the Vat mss are recipe 33 on page 97. What

is called for here is: "e un pocho di sucho di pome aranci ho di limoni

ho di agresto..."

So yes Martino does call or orange or lemon or even verjuice as Millham

says.

Benporat, Claudio. Cucina Italiana del Quattrocento (1996) contains

among other things the "Ricettatario di Maestro Martino Ms. Urbinate

Latino 1203" here cited as the Vat. version and also the "Ricetrio di

Maestro Martino, Riva del Garda, Archivio Storico here given as Rub.

Hope this helps.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

>> Bear replied to me with:

>>> Stefan, you can't infer that citron is actually being called for from

>>> the

>>> recipes in Platina. Hewas translating recipes from Italian into

>>> Latin and

>>> there are no Latin words for the various citrus fruits other than

>>> citron

>>> (which arrived in the Mediterranean basin in the 4th Century BCE).

>>> The

>>> recipes need to be compared to th original Italian recipes by

>>> Martino

>>> Rossi. I believe you will find the chicken recipe actually calls for

>>> (Seville) oranges in the original.

>> Yes, there is commentary in my file that covers this. But I'm not sure

>> the info given thereis definative. At least not such that I wanted to

>> keep this possible citron recipe from Anahita. That is one reason that

>> I quoted both the Platina recipe and Millham's translation. In fact

>> she

>> says lemon or verjuice. So that gives three possile interpretatons,

>> orange, lemon or citron.

>> Stefan

> I'm a little busy getting ready for my last day of work, so I can't dig out

> Milham, but as I recall, there is a footnote discussing the differences

> between Martino's recipe and Platia's translation. As Platina is

> copying

> Martino's recipes, I would hold that Martino is the definitive source.

> Bear

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:09:30 -0500

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola

To: mooncat at in-tch.com, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Sue Clemenger wrote:

> 3. Does anyone have an online or mail-order source for sour orange

> juice? It's just *not* available up here....

> Thanks in advance,

> Maire

Goya products makes it.

http://www.goya.com/english/products/product.html?prodSubCatID=11&;prodCatID=4

http://www.goya.com/english/index.html

You might contact them and see if anyone carries the products in your area.

I have come across a number of substitute recipes. One calls for one

half cup fresh juice, one quarter cup fresh grapefruit juice and one

tablespoon fresh lime juice. This was labeled as best used fresh.

Another called for one and one quarter cups fresh orange juice mixed

with one quarter cup mild cider vinegar.

I think the success of these would vary depending on what the original

recipe was doing with the "bitter" orange juice.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:21:14 -0500

From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This is the formula we use to approximate Seville orange juice. We were

lucky enough to get some bitter oranges to test, and this comes very close

to the taste. It is actually important to use the canned juice, since it is

much more sour than any kind of concentrate or refrigerated juice. And no,

it doesn't taste good by itself, but it seems to give the right flavor in

the recipes.

2 tablespoons unsweetened orange juice, preferably canned

2 tablespoons unsweetened grapefruit juice, preferably canned

2 teaspoons lemon juice, fresh or thawed frozen -- NOT ReaLemon

1/2 teaspoon orange zest

1 drop orange flower water, if possible

Cynara

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:20:26 -0800

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I can tell you from personal experience with actual Seville orange

juice, that it tastes like a mix of orange, lemon, AND grapefruit. It

is bitter - which the grapefruit adds, as well as sour - which the

lemon adds - and orangey.

I was making that famous de Nola salmon recipe and I happened to have

fresh orange, fresh lemon, and fresh grapefruit handy, in case there

wasn't enough Seville orange juice, so I did the experiment of

tasting the Seville orange juice and then blending the other juices

to approximate the flavor.

In fact, lemon juice did not add enough sour - the Seville orange

juice was pretty harsh - so lemon and orange alone do not replicate

the flavor. The blend needs grapefruit for that necessary touch of

bitter. What proportions? Well, I don't remember - it was more than a

year ago - but I'd say start with equal quantities of each of the

three.

Anahita

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:27:36 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pomecitron

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>> I am currently reading "Travels in Persia 1627-1629" by Thomas

>> Herbert. In his descriptions of fresh fruits he frequently mentions

>> the "pomecitron" - he also mentions "oranges" and "lemons" -

>> apparently the oranges were sweet since he discusses eating them as

>> is. I wonder if anyone has any idea what it is...

>> Anahita

> David Friedman wrote:

> Could it just be a citron? Is he eating it straight, or is it used in

> cooking?

There are a couple of possiblities.

One is that he is talking about the CITRON, which we candy the peel but don't really eat the fruit of today. Gerald talks about the "citron tree" in his text and then captions the illustration as "Malus medica The Pome citron." It is of a very pleasant smell and had a source juice.

The other would be that he had encountered an Assyrian Apple which

according to Gereald bore a pale yellow fruit that tasted sharp as a lemon.

There would be an outside chance that it's a Pomelo too. Modern pomelos have been recrossed with grapefruits so they don't resemble the fruits of earlier times. In fact all the citrus varieties have been so much improved, it's

hard to match up the fruits of today with what would have been growing wild then.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:34:20 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pomecitron

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I wrote:

>> I am currently reading "Travels in Persia 1627-1629" by Thomas

>> Herbert. In his descriptions of fresh fruits he frequently mentions

>> the "pomecitron" - he also mentions "oranges" and "lemons" -

>> apparently the oranges were sweet since he discusses eating them as

>> is. I wonder if anyone has any idea what it is...

>> Anahita

David Friedman wrote:

> Could it just be a citron? Is he eating it straight, or is it used in

> cooking?

Then Johnnae posted other possibilities.

Let me note that Herbert isn't doing any cooking. He's travelling in

a caravan through Persia with an Ambassador from England and an

Englishman working for the Shah of Persia (both of whom die during

the course of their travels). He mentions a number of fruits, the

kinds that are, for the most part, eaten out of hand, although he

includes lemons among them and comments on their pleasant taste. I

don't recall him saying anything very specific about pomecitrons,

just lists them.

Anahita

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:42:14 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seville orange substitutions

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I was blessed to have real Seville Orange juice available (courtesy

of Duquessa Dona Juana Isabella) when i cooked a Catalan recipe at

the Mediterranean Tour Feast a year and a half ago.

It tasted VERY much like orange juice mixed with grapefruit juice.

Additionally it was VERY sour, at least as sour as lemon juice and

possibly more so. So i'd mix the three - and less orange juice than

the other two.

At a previous German feast, in a sauce that required Seville Orange

juice and a lot of sugar, i used Seville Orange marmalade diluted and

strained.

Anahita

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:17:53 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fried Oranges

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

OK, i found this recipe on a website with recipes for a feast held in

memory of Marion Zimmer Bradley, known in the SCA as Mistress Elfrida

of Greenwalls.

http://www.nmia.com/~ariann/mzbfeast.htm

The posters (who were on this list at one time, IIRC) got it from

Fabulous Feasts, one which i do not own and which i've heard is a

questionable source. Does anyone have any idea what actually period

recipe this is based on, if any?

Anahita

<http://www.nmia.com/~ariann/mzbrecipes.htm>;

Fried Valencia Oranges

Posted by Brian L. Rygg or Laura Barbee-Rygg (rygbee at montana.com).

Found it in Fabulous Feasts- Medieval Cookery and Ceremony by

Madeleine Pelner Cosman ISBN 0-8076-0832-7. No documentation, but

very tasty.

4 large seedless eating oranges

4 Tbl brown sugar

1/8 tsp nutmeg

l/8 tsp mace

1/4 tsp cinnamon

1 C flour

1 1/2 tsp baking powder

1/4 tsp salt

3 Tbl brown sugar

1 C oil for sauteing

1 raw egg

1/2 scant C milk

Garnish

4 Tbl mustard

4 Tbl brown sugar

Carefully peel the Oranges and Separate the sections. Strew on mixed

sugar, nutmeg, mace, and cinnamon. Prepare a thick batter by uniting

the flour, baking powder, salt, and brown sugar. Blend 2 Tbl of

oil, the egg, well beaten, and the milk. Thoroughly stir this liquid

into the dry mixture. If the batter is thin, add a scant amount more

of flour. If it is too thick to evenly coat the orange sections, then

dilute with more milk. Chill batter for 1-1/2 hours. Heat the

remaining oil in a heavy skillet until hot, not smoking. Dip orange

sections in batter to coat thoroughly. Drop into hot oil and fry

until nicely browned. Serve warm with mustard and brown sugar in

Separate spice dishes.

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:29:49 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fried Oranges

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Cosman titles the recipe Valencye.

Historically, this is very suspect. Cosman is presumably working primarily

from 15th Century sources, but chasing down actual sources can be very

tricky. Cosman also is notorious for not specifying original source and her

recipes are modern adaptations rather than careful recreations (please note

the very modern baking powder in the recipe).

This is an orange fritter recipe of the sort I would expect from the 15th

Century Italian cooks, but I don't recall seeing anything similar (and I'm

researching a 15th Century Italian feast at present). Perhaps someone else

has come across it in an original source.

Another strike against the recipe is that it calls for Valencia oranges.

The first sweet oranges were introduced into Europe by the Portuguese in the

early 16th Century (a couple of <suspect> sources date the introduction in

1529).

Bear

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:48:20 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:sweet oranges

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

With regard to the questions posed by Anahita as regards

oranges and the recipe in Fabulous feasts, my notes show that

there was a sweet orange available in Europe prior to 1500.

Louis XI of France sent for "sweet oranges" during his reign

and Platina also mentions that some oranges are tart and some sweet.

No idea as to where Cosman got her original idea for the recipe.

There was a later introduction of another larger sweeter, orange by the

Portuguese in the 1520's too as Bear notes.

Johnnae

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:21 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:sweet oranges

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Platina is 1475 and Louis XI reigned 1461-1483, so that places some kind of

sweet orange in Europe during the latter half of the 15th Century. But no

idea of whether these were hybrids, imports or some varietal that had been

around for a while.

IIRC, there was an orange market in Nice in the early 1400's, which might

tie in nicely to sweet varietals.

Sweet oranges being mentioned in European literature before sweet oranges

are supposed to have arrived. Obviously there is an error in the arrival

date commonly quoted. What a delicious conundrum! And then there is the

problem of the derivation of the Valencye recipe. This could be fun.

Bear

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:46:57 -0700 (PDT)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: sweet oranges

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Perhaps this will help?

http://www.aquapulse.net/knowledge/orange

It does mention that sweet oranges were depicted on a mausoleum erected

by Constantine.

Gianotta

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:59:03 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: sweet oranges

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

AFAIK, you can't tell, although it might be possible for a botanist to make

some kind of determination if there are also accurate illustrations of leaf

and flower.

IIRC, this site has a good references, but they are all modern texts. Since

the authors of the site appear to be depending on others to do their basic

research, it may be that they are confusing fact and speculation. In

general, the work looks good, but I do want to chase some of the information

back to primary sources.

Some other questions I have are: where is this mausoleum, when was it built,

what is its history, and how can we be certain that the drawing of the

orange is comtemporary to the construction?

Bear

> But how on earth would we know that they were sweet oranges, instead of

> bitter ones?

> Cynara

>> http://www.aquapulse.net/knowledge/orange

>> It does mention that sweet oranges were depicted on a mausoleum

>> erected by Constantine.

>> Gianotta

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:07:58 -0400

From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] To the King's Taste (was Pennsic Potluck,

revisited)

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Aug 28, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> You don't see much citrus in English cooking until the late

> 16th century.

This statement kind of caught me off guard, so I had to do some

checking.

While oranges don't show up in English cooking texts until the late

16th century, they do show up in French texts in the late 14th century

(see below). I'd be surprised if it took 200 years for oranges to make

their way across the English channel. More likely, the oranges were

known, but didn't show up in kitchens often enough to override the

natural tendency towards plagiarism of early English cookery book

authors.

Le Menagier de Paris (Hinson, trans.) ca. 1392

9 recipes, see link -

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?term=oranges&;file=lmdp

(While this doesn't seem like a lot, it should be noted that there are

only 15 recipes in this book that reference cabbage)

-=-

Du Fait de Cuisine (Elizabeth Cook, trans.) ca. 1420

3 recipes

"10. For a lofty entremet, that is a castle, [...] One should take note

of the sauces of the said pike with which it should be eaten, that is:

the fried with oranges, the boiled with a good green sauce which should

be made sour with a little vinegar, and the roast of the said pike

should be eaten with green verjuice made of sorrel. [....]"

"For marine fish: for the turbot should be given green sauce, salmon

with cameline, ray with garlic cameline which is made with almonds and

with its liver; sea-crayfish with vinegar, sturgeons with parsley,

onions, and vinegar, fried sardines with mustard, fried sole with

sorrel verjuice and oranges, eels roasted on the grill with verjuice,

anchovies with parsley, onions, and vinegar and powder on top."

"In the year of grace 1400 Aymé, first duke of Savoy, [...] and the

pikes should be eaten with the boiled with green sauce, the fried and

the roasted with green verjuice or with oranges."

-=-

The Vivendier (Scully, trans) ca. 1450

one recipe

"To cook a Fish in Three Ways and Styles, that is, boiled, roasted and

fried. [...] Serve it as an entrements, the boiled part with Green

Sauce, the roasted with orange juice and the fried with Cameline."

- Doc

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)

http://www.medievalcookery.com/

Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:34:48 -0500

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] bottled sour orange juice

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

FYI, we discussed this several times at different venues at Pennsic.

Yes, my local Price Rite carries bottles of bitter orange juice (no

other additives except preservatives). The brand is Badia, the label is

'NARANJA AGRIA' and it's 20 oz. (1.99 where I am). Apparently Badia also

markets it in 1 gallon containers... :)

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:13:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noty or Notye

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Not a linguistic flame (not a flame, actually), but a culinary comment.

> I would be *very* surprised to see lemon juice in a recipe written in

> Middle English. Even in the Mediterranean corpus, there's very little

> use of lemon until late period.

There is a mosaic in Pompeii which depicts a lemon.

There are lemon-shaped earrings found in the Indus Valley dating back to 2500 BC

Crusaders returning to Europe from Palestine were said to have carried

lemons back with them.

"The first clear literary evidence of the lemon tree in any language dates from the early tenth-century Arabic work by Qustus al-Rumi in his book on farming. At

the end of the twelfth century, Ibn Jami’, the personal physician to the great Muslim leader Saladin, wrote a treatise on the lemon, after which it is mentioned with greater frequency in the Mediterranean"

The above citation is from an online article written by Cliford A Wright.

http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/lemonade.html

I have also heard that the Greeks may well have been cultivating lemons

within our early period of interest.

William de Grandfort

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:09:27 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noty or Notye

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Chris Stanifer:

> I have also heard that the Greeks may well have been cutivating

> lemons within our early period of interest.

Yes, and I believe they also appear in several of the Tacuinum

Sanitatis manuscripts. The question is, what would the English be

doing with them, and if anything, how did they get them?

Adamantius--

Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 22:15:20 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Leons not Noty or Notye

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Having made citrus fruits sort of a study of mine (the book is over

200 plus pages now and will probably be over 300 in its next version)

I can post some of my findings---

"Other citrus fruits that might be candied include lemons or Citrus

limon of both the thick and thin skinned varieties. They reached China

by 1900 BC The Chinese called them limung and medieval and Renaissance

recipes echo that name when they speak about limons and limao.

Confusingly many times when a later recipe calls for citron, the cook

may have meant lemons. OED includes this quotation: 1555 EdenDecades W.

Ind. ii. ix. (Arb.) 131 “The kynde of citrons which are commonly cauled

limones.” Page 45.

"Thomas Dawson in The Good Huswife’s Jewell includes a list of “The

Names Of All things necessary for a banquet.” Among the items Dawson

included were “Orenges, Lemons, and Sweete Orenges”. ...Gervase Markham

in The English Housewife writes about the ‘preserves, conserves, candies

and pastes consisted the whole art of banqueting dishes.’ In addition to

the Citrus fruits that were so treated in preserves ad conserves,

Markham mentioned that you might serve “oranges and lemons sliced, and

then wafers.” The professional cook Robert May in The Accomplisht Cook

seems to freely decorate many of his made dishes with thinly sliced

oranges and lemons. " Page 65

You start seeing lemon recipes in English cookbooks in numbers

in the later 16th century. Using Doc's handy search engine, you

get lots of hits for A NEVV BOOKE of Cookerie which is the John Murrell

edition from the 17th century.

http://www.medievalcookery.om/search.shtm

Johnnae llyn Lewis, authoress

Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:38:23 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lemons was Noty or Notye

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The Indus site with the lemon shaped earring is Mohenjo-Daro.

Aristophanes, Virgil, Theophrastus, Pliny and Antiphanes have presumably

written about lemons (or possibly citrons; one needs to remember that

Linnaeus considered lemons to be a variety of citron and their establishment

as a separate species is fairly recent) which pushes western knowledge of

the fruit back to the 3rd or 4th Century BCE. Whether or not these writers

had direct contact with the fruit is another question, but the probability

that they encountered the fruit personally is greater after Alexander's

conquests in northern India around 325 BCE.

I've found some references to lemons being grown in Libya and imported into

Rome during Trajan's reign, but I have yet to find the source for that

statement.

Just for fun, here's a piece discussing the origin and spread of citrus

fruits with a bit more on the various arguments for and against lemons:

http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/Vol1/Chapter1.htm

Bear

Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:30:51 -0800 (PST)

From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Here are a few Middle English quotes which contain the poor, misunderstood lemon...

Early English versions of the Gesta Romanorum / edited by Sidney J.H. Herrtage

[ XL. ]SELESTINUS A WYSE EMPEROURE. (THE "BOND" STORY IN THE "MERCHANT

O VENICE.")Harl. MS. 7333.

[Story.]

yenst him, she kytte of al the longe her of hir hede, and cladde hir in

precious clothing like to

a man; and yede to the palys þere as hir lemon was to be demyd, and

saluyd þe Iustice; and al they

trowid þat she ha be a knite. And þe Iuge Enquerid

Treatises of fistula in ano : haemorrhoids, and clysters / by John

Arderne

NOTES.

te and unripe, so they want colour. The stone laid whole to the

forehead stays the bleeding at the

nose. You may dissolve it in juic of Lemons or Spirit of Vinegar and

so use it; drunk in wine it

helps against the stinging of scorpions. You may a

John Arderne was an English surgeon who lived during the 1300's in England, and his prescription of lemons proves, at the very least, hat they were known in medicinal circles in England, even if they do not appear in Middle English cookery books.

William de Grandfort

Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:51:58 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject:Re: [Sca-cooks] Noty or Notye

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> --- lilinah at earthlink.net wrte:

>> There is a big difference between showing that

>> lemons were used in England in the period in

>> which Middle English was spoken and written and

>> showing that lemons existed in other times and places...

> True enough. I'm still trying o track down ship manifests and monastic

> records of the time, just

> to see if I can find a reference to the lemon or citron in Europe

> (England). Another source which

> I haven't hit on yet is information on estate orchards, or even Royal

> orchards of the time. This

> may seem like a case of 'backwards documentation', but it is more a

> curious examination to see if

> lemons were used with any regularity during the time in question. The

> lack of documentation in

> recipes of the time is not an indication that the lemon was not widely

> used. Merely that it was

> not used in the written recipes we have available.

> William de Grandfort

Looking in the OED, the earliest earliest English reference to a lemon is

from 1400 while the citron show up in 1530. This isn't too surprising when

one considers that "lemon" derives from Iberian origins (and England's

Spanish ties) while citron was the more common form in other parts of

Europe. The common terms were often used interchangably because lemons and

citron were considered to be the same species.

I wouldn't worry about monastic records or orchard logs. Lemon trees won't

grow natively much farther north than Central Italy. You need to look at

green houses and very sophisticated gardens if you want to find lemon trees

in England. The ship manifests are a good idea and don't forget customs

records, one of the earliest references to lemons show up in customs records

from around 1420-21.

That lemon is not widely documented in English recipes before the 16th

Century, suggests that the lemon may not have been relatively common until

then. It is an indication that lemon was not widely used, it is not

absolute proof of the fact. That general documentation in England begins in

1400, it is highly likely that lemons were not in use in England much before

beginning of the 15th Century, which logically suggests lemons came into use

during a two hundred year period between 1400 and 1600. Lemons can not be

grown in England other than n green houses and green houses of the time

were too costly to support commercial cultivation, which means the fruit was

imported and was probably expensive, limiting use to the wealthier segments

of society. English sea trade becomes a major factor n the 16th Century,

but the great thrust of overseas trade begins in 1555 with the Muscovy

Company. Considering the historical framework, it is very likely lemons

would only become inexpensive enough for general use during the last half of

the 16th Century. Of course, this is all speculation.

To test this, I would look for market records of English fruit markets.

Curiously, one of the people involved with the Tudor banana is preparing a

study of London fruit markets. I might check with her about the references

she is using. I would also scour Hakluyt's Principle Navigations,

Explorations and Discoveries of the English Nation for references to lemons.

I will agree that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, but the quantity

and quality of available references is suggestive about probability.

Bear

Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:15:54 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: "Cookswithin the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Here are a few Middle English quotes which contain the poor,

> misnderstood lemon...

> Early English versions of the Gesta Romanorum / edited by Sidney J.H.

> Herrtage

> [ XL. ]SELESTINUS A WYSE EMPEROURE. (THE "BOND" STORY IN THE "MERCHANT OF

> VENICE.")Harl. MS. 7333.

> [Story.]

> yenst him, she kytte of a the longe her of hir hede, and cladde hir in

> precious clothing like to

> a man; and yede to the palys þere as hir lemon was to be demyd, and saluyd

> þe Iustice; and al they

> trowid þat she had be a knite. And þe Iuge Enquerid

I think the lemon in this writing is actually leman, a(n illicit) lover.

> Treatises of fistula in ano : haemorrhoids, and clysters / by John

> Arderne

> NOTES.

> te and unripe, so they want colour. The stone laid whole to the forehead

> stays the bleeding at the

> nose. You may dissolve it in juice of Lemons or Spirit of Vinegar and so

> use it; drunk in wine it

> helps against the stinging of scorpions. You may a

> John Arderne was an English surgeon who lived during the 1300's in

> England, and his prescription

> of lemons proves, at the very least, that they were known in medicinal

> circles in England, even if

> they do not appear in Middle English cookery books.

> William de Grandfort

Now this is more like it, however, the claims being made triggered a vague

memory of some of the claims made about vinegar and citrons in Pliny. I

don't think this is cribbed from Pliny, but I think you better check out

Dioscorides De Materia Medica. I have a feeling the author is copying from

some of the great texts of the field and doesn't have first hand knowledge

of the subject.

Bear

Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 00:52:42 -0500

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Chris Stanifer wrote:

> Here are a few Middle English quotes which contain the poor,

> misunderstood lemon...

> Early English versions of the Gesa Romanorum / edited by Sidney J.H.

> Herrtage

[snip]

> yenst him, she kytte of al the longe her of hir hede, and cladde hir

> in precious clothing like to a man; and yede to the palys þere as hir

> lemon was to be demyd, and saluyd þe Iustic; and al they trowid þat

> she had be a knite. And þe Iuge Enquerid

This is indeed a misunderstood lemon. The word here is an alternate

spelling of "leman", a Middle English term for a lover.

> Treatises of fistula in ano : haemorrhoids, and clystrs / by John

> Arderne

> NOTES.

> te and unripe, so they want colour. The stone laid whole to the

> forehead stays the bleeding at the nose. You may dissolve it in juice

> of Lemons or Spirit of Vinegar and so use it; drunk in wine it helps

> against the stinging of scorpions. You may a

> John Arderne was an English surgeon who lived during the 1300's in

> England, and his prescription of lemons proves, at the very least,

> that they were known in medicinal circles in England, even if the do

> not appear in Middle English cookery books.

The quote above is not from the text of "fistula in ano", but from the

footnotes of the 1910 EETS edition. In the text, Arderne mentions the

use of sapphire, red coral and ruby. The footnote explains the

historical beliefs about these stones. The bit about sapphires is in

quotes. I suspect it's from Salmon's 1678 "The New London Dispensory",

which is much cited in other footnotes. In any case, the English in the

footnote quote is much more modern than the Middle English of the main

text:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?

type=HTML&rgn=DIV2&byte=15278198

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?

type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=15381097#n66.3

No one is questioning that lemons were known in medicinal circles in

medieval England (Whether they were used in English medicine is another

question.).

> William de Grandfort

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:27:41 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Lemons and neither Noty nor Notye

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

As for those fabled ship's records C. Anne Wilson notes

that in 1289 Queen Eleanor (who was a princess from Castile)

received 15 lemons and 7 oranges. Upon her deathbed they managed

to procure her an additional 39 lemons for an outstandingly high price.

That's the only mention of lemons that I have found. One has to remember

that they didn't need lemons at that time for sour juice. For that they used

the oranges of the period which were the sour or bitter oranges.

Those we have shipping records for. Both Hammond and Wilson note those.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 10:53:00 -0500

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: Cookswithin the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Terry Decker wrote:

> The Viander (1250-1395, depending on the particular manuscripts) does

> not mention lemons. Neither does Menagier (1393) or Du fait de

> cuisine (1420). The Liber cure cocurum (1st half of the 14th Century)

> doesn't mention them and I don't remember the Two Fifteenth Century

> Cookbooks (1430 and 1450) having lemons in any recipe.

[snip

They don't. The "Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books" are part of the

Middle English database that William searched. No mention of lemons.

> The Anonimo Veneziana (sic?) (14th Century) does mention them as do

> Martino (15th) and De Nola (16th).

The "Libre de Sent Sovi" (14th c. Catalan) does also.

> Keukenboek (16th century Dutch) makes no mention of lemons. In

> England, A.W. A Book of Cookrye (1591) has recipes as does A Closet

> for Ladies and Gentlewomen (1608, which is IIRC a screw citation fr

> Plat).

> Curiously, Markham's The English Housewife makes no mention of lemons

> that I can find.

> What these cookbooks suggest is that lemons were not used much in

> Northern Europe before the 16th Century and that they were introduced

> into Meiterranean cooking in the 14th Century and popularized in the

> 15th and 16th Centuries. The cooks who created these recipes would

> certainly have used lemons if they were available. The fact that they

> are not mentioned leads one to believe that lemons were not available.

[snip]

> Bear.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:46:32 -0800 (PST)

From: Katja Olova <katjaorlova at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Lemons

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

> The Viander (1250-1395, depending on the particular> manuscripts) does not

> mention lemons.

I'm doing a Spanish feast next weekend (with extreme

gratitude to Vincent and Brighid for their

translations).

Having just looked at a lot of Spanish recipes, I'd

like to note that lemons are mentioned in both the

Libre de Sent Sovi (Di limonia di polli) and Libro de

Cozina (Limonada). The former is 14th Century, I

think, and the latter is 1529.

I have no idea how common or popular they were in

Spain at this time, but since you were listing

cookbooks that include or don't include the fruit, I

thought folks would like to know.

regards, Katja

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:22:35 -0500

From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Moving later and out of the middle english period the 1682 edition of

Rabisha's _The Whole Body Of Cookery Dissected_ does have

lemon recipes in it.

"To pickle Lemmon and Orange Pill"

"To Preserve Oranges and Lemons" pg 312

"To make syrup of lemons" pg 325

"To Make Paster of Oranges and Lemons" pg 322

Those are just the recipes that have lemon in the title.

But from looking at the other recipes they are using verjuis, vinegar and citrons in the daily cooking, as well as oranges and pears. I was looking for a sample recipe using a lemon as an ingredient outside of candying and preserves, but I do not see any at first glance. I'm not saying there are none, but I

haven't totally read through this book yet.

But from what I am seeing is, this is the time that lemons are starting to be

used in English cuisine, and only just starting to be.

I brought this book up because this text in of itself is a post Interregnum work

that was supposed to exemplify how the nobles ate in the times before Cromwell

had his fun with English society. If lemons had been a large part of the society's cuisine, Rabisha would have dug that up along with the other recipes

in this book as he strove to bring back those days. I don't think Cromwell would have driven lemons out of England with the royalty.

Cadoc

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:26:43 -0700

From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Lemons:

1604 is later than the 1100 to 1500 first mentioned, but provides

a date when lemons were certainly in use in cooking in Belgium

(which is as far north as southern England):

"Ouverture de Cuisine", published in what is today Belgium in 1604,

and containing recipes current during the second half of the 1500s,

uses "citron" and "limon". Translating the latter poses some

problems, and my reading is not definitive. The word "limon"

usually occurs as "limon sale" [w. acute accent]. "Sale" means

salted (or in some contexts sour). Rey et al define "limon" as

a sour lemon with a thin skin (with earliest citation in French

from about 1314).

In Ouverture 9 recipes call for fresh lemon, 3 recipes call for

fresh sour lemon, and 17 recipes call for salted sour lemon.

It might be relevant that in 1604 Belgium was occupied by the

Spanish, who as we have seen used lemons from an early date

I haven't looked extremely hard, but that's the earliest use

from northern Europe that I've found in any of my sources.

Scurvy was also mentioned:

The English East India Company is mentioned as gathering oranges

and lemons from Madagascar in 1601 which they turned into juice

specifically for use against scurvy.

Thorvald

Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:02:38 -0800

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This is NOT proof of the use of lemons (or indeed any citrus fruit) _IN

CUISINE_ in England, but is of interest in a literary sense.

The word 'citryn' appears in the Canterbury Tales, as the description of a

yellow color.

It is in the description of Arcite, in the Knight's Tale. Lines

2165-2167 say:

"His crispe heer lyk ringes was yronne,

And that was yelow, and glytered as the sonne.

His nose was heigh, his eyen bright citryn,"

All of my glosses have 'citryn' as 'lemon colored', but there is also the

possibility that a green-yellow or yellow-green is indicated- after all-

humans do not generally have yellow eyes, but some do have green eyes.

The word 'lemon' in any spelling does not appear in Chaucer's works.

'Lainie

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:53:37 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Phlip:

> Be interested here, to see which came first, the color or the fruit? Was the

> fruit named for the color, or vice versa? Same with oranges- can anagram

> orange, but can't rhyme it, unless I'm being silly in a limerick ;-) But,

> where do the words derive from? Any of you folks with access to an OED have

> a clue?

Well, what does naranj (or whatever it is in the Arabic whence it's

supposed to come) mean? Does it refer to the color?

On a related note, my lady wife reminds me that Chaucer may be

referring to the color of the semi-precious stone, citrine, which

was, she says, a favorite of the Romans, and well-known in period

Europe.

Adamantius, who wears Roman jewelry when Ceandra makes the stuff, but

otherwise is no authority

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:47:25 -0600

From: "margaret" <m.p.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Be interested here, to see which came first, the color or the fruit? Was the

> fruit named for the color, or vice versa? Same with oranges- can anagram

> orange, but can't rhyme it, unless I'm being silly in a limerick ;-) But,

> where do the words derive from? Any of you folks with access to an OED have

> a clue?

> Saint Phlip,

> CoD

The fruit. Citrine derives from the Latin "citrus" which is the citron

tree. Orange derives from the Persian "narang" (possibly derived from

Sanskrit), a reference to the orange tree.

Bear

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:36:25 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Scurvy was also mentioned:

> The English East India Company is mentioned as gathering oranges

> and lemons from Madagascar in 1601 which they turned into juice

> specifically for use against scurvy.

> Thorvald

This is coincident with the date and location for James Lancaster (of the

East India Company) dosing his crew with citrus juice. My information says

that was done just for his crew. This raises the question of whether the

cure was generalized for the whole of the East India Company or whether your

source generalized and isolated incident.

Bear

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:31:04 -0700

From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 20:36 -0600 2005-02-07, Terry Decker wrote:

> This is coincident with the date and location for James Lancaster

> (of the East India Company) dosing his crew with citrus juice. My

> information says that was done just for his crew. This raises the

> question of whether the cure was generalized for the whole of the

> East India Company or whether your source generalized and isolated

> incident.

> Bear

Same voyage. Captain Lancaster, though in overall command of the

four ships, used the juices for his own crew only, which suggests

that it was not Company policy at the time of his voyage. It is

suggested that he was experimenting (in the event, at the expense

of the crews of the other three ships).

Thorvald

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:27:44 -0500

From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons as antiscorbutics

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

John Smith in his 1626 book on ships and sailing, A Sea Grammar, has the

following line in his instructions regarding the proper victualling of

a ship for a voyage to sea:

"A Commander at Sea should doe well to thinke the contrary, and provide

for himselfe and company in like manner; also seriously to consider

what will bee his charge to furnish himselfe at Sea with bedding,

linnen, armes, and apparrell, how to keepe his table aboord, and hi

expences on shore, and provide his petty Tally, which is a competent

proportion according to your number of these particulars following.

Fine wheat flower close and well packed, Rice, Currands, Sugar,

Prunes, Cynamon, Ginger, Pepper, Cloves, greene inger, Oyle, Butter,

Holland cheese, or old Cheese, Wine vineger, Canarie sacke, Aqua vitæ,

the best Wines, the best waters, the juyce of Limons for the scurvy,

white Bisket, Oatmeale, gammons of Bacon, dried Neats tongues, Beefe

packed up in vineger,Legs of Mutton minced and stewed, and close

packed up, with tried sewet or butter in earthen pots. "

In 1610 the Governor of Jamestown Lord la Ware took scurvy while

travelling to Jamestown, and he was forced for his health to repair to

"the western isles" by which I think he means the Bahamas:

"In these extremities I resolved to consult with my friends, who

finding nature spent in me, and my body almost consumed, my paines

likewise daily increasing, gave me advice to preferre a hopefull

recoverie, bfore an assured ruine, which must necessarily have ensued,

had I lived but twentie daies longer in Virginia, wanting at that

instant both food and Physicke, fit to remedie such extraordinary

diseases; wherefore I shipped my selfe with Doctor Bohun and aptaine

Argall, for Mevis in the West Indies, but being crossed with Southerly

winds, I was forced to shape my course for the Westerne Iles, where I

found helpe for my health, and my sicknesse asswaged, by the meanes of

fresh dyet, especially Oranges nd Limons, and undoubted remedie for

that disease: then I intended to have returned backe againe to

Virginia, but I was advised not to hazard my selfe, before I had

perfectly recovered my strength: so I came for England; in which

accident, I doubt notbut men of judgement w!

ill imagine, there would more prejudice have happened by my death

there, than I hope can doe by my returne."

So as far as lemons, and oranges, go, here appears to have been a

plantations in the American tropics long established, by this time and

at least a rudmentary awareness of the efficacy of citrus as an

antiscorbutic.

Capt Elias

-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:42:07 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

According to Mark Anderson, it was an accidental controlled experiment.

http://www.riparia.org/scurvy_hx.htm

I did a little further checking and found that this was the first voyage of

the East India company fleet. Lancaster's logs from the voyage have

disappeared. Further information of the voyage can be found in Samuel

Purchas' Hakluytus post-hummus, or Purchas his Pilgrims, 1625 and Sir

Clements Markham's

The Voyages of Sir James Lancaster, Hakluyt Society, 1877. The earlier

voyage of James Lancaster appears in Hakluyt's Voyages, but is not included

in the abridged edition I have.

Anderson's article is interesting because it covers some of the

considerations of scurvy and the citrus treatment prior to Lind.

Bear

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:04:30 -0800 (PST)

From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Scurvy in period (slightly OT)

To: gedney1 at iconn.net, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Jeff Gedney <gedney1 at iconn.net> wrote:

> for what it's worth, the complete etext of Richard Hakluyt's "The

> PRINCIPAL NAVIGATIONS VOYAGES

> TRAFFIQUES & DISCOVERIES of the ENGLISH NATION Made by Sea or Overland

> to the Remote & Farthest

> Distant Quarters of the Earth at any time within the compasse of these

> 1600 Yeares"

Lemons are mentioned twice in this book, for what it's worth (not much,

since they aren't mentioned in connection with England). :)

WdG

Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 07:22:01 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Cat ." <tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 28, Issue 28

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Greetings Stefan,

Yes, the recipe is in Rumpolt (Ein New Kochbuch)

http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_salad1.htm

its #27. 24, 25 and 37 are also pretty and

refreshing.

Enjoy!

In Service

Gwen Cat

>>> Urtatim (formerly Anahita)

>> I hope someone does the thin sliced lemons with sugar!

>> Yum! And refreshing.

> Sounds like it could be very nice tasting, but is there any evidence

> for this being a period dish?

> I know we've talked about preserved lemons before, but I don't

> remember sugared lemons.

> Stefan

> --------

> THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad

> Kingdom of Ansteorra

> Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas

Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:43:25 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: [Sca-cooks Lemons with sugar

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also in Dawson which is on the web

The Good Housewife's Jewell by Thomas Dawson 1596 <../00.htm>

To make a Sallet of Lemmons

Cut out slices of the peele of the Lemmons long waies, a quarter of an

inche one peece from an other, and then slice the Lemmon very thinne and

lay him in a dish crosse, and the peeles about the Lemmons, and scrape a

good deale of suger upon them, and so serve them.

http://www.harvestfields.ca/CookBooks/003/07/01/107.htm

Johnnae

Cat . wrote: Greetings Stefan,

> Yes, the recipe is in Rumpolt (Ein New Kochbuch)

> http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_salad1.htm

> its #27. 24, 25 and 37 are also pretty and

> refreshing.

>> I know we've talked about preserved lemons before, but I don't

>> remember sugared lemons. Stefan

Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:18:03 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lemon Relish, was Silver Spoon - Mists Fall

Coronet

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Stefan wrote:

> Gunthar suggested:

>> I hope someone does the thin sliced lemons with sugar!

>> Yum! And refreshing.

> Sounds like it could be very nice tasting, but is there any evidence

> for this being a period dish?

I think Gunthar is thinking of something else, but i served a German

recipe for chopped lemons tossed with sugar and pomegranate seeds at

the mostly German Boar Hunt, my second feast, 2001. Recipe on my website:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/2001_Feasts/2001-Boar_Hunt/

2001-0menu.html

Lemon and pomegranate relish

Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, 1581

37. Lemon chopped with sugar and sprinkled with pomegranate seeds.

My Recipe:

makes 10 small bowls

10 medium lemons

5 pomegranates

plenty of granulated sugar

1. Peel pomegranates, separating seeds into a large bowl, removing

all pith. Pomegranates contain tannin and will stain clothes and

hands. Be sure to wear an apron - and latex/rubber gloves if you wish.

2. Sprinkle pomegranate seeds with sugar.

3. Chop lemons up completely and finely, removing only the seeds.

4. Mix with pomegranate seeds.

5. Sprinkle with lots sugar. Let stand. Add more sugar as necessary.

6. Serve in small dishes.

There wasn't a scrap left and people were begging for more.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 02:31:00 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] the lemon controversy!

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

While looking for stuff on grene grapes, I found the cache of messages

about the lemon question that came up months ago! So here is the word on

lemons from a bunch of professors who were avoiding grading

papers... :-)

______

Here's the quotation display for the entry 'limon.' I hope the

formatting works out.

(1420-21) in Gras Eng.Cust.Syst. 514: i cista iiic

lymonz. ?a1425(c1400) Mandev.(1) (Tit C.16) 131/35: For the

vermyn þat is withjnne, þei anoynte here armes & here thyes &

legges with an oynement made of a þing þat is clept Lymons, þat is,

a manere of fruyt lych smale pesen [F lymons, cest vn manere de

fruit come pesches petites]. ?a1425 Mandev.(2) (Eg 1982)

84/15: Ane oynement made of þe iuys of a fruyte þat þai call

lymons. ?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12) 27a/a: Pomegranates,

orenges, lymonez [L limones], & al acetous ar for hym. ?c1425

*Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25) 156a/b: Many men putte þerto in

somer þe Iuse of lymons or of orenges. ?1435(1432) Lydg. Hen.VI

Entry (Jul B.2) 353: Ther were eke treen with leves ffressh off

hewe..ffulle off ffruytes lade..Orenges, almondis, and the

pome-gernade, Lymons, dates, theire colours ffressh and glade.

the abbreviated titles are, in order of appearance:

-N. S. B. Gras, The Early English Customs System, HES 18 (1918).

-Mandeville's Travels, ed. P. Hamelius, EETS 153 (1919; reprint

1987). 1-211.

-The Buke of John Maundeuill, ed. G. F. Warner, RC 119 (1889). upper

pp.1-156.

-Translation of Guy de Chauliac's Grande Chirurgie: Microfilm print

of New York Academy of Medicine MS 12; in poss. of MED.

-The Cyrurgie of Guy de Chauliac, ed. M. S. Ogden, EETS 265 (1971).

-Lydgate on HenVI's entry into London. The Minor Poems of John

Lydgate, ed. H. N. MacCracken, vol. 2, EETS 192 (1934; reprint

1961). 630-48

_______

Browsing the MED entries that mention "orange," "lemon," or "citrus" in

the definition, I find at least a few that seem to

suggest the actual presence (as opposed to theoretical knowledge) of

citrus fruit in England. The bulk of the quotations seem to point to

medicinal, rather than culinary, use. But here are four samples (the

Paston quote is curious, I think):

(1420-21) in Gras Eng.Cust.Syst. 514: i cista iiic lymonz.

(1470) Paston 1.554: Dame Elyzabet Calthorp is a fayir lady and

longyth for orangys, thow she be not wyth chyld

a1525(?1457) Cov.Leet Bk. 300: The Meyre..send vnto her..a grete

panyer full of Pescodes and another panyer full of pipyns

and Orynges.

?c1425 *Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25) 118a/b: With þe Iuse of

citrines [F citron; L citri].

See limon (n.(1)), citrine (n.), and orange (n.), among others.

Probably equal or better results might be had from searching for

the Latin and French terms, perhaps especially in commercial

contexts, as suggested by the quot. from Gras.

_______

I assume, Paul, that the Paston quote refers to the desire for

unusual/out

of season foods or food combinations (e.g., pickles and ice cream)

experienced in pregnancy (as in Mary's desire for cherries in

December in

the Cherry Tree Carol).

_______

Here's the earliest OED entry (for whatever that may be worth):

> c1400 MANDEVILLE (Roxb.) xxi. 98 {Th}ai enoynt {th}am..with {th}e

> ius of

{th}e fruyt {th}at es called lymons.

and the MED:

limon (n.(1))

[OF]

The fruit of the lemon tree (Citrus limon).

(1420-21) in Gras Eng.Cust.Syst. 514: i cista iiic lymonz.

?a1425(c1400) Mandev.(1) (Tit C.16) 131/35: For the vermyn þat is

withjnne, þei anoynte here armes & here thyes & legges with an oynement

made of a þing þat is clept Lymons, þat is, a manere of fruyt lych

smale

pesen [F lymons, cest vn manere de fruit come pesches petites]. ?a1425

Mandev.(2) (Eg 1982) 84/15: Ane oynement made of þe iuys of a fruyte

þat þai call lymons. ?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12) 27a/a:

Pomegranates, orenges, lymonez [L limones], & al acetous ar for hym.

?c1425 *Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25) 156a/b: Many men putte þerto in

somer þe Iuse of lymons or of orenges. ?1435(1432) Lydg. Hen.VI Entry

(Jul B.2) 353: Ther were eke treen with leves ffressh off

hewe..ffulle off ffruytes lade..Orenges, almondis, and the pome-gernade,

Lymons, dates, theire colours ffressh and glade.

_______

I thought the info was pretty interesting, though it doesn't necessarily

clear up the question of availability and practicality of use in England.

They do seem to be together with warm-climate things like dates and

pomagranates- which we know were used in England. Anyone else have

observations?

'Lainie

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:14:59 -0400

From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemon Relish, was Silver Spoon - Mists Fall

Coronet

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Stefan wrote:

>> Gunthar suggested:

>>> I hope someone does the thin sliced lemons with sugar!

>>> Yum!

>>> And refreshing.

I would be willing to wager that there is a high probablilty that

Gunthar is referring to the following but Of course, I could be wrong:

Lemmon sallet

From The Good Huswifes Jewell by Thomas Dawson.

Transcribed by Katherine Rowberd.

To make a Sallet of Lemmons - Huswife's Jewel Cut out slices of the

peele of the Lemmons long waies, a quarter of an inche one peece from

an other, and then slice the Lemmon very thinne and lay him in a dish

crosse, and the peeles about the Lemmons, and scrape a good deale of

suger upon them, and so serve them.

I served this salad alongside a fish dish. Was it my fault if some of

it ended up on the salmon? ;)

Glad Tidings,

Serena da Riva

Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:03:47 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Dawson online was Lemon Relish,

To: voxeight at gmail.com, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I posted this recipe back on the 9th under the subject

Lemons with Sugar. This version of Dawson is also up at--

http://www.harvestfields.ca/CookBooks/003/07/01/107.htm

People may want to bookmark it...

Johnnae

Barbara Benson wrote:

>> From The Good Huswifes Jewell by Thomas Dawson.Transcribed by

>> Katherine Rowberd.

> snipped

> Glad Tidings,

> Serena da Riva

Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:26:54 -0800

From: Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at cox.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Limes

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 03:40 AM 12/30/2005,Volker Bach said something like:

> A friend has been kind enough to give me two crates full of limes left over

> from the Mother of All Caipirinha Parties. I've subsequently spent

> considerable time making and freezing juice and making lime cordial, but I'm

> left to wonder what else they are good for. Any pointers appreciated - I have

> time on my hands over new year, and two thirds of one crate are

> still left over.

> Giano

When I received an embarrassing richness of fresh lemons I discovered that I

could simply chuck them whole into the freezer, unpeeled, unbagged.

When you go to use them, the cell walls inside the fruit are already mostly

burst, so they juice easily, and if you work on the peel while its still

mostly frozen, it zests right off really well too.

(The same technique also works for fresh tomatoes, I did the food for one

handfasting, and the tomatoes I froze afterwards lasted longer than the

relationship).

Maggie

Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:14:28 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blood oranges, etc.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The problem with all citrus fruit is trying to determine

exactly what is being talked about. From my book

on the topic and the research that went into it---

Sweet oranges, according to a number of sources,

were around in the 15th century. Then about 1520

the Portuguese brought back another even sweeter orange.

Then in the mid-18th century we have the British coming along with

yet another sweet orange.

There's a romatic story that links blood ornages with the Crusades but

at best they seem to be a 17th century mutation from probably Sicily.

One thing is for certain is that there were a number of varieties that were being

grown in the past that we never see in our supermarkets.

In the late 17th-early 18th centuries the Medici commissioned a series

of paintings of what was being grown on their estates. The artist was Bartolomeo

Bimbi. Taking a look at his paintings of fruits and vegetables is rather

amazing.

[And I am not talking about the monstrous aspects either

http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/2002/slideshow/slide-163-15.shtm ]

See http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/2002/slideshow/slide-163-14.htm

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/history/lecture39/32.html

or browse the History of Horticulture course for more details. See

lecture 39.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/history/default.html

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:36:59 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citrus was Blood oranges, etc.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The problem is also typing orange and not ornages.

Also see Saveur March 2006 for an article titled

Citrus Surprises on page 28.

http://www.ripetoyou.com/Main.aspx --

they offer exotic stuff like citrons during certain seasons.

Johnnae

Johnna Holloway wrote:

> The problem with all citrus fruit is trying to determine

> exactly what is being talked about.

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:50:18 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] salad of fennel and seville oranges?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

According to the Penguin Companion to Food, p. 667, "During the first centuries of the Christian era the orange began to spread beyond China, as the citron had done earlier. It reached Japan well before the earliest surviving Japanese literature was written (the 8th Century), but it has always be less important there than fruits of the mandarin type. It also reached India in early times; a medical treatise of about A.D. 100, the Charaka Samhita, mentions it for the first time by what was to become its modern name, 'naranga'. This word is said to be derived from an older Sanskrit term 'narunga'(fruit like elephants). 'Naranga' became 'naranj' in Persian and Arabic, 'narantsion' in late Classical Greek, and 'aurantium' (influenced by 'aurum'(gold)) in Late Latin, from which it is only a short step to the Italian 'arancia' and French and English 'orange'.

"However, the various questions which attend the etymology and the westward movement of the orange are complicated by the fact that it was the sour orange which first travelled westwards, with the sweet orange only following about 500 years later. The sour orange was apparently being grown in Sicily at the beginning of the 11th century and around Seville in Spain at the end of the 12th century, no doubt because the Arabs had introduced the fruit in these places. The sweet orange turns up in the Mediterranean area in the latter part of the 15th century. However, it is not always easy to know, from the common names then in use, which sort of orange was meant.

"The earliest surviving description of the bitter orange in Europe was by the 13thcentury writer Albertus Magnus, who called it 'arangus'. (Another name was 'bigarade', derived from Arabic. Bitter orange juice was used as a flavouring.)

"The first mention of the sweet orange in Europe is sometimes said to be that in the archives of the Italian city of Savona, in 1471. Probably the seeds had come through the Genoese trade route, which had extensive connections with the Near East. However, Platina (1475 but having prepared his work in manuscript in the preceding decade)provides a better starting point. He says that sweet oranges "are almost always suitable for the stomach as a first course and the tart ones may be sweetened with sugar", which shows clearly that he knew both kinds.

"Shortly after the Portuguese explorer Vasco de Gama returned from India after his discovery of the sea route around the Cape of Good Hope, in 1498, the Portuguese began to grow a superior kind of sweet orange which was said to be a direct import from 'China'-- a vague designation which however came to be adopted as meaning the sweet orange. Thus 'China' oranges which were an expensive delicacy in Britain from the late 16thcentury on were in fact from Portugal. And this Portuguese orange spread through Southern Europe. The modern Greek for orange is still 'portokali'."

Huette

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 15:26:27 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Oranges was *Sigh* That tomato thing - again

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Did Platina mention oranges? I remember that Martino used oranges, but when

Platina translated Martino's recipes, he used the word "citron," (citron or

lemon) because Latin doesn't (or didn't) have a word for orange. As I

remember, Milham translated Platina's usage as lemon.

Bear

> But of course they had oranges. Both a bitter orange,

> followed by at least two versions of sweet oranges prior

> to 1600. (Navel oranges date from Brazil in the 19th century.)

> Normans encountered oranges in the Middle East and quite probably

> in Southern Italy and Sicily. Venetians had them of course.

> Platina mentions them and his book was published in Venice.

> I know because I sat down and did some research on oranges

> and candying oranges. I ended up with 211 pages in the last

> version with a bibliography that runs from pp 192-208.

> So, What sorts of oranges can be found at Food Lion in October?

> Johnnae

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:42:37 -0500

From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes

twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more than a passing

acquaintance with the fruit.

Daniel

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:12:47 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I found an article online which will be of interest to those who are following this topic.

"The introduction of cultivated citrus to Europe via northern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/b5rh566jwn03431p/fulltext.pdf

FWIW, I don't recall seeing any recipes for limes in the late-period Spanish cookbooks. That doesn't mean that there aren't any; lime trees are mentioned in Herrera's 16th c. agricultural manual.

Brighid ni Chiarain

My NEW email is rcarrollmann at gmail.com

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:33:34 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I don't own a book on the history of citrus, which i understand can

be difficult to study because of the ease with which all citrus plants

hybridize/cross-breed with others, since they both self- and

cross-pollinate, and they develop spontaneous mutations (e.g. the navel

orange).

So i was mystified when some historical sources mentioned that limes were

taken to the Caribbean by the Spanish in the early 1500s. Mystified

because i don't recall coming across any recipes for limes in my reading

of SCA-period European recipes, although there are enough calling for

lemons. >>>

Any idea of the precise wording in the original text and whether or not it

was badly translated?

I suspect the source for the 1500 date may be Oviedo, y Valdez, Gonzales

Fernandes de, "Historia general y natural de las

Indies, Islas y Tierra-Firma del Mar Oceano"; Toledo, 1526. No hard

evidence, but this is a primary source for a lot of the dates concerning

food stuffs in the New World.

The words lime and lemon both seem to derive from a Persian, so the fruit

probably moved into the Mediterranean basin no later than 1000 CE. In my

opinion there is a high probability that they were there quite some time

before that. I also think that they would have been early transplants to

the Spanish New World.

<<< I wonder if this could be because the name for lemon and lime are very

similar, both in Arabic and in most European languages, so limes may have

been substitute in recipes calling for lemons.

Can anyone clarify this mystery and alleviate my confusion?

Does anyone know of any specific recipes calling for limes?

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>>

I know of no specific recipes calling for limes. The confusion about the

similarity in the names appears to go back to the Persian roots.

Bear

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 07:24:13 +0000 (GMT)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 6.7.2008:

<<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes

twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more

than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>>

Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than the lime (modern German Limone).

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:08:38 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>, "Cooks within the SCA"

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So,

6.7.2008:

<<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes

twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more

than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>>

Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A

problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are

used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g.,

probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than

the lime (modern German Limone).

--------

I've found several references to lime in Shakespeare. In Richard II, the

reference appears to be to limestone. In Henry IV, it's a reference to the

practice of adding alkaline earth to fortified wine with a similar reference

in The Merry Wives of Windsor. Midsummer Night's Dream appears to be a

reference to either limestone or cement. In Henry VI are references to

using bird lime to trap birds and meaning "to cement". I haven't found

anything to suggest that Shakespeare was referring to the fruit of C.

medica, in fact all such references in English appear to begin in the

mid-17th Century.

Also, lime or lime tree can be a reference to a linden tree, although the

reference I have found are 17th Century.

I would like to know where the references I haven't found appear in

Shakespeare, so that I might review the context.

Bear

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:23:05 -0700

From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I appreciate all the comments, so far. But before we get wrapped up

in Shakespeare, i'm still hoping someone can find an actual

food-related mention of limes within SCA-period.

Limes, the fruit, are mentioned in five recipes in the Manuel de Mugeres:

For the thorns of the face

Take a sweet lime and cut the top off, and put a little salt inside

it and put it to cook over the embers. And it cooks until it is soft.

And to remove the thorns, you will wet yourself with this juice. And

put powdered ginger on top.

Remedy to prevent hair growth

The juice of sweet limes beaten with egg whites. Comb the hair, put

(the mixture) on (the hair), and powder it with powdered ginger. At

three or four times that this is done it will not return to grow any

more.

Recipe to make bile for the face

Take four cow galls, and an escudilla of the juice of sweet limes,

and another escudilla of water of dirty fleece; and four maraveds of

myrrh, and four (maraveds) of tincal, one of rock solimn; the

well-washed and crushed root of a white lily, another root of an arum

lily, a little raw honey. Boil all this in a glass pot until it is

thick. And take heed that the myrrh, and the tincal, and the solimn

and the honey will finish after having boiled with the other things.

And after it has thickened, strain it with a linen cloth. And put it

in a flask, putting in it four maraveds of camphor.

Tallow for the hands

Two layers of kidney-fat of a goat and one of a sheep, cut into

pieces. Soak it in water for nine days, stirring the water every day.

After washing it very well, and the water has been well-purified,

melt it in a glass pot and throw in a little sweet lime juice. And

afterwards strain it, and make the loaves in your escudillas on sweet

lime juice. And after it solidifies, make the loaves into pieces, and

again melt them in a vessel of silver or glass. And put with it

scented oil, whichever you like and the quantity you desire, and then

make your little loaves.

Water to wash the face

Put in a new stew-pot an azumbre of white wine, and another (azumbre)

of water; and put with it borax, clarimente, camphor, verdigris, rock

solimn, strong southernwood resin, black chick-peas, sea beans, a

small mound of white lead, green dragon, opium poppies, gourd seeds,

bitter almonds: a maraved of each of these things. And grind each of

these things by itself. And put also a little washed turpentine, and

six cleaned and quartered sweet limes. And lid the pot very well, and

put it to the fire. And cook it until it has diminished by three

fingers' breadth. And then put the lid on it and cover it with cloth

and leave it to be a good while so that it rests. And then add into

it four crumbled eggs with the shells and all. And beat it well with

a stick, and again put the cloth back on and leave it two or three

days. And when the three days have passed, strain that water and keep

it in a flask to wash your face with it.

From:

http://larsdatter.com/manual.htm

(there are several items she didn't translate from the 16th C.

Spanish: rock solimn, clarimente, tincal... anyone have any idea what

these are in modern English?)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know the names for lemon and lime are very similar both in Arabic

and in most European languages, as others have remarked. And thanks

for that OED information, Huette, although it only speaks to English

and not when the fruits were differentiated in other places.

So given the linguistic confusion between lemons and limes, if limes

were really being grown in Europe, then i wonder if they may have

been used interchangeably with lemons in cuisine. Does this sound

likely?

Or were they only used medicinally?

Interestingly (well, to me anyway), that article that Bridgit pointed

out indicates that not only were bitter oranges (naranias), lemons

(limones), limes (limas), and citrons (toronias) grown in al-Andalus

and hence SCA-period Spain, but pummelos, too! as "azamboos", from

the Arabic zanbu. Not sure how they were being used, though...

Next question: Has anyone substituted limes in SCA-period recipes

calling for lemons? If so, what has been successful?

I love limeade... maybe next time i make sharbat bi-laimun, i'll use

limes instead of lemons. BTW the Berkeley Bowl has a citrus that

looks like a lemon but isn't sour - IIRC, they're called Palestine

limes... or lemons... i'm now confused :-)

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:56:18 -0700

From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Cc: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

No mention of it in Gerard. Only Lemons.

Davidson has some interesting, but not much more than has been

recounted on the list.

This website recounts Davidson (at least the first part) almost

verbatim http://www.innvista.com/health/foods/fruits/limes.htm

Has anyone checked the index for PPC or for the Oxford Symposium papers?

Between the chemical, the Linden tree and the citrus fruit this is a

sour pickle!

Eduardo

Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:30:43 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The translated recipes call for "sweet lime." IIRC, "sweet lemon" shows up

in German as a term for lime. It might be worth looking at the original

transcription to see what was actually written.

The Palestine lime should be Citrus limettoides AKA the sweet lime or the

Indian sweet lime. Interesting pattern, eh wot?

Bear

I know the names for lemon and lime are very similar both in Arabic and in

most European languages, as others have remarked. And thanks for that OED

information, Huette, although it only speaks to English and not when the

fruits were differentiated in other places.

So given the linguistic confusion between lemons and limes, if limes were

really being grown in Europe, then i wonder if they may have been used

interchangeably with lemons in cuisine. Does this sound likely?

Or were they only used medicinally?

Interestingly (well, to me anyway), that article that Bridgit pointed out

indicates that not only were bitter oranges (naranias), lemons (limones),

limes (limas), and citrons (toronias) grown in al-Andalus and hence

SCA-period Spain, but pummelos, too! as "azamboos", from the Arabic zanbu.

Not sure how they were being used, though...

Next question: Has anyone substituted limes in SCA-period recipes calling

for lemons? If so, what has been successful?

I love limeade... maybe next time i make sharbat bi-laimun, i'll use limes

instead of lemons. BTW the Berkeley Bowl has a citrus that looks like a

lemon but isn't sour - IIRC, they're called Palestine limes... or

lemons... i'm now confused :-)

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:48:24 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] LIMES --- long

To: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>, Cooks within the SCA

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Ok on limes.

In my book on Oranges from 2004, I wrote:

"Limes are not very hardy as regards cold temperatures, and this factor

alone may have kept them limited in cultivation in Europe. Michel de

Nostredame

or Nostradamus in 1555 did provide recipes for preserving limes in his

confectionery work, so they seem to have been known and used in 16th century

France. The recipe in the English translation is titled ?How to preserve

Limes and

bitter oranges while they are small and still green?? It calls for

boiling the fruits in

water and then submerging them in a sugar or honey syrup. Tolkowsky writes

that Moliere?s 17th century Citrons doux or sweet lemons are actually limes.

/Healths Improvement/ which was written by Moffett in the 1590?s and

published

long after his death in 1655 does mention limes, so they were known in

Elizabethan England." page 39.

I just went back and checked Moffett and the passage on lemons and limes

appears on pages

206 and 207.(image 110 on EEBO) and it is clear that he means limes as

he mentions both with relation

to the citrons that were mentioned previously.

I would note also that

Reuther, Webber, and Batchelor's work. The Citrus

Industry. Revised Edition. Riverside, CA: University of California. Division

of Agricultural Sciences, 1967. Volume I: History, World Distribution,

Botany, and Varieties. http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/ is online.

Webber notes that in Classical times that "A tile floor mosaic found in

a Roman villa near Tusculum (modern Frascati) indicates that soon

thereafter lemons and limes were also known in Italy."

Later he writes *"The Lime

* Apparently the first mention of the lime in literature was made by

Abd-Allatif in the thirteenth century. Gallesio (1811, p. 33) stated

that his "balm lemon of smooth skin the size of a pigeon's egg" was

apparently identical with the species of lime of Naples. Evidently,

therefore, the lime also was known to the Arabs, who probably played a

major role in spreading its culture through India to Persia, Palestine,

Egypt, and Europe. The first mention of the lime, under that name,

according to T. W. Brown (1924, p. 74), was apparently by Sir Thomas

Herbert (/Travels/, 1677), who spoke of finding "oranges, lemons, and

limes" on the island Mohelia (Moh?li of the Comoro group, off

Mozambique) during a voyage begun in 1626. However, as has been stated

previously, Sylvaticus in the middle of the thirteenth century spoke of

a fruit vulgarly called /lima/ which apparently was what we now know as

the lime (Gallesio, 1811, p. 268). Sir George Watt (1889-1893) stated

that the Arabic word /limoon/ through the Persian is the Hindi word

/lime/ or /limbu/, probably adopted by the Sanskrit people for this

fruit and used with little change in most languages.

According to T. W. Brown (1924), the first reference to the lime in

Egypt was that made by Thevenot, who in his description of the Mataria

garden in 1657 "alludes to '/des petits limons/' and these could hardly

have been anything else but limes." However, Tolkowsky has noted a

reference in one of the stories of the /Arabian Nights/ to "Egyptian

limes and Sultania oranges and citrons." These ancient tales were

collected in their present form about 1450 A.D."

---

As Bear mentioned, " IIRC, "sweet lemon" shows up in German as a term

for lime. It might be worth looking at the original transcription to see

what was actually written."

I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from Das

Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin.

Searching again in medievalcookery.com under lime pulls up these two

entries:

120 If you would make a game pie

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*

(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)

The original source can be found at David Friedman's website

<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>;

120 If you would make a game pie, which should be warm. Lard the game

well and cook it and make a formed [pastry] dish and lay in it preserved

limes and cinnamon sticks and currants and lay the game therein and also

put beef suet into it and a little /Malavosia/ and let it cook. This pie

is better warm than cold.

69 A pastry from a capon

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*

(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)

The original source can be found at David Friedman's website

<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>;

69 A pastry from a capon. First pluck the capon and let it boil,

afterwards take it out and remove the small breast bones and chop beef

fat small and put the fat in a bowl. Put two quarts of good wine

therein, a good portion of lean broth, pepper, ginger, cloves and a

little ground nutmeg. Two peeled lemons or limes are also good. After

that prepare an oblong shaped pastry crust. The way in which you should

make the pastry is found in number [sixty one]. In the same way you can

prepare chickens, doves and birds of all kinds for pies.

------

Searching under "lime" as a term in EEBO-TCP turns up 3300 entries

because of the quick-lime and stone lime connections. Or as in ashes and

lime! Searching under "lime" and limiting the search to books that are

catalogued under "cookery" comes up with 8 entries and these are

connected with soaps and concoctions such:

Woolley who in 1670 notes

"XXXVI. To get away the Signs of the Small Pox.:

Quench some Lime in white Rosewater, then shake it very well, and use it

at your pleasure; when you at any time.."

Digby in his Choice and experimented receipts offers this:

An excellent Lime-water for Obstructions and Ulcers, &c.

TAke one pound of Stone-Lime

hot from the Kiln, and pour upon it a gallon of fair water, let it stand

eight hours, and then pour it off clear, and put into it of English

Licoris, Aniseeeds and Sassafras, of each four ounces, large Mace two

drams; let these infuse in the water twelve hours, then pour it off from

the Ingredients, and keep it for your use.

Drink of this Water twice or thrice a day, half a pint at a time. It is

very excellent for all manner of Obstructions and Ulcers, either inward

or outward, and likewise to be used by way of injection.

We can tell in this case that it's stone lime being used but some of the

other recipes seem to be using stone lime water in place of a citrus

water. This seems to occur in some medicinal texts in the late 17th

century, esp. in the 1680's.

------------

As for a recent book on Citrus fruits see Laszlo's Citrus. A History

which was published in 2007.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:56:42 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] LIMES --- long

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

****clipped original message****

<<< As Bear mentioned, " IIRC, "sweet lemon" shows up in German as a term

for lime. It might be worth looking at the original transcription to see

what was actually written." >>>

I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from Das

Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin.

Searching again in medievalcookery.com under lime pulls up these two

entries:

120 If you would make a game pie

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*

(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)

The original source can be found at David Friedman's website

<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>;

120 If you would make a game pie, which should be warm. Lard the game

well and cook it and make a formed [pastry] dish and lay in it preserved

limes and cinnamon sticks and currants and lay the game therein and also

put beef suet into it and a little /Malavosia/ and let it cook. This pie

is better warm than cold.

69 A pastry from a capon

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*

(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)

The original source can be found at David Friedman's website

<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>;

69 A pastry from a capon. First pluck the capon and let it boil,

afterwards take it out and remove the small breast bones and chop beef

fat small and put the fat in a bowl. Put two quarts of good wine

therein, a good portion of lean broth, pepper, ginger, cloves and a

little ground nutmeg. Two peeled lemons or limes are also good. After

that prepare an oblong shaped pastry crust. The way in which you should

make the pastry is found in number [sixty one]. In the same way you can

prepare chickens, doves and birds of all kinds for pies.

Johnnae

**************

I pulled out the Stopp transcription/translation of Welser and looked at

these recipes in the original and in Stopp's modern German. Recipe 120 uses

the term "limona" translated as "Limonen." Recipe 69 uses the phrase, "2

geschnitten zittran oder lemoin," translated to "Zwei gescha:lt Zitronen

oder Limonen."

The modern definition of "lemon" is "Zitrone," "saure Limone," or

"eigentliche Limone." "Citron" is "Limone," or, in an obsolete usage,

"Zitrone." "Lime" is "Limetta" or "su:sse Limone."

In these instances, the translation to "lime" is probably in error.

Bear

Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:12:35 +0000 (GMT)

From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Limes

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

<< Michel de Nostredame or Nostradamus in 1555 did provide

recipes for preserving limes in his confectionery work, so

they seem to have been known and used in 16th century France.

The recipe in the English translation is titled ?How to preserve

Limes and bitter oranges while they are small and still green?? It

calls for ... >>

Could you please comment on the translation of 16th century

French "(petitz) limons" (1556 edition of Nostradamus)

with "lime". Given the "confusion" in terminology, I'd be

happy to learn more about this passage.

<< /Healths Improvement/ which was written by Moffett in the

1590?s and published long after his death in 1655 does mention limes,

so they were known in Elizabethan England." page 39. I just went back

and checked Moffett and the passage on lemons and limes

appears on pages 206 and 207.(image 110 on EEBO) and it is

clear that he means limes as he mentions both with

relation to the citrons that were mentioned previously. >>

The title page says: "Written by that ever Famous Thomas Moffett ...".

But it continues: "Corrected and Enlarged by Christopher Bennet,

Docktor in Physick, ...". Can we be separate the Moffett parts

from the Bennet parts?

<< Later he writes *"The Lime * Apparently the first mention of the lime in literature was made by Abd-Allatif in the thirteenth century. ... >>

The article, Brighid brought to our attention, says:

"The first reference known to us to the lime is that of

Abu l-Khayr ... when referring to it as ... [lim] in some

moment between the eleventh and twelfth centuries". (509)

<< I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from

Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin. ... 120 ... 69 >>

The German words in the "Kochbuch" are "lemoin" (in 69) and "lemona" (120).

There are dozens of further quotations for "lemoni", "limoni" in the

German corpus. The question remains: what kind of evidence is there that these

words refer to limes. (Apart from the Giessmann and Armstrong translation)

Plant names are hell ...

Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:56:13 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Limes

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Since you asked--

emilio szabo wrote:

<<<

<< Michel de Nostredame or Nostradamus in 1555 did provide

recipes for preserving limes in his confectionery work, so

they seem to have been known and used in 16th century France.

The recipe in the English translation is titled ?How to preserve

Limes and bitter oranges while they are small and still green?? It

calls for ... >>

Could you please comment on the translation of 16th century

French "(petitz) limons" (1556 edition of Nostradamus)

with "lime". Given the "confusion" in terminology, I'd be

happy to learn more about this passage.

>>>

What I was relying on in 2003 when I originally did the text was

Boeser's translation The Elixirs of Nostradamus.

I just looked up "limon" in the Oxford Premium Reference Online and

about half the time the word is defined

as lime and for the other half of the time it's defined as lemon! And it

could be since Boesler was German he went with lime

because of his background in German. This translation is based on a

German edition of Nostradamus translated into modern

German and then into English. Would the original German edition in the

16th century have listed limes and not lemons or green lemons and oranges?

Who knows? (I did this recipe with limes and it does work with small

limes.)

I just looked at my facsimile of an edition from 1557 and it says

/limons tendres/ and later /les lymons/ and later /les orenges, getons,

& lymons/.

Not only are plant names hell, but so is the spelling.

<<<

<< /Healths Improvement/ which was written by Moffett in the

1590?s and published long after his death in 1655 does mention limes,

so they were known in Elizabethan England." page 39. I just went back

and checked Moffett and the passage on lemons and limes

appears on pages 206 and 207.(image 110 on EEBO) and it is

clear that he means limes as he mentions both with

relation to the citrons that were mentioned previously. >>

The title page says: "Written by that ever Famous Thomas Moffett ...".

But it continues: "Corrected and Enlarged by Christopher Bennet,

Docktor in Physick, ...". Can we be separate the Moffett parts

from the Bennet parts?

>>>

As I understand it the text is Moffett's. Bennett saw it into print. I

reread the preface just now and he doesn't say

that he improved it or added anything to Moffet's manuscript or words.

The 1746 edition is now up on ECCO

so I will take a look at that.

Read the introduction in that and it doesn't say that Bennett expanded

the original manuscript.

There is a note that seems to indicate that the original manuscript was

then in existence as part of a Sloan collection,

so sometime I shall have to see if it's still around.

The UM is having problems with the Oxford DN Biographies, so I can't see

what it says at the moment.

<<<

<< Later he writes *"The Lime * Apparently the first mention of the

lime in literature was made

by Abd-Allatif in the thirteenth century. ... >>

The article, Brighid brought to our attention, says:

"The first reference known to us to the lime is that of

Abu l-Khayr ... when referring to it as ... [lim] in some

moment between the eleventh and twelfth centuries". (509)

>>>

I don't know. Could well be that they can date it back another century

or two now.

<<<

<< I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from

Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin. ... 120 ... 69 >>

The German words in the "Kochbuch" are "lemoin" (in 69) and "lemona" (120).

There are dozens of further quotations for "lemoni", "limoni" in the

German corpus. The question remains: what kind of evidence is there

that these words refer to limes. (Apart from the Giessmann and Armstrong

translation)

Plant names are hell ...

>>>

And if the translation for Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin, that is online

needs to be corrected, I don't think the translator is around anymore.

Johnna

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:08:04 -0500

From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Biron: A lemon.

Longaville: Stuck with cloves.

Loves Labour's Lost, 5,2

Daniel

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 22:39:17 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

According to the OED, the first printed instance of the use of the word "Lime" as a fruit or fruit tree was in 1638. In fact, the first meaning of "lime" in the OED is about birdlime, which was used first in the 8th century. The chemical "lime" started in the 14th century. The OED lists five different meanings of "lime" before it gets to the fruit meaning. I doubt very much if Shakespeare was referring to the fruit when he used the word "lime" twelve times. More likely he was referring to the substance or chemical.

Huette

Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 02:45:57 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?

To: <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>, "Cooks within the SCA"

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

take with grain of salt

http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/Specials%20and%20Holidays/Limes%20Origin%20Uses%

20Recipes.htm

(note I tried to tinyurl but the website seems to be having problems)

"Limes are a smallish fruit which belong to the plant family Rutaceae

(citrus family). They are similar to lemons but generally smaller and have

a fresher taste and a more aromatic smell. The whole of the plant is used

for culinary purposes i.e. the juice, skin (pericarp), pulp in some cases

the leaves and the fruits are usually picked and used when unripe (green).

When fully ripe the fruit are yellow.

Origin and History

The Lime is a native of the East Indies and has spread all over the world in

tropical and near tropical regions. Here we are going to concentrate on the

three best known varieties used in cooking.

Mexican lime Arabian traders introduced it to North Africa and the Near East

towards the end of the 10th Century AD and it was in turn introduced the

Mediterranean by the Crusaders during the 12th and 13th Centuries AD. Good

old Columbus is credited with having introduced it to the New World and

Spanish immigrants took it on to Florida where the success in its

cultivation in the Florida Keys led to it being referred to as the Key Lime.

Key limes are much smaller than Persian limes.

Persian Lime also known as Tahiti Lime (Citrus latifolia) is from uncertain

origins. It is thought to be a hybrid of the Mexican Lime (see above) and

Citron (Citrus medica) developed in the early 20th century. They are larger

than the Mexican lime, usually seedless and less less acidic.

Kaffir lime (Citrus hystrix.) is native to South East Asia. Popular in Thai,

Indonesian and Malaysian cuisines (amongst others), it is the leaves which

are mostly used. As this plant grows wild in many places, one can only

assume that it has been used for culinary purposes for thousands of years."

Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 23:51:33 +0000

From: t.d.decker at att.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] poll - what is a citrangula?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

In a translation of one of Avicenna's medical texts (11th Century), citrangula is generally translated as orange. I've also seen a later text (author and date escapes me) where citrangula and limones (either citrons or lemons) are mentioned in the same sentence. However, we can't rule out that Scully is reference a regional usage of the word.

Bear

-------------- Original message from Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>: -----

Just trying to get a quick idea of what the experts think.

Scully says citrangula means lemon.

Maier says citrangula is a bitter orange.

Both refer to fourteenth-century texts.

Giano

Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 20:30:31 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] poll - what is a citrangula?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

A quick search in Google books finds lots of mentions.

oleum de citrangula means oil of oranges.

Manoscritto Lucano

By Michael S?thold

Published by Librairie Droz, 1994 on page 9

citrangula is given as arancia amara

Johnnae

Volker Bach wrote:

<<< Just trying to get a quick idea of what the experts think.

Scully says citrangula means lemon.

Maier says citrangula is a bitter orange.

Both refer to fourteenth-century texts.

Giano >>>

Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:03:03 +0000 (GMT)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrangula in Avicenna or in Ioannes

Damascenus

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> schrieb am Mo, 4.5.2009:

Scully says citrangula means lemon.

Maier says citrangula is a bitter orange.

Both refer to fourteenth-century texts.

> Which texts? Which languages?

---------

Both Latin, though both influenced by their respective (Italian and French) vernaculars). Scully's identification is for the Opusculum de Saporibus, Maier's for the Liber de Coquina. I've seen citrangula more commonly identified as orange, but that could be a coincidence depending on the texts I have access to.

Giano

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:32:16 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Unless you are doing very early Tudor, the orange could have been a sweet

orange. Sweet oranges enter Mediterranean Europe via Portugal in the first

quarter of the 16th Century and quickly became the favorite orange of

Europe. By Elizabethean times, sweet and sour oranges would have been

readily available.

Bear

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:38:02 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Since the recipe is given as being from "G. Markham- The English Housewife"

it could well be a sweeter orange. Markham's EH first came out in 1615

and appears often thereafter.

There is a reliable online history of oranges. It's part of the book:

Reuther, Webber, and Batchelor. /The Citrus Industry/. Revised Edition.

Riverside, CA: University of California. Division of Agricultural

Sciences, 1967. Volume I: History, World Distribution, Botany, and

Varieties. http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/

Actually they point out, as does Tolkowsky, that it's probable some sort

of sweet orange was already growing

"in the Mediterranean regions of Europe prior to Vasco da Gama's voyage

of discovery of 1497 A.D"....

because in 1483, "the king of France, Louis XI, ....requests that the

governor send him "citrons and sweet oranges , muscatel pears and

parsnips, and it is for the holy man who eats neither meat nor fish and

you will be doing me a very great pleasure."

Since the holy man referred to is Saint Francis of Paula, who had just

arrived at the court of Louis XI,

Tolkowsky considered it probable that the pious monk had already become

accustomed to eating sweet oranges in his native country of Calabria.

By the beginning of the sixteenth century, there was abundant

evidence showing that the sweet orange had become well established and

had assumed commercial importance in southern Europe."

Johnnae

Terry Decker wrote:

<<< Unless you are doing very early Tudor, the orange could have been a

sweet orange. Sweet oranges enter Mediterranean Europe via Portugal

in the first quarter of the 16th Century and quickly became the

favorite orange of Europe. By Elizabethean times, sweet and sour

oranges would have been readily available.

Bear >>>

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:43:57 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Oranges was Tudor Recipe help

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Nice quote. Apochryphally (and according to Wikipedia), the sweet oranges

referenced as a "Portugals" are all descended from a single root stock

brought from China by Vasco da Gama, said tree now residing at the Lisbon

home of the Count de Saint-Laurent. The story is almost certainly bogus

considering Da Gama never reached China and I haven't been able to locate

anything that ties Saint-Laurent to Lisbon. Louis XI's words make the tale

demostrably false. It also blows a big hole in the generally accepted

Portuguese introduction that I've held to for a number of years.

The quote lends some credence to a linguistic argument for the introduction

of sweet oranges to the Mediterranean via Persia in the Late Middle Ages.

Bear

<<< Actually they point out, as does Tolkowsky, that it's probable some sort

of sweet orange was already growing

"in the Mediterranean regions of Europe prior to Vasco da Gama's voyage of

discovery of 1497 A.D"....

because in 1483, "the king of France, Louis XI, ....requests that the

governor send him "citrons and sweet oranges , muscatel pears and

parsnips, and it is for the holy man who eats neither meat nor fish and

you will be doing me a very great pleasure."

Since the holy man referred to is Saint Francis of Paula, who had just

arrived at the court of Louis XI,

Tolkowsky considered it probable that the pious monk had already become

accustomed to eating sweet oranges in his native country of Calabria.

Johnnae >>>

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:20:43 -0400

From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help - the Seville Orange

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Bear wrote:

<<< Unless you are doing very early Tudor, the orange could have been a sweet

orange. Sweet oranges enter Mediterranean Europe via Portugal in the first

quarter of the 16th Century and quickly became the favorite orange of

Europe. By Elizabethan times, sweet and sour oranges would have been

readily available. >>>

I call the Seville orange: Citrus ayrantium. Although introduced to the

Iberian Peninsula at the end of the 15 C or the beginning of the 16th I

question its availability in northern Europe before the 17-18C although

it could have been common on the Med. Shakespeare does advertise it in

Much Ado II i.204, saying "/The count is neither sad//, //nor sick//,

//nor/ merry, /nor/ well: but civil (ciuill), /count/; civil (ciuill) as

an orange, *.* . ."

Now would that be a bitter or sweet count??

Nola calls for "toronjas" which Brigid translates as oranges while

others might translate it as citron. In some places she specifies sour,

in others she indicates sour saying verjuice or orange juice or orange

juice and sugar, still in others she says wine or orange juice making

one think that could be sweet orange juice and in other cases there is

no clue whether sweet or sour. Nola was published in 1529 but it is

thought to have been written between 1470-1480.

Suey

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 01:04:39 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help - the Seville Orange

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I call the Seville orange: Citrus ayrantium. Although introduced to the

Iberian Peninsula at the end of the 15 C or the beginning of the 16th I

question its availability in northern Europe before the 17-18C although it

could have been common on the Med. Shakespeare does advertise it in Much

Ado II i.204, saying "/The count is neither sad//, //nor sick//, //nor/

merry, /nor/ well: but civil (ciuill), /count/; civil (ciuill) as an

orange, *.* . ."

Now would that be a bitter or sweet count??

Nola calls for "toronjas" which Brigid translates as oranges while others

might translate it as citron. In some places she specifies sour, in others

she indicates sour saying verjuice or orange juice or orange juice and

sugar, still in others she says wine or orange juice making one think that

could be sweet orange juice and in other cases there is no clue whether

sweet or sour. Nola was published in 1529 but it is thought to have been

written between 1470-1480.

Suey >>>

According to Davidson in The Oxford Companion to Food, the sour or Seville

orange (C. aurantia), was being grown in Sicily at the beginning of the 11th

Century and was being grown around Seville by the end of the 12th Century

with the earliest known description of the orange being from Albertus Magnus

in the 13th Century. This tends to agree with most other sources, so I

question the accuracy of a 15th Century introduction for the Seville orange.

A late 15th Century date works for sweet oranges (some variant of C.

sinensis). Again according to Davidson, the first known reference to sweet

oranges occurs in the Savona city archives of 1471, however he suggests that

the actual introduction (via the Geonese) was earlier, based on a quote from

Platina, who says sweet oranges "are almost always suitable for the stomach

as a first course and the tart ones may be sweetened with sugar." I haven't

located the quote, but I have found reference to oranges and Milham's

footnote on "mala rancia."

I believe that oranges were definitely available in England during the Tudor

period. One of the people invloved in studying the plantain that was found

in Tudor midden is working on a paper on the exotic fruit market in London.

Unfortunately, it is late and I will be traveling the next couple of days,

so I will have to set this aside for now.

Bear

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:23:44 -0700

From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help - the Seville Orange

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On 6/12/09 11:04 PM, "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:

<<< based on a quote from Platina, who says sweet oranges "are almost always

suitable for the stomach

as a first course and the tart ones may be sweetened with sugar." I haven't

located the quote, but I have found reference to oranges and Milham's

footnote on "mala rancia." >>>

It can be found on page 146-147 of Milham in BK II Entry 7

The whole quote is "Almost the same things can be said about those citron or

medicinal apples which are commonly called oranges: really because some are

sweet, some tart, the reason for eating is repeated from the earlier

recipes. Even the sweet ones ae good for the stomach if eaten at any time

before the meal. They are not tart if they have been dipped in sugar, which

is done when the peel is removed and the membranes are taken out."

Milham has two footnotes that deal with citron, citron apples and oranges.

They can be found on page 143 and 145.

Eduardo

Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:02:50 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Elizabethan chickeny goodness

<<< This is from The Good Housewife's Jewell:

To boile a Capon with Orenges and Lemmons. Take Orenges or Lemmons

pilled, and cutte them the long way, and if you can keepe your cloves

whole and put them into your best broth of Mutton or Capon with prunes

or currants and three or fowre dates, and when these have beene well

sodden put whole pepper great mace, a good piece of suger, some rose

water, and eyther white or claret Wine, and let al these seeth

together a while, and so serve it upon soppes with your capon.

I skipped the sugar on the theory that the oranges in the original

recipe were probably sour oranges (since the other option is lemons) >>>

<< Do we know at what point "oranges" in recipes shifted its default

meaning from sour to sweet? By Elizabethan times sweet oranges were

available, but I have no idea how commonly they were used.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com >>

I don't know that we can definitively say whether, when or if they

would have been sweet or sour

when found in an English market in the late 16th century.

Both types were both being grown, but what would have been available

at what times in the marketplace and at what price, ????

Gerard's The herball or Generall historie of plantes of 1633 says

about the orange:

"the fruit is round like a ball, euery circumstance belonging to the

forme is very well knowne to all; the taste is soure, sometimes sweet,

and often of a taste betweene both: the seeds are like those of the

Limon."

So here we have a report that the taste may be "soure, sometimes

sweet" and often something in between.

-------

There are earlier versions of this recipe. See:

To stue a Capon in Lemmons. (this is the more lemon version)

from A Book of Cookrye first published in 1584

(England, 1591)

Slice your Lemmons and put them in a platter, and put to them white

Wine and Rosewater, and so boile them and Sugar til they be tender.

Then take the best of the broth wherin your Capon is boyled, and put

thereto whole Mace, whole pepper & red Corance, barberies, a little

time, & good store of Marow. Let them boile well togither til the

broth be almost boiled away that you have no more then will wette your

Sops. Then poure your Lemmons upon your Capon, & season your broth

with Vergious and Sugar, and put it upon your Capon also.

And from the same book

To boyle a Capon with Orenges or Lemmons.

Take your Capon and boyle him tender and take a little of the broth

when it is boyled and put it into a pipkin with Mace and Sugar a good

deale, and pare three Orenges and pil them and put them in your

pipkin, and boile them a little among your broth, and thicken it with

wine and yolkes of egges, and Sugar a good deale, and salt but a

little, and set your broth no more on the fire for quailing, and serve

it without sippets.

Another is just for the sauce:

To make sauce for a capon an other way.

Take Claret Wine, Rosewater, sliced Orenges, Sinamon and ginger, and

lay it upon Sops, and lay your Capon upon it.

----- (BTW, All of these are indexed at medievalcookery.com)

I think what is more important with regard to these recipes would be

the amount of meat found in a capon in proportion to the sauce. I

suspect the recipes may well intend that there be more meat than sauce.

Johnnae

From: Anne <orionsdaughter at gmail.com>

Date: January 9, 2011 10:19:45 PM CST

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Re: So, Dulcia and Alysoun Plan Your Feast Menu, or...Are You Allergic to Iodine? Then Stay Home.

limes are not a new world food. Key or otherwise.

Key limes are also known as Mexican lime and West Indies lime. Cultivated for thousands of years in the Indo-Malayan region, this variety has long been treasured for its fruit and decorative foliage.

The Key lime made its way to North Africa and the Near East via Arabian traders, and then carried on to Palestine and Mediterranean Europe by the Crusaders. Columbus is credited with bringing the Key lime to Hispaniola (now known as Haiti), where it was carried on by Spanish settlers to Florida.

From: Anne <orionsdaughter at gmail.com>

Date: January 10, 2011 7:43:16 PM CST

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

Subject: {TheTriskeleTavern} For Stefan, limes, lemons and citrus oh my!

<<< fruit-citrus-msg (164K) 4/17/10 Period citrus fruits. Recipes.

http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-FRUITS/fruit-citrus-msg.html

Stefan >>>

I noticed that the first post had no documentation in it... it is also rather erroneous. Citrus is an old world fruit. Key limes contrary to the authors theory, I don't know what else to call it. Are NOT a new world food.

While this is not a perfect source...........

http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/fruits/types-of-lime.asp

read the history part of limes.

http://ezinearticles.com/?History-Of-Citrus&;id=270715

In my Master Gardening class the UF instructor told us that oranges are believed to have originated in India and lime and or lemons SE Asia.

If that is correct, then Key limes would indeed be an old world food.

Aine

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:23:20 -0400

From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My dinner de-brief

<<< What's the earliest mention anyone here has seen of citrus fruits

north of Spain and Italy? >>>

It's not early, but Rumpolt has a *lot* of recipes with lemon.

Including salted lemons, which would travel better than fresh lemons.

Ranvaig

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:01:27 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My dinner de-brief

<<< What's the earliest mention anyone here has seen of citrus fruits north of

Spain and Italy? >>>

It's not early, but Rumpolt has a *lot* of recipes with lemon. Including

salted lemons, which would travel better than fresh lemons.

Ranvaig

============

Lemons show up in Sabina Welserin (1553).

I have encountered a reference to oranges being delivered to Southhampton in

a Spanish ship in 1290, but have not located the original source. Queen

Eleanor (wife of Edward I) is supposed to have purchased some, so there may

be a reference in the royal accounts.

John Lydgate (1370-1451) references oranges and lemons in the poem Pur le

Roy celebrating the arrival of Henry VI in London in 1432.

Bear

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 14:58:39 -0400

From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes for Seville Orange Peel

<<< I've just scored a heap of Seville Orange

Peel... I'll keep and freeze the juice for

recipes later but I want to use the peel...

I do remember the ex-wife years ago making

suckets from the peel, but for the life of me, I

cant find a recipe... >>>

Rumpolt has a number of recipes using Seville

oranges (Pomerantzen) the peel, the juice, as

well as the whole fruit. No mention of sweet

oranges.

Meat is often studded or covered (gespickt) with orange peel

then stud it with a Seville orange/ and cut the

orange wide/ and nicely thin/ and stud it with it

(stick pieces of the orange peel into the meat)/

and when it is nearly time to dress it/

Meat or fish is cooked with orange juice

Orange juice squeezed over meat just before it is served.

When one wants to dress it on a table/ then one

presses sour Seville orange juice into it/ then

it will be good and lovely.

Carbonados from the capon. Take the capon/ pull

the skin off/ dismember thighs and wings from it/

beat with a knife back/ salt and pepper it/ lay

it on a grill/ and roast it quickly away/ baste

it with hot bacon (with bacon fat??)/ and when

you will dress it/ then pour a nice brown broth

over it/ or peel a seville

/ that is sour/ nicely wide and thin/ lay it

nicely on the carbonados/ and press the juice

from the seville orange on it/ and let it be soon

carried onto a table/ while it is warm/ like this

it is good and elegant.

"Pobrat" sauce is made with orange juice.

And if you will take with it Seville oranges/

salted or unsalted lemons/ then slice it nicely

wide under it/ or make a pepper (sauce) under it

from a chicken blood/ Then take to it a little

black raisins/ cinnamon/ cloves/ ground pepper/

and a little sugar/ let it come to a boil

together/ then give it under the roast.)

When one will give it warm/ then one makes a

Pobrat sauce under it/ be it sweet or sour/ or

else in a brown broth/ that is nicely sour. Or

make a sweet Pobrat sauce/ take a good handful of

sugar/ that is ground/ add it in a small tinned

kettle/ or in a small pan/ that the potter makes/

add to it sugar/ ground cinnamon/ take also a

little saffron and cloves under it/ pour a little

wine over it/ that the sugar just melts and

glazes/ cut from a citron nicely wide under it/

or from salted/ or sour lemon/ that is fresh/ or

from a Seville orange/ Put it in the kettle/ and

let just a boil open (come just to a boil)/ so it

becomes nicely white from sugar/ when it is

cooked. If you will instead save the sugar/ then

take a little browned flour to it/ so the probrat

also becomes thick and good/ also pour a little

vinegar in it/ so it becomes lovely and well

tasting. And such a pobrat sauce one can give

under all sorts of birds/ that are roasted/ also

well with wild game.

Cold roasted rock pheasant with a pobrat sauce/

which has no fat/ as is described before/ to make

the pobrat from pure sugar/ let come to a boil

with wine and vinegar/ orange or lemon sliced

nicely wide/ let come to a boil with it/ after

that pour into the dish and let become cold/ lay

the roasted rock pheasant in it/ when it is

sprinkled with cloves and cinnamon/ and not with

bacon/ because it is not lovely with bacon/

especially if one wishes to eat it cold in this

manner.

A pheasant roasted warm with a sweet Pobrat

sauce. Take wine/ likewise also a little

vinegar/ saffron/ cinnamon and seville orange

sliced in it/ sour lemon or citron made well

sweet/ and let come to a boil with it/ that it

becomes thick from sugar/ like this it becomes

good and also well tasting.

Seville oranges sliced and sprinkled with

sugar are one of the usual condiments

(Zugeh?rung) served with a roast.

Sour Seville orange juice. When one presses out

the seville orange/ one mixes the juice with

cinnamon and sugar/ given cold to the roast/ is

good and well tasting.

Seville oranges cut nicely wide/ and sprinkled with sugar/ are also good.

Oranges were served as a salad

Salad from oranges and juice.

Dry orange peels were served as a salad

Seville Orange salad/ peel and cut them nicely wide/ sprinkle with white sugar.

Orange tart

Seville orange tart/ peel and slice them nicely

wide/ and bake it quickly in an oven/ give it

warm or cold on a table/ as it is good and well

tasting in both manners.

Both orange peels and whole oranges were preserved (Eyngemachte)

It also says to buy sugar coated (vberzogen)

orange peels from the Apothecary (Apotecken)

Take a Seville orange peel/ soak it whole/ or cut

it small/ let soak fourteen days in water and

salt/ until the bitterness comes away/ wash with

cold water/ and set to the fire in another water/

and let boil well/ take it out/ and cool off/

preserve with clarified sugar/ as one preserves

the citron/ like this it becomes good and well

tasting.

Then here is the recipe for citron

Take a citron (Zitron)/ and is it inside juicy/

then cut the juice out/ and press it/ boil it

with quince juice/ and make sweet/ pour in a

mold/ or in a box/ like this it becomes good and

lovely.

Take the next citron/ and slice it fine

lengthwise/ cut the white from the peel/ prick

the peels with a bodkin or needle/ soak in a cold

water/ pour a handful of salt or three into it/

after the citron/ and let soak in it three or

four nights/ wash again three or four waters/ and

let soak again a night or two/ that the salt

comes away

set to (the fire) in a tinned fish kettle with

water/ and let simmer/ until one can pull the

yellow peel away with the fingers/ put them on a

clean board with the white/ that you have cut

away:

Since the gold from citron must boil longer/ than

the white/ and when has cooled down a little/

then put it in clear sugar/ that is clarified and

nicely cooked thick/ let lay there in a day or

four/ so the sugar becomes thin again/ then

clarify it again as a new with white from an egg/

let cook until thick again/

pour it through a wool cloth/ pour it again over

the citron/ and put three or four times

therefore/ like this it becomes even better/ and

keeps long. Thus one preserves the citron. You

might also cut the peel from citron nicely thin

and long/ like this it is also elegant and good.

Or made into preserves

Seville orange juice let boil with peach juice/ becomes good and well tasting.

Ranvaig

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 14:57:28 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes for Seville Orange Peel

The peel is commonly used to prepare orange marmalade. As sweet oranges

begin to arrive in Europe around 1520, it is highly probable that the sucket

recipe in question uses Seville oranges.

Bear

<<< It is my understanding that the orange referred to in nearly all medieval

Islamic cookbooks -- from Baghdad to al-Andalus -- is the bitter or

Seville orange. If I recall correctly (I don't have the books with me

right now), it's usually the pulp or the juice the want, so the pel alone

might not be usable in the recipes. Still, you may want to consult one of

the several collections:

Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic World (Zaouali)

Medieval Islamic Cookery (Perry, Rodinson, et al.)

Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (Nasrallah)

Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook (Perry)

-- Galefridus >>>

Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:39:55 +0000

From: CHARLES POTTER <basiliusphocas at hotmail.com>

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes for Seville Orange Peel

One of the things I do when I have fresh Seville oranges is remove only the zest (orange skin) and leave the white pith. The white pith is very bitter. The juice and zest will both freeze and will make a very good vinaigrette with olive oil, salt, and sugar or honey.

Master B

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:18:37 -0400 (EDT)

From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Early Italian oranges

p 137 of this modern journal has an interesting article on the origin of

oranges in Italy:

Quaderni d'italianistica : revue officielle de la Soci?t? canadienne pour

les ?tudes italiennes = official journal of the Canadian Society for

Italian Studies, 1994

https://ia700402.us.archive.org/32/items/quaderniditalian15cana/quadernidita

lian15cana.pdf

Jim Chevallier

www.chezjim.com

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:32:48 -0400 (EDT)

From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus at optimum.net>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons

<<< I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something different.

Lady Natal'ia Georgievicha >>>

I'm pretty sure that Meyer lemons are a modern cultivar, dating from the

18th or 19th century. Nevertheless, I see no reason why you couldn't use

the things in any recipe calling for lemon juice, pulp, or zest. There

are a number of limuwiyya/limuniyya recipes in al-Baghdadi, the

Description of Familiar Foods, and the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook, to

say nothing of the various medieval and Renaissance European cookbooks.

-- Galefridus

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 14:42:14 -0500

From: MarietteA <mariettea at jfolse.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons

Meyer lemons are a cross between a lemon and a mandarin orange. They

originated in China as house plants. In the early 1900's, Frank Meyer,

an agricultural explorer, discovered them there and introduced it to the

U.S. They don't have the tang of a regular lemon, but make a very

delicious lemon icebox pie.

Mariette Acocella

Communications Department

Chef John Folse & Co.