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apples-msg - 3/29/10

 

Period apples and apple recipes.

 

NOTE: See also these files: fruits-msg, fruit-citrus-msg, fruit-melons-msg, fruit-pears-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, Hst-U-o-Aples-art, desserts-msg, crabapples-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: storm at hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden)

Date: 23 Oct 91 16:01:04 GMT

 

       We planted a "period apple tree" several years ago in a flush

of agrarian authenticity. It is producing now. In my opinion the

Gilliflour (which can be traced back to 1600, and was brought to

this country by T. Jefferson) is no where near as good as...

        We live in apple country. A local farm grows 52 variety of

apples and I have tasted more than half of them. My favorite apples

(depending on use) include Cortlands, Northern Spys, McCoons,

Granny Smiths and Red Delicious. It does not include Gillyflours.

The flavor is mild, too sweet, and the pulp is mushy.

       Sometimes paintings show period fruits. Oranges used to be

half white membrane. According to National Geographic, beets were

solely a leaf crop until the last century. Carrots were also small

enough so that we should really not serve anything but "baby carrots"

at events.

       Remember, the reason that venison was prized was because the

herds were protected, and beef cattle were worked. Food ain't what it once

was, and for this we should be intensley grateful for the hard work

and dilligence of our ancestors.

       By the Way- has anyone got a source for the appropriate pine bark

to grind up and put in one's pease bread?   Arastorm

 

 

From: David.Calafrancesco at drakkar.mhv.net (David Calafrancesco)

Date: 22 Apr 97 23:30:58 -0500

 

     Title: Appulmoy

Categories: 14th cent., Fruit

     Yield: 50 servings

   30 c  Apples                          1 1/2 c  Flour, rice

   24 c  Water                           1 1/2 c  Honey

     4 c  Almond milk                         3 ts Salt

   18 ea Saffron, threads              

 

- --------------------------------POWDER FORT--------------------------------

   3/4 ts Pepper                              3 ts Cinnamon

     3 ts Ginger                              3 ts Cloves

   "Curye on Inglysch," edited by Constance B. Hieatt and Sharon Butler.

   Oxford University Press, 1985. pg.116 #81, from "Forme of Cury."

  

   Appulmoy. Take apples and seep hem in water; drawe hem thurgh a

straynour. Take almaunde mylke and hony and flour of rys, safroun and

powdour fort and salt, seep it stondyng.

  

   Redaction by Oksana Goncharova:

  

   Appulmoy. Take apples and boil them in water; draw them through a

strainer. Take almond milk and honey and flour of rice, saffron and powder

fort and salt, and boil it standing.

  

   Redaction instructions:

  

   Peel and chop apples. Cook the apples in water until tender. Drain the

excess water. Add almond milk ( to make almond milk ; take blanched

almonds and chop them up in a mini chopper or food processor. Take the

chopped almonds and put them in a blender, using liquify,

   and mix water in a little at a time. I use a ratio of about 1/8 th cup of

almond to about 1 cup of water.) Add crushed saffron (take some of the

almond milk and crush the threads of saffron in a morter and pestle, with

the milk.) Add rice flour, honey, salt and powder fort. Simmer over low

heat, stirring frequently, until mixture has thickened.

   This recipe can be made more spicy by adding more of the powder fort, if

you like, my husband enjoys that, I have weaker tongue tolerance.

   This recipe takes about 15 min. to make a 3 cup batch (8) servings.

- -----

Haraldr Bassi, Frosted Hills, East

haraldr at drakkar.mhv.net

 

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:39:13 -0400 (EDT)

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - apples

 

<< Anyone have any period apple treats that I can make up for the fighters

>to take to "Not Necessarily Pointless War" this weekend? >>

 

How about Apple Moyle? It is basically a type of rice pudding with apples in

it. The recipe is in "Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books".

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:37:16 -0400

From: marilyn traber <margali at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: SC - apples

 

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:

> << or, depending on ingredient proportion and emphasis, applesauce

> thickened with rice flour, and sometimes eggs.  >>

> This is in fact the version I use. Basically it's a baked custard with

> lots of apple sauce

> Ras

 

Take a large can of pears in syrup, drain and reserve the heavy syrup.

Give the pears a whirl in a blender, adding just enough juice to make it

pearsauce. Use in place of the pumpkin in a pie recipe. Pour a puddle of

whole cream on the surface when it is about half done.

 

margali

 

 

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:07:06 -0400 (EDT)

From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Honey Apples

 

Steve Geppert <emster at alaska.net> writes:

> Looking for something to do with a bag of "older" apples I had on the

...

> I couldn't seem to find anything similar. Is this something that could

> be period?  It would be a great traveling dish as it can be served

 

Well, The Domestroi has a listing for "Kirzamin apples" (not sure of

the first word) which was simply apples (whole) put in a container with

honey on them until the apples became soft (i think... i'm going from

memory here) There were almost certainly some acetic fermentaion that

went on inside the apples before th osmatic pressure of the honey made

a preserved fruit.... so we have apples, honey, and most likely

vineger... but no cooking...  There were several other recipies for

cooking fruit with the addition of honey... i'll try to remember and

look to see if vinegar was used in any of them..

 

In Service to the People of the Society,

Filip of the Marche

 

 

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:49:46 EST

From: melc2newton at juno.com (Michael P Newton)

Subject: Re: SC - Honey Apples

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:00:44 -0800 Steve Geppert <emster at alaska.net> writes:

>Looking for something to do with a bag of "older" apples I had on the

>counter, I stumbled on a Honey Apple recipe in my Joy of Cooking.  The

>recipe is simply honey, vinegar brought to a boil.  The apples are pared

>and thinly sliced and dropped into the mixture and removed when

>transparent. As my medieval cooking library is in its birthing stages,

>I couldn't seem to find anything similar. Is this something that could

>be period?  It would be a great traveling dish as it can be served

>chilled or hot.  It was also a hit with my children, none left on the

>table after dinner!

>Lady Clare

>(settling in for the long Alaskan winter, snow on the ground already!)

 

I know I'm answering an old message, but I was clearing out my inbox and

this reminded me of a couple of recipes I came across in _The Domostroi_.

 

Kuzmin apples. Take whole apples, not bruised, nor wormeated. Place them

on racks, one layer per rack. Pile the racks on top of one another, then

pour three measures of honey syrup over all.

 

Ripe Apples and quinces. Put ripe apples and quinces which are clean and

unbruised in crates inside small buckets, five quinces per apple. arrange

them with your hands. Pour four measures of honey syrup over them. When

you cover the bucket, leave space for a funnel so that air can escape as

the mixture ferments.

 

I have no idea if this is anywhere close to what Lady Clare was looking

for, but there it is.

Lady Beatrix of Tanet

 

 

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:15:16 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Grape juice inquiry

 

>Now, would somebody give me a comercial source for apples that are a period

>type, grown without pesticides or commercial fertilizer.

 

There is a firm called AppleSource--I don't know if they are on the web

yet. They sell a wide variety of apples, including, I am fairly sure, some

of the period ones, by mail.

 

Alternatively you can get trees from quite a lot of nurseries--you will

find an article on that subject in the _Miscellany_. My problem is that I

keep moving, and leaving my trees behind. Hopefully, since things grow fast

here, I will at least get to enjoy the greengage plum I planted when we

moved.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:04:12 EST

From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>

Subject: SC - Apples

 

liontamr at ptd.net writes:

 

<< Small, round, red and hard (not to mention hardy).  Less sweet (see large

amounts of sugar added to them for preservation). As for substitutes, I'd go

for the bags of cooking macs, ida reds or some such, which are smaller, have

better flavor than the enormous ones, and more closely mimic a period sized

apple.  >>

 

Pippins are the fruit grown from an apple tree grown from an apple seed as

opposed to those grown from sports or other grafted stock.  They are, indeed,

smaller and less sweet than most currently available commercial so-called

apples.

 

I would suggest adding to your list of varieties that might be tried

Northern Spyes or, if possible, crab apples specifically grown for juice if you want to come closest to a period-like flavor.  Almost all commercial varieties of apple have been bred to make the taste less complex, less acidic, sweeter

and unobjectionable to the majority of people, thereby producing insipid,

flavorless ghosts of good tasting apples.  And there are varieties of apples

still grown now that were grown during the middle ages.  These would of course

be the best to use and though not generally found for sale commercially are

readily available as saplings from some specialty plant growers.

 

If buying commercially, most reputable supermarkets will allow you to taste

test your apple before buying it.  Look for a balance between acid and sweet,

tangy, pineapple, strawberry, clove taste with a complex variety of flavors

underneath, crispness, refreshing and lingering finish.

 

If you have a piece of land and web access, a search engine of apple should

get you started in your search for period apple trees. :-)

 

Ras

 

 

Date: 16 Jan 1998 08:35:01 -0800

From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Fruits

 

<snip>- I read or was told by someone (wish I could remember) that Pippins

referred to a specific type of apple which is no longer available. Anyone

know if this is true? If so, what is the best <snip>

 

I am not sure about the rest, but Pippins are still sometimes available in the

grocery store, tho they seem to be being pushed out by Fujis and Braeburns

that are bigger.

- -brid

 

 

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:15:04 -0500

From: Margritte <margritt at mindspring.com>

Subject: SC - A Paste of Pippins

 

Consider the following two recipes:

 

To make Paste of Pippins, the Geneva fashion, some with leaves, some like

Plums, with stalks and stones in them.

Take your Pippins, and pare them and cut them in quarters: then boil them

in faire water till they be tender; then straine them and dry the pulp upon

a chafindish of coales: then weigh it, and take as much sugar as it

weigheth, and boile it to Manus Christi, and put them together: then

fashion them upon a Pieplate and put it into an Oven being very sleightly

heat: the next Morning you may turne it, and put them off the plates upon

sheets of Paper upon a hurdle, and so put them in an Oven of like heat, and

there let them remain foure or five dayes, puting every day a Chafindish of

coales into the Oven: and when they be thorow dry you may box them, and

keepe them all the yeare.

A Closet for Ladies and Gentlewomen or The Art of preserving, conserving

and candying, printed for Arthur Johnson, 1608.

 

To make Paste of Pippins like leaves, and some like Plums, with their

stones, and Stalks in them.

Take Pippins pared and cored, and cut in pieces, and boiled tender, so

strain them, and take as much Sugar as the Pulp doth weigh, and boil it to

a Candy height with as much Rose-water and fair water as will melt it, then

put the pulp into the hot sugar, and let it boil until it be as thick as

Marmalet, then fashion it on a Pyeplate, like Oaken leaves, and some like

half Plums, the next day close the half Plums together; and if you please

you may put the stones and stalks in them, and dry them in an Oven, and if

you will have them look green, make the paste with Pippins are green, and

if you would have them look red, put a little Conserves of Barberries in

the Paste, and if you will keep any of it all the year, you must make it as

thin as Tart stuff, and put it into Gallipots.

 

A Queen's Delight or The Art of Preserving, Conserving and Candying,

printed for Nathaniel Brook, 1654. Both of these books are available on

microfilm, in the "English Books: 1641-1700" series.

 

OK, here come the questions  :-)

 

- - Do I use cheesecloth to strain the apples?

- - Should they fall apart (applesauce consistency)?

- - The first recipe calls for drying the pulp before weighing it. How dry

should it be? Surely not completely...

- - I could understand if it was oak leaves and acorns, but _plums_!?? Why

plums?

- - When the half plums are put together, are you using real stalks and

stones from plums, or ones made of marzipan, or what?

- - Just how thin is tart stuff?

- - What were gallipots usually made of?

- - Has anyone seen recipes elsewhere for similar confections (especially

ones mentioning oak leaves)?

 

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

- -Margritte

 

 

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:48:51 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Fruits

 

At 8:35 AM -0800 1/16/98, Marisa Herzog wrote:

 

>I am not sure about the rest, but Pippins are still sometimes available in the

>grocery store, tho they seem to be being pushed out by Fujis and Braeburns

>that are bigger.

>-brid

 

There are several varieties known as "pippen": Cox's Orange Pippen is a

famous variety from (I think) the 18th century.  Newtown Pippen is a

variety they sell around here, sometimes under its full name and sometimes

just as Pippen.  It is a hard medium-sized green apple, a little tart, good

both for pies and for eating out of hand.  How close it is to a period

pippen I don't know.

 

Southmeadow Fruit Gardens, 2363 Tilbury Place, Birmingham, Michigan 48009,

as of several years ago, had an enormous collection of old fruit varieties,

with a catalogue which cost $5 or $10 and was very much worth it as

information about old varieties.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:02:24 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - A Paste of Pippins

 

Margritte quoted a couple of recipes for Paste of Pippens:

>To make Paste of Pippins like leaves, and some like Plums, with their

>stones, and Stalks in them.

>Take Pippins pared and cored, and cut in pieces, and boiled tender, so

>strain them, and take as much Sugar as the Pulp doth weigh, and boil it to

>a Candy height with as much Rose-water and fair water as will melt it, then

>put the pulp into the hot sugar, and let it boil until it be as thick as

>Marmalet, ...

 

I am fairly sure that marmelade (which, I believe, comes from a Portugese

word meaning quince) meant at this time not the citrus jam we now use the

word for but instead meant quince paste.  My sister Johanna used to make

quince paste out of a modern recipe in a book by (I think) Elizabeth David;

it came out as a stiff brown paste of a similar consistancy to fudge or to

medieval gingerbread, if you have made that. I think there is a recipe for

marmelade or quince paste in Hugh Platt's _Delights for Ladies_ (160?) that

would give you another recipe to compare, quinces being closely related to

apples; I can hunt up the recipe and type it in if you would like.

 

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:53:22 -0600 (CST)

From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)

Subject: SC - Re: A Paste of Pippins

 

Greetings. One line of Elizabeth's post drew my attention:

 

>I am fairly sure that marmelade (which, I believe, comes from a

>Portugese word meaning quince) meant at this time not the citrus jam

>we now use the word for but instead meant quince paste.

 

I went hunting through a few cookery books and found that, indeed, most

of the pre-1600 ones, when titled "marmelat" or some spelling variant,

used only quinces.  What was bothering me was that only yesterday I had

run across a number of marmelades made with fruit _other_ than quinces,

though those were in the late 1600s.  So, somewhere along the way, the

main ingredient changed.  I did find, however, in Thomas Dawson's 1597

_The Second Part of the Good Hus-wives Jewell_, "To make drie Marmelet

of Peches".  So, the transformation from quince-only to other fruit was

apparantly already underway.  From the recipe, however, this is a

fruit-leathery-paste type of thing that can be "printed" with a mould,

not the gloppy consistency of marmalade that we are used to.

 

Alys Katharine

 

 

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:09:21 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jeff Berry <nexus at panix.com>

Subject: SC - Between two dishes ...

 

A short while ago I did a small feast here in Whyt Whey

and one of the recipes I used was "To Stew Apples" from

Digbie. Though the recipe was pretty straightforward, the

penultimate line was less so.

"You stew these between two dishes."

 

I am not quite certain what to make of this.   On the one hand,

might it be a bain-Marie or double boiler?  On the other, could

it be simply a covered pot?

 

At any rate, the whole recipe is included below.

 

TO STEW APPLES

"Pare them and cut them into slices. Stew them with Wine and Water

as the Pears, and season them in like manner with Spice.  Towards the

end sweeten them with Sugar, breaking them into Pap by stirring them.  When

you are ready to take them off, put in good store of fresh-butter and

incorporate it well with them, by stirring them together.  You stew

these between two dishes.  The quickest Apples are the best."

 

Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne

 

PS. For those who are interested, the entire menu as well as the article

series related to it are on my cooking site at

http://www.panix.com/~nexus/cooking - and yes, that is a more or less

blatant plug:-)

 

 

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:29:48 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Between two dishes ...

 

> a short while ago I did a small feast here in Whyt Whey

> and one of the recipes I used was "To Stew Apples" from

> Digbie.  Though the recipe was pretty straightforward, the

> penultimate line was less so.

> "You stew these between two dishes."

> I am not quite certain what to make of this.   On the one hand,

> might it be a bain-Marie or double boiler?  On the other, could

> it be simply a covered pot?

 

That sounds like a reference to a chawfer or chafing dish, which is

essentially a small brazier of charcoal, in which sits a roughly

similarly-sized inner cooking plate, which can be used covered or

uncovered. Cooking between two dishes would most likely be using this

type of setup.

 

Adamantius

 

> Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne

 

 

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:27:59 -0700

From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Between two dishes ...

 

I would interpret this to mean a covered dish, as a bain marie is not

between two dishes, but on top of two dishes :). The results would be very

different, as the former would conserve moisture and the later would not.

 

good luck!

- --Anne-Marie

 

 

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:51:05 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Apple Butter Update

 

> Can anyone out there spare me the time to tell me anything about the

> history of Apple Butter?

> Micaylah

 

There is a recipe for Appulmoy in The Forme of Cury, which I have seen

adapted as applesauce.  It uses honey as sweetener rather than the sugar

called for in modern recipes.

 

Since the chief difference between modern applesauce and modern apple butter

is the amount of sugar used, being heavy handed with the honey might get you

apple butter.

 

I haven't tried either recipe, so I can't tell you what will happen.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 07:49:38 -0600

From: upsxdls at okway.okstate.edu

Subject: Re[2]: SC - Apple Butter Question

 

   My recipe for any fruit butter - apple, pear, peach, apricot, etc.

 

   Apple (I use Red Delicious or Winesap, they mush easier) Butter,

   Peel and core apples.  Place in a heavy pan with just enough water to cover

   the bottom of the pan.  Cover and simmer until fruit softens.  Mash with

   potato masher.  Measure mashed fruit.  Add an equal amount of sugar.  Cook

   over low heat, stirring occasionally.  If I want to add spices, I usually

   use whole cinnamon sticks and cloves wrapped in a cheesecloth bag.  If you

   use ground spices, it will turn the mixture dark.

 

   Pear is done the same way, but ginger is the usual spice.  Peaches &

   apricots do not have to be peeled, but should be run through a food mill to

   remove the skins before measuring.  I don't add spices to the peach or

   apricot butters.  They're too wonderful all by themselves!

 

   Leanna McLaren of Sparrowhaven

 

 

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:17:18 EDT

From: Kallyr at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - cider apples

 

Golden Russet is a period cider apple which is still grown and highly

regarded. Another is Ashmead's Kernel (also russeted) which was introduced in

the 1700's as a cider apple.  (Russets are brownish gold rough spots on the

skin of apples.)

 

Various modern pippins are descendants of pippins highly regarded as cider

apples, such as the Ribston Pippin (also know as Essex Pippin, Glory of York)

considered to have originated in Yorkshire, England around 1700.

 

Information from Fruit, Nut and Berry Inventory, Second Edition by Kent Whealy

(Decorah, Iowa: Seed Saver Publications, 1993).

 

~~Minna Gantz/ Sherry <KALLYR at AOL.COM>

 

 

Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:47:15 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: RE: SC - cider apples

 

At 2:27 PM +0100 6/29/98, Yeldham, Caroline S wrote:

>There is a place that 'stores' all the old apple varieties it can, but I

>don't have details; I would suggest contacting someone like Kew Gardens

>(which has a seed library) or the Royal Horticultural Society.  The

>Henry Doubleday Research Society (?) might be able to help too.

 

In the USA, Southmeadow Fruit Gardens (2363 Tilbury Place, Birmingham,

Michigan 48009) sells a huge variety of old apples and other fruits, and

has a very knowlegable and informative catalogue which cost $10 as of a few

years ago.  Clearly one of the people who runs the place is an enthusiast.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook (gradually catching up on the list)

 

 

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:48:37 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - sc-pears and rambling

 

uther at lcc.net writes:

<< What kind of apples and pears should I use to get the kind of results the

medieval cook would have gotten?  Hopefully something I can find at a supermarket in East Texas? >>

 

Apples are problematical since every individual seed produces a new variety of

apple. The best thing to use , IMO, would be an apple that has FLAVOR. Most

modern apples sold at the supermarket and specifically bred with Everyman in

mind. This means that they are  almost exclusively tasteless odorless and

without distinctive character. :-(

 

Avoid apples that have the word 'Delicious' in their varietal name. They are,

without a single exception,  NOT delicious and have all the characteristics

that the apple industry says Everyman desires. They are also mealy and

oftentimes bitter or coyingly sweet.

 

There are apple varieties that are  period, such as Pippins, but they are

rarely available on the commercial level. For great taste and complexity of

lavor I wold personally recommend Northern Spys or Granny Smiths. Northern

Spys have a flavor that is reminiscent of tangy pineapple, strawberries and

citrus. They are nicely balanced between sweet and sour and hold up there

shape during the baking process. They are crisp and juicy when raw if they

have not been stored for a lengthy period of time.

 

Granny Smiths are the second variety I would choose if period varieties or

Spys are unavailable. They also have some complexity in flavor although not

nearly as much as Spys ro the period varieties. They also have a nice balance

between sweet and sour, are not mealy and have a crisp texture when eaten raw

and a refreshing finish when eaten raw or cooked.

 

Pears, for the most part have been little disturbed by the hand of modern man.

The best cooking varieties are hard and crisp. These qualities endear them to

commercial shippers so a good portion of the pears available in the supermarket

are varieties which were also grown in period. Look for pears that are hard

when selecting cooking pears. The name may contain terms like 'winter' or

'fall' pears. Or ask your grocer which pear is ideal for cooking.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:18:58 +1000 (EST)

From: The Cheshire Cat <sianan at geocities.com>

Subject: SC - Apple Mousse

 

Hannah Thomas wrote:

> Does anyone have any good recipes for apples?  There are a thousand on

> our trees, and I can only make so much apple sauce!  These appear to be

> baking apples (they don't taste that good when you eat them plain).

 

Try this:

 

Apple Mousse:

 

'A Prpoer Newe Book of Cokerye'

 

To make Apple Moyse:  Take a dozen apples and ether roaste or boyle them

and drawe them thorowe a streyner, and the yolkes of three or foure egges

withal, and, as ye stryne them, temper them wyth three or foure sponefull

of damaske water yf ye wyll, than take and season it wyth suger and halfe a

dysche of swete butter, and boyle them upon a chaffyngdysche in a platter,

and caste byskettes or synamon and gynger upon them and so serve them forth.

 

My Redaction:

 

700g apples

45ml water

2 egg yolks

30ml rosewater

2 Tbs sugar

25g butter

ground ginger and cinnamon to finish

 

Peel, core and slice the apples, and stew them with the water until soft in

a heavy, covered saucepan.  Make the apples into a smooth puree by pressing

it through a sieve or using a blender.  Return the puree to the saucepan,

stir in the egg yolk beaten with the rosewater, then the sugar and the

butter and slowly heat to boiling point stirring continuously.  Pour the

puree into a dish and allow to cool.  To finish, sprinkle with a little

ground ginger and cinnamon.

 

- -Sianan

Marina Denton

 

 

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:37:04 PDT

From: "pat fee" <lcatherinemc at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Scottish Dessert

 

>From: "Brian L. Rygg or Laura Barbee-Rygg" <rygbee at montana.com>

> > Yes I have recipes for Scotts shortbread(cookie like) a fruit puding,

> > and apples baked with honey, currents  and wiskey(possibly oop)

> > Lady Katherine McGuire

>Recipes, please.

>Raoghnailt

>Stan Wyrm, Artemisia

>rygbee at montana.com

 

This is the "modern " version, in modern english.  If you want the

original, I can get it but not this week.  I expect my cook book back

sometime next week.

 

   Apples baked in Scotch

 

four to six good sized apples.

1 large hand-full currents (1 cup aprox.)

1/2 cup good honey (I use wild flower)

Enough Scotch to cover the currents when placed in a small bowl.

1/2 cup of chopped nuts of your choice.  Hazelnuts, toasted work well.

Soak the currents in the Scotch for at least 12 hours. Drain the currents

and set aside.  Warm the honey and add the remaining Scotch from the

currents. Gently simmer the honey and scotch until it thickens to a heavy

syrup consistency.

Cut small slice off the top of the apples, core.

Mix 1/2 the nuts and the currents.  Stuff the apples with this mixture

Place in an iron baking dish (this is what the original calles for) just

large enough to hold the apples touching each other.  Pour the syrup over

the apples, making sure that some goes over the stuffing and wetting it.

Bake for one hour at 350 degrees.  The first part of the hour cover the

apples. After this, remove the cover and sprinkle the apples with the

remaining nuts.

 

This can be served on rounds of pound cake or sweet biscuits.

 

Lady Katherine McGuire

 

 

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:28:17 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears

 

>       Just wondering what kind of apples we find in the grocery store

>would be closest to a period apple.

>       And while I am asking, what about pears too?

 

Funny you should ask... We are planting an orchard and are including a few

varieties that date back to the SCA period!

 

For Apples, all of the grocery-store varieties are modern.  The variety

"Court Pendu Plat" (or "Corps Pendu")  is supposed to date from at least

the 1590's and may actually be derived from the old Roman variety called

Sementinum... according to one of the catalogs.  I think at least one

reference claimed that "White Winter Pearmain" was originally a 13th

century variety.   And Frank Browning mentions in his book "Apples,"  that

the rootstock variety now know as "M9" is actually derived from the

"Paradise" apple that was popular from the 13th century; it was supposed to

be a small yellow apple.

 

To approximate medieval culinary apples, you would need to find an orchard

growing the old vintage varieties.  Or, you could use crabapples - I

recommend the Whitney Crab; small yellow fruit with red stripes, sweet and

tangy fresh.  About the closest thing in the grocery store, if they have a

really good selection, would be a Pippin.

 

For pears, it's a little easier:  The variety known as Bartlett in America

is called "Williams Bon Chretien" in England and "Bon Chretien" in France,

and it supposedly is very ancient, possibly late medieval or Early Modern.

(It was brought to England in about 1700 by a guy named WiIliams, but it

had apparently been growing in France for a very long time.)

 

"Apples, the story of the fruit of temptation" by Frank Browning, North

Point Press, 1998. ISBN 0-86547-579-2.  Has a great discussion of the

origin and history of apples.

 

Get the Sonoma Antique Apple Nursery catalog for descriptions of vintage

varieties: www.applenursery.com

 

 

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:52:19 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears

 

At 1:45 PM -0700 10/27/99, Schumacher, Deborah (AZ15) wrote:

>       Just wondering what kind of apples we find in the grocery store

>would be closest to a period apple.

>       And while I am asking, what about pears too?

 

You can find what I was able to discover on this subject many years

ago webbed at:

 

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/trees.html

 

David Friedman

 

 

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:36:25 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears

 

At 5:28 PM -0700 10/27/99, Catherine Keegan wrote:

>For Apples, all of the grocery-store varieties are modern.

 

Depends on the grocery store. It used to be the case that stores

around Pennsic cometimes carried Summer Rambo (Rambeau d'ete), which

is a period or perhaps early 17th c. variety. And lady apples, which

are supposed to be period, occasionally show up in grocery stores.

 

>The variety

>"Court Pendu Plat" (or "Corps Pendu")  is supposed to date from at least

>the 1590's and may actually be derived from the old Roman variety called

>Sementinum... according to one of the catalogs.  I think at least one

>reference claimed that "White Winter Pearmain" was originally a 13th

>century variety.   And Frank Browning mentions in his book "Apples,"  that

>the rootstock variety now know as "M9" is actually derived from the

>"Paradise" apple that was popular from the 13th century; it was supposed to

>be a small yellow apple.

 

My list from the Miscellany article:

 

Calville Blanc D'Hiver (1627)   Grosse Mignonne (1667)

Court Pendu Plat (16th century-possibly Roman)

Devonshire Quarendon (1690)     Nectarine

Drap d'Or (=Coe's Golden Drop?) Early Violet (1659)

Lady Apple (1628)

Old Nonpareil                                                     Pears

Pomme Royale                     Buerre Gris (1608)

Reinette Franche                        Rousselet de Reims (1688)

Roxbury Russett (Early 17th century)    Bartlett (Williams Bon Chretien)

Scarlet Crofton                         "of ancient origin"-may or may

Sops of Wine

not be pre-1600.

Summer Rambo (16th century)

Winter Pearmain Plums

Fenouilette Gris        Green Gage (Reine Claude)

Golden Reinette Prune d'Agen

 

>To approximate medieval culinary apples, you would need to find an orchard

>growing the old vintage varieties.

 

Or grow your own--there are a number of nurseries that sell the old varieties.

 

David Friedman

 

 

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:35:06 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears

 

Most of Cariadoc's list appear to be 17th century.  Winter Pearmain might

be a medieval variety, or a descendant of one, according to some research

I have read.  Lady is dated to 1600 and therefore might squeak under the

wire. Corps Pendu is in.  I think I remember seeing a reference to

Fenouillette Gris, or something similar, being medieval.

 

But some of these are dated much later in the Sonoma Antique Apple

catalog:

 

Coe's Golden Drop - 1842

 

Sops of Wine - 1832

 

I do not, unfortunately, have much information about the French

varieties... and am looking for references to same.  Summer Rambo

(Rambour Franc) is listed in the SAA catalog as dating to "17??",

whatever THAT means.

 

If you can actually get the Lady apple, that is perhaps your best bet.

It is a small fruit, very pretty, not too sweet, somewhat acid, and

reportedly keeps all winter.  I have tasted it, but not cooked with it,

but suspect it would do well.

 

If you can wait about three years, you can order trees on dwarf rootstock

and grow your own:

 

www.applenursery.com

 

bearcreeknursery.com (not up yet but you can email them for a catalog)

 

Colin

 

p.s. On a slightly different tack, Raintree nursery has Medlars, another

period fruit that does not appear in groceries out here.  (360) 496-6400

for catalog.

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:21:31 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Marmalade

 

tori at panix.com writes:

<< Also

lady apples, which, if I recall, is a reasonable facsimile of medieval

apples, neh? >>

 

Actually it is not a reasonable facsimile. Lady Apples are a medieval variety

that has survived. Every apple seed grows into a new variety of apple, only

by grafting stock from known varieties can a particular variety continue on.

Technically, every Lady Apple is a piece of the original Lady Apple. :-)

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:00:10 -0800

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Lady apples source

 

The only Spitzenberg I can find information for is the variety "Esopus

Spitzenberg." Thomas Jefferson's favorite.  "USA; arose with the "low

Dutch" at Esopus, Ulster Co, New York.  Known before 1790."  Morgan &

Richards, "The Book of Apples," 1993.  Their material is heavily slanted to

English & American varieties, however, so if this was derived from an

earlier Dutch or German variety it might not be covered in their

descriptions.

 

Morgan & Richards also has the following to say about the other varieties:

 

Summer Rambo - "Rambo d'Ete" - synonym of Rambour Franc.  "Believed this

arose near the village of Rambure, near Abbeville, Picardy."  [Remember

"The Advocate?"  ;-> ] " 'De Rambure' recorded 1535 by botanist Jean de la

Ruelle; known in England 1665."

 

Sops in Wine - "UK; many varieties of this name in literature.  [fruit in

Brogdale collection] does not match descriptions of variety recorded

1831..."   Do you have an earlier attribution for this cultivar?

 

Fameuse - "Canada (prob).  Seed poss brought from France, planted c1730 at

Chimney Point nr Lake Champlain between Vermont and New York State.  Syns

many." This doesn't sound like a period variety!

 

Api - synonym Lady Apple - "France; found in ancient Forest of Api,

Brittany, according to French botanist Merlet.  Recorded 1628 by Le

Lectier. Recorded England 1676 by Worlidge.  Syns numerous.  Lady Apple of

North America.  Not the reputedly Roman Appia of c16th, according to French

and Italian authorities."

 

The best-documented "period" apple would appear to be Court Pendu Plat:

"described 1613 by Bauhin, but believed older.  Known Court Pendu Rouge in

France. History much confused with Court Pendu Gris.  Syns numerous;

include Wise Apple because flowers late and escapes spring frosts.  Claimed

Roman origin, but Lery considered Court Pendu Gris had ancient

associations. 'Capendu,' syn Court Pendu Gris appeared in accounts of

Normany abbeys in C15th and in 1420 was on sale Rouen market.  By c16th

grown all over France, also Italy, Switzerland.  Some claimed it was Roman

and Cestiana of Pliny.  Estienne named it Court Pendu in 1540, because it

was 'short hanged' ie short stalk.  'Capenda' known to Parkinson in 1629;

Court Pendu Plat known England by c18th."

 

There is also the original Old Pearmain, which may or may not be the

variety mentioned in both England and France ca. 1200.  You would probably

have to get scion wood from the Brogdale Trust for this one.

 

Also there is 'Blanc Dur,' which again may or may not be the same as the

'Blandurel' introduced to England by Queen Eleanor in 1280.  I would love

to get a couple of these...

 

Colin

 

 

Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 09:45:10 -0800

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - OT:  Did anyone save the posts about apple varieties?

 

>Silly me accidentally deleted the posts from about a month ago

>that discussed period or almost period varieties of apples.  We

>are looking to start an orchard this coming growing season, and I

>didn't want to be stuck with the mealy "Red Delicious" or bland

>"Golden Delicious" that the local nursery has for sale.

 

Since the last round of discussion, I have done a little more reading on

this subject. Turns out that the Paradise apple, frequently referenced in

medieval gardens, can still be grown today.  It is used as a dwarfing

rootstock, called "M.9" or Malling 9.  You can get it as a rootstock

(cheap!) for grafting purposes from several mail-order nurseries.   Try

Cummins Nursery, http://www.dabney.com/cumminsnursery

Jim Cummins can give you information about the Paradise apple and how to

grow it.

 

Note that there is also a modern variety called "Paradise" that is not the

same as the medieval apple.

 

You certainly don't have to be stuck with the wretched modern Delicious -

even the Home Despot stores out here (CA) carry many other cultivars.  I

just got Whitney Crab and Gravenstein from there.  You should consider

planting a couple of crabs; they will be similar to the "wild" apple-crabs

that were also used in the MA.

 

Have fun!

 

Colin

 

 

Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:52:54 -0500

From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT at infoblvd.net>

Subject: Re: SC - OT:  Did anyone save the posts about apple varieties?

 

   I live in apple country.  If you're getting mealy Red Delicious, they're

overripe. Those that have been stored too long may also look really

wonderfully dark red, and be rotten in the center.

   Bland Golden Delicious are also overripe.  When reasonably fresh they

have a good strong flavor.

   Growing location may also make a difference.  Apples need so many days

of properly cold temperature to set fruit properly, specific to each

variety. A tree growing on the fringe of it's range will not have as good

fruit. Apples can be grown a long ways south if they're an adapted variety,

and only certain varieties will bear good fruit in the colder areas.

   I suggest doing some research first.  The NYS Agricultural Experiment

Station at Geneva, NY has considerable information, and so do many nursery

catalogs. Miller Nurseries in Canandaigua, NY, specializes in antique

varieties, and there is quite a bit of information just in their free

catalog.

   There is also an old set of books entitled "The Apples of New York",

rich in historical information and storage charactistics of apples, which

was written when people kept their own in cellars.

 

Diane S.

 

 

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:22:03 -0500

From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider

 

CBlackwill at aol.com wrote:

> Does

> anyone have any information of which particular family of apples would be

> most appropriate for a "period style" cider?

 

Well, one of my cider books says "In England, the most esteemed cider apple in

the seventeenth century was the Red Streak, which gave 'the richest and most

vinous liquor.'  Other favorites were the Bromesbury Crab, the Red & White Must

apples, the Harvey, the Pearmain, the Foxwhelp, and the Gennet-Moyle."

_Cider: Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider_  by Annie Proulx & Lew

Nichols; 2nd ed. p 92.

(the first edition is slightly better than the 2nd)

 

If you can get your hands on them, Kingston Black is a good one-apple cider

apple, but otherwise I suggest you use a blend of apple types.  Definitely throw

in a few crab apples for tannins if what you have available is mostly dessert

apples. Red Delicious makes a good blending base, with lots of aromatics, but

requires plenty of more flavorful varieties to give the cider character.  I'm

told that Golden Russet is an excellent cider apple, both sweet and tart with a

nice aroma.  The Roxbury Russet was developed in Massachusetts in 1649, and is

listed as a superior cider apple.  Winesaps are good blended with dessert apples

such as the delicious.

 

I have lots more info on apple varieties if you are interested, but sadly not

much on which ones were developed when.

 

- -Magdalena

 

 

Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:47:08 EDT

From: allilyn at juno.com

Subject: Re: SC - an interesting challenge...and its even about  medieval food! :)

 

Chiquart's almond applesauce--vegan

 

73. Again, emplumeus of apples: to give understanding to him who will

make it, take good barberine apples according to the quantity of it which

one wants to make and then pare them well and properly and cut them into

fair gold or silver dishes; and let him have a fair, good, and clean

earthen pot, and let him put in fair clean water and put to boil over

fair and clear coals and put his apples to boil therein. And let him

arrange that he has a great quantity of good sweet almonds according to

the quantity of apples which he has put to cook, and let him blanch,

clean, and wash them very well and put them to be brayed in a mortar

which does not smell at all of garlic, and let him bray them very well

and moisten them with the broth in which the said apples are cooking; and

when the said apples are cooked enough draw them out onto fair and clean

boards, and let him strain the almonds with this water and make milk

which is good and thick, and put it back to boil on clear and clean coals

without smoke, and a very little salt. And while it boils let him chop

his said apples very small with a little clean knife and then, being

chopped, let him put them into his milk, and put in a great deal of sugar

according to the amount that there is of the said emplumeus of apples;

and then, when the doctor asks for it, put it in fair bowls or pans of

gold or silver.

 

Regards,

Allison,     allilyn at juno.com

 

 

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:28:37 EDT

From: Seton1355 at aol.com

Subject: SC - OOP   about apples

 

I got this information from Tip=World and thought I would pass it along.    

Phillipa

 

Although we now have over 300 varieties of apple in the world, only about 30

of them are well known, and not even all of these are available in the United

States. In the next few tips, you will find a helpful description (in

alphabetical order) of the 15 most popular

varieties, followed by suggestions of the most suitable ways for using them.

If you are buying apples to be eaten within a week, look for those with

unbruised and unbroken flesh and with no sign of insect damage. They don't

need special storage--the fruit bowl on the counter will do just fine,

providing you with your own real-life still life. If you prefer a chilled

apple, store them in the refrigerator in a plastic bag.

 

The Braeburn apple is a beautiful red dessert apple from New Zealand.

Sometimes in grocery stores, the stickers on them will simply say "New

Zealand," but be sure to distinguish it from the New Zealand Fuji apple,

which is slightly more acidic.

 

The Cortland is a cross between the McIntosh and the Ben Davis apples. It was

developed around 1915 in upstate New York. It, too, is a crisp, red-skinned

apple, yet it works for just about everything--fresh, cooked, baked, or

frozen.

 

The Egremont Russet, often called simply "Russet," is named for its golden

russetted skin. Its scent is nutty, and its flesh has a fine, hard texture.

It is one of the best eating apples, but it's also excellent in pies and

tarts.

 

The Empire is a light-textured and juicy American red dessert apple. Its

flesh is crisp and pale green.

 

The Fuji is also from New Zealand, but its flesh is crisper, juicier, and

more aromatic than that of the Braeburn. It makes a wonderful snacking or

dessert apple. Its skin is red with patches of yellow.

The Golden Delicious has been the best all-purpose apple since its discovery

in West Virginia in 1914. It is sometimes called simply the Yellow Delicious.

 

The Granny Smith has long been considered a dessert apple, because its hard,

crisp flesh retains its shape during cooking, making it ideal for main

dishes. The skin is tough, and it is the brightest green of all apples.

 

The Greening was developed in Green's End, Rhode Island, at the turn of the

18th century. It is a tart, yellow-green skinned apple used mainly for pies

and cooking.

 

The Ida-red is one you see everywhere in the fall. Why? Probably because it

is easy to grow. But to tell the truth, it's a dull apple--dull for munching

into, dull for cooking with. Keep shopping.

 

The Jonathan is another good all-round variety. It has bright red skin

streaked with orange and a creamy white flesh, sometimes with little bits of

red in it. It is juicy, slightly tart, and suitable for both snacking and

baking.

The McIntosh, another highly popular apple, was developed in Canada. With

its flavorful, aromatic white, juicy, and crispy flesh, it is good both on

its own or in desserts.

 

The Opalescent, which arrives on the market in mid-September, is another

bright red apple with a few small green spots. It is crisp and juicy, and

good all by itself.

 

The Red Delicious generally looks better than it tastes. While it does have a

refreshing tartness, its skin is tough, and its flesh is crumbly, and

sometimes it makes you say, "I can't swallow this." But if you come across a

batch of Red Delicious apples that aren't too mealy, snag 'em up!

 

The Rome Beauty is without a doubt America's favorite baking apple. It's a

large, round, red apple that's not at all good fresh but keeps its shape and

flavor when cooked. In addition, it absorbs flavors like a sponge and so is

especially good in spicy pies and cakes.

 

The Winesap lives up to its excellent name. It has a shiny, deep red skin,

tinged with yellow. It's juicy and both sweet and tart, making it equally

good as a munching apple and a baking apple.

Apples not only provided a vital source of food and drink, they were also an

invaluable preservative for our pioneer ancestors' food and supplies. Apples

were even used medicinally as anesthetics, antiseptics, sedatives, and

stimulants.

 

Below are a few tips for using apples that our ancestors knew well:

 

An apple in your bag of potatoes will help keep the potatoes from sprouting.

 

An apple in your brown sugar container will help to keep the sugar moist.

 

An apple in your cookie jar will help to keep the cookies moist.

 

Add lemon juice to an apple recipe if the apples you are using lack tartness

or need flavor.

 

If you cannot brush your teeth after a meal, eat an apple. Eating a raw apple

will cleanse your mouth of more than 95 percent of bacteria that cause tooth

decay.

 

 

Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:05:49 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Apple butter

 

The Neapolitan recipe collection has a recipe for applesauce: cooked,

ground apples are mixed with almond milk, rosewater, and sugar, and

cooked until thick.  Scully says it is a parallel recipe to one in the

Catalan sources.  I looked at the recipe for "Pomada" in Nola, and it is

similar, except that the sauce is cooked with whole cinnamon, cloves,

and peeled gingerroot which have been soaked in rosewater, and the

almond milk is made with chicken broth.  (you could make a Lenten

version with water, if you preferred).  Since the sauce is apparently

cooked without applepeels, and the dominant spice is ginger, not

cinnamon, I am not sure how much it would taste like modern apple

butter.

 

Source: Ruperto de Nola, _Libro de Guisados_ (Spanish, 1529)

Translation: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)

 

POMADA -- Applesauce

 

        Take apples which are sour and sweet; and quarter each of them; and

prepare them; and remove the core and then put them in cold water and if they

are very sour give them a boil and then take peeled almonds and grind them

well; and put the apples in the mortar and grind them together with the

almonds very vigorously and when they are well ground dissolve it all with

good chicken broth and strain it all through a woolen cloth ; and put it all in

the pot in which it must cook; and take ginger which is fine; peel off the skin

until it is white and make of it little pieces the size of half a finger; and put them to soak overnight in good rosewater until the morning; then take whole

cinnamon; and tie it with a thread jointly with cloves and scald them with hot

broth and when the cloves and the cinnamon are scalded put the pot on the

fire with the apples; and put a good quantity of sugar in it and when it is more

than half cooked take the soaked ginger and the cloves; and the cinnamon;

and put them all in the pot and if it does not taste enough of ginger put in a

little which is ground and when it is cooked you will cast the rosewater in the

pot and prepare dishes; on top of them cast sugar and cinnamon if you wish.

 

 

Note: "Tie it with a thread" is the standard direction in Nola for cooking with

whole spices that are then to be removed.  Since the thought of tying threads

to individual cloves is daunting to me, I think I'd make up a cheesecloth

bundle and scoop it out afterwards with a slotted spoon.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

 

 

Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 22:01:59 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Apple butter

 

Sue Clemenger wrote:

> Hmm, don't know who sent the first part of this message, but I've made

> both sauce and butter, and would say, rather, that the chief difference

> lies more in the relative amounts of time alloted for cooking them.

> As far as ingredients go, I'm sure there are a number of local variants,

> and of course, the taste of the finished product would also depend on

> the type(s) of apples being used.

> Hmm, it's almost apple time here....I just may have to trot down to the

> farmers' market for ingredients....yum...

> --Maire

 

It was my understanding that at least some versions of apple butter are

made with no added sugar, just apples cooked in apple juice until more

or less homogeneous, and that a mix of apple varieties, including both

sweet and tart types, compensated for the lack of cane sugar. I dunno, I

think I read all this off an apple butter jar label.

 

I also think a key difference would be in the usage. Apple butter is

sufficiently rich that I would serve it pretty much only as a spread for

bread and such, _maybe_ between cake layers, while I would do neither

with applesauce, which I tend to see either as a stand-alone dish or as

an accompaniment for things like meats, black puddings (yum!) and

perhaps various frittery units such as latkes.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:57:38 GMT

From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at hotmail.com>

Subject: SC - Re: cider

 

>Does anyone on this list happen to know whether Italians drank cider in

>period?

 

Italians I don't know about.  Hard-cider production in the Asturias and

Cantabria regions of Spain, IIRC, goes back to the Roman era, and cider is

still a popular beverage in northern Spain.  (Neat party trick: hold a glass

by your waist, and a bottle of cider above your head.  Pour the cider into

the glass without spilling.  This is the traditional method of pouring cider

in Asturias; this supposedly aerates the beverage.)  I don't know if the

Italians would have considered cider to be an appropriate beverage,

particularly if it soured quickly.  You could try a couple of apple recipes

from De Nola, who cooked for the King of Naples:

 

Pomada (Sauce with Apples)

 

Take apples that are tart and sweet; and cut each one into fourths, and peel

them; and remove the cores and then put them in cold water and if they are

very tart give them a boil and then take blanched almonds and grind them

well; and put the apples in the water and grind them with the almonds very

vigorously; and when this is all ground together thin it with good chicken

stock and force it through a strainer, and put it all in the pot you will

cook with; and take fine white ginger and peel it so that it is all white;

and cut it into little pieces about half the size of dice; and let them soak

overnight in rosewater that should be fine; then take whole cinnamon and tie

it with a thread along with cloves and scald them in hot broth, and when

they are scalded set the pot with the apples on the fire; and add a good

amount of sugar; and when it is more than half cooked take the ginger and

the cloves and the soaked cinnamon and put it all in the pot, and if it does

not taste enough like ginger add a little ground ginger until it does taste

of ginger; and when it is cooked add rosewater to the pot and prepare the

serving dishes; sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on them if you wish.

 

Mirrauste of Apples

 

Take the sweetest apples and peel off their skins, and cut them into

fourths; and remove the cores and the seeds, and then bring a pot to boil

with as much water as you know is needed, and when the water boils add the

apples and then take well toasted almonds; and grind them in a mortar, thin

them with the broth from the apples, and force them through a strainer with

a large piece of bread soaked in the broth from the apples; and all this

should come out very thick: and once it is forced through add a good amount

of ground cinnamon and sugar; and then set it on the fire to cook and when

the sauce boils remove it from the fire; and add the apples that should be

well drained of their broth, but watch that the apples are not scalded, so

that you can prepare serving dishes of them; and once they are prepared

scatter sugar and cinnamon over them.

 

Let us know how it all turns out!

 

Vicente

 

 

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:53:28 -0400

From: Ann & Les Shelton <sheltons at conterra.com>

Subject: SC - Re: Cider

 

<<Does anyone on this list happen to know whether Italians drank cider

in period? >>

 

<< I seem to recall that the first "cider house" in England was

established in fairly late period, but, again, this is a fair bit

distant from Italy.  Perhaps someone could enlighten us as to whether

apples were prevailant in Italy during period, and from there we could

conduct a little research.  My uneducated guess would be that wine would

have been preferred over cider, perhaps to such an extent that it's

commercial production would have been very limited.  This is, of course,

only a guess.    Balthazar of Blackmoor >>

 

Platina (1468) distinguished between sweet apples which should be eaten

in the first course and sour/astringent apples which were more safely

eaten after meals.  There were varieties that were early ripening,

summer ripening, and those that kept in the winter, although he doesn't

name them.  His only comment re apple juice is that it easily turns to

vinegar when pressed.

 

Castelvetro (1614), writing for an English patron, wrote:  "Here should

have been the place to describe the enormous quantity of apples and

pears we have in such profusion, but since to do so would take up more

space than I have room for, I shall limit myself to describing only

those varieties which you do not have in England."  The only variety he

describes is the Paradise Apple.  He doesn't mention the general uses of

apples in Italy; several pages later, he goes into great depth re the

different types and uses of grapes, specifically wine-making.

 

So, it looks like apples were commonly available as a food, but I don't

have anything that says they were turned into something like cider in

period.

 

John

 

 

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:07:24 -0400

From: harper at idt.net

Subject: Re: SC - Apples?

 

And it came to pass on 18 Oct 00, , that Hoon, Twila wrote:

> Additionally, does anybody have a period reference to baked whole or

> quartered apples that remain "apple shaped" as opposed to apple sauce /

> apple moy (sp?)?

 

Vincente recently posted his translation of Mirraust of Apples from

Nola. That's quartered apples cooked in almond milk with sugar

and cinnamon.  I think Granado has a baked quince recipe, and at

the end says "and you can do the same with apples".  I'll check

later.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

 

 

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:25:32 -0600 (MDT)

From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse)

Subject: SC - many digests and German things...

 

The Kuchen recipe... I did check Baufeld, and the reference would indeed

translate as a bundle of straw, and I have no clue what purpose that would

have served.  I would love to hear what re-creation you come up with.

Apples in shape: Rumpolt (1581 German) has several fried/roasted apple type

recipes.

#39. take apples/ and hollow them out/ or push the core out with a hollow

iron/ and make with wine a dough/ and cover the apples therein/ toss them in

hot butter/ and bake (remember in German this still can mean fry) them out/

so the dough becomes crisp (or could mean quick - as in fry quickly) (the

word is rech - don't have Baufeld to hand)  / give it warm to the table/ and

sprinkle it with sugar, so it is good and welltasting.

 

#40. take apples/ hollow them out / and toss them in hot butter/ roast them/

till they are nicely brown/ take them out into a fish kettle/ put anis/

crushed cinnamon and sugar/ thereover/ pour wine thereover/ and let it

therewith make a juice/ that it makes a short broth/ but do not let the

apples overcook/ that you can lift them out whole in a bowl/ sprinkle it with

sugar/ and give it warm/ to the table so it is good and lovely

 

On a semi related note.. I just spotted a recipe (#37) for "Erdtepffel'"

apples of the earth (related to pomme de terre? Potato? (has it been

discussed here before?

Sorry if Im duplicating:

#37 "Earthapples" peel and cut them nicely small/ soak (or poach) them in

water/ and press them well out through a closewoven cloth/ chop them small

and roast them in bacon that is cut small/ take a little milk thereunder/ and

let it simmer therewith/ so it will be good and welltasting.

 

Gwen Catrin von Berlin

 

 

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:09:28 -0500

From: harper at idt.net

Subject: SC - Recipe: cider sauce

 

For many of us, apple cider is widely available right now, so here's

a period recipe that uses it.  It has the texture of honey, and a

wonderful sweet-tart flavor.  Note to non-U.S. cooks: sweet apple

cider is a non-alcoholic unfiltered apple juice.

 

I do not know what this sauce was intended to be served with.  It

can be spread like jelly on bread.  I suspect it would go well with

pork or duck.  I also suspect that it would be a good candidate for

canning, though I have no practical experience in that area.  

Refrigerated, it keeps for at least a month, probably longer.

 

 

CIDER SAUCE

 

Source: Diego Granado, Libro del Arte de Cozina, 1599

Translation & Redaction: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

 

 

               Para hacer salsa de zumo de manzanas

               To make sauce of the juice of apples

 

Take the apples, and without peeling them, grate them and extract the

juice from them, as we said of the quinces; adding a little vinegar, and

white wine, and take the clearest part, and for each pound of juice, put

eight ounces of sugar, and cook it like the juice of the quinces, with the

same spices.

 

 

And two related recipes:

 

                      Para hazer salsa real

                       To make royal sauce

 

Take three pounds of fine sugar, and two quarts of white vinegar without

roses, and a quart of white wine, a little whole cinnamon, and make it boil

all together in a new glazed pot until it is cooked, and have the pot

covered, so that it cannot exhale, and to know if it is cooked, the sign will

be that, in falling, a drop will congeal, so that touching it with your hand

does not make it come apart.  Serve it cold, and take care that it does not

burn. When you cook it, you can add nutmeg, and cloves, and in place

of the pot, you can make it in a casserole.

 

 

              Para hazer salsa de zumo de membrillos

              To make sauce of the juice of quinces

 

Grate the quince lightly with a grater, without peeling it, and put it inside

the woolen cloth, and press it until it has yielded all the juice, and put it

in a flask until the thickest part goes to the bottom, and take the clearest

part, and put it in a glazed casserole or pot, and for each pound of juice

put eight ounces of sugar, and two ounces of vinegar, and one ounce of

wine of San Martin, and cook it in the manner that the Royal Sauce is

cooked, as described above, with a quarter [ounce] of whole cinnamon,

half a nutmeg, and four cloves.

 

 

Apple Cider Sauce

 

2 cups        sweet apple cider

8 ounces      sugar

1/4 cup              white wine vinegar

2 tablespoons       white wine

1/2 ounce   cinnamon sticks

1/2            whole nutmeg

4              whole cloves

 

Combine all ingredients in a saucepan and simmer over medium-low heat

about 45 minutes, until the volume is reduced by half and a candy

thermometer reads 220F (105C).  Strain through cheesecloth.  Pour into a

clean glass jar.  Refrigerate.  Makes about 1 cup.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

 

 

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:33:00 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - RE: German Feast

 

> > >Apple pillows (an apple quarter, battered and fried)

> Ooh... I'd love to see the recipe for this!

>

> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise           

 

From Sabina Welserin:

 

140 Apple pillows

 

Take good apples, peel them and cut them into four pieces. Take flour, eggs

and water and salt, make a batter, not too thin , pour the apples into it

and put fat in a deep pan. When it is hot, put the pieces into the fat,

until the cake rises, let it fry slowly. Turn it, let it also fry on the

other side, then it is good.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:06:01 +0100

From: UlfR <parlei at algonet.se>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was: ReApple Computers,Now:Back On topic

 

DeeWolff at aol.com <DeeWolff at aol.com> [2001.12.12] wrote:

> Anybody got any good period apple recipes other that applemuse?

 

Appulmoy, but that perhaps counts as close enought to make no

difference? Anyone tried the ones from Sabrina Welsherin. I'm thinking

in particular of:

 

75 Another apple tart

 

Peel the apples, slice them and roast them, cut the cores cleanly out.

Chop them small beforehand and put beef marrow thereon and grated bread

crumbs. Stir it together well, stir into it also cinnamon, sugar and

raisins and let it bake.

--

UlfR                                                 parlei at algonet.se

 

 

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:23 -0500

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apples

 

I have used the bombard apples from Mrs. Blencowe.

 

Nanna submitted it on the web to a site, so I have

copied that here to save the re-typing.

BOMBARD APPLES

 

Recipe taken from the Recipe Book

of Anne Blencowe, written in 1694

 

1 large apple for each person

2 or 3 crystallized apricots or some good apricot jam

puff pastry (allow 2 oz. for each apple to be enclosed)

white of eggs (allow 1 to every 2 apples)

about 6 oz caster sugar

2 teaspoons orange juice

 

Peel and core the apples and fill with the cut-up

apricots or apricot jam.  Roll the puff pastry very

thin, cut in large squares, one

for each apple, and enrobe them. Bake for 10 minutes

at 450 F, then reduce the heat to 350 F. Cook a further

15 minutes.

Meanwhile, beat the egg whites with the orange juice

and sugar until they hold a peak. As soon as you take

out the apples, pile

this meringue over them, so that it runs down

the sides. They should look like snowballs. Pull them

in the warming drawer of

your cooker, to set the meringue without colouring,

and after about 2 hours, take them out and let them get quite cold

before

serving. They should be eaten with cream.

 

"They make a very pretty side dish", says Mrs. Blencowe.

 

Bibliography - Historical Receipts C-2

Recipe submitted by Nanna R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir

 

Fettiplace discusses tarts and pies. There are also

a variety of things like apple jellies, creams, pastes, pancakes

and comfits that can be done with apples.

 

Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway

 

 

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:37:56 -0800

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dissolving Saunders

 

>It'll be fun experimenting with it....Anyone got some favored recipes

>that have saunders as an ingredient?

 

 

Anahita's Apple Moys/Moyle for 80

Based on a survey of five recipes

in "Two Fifteenth Century English Cookbooks"

 

24 apples - peel, core, cut up

4 cups ground blanched almonds

1 gallon plus 1 quart warm water

1-1/2 cups granulated white sugar

1 tsp. saffron

1 tsp. powdered red sanders

1/2 salt

 

"Good Powder"

1-1/2 tsp. powdered ginger

1-1/2 tsp. powdered cinnamon

1-1/2 tsp. powdered cloves

1-1/2 tsp. powdered mace

3/4 tsp. powdered pepper

3/4 tsp. powdered grains of paradise

 

1. Make almond milk with ground almonds and warm water.

2. Simmer prepared apples in almond milk until tender on a medium fire.

3. Puree cooked apples and almond milk in food processor

(we actually used a potato masher right in the cooking pot at the Boar Hunt).

4. Add remaining ingredients and simmer until thick on a low fire,

stirring often to prevent burning on the bottom.

5. Taste and adjust seasonings.

 

NOTES:

OK, so i cheated and used both saunders =and= good powder.

In order to serve this to vegetarians, i made it with almond milk, not broth.

There were just a couple servings left over. I took 'em home and ate 'em.

 

ORIGINAL RECIPES

 

Harleian Ms. 279 (c. 1430) (3 recipes)

 

Lxxix. Apple Muse.

Take Appelys an sethe hem, and Serge hem thorwe a Sefe in-to a potte;

thanne take Almaunde Mylke & Hony, an caste ther-to, an gratid Brede,

Safroun, Saunderys, & Salt a lytil, & caste all in the potte & lete

hem sethe; & loke that thou stere it wyl, & serue it forth.

[this is the only one of the five that uses saunders]

 

Cxxxiiij. Apple Moyle.

Nym Rys, an bray hem wyl, & temper hem with Almaunde mylke, & boyle

it' & take Applys, & pare hem, an small screde hem in mossellys;

throw on sugre y-now, & coloure it with safroun, & caste ther-to gode

pouder, & serue f[orth].

 

Cxxxv. Applade Ryalle.

Take Applys, & sethe hem tylle they ben tendyr, & than let hem kele;

then draw hem throw a straynour; & on flesshe day caste ther-to gode

fatte brothe of freysshe beef, an whyte grece, & Sugre, & Safroun, &

gode pouder; & in a Fysshe day, take Almaunde mylke, & oyle of Olyff,

& draw ther-vppe with-al a gode pouder, & serue forth. An for nede,

draw it vppe with Wyne, & a lytil hony put ther-to for to make it

than dowcet; and serue it forth.

 

 

Laud Ms. 553 (Bodleian Library) (2 recipes)

 

Pommesmoille.

Nym rys & bray hem in a morter, tempre hem vp with almande milke,

boille hem: nym appelis & kerue hem as small as douste, cast hem yn

after ye boillyng, & sugur: colour hit with safron, cast therto goud

poudre, & 3if hit forth.

 

Apply moys.

Nym appeles, seth hem, let hem kele, frete hem throwe an her syue;

cast it on a pot / & on a fless day cast thereto goud fat broth of

bef, & white grese sugur & safron, & on fissh days almand mylke, &

oille de oliue, & sugur, & safron: boille hit, messe hit, cast aboue

good poudre, & 3if it forth.

 

 

From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:01:18 -0400

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Finding "period" Apples

 

I believe that the good gentle that originally replied to this post was

confusing the Pink Lady Apple with the Lady Apple. The Lady Apple is most

likely within our period of study and is most definitely French.

 

If you are interested in Planting an apple tree that will produce period

apples you should check the following link:

http://www.applenursery.com/

They have at least 4 varietys that should be acceptable.

 

In one of my Gardening Books "The Medieval Garden" there is a reference to

documentation that shows that there were at least sixteen varieties of

apples and pears grown in England during the thirteenth century. A specific

reference is sited of Eleanor of Castile sending to Paris for grafts of the

"Blancdurel" apple to be grown in the royal garden at King's Langley in

1280. (She also sent for cherry wine and brie - the lady had good taste).

This had to be done because apples (and pears) do not reproduce true to form

from seed. Each seed in every apple is genetically different, and if you

were to plant 10 seeds all from the same apple - once they matured and if

they bore fruit, all of trees would give very different fruits. And most of

them would be inedible, fit only for cider and not for eating.

 

This was known early on in history and the art of grafting is an ancient

one. The good thing for us in all of this, is if we can actually find trees

that claim a specific date they should bear fruit identical (giving

allowance for dirt and climate) to the original tree that was deemed worthy

to "clone" by grafting. The bad thing for us is the fact that in the quest

for sweetness, predictability and conformity we (ie: the american corporate

farmer) have created mealy, characterless apples.

 

Serena da Riva

 

 

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:49:47 -0700

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Finding "period" Apples

 

>This was known early on in history and the art of grafting is an ancient

>one. The good thing for us in all of this, is if we can actually find trees

>that claim a specific date they should bear fruit identical (giving

>allowance for dirt and climate) to the original tree that was deemed worthy

>to "clone" by grafting. The bad thing for us is the fact that in the quest

>for sweetness, predictability and conformity we (ie: the american corporate

>farmer) have created mealy, characterless apples.

 

The problem is that we are too mobile. I abandoned my first orchard

containing period varieties in Philadelphia more than twenty-five

years ago,  three more orchards (I don't remember if the one in New

Orleans had any period varieties of fruit or not) since. No idea if

any of the trees are still there.

 

The green gage plum in my  latest orchard, however, has gotten to the

point of producing fruit. I have hopes for the lady apple in another

few years. If I can just stay put a while ...  .

 

Incidentally, Summer Rambos, which are period or very close, are

still grown commercially. A store near Pennsic used to carry them--at

the right time of the year. But I haven't seen them in recent years.

 

There is a firm called "Applesource" that will mail you boxes of

apples of any of a very large number of varieties, including some

period ones. Useful if you like to taste before you plant.

--

David/Cariadoc

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

 

 

From: "Sharon Gordon" <gordonse at one.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:20:49 -0400

Subject: [Sca-cooks] A trick for growing period apples & note for person who has healthy tree but not preferred variety

 

One neat thing about apples is that you can graft many different kinds on to

the same tree.  A three year old tree has room for about 5 different grafts.

Over time you could have 40+ different kinds on the same tree.  It's really

neat when it blooms as the flowers look different on various branches and

then again as the fruit ripens.  An advantage is that the fruit can ripen

over several months instead of all at once.

 

For the person who was thinking of cutting down some healthy neglected old

trees and planting period ones instead.  Please don't!  ...For two

reasons...

1) One is that a healthy old neglected tree is a good source of grafting

stock for other people who would like to grow organic apples.

 

2) The other is that you can remove grafting stock for others and then graft

on period scion wood for yourself.

You will then usually have some apples from that new graft the very next

year rather than having to wait 3-5 for a new tree to grow up and produce.

 

Most local extension services will have a spring saturday morning grafting

workshop if you would like to learn how.  It's not hard, and you can also

learn from drawings in books.  If you live within driving distance of

Decorah, Iowa there is an apple orchard with several hundred heirloom apple

varieties and a couple hundred heirloom grapes.  You can arrange to get

scion wood from them.

It's at the Seed Savers Exchange farm.  If you can go

the 3rd(or so) weekend in July for their big meeting, you can also  meet the

guy who is researching heirloom apples and has a huge database of

information on old varieties of apples.  I think it's at 8,000+ varieties

now.

 

Sharon

 

 

Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:52:08 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Heirloom Apples

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

I came across a variety of heirloom apple being marketed

locally last week in Ann Arbor. They were being marketed

as a 16th century French apple... like you see in the artworks of

the period.

I thought people might like the information that I discovered

when I looked them up.

 

The apple was 'Calville Blanc D'Hiver', France, late 1590's

French specialty apple, gourmet quality, good for all-purposes

http://gardengal.net/page130.html

 

CALVILLE BLANC D'HIVER France or Germany 1598

Uniquely shaped medium to large size fruit, skin yellow with light red flush.

Fine textured. Flesh is tender, yellowish-white; flavor sweet, subacid, aromatic.

Higher in Vitamin C than an orange. This is the gourmet culinary apple

of France, excellent for tarts.

http://www.treesofantiquity.com/apples.html

 

Both the web sites are rather interesting.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:39:57 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period aple  varieties

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

--- Carole Smith <renaissancespirit2 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was perusing Kenlm Digbie's Closet Opened this morning and found a

> recipe where pippins are

> used.  Digbie went on to state that he preferred John-Apples above pippins.

> Does anyone happen to know what a John-Apple was like?

> Cordelia Toser

 

According to the Prospect Book's Glossary of Cooking Terms:

 

JOHN APPLES/APPLE-JOHN: a keeping apple, said to keep until the next year’s early apples were ready, widely grown in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The name derives from their lasting until about St. John’s Day (August 29). (Sir Kenelm Digby, 1669)  Also known more recently as Ironstone Pippin, Winter Greening and French Crab. A cooking and cider apple known from

Elizabethan times for its good quality and excellent keeping properties.

 

htp://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/lane/kal69/shop/pages/glossa.htm

 

Huette

 

 

Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:40:29 -0600

From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] verjice

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

There's a recipe in Fettiplace that I always wanted to try, that makes a

fruit paste out of unripe apples that you pick by a certain day.

Apparently, the paste is bright green, although it will sun fade.  I

thought it would be neat to do a display of different kinds of this sort

of late-period sweets, along with white and black quince pastes, etc.

--maie

 

Stefan li Rous wrote:

> Eibhlin commented:

>> And back to cooking, I'm going to try and turn some of

>> these culls into apple verjus.  We'll see how much

>> I'll be able to get out of the little buggers, and how

>> willing I'll be to do it again nxt year!

> Interesting. Please keep us informed on how your experiment goes. The

> only two fruits though that I remember being used for period verjuice

> were unripe grapes and crabapples. However, I can't see folks in the

> Middle Ages letting these culls go to waste. Other than feeding them to

> the pigs, I'm not sure how else the unripe apples would have been used.

 

 

Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:58:52 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] verjuice

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> Right, but you have them way to big.  Crabapples are about the size of  

> a cherry. and slightly bitter. not pleasant eating without sweetening.

 

Not entirely true...

there are "juicing" or "cider" varieties of crabapples that yield fruit  

a little larger than a baby's fist.

I have one such on my property. they whole area in which my house was  

developed was, at the turn of the 20th century, a massive apple  

orchard, with a lot of cider business, so we have a lot of apples,  

wild, in the area. I have three varieties in my 1/2 acre alone.

If it weren't for the bugs, I'd be floating in cider.

 

Capt Elias

-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

 

 

Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:51:32 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] verjuice

To: gedney1 at iconn.net, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

On Jun 19, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Jeff Gedney wrote:

> there are "juicing" or "cider" varieties of crabapples that yield

> fruit a little larger than a baby's fist.

> I have one such on my property. they whole area in which my house

> was developed was, at the turn of the 20th century, a massive apple

> orchard, with a lot of cider business, so we have a lot of apples,

> wild, in the area. I have three varieties in my 1/2 acre alone.

> If it weren't for the bugs, I'd be floating in cider.

 

That's been my experience, too. The ones growing around here look

pretty much like what are now being sold as Lady Apples, about the

size of a golf ball, only more sour (more sour than a golf ball???).

Maybe it's an East Coast thing.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:59:39 -0400

From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] crabapples vs. apples

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> I would like to see the fruits you all are calling crabapples.  I have

> never seen one larger than 1", I am thinking I am not talking about the

> same type that you are calling crabapples.  Mine are marble sized and

> almost ripe now, probably have to do something with them within the

> next few weeks at the latest.

> radei

 

From Ohio State University Fact Sheet

Horticulture and Crop Science

2021 Coffey Road, Columbus, OH 43210-1086

 

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1029.html

 

Fruit

Apples and crabapples are in the rose family, Rosaceae, in the genus Malus.

Crabapples are differentiated from apples based on fruit size. If fruit is

two inches in diameter or less, it is termed a crabapple. If the fruit is

larger than two inches, it is classified as an apple.

 

Fruit is borne in the summer and fall. Colors range from dark-reddish

purples through the reds and oranges to golden yellow and even some green.

On certain selections the fruit can remain attractive well into the late

winter. The larger fruited cultivars offer a bonus because the fruit can be

spiced or used in jelly.

 

Saint Phlip,

CoD

 

 

Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:30:49 -0500

From: "Radei Drchevich" <radei at moscowmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] crabapples vs. apples

To: "Coks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Hortus Third : A Concise Dictionary of Plants Cultivated in the United

States and Canada

 

Staff ofthe L.H. Bailey Hortorium, Cornell University copyright 1976

Cornell University

 

   Malus

 

Mill. APPLE. Rosaceae. About 25 ssp. Of small. much-branched, deciduous,

trees or shrubs of the N. Temp. Zone; sometimes treated as a subgenus of

Pyrus, from which t is here distinguished by its soft, more or less

pubescent lf. Surfaces with acute rather than callous-tipped marginal

teeth, broad, pubescent or tomentose winter-buds, fl. Cluster

prevailingly simple without a columnar central stalk, pome lacking stone

ells or grit cells, calyx tube open in flowering and not closed about

the styles, which are more or less united basally.

 

Apples are grown for fruit and as ornamentals. The most important fruit

trees of cools temperate regions are the various descendants of Malus

pumila, the wild or original apple. The pomological crabs or crab apples

may be Malus baccata or derivatives, and a few hybrids have been produced

by crossing Malus ioensis with cultivated apples. The native crab apples

are sometimes grown as oramentals, chiefly for their pink-white flowers.

The oriental crab apples of the Malus floribunda group are among the

choicest of small, hardy decorative trees with an abundance of showy

flowers and fruit. They may be budded on closely related stock or te

species grown directly from seeds.

 

Many of the binomials of cultivated apples are difficult to determine and

probably represent hybrid forms; in some cases they may be clones

perputuated asexually, or sometimes apomictically. For culture see Apple.

angustifolia (Ait) Michx. [pyrus angustifolia Ait.]. SOUTHERN WILD CRAB

A., AMERICAN CRAB, WILD C. Trees to 25 ft., fl. Branchlets and lvs. soon

glabrous; lvs. oblong to narrow-elliptic, round-tipped to

short-mucronate, firm, often evergreen, 1-3 in. lon, pedicels glabrous;

fls. 1 in across, petals pink, fading to white; fr. To 1 1/2 in. in diam.,

yellowish-green. Md. To Ky. And Mo., s. to Fla. and La.

 

there are many more entries, but none are north american species.  the

majority of the larger fruited crabs seem to be Asian in origin.  I can

provide all entries for genus Malus if you like.  The only crabapples I

have come in contact with are of this discription.

 

  radei

 

 

Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:31:07 -0500

From: "Christine Seelye-King" <kingstaste at mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] need recipe

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Is this the one?  (my rendering)

 

81. Appulmoy  Curye On Inglysch

Take apples and seeth hem in water; drawe hem thurgh a straynour.  Take

almaunde mylke & hony and flour of rys, safroun and powdour fort and  

salt, and seeth it stondyng.

 

Applemoy (Apple Mouse) (Rendered Recipe)

Apples, almond milk, honey, rice flour, saffron, powdour fort spice blend, salt.

Clean, quarter, and core apples.  Boil them in water until soft.  Drain.

Mash apples through a strainer.  If you have left the peels on, make sure

they are removed at this step.  Heat almond milk and honey in a pan, add

enough rice flour to thicken slightly.  Add apples and seasonings, cook

until flour is absorbed and desired consistency is reached.  Serve hot or

cold.

 

I have not included amounts in this rendering.  The desired consistency is

not specified in the original recipe, so it can be as thin as a shake, or as

thick as a pudding, depending on how many apples you start with, how much

rice flour you use, and how long you cook it.  The sweetness will vary with

the apples and with the amount of honey you use, and the spicing is at your

discretion.

 

Christianna

 

 

Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:41:33 -0600

From: "Pat Griffin" <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] need recipe

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< The desired consistency is not specified in the original recipe,

 

Christianna >>>

 

I believe "stondying" means a kind of thick paste, perhaps one you can

"stand" a spoon in.

 

Lady Anne du Bosc Known as Mordonna The Cook

 

Mka Pat Griffin

Thorngill, Meridies

mka Montgomery, AL

 

 

Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:30:14 -0800

From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] need recipe

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Olwen the Odd <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>

> I am in need of a recipe for something that my be called Apple Muse

> or something like that.  Anyone have any ideas?  I probably don't

> have the spelling correct or may not even have the name right at all.

 

Hey, why worry? The "period" English spelled it all sorts of ways,  

too :-)

 

> Thanks a bunch!Cariad a heddwch (love and peace)Dame Olwen the Odd

> Laurel to Lady Katherine O'CarrollOrder of the Pearl Deputy, Bright

> Hills Cooks Guild House Blackstar Barony of Bright Hills Kingdom of

> Atlantia!

 

I have five historical recipes on my web site, along with my own

version which I served in my mostly German feast:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Food/2001_Feasts/2001-Boar_Hunt/

2001-2nd.html

 

Apple Moys

5 recipes in "Two Fifteenth Century English Cookbooks"

 

Harleian Ms. 279 (c. 1430)

 

Lxxix. Apple Muse. Take Appelys an sethe hem, and Serge hem thorwe a

Sefe in-to a potte; thanne take Almaunde Mylke & Hony, an caste

ther-to, an gratid Brede, Safroun, Saunderys, & Salt a lytil, & caste

all in the potte & lete hem sethe; & loke that thou stere it wyl, &

serue it forth.

 

Cxxxiiij. Apple Moyle. Nym Rys, an bray hem wyl, & temper hem with

Almaunde mylke, & boyle it & take Applys, & pare hem, an small screde

hem in mossellys; throw on sugre y-now, & coloure it with safroun, &

caste ther-to gode pouder, & serue f[orth].

 

Cxxxv. Applade Ryalle. Take Applys, & sethe hem tylle they ben

tendyr, & than let hem kele; then draw hem throw a straynour; & on

flesshe day caste ther-to gode fatte brothe of freysshe beef, an

whyte grece, & Sugre, & Safroun, & gode pouder; & in a Fysshe day,

take Almaunde mylke, & oyle of Olyff, & draw ther-vppe with-al a gode

pouder, & serue forth. An for nede, draw it vppe with Wyne, & a lytil

hony put ther-to for to make it than dowcet; and serue it forth.

 

Laud Ms. 553 (Bodleian Library)

 

Pommesmoille. Nym rys & bray hem in a morter, tempre hem vp with

almande milke, boille hem: nym appelis & kerue hem as small as

douste, cast hem yn after ye boillyng, & sugur: colour hit with

safron, cast therto goud poudre, & 3if hit forth.

 

Apply moys. Nym appeles, seth hem, let hem kele, frete hem throwe an

her syue; cast it on a pot / & on a fless day cast thereto goud fat

broth of bef, & white grese sugur & safron, & on fissh days almand

mylke, & oille de oliue, & sugur, & safron: boille hit, messe hit,

cast aboue good poudre, & 3if it forth.

 

Anahita's Recipe

makes 72 servings

 

24 apples - peel, core, cut up

4 cups ground almonds

1 gallon warm water

1-1/2 cups sugar

1 tsp. saffron

1 tsp. red sanders

1/2 salt

 

Good Powder:

1-1/2 tsp. ginger

1-1/2 tsp. cinnamon

1-1/2 tsp. cloves

1-1/2 tsp. mace

3/4 tsp. pepper

3/4 tsp. grains of paradise

 

1. Make almond milk with ground almonds and warm water.

2. Simmer apples in almond milk until tender.

3. Puree in food processor. SEE NOTE TWO

4. Add remaining ingredients and simmer until thick.

5. Taste and adjust seasonings.

 

NOTES:

ONE: This recipe could have used a little more liquid. As it was, it

came out fine, but we might have added a couple cups of water while

the apples were cooking. I would suggest using more water to make the

almond milk. After all, there wouldn't be a full gallon of almond

milk with a gallon of water.

 

TWO: Also, because we used the potato masher by hand, this wasn't a

fine puree, but had a bit of texture, which i like.

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

 

 

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 10:17:43 -0700

From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Apples are so common... and yet... i know that many of the varieties

most commonly found in the supermarket are fairly recent hybrids. And

i have trouble finding many of the apples i remember from 40 years

ago. I've read that modern apples are being bred to be sweeter and

sweeter, although we can still find some tart apples in the

supermarket.

 

This curiosity was brought on by a recent cooking competition in

which a couple judges were complaining that an entrant had not use

period apples, as if we can find them in the supermarket.

 

I cannot grow my own trees in my second floor apartment, but if

someone has land, here's a great source of historical fruiting plants

(not just apples)

http://www.treesofantiquity.com/

Trees of Antiquity sells all sorts of amazing fruit trees, they even

have a few SCA-period apples, which is something one can't find in

the supermarket. Here are trees they carry (no, they do not sell

fruit, only trees)

The earliest trees i saw listed are:

WHITE PEARMAIN - England 1200 A.D. - Oldest known English Apple.

CALVILLE BLANC - France 1598 -  gourmet culinary apple of France...

SUMMER RAMBO - France 1535 (Rambour Franc) - Large red fruit, bright

striped. Breaking, crisp, exceptionally...

LADY (Christmas Apple, Api) - France 1600 - Traditionally used in

Christmas decorations and...

COURT PENDU PLAT - Europe 1613 (probably Roman) - The name is derived

from Corps Pendu, referring to the shortness...

API ETOILE (Star Lady) - Switzerland 1600's - Very unusual oblate

(flattened) shape looking like a rounded...

ROXBURY RUSSET - Massachusetts prior to 1649 - Excellent old American

cider apple, a keeper and good for eating...

RHODE ISLAND GREENING - Rhode Island 1650 - Favorite American cooking

apple known in earliest colonial...

CALVILLE ROUGE D'AUTOMNE - France 1670 - Large, with characteristic

ribbed Calville shape.

 

There's more info on line for all of them...

 

And, yes, i read the Florilegium file, apples-msg. The link above is

to growers who have replaced the Sonoma Antique Apple Nursery, which

is no longer. The URL for SAAN is now a placeholder only and has

nothing about fruit trees on it.

 

So, what varieties are available today (without growing one's own)

that are period or close to period? Are Pippins as close as we can

get? (crab apples are an awful lot of work for a feast)

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

 

 

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:31:18 -0400

From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,

        sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Gravenstein's perhaps?

 

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravenstein>;

 

I've never seen these in stores in my area (although perhaps I'm just not

looking), but the wikipedia suggests they are popular in Nova Scotia.

 

toodles, margaret

 

--On Sunday, October 26, 2008 10:17 AM -0700 Lilinah

<lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:

<<< Apples are so common... and yet... i know that many of the varieties most

commonly found in the supermarket are fairly recent hybrids. And i have

trouble finding many of the apples i remember from 40 years ago. I've

read that modern apples are being bred to be sweeter and sweeter,

although we can still find some tart apples in the supermarket.

 

This curiosity was brought on by a recent cooking competition in which a

couple judges were complaining that an entrant had not use period apples,

as if we can find them in the supermarket. >>>

 

 

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:03:34 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Antique apple

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Cox Orange pippin 1825/30, was said to be a "chance seedling" from a Ribston

pippin. Ribston Pippin originated from Rouen in Normandy and first planted

near Ribston Hall in Yorktown. Ribston Pippin date is unknown.

 

Margil apple has been known to have been cultivated in Brompton Park Nursery

1750 but it is believed to be of French origin.

http://www.orangepippin.com/apples/margil.aspx

 

source for some info on apples

http://www.orangepippin.com/varietyindex.aspx

 

-----Original Message-----

Stark Bro's nursery has Cox Orange Pippin Antique apple In their catalog.

Climes it is a "Classic English apple" Zone 4-8 if you have room for them.

plachoya

 

 

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:21:30 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

this might help some with varieties

http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/descriptions1.htm

 

Most of them seem to go only back to the 1700s but there is a probablility

that some of those may have gone further back.

 

German, Bietigheimer, 1598

Cathead, English, 1629

 

De

 

 

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:58:19 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Lilinah wrote:

<<< So boiling it down, I want to know:

** which of the typical commercial apples available generally in the

US are as close as one can come to SCA- period apples**

(might also help Canadians, but you guys grow your own :-)

(plus I concede that in this case it'll have to be European apples) >>>

 

One has to do this state by state. What I can locate in Michigan is

not what finds in California or Virginia for instance.

In California--

http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-apples12sep12,1,2159365.story?coll=la-headlines-food

http://www.allaboutapples.com/orchard/ca04.htm

 

General notes and a full series of links:

http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/apple.html

 

You might run names of available varieties that you encounter through

the database

at http://lescrets.free.fr/pomme1/fpommes/varietes.html

http://www.westonapples.com/apples.htm also has dates.

 

I'll check my copy of Morgan and Richards The New Book of Apples and see

what it says.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:18:17 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Dabbled a bit. Jonathan apples are descended from Esopus Spitzenberg apples

which was found in Esopus, NY in the late 1700s. ES apples are of unknown

"parentage". 150 aprox. yrs. not very close so no chocolate for me.

 

De

 

-----Original Message-----

So boiling it down, I want to know:

** which of the typical commercial apples available generally in the

US are as close as one can come to SCA- period apples**

(might also help Canadians, but you guys grow your own :-)

(plus I concede that in this case it'll have to be European apples)

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:21:22 +0000

From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Part of the problem is that it's so very regional.  There are something over 7500 named apple varieties, worldwide.  Around 2500 in the US alone.  They crossbreed VERY easily, and throw up sports regularly.  That's why pure stocks are usually created by grafting.  Differences between the red delicious of today and 30 years ago isn't genetic - it's root stock choice, growing conditions, and (like wine) terrior.  In my neck of the woods, the grocery store has around 20 varieties.  30-40 at the farmer's market.  200-300 if I want to go for a drive.  I suspect this isn't typical.

 

So, what you probably want is less a substitution variety-for-variety, than to understand what KIND of apple you're looking for.  Most European apples from period are considered subacid - sweet, with a low level of malic acid.  Pretty different from the New World crab apple/old world dessert apple crosses common today.  

 

The other factor is WHICH period apple you're going for.  

 

What follows is strictly my opinion, and based on easily available varieties in my locale.

 

Calville Blanc d'Hiver - the premier French dessert apple.  To my mind, you won't ever get another variety that isn't an equally elusive sport of it that tastes very close.  But a Jonagold or Jonalicious would be a decent attempt at a similar firm fleshed, sub-acid dessert apple.

 

Reinette - Jonathan is a decent doppleganger for this one, if it's a particularly sweet Jonathan.

 

Winter Pearmain - Ask for a sweet, subacid russet - most of them tend to be pretty interchangeable when baked anyway.

 

Blue Pearmain - A sweet winesap would do.

 

Snow apples are also a good choice.  Though often not a lot bigger than Lady apples.

 

Cider apples are a LOT harder.  Many of them are pretty darned unique.  And, since we drink a lot less cider these days, much less cultivated.  Classical cider varities cannot be replicated by commercial eating varieties.

 

Better yet might be to order a sampler pack of period apples and modern varieties from one of the growers like Treemendus and have an apple tasting party.  (with cheese, and water crackers, etc.  I've done it once with hard cider, as well - but that makes it awfully hard to remember what apples you did like).  Or, if you have a Fresh Market nearby, you can usually get one of the clerks to romp through the apple section with a knife for you.  Try different varieties and see what might match the period ones.  Once you get used to tasting apples, you'll start being able to pick out substitutes from descriptions with a half-way decent degree of accuracy.

 

Femke

 

 

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:30:28 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

To my understanding, apples are indigenous to Europe. Crabapples possible

origin may be Scotland or Sweden.

When you say "New World" are you mostly speaking of present day crabapples

or has there been a discovery on crabapples indigenous to the Americas?

 

De

 

-----Original Message-----

So, what you probably want is less a substitution variety-for-variety, than

to understand what KIND of apple you're looking for.  Most European apples

from period are considered subacid - sweet, with a low level of malic acid.

Pretty different from the New World crab apple/old world dessert apple

crosses common today.

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:04:37 +0000

From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< To my understanding, apples are indigenous to Europe. Crabapples possible

origin may be Scotland or Sweden.

When you say "New World" are you mostly speaking of present day crabapples

or has there been a discovery on crabapples indigenous to the Americas?

 

De >>>

 

Confusing terminology, I think.

 

When I said crabapple, I meant any of the numerous Malus sp.  A fair few of which like M. coronaria, and M. fusca, are native to North America.

 

The Orchard apple, in fact, originated in Asia, according to the latest in genetic and pomological research.

 

The thing you always have to keep in mind is that apples of all types cross-breed with abandon.  The only way to maintain a variety is essentially to clone it via grafting or budding.  

 

Thus, all newer apples are either crosses of cultivated apples, crosses of wild apples and cultivated apples, or "sports".

 

Femke

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:55:36 -0400

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< Differences between the red delicious of today and 30 years ago isn't genetic - it's root stock choice, growing conditions, and (like wine) terrior. >>>

 

I suspect that a bigger difference is how fresh they are when they reach you. Just because apples can be stored doesn't mean that they will taste the same. Someone already commented that Red Delicious become mealy very quickly

 

Ranvaig

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:17:12 +0000

From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

> Some of your vocabulary has me a bit confused. What do you mean by

> "sports" and "terrior"?

 

A "sport" begins as a genetically mutated branch on a tree.  The fruit of the mutated branch is often similar but with enough distinction to warrant propagating in its own right.  Red Rome, for instance, is a sport of Rome Beauty, and Royal Gala is a sport of Gala.

 

"terroir" is essentially "flavor of the Earth."  It refers to the nuances of flavor in a fruit specific to the place it's grown.  Mostly used for wine, but true of other fruits as well.

 

> Do you mean that the crab apples and the dessert apples today are

> crosses within each type? Or that New World crab apples and sold

> world dessert apples have been crossed to produce most of the common

> apples today?

 

Any seeds planted in this country from the first trees planted here would have been hybrids either of old world varieties with each other or with native crabs. It's the nature of the apple.  And Johnny Appleseed did just that.  The best seedlings tended to then be grafted and cultivated.  And lots of the others just went into cider.> This list may be too detailed for me, right now unless I can find > those specific varieties. Which ones of these are eating apples? > Which are best for cider? Which are better in pies and such? I can > make some guesses from your descriptions, though.

 

All of those I listed are decent eating and cooking apples, for the most part.  I don't usually bake with winesaps, but you could.  

 

I didn't even get INTO cider apples, which are a whole 'nother ball of wax.  A good cider fresh or hard)  is a blend of apples.  You can buy Honeycrisp cider around here, but I can't imagine why you'd want to.  Bleh.  You need four characteristics:  Sweet, sharp, bitter, and aroma.  (Though the last is often satisfied by one of the varieties used for the first three.).  I refer you to a better description of the concept here:

http://www.greenmantlenursery.com/fruit/apple-cider.htm

http://www.northamericanbrewers.org/ciderstylesprimer.htm

 

If you're interested in making some, you might try some of the commercial varieties first.  I have a few favorites:

 

http://www.dryblackthorncider.com/b/index_B.html

http://www.cidery.com/

And, if you can find it, my personal favorite, K draft Cider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_cider

 

> And I suspect most of the apples sold in my stores are likely

> chosen because they are better eaten fresh, or perhaps in pies,

> although that usage may be falling as well. I've had abysmal luck

> making cider when I tried using fresh apples or even apple juice, but

> what were the good cider apple varieties in period or even today?

 

See above, Greenmantle Nursery's site.  Off the cuff I'd guess your attempts had way too much sugar and too little malic acid to be palatable.

 

Femke

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:56:47 -0700

From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Stefan asked about:

<<< "sports" and "terrior"? >>>

 

Femke made a typo - that should be "terroir". It is the word commonly

used in French to describe wine grapes from a very specific region,

and not just the general region where the grapes are grown, but even

which side of a hill.

 

That is because the geographic location, the topography, the type of

soil and the climate all effect the flavor of food grown on plants.

So, as Femke was discussing, a particular type of apple grown in

California and in Michigan, assuming that both the root stock and the

specific grafted apple type are identical, will actually taste

different.

 

Even if i grew a particular period apple tree in my back yard

(assuming i had one) here in Northern California, there's a good

chance that its apples will have significant flavor, and potentially

even texture, differences from the same apple grown in, oh, say

France.

 

Here's a definition of sport, not mine:

In botany, a sport is a part of a plant (normally a woody plant, but

sometimes in herbs as well) that shows morphological differences from

the rest of the plant. Sports may differ by foliage shape or color,

flowers, or branch structure.

 

In other words, it is a spontaneous mutant.

 

For example, on a tree producing all yellow apples, a sport would be

a red apple, which may also have some flavor differences from the

yellow apples. If the differences are found to be desirable, then

trees may be grown from that sport, and it can become a new breed.

 

On the Trees of Antiquity website, there are a number of apple trees

they sell that were developed from sports. Since sports happen

naturally, they have happened in the past as well.

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:08:52 -0700

From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

<<< 

<< Calville Blanc d'Hiver - the premier French dessert apple.  To my

mind, you won't ever get another variety that isn't an equally

elusive sport of it that tastes very close.  But a Jonagold or

Jonalicious would be a decent attempt at a similar firm fleshed, sub-

acid dessert apple.

 

Reinette - Jonathan is a decent doppleganger for this one, if it's a

particularly sweet Jonathan.

 

Winter Pearmain - Ask for a sweet, subacid russet - most of them tend

to be pretty interchangeable when baked anyway.

 

Blue Pearmain - A sweet winesap would do.

 

Snow apples are also a good choice.  Though often not a lot bigger

than Lady apples. >>

 

I don't recognize many of the modern names you mention. I guess I'll

need to pick up the apples and start reading the little stamps on the

apples. >>>

 

She listed few modern names:

1. Jonathon - developed in New York around 1825.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_(apple)

1a. Jonagold - obviously a cross between Jonathon and Golden Delicious.

1b. Jonalicious - obviously a cross between Jonathon and Red Delicious.

 

2. Winesaps - have been mentioned before in other messages.

(i'm shocked there's no wikipedia entry for Winesaps!)

 

3. Snow apples - i'm not sure i've ever heard of these, which

apparently date back to the 19th c. Maybe it's regional and just not

common out here in California

 

4. Russets - apples that normally exhibit russeting, that is, instead

of a smooth and shiny skin (of any typical apple color), the apple

skins begin smooth, then turn brownish, matte, and sometimes a bit

rough. This is not unusual in old apple breeds, but modern breeds are

worked on so that they don't russet, since that is now considered

"undesirable". Apparently in Shakespeare's time, russets were called

"leathercoats".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russet_apple

 

<<< This list may be too detailed for me, right now unless I can find

those specific varieties.  Which ones of these are eating apples?

Which are best for cider? Which are better in pies and such? I can

make some guesses from your descriptions, though. >>>

 

Jonathons and Winesaps can be eaten out of hand or used in baking.

According to a couple websites, Winesaps can also be used for cider.

Some russets can be used for cider, but cider apples are generally

rather specific. They tend to be very hard and even a little bitter,

and are not usually pleasant to eat out of hand, although there are a

few exceptions, but make wonderful cider.

 

<<< I'm assuming that "decent doppleganger" means a good substitution? >>>

 

"doppleganger" is German and literally is "double goer". It

originally meant a spirit who is identical to a living person",

generally a rather ghostly double, which often behaves in a sinister

manner. It is used in English literature and conversation to refer

usually to someone who looks, and often behaves, just like someone

else to whom they are not related. So in this case, i'd say it would

mean a good substitute, and not something evil :-)

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:18:53 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples - substitutions for

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< I suspect that a bigger difference is how fresh they are

when they reach you.  Just because apples can be stored

doesn't mean that they will taste the same.  Someone

already commented that Red Delicious become mealy very

quickly

 

Ranvaig >>>

 

But it is also how ripe they were when they were picked.  The majority of all fruit that you find in the major supermarkets were picked before they were ripe, then gassed to make them look ripe.  I believe that this also has a hand in the mealiness of Delicious apples.  A cousin of mine is a farmer in Milton-Freewater, Oregon.  Up until a few years ago, he had a large orchard growing both Golden and Red Delicious apples.  Many years ago, my family went on vacation in September on a three week car trip to visit various relatives of ours in the Pacific Northwest.  We spent a couple of days with this cousin and when we left, he gave us two huge boxes of freshly picked, tree ripened apples of both varieties.  The apples stayed in their boxes for another two weeks, before we got home.  Once home, Mom and I began a marathon apple canning stint. We canned apple slices, apple butter and apple sauce.  We made apple pies and apple pan dowdy.  And we ate fresh apples daily.  Even one month after picking, those apples remained crisp, juicy and flavorful while fresh.  Not a hint of mealiness.  I know that Delicious apples are truly delicious when picked ripe off the tree.  But I believe that when picked green, gassed to look ripe and stored to long, they become mealy, flavorless and yechy.

 

I also know from experience that apricots are truly wonderful, sweet and flavorful when picked ripe off the tree.  The apricots you buy at your supermarket are hard, acidic and tasteless, because they are picked green and gassed to look ripe.  Up until last week, we had a huge apricot tree in our back yard. It consistently produced wonderful apricots that were true ambrosia. Unfortunately, the tree, after forty years of life, succumbed to a bad fungal infection and died.  Its replacement is being researched as I write this.  We also had a bad infestation of bark beetle and have lost two peach trees and several other ornamental trees.  Next week, we are having our yard sprayed to remove the pest.  However, I plan to replace these trees with more fruit trees, including peach, apple, cherry, plum, the aformentioned apricot and possibly an almond tree.  The only tree that has not been affected is out 100 year old pecan tree.  An arborist and a pest control expert says that it is thriving well and can resist such problems.

 

Huette

 

 

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 19:53:49 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< There's an orchard here in Michigan that grows a lot of period

varieties. And they ship!

 

http://www.treemendus-fruit.com/ >>>

 

Note that most of their antique apples are not period for us. Ones I

noticed that I believe are were Calville Blanc d'Hiver, Lady Apple,

Sops of Wine, and Summer Rambo.

--

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

 

 

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:00:56 -0800

From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical Apples

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Cariadoc wrote:

<<< Note that most of their antique apples are not period for us. Ones I

noticed that I believe are were Calville Blanc d'Hiver, Lady Apple,

Sops of Wine, and Summer Rambo. >>>

 

I have found Calville Blanc and Summer Rambo apples as 16th century,

and Lady apples at the very end of the 16th c.,  and Calville Rouge

d'Automne as 17th century.

 

However, i have found Sops of Wine (i assume, perhaps incorrectly,

they are related to modern Winesaps) as dating to 1832.

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

 

 

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:13:49 -0600 (CST)

From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flooded Apples?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< I know that Rumpolt uses flour dusted over things to be fried in butter in

his Flooded Apples recipe, which has been well-received here. >>>

 

Thanks for another example.  What are "Flooded" apples?

 

I assume these are sliced or chopped apples floured and then fried.

Does it specify to peel the apples first?

==========

 

No peeling, just cored and quartered:

 

47. Take apples/ and cut them quarterways/ sprinkle them with flour/

and toss them in hot butter/ and bake [fry] them/ sprinkle them with

sugar/ and give warm to the table/ so it is called geschwembt [flooded] apples.

 

(Gwencat's translation)

 

It makes a very yummy desert item, especially when paired with Sabrina

Welserin's "Snow".

--

-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 01:27:00 +0000

From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apples....

 

<<< [My friend] wants to do some work with some period recipes that use pippin apples.  She cannot get pippin apples here (or at least, not at this time of year, although neither of us recall ever seeing them for sale locally).  What's the most reasonable equivalent she's likely to find in American produce department?

 

Maire >>>

                                     

Finding an apple that resembles any of the varieties identified in period sort of depends on the availability of varieties AT you local grocery store.  Around here - rather a lot.  Two dozen varieties are not an uncommon site - in season. "American produce department" doesn't mean a lot.  

 

If we're talking a typical MegaMart with around 5 or 6 varieties - try for a Golden Delicious, or maybe a Jonalicious.  If you've got a Whole Foods or Fresh Market nearby you might try for GingerGold, Empire, or Snow apples.  You're not real likely to run into Cox Orange Pippin or Glory of York.

 

Most period apple varieties tend to be sweet, and have russeted skin.  Which is why they've fallen out of favor - we like shiny apples, no matter the color. Russeting is considered a flaw.

 

Femke

 

 

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:01:51 +1300

From: Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apples....

 

S CLEMENGER wrote:

<<< Perhaps it would be more instructive if I asked what the characteristics of a medieval pippin would have been? tart? sweet? etc? >>>

 

Hmm... a little research suggests that in the US, the generic term

pippin might be used as a synonym for 'Newtown Pippin'.  This page makes

it out to be a "firm, tart apple that's great for pies, baking, and

applesauce."

 

http://www.foodsubs.com/Apples.html

 

Here's another page about the "pippin" (really the Newtown Pippin).

http://www.specialtyproduce.com/index.php?item=20211

 

Anyway, calling describing an apple simply as a 'pippin' is just

confusing, as there are *many* varieties of pippin apples and whether or not an apple is a pippin is not indicative of its qualities. For

example, while the Newtown Pippin is green-skinned and tart, the Cox's

Orange Pippin is yellow-and-red striped, sweet and subacid. So, there's

no real way to guess what the equivalant to a Medieval 'pippin' would be without more information.

--

Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

 

 

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:03:12 +1300

From: Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apples....

 

David Friedman wrote:

<<< I don't know if any of the current varieties called pippins are

period--my guess is not. Does her recipe specify pippins? I know that

it's part of the name of some out of period varieties, such as Newtown

Pippin and Cox's Orange Pippin, but don't have a clear idea of what

characteristics get something called a pippin, and a quick google

didn't provide much help. >>>

 

A 'pippin' is an apple strain that arises from a chance pollination

rather than any specific type of apple.

--

Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 01:03:25 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apples....

 

For most of period, pippin is a reference to any apple from a tree grown

from seed (pip).  In the 16th Century, the term came to refer to a hard,

late ripening, long lasting apple of acid flavor (Davidson).  The original

pippins were mostly cider apples.

 

Most of the varieties currently referred to as "Pippins" are of 18th, 19th

and 20th Century origin.

 

So, depending on when the recipes were written down, your friend may want to

go with a period apple, such as an Annurca (Italian, probably the apple

referenced by Pliny) or a White Pearmain (England, 1204) or work

specifically with one of the "pippins."  The Newton (or Albemarle) Pippin

isn't period (early 18th Century) or European (being a NA cultivar), but it

may be a good choice for availability.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:57:45 +0000

From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apples....

 

< Most period apple varieties tend to be sweet, and have russeted skin.  ...

 

Femke >

 

<<< What varieties of period apples were you thinking of with those

characteristics? >>>

 

I live close enough to Tree-mendus Fruit  (http://www.treemendus-fruit.com/) to be able to run down there periodically in the fall and buy a few of a LOT of different varieties - and a lot of them are period.  So my suggestions were sort of based on a comparative taste-testing.  Though it varies a LOT from year to year.  

 

So, Claire Blanc d'Hiver is a lot like a very sweet GingerGold or a Golden Delicious (more like the Ginger Gold, but those are harder to find).

 

Pearmains tend to, as a rule, be sweet and subacid.  

 

Snow (Fameuse) apples are like a Lady apple - without having to peel and core 90 thousand of the little things.  They're small, but they're not THAT small. Though Fresh Market used to carry Lady apples, too.

 

The Russetting remark was also based primarily on personal experience.  Most of the period varieties I've gotten MY hot little hands on have tended to have more russetting than modern breeders would consider acceptable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russet_apple

 

I also spent 8 years at a University that puts a LOT of time and effort into apple breeding and assessment.  Those of us who were under the auspices of the College of Ag and Nat Resources had ready access to piles of fresh apples every fall - as long as you were willing to stand there outside the Hort office with your arms and T-shirt filled with apples, listening to the researcher drone on about this years' tests.  

 

Remember that apples are open pollinated.  If you plant a seed from the apple you're eat, you'll get an apple tree - but the fruit it bears will not be much like the one you're eating.  It might be better - it might be sawdust with skin. Apple trees planted from "pips" also often don't bear every year. Maybe every other, maybe less than that.  So, in the interest of consistency and strain improvement, grafting has been practiced since at least Roman times. Pips are still planted, in the search for interesting new varieties - though the crosses are usually deliberate.

 

Blame Johnny Appleseed for the plethora of American varieties, at least in part.  ;-) 1000's of them, most of which have never been named and might exist only as a single tree.  PLUS a lot of these crossbred with native crabs, leading to higher acid concentrations.

 

That, again, is a generalization.  There are scads of European (especially British) cider apples that are VERY high acid.  Not much sweetness at all.  (But good to eat with a little salt).  They've been bred for the characteristic.  

 

But if you take the across the board, those apples not considered cider apples that were known in period and that are still around have a tendency to be sweeter than modern American styles.  It's a matter of taste.

 

And the fact that modern "pippin" varieties are tart doesn't really have any bearing on the period version.  The period varieties I've tried are invariable sweet and subacid

 

So I was going with a short list of easily locatable modern apples similar in flavor, texture, and cooking characteristics to the period ones I've played with.  This is the long version.

 

(If I'm still here in Oct, maybe I'll do an period pippin tasting class.  ;-)

 

Femke

 

<the end>



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