plums-msg

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plums-msg – 10/25/18

Period plums and plum recipes.

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:57:23 -0500

From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)

Subject: Re: SC - Plums period?

Hi, Katerine here. Shirley asks about Italian plums. I have no idea

about the variety, but plums were certainly known and eaten. They are

referred to in English recipes as prunes (which are indeed plums, not

the dried things we mean), bolas, or damsyns. In Curye on Inglysch,

they occur in the following recipes:

Diuersa Cibaria 49 Qwite plumen (White Plums)

Diuersa Seruicia 76 Porreyne

Forme of Cury 98 Erbowle (Bolas, i.e., Plums)*

Forme of Cury 166 Leche frys in Lenten

Forme of Cury 172 Tartee

Forme of Cury 175 Tart de brymlent (Tart for Lent)*

Forme of Cury 177 Tartletes

* Other versions of the same recipe occur in Harley 279

(first MS in Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books) PD 104

& 105, and Harley 5401 #53.

** Another version in Arundel 334, on pg. 357 of the

Society of Antiquaries/Nichols printing.

- -- Katerine/Terry

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:01:02 -0500

From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)

Subject: Re: SC - Plums period?

Adamantius writes:

>If you're talking about the little Italian Prune plums, then while I

>don't know for sure that they're period, I can only assume that

>something very like them were what dried prunes were made from. They, of

>course, were pretty widely used in perod, all over Europe.

Hmmm... "prune" is the Middle English word for plum (well, one of them;

an earlier is "bola"). In English recipes, there's no indication that

prunes are used dried, and expert opinion is primarily to the contrary.

But I don't know about the continent. I've been assuming that they were

using the fresh too; but that's an assumption. Do you have any data?

When a variety is mentioned in English recipes, it's normally damsyns,

but I have no idea whether they are also available now.

- -- Katerine/Terry

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:28:32 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Plums period?

Terry Nutter wrote:

> Adamantius writes:

> >If you're talking about the little Italian Prune plums, then while I

> >don't know for sure that they're period, I can only assume that

> >something very like them were what dried prunes were made from. They, of

> >course, were pretty widely used in perod, all over Europe.

> Hmmm... "prune" is the Middle English word for plum (well, one of them;

> an earlier is "bola"). In English recipes, there's no indication that

> prunes are used dried, and expert opinion is primarily to the contrary.

> But I don't know about the continent. I've been assuming that they were

> using the fresh too; but that's an assumption. Do you have any data?

> When a variety is mentioned in English recipes, it's normally damsyns,

> but I have no idea whether they are also available now.

Damson plums may have been a Middle Eastern import, like several other

items supposedly from Damascus. You can generally find damson plum

preserves in many supermarkets.

I can't think exactly where, but I'm sure I saw a recipe from the

medieval English corpus that calls for bullace plums, another variety

which I seem to recall is an unusually firm, "cooking" plum.

My only real evidence that suggests that dried prunes were used is from

comparatively late period. I do think it significant, though, that in

some of the earlier recipes calling for several fruits, the fruits seem

to be listed according to their state of freshness, which might also be,

coincidentally or not, an indication of diminishing quantity in the

recipe. So, you have the ubiquitous apples and pears, folowed by

raisins, dates, currants, and prunes. I guess if the prunes show up

(when they do at all) right after the pears, then there's no way of

knowing.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is a question of availability,

with fresh and dried being used interchangeably, depending on the

season. It seems pretty clear that the later sources, many of which

call for prunes to be soaked in warm water or wine until they plump up,

are calling for dried fruit.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:38:34 -0700

From: ladymari at GILA.NET (Mary Hysong)

Subject: Re: SC - Plums period?

Terry Nutter wrote:

> When a variety is mentioned in English recipes, it's normally damsyns,

> but I have no idea whether they are also available now.

Damson varities of plums are

very available. they are European in origin as opposed to Japanese.

There are also some other varieties native to the Americas. You've

probably eaten a Damson variety from the store.

Mairi

- --

Mary Hysong <Lady Mairi Broder> and Curtis Edenfield <The C-Man>

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:12:47 -0400

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: Re: SC - Plums period?

>Terry Nutter wrote:

>> Hi, Katerine here.

>> Adamantius writes:

<snip>>

>> Hmmm... "prune" is the Middle English word for plum (well, one of them;

>> an earlier is "bola"). In English recipes, there's no indication that

>> prunes are used dried, and expert opinion is primarily to the contrary.

>> But I don't know about the continent. I've been assuming that they were

>> using the fresh too; but that's an assumption. Do you have any data?

<snip>>

>I can't think exactly where, but I'm sure I saw a recipe from the

>medieval English corpus that calls for bullace plums, another variety

>which I seem to recall is an unusually firm, "cooking" plum.

<snip>

Hello! A few scattered thoughts to add to the general confusion:

The words "bolas" and "bolasse" occur in Harleian MS. 279 Potage Dyvers

#104, meaning bullace plums. Recipe #105 also contains the variant

spelling "Boolas".

Gerard, 1633 ed., p. 1498, says "The BulleÜÜe and the Sloe tree are wilde

kindes of Plums, which do vary in their kind, euen as the greater and

manured Plums do. Of the BulleÜÜe, Üome are greater and of better taÜte

than others."

"The great Damaske or Damson Plummes are dryed in France in great

quantities, and brought ouer vnto vs in Hogs-heads, and other great

vessels, and are those Prunes that are vsually sold at the Grocers, vnder

the name of Damaske Prunes: the blacke Bulleis also are those (being dryed

in the same manner) that they call French Prunes, and by their tartnesse

are thought to binde, as the other, being Üweet, to loosen the body.

The Bruneola Plumme, by reason of his pleasant tartnesse, is much accounted

of, and being dryed, the stones taken from them, are brought ouer to vs in

small boxes, and sold deere at the Comfitmakers, where they very often

accompany all other sorts of banquetting stuffes." (Parkinson, 1629, p.

578.)

Parkinson also lists about 60 varieties of plums.

Plum trees are very prolific, and the soft-skinned fruits are quick to rot.

I find it difficult to believe that the fruits could have all been used

fresh before they rotted. Fresh plums are also not as flavorful and sweet

as the dried prunes. Many fruits, such as cherries, grapes, and currants,

were preserved by drying in period times - why is there any doubt that

plums were dried as well? Also, in the many recipes where prunes are

called for, it is usually in combination with dried fruits such as currants

and dates.

"The late ripe Cherries which the French men keepe dried against winter,

and are by them called Morelle, and we after the Üame name call them Morell

Cherries, are dry, and do somwhat bind: these being dried are pleasant to

the taste, and holesome for the stomacke, like as Prunes be..." (Gerard,

1597 ed., p. 1324.)

"To write of Plums particularly would require a peculiar volume, and yet

the end not to be attained vnto, nor the stock or kindred perfectly

knowne...

Plummes that be ripe and new gathered from the tree, what sort soeuer they

are of, do moisten and coole, and yeeld vnto the body very little

nourishment, and the same nothing good at all: for as Plummes do very

quickly rot, so is also the iuice of them apt to putrifie in the body, and

likewise to cause meate to putrifie which is taken with them.... Dried

Plums, commonly called Prunes, are wholsomer, and more pleasant to the

stomack, they yeeld more nourishment, and better, and such as cannot easily

putrifie. It is reported, saith Galen in his booke of the faculties of

Nourishments, that the best doe grow in Damascus a city of Syria; and next

to those, they that grow in Spaine...Dioscorides saith, that Damaske Prunes

dried do stay the belly... (Gerard, 1633 ed., pp. 1496-98.)

Sincgiefu/Cindy Renfrow

renfrow at skylands.net

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:48:04 -0500

From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)

Subject: Re: SC - Plums period?

Hi, Katerine here. Sincgiefu quoted Gerard at length on plums, suggests that

fresh plums are prolific and don't keep, and asks why one should assume

that they were not dried like other fruits.

I suspect the answer has to do with where and when. I am frankly reluctant

to accept a description of practices from the mid-17th century as telling

me much (or indeed anything) about practices in the 13th to 15th. Setting

aside the sheer passage of time (350 years was a long then as it is now),

culinary practices changed radically between the 15th and 16th centuries.

There are several indications that plums were used fresh. For instance,

the recipe for Bolas in the first manuscript in _Two Fifteenth-Century

Cookery-Books (H279 PD 104, p. 24-5) calls for washing them clean before

putting in liquid to boil; a step that is hardly necessary for dried fruit,

and does not, to the best of my knowledge, occur in any recipe with

regard to dried fruit. (It also does not echo a list of similar opening

instructions in previous recipes.) You see the same thing in the recipe

for Porryene (Diuersa Servicia 76, p. 76, _Curye on Inglysch_), which

also says to take the "fayrist". One sees such indications with fresh

ingredients, but you don't see suggestions to take the best of dried

fruit.

There are recipes, especially for pies, in which we have no indication

whether the plums are dried or fresh, but in which we also see dried

fruit (dates, raisins, currants). In these cases, it seems reasonable

to guess that they may be dried; then again, most of these recipes

call for apples, pears, or both, and there is no reason at all to

believe that these were most often used dried (as opposed to held

over season in cellars or similar storage, a practice that continued

into this century).

As to the prolific nature of the trees: most surviving recipes are

believed to stem from the kitchens of great households, which were

cooking for hundreds. (Amounts, when they are given at all, tend to bear

that hypothesis out.) I see no reason to suppose that such households

could not consume the output of a fuit tree -- especially considering

that serving manuals indicate that soft fruit was typically placed on

the table at the end of the meal, with soft cheese, wafers, and

hypocras.

There may well have been a trade in dried prunes; but if so, it would

have existed for the same reason as trade in other dried fruit (like

raisins): not because it wasn't possible to consume the fresh grapes,

but because there was an independent market for dried ones. I'm

certainly open to the notion that dried prunes may have been used in

the 13th to 15th centuries; I rather suspect that in some of the pies,

they were dried. But I would want stronger evidence before

I claimed it for a fact. I do think that the evidence supports the

view that the dishes in which plums were the main ingredient used

them fresh.

- -- Katerine/Terry

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:29:56 -0400

From: Sharon L Harrett <ceridwen at commnections.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Plums period?

In "Medieval English Gardens", Terese McLean quotes several monastic

rolls from the 13th to 15th centuries, indicating that from these

sources at least, plums were usually used fresh, and wew stored after

harvest in barrels of bran or straw, requiring the cook to sort them out

before serving them. She also indicates that plums, along with certain

other soft fruits were not eaten until they were "ripe to the point of

(near) rotten (Neckham, 13th.C.)

Ceridwen

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 08:23:41 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Jellies vs. aspics

> Probably the closest thing to conserves or fruit paste would be latwerge,

> basically fruit thickened by cooking it down. I think Kuchenmeysterei (c.

> 1490) might have a recipe, I don't know of any others.

> Valoise

Latwerge, huh? This wouldn't be made from plums, would it? There is a

thick plum butter found in Poland, I believe, called lekvar. I wonder if

there's some etymological cognate voodoo going on here...

Adamantius

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 05:53:02 -0500

From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>

To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Sloes

Sloes are the wild plant that plums were bred from, they are very bitter

but have been used in history for jellies (I hope you know the type I mean

for meat & so on) flavouring drinks etc.

You pick them and stab them with one of their own thorns, here(UK) they

grow wild in the hedgrow & are used quite a lot by us country yokels :)

Mel

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:05:55 -0500

From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sloes

Aralyn asked:

>Isn't sloe another name for juniper berries?

Maybe it is over here, but I don't think it is in Europe. In the European

archaeological literature I've read, the species of sloe found at several

Viking Age sites was _Prunus spinosa_, which is a species of plum not native

to the New World. It's also called blackthorn or wild plum, although it's

not the same as the American wild plum.

Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth

capriest at cs.vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrriki

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:55:48 -0600

From: Roberta R Comstock <froggestow at juno.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: cherry wine

>> What is a sloe?

A sloe is the fruit of the blackthorn (Prunus spinosa). It is a small,

sour, blackish plum-like fruit, best known to many in this day and age as

the flavor and coloring agent of sloe gin. The name is also applied to

other closely related plants and their fruits. (Random House College

Dictionary, Revised Edition 1980)

Hertha

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:05:45 -0700

From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>

To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Plum loco

My parents have two plum trees just dripping, even drooping with fruit.

Cherry-sized golden plums and slightly larger purple-red plums. I came

home last night with three bags full and learned some useful things.

1. The Juiceman Juicing Machine is not necessarily the most efficient

way of making juice from soft fruit.

2. Plumstones and gunstones both travel at a high velocity. ZOUNDS!

I gave up on the juicer after the first bag, although I now have two

liters of wonderful nectar with I will freeze and use later. The reds I

will make my traditional Plum Butter, which is just equal parts plum

puree and sugar, cooked until thickish. Maybe do a batch with honey for

that really, really historical effect, but it's going to take a long

long time to cook.

Plum vinegar [now there's a potential jalab!], plum brandy, plum vodka,

I'm plumb tired out already and the tree hardly looks like I've been

picking. Any more ideas, period recipes or such?

Selene the rosy-fingered

From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>

To: "SCA-Cooks (E-mail)" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:04:38 -0000

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: To bake a tarte of prunes (redaction and questions)

Sabina Welserin has a recipe that specifies, i.e.:

70 A tart with plums, which can be dried or fresh

and the next recipe is:

71 Another tart with fresh plums

Below is my redaction of the same recipe. I did it five years ago, and

probably isn't quite how I would do it nowadays, but it's sometimes useful

to compare different versions. As I remember, the filling was quite stodgy,

baked to a firm (Christmas) fruit mince consistency, and was one dish at

that feast that was completely eaten at the table.

To make a Tarte of Prunes: Take Prunes and wash them, then boil them with

faire water, cut in halfe a peny loaf of white bread, and take them out and

strain them with Claret wine, season it with sinamon, Ginger and Sugar, and

a little Rosewater, make the paste as fine as you can, and dry it, and fill

it, and let it drie in the oven, take it out and cast on it Biskets and

Carawaies.

12 oz (350 g) prunes

4 ox (100 g) fresh white breadcrumbs

=BD pint (275 ml) red wine

1 tsp (5 ml) cinnamon

1 tsp (5 ml) ground ginger

3 oz (75 g) sugar

1 T (15 ml) rosewater

Short (not flaky) Pastry sheets

Soak the prunes overnight. Line a pie dish with the pastry and bake blind

(ie line pastry with greaseproof paper and fill with beans or ceramic baking

beads) at GM 7, 425 degrees F/220 degrees C for 15 minutes. Remove paper and beans/beads.

Simmer the prunes in a little water for 10 - 15 minutes until tender. Drain

and stone the prunes then blend them with the other ingredients to form a

smooth thick paste. Spoon the filling into the pastry case, and return to

the oven to bake at GM 4, 350 degrees F/180 degrees C for 1 hour 30 minutes. Serve either hot or cold.

Ciao

Lucrezia

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin

Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald

Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 18:44:02 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: plums in plum pudding

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Makes sense, but I wonder at what point "prune" came to mean "dried

> plum", when it used to mean, to English-speakers, a variety of plum

> that frequently comes to us imported in dried form.

> Adamantius

Prunes are several varieties of plums, and modernly, particular hybrids

developed for drying.

"Prunus" (or "prunum") is the Latin for plum, as well as being scientific

name for the genera of plums. It appears in a number of forms in European

languages. Plum appears to be a derivative of the Latin neuter plural,

"pruna," apparently entering English from Old Low German. Plum and

prune are interchangable until late in SCA period.

The dried fruit was originally referred to as "dried plums" or "drie prunis"

(from a 14th Century reference). By the 15th or 16th Century, prune was

being used to refer to the dried fruit.

Curiously, prune was also used to refer to raisins in Victoria's day.

Bear

Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 18:02:58 -0800 (PST)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: plums in plum pudding

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Here is what the Oxford Companion to Food says in

part about plums and prunes:

PLUM, the fruit of Prunus domestica and other

Prunus ssp. Other members of the genus include

the apricot, peach, sloe, and cherry. The

relationship between plums and cherries is

particularly close, the distinction being mainly

one of size.

The word 'plum' has a long history of often

ill-defined use. In the Middle Ages it seems to

have meant virtually any dried fruit, including

raisins, and this usage underlies names such as

'plum pudding' and 'plum cake'. Francesca

Greenoak, in her highly readable chapter on the

plum family, discusses this point in relation to

Christmas (plum) pudding, and suggests that

raisins had already supplanted plums before

Little Jack Horner (whose rhyme dates from the

16th Century) 'stuck in this thumb'; so that what

he pulled out was in fact a raisin.

Wild plums of several kinds are common throughout

the temperate parts of the northern hemisphere.

The earliest cultivation of plums, which took

place in China, was of the species P. salicina,

usually called 'Japanese plum' because it first

came to the notice of western botanists in Japan.

It seems likely that P. domestica, the most

important source of modern commercial cultivars,

is indigenous to Central Europe; but the time and

manner of its origin are uncertain. This plum

does not seem to have been noticed by classical

Greek authors, nor by Roman authors in the

centuries BC. Pliny the Elder (1st century AD)

commented with surprise that the earlier writer

Cato (for example) had not mentioned plums and

explains that by his own time there was a 'vast

throng' of them; he enumerated a dozen distinct

types.

Records survive which indicate that plums were

cultivated in the gardens of medieval monasteries

in England. Chaucer refers to a garden with

'ploumes' and 'bulaces'. The number of varieties

had increased considerably by the time of Gerard

(1633), who mentions having 'three score sorts in

my garden and all strange and rare'. Two of his

main groups are the common damson and the

'Damascen Plum'. His account shows that new

varieties were being imported from many European

countries. Some of the best came from the

Balkans and S. Europe; he praises those in

Moravia in particular ...

PRUNE, the French word for plum, means in English

a dried plum. The word has been used in English

in this sense since medieval times, although for

several centuries it could also, confusingly,

mean a fresh plum.

Prunes all come from a group of oval,

black-skinned plums. Their special

characteristics are a very high level of sugar,

which allows them to be sun dried without

fermenting (although nowadays the process is

often speeded by drying machinery) and a 'free'

or easily detached stone, which is uncommon among

plums. Prunes turn completely black in drying as

a result of enzyme action. This would be

considered unacceptable in any other fruit, but

is deemed normal in prunes ...

The OCF goes on with comments about Prune d'Agen,

which is French, but does not talk about Italian

prunes whatsoever.

Huette

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:35:12 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] greengage plums

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> While at the grocery store the other day, I noticed that they had

> greengage plums and I got all excited and bought some. And now, true to

> form, I have no idea what to do with them.

> Does anybody have any ideas?

> Margaret

Eat them--they're yummy.

They should still be in season by Pennsic--at least, ours generally

come ripe when we are gone on our Pennsic trip--so bring them if you

are coming. They are supposed to be period or close.

David Friedman

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:41:10 -0400

From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] greengage plums

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Jul 14, 2004, at 11:47 AM, Pixel, Goddess and Queen wrote:

> I was more looking for something cooked. Something along the lines of

> "I've made X from Y with plums and it was really good" or similar. There

> is a scarcity of plum recipes in my period cookery library, and I don't

> remember the family's traditional plum kuchen being made with

> greengages (nor do I have the recipe, darn it all).

While it's not the correct variety of plum for this recipe, it should

still be reasonably close.

To make a tarte of damsons.

Take damsons and boyle theym in wyne,

eyther red or claret, and put there to a dosen

of peares, or els whyte bread, too make

theym styffe wyth all, then drawe theym up

wyth the yolkes of syxe egges and swete

butter and so bake it.

Source: A Proper newe Booke of Cokerye (mid-16th c.)

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/bookecok.htm

- Doc

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)

http://www.medievalcookery.com/

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:53:49 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] greengage plums

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I was more looking for something cooked. Something along the lines of

> "I've made X from Y with plums and it was really good" or similar. There

> is a scarcity of plum recipes in my period cookery library, and I don't

> remember the family's traditional plum kuchen being made with greengages

> (nor do I have the recipe, darn it all).

> Margaret

I've only made the following with dried plums,

but it's for either fresh or dried:

70 A tart with plums, which can be dried or fresh (Sabina Welserin)

Let them cook beforehand in wine and

strain them and take eggs, cinnamon and sugar.

Bake the dough for the tart. That is made like

so: take two eggs and beat them. Afterwards stir

flour therein until it becomes a thick dough.

Pour it on the table and work it well, until it

is ready. After that take somewhat more than half

the dough and roll it into a flat cake as wide as

you would have your tart. Afterwards pour the

plums on it and roll out after that the other

crust and cut it up, however you would like it,

and put it on top over the tart and press it

together well and let it bake. So one makes the

dough for a tart.

3/4 lb prunes--about 25

Wine 1 1/2 c red

2 Eggs

1 t Cinnamon

1 T Sugar

2 Eggs

1 1/2 c flour

Simmer the prunes in the wine for about 40

minutes, until they are quite soft. Remove the

pits, force them through a strainer. Add two

eggs, sugar, cinnamon.

Beat two more eggs well with a fork, then beat

and stir in about 1 1/2 c flour, gradually. Knead

the dough smooth. Divide in two slightly unequal

portions. Roll out the larger about 8"x12" oval.

Roll the smaller not quite as large, cut into

strips. Pour the prune goo onto the larger crust,

cover with a lattice made from the strips. Bake

at 325° for about 30-40 minutes.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:54:33 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] greengage plums

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> How do greengage plums differ from other plums?

They taste better.

David/Cariadoc

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:42:45 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] greengage plums

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> At 07:10 AM 7/15/04 -0500, Bear wrote:

>> Greengage plums are a variety of plum having skin color of greenish yellow

>> or yellowish green. They are named after Sir William Gage, an 18th Century

>> botanist, so I suspect they may be a post period hybrid.

> The modern tree could well be a post period

> hybrid but it would very likely develop from a

> yellow plum, possibly a native. I have a native

> plm (Klamath Plum, native to Western US) in my

> backyard. It is yellow but some other specimens

> around town are red. It would not surprise me

> to learn the both yellow and red plums were

> known to our ancestors.

My memory is that, according to the outhmeadow

Nursery catalog (they specialize in old and

unusual fruit tree varieties, and seem well

informed) the old name for the variety is "Reine

Claude," and it existed at least by the early

seventeenth century.

According to one online source:

"Calle Reine-Claude in France, after Claude, the

queen of François I, the greengage was brought to

Britain in 1724 by Sir William Gage. The

seedlings lost their labels en route, and soon

became known as greengages after their British

patron."

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:29:31 +1000

From: "Arglwyddes Rhiannahn" <rhaeader at bigpond.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] greengage plums

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

At Lochacs Midwinter Coronation the Lochac Cooks’ Guild held a

competition for preserves.

One entry presented was a preserve using greengage plums – the receipt was taken

from Elinor Fettiplace’s Receipt Book – pgs 128 – 132 To Preserve Plums or

Gooseberries

This tasted absolutely lovely

Rhiannahn

Lochac Cooks’ Guild Administrator

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:25:23 -0600

From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] greengage plums

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I made those (or something very similar) for a feast a few years ago,

only I opted to use fresh plum halves instead of the cooked puree I see

delineated below. Dunno why I left them whole like that (perhaps a

misreading of the recipe? perhaps expediency?), but they worked nicely.

I did them up as individually-sized tartlets.

--maire

David Friedman wrote:

> I've only made the following with dried plums, but it's for either

> fresh or dried:

> 70 A tart with plums, which can be dried or fresh (Sabina Welserin)

> Let them cook beforehand in wine and strain them and take eggs,

> cinnamon and sugar. Bake the dough for the tart. That is made like so:

> take two eggs and beat them. Afterwards stir flour therein until it

> becomes a thick dough. Pour it on the table and work it well, until it

> is ready. After that take somewhat more than half the dough and roll it

> into a flat cake as wide as you would have your tart. Afterwards pour

> the plums on it and roll out after that the other crust and cut it up,

> however you would like it, and put it on top over the tart and press it

> together well and let it bake. So one makes the dough for a tart.

Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 08:44:22 -0400

From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plums was: Lammas 1005 menu

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

According to Hagen, plum and sloe stones have been recovered at both York

and Gloucester. They may have had a variety similar to damsons. So

it's not unreasonable to have plums in Dublin.

Cynara

Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:34:03 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Plums and Irish

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Plants & People in Ancient Scotland by Dickson & Dickson (2000)

notes that in digs around Edinburgh Castle in 1984-91,

"A fragment of Plum or Bullace type stone was also found". This was

dated to 100 to 300 AD.

I read this as being these were Prunus institia or bullace plums.

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:57:49 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Plums and Irish

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Dug out my copy Mabey's Flora Britannica. Mabey notes that "It is possible that

the tree known as the bullace (P. domestica ssp. insititia) with large

sloe-like fruits is native in woodlands in Britain. But its fruits are barely

distinguishable from naturalised, dark fruited damsons."

He notes that some are relect or bird sown and some trees found today are

crosses between the blackthorn and various sweeter flavored Asian plums that

were introduced more recently.

Johnnae

> Plants & People in Ancient Scotland by Dickson & Dickson (2000)

> notes that in digs around Ednburgh Castle in 1984-91,

> "A fragment of Plum or Bullace type stone was also found". This was

> dated to 100 to 300 AD.

> I read this as being these were Prunus insititia or bullace plums.

> Johnnae

Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:19:32 +0200

From: UlfR <ulfr at hunter-gatherer.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Plums and Irish

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

UlfR <ulfr at hunter-gatherer.org> [2005.08.08] wrote:

> Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> [2005.08.07] wrote:

>> Were I looking for further evidence to support or refute the

>> contention, I

>> would look at what information is available on the diet of Viking Era

>> Dublin.

> I have a sleeping child on my shoulder, else I could check a PhD thesis

> on viking age plant food I've got lying around.

The child has woken up and I have found the book :-/

Sounce:

Ann-Marie Hansson "On Plant Food in the Scandinavian Peninsula in Early

Medieval Times" Thesis at Archaelogical Research Laboratory (Stockholm

University) 1997

She lists that there was traces of "Prunus sp." found in Birka. Most of

the thesis was on bread (with some work on hops and plant food remains

from a couple of sited. No idea what Prunus species, though.

/UlfR

UlfR Ketilson ulfr at hunter-gatherer.org

Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:54:47 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plums

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Italian plums (or Naples plums) are a sweet varietal of Prunus domesticus (sometimes appearing as P. cocomilia). They grow regionally in SE Europe, Italy, the Balkans, Greece and into Turkey. There is also the consideration that the "Italian plums" may be even more generic being any plum from

Italy.

"...and the blond plums of autumn..." is a phrase that appears in the

elegaic poem "Copa" from the Appendix Vergiliana (1st Century BCE). So they may be of European origin, even if they are being used in Japan. We don't know when they arrived.

Japan has a number of long cultivated, if not indigenous, plum species and varietals.

I haven't seen any references to plum wine in medieval Europe, but the national drink of Serbia is slivovitz and I'm willing to bet they were drinking plum wine before they made plum brandy.

Bear

> Selene commented:

> <<< I want a big bucket of the red ones to do more plum wine, the last batch

> [which I hoard fervently] came out better than the best plum wine you ever

> had at a Japanese restaurant. My mother calls them ?Italian plums? but I

> wonder if they are not actually Japanese, particularly the golden

> ones. >>>

> I've heard of plum wine before, but it has always been mentioned in

> connection to Japan.

> Do we have evidence of plum wine being made in medieval Europe?

> Perhaps it just that a lot more grapes were grown than plums, so

> grape wine was more prevalent? Does/did Japan grow grapes? If not,

> perhaps that would also be a reason that plum wines are more

> associated with Japan.

> Stefan

Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:42:02 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 'Tis the Season (for produce, not sillies)

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Can you share your recipe for the plum sauce? I have one and would

> like to compare the two...

> Kiri

Here's the one I used two years ago when we were awash in plums:

from _Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_

Ciiij. Bolas.?Take fayre Bolasse, wasshe hem clene, & in Wyne boyle hem ?at

?ey be but skaldyd bywese, & boyle hem alle to

pomppe,<http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?

c=cme;cc=cme;rgn=main;view=trgt;lvl=1;idno=CookBk;id=DLPS62;note=inline>

& draw hem ?orw a straynoure, & a-lye hem with flowre of Rys, & make it

chargeaunt, & do it to ?e fyre, & boyl it; take it of, & do ?er-to whyte

Sugre, gyngere, Clowys, Maces, Canelle, & stere it wyl to-gederys: ?anne

take gode perys, [leaf 19 bk.] & sethe hem wel with ?e Stalke, & sette hem

to kele, & pare hem clene, and pyke owt ?e corys; ?an take datis, & wasshe

hem clene, & pyke owt ?e Stonys, & fylle hem fulle of blaunche poudere: ?an

take ?e Stalke of ?e Perys, take ?e Bolas, & ley .iij. lechys in a dysshe, &

sette ?in perys ?er-yn.

Very tasty, and acidic enough that I canned it like applesauce.

Yummyummyummy on pork or chicken...

'Lainie (we have another 3 weeks or so until ours are ripe)

Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:39:59 -0400

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I started looking at this recipe from translating the word

"Latwergen" which means a spiced fruit syrup or puree. The word is

related to "electuary", a medicinal paste mixed with jam or syrup for

oral consumption.

Rumpolt calls this Plum Confect, but the recipe calls for cherries.

It could be a typo, but I used plums, which were cheaper. Plums that

you cook down and keep in a jar sounds like plum butter to me. I

found a very similar modern recipe and changed the spices to the ones

called in Rumpolt.

The recipe is called a Confect, but the ones after is say "Du magst

auch wohl ein solche Latwerge machen von Hollunderbeer" "You might

also make such a Latwerge from elderberries", or from sloes, or apples.

There is another reference to Latwergen in Von Spicen, that is a

candy that you roll out and cut into pieces.

http://www.advancenet.net/jscole/maidens.htm

I cut the plums in half, removed the stone, and cooked the plums

until soft. I thought the texture would be better without the

skins, so I peeled them, processed in the food processor. There were

still visible pieces of skin, so I ran it though a sieve. A food

mill would be even better but it only took half an hour to peel and

puree the plums. It looked pretty much like pink applesauce.

So far so good. But I had added too much water, I was afraid it

would boil off and burn, but I think it would have been fine. The

puree tasted good but was very thin. And it filled the slow cooker

to the top. I let it cook down until there was room to add the sugar

and it was back to the top.

It was still very thin. By now it had been cooking 24 hours, and

tasted decidedly like prunes... not quite what I intended. And was

still pretty thin.

So it cooked some more, just an inch down from the top. Now it was

still quite thin, but down right black... and tasted like burned

prunes. Yechhh.

I washed it down the drain and will try again tomorrow with a new

batch of plums. I'm going to set up a steamer, I think, and no added

water at all. And try a slow oven to reduce the puree. I don't

think the slow cooker had enough surface area. I may even get a food

mill, which is what this recipe really needs. Any other suggestions?

Ranvaig

Pflaumen Confect - Plum butter

6 lb plums, 1 c water, 6 c. cane sugar, 2 tsp cinnamon, 1/2 tsp

ground cloves.

Wash the plums, cut in half and remove the stones. Cook until the

fruit is soft, about an hour. Press through a food mill or sieve to

puree and remove the skins. Or you can leave the skins on and puree

in a food processor. Wild plums have a bitter skin that should be

removed. Measure the puree and add an equal amount of sugar and the

spices.

Cook in a crock pot on low for 8 hours, uncover and cook for another

hour until very thick. When you put a spoonful on a plate, no water

should separate out.

Rumpolt Confect 23. Ungarische Pflaumen Confect / es sei wei? oder

braun. Nimm die sauren Weichesl / und thu die Stengel darvon / setz

sie in einem Kessel auf dz Feuwer oder Kolen / und la? auf sieden /

denn sie geben von sich selbst Saft genug. Wenn sie kalt sein / so

streich sie durch ein H?rin Tuch / thu sie in ein uberzindten

Fischkessel / und setz auf Kolen / la? sieden / und r?rs umb / da?

nicht anbrennet. Und wenns halb eingesotten ist / so nimm gestossenen

Zimt und Nelken darunter / machs wohl f?? mit Zucker / und la? darmit

sieden / bi? wohl dick / setz hinweg / und la? kalt werden / so

kanstu es aufheben / so helt sichs ein Jar oder zwei.

Hungarian Plum Preserves/ be it white or brown. Take the sour

cherries/ and take the stems from it/ set them in a kettle over the

fire or coals/ and let simmer/ until they give from themselves enough

juice. When it is cold then strain it through a hair cloth/ put them

in a tinned fishkettle/ and set on coals/ let simmer/ and stir up/

that it doesn't burn. And when it is half cooked/ then take a little

ground cinnamon and cloves in it/ make well sweet with sugar/ and let

simmer together/ until it well thickened/ take away/ and let cool/ so

you can lift it/ and keep it in a jar or two.

Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:13:23 -0700

From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

My suggestion is NO WATER.

I use plum puree and sugar in equal amounts and it comes out lovely.

Occasionally a scant shake of ground cloves.

Selene

ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote:

> I started looking at this recipe from translating the word

> "Latwergen" which means a spiced fruit syrup or puree. The word

> is related to "electuary", a medicinal paste mixed with jam or

> syrup for oral consumption.

Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:32:03 -0700

From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Vitaliano Vincenzi wrote:

> Pardon my naivety, but if the translation calls them "sour cherries",

> why are you using plums? I don't get the connection - which is

> probably my inexperience with period recipes as of yet, but can you

> explain the connection? Thank you.

They are closely related botanically, of the Genus Prunus, and behave

similarly when cooked. Evidently the plums were more readily

available. [They are for me too -- my parents have plum trees.] I'd

love to try this with fresh cherries though, maybe next year.

Selene

Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:21:53 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Are you using the red plums? This would make better sense if the recipe

calls for sour cherries, as red plums are usually tart.

-----Original Message-----

They are closely related botanically, of the Genus Prunus, and behave

similarly when cooked. Evidently the plums were more readily

available. [They are for me too -- my parents have plum trees.] I'd

love to try this with fresh cherries though, maybe next year.

Selene

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:09:01 -0400

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Pardon my naivety, but if the translation calls them "sour cherries",

> why are you using plums? I don't get the connection - which is

> probably my inexperience with period recipes as of yet, but can you

> explain the connection? Thank you.

>> Pflaumen Confect - Plum butter

Well, the translation is my own. But the recipe TITLE is Plum

confect. Why would Rumpolt make plum butter with cherries? Perhaps

they were more available to him. But I'm assuming that a recipe

called Plum was, at least sometimes, made with plums.

And plums are 99 cents pound, while cherries are 3.99.

Ranvaig

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:49:42 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> Pardon my naivety, but if the translation calls them "sour cherries",

>> why are you using plums? I don't get the connection - which is

>> probably my inexperience with period recipes as of yet, but can you

>> explain the connection? Thank you.

>>> Pflaumen Confect - Plum butter

> Well, the translation is my own. But the recipe TITLE is Plum confect.

> Why would Rumpolt make plum butter with cherries? Perhaps they were more

> available to him. But I'm assuming that a recipe called Plum was, at

> least sometimes, made with plums.

> And plums are 99 cents pound, while cherries are 3.99.

> Ranvaig

The term "Weichsel" is a shortened version of "Weichselkirsche." While

commonly used to refer to cherries (Kirsch) the term also refers to the

River Vistula in specific and Poland in general. I think what it being

stated is to use Polish plums.

BTW, and obsolete term for plums is Rosine, which is modern German for

raisin.

Bear

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:20:22 +0200 (CEST)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> "Plum" may not refer at all to a fruit, but to a

> translation of "good" as in plum pudding.

I don't think that works in German. 'Pflaume' has all

menner of modern and historical slang meanings, but

'good' is not really one I'm familiar with.

> I am also >curious if anyone else sees this turning

> more into a marmalade sort of affair . . . or is it

> my own prejudice of having made it in the past, and

> thinking jams/jelies are right out (I suspect that

> is my prjudice showing through). The pouring into a

> tinned fish kettle and "so you can lift it out"

> appears. Really thick 'paste' came right to mind.

I made 'confect' like that a while ago (apples and

apricots) and it turned out thick and heavily gelled.

I'd say more like an electuary than a modern breakfast

'jelly'. I do suspect that that was the idea, a

variation on the theme of fashionable cotignac.

Giano

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:07:53 -0400

From: silverr0se at aol.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I agree with Selene - no water. Put the cut plums in a heavy pot,

cover them with sugar and put on a VERY low heat. The juice from the

plums will dissolve the sugar, then you can increase the heat. I

leave the skins on during cooking for the color, then remove them

later, but I do not puree the fruit.

I think the "prune-y" taste developed from cooking it too long. I

used the recipe from Eleanor Fettiplace's Receipt Book - since I

don't have the timing memorized, you might want to check in there.

If the jam doesn't work, check out the Florileium article I wrote on

making Sugar Plums.

Renata

<<< My suggestion is NO WATER.

I use plum puree and sugar in equal amounts and it comes out lovely.

Occasionally a scant shake of ground cloves.

Selene >>>

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:06:01 +0200 (CEST)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rosine was Plum Butter

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Rumpolt most often refers to "kleine schwarze

> Rosein". But also to "schwartze Rosein", "kleine

> Rosein", and in a few places to "grosse Rosein". I

> had taken the small raisins to be what we call

> currents. Could they perhaps be regular raisins and

> the "grosse Rosein" be dried plums?

It's possible, but I would doubt it. The usual term

for these would be duerre Pflaumen or Doerrpflaumen,

and Rumpoldt makes reference to dried fruit elsewhere

(can't recall plums, but apples definitely). Raisins

come in a wide variety of shapes, shades and sizes. A

good cook might well include in his instructions which

kind to use (to this day, a really good food retailer

in Germany will be able to sell you regular raisins

(Rosinen), currants (Korinthen) and white raisins

(Weinbeeren).

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:44:51 -0700

From: "K C Francis" <katiracook at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Round one - Plum Butter

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I just made a recipe called Plum Pudding with Pears. Plums cooked down in

red wine, strained of skin and pits, thickened with rice flower and seasoned

with sugar and spices. It was served at a feast and my batch was just as

good. It was decorated with cutouts from thin slices of ripe pear. We have

since decided it is excellent on french toast, spread on crisp wafers, and

would be wonderful spooned over ice cream. The consistancy is quite like

apple butter, the thick homemade kind, not the runny store bought stuff.

Here is what was posted on West-Cooks:

Plum Pudding with Pears

Page 24-25 .Ciiij. Bolas.

Take fair plums, wash them clean, & in wine boil them that they be

but scalded byweese [in a small amount of wine?], & boil them all to

pulp, & draw them through a strainer, & add to them rice flour, &

make it thick, & do it to the fire, & boil it; take it off & add to

it white sugar, ginger, cloves, maces, canel & stir it well together;

then take good pears & seethe them well with the stalk & set them to

cool & pare them clean, and pick out the cores; then take dates and

wash them clean, and pick out the stones, & fill them with white

powder: then take the stalk of the pears, take the Plum-Pudding & ley

iii slices in a dish, & set the pears there in.

Ingredients for plum pudding:

13 small plums with seeds

2 cups red wine (Red Beaijolais)

1/2 cup rice flour

1 cup sugar – may need less if using a sweeter wine

1/4 teaspoon ginger

1/8 teaspoons Cloves

1/8 teaspoons Mace

1 teaspoons Cinnamon

Ingredients for non-pudding garnishes:

pears, cut into fanciful shapes

Scully's Fine spice powder *

Process:

Simmer whole plums in wine until they break down. Strain the pulp. I

ended up with about 4 cups of plum sauce. Add the rice flour and cook

until thick. Add sugar and spices.

When it was hot/warm the spices were not as prevalent. As it cooled

they were stronger. If we are serving this warm we may want to add

more spice.

To serve, arrange pear shapes on top and sprinkly with a small amount

of spice powder.

* Fine Spice Powder:

3 tablespoons ground ginger

1 1/2 tablespoons cinnamon

1 teaspoon grains of paradise

1 teaspoon ground cloves

2 tablespoons sugar

(from Early French Cookery; D.E Scully and T. Scully)

Plum pudding redaction: Lady Anna Serre

The plum pudding was taken from

_Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books (1430-1450)_, Thomas

Austin, editor., Early English Text Society, Oxford University

Press, 1964

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:57:50 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Damson Plums

<<< I will be getting a good supply of damson plums

soon. I will be making candied plums and jam. Do

any of you have any additional suggestions?

For those who don't know, damsons are a period

variety of plum and are quite tasty.

Juana Isabella

West >>>

70 A tart with plums, which can be dried or fresh (Sabina Welserin)

Let them cook beforehand in wine and

strain them and take eggs, cinnamon and sugar.

Bake the dough for the tart. That is made like

so: take two eggs and beat them. Afterwards stir

flour therein until it becomes a thick dough.

Pour it on the table and work it well, until it

is ready. After that take somewhat more than half

the dough and roll it into a flat cake as wide as

you would have your tart. Afterwards pour the

plums on it and roll out after that the other

crust and cut it up, however you would like it,

and put it on top over the tart and press it

together well and let it bake. So one makes the

dough for a tart.

3/4 lb prunes--about 25

Wine 1 1/2 c red

2 Eggs

1 t Cinnamon

1 T Sugar

2 Eggs

1 1/2 c flour

Simmer the prunes in the wine for about 40

minutes, until they are quite soft. Remove the

pits, force them through a strainer. Add two

eggs, sugar, cinnamon.

Beat two more eggs well with a fork, then beat

and stir in about 1 1/2 c flour, gradually. Knead

the dough smooth. Divide in two slightly unequal

portions. Roll out the larger about 8"x12" oval.

Roll the smaller not quite as large, cut into

strips. Pour the prune goo onto the larger crust,

cover with a lattice made from the strips. Bake

at 325? for about 30-40 minutes.

We did it with dried plums (i.e. prunes), but the

recipe offers the alternative of fresh plums.

If you do get good damson plum recipes, let me

know--I have two or three damson plum bushes,

although not yet big enough to bear.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 18:00:51 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Damson Plums

<<< For those who don't know, damsons are a period variety of plum and are

quite tasty.

Juana Isabella >>>

Damson actually applies to several varieties, some of which may not be all

that ancient. The particular damsons (damascenes) to which you refer are

the subspecies Prunus insititia. Also known as bullace plums.

Bear

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:08:51 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Damson Plums

from Delights for Ladies (England, 1609)

8 - The most kindely way to preserve plums, cherries, gooseberries,

&c. You must first purchase some reasonable quantity of their owne

juyce, with a gentle heat upon embers, in pewter dishes, dividing the

juice still as it commeth in the strewing; then boile each fruit in

his own juyce, with a convenient proportion of the best refined sugar.

31 - To make Marmelade of Quinces or Damsons. When you have boyled

your Quinces or Damsons sufficiently, straine them; then dry the pulp

in a pan on the fire; and when you see there is no water in it, but

that it beginneth to be stiffe, then mix two pound of sugar with three

pound of pulp: this marmelade will bee white marmelade: and if you

desire to have it looke with an high colour: put your sugar and your

pulp together so soone as your pulp is drawne, and let them both boile

together, and so it will look of the colour of ordinary marmelade,

like unto a stewed warden; but if you dry your pulp first, it will

look white, and take lesse sugar: you shall know when it is thick

enough, by putting a little into a sawcer, letting it coole before you

box it.

Or from

The Treasurie of commodious Conceits which I made available last

spring (England, 1573 - )

The original source can be found at MedievalCookery.com

Plummes condict in Syrrope Chapter. xv.

TAke halfe a pounde of Suger, halfe a pint of Rosewater and a pinte of

fayre Raynewater, or of some other distilled water, seeth ye Suger &

ye two waters vpo a softe fyre of coles, till ye one halfe be

consumed: the take it fro ye fire & when it leaueth boylig, put therin

halfe a pound of ripe Damazines, or other plummes, & let it agayne on

the embers, & kepe it in the lyke heate tyll the plummes be softe by

the space of an howre if neede bee, then put into it some cloues

brused and when it is coulde keepe it in a Glasse, or in an earthen or

Gallypotte, the stronger the Syrrope is with Suger, the better it wyll

continew. Some put into the Syrroup Sinimon, Saunders, Nutmegges,

Cloues, and a little Ginger: seethe them not hastely for feare of

muche breaking.

OR another from the same source:

To keepe Damsins in syrop. TAke Damsins & picke them wt a knife, or a

pi the take clarified Suger as much as you shall thinke wil serue &

then you must boyle it til it be as thick as birdlime: Then boyle your

Damsins in ye clarified sugre, til they be soft, the take the vp, and

put them in a glasse, then you must boyle ye syrop, till it be thick

as ye other was, before you put in ye Damsins, & as soone as it is so

thick you muste powre it into the Damsins and so couer them close.

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 17:03:33 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Damson Plums

I don't know if when you say candied plums, you actually mean sugar plums, or not. If you want to read a good article about them, go the to Boke of Good Cookerie and read the article and recipes he gives.

http://www.godecookery.com/friends/frec74.htm

Huette

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 17:44:41 -0700 (PDT)

From: Donna Green <donnaegreen at yahoo.com>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Damson Plums

Yes, that is the recipe I use for the candying process. It works well with cherries, plums, apricots, peaches and figs. And the by-product is a marvelous syrup that my sweetie turns into interesting cocktails.

Juana Isabella

West

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

<<< I don't know if when you say candied plums, you actually

mean sugar plums, or not.? If you want to read a good

article about them, go the to Boke of Good Cookerie and read

the article and recipes he gives.

http://www.godecookery.com/friends/frec74.htm

Huette >>>

From the fb "SCA Cooks" group:

Brigitte Webster

11/21/18

I am currently looking into the greengage and find various statements that Parkinson mentions it as 'VERDOCH' in his Paradisi in Sole in 1629 but I have looked through my hard copy 3 times now and either it is not mentioned or I am totally blind ! Has anybody spotted 'Verdoch' in Parkinson's or anywhere else ( pre 1700 ) ? Grateful for any hints ! Thank you !

Ethan Taylor

It would appear that you are looking for a variety of plum.

"The Verdoch plum is a great fine greene f(s)hining plum..."