shoes-msg - 5/24/11
Medieval footwear and SCA imitations.
NOTE: See also the files: boots-msg, shoes-lnks, p-shoes-msg, shoemaking-msg, leather-msg lea-tanning-msg, leather-dyeing-msg, 2Shod-a-Shire-art, merch-shoes-msg, shoes4combat-msg.
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NOTICE -
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
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Thank you,
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: duncan at rti.rti.org (Stephen Duncan)
Date: 5 Aug 91 14:10:19 GMT
Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC
I just saw a blurb from a British bookseller's catalog (HMSO) about
"Shoes and Pattens" by Francis Grewe and Margrethe de Neergaard.
Paraphrasing the blurb, a definitive account of a find of over a
thousand well-dated shoes from the 12th to the 15th centuries,
profusely illustrated with 166 photographs and line drawings.
The publisher is the Museum of London, ISBN 0 11 290443 2.
Paperback, 11.95 pounds sterling.
Steve Duncan
duncan at rti.rti.org
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 21 Aug 91 15:18:31 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago
Someone mentioned seeing a blurb for "Shoes and Pattens" by Grewe and
de Neergaard; we have the book and it is excellent.
Cariadoc
From: sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Shoes
Date: 16 Jul 1993 19:09:55 GMT
Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network
Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.
Parlan asks where to get SHOES AND PATTENS.
From Her Majesties Stationery Office, in London.
01-44-71-873-9090
They take VISA and MasterCard, and I think that ordering number is now
a 24 hour line.
--
Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia
Dennis R. Sherman Triangle Research Libraries Network
dennis_sherman at unc.edu Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
From: Dennis R. Sherman (7/22/93)
To: markh at terminator
RE>Shoes
>01-44-71-873-9090
>
>They take VISA and MasterCard, and I think that ordering number is now
>a 24 hour line.
>*******
>
>Is this the phone no. or the order number? Do you know what the price is?
Phone number -- international numbers look funny...
When I bought it, several years ago now, it was just over $20.
There's no telling what inflation and the exchange rate have done in
the meantime, but I'd be surprised if the price has more than doubled.
It actually doesn't matter -- if you're interested in doing historical
shoes, you need this book, no matter what it costs.
--
Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia
Dennis R. Sherman Triangle Research Libraries Network
dennis_sherman at unc.edu Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:09:03 EST
From: Therion <HZS at psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Foot/Combat Wear
Gawaine quests:
>could you or some other Gentle please direct me to where I can find
>"Shoes and Pattens"?
Try a library.
>>> isbn 0112904432
Museum of London.
Shoes and pattens / Francis Grew and Margrethe de Neergaard ;
illustrations by Susan Mitford. London : H.M.S.O., 1988.
vi, 145 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.
Series: Museum of London. Medieval finds from excavations in London ; 2.
At head of title: Museum of London.
Summaries in French and German.
Bibliography: p. 140-142.
1. Shoes England London History. 2. Sabots England London History. 3.
Costume England London History. 4. London (England) Social life and customs
To 1500. 5. London (England) Antiquities.
Therion
From: sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Foot/Combat Wear
Date: 12 Nov 1993 14:47:03 GMT
Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network"
Greetings to the rialto from Robyyan.
Gawaine Kilgore/Gregory Stapleton asks:
>could you or some other Gentle please direct me to where I can find
>"Shoes and Pattens"?
Francis Grew and Margrethe de Neergaard. _Shoes and Pattens_ (Medieval
Finds from Excavations in London v.2)_; London: Her Majesty's
Stationery Office, 1988. ISBN 0 11 290443 2
I know it is available at HMSO in London, and they take VISA and
Mastercard: phone 01-44-71-873-9090 which I think is a 24 hour order
line. I've heard it is available somewhere in the USA too, but
haven't paid attention to where.
--
Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia
Dennis R. Sherman Triangle Research Libraries Network
dennis_sherman at unc.edu Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
From: dpeek at cix.COMpulink.co.UK (David Peek)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Shoes and Pattens
Date: 3 Sep 1994 20:19:20 -0400
A few days ago I seem to remember that someone was being told that this book
is not availble.... In fact it has been reprinted this year.
Shoes and Pattens.
ISBN 0-11-290443-2 UK price 13.95 pounds
Printed by HMSO
Contact HMSO on: General Enquires = 071 873 9090 (sorry can't remember how
to render this in international form)
or by mail
HMSO Publications Centre,
PO Box 276,
LONDON
SW8 5DT
England
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gleason at scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason)
Subject: Re: Shoes and Pattens...
Organization: Loral Space and Range Systems, Sunnyvale, CA
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 1994 20:59:51 GMT
I just called UNIPUB in MD. They are the US Distributor of HMOS publications who
prints the S&P and other books. Shoes and Pattens is pack in print! And in stock!
I was so happy I ordered 2 copies. The cost is $24.95 + shipping (UPS).
They also have Dress Accessories at $95.95.
Numbers: 800-274-4888 (U.S.) and 800-233-0504 (Canada)
Parlan
------------------------------
Robert Gleason
>> gleason at scf28.scf.loral.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: rorice at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice)
Subject: Re: Footwear
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington IN
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 16:39:30 GMT
Shoes and Pattens: Medieval finds from Excavations in London
Francis Grew and Margrethe de Neergard; HMSO; London. 1988. ISBN 0 11
290443 2
This book has patterns and notes on construction techniques for
shoes from ca. 1250-1450 based on actual medieval shoes. It also has
numerous line drawings and photos of the archeological finds. It is the
single best book if you are interested in making medieval shoes.
Lothar
From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: CRAFTS: Shoemaking?
Date: 11 Oct 1994 20:28:03 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Keywords: crafts, shoes
on Clarisia's post: If your persona happens to be 15th c. and from the
area now known as the Netherlands and Belgium, the "mary-jane" style
China flat is a pretty good recreation of one style of women's footgear.
I have on my lap a reproduction of Brueghel's _The Peasant Dance_ (printed
in, of all places, Michael Jackson's _New World Guide to Beer_, p. 113).
Two dancing figures, a man and a woman, occupy the right foreground. The
woman's left leg is in the air, and the top of her shoe is clearly visible.
It is black, either fabric or thin leather (it appears to have most of
its shape determined by the foot it covers), and has a slipper shape held
to the foot by a thin strap across the top. The strap is held in place
by a buckle on the outer edge of the foot. Unfortunately, the sole
is not visible, and all other visible shoes in the painting look much
like leather soft oxfords. (The oxford-style shoe is worn by both sexes.)
At any rate, I'd be reluctant to lump that style of China flat in with
sneakers; it's far less offensive.
Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*
From: bubba at adolf.ludd.luth.se (U.J|rgen \hman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: CRAFTS: Shoemaking?
Date: 12 Oct 1994 13:53:26 +0100
Organization: Lulea University Computer Society - Ludd
Keywords: crafts, shoes
Greetings from Ulf....
In <37eebj$gbr at charm.gandalf.ca> ekenny at gandalf.ca (Erin Kenny GMSI) writes:
>The shoes I have been wearing to events have finally died, and they are not
>replaceable (I bought them at a market in Santiago, Chile, and it's a little
>expensive to go there just to buy shoes). I HATE the idea of wearing sneakers
>or "china flats" to events.
>Does anyone have any suggestions. I would cheerfully make my own, but I
>haven't the foggiest idea where to start. If someone could start me out with
>some helpful hints, I would really appreciate it.
>Thanx
>Claricia
A quite simple shoe that can be made to look quite advanced is made from
three pieces. A sole, an upper-/frontpiece and a backpiece.
A pair of lasts could be a good help as well.
It's of course a question of what period you want the shoe to be from.
I want to recommend you to use a good sole-leather for the sole, and if
you're walking a lot on concrete or asphalt you should glue on a (brrrrrr)
rubber-/latexsole (please forgive me) to keep the shoes from getting
worn out to soon.
||\
|| \
1-->|| \
|| \
|| |<--2
|| |
|| | This shoe is seen from the side "standing" on its heel.
||\ / It's a sole(1), the upper-/frontpiece(2) and the backpiece(3).
|| \/ (Known World Handbook 3rd edition page 41)
|| \
|| \<--3
||____|
I hope this is of some help / Ulf
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ulf Mj|dtunga * U.J|rgen \hman
Frostheim(where frogs live, NOT)* U.Joergen Oehman (NHL-spelling)
Barony of Nordmark *
Kingdom of Drachenwald * bubba at ludd.luth.se
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re; Crafts: Shoemaking?
Date: 12 Oct 1994 09:55:12 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Claricia:<ekenny at gandalf.ca (Erin Kenny GMSI)>
>Does anyone have any suggestions. I would cheerfully make my own, but I
>haven't the foggiest idea where to start. If someone could start me out with
>some helpful hints, I would really appreciate it.
Until I can get a chance to write up a full article on it (a week or so tops,
I hope), I can give you a basic idea of what to do.
If the shoes you've been using are still in existance, that's great. You have
two options:
Option 1:
Step 1 - very carefully dissasemble one of them along its seams.
Step 2 - Using this as a pattern, mark out a pattern on a bit of leather
For the uppers, I'd suggest something soft, for the sole I'd suggest
thickish vegetable tanned cow hide. Be sure to place a bit of seam
allowance in the uppers, especially along where the sole will attach.
A bit of seam allowance around the sole is not a bad idea as well.
Step 3 - Cut a welt. This is a strip of leather that will go between
the upper and the sole. Make it at least the circumference of the sole
long and at least 3/4 an inch wide (it's more than you actually need,
but better safe than sorry.)
Step 4 - Stich the upper together (Unless you are doing boots, in which
case, save the legs for last
Step 5 - Turn the upper inside out, and the sole topside out. You will
want to stitch the uppers to the BOTTOM of the Sole, with the welt sand
wiched between them:
___/
------
----------
When you are finished, you should have what looks like a shoe turned in
side out.
Step 6 - Turn the shoe right side out. If you have to (and if you made
the uppers from anything stiffer than calfskin, you may have to), soak
the shoe in water before turning it.
Option 2:
Step 1 - Carefully separate the uppers from the sole.
Step 2 - Cut a new sole and welt.
Step 3 - Assemble as above.
Note: While you can actually wear it at this stage, I'd advise placing
a more firm sole on it. You should be able to take it to any shoemaker/
cobbler in your location to put one on (I'm trying to convince my wife's
champion that he needs those thick waffle stomper soles to fight in) -
or you can do it yourself. If you want heels, you will have to find
someone who can do it for you, however heels as a rule aren't period.
Sole leather is a matter of taste. You can buy some from most Tandys (although
the new manager at mine has never heard of it), or you can use regular leather.
I use 2-3 layers of 8-10oz Hide, glued together, then stiched to the welt,
which ought to be sticking out all around the soul.
Some people soak the sole before attaching it, then hammer it flatter and more
compressed. I personally think that this is a waste of time as walking on it
will do the same thing with less effort, but that's just me.
That's it.
A simple scholar,
Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Shire of Northkeep, Kingdom of Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: CRAFTS: Period Shoes
Date: 19 Oct 1994 01:06:42 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Thought I'd toss in something (it has to do with embroidery---surprise,
surprise.)
EGI Christie's seminal work _English Medieval Embroidery_ includes photos
of three early 13th c. cloth sandals/buskins. Two were taken from the tomb
of Archbishop Hubert Walter (see p. 57) and one from that of St. Edmund of
Canterbury (p. 65). All three are constructed, it seems, the same way. They
seem to be three-piece: a sole, a piece that covers the instep, and a piece
that forms the back. The back-piece forms a complete hoop around the ankle.
I'll attempt some ASCII art:
------------
| |
| --------
| | \
| | \-------
| | \
|___|______________________\
The interior line is the seam. In the case of the buskins, the top edge just
continues up and is finished at the top with a drawstring.
Here's the verbal description for the sandals from the St. Edmund tomb:
"The ground-fabric of the sandals is rose twill silk, upon which a pattern of
scrolling foliage is worked in gold. The soles of the sandals are made of
patterned woven silk."
The upper seam is turned under. The seam holding sole to upper was apparently
worked from the "right" side; the join is slightly puckered. I can't see the
stitching, but the way the fabric is reacting is consistent with a whip-stitch.
I suspect that these were for wear inside the church only (remember, both
trombs are of Church offiofficials buried in their vestments.) The pattern on
the silk sole described above is easily seen in the photo: there appears to
have been very little wear. (Of course, the vestments could have been specially
produced for the burial.)
The embroidery, in all cases, is sumptuous. Walter's sandals are strewn with
foliated frets on the instep, surrounding loops, and the heel is embroidered
with a lion and vines. The buskins have six-pointed stars ofn the instep and
a lattice with crosses flory, escarbuncles, and eagles in the interstices.
As mentioned, Edmunds are covered with gold vines, with a charming tendril
border around the ankle.
Alison MacDermot
(Sorry about the typos; I have a bandaged finger. Never slice sushi if you're
trying to keep a cat out of the omelet at the same time.)
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: CRAFTS: Period Shoes
Date: 19 Oct 1994 13:10:56 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) writes:
|> >matches how the European shoe was cut. I've used this method chiefly for
|> >earlier period turn shoes (Viking style with seam down the center of the
|> >vamp and with seam at instep).....
|>
|> Errr, I'm not certain that this was *originally* a turn-shoe, which, for those
|> who have entered this conversation late, refers to those shoes that were sewn
|> inside out and then "turned" rightside out. Most of the early period shoes that
|> I've seen that have the Vamp seam (or a seam running over the top of the shoe,
|> down the centerline) were sewn from the outside.
|>
|> Turn shoes come about when you start sewing a sole to the upper, and your
|> mentioning of Poulaines (or long toed shoes) leads me to suspect that this
|> is what you meant by the "seam ot the instep".
|>
Drat it all! Why is it that you never notice what you're writing until AFTER
it's sent? What I meant to say was the TWO styles of Viking shoes I've made
are the style with the vamp seam, and the style with the seam at the instep.
I agree that the vamp seamed shoe need not be made as a true turn shoe. I'll
have to check my documentation to see if any of them have enough details about
the vamp seam to be able to tell whether any were sewn up 'inside out'. The
style with the seam at the instep was definitely sewn inside out.
Sorry about that.
Cheers, Balderik
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: CRAFTS: Period Shoes (was Leather Boots)
Date: 18 Oct 1994 14:43:57 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
<6175190 at LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM (Diane Kimball)>
>Just curious but... My father, grandfather, and many, other relatives were
>Master Shoemakers, though I never learned the trade. However, I remember
>hearing that shoes/boots were made exactly the same until recently. That is,
>there was no left or right distinction. Has anyone heard of this?
What they were referring to are what as known as "Straights", which first
appeared in 1605, according to some sources (Like Waterer) as a development
from the need for a stable platform for the Heels that had gradually developed
over the previous fifty years or so. Before that, there were no real heels,
but shoes came in Rights and Lefts.
A simple scholar,
Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Shire of Northkeep, Kingdom of Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: hallock at banyan.com (Sue Hallock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Crafts: Boots and Shoes
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:15:28
Organization: Banyan Systems Inc.
Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn (I. Marc Carlson) writes:
<snip>
>For "Based on Period Designs" you are going to have to do research. Decide
>on where and when you want your design to be from. As I mentioned, there are
>no period patterns currently available for BOOTs, but there are a number of
>sources for shoes.
>Foremost among these is a handy book called "Shoes and Pattens" by Francis
>Grew and Margrethe de Neergaarde (London: HMSO, 1988) from the series *Medieval
>finds from excavations in London*. However, it only covers up to about
>1450/1500.
>There is another, whose title escapes me, which discusses simple shoes and
>moccasins from the more Nordic lands.
Diarmuit,
I believe the book you are referring to is "Primitive Shoes: an
archaeological study based upon shoe finds from the Jutland Penninsula" by
Margrethe Hald.
Here are some other books with medieval shoes:
Swann, J. M. 1973. "Shoe fashions to 1600" Transactions of
the Museum Assistants' Group for 1973. no. 12: 14-24.
Thomas, S. 1980. Medieval Footwear from Coventry.
Thornton, J. H. 1973. "The examination of early shoes to 1600"
Transactions of the Museum Assistants' Group for 1973. no.
12: 2-13.
-- Kendra of Holly Oak
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Costuming and Boots
Date: 29 Jan 1995 13:37:01 -0600
Geoffry Mattias <From: mwl at celsiustech.se (Matt Larsen)>
>...[Stuff deleted]...
>...The catch, though, is that to form vegetable
>tanned leather well, you need lasts, and it's much more difficult
>to find predyed vegetable tanned leather :-( So whatever way you
>go is a tradeoff.
Just to mention it, I've NEVER used lasts when making shoes, even with
vegetable tanned leather.
>>>(3) Did boots of the 12th century have soles? What were they made of?
>I use the thickest vegetable tanned leather I can find. This usually
>goes by the name "saddle skirting" and is roughly 10-12 oz leather.
Multiple layers. Many people will saok the leather and beat it flat before
attaching them to the shoe, to give the sole maximum compression. Others
sew the uncompressed leather in place, and let the normal use patterns
shape the sole. It's your call.
N.B. A few years ago, when duplicating the "arrow spacers" from the _Mary
Rose_, my Tandy agent (Note to Balderik: It's the boot patterns, not the
Company, I have trouble with) sold me a bit of leather that was machine
compressed and half an inch thick, and was *specifically* for soles.
Unfortunately, my Tandy store recently changed managers and when I asked
the new one about it, he looked like I was insane. So, keep your eyes
open.
>Yeah, this is the bible for shoemakers. It includes sections on the
><stitching and construction techniques, as well as patterns from roughly
>the 12th c. through the mid 15th c. (most of them are later, particularly
>the boots, though). There's also a lot of information about how styles
>changed through that time period, which may well be usefull to you.
Note that the "Boots" in this book are strictly speaking "Ankle Boots"
or "Half Boots", although if you can figure a way to attach a "legging"
to them, it's a great place to start.
Ipse mera Eruditissimus, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Northkeep
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Costuming and Boots
Date: 31 Jan 1995 08:50:51 -0600
This was inadvertantly sent to me rather than the Rialto, and at the
author's request am forwarding it ...
Diarmuit
==============================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 01:11:15 -0800
From: cheval at ix.netcom.com (Jay Hoffman)
Subject: re: Costuming and Boots
Good Diarmuit,
>Just to mention it, I've NEVER used lasts when making shoes, even with
>vegetable tanned leather.
The vast majority of shoes and boots made in western Europe after the twelfth
century were assembled over a wooden form, or 'last'. Evidence indicates that
lasts were used as early as the ninth century. Any discussion on cordwaining (a
term coined after lasts were introduced) would be incomplete without considering
this construction method.
>Multiple layers. Many people will saok the leather and beat it flat before
>attaching them to the shoe, to give the sole maximum compression. Others
>sew the uncompressed leather in place, and let the normal use patterns
>shape the sole. It's your call.
All vegetable tanned leather available commercially (i.e., Tandy et al) has been
rolled and compressed. Additional compression through malleting comprimises the
quality of the fibers of the individual layer. You will probably achieve better
results by using skirting-weight leather and cutting your soles from the 'back'
edge of the hide (as opposed to the 'belly' edge).
While layering can be used in repairs (clump soles) and as pattens (Geoffrey
has used such a design for several years), I have found no evidence of layered
soles in a turn-shoe. If you have such documentation, I would be very excited
to see it.
>N.B. A few years ago, when duplicating the "arrow spacers" from the _Mary
>Rose_, my Tandy agent (Note to Balderik: It's the boot patterns, not the
>Company, I have trouble with) sold me a bit of leather that was machine
>compressed and half an inch thick, and was *specifically* for soles.
>
>Unfortunately, my Tandy store recently changed managers and when I asked
>the new one about it, he looked like I was insane. So, keep your eyes
>open.
If you have the good fortune of being able to work directly with a tannery, you
might be able to ask them to roll a particular hide for you for greater
compression. I was lucky enough to have the process demonstrated for me by a
friendly rep at Western Leather in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. You will probably
discover, however, that purchasing their standard hides (actually cut into
uniform sheets, measured in the more archaic 'irons', and priced at a premium),
will satisfy any soling requirements you might have.
>>Yeah, this is the bible for shoemakers. It includes sections on the
>><stitching and construction techniques, as well as patterns from roughly
>>the 12th c. through the mid 15th c.
>Note that the "Boots" in this book are strictly speaking "Ankle Boots"
>or "Half Boots", although if you can figure a way to attach a "legging"
>to them, it's a great place to start.
Plate No. 35 on page 24 depicts a side-lacing mid-calf boot dated late 13th/mid
14th C. Similar designs from the fifteenth C. are illustrated on page 42.
Yours in service and shoemaking,
Alfred of Carlyle, West Kingdom
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blackdog at netcom.com (David E. White)
Subject: Re: Costuming and Boots
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 01:24:58 GMT
: The vast majority of shoes and boots made in western Europe after the twelfth
: century were assembled over a wooden form, or 'last'. Evidence indicates that
: lasts were used as early as the ninth century. Any discussion on cordwaining (a
: term coined after lasts were introduced) would be incomplete without considering
: this construction method.
It is my impresion that the term Cordwainer refers to the use of Cordoban
leather and was later used to describe anyone who made boots or shoes.
By the way shoemakers are *NOT* Cobblers (in case you were laboring under
this usumption as so many do) they are Shoemakers, Bootmakers or Cordwainers.
Cobblers on the other hand only *FIX* shoes.
David White
blackdog at netcom.com
From: jkrissw at aol.com (JkrissW)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lasts (was Costuming and Boots)
Date: 3 Feb 1995 10:56:34 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
<<You see, I have a lot of lasts. Lots and lots.
>I find "turn shoes" have about as much in common with modern constructed
shoes
>and boots as a palfry with a motorcycle.
Yes, please. My information seems to suggest that "Lasts" didn't come
into vogue until 1600 with the advent of the heel.>>
This is quite possible. Being one of those with abysmally flat feet, I
need to build up a good arch in shoes/boots I make, and a local shoe
repair guy who does some custom shoemaking told me of a good (although
modern) to make a last for your own feet. It involves sacrificing an old
but good-fitting pair of shoes (I have an ancient and well-worn pair of
New Balances set aside for this experiment). You straighten several wire
coat hangers, and then start bending them to shape to criss-cross the
interior of your "sacrificial" shoes, being careful to not have them
distort the shape of the shoes. (I believe you'd first lace them shut,
having marked how tight the laces should be pulled when you had your feet
in them.) After you do this, you pour plaster in, and wait. After a day
or so (the plaster might not be COMPLETELY dry yet), you carefully cut the
shoes off. After it's completely dry, you sand and smooth the plaster,
and the guy I mentioned likes to cement a cover of thin suede to the sole
and other parts of the last. I'm going to use this technique on my next
pair of boots.
Kriss/Daveed
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blackdog at netcom.com (David E. White)
Subject: Re: Costuming and boots
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 02:52:43 GMT
: I hate the moccasin's too. Are we talking about the same thing? I know we've
: talked about this before. The plains indian pattern is not a mocassin, but a
: turn shoe with the
: sole and vamp sewn exactly as a European turn shoe, except for the placement
: of the vamp seam at the heel. Maybe I like using it because I'm totally useless
Europeaqn turn shoes were made with an edge flesh seam. The thread
passes through the upper enters the sole on the *edge* and out on the
flesh side.
* upper
* :
* thread
* : :
* : *SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
* . *.: sole
* * SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
David white
blackdog at netcom.com
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Note on Shoes
Date: 29 Jan 1995 13:45:14 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
As long as I'm at it, just as note to the later period among us,
The _Mary Rose_ book (whose author escapes me, but its the book on
the dig itself) has a "pattern" of a Tudor era shoe. I haven't tried
to reproduce it myself, since I'm trying to practice what I preach
and have been returning to my earlier Period "roots" garb-wise :)
It doesn't look that hard, though.
Also, Noel Hume in his book on the "Martin's Hundred" dig in Virginia
(c.1622) describes a shoe that is essentially an upper nailed to a
wooden sole. He also describes the standard shoes as still being heel-
less other than extra bits sewn into an otherwise flat sole. While
raised heels were available in 1622, they were not, as yet, common.
Ipse mera Eruditissimus, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Northkeep
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blackdog at netcom.com (David E. White)
Subject: Re: Lasts (was Costuming and boots)
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 03:30:50 GMT
: >> Yes, please. My information seems to suggest that "Lasts" didn't come
: >> into vogue until 1600 with the advent of the heel.
: >This surprises me
: Why?
: >> "Turn shoes", I suspect, have a lot more similarity to mocossins
: >What makes you say that turn shoes weren't lasted?
: It is my understanding of shoemaking that "Lasts" are used when one
: is nailing bits of shoe together. As for stretching the leather around the
: last in order to make the shoe. I've never seen it done that way (which
: doesn't mean that it wasn't), and I have yet to see a need for one when
: I make my shoes, other than possibly when hammering the turned seam flat.
: Why do you think that they might be?
Lasts are excelent for sizing purposes. Once you have the the upper sewn
you can stretch it over the last for a perfect fit instead of trial and
error fitting. The upper is cut bigger than lyou need and the excess is
trimed.
A lasted shoe is faster and easier to construct and comes out looking
much better.
David White
blackdog at netcom.com
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pointy Toes (was Costuming and Boots)
Date: 6 Feb 1995 15:52:58 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
<From: cheval at ix.netcom.com (Jay Hoffman)>
>>Ever tried making a long pointed shoe in this fasion? Imposible. Any
>>hints on how to sew the sole on turn shoe fashion without turning the
>>shoe inside out?
>The few finds I have seen and handled show the point of the poulain
>unfinished before turning, then finished afterward by rolling the
>leather to the inside on both sides and stitching completely through.
I never would have interpreted the pictures that way. My poulains are
sewn inside out, point first, and turning the front part of the shoe as
I go along (every few inches). Judging from the spacing of the holes
in the drawings in "Shoes and Pattens" this seemed the most reasonable
way. But then that's just from the pictures.
Ipse mera Eruditissimus, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Northkeep
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blackdog at netcom.com (David E. White)
Subject: Re: Pointy Toes (was Costuming and Boots)
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 03:40:52 GMT
I. Marc Carlson (IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu) wrote:
: <From: cheval at ix.netcom.com (Jay Hoffman)>
: >>Ever tried making a long pointed shoe in this fasion? Imposible. Any
: >>hints on how to sew the sole on turn shoe fashion without turning the
: >>shoe inside out?
: >The few finds I have seen and handled show the point of the poulain
: >unfinished before turning, then finished afterward by rolling the
: >leather to the inside on both sides and stitching completely through.
: I never would have interpreted the pictures that way. My poulains are
: sewn inside out, point first, and turning the front part of the shoe as
: I go along (every few inches). Judging from the spacing of the holes
: in the drawings in "Shoes and Pattens" this seemed the most reasonable
: way. But then that's just from the pictures.
I have never had the pleasure of seeing a original outside of photographs
but from what I can see the stiching is an edge-flesh seam all the way
around and the thickness of the leather is such that the shoe would not
be able to be turned rightside out without ruining the shoe. The only
solution I can think of is to use very thin soles wich contradicts
the available evidence or to sew the shoe rightside out. Much more dificult.
I gather from this thread that some of you have succesfully overcome this
problem. How was it done?
David White
blackdog at netcom.com
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Paintings of Boots (was Costuming and Boots)
Date: 6 Feb 1995 16:08:24 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Justin Silvanus<From: steve.mercer at network.com (Steve E. Mercer)>
>One potential source of secondary (at best) evidence for boot
>patterns and styles is from period paintings...
This is entirely correct. And, as you suggested, as long as it is
remembered that the paintings might be inaccurate, and that boots
based on them are, at best, guesses, I see no problem with using
paintings as a source.
Ipse mera Eruditissimus, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Northkeep
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: David Moore <david at spider.lloyd.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Costuming and Boots
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:27:10 -0800
On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, David E. White wrote:
> : Aside from poking out the toe and heels, a solid wood last has limited use
> : in turn shoe construction. (sizing maybe?)
>
> Yes.
The last does provide help in sizing, I use a sock stuffed with paper if
I don't have a last in the size that I need.
> : Where did the strong cement to fasten the sole come from, hide
> : glue?
>
> They used no glue of course. All fastening was mechanical.
The period (11th -14th c) shoe construction that I ahve seen does not
appear to use glue at all for sole attachment. However, hide glue was
used, and probably was used for holding things together before
stitching. Some illustrations that I have seen (See Medieval Shoes and
Pattens, Museum of London) show what looks like a glue pot at the shoe
makers bench.
Dafydd ap Gwalchmai
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Costuming and Boots
Date: 7 Feb 1995 21:31:46 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
David Moore <david at spider.lloyd.com> writes:
|> The period (11th -14th c) shoe construction that I ahve seen does not
|> appear to use glue at all for sole attachment. However, hide glue was
|> used, and probably was used for holding things together before
|> stitching. Some illustrations that I have seen (See Medieval Shoes and
|> Pattens, Museum of London) show what looks like a glue pot at the shoe
|> makers bench.
|>
|> Dafydd ap Gwalchmai
But hide glue softens when you wet it (which is why instrument builders like
to use it - it is reversible). Not very good for outdoor shoes in wet climes.
Perhaps the 'glue' pot was some sort of wax or pitch used in sealing seams.
Or some sort of dye. Or perhaps glue might have been used to tack things
together temporarily while they were sewn. Or just for indoor shoes.
Cheers, Balderik
From: cheval at ix.netcom.com (Jay Hoffman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Costuming and Boots
Date: 7 Feb 1995 23:09:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Good my lord,
>That doesn't explain why one shouldn't use a drill press, it merely explains
>that an awl is the traditional tool and not too difficult to use.
The primary reason I know of for using an awl vs. a drill is that a drill, by
its very nature, removes material from your piece; whereas an awl only seperates
the fibers. Leather, by its nature, will swell somewhat over use and time.
This natural action helps to seal the seam on an awled stitch, improving both
the water resistance (a consideration in footwear) and rot resistance (also why
waxed thread is used).
The above information comes from seperate discussions with both the harness
maker and the cordwainer at Colonial Williamsburg.
For those who have requested documentation on lasts, I apologize for my
tardiness in responding. You have asked for something that is simply so basic
that I had not thought to justify the statements. Aside from displays in both
York and the V&A, as well as several woodcuts (see Shoes and Pattens, as quoted
by Syr Daffyd), every historical cordwainer I know (Williamsburg, Sturbridge,
and West Yorkshire) uses them for period shoe construction (and are much better
at quoting their sources). Aside from this, studies of actual pieces illustrate
that the shapes being produced are not possible through moccassin-style assembly
-- the fibers have clearly been stretched at least after assembly and, according
to the above sources, prior to stitching while inside-out.
For the good gentle who asked questions regarding modern shoe manufacturing
technique -- tacks were not used to hold the leather in early-period lasting,
nor was the welt constructed in the same method or for the same purpose
(attaching the sole) as modern (17th c. and later) welts. I had similar
difficulties understanding the differences when I first started doing historical
shoe reconstruction, since my prior training was in modern shoe repair. There
are indications that tacks were used by the 15th c., mostly in the types of
tools (hammers, pliers) illustrated in the woodcuts (some suggest that they
would have been re-used). I have no more proof than the woodcuts that glue
might have been used, but all of the reconstructionists I know do not use it in
any of the assembly steps of turn-shoes, either vamps or soles.
I apologize for not quoting dates or sources and would understand your
skepticism at this point. I can only recommend you to the various museums
throughout England and the continent, as well as the extant Companies of
Cordwainers here and abroad. I think you will find that lasts are an integral
part of the shoemaking industry in period and that much of the footwear of the
middle ages was constructed in this manner.
Yours in service,
Alfred of Carlyle, West Kingdom
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Pointy Shoes
Date: 10 Feb 1995 13:31:34 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
(being resent as my messages for the past few days have fallen into
the Void)
Regarding the manufacture of "pointy toes" toe first, yes I've made them
that way and if you go slowly and skive the inner leather a bit it works
just fine, especially for "legal" shoes (for English Personae).
For the tacky long thin pointed one, I stand corrected. "Shoes and
Pattens", page 49 clearly suggests that the longer toes were stitched
together with an Flesh/Edge Butt Seam, regardless of what my pictures
appear to tell me.
Ipse mera Eruditissimus, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Northkeep
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Pointy Toes
Date: 8 Feb 1995 12:47:13 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
<From: blackdog at netcom.com (David E. White)>
>I have never had the pleasure of seeing a original outside of photographs
>but from what I can see the stiching is an edge-flesh seam all the way
>around and the thickness of the leather is such that the shoe would not
>be able to be turned rightside out without ruining the shoe. The only
>solution I can think of is to use very thin soles wich contradicts
>the available evidence or to sew the shoe rightside out. Much more dificult.
>I gather from this thread that some of you have succesfully overcome this
>problem. How was it done?
I started, when necessary only, by skiving down the edges leading into the
point (which is necessary to get the VERY thing points anyway), sewing the
point (while keeping the leather wet) and turning the sewn bits every few
inches. When the upper was about halfway done like this, I finished it and
pulled the point on through the rest of the way.
Ipse mera Eruditissimus, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Northkeep
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: David Moore <david at spider.lloyd.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Costuming and Boots
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 13:32:57 -0800
Lord Diarmuit,
I have just read your comments to Alfred of Carlysle's response to you on
the use of lasts in period. One of the things that Alfred didn't mention
was that one of the shoemakers at Williamsburg that he spoke with was one
of the researchers who helped put together the Museum of London's "Shoes
& Pattens."
His knowledge of turn shoes not only comes from speaking with this good
gentle but also from looking at actual pieces in museums in England.
Not to mention the 13 years of rivalry that he and I have had in trying
to make period shoes and boots. He still won't give me peace until I
master using a boar's bristle and waxed/rosined flax to do all of my
stitching. He also gives me grief over the use of non-natural tanned
leather.
Period turn shoes can be made without lasts. I have done it. My 2 year
old son has had several pairs of his first shoes all made without lasts.
But when it comes to working with shoes where I don't have a tried and
true pattern and last is the only way for me to go.
As to the use of lasts in period, read your "Shoes and Pattens", talk
with historians who have been studying this for years and you will find
that lasts have been in use for a very long time. Longer than the 14th
century.
Good luck with your projects and research
Dafydd ap Gwalchmai
From: gregsta at cybernetics.net (Gregory G. Stapleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: re: Costuming and Boots
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 03:22:50 +1000
Organization: Cybernetx, Inc.
In _Shoes and Pattens_, there are at least 2 or 3 period woodcut pictures
showing shoe makers with lasts and with draw knives for making lasts.
Lord Gawain Kilgore
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mwl at celsiustech.se (Matt Larsen)
Subject: Re: Costuming and Boots
Organization: CelsiusTech AB
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 08:52:52 GMT
DavidK1302 (davidk1302 at aol.com) wrote:
: I am truly fascinated by the useful remarks and helpful suggestions on the
: shoemaking topic, one questions though...can someone describe the exact
: process of the Tunnel Stitching shown in the museum's "bible". I have
: tried a few test attempts at it but my stitches just tear out of the
: leather and getting them deeper without emerging from the opposite side
: seems too difficult at the moment. Thanks in advance for any help.
I've clumped a few shoes and boots (which is what tunnel stitching is
mostly used for), so I guess I can offer a little advice. The first
piece is that you almost have to have a curved awl to punch your holes,
and some kind of flexible needle (I currently use boar bristles with
linen thread whipped on, but there are synthetic boar bristles that
will work too. Ask at shoe supply wholesalers). You also need to be
using relatively thick leather. I think the thinest that I've ever
stitched is about 8 oz leather. I expect one could practice enough to
punch the holes without punching through the other side, but I would
expect the stitches to tear out. Also, I would only expect this to
work with oak tanned leather; chrome tanned is just too weak.
The exact process is hard to describe, but I'll give it a try. I
punch holes as I stitch, first on the sole, then on the clump. The
holes are about 1/4" to 1/2" long from entry to exit. After I've
pulled the thread through the latest hole (but not tight. More on
that later), I punch the next in the opposite piece of leather just a
little bit further on from the exit hole of the last stitch, so it
ends up something like this:
.... .... ..... ....
. . . . . . etc.
.... .... .....
Of course, you need some clearance to get at the inside of the leather
to do the next stitch, so you can't pull the stitches tight right
away. I pull them tight every couple stitches to about four stitches
behind where I'm working. This gets to be a bit of a pain at the end,
but it is manageable. One more thing. In Shoes and Pattens, it shows
the heel clumped separately from the front part of the sole. The first
time I clumped a shoe, I said to myself "that looks like more trouble
than it's worth". Silly me. There are reasons for it. First of all,
the heel and the ball of the foot wear the leather at different rates.
It's nice to be able to reclump just one part of the sole. Also, I find
that having the separate pieces makes it a litte easier when you've
worked your way all around the sole and you're back to the part that
you've already pulled tight to the sole. I put that spot at one corner
of the gap between the two pieces. Since the corner is there it gives
a little extra clearance to get to the inside, and it's just a little
easier to finish off. Also, I think (though I'm not sure) that there's
a little less stress there.
: Lord Cornelius the Sage
: Barony of the Cleftlands
: Middle Kingdom
Good luck, I hope this helps!
Geoffrey Mathias
mjl at rational.com
From: J.N.Deakin at shu.ac.UK (Jim N. Deakin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Another shoe book!
Date: 9 Mar 1995 16:58:08 -0500
Organization: Sheffield Hallam University
Just as the round of talk about lasts and Shoes & Pattens fades away..
Another design reference!
there's a (fairly cheaply produced) book:
Medieval Footwear From Coventry
(a catalogue of the collection of Coventry museums)
by Susan Thomas
Published by Coventry Museums 1980
(c) Coventry City Council
ISBN 0 901606 15 4
First the good bit!
It says that the shoes and parts within the catalogue are those which can be
roughly dated to pre-1600. There's 9 pages on techniques, 148 pages of verbal
descriptions and measurements, an index (by style!), a bibliography, and 22
pages of line drawings of shoes/pattens, and parts of the same, selected from
those described.
Now the better bit! I think its full price was approx 6 pounds 50 pence
(half the price of the Londom Museum work), but there are copies around in
remainder shops at 99p !!!
I know it's not always easy to find remaindered books, but if you know about
it at least there's a chance!
Good Luck (but you can't have my copy! :-) )
Niall of Stone Ford
.........................................................................
Email on:
JANET : J.N.DEAKIN at uk.ac.shu
INTERNET or UUCP : J.N.DEAKIN at shu.ac.uk
.........................................................................
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mwl at celsiustech.se (Matt Larsen)
Subject: Re: More on 'Shoes and Pattens'...
Organization: CelsiusTech AB
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:11:51 GMT
Pip Sullivan (dervish at ogre.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Incidentally, does anyone have any other good references for footwear
: pre-12th century?
The best book I've seen (and I happen to have it in the office since I
was consulting it becuse of the recent thread on lasts :-) is Margrethe
Hald's "Primitive Shoes", published by the National Museum of Denmark,
Copenhagen, 1972. The ISBN number is 87 480 7282 6. She discuses mostly
shoes from about 900 to 1200, with some stuff on either end of that.
The work is mostly focused on finds from Denmark, but she compares them
to similar finds from other areas where there was Scandinavian influence,
including the British isles. It includes many diagrams of patterns for
shoes, though not as detailed as the ones from "Shoes and Pattens". A
book every shoemaker should at least look at some!
Geoffrey Mathias
mjl at rational.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: keegan at netcom.com (Tim Bray/C. Keegan)
Subject: Re: question on rands (shoes)
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 06:11:22 GMT
Pip Sullivan (dervish at ogre.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: I'm a little confused... I have the 'Shoes and Pattens' book, and I
: understand where the rand is supposed to go, but I can't figure out how to
: make it fit around the toe and heel without cutting it.. :(
: Also, it is described as being 'triangular in section' - does this mean
: that when sliced, it is triangular in shape, and if so, where does the
: thicker side go, on the outer sole, or between the upper and the inner
: sole?
The rand (or welt) is triangular in cross-section. The wider part should
be on the outside when the shoe is finished (turned rightside out). The
reason for this should be obvious when you look closely at the seam
between the upper and the sole on a turnshoe without a rand; the seam
tries to open up and a triangular piece will cover the stitching and
protect it from wear, which is the purpose of the rand in the first
place. It also helps to exclude water and dirt.
I don't understand your first question, how to fit the rand around the
toe & heel. Maybe you are thinking of the rand as a wide strip - it's
not, it is a very narrow piece, and a real PITA to assemble into a seam
that is none too easy to stitch in the first place. Being narrow it is
flexible and you shouldn't have any difficulty curving it around the toe
& heel. Getting the stitches through it and getting it even, now, that's
more of a challenge! Try cutting it out of thick material, so that it
formas a wedge in cross-section, maybe 1/4 to 3/8 inch wide and perhaps
3/16 inch thick on the thick side, tapering to about the same thickness
as whatever you're using for the upper. Stitch it in with extra material
on either side of the stitch line, and then trim off the inside (narrow)
excess when you trim the seam before turning the shoe; then trim the
outside excess after turning the shoe.
Your last question also puzzles me somewhat - the rand is placed between
the upper and the outer sole, and the thicker part faces outward when the
shoe is completed and turned rightside out.
Hope this helps (or did I make the confusion worse?)
Colin
keegan at netcom.com
From: David Moore <david at spider.lloyd.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: question on rands (shoes)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 06:30:45 -0800
Organization: Lloyd Internetworking
On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Matt Larsen wrote:
> Pip Sullivan (dervish at ogre.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : I'm a little confused... I have the 'Shoes and Pattens' book, and I
> : understand where the rand is supposed to go, but I can't figure out how to
> : make it fit around the toe and heel without cutting it.. :(
>
From Geoffrey
> I haven't done much with rands (shame on me, I know it :-), but I think
> I know the answers to some of this. So here goes. First of all, I don't
> think the piece that becomes the rand is actually triangular in cross
> section. I know that Shoes and Pattens states this, but I think they are
> looking at rands out of original shoes, which have become trinagular over
> time. Basicly, as the shoe wears, the leather at the inside edge of the
> rand gets compressed and becomes triangular.
> As for fitting it around the toe and heel, I'm not sure I understand the
> difficulty. I just use a long strip of leather (usually the same stuff
> I cut the uppers from) and stitch it in as I go.
I too haven't done a whole lot of rands but I have done them the way
Geoffrey states as well as using the pattern of the sole to cut out a
rand from the same material as the upper in a shape that looks like a
silloette (sp?) of the sole. This seems to be a waste of material and I
believe that the method Geoffrey mentions is probably the more period.
If you get kinks in the rand as you work around the toe or heel they seem
to "wear out" over time or with water.
I have done the tunnel stitch to attach the rand to a sole and it is a bear!
Good luck!
Dafydd ap Gwalchmai
From: schuldy at abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period footwear...
Date: 31 Mar 1995 16:10:00 GMT
Organization: My own little corner.
Hellspawn <melete at cml.com> wrote:
>Can anyone give me some ideas as to where one could find, or make period
>footwear?
>
>When I went to my first SCA event, I was garbed in a (comical) T-tunic, hose
>and Tai-Chi slippers. I was told by someone in my group that these
>"slippers" were perfectly acceptable as footwear. They are, but I found them
>to be VERY uncomfortable.
Not a period solution, but a reasonable fake. I often buy several sets of
black slip-on sneakers in the summer. They resemble Chinese Slippers, but
have arch supports and real soles. Discount stores (like Woolworths,
Bradlees, Caldor and such) often have them for as little as $4 a pair in
mid-summer.
The thought of running around Pennsic, stepping on small rocks, and having
no padding or arch support, makes me cringe. These shoes do help there.
Again, this is not a period solution, but one that simply fails to draw
attention to your feet.
If only I could find boots that fit my feet... I have three pairs of
cripplers, but no good boots.
Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jennyb at warthog (Jennifer Bray)
Subject: Re: Period footwear...
Organization: 3Com (Europe) Ltd
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 18:15:20 GMT
>Can anyone give me some ideas as to where one could find, or make period
>footwear?
Depends on the period, I can supply you with patterns & instructions for
making a fairly simple pair of shoes suitable for 10th-11th century
Northern Europe. They're basic slip on turnshoes, one could modify the
pattern to suit later times.
If you're interested email me on:- jennyb at pdd.3com.com
> and I thought I could use this pattern, leave off the sole and
>then perhaps bond the boot upper to a cheap pair of canvas running shoes.
>Thereby giving myself a proper arch support and sole and camouflaging the
>runner underneath.
I've no experience of butchering running shoes, but I have known people
make slightly outsize shoes then cram modern footwear inside. Another
possibility is to add a modern insole for extra comfort, but neither
of these gives you the grip offered by modern soles. (wet leather soles
+ wet footpath = wet backside!)
Jennifer/Rannveik
Vanaheim Vikings
From: pwp+ at cs.cmu.edu (Paul W Placeway)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period footwear...
Date: 2 Apr 95 21:24:50 GMT
Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, School of Computer Science
Karen Larsdatter med det Usigelige Efternavn fra Skyggedal,
kgreen at pomona.edu writes:
<I had a lot of problems finding period -- and comfortable -- footwear.
<Originally, I wore a pair of plain black flats, but I`ve changed over to
<wearing Keds "chukka" ankle boots -- great arch supports, doesn`t
<look *great,* but looks a LOT better than flats.
But, but, but... flats *are* period. Specifically, an Anglo-Danish
low shoe for 850--1000 (from a dig from Hungate St., York), a slip-on
(back seamed) flat. And again English for 1350--1400 (from an
excavation in London), this time more open, with a two-piece upper
(vamp and heel), and with a buckle.
Info on the former is from Richardson, "Excavations in Hungate York",
The Archaeological Journal of 1959--60, vol. 116--117, and was brought
to my attention by Catherine of Haga of the Midrealm in an '86
workshop. The latter is from Grew and Neergaard, _Shoes_and_Pattens_,
1988: H.M. Stationary Office (The Museum of London), ISBN
0-11-290443-2.
Of course the finish on these flats probably wasn't the polish of a
modern flat. But the style is entirely appropriate (for the
corresponding personae).
--Tofi
From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period footwear...
Date: 3 Apr 1995 02:12:25 GMT
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team (We're Trained Professionals)
In article <0098E2ED.E2D652A3 at pomona.edu>,
YOU STUCK UP, HALF WITTED, SCRUFFY LOOKING NERF HERDER <kgreen at pomona.edu> wrote:
>...but looks a LOT better then flats.
Now, this is a comment that surprises me. I've never understood why some
people consider "tai-chi" shoes (china flats, whatever) horrible, bad-
looking, fill-in-your-own-denigration.
1. "They feel bad." Two words: Doctor Sholl's. Besides which, "arch
support" as we know it isn't particularly period, is it? ;)
2. "They look bad." In what way? Look at any number of period illuminations
(particularly those of Henry VII onward in England) and you'll see a shoe
that looks astonishingly similar. Yes, the china flat would be out-of-
place for a Highland Scot, but the definition of "SCA" isn't limited to
"Scandinavians and Celts Anonymous." Or perhaps the 'look bad' part can
be translated to 'look modern.' as in they are recognizable as china flats.
But can this not also be said of many knives, some belts, spoons, et
cetera, which look the same now as they did in period? Would you similarly
decry them?
------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101
From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period footwear...
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 1995 03:48:00 -0800
He> From: melete at cml.com (Hellspawn)
He> My biggest fear with oversized boots with modern innards is that the
He> harder sole of the inner will quickly wear through the softer leather
He> of the sole of the boot. Perhaps with the addition of a crepe (sp?)
He> sole, the kind that Tandy leather sells would help provide both a
He> non-skid surface and a more durable sole?
He>
He> -- Barin
I don't know if this will help, in your case, but one SCA bootmaker uses a
thick mixture of barge cement and ground-up car tires (about like "normal"
coffee grounds). This is "painted" on the bottom of the moccasin-like boot
until thick enough to make a non-skid sole over the leather one.
From: amlsmith at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew ML Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period footware
Date: 6 May 1995 04:45:09 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
JWNeff <jwneff at aol.com> wrote:
>Anyone have any advise on footware? What research I've done on shoes from
>the middle ages leads me to believe that they were just plain miserable.
Greetings from Sebastian.
I would argue that their shoes were decidely more comfortable than some
of the shoes which we subject ourselves today, actually. To begin with,
what period are you looking at, and how much shoe-making / leather
working are you prepared to do?
As for no left or right foot, it matters very little when your shoes are
not rigid. the shoe conforms to the foot, rather than us trying to
conform our feet to the shoe. High Heels.. Foot Binding.. I can't see a
difference, can you see a difference...? ;-)
To start with, ways to fake it, at K-Mart:
Moccasins - Cheap and easy to find. I realise that the cut is all
wrong, but they look far better than a pair of Nikies, and they give you
a real appreciation for the Pennsic Roads (*ouch*) sudenly you realise
that they must have had harder soles, back then, on their own feet!
Desert Boots - These go in and out of fashion fairly regularly, and fit
a basic pattern fairly well. Soft leather uppers, unidentifiable, ubt
somwhat thicker sole, no discernable heel. A good shoe. The women's
version has a pointier toe, more like poulaines which also went in and
out of fashion throughout peroid.
A sample of a very similar shoe was unearthed almost completly intact in
(I believe) Norway. Dated to about 1400.
A Dance Instructor / Musician swears by Chinese slippers, if for no
other reason than they contain _no_leather_. They are also comforable,
wear well, are inexpensive and no one questions them.
When you want to make them, drop down to the library and ask for
ISBN 0-11-290443-2 That is the London Digs book #2: Shoes and Pattens. It
deals with Shoes and pattens, cobbling, finishing, habits, etcetera from
about 1100 to about 1400. After that, I think you could safely take a
leap of faith, and try to figure them out from the excellently realistic
art that appeared thereafter, and the existing relics.
BTW, did I mention that S&P has reconstructed patterns?
Sebastian ... who has yet to get a last.
From: amlsmith at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew ML Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period footware
Date: 19 May 1995 04:08:30 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Sue Hallock <hallock at banyan.com> wrote:
>I would certainly agree! My only complaint with period-style shoes is that
>they weren't into building in any arch support. Medieval folk either had very
I have not found any reference to any such additional arch support, and
as long as we are citing S&P, look at the adjustments to the shoes. Some
were to accomidate feet that adjusted with time. Slitting the shoes,
and all...
Me, I use a full or 3/4 insole regardless.. Keeps my back and knees out
of trouble, and gives me a better stride! ;-)
>>As for no left or right foot, it matters very little when your shoes are
>>not rigid. the shoe conforms to the foot, rather than us trying to
>>conform our feet to the shoe. High Heels.. Foot Binding.. I can't see a
>>difference, can you see a difference...? ;-)
>
>Well, medieval shoes did have a left and right (see Shoes and Pattens or other
>posts here on the Rialto) I have to agree about the tortorous effect of modern
>shoes (with the exception of sneakers!). When people ask why I always wear
Some did, some did not. The more "fashionable" ones required a more
accurate fitting, and a poulaine tended to follow with the big toe,
thus requiring LorR feet. Normal, work-a-day shoes did not require it,
and I am sure that it refers to same-foot lasts somewhere in the book.
Sebastian
Andrew Smith Pan Sebastian Goral
Mechanical Engineer Shire of Ar n-Eilean-ne
Memorial University of Newfoundland East Kingdom
amlsmith at plato.ucs.mun.ca
From: amlsmith at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew ML Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period footware
Date: 15 May 1995 04:05:25 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Greetings again, from Sebastian....
In article <3odrot$sb2 at remus.reed.edu>, Iain Odlin <odlin at reed.edu> wrote:
>> -=> Quoting S. David Lee to All <=-
>> SDL> Period shoes did, for the most part, fail to take into
>> SDL> account the shape of the human foot. You might want to consider
>> SDL> faking it.
>
> This statement is, unless you can provide some decent documentation,
> almost certainly false (unless you mean "period" as starting with the
> beginnings of humanity up 'til 1600, in which case your statement is
> undoubtedly correct for umpteen thousands of years. "Period", to me,
> means "Medieval and Renaissance Europe").
>
> Have a look through "Shoes and Pattens" (the Museum of London book) and
> especially observe the soles of the shoes, *all* of which appear to have
> been cut into right or left.
Yes, and no.. some were and some were not, but as you ahve seen the
book, you already know this...
Just so that I could not say that I was giving advice, without trying it
myself, I made a set of short-toes poulaine-type shoes this weekend.
They look lovely, even if I did size them incorrectly. Light-weight
leatehr uppers, 6OZ sole (yes, I know it is light) but they are
comforatable, wearable, and look great.
No last used, simple stiches, as explained in the book. Machine or by
hand, they both can be done. Not too much work involved either...
Watched Simpsons at the same time.
All you really need is a photocopier or some way to size up the sketches
of the uneartherd shoes...
Sebastian
Andrew Smith Pan Sebastian Goral
Mechanical Engineer Shire of Ar n-Eilean-ne
Memorial University of Newfoundland East Kingdom
amlsmith at plato.ucs.mun.ca
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Foot Wear
Date: 17 Jul 1995 13:17:51 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
<s_wegene at lyra.rz.uni-ulm.de (Frank Wegener)>
>And I have seen folks in used officer boots - my opinion: avoid them:
>They DO NOT look period...
I tend to agree. Although as a self professed "authenticity fanatic"
I tend to draw the line at what people wear on the list field (since,
after all, there are enough anachronisms out there as it is, what's
a couple more), It would be nice if people were willing to give the
job of dressing the effort that it's worth.
OTOH, something you might consider with your "mundane boots" that might
help the "earlier" period people. Take the liner stiffening out. If at
all possible, loose the heels. I've seen people go to extreme efforts
to place long leg pieces on boots to make them "look better", but give no
thought as to how the rest of it looks.
Certainly, there are people who for reasons of their health or their
personal comfort refuse to give up their "modern footwear", but they
really shouldn't get bent out of shape about that decision since that's
the decision that they've made. And if it's true that it's obvious to
all and sundry that their shoes are inaccurate, then so be it.
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Bootmaking...
Date: 27 Jul 1995 21:54:02 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Since the only way to recover from a bad trauma is to just deal with
it and get back to work...
<daryl olson <dolson5 at ub.d.umn.edu>>
Subject: Bootmaking info?
>Well, I'm looking for books, pamphlets, something on bootmaking.
>Not mocassins, which I can find at Tandy Leather, but something
>that would have a harder sole, and possibly some arch support.
>Admittedly, there are some good gentles who have the knowledge and
>sell such objects at the vaious events and fests and faires I've
>seen, but I want to make my own if I can. If anyone has any
>knowledge of a source for bootmaking stuff, please e-mail me.
>Tandy didn't have anything except moccasin type things.
>Diarmid
Your best bet, in my opinion, would be to look at the book _Shoes
and Pattens_ for some thoughts.
The easiest way to place a more firm sole however, in my limited
experience, is to sew the top part of the shoe (the "upper") to the
inner sole (what a moccosin would give you), inside out; as well as
sewing a strip of leather called a welt between the two layers, in
such that when you turn the shoe rightside out you will have the
welt sticking out all around the seam. A crude picture of this is:
**************** ****************
* * * *
* * * *
**** **** **** ****
* * * *
*************** **************
Before After
You then take this "after" show, and glue several layers of thick
leather to the bottom, one on top of the other (or a single layer
of what is sometimes refered to as "Sole" leather). The more
layers, the thicker the sole. Then *stitch* the welt to the sole,
and trim off the excess sole leather.
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Period Footwear!
Organization: The Boeing Company
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:41:57 GMT
sivori at communique.net at coolslim (coolslim) writes:
>There is no reason to be uncomfortable in period shoes. Arround here we take
>the shoe to a shoe repair shop and have modern soles sown on. You can add the
>insert of your choice.
I wore the period shoes I made for myself through most of Pennsic, and
they were quite comfortable. On the last two days, when I was packing,
I switched back to Reeboks and promptly got blisters. The shoes I made
were using a pattern in "Shoes and Pattens", published by Her Majesty's
Stationary Offfice (the British Government Printing Office), which is
based on archeological finds in London.
I traced my foot onto a piece of cardboard to get the sole pattern
(which I suspect is the main reason they were comfortable - they were
specifically made for my feet). The sole was relatively thick leather,
and the 1 piece upper was slighly thinner. It is sewn inside-out,
leaving the heel and top of foot unsewn, then reversed and completed.
This way the stiching ends up on the inside so it gets less wear.
The sole was soaked in paraffin to harden it and waterproof it
(AFTER reversing the shoe). I did cheat and put in an athletic insole
to provide some support.
Daniel of Raven's Nest
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Period Footwear!
Organization: The Boeing Company
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 22:13:02 GMT
mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) writes:
> Some medieval people had bad feet. Medieval people wore shoes. Is it
> reasonable to believe that they had _no_ solution to the problem of
> making comfortable shoes for people with bad feet?
>It may be true that they did not; but that strikes me, in my ignorance, as
>unlikely. It sounds like the same sort of claim as the one about using
>spices to cover the taste of spoiled meat. Just because we have a modern
>solution to a problem does not mean that our ancestors didn't have a
>_different_ solution to the problem.
In the book 'Shoes and Pattens', describing footwear found in London
when excavating for modern buildings, a fair percentage of feet were
deformed as determined by wear patterns in the shoes. Whether the
deformities came first, or whether bad shoes caused them is not
known to me.
One thing to note, though, is that the 'shoe' would be the equivalent
of a house slipper. The 'patten', made of multiple layers of leather
or pieces of wood fastened with leather, was worn over the shoe when
going outdoors. I have yet to notice an SCA person wearing such a
combination (perhaps someone else has), and they would offer more
opportunity for foo support than a single layer of leather does.
Daniel of Raven's Nest
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Andrew Lowry <alowry at wchat.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Period Footwear & Pattens!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: WorldChat / The Online Source, Burlington Ontario.
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 03:31:50 GMT
>In the book 'Shoes and Pattens', describing footwear found in London
>when excavating for modern buildings, a fair percentage of feet were
>deformed as determined by wear patterns in the shoes. Whether the
>deformities came first, or whether bad shoes caused them is not
>known to me.
>
I would tend to think that the bad feet first rather than the other way
around. Viewing the shoes in that book and having worn reproductions
they are very light weight shoes by modern standards. I have known of
people who when poor as a child worn modern shoes after they had out
grown them causing deformation but these were hard leather shoes and
boots not the almost slipper like medieval shoe. Also I would suspect
many people would have gone barefoot even late in our time period due to
poverty and the fact they didn't have so much gravel and pavement -
really hard in medieval shoes or barefoot.
In Tom Sawyer (mid 1800s) the hero wears shoes only on Sunday to go to
church. I would suspect that Tom's material wealth would have been
greater in a industrial society than the average peasant in an agrian
one.
Of course problems with one's feet that modern shoes can help (lack of
support) would no doubt be worse than for a modern person.
>One thing to note, though, is that the 'shoe' would be the equivalent
>of a house slipper. The 'patten', made of multiple layers of leather
>or pieces of wood fastened with leather, was worn over the shoe when
>going outdoors. I have yet to notice an SCA person wearing such a
>combination (perhaps someone else has), and they would offer more
>opportunity for foo support than a single layer of leather does.
The Patten, IMHO,is meant for poor weather (all the time in England :)),
dirty conditions (streets of London?) or if you have just leather soles
in your hose. If Pennsic is dry you don't need them. i used my pair once
this war (morning dew) and they promptly broke due to an error in their
construction. I now know better. I know two gentles who wear pattens and
not always in poor weather. I have seen them both wearing them at
Pennsic including the most recent one.
Richard Larmer
Ealdormere
>Daniel of Raven's Nest
><DE59pq.Iow at bcstec.ca.boeing.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Glasses & Boots
Organization: The Boeing Company
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:57:48 GMT
david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) writes:
>The HMSO book "Shoes and Pattens (discovered in excavations of the City
>of London)" is a good first reference. `Purist Mike T. volunteered to
>give advice to anyone wanting to make completely documentable shoes and
>boots. He can be reached by phone or snailmail - we haven't gotten him
>into the electronic age first.
I made myself a pair of 'turnshoes' based on a pattern in the above
referenced book and wore them all through Pennsic this year. They
were quite comfortable. The basic construction goes like this:
First, get your foot pattern exactly right. This is done by sticking
your foot, and any hose, etc. that you will be wearing with the shoes
in a plastic shopping bag. Next wrap the plastic bag tightly with
duct tape or masking tape, squishing it so it conforms to your foot.
Since your left and right feet may be slightly different sizes, do
this for each foot. Now carefully cut off the bag and tape in the
shape of the pattern pieces. In the case of the pattern I made, there
are two pieces: the sole and the upper. The upper is slit at the
heel, and just enough along the top of the foot to get the foot out.
The overall shape is about the same coverage as a modern sneaker,
but has a pointier toe.
In this case, you would cut around the leg in the shape of the top
of the shoe, cut the slit at the top of the foot enough to get
your foot out, then cut down the heel and around the sole to get the
two pieces. The upper when laid flat looks approximately like a
fat arrowhead.
Second, test the pattern on some non-stretchy fabric, like corduroy.
Add the usual seam allowances to the cut patterns. Assemble the
test pieces and try them on. If they fit, you get a pair of slippers
as a bonus. If they dont fit, figure out where they bind or are
loose and adjust the taped pattern. Once you have the master pattern
just right, you can use it to make any number of shoes and slippers.
For slippers, you can sew together several layers of fabric for the
sole, or a layer of thin leather (i.e. thin enough to run through
you sewing machine). You may sew in a lining just like any other
lined garment.
For shoes: find a relatively thick leather for the sole (or two
layers of thinner leather), and a thinner leather for the upper.
You will need a sewing awl, which is a thick needle on a handle,
for punching holes in the leather. For the turnshoe pattern, the
toe is pointed somewhat, so add the same distance to the toe of
your master pattern on the sole and upper. Check the length around
the sole and the outer edge of the upper with a cloth measuring
tape. They must be exactly the same, since leather does not
stretch. If one is off, make the adjustment by adding or subtacting
from the point of the upper.
The 'turnshoe' was sewn inside-out, so when complete the stitches
were on the inside, and thus not subject to as much wear. The holes
in the sole go from the middle of the side thickness diagonally up
and out the inside face. The holes in the upper go straight through
the thickness. Use the measuring tape to make sure you have the
same number of holes per inch on both pieces (I used 4/inch).
I used heavy nylon thread as a substitute for the flax thread in
the originals. You might also consider sinew. Thread two
large needles on the thread and tie it into a loop. Pass one
needle through the sole and the other through the upper at the
matching hole, then pass each needle through the same holes on the
other piece. Pull tight. Now pass each needle through the
next hole, making an x with the threads, and again swap the
needles through the opposing holes.
This sewing pattern looks like ||||| on one side and xxxxx on the
other, with a total of 4 threads at each stitch. Sew the shoe
wrong side out with the xxxx stitches on the wrong side. Do the
sole-upper seam, but leave the heel undone. Invert the shoe,
wetting it if needed to make it more flexible, and using a stick
to push out the toe. Now sew up the heel. Put some holes in
the sides of the slit at the top of the foot and put in a leather
thong to tie the shoe with.
The sole may be soaked in melted wax to harde and waterproof it.
I made my shoes a little large and inserted athletic insoles to
provide foot support. Since they were custom fitted to my feet,
I found them very comfortable, and after a week of walking around
Pennsic, they look authentically worn in.
Daniel of Raven's Nest
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Medieval Footware
Date: 31 Oct 1995 11:07:30 -0500
Organization: The Internet
<Antoine D'Aubernoun<"Randal A. Shipp" <ras0002 at jove.acs.unt.edu>>>
>If it is possible, please post the results of your search here on the
>Rialto. I, too, am studying period footwear (c. 1280, if possible), and
>would love to find another good source. So far, my best find has been
>Her Majesty's Stationery Office's "Shoes and Pattens". I don't have the
>book with me, so author and ISBN escape me. I'm sure that someone else
>here can fill in the blanks.
Museum of London.
Shoes and pattens / Francis Grew and Margrethe de Neergaard ;
illustrations by Susan Mitford.
London : H.M.S.O., 1988.
vi, 145 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.
(Medieval finds from excavations in London ; 2)
At head of title: Museum of London.
Summaries in French and German.
OCLC: 20595550
ISBN: 0112904432
===============================================================
It is a very good book, and has been described as "the Bible for
making Period Shoes", which is unfortunate, since that can imply
that one need never look at another work. It is, at best, a
synthysis of information, based on material from a very small
region, and so is not the "last word" on the topic. Based on
*that* premise, it is an Excellent work, and well worth the effort
to get a hold of a copy, if only to read.
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Shoes
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:14:50 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
People often have questions regarding shoes. I've come across a photo of
some Tudor shoes of several types:
http://www.synergy.net/channels/maryrose/cloth.html
These were found in the wreck of the Mary Rose.
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Female Footwear!
Date: 12 Jun 1996 11:15:37 -0400
<dbaker at romanticism.microserve.com (Danielle)>
>Ok...I have another question! What sorts of footwear can a female in say
>14th-16th century wear? (I am giving myself a broad range because I have
>no idea what my persona shall be as of yet.) I have some suede sandals but
>I was not sure if females would wear the suede boots we see in most
>leather shops. Would they be the ankle boots or knee high? Help!!
In the 14th -16th centuries the shoes worn by women did not, as I uderstand
it, differ drastically from those worn by the men. Ankle boots would
be just fine, though. The problem with the boots you find in leather
shops has to do with construction style and the heel. While the later
period shoes (beginning about 1400 or so) are made in what is considered
a modern fashion (I.e. they are "welted shoes") many *Modern* shoes are no
longer made that way since with the advent of really good adhesives and
plastics, there is no reason to do it the "old fashioned" way.
Secondly, the raised heel, such as you see in most modern shoes is not
found in western Europe before 1600 (since the technology to make them
had not yet been developed).
My best suggestion, after going out and having shoes made for you (or better,
doing it yourself), is to go for the ankle boots, since the thigh ones are
more expensive, and if you're dressed nicely, no one should be seeing what
you are wearing on your thighs. :)
"Fides res non pecunniae, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
sed temporis" University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
-- Unknown Recreator Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: Kim Pollard <kim at inna.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sneakers at Pennsic
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:41:57 -0400
On 23 Jul 1996, Daniel Damouth wrote:
> I am looking forward to my first Pennsic, but I'm also very
> worried about my feet, which have longstanding sports-related
> injuries. They are fine in the right kind of sneakers,
> but there is no other kind of shoe that I can wear for more
> than a few hours without lots of pain.
>
> I'm wondering if it's possible to somehow make a period-
> looking shoe out of a pair of sneakers. Has anyone done
> anything like this? I was thinking along the lines of
> using felt or some fabric to wrap around the shoes, but
> I would not rule out more drastic alterations. I'm willing
> to gut the shoes just to preserve the bottoms.
>
> I have access to a sewing machine and some sewing expertise.
>
> Daniel of Cynnabar
Do your sneakers have any special arch support, or is it the cushion that
relieves your pain? If you answer yes to either of these, you may be able
to use a commercially available insert in a shoe less obvious than
sneakers. After all... if you can sew, you can make a pair of "turnsole"
shoes using 4oz. "chap" leather or suede and the "plain indian" patter for
moccosins and modify the closure to look more like a late 13th to mid 14th
century shoes. Or, if you are really industrious, you can make an early
15th century boot. Illustrations for these can be found in the Museum of
London's "Shoes and Pattens, Medieval Finds from Excavations in London".
The technique will not be "period", but the end result will look very
close.
If you need special arch inserts or really great cushions, try someplace
like the pharmacy department of K-mart. The one in my area carries a wide
variety of inserts/cushions ranging in price anywhere from $2.50 to $18.00
a pair, depending on the name brand. Dr. Scholl's is excellent for arch
support (I wear them in all my "regular" shoes), and the K-mart brand
cushion is extremely comfortable (these are currently in my combat boots).
If you would like more information, I'll do my best to send you
instructions in time for Pennsics. I'm sure the same type of pattern
would work for just sewing on new tops to your sneaker bottoms, but I'm
afraid I have no idea how it would look.
If all else fails, WEAR THE SNEAKERS ANYWAY. They may not be period, but
neither are the medical bills incurred by wearing improper footwear. Poor
souls... they just had to put up with the pain!
Kimberly
From: Robyn Hodgkin <rhodgkin at mailhost.dpie.gov.au>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sneakers at Pennsic
Date: 24 Jul 1996 07:09:03 GMT
Organization: Australian Department of Primary Industries and Energy
Kim Pollard <kim at inna.net> wrote:
> On 23 Jul 1996, Daniel Damouth wrote:
>
> > I am looking forward to my first Pennsic, but I'm also very
> > worried about my feet, which have longstanding sports-related
> > injuries. (snip)
> > I'm wondering if it's possible to somehow make a period-
> > looking shoe out of a pair of sneakers. Has anyone done
> > anything like this? I was thinking along the lines of
> > using felt or some fabric to wrap around the shoes, but
> > I would not rule out more drastic alterations. I'm willing
> > to gut the shoes just to preserve the bottoms.
It is *wonderful* that you are really thinking about what you can do
to work around this problem. Really, I think you could make a leather
boot top which sat on the top of your sneakers and covered them up.
One of my friends made a pair of ordinary shoes look like bucket-top
boots that way!
I cannot draw up a pattern for you on this, but if you email me, I will
see what I can do for you... If you get the same offer from someone
who is more expert than I, take their advice instead, but I am more
than willing to offer what help I can.
Kiriel
rhodgkin at mailhost.dpie.gov.au
From: HAROLD.FELD at hq.doe.GOV (HAROLD.FELD)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: sneakers at Pennsic
Date: 24 Jul 1996 09:17:13 -0400
Greetings from Yaakov, particularly to Daniel of Cynabar!
My first year and a half or so in the SCA, I wore sneakers wrapped
with rag and tied with leather shoe laces (as thick as I could find).
I found it looked realy spiff but got rather hot. A few comments
based on my memory.
1) Traction can be a problem. I found that wrapping the leather
around my foot as well as above the ankle helped. This will not be a
problem at Pennsic, where you will not have to deal with linoleum.
2) It can get hot. If you know you're going to be somewhere for a
while and can stand it, you may want to take off your shoes for a bit.
3) Make sure the wrappings are tight enough that you are not trailing.
4) Don't wrap too tight.
5) I found the best result was to place the toe just a few inches back
from the edge, with significantly more cloth in the back and side.
Fold the front over the toes. Fold the sides over your foot. Wrap the
stuff behind your foot around your ankle. It worked well coming up to
the bottom of my shin.
3) The wrapping will get wet and muddy. This will happen every day
after dew fall. Make sure you spread them out to dry when you take
them off. You may wish to have a few wrap clothes.
Hope this helps
Yaakov
From: gray at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sneakers at Pennsic
Date: 24 Jul 1996 18:28:59 GMT
Organization: CMPSCI Department, UMass Amherst
Greetings from Lyle FitzWilliam!
cyberspace at midlink.com wrote:
: In article <4t390u$b4b at news.eecs.umich.edu>,
: damouth at krusty.eecs.umich.edu (Daniel Damouth) wrote:
: >I am looking forward to my first Pennsic, but I'm also very
: >worried about my feet, which have longstanding sports-related
: >injuries. They are fine in the right kind of sneakers,
: >but there is no other kind of shoe that I can wear for more
: >than a few hours without lots of pain.
: >
: >I'm wondering if it's possible to somehow make a period-
: >looking shoe out of a pair of sneakers. Has anyone done
: >anything like this? I was thinking along the lines of
: >using felt or some fabric to wrap around the shoes, but
: >I would not rule out more drastic alterations. I'm willing
: >to gut the shoes just to preserve the bottoms.
: Don't worry about your foot-wear. The advice from Pennsic veterans--and
: I have 3 years of Pennsic experience to back it up--is to wear shoes that
: you will be comfortable walking in. The site is huge (I walked it end to
: end once, and I would swear that it is 2 or more miles at its longest
: point) and you *will* walk several miles a day. Authenticity will just
: have to make way for common sense in this particular instance. Besides,
: I have worn obviously modern foot-wear and no-one has mentioned it, or
: even noticed it.
"Don't bother trying to appear more authentic, no one will notice or care."
Maybe they didn't mention it, Erzsebet, but that doesn't mean that they didn't
notice it. I know that people notice my boots, which aren't _obviously_
modern, and have had people remark on them occasionally.
Daniel, here's some advice from another Pennsic veteran (8 years,
non-consecutive): Wear comfortable, supportive shoes. Ah, I see that you
already intend to do that, but you feel that their appearance doesn't match
with the image you want to project. Wrapping the shoes is one option
(depending on the image you want to make), making an overshoe is another (with
either a complete, thin sole or with a stirrup, like spats). A third option
is to attach an upper to the top of the shoe, either by sewing or with glue.
I'd suggest the overshoe or spat. It allows you to get at the laces to make
sure that your sneakers are comfortable and fit properly, and it will allow
you to use the sneakers for other occasions later. I wouldn't recommend
gutting the sneakers -- if you're going to do that, you might as well make
shoes from scratch and use arch supports inside them.
In service,
Lyle FitzWilliam
------------------------------------------------------ NON ANIMAM CONTINE
Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gray at cs.umass.edu
Phone: (860) 728-6777, FAX: (860) 247-0249
From: 0003900943 at mcimail.COM (Marla Lecin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sneakers at Pennsic
Date: 26 Jul 1996 11:07:30 -0400
Greetings from Jessa d'Avondale!
My first SCA shoes were China slippers. I gave up on them after
going through many pairs in my first few years, since they have no
padding or support to speak of, and they shrink after wading through
the Pennsic puddles.
These days, I either wear ankle-high boots (with no heels to speak
of) or inexpensive shoes from Thom McAn or K-Mart (loafer/slipper style;
I've found them in leather, fabric, velveteen, and even brocaded fabric).
I also splurged on one pair of the Easy Spirit "looks like a shoe,
walks like a sneaker" flats, which have good support and padding.
I also have a pair of clogs that I use when it gets rainy at Pennsic.
They have wood soles, so they aren't incredibly comfortable for long
distances, but they do keep your feet above the mud.
I added arch support inserts to the boots, and Dr. Scholl-style foam pad
inserts to the other shoes. The foam inserts can make all the difference
when you are standing on hard floors, or walking miles at Pennsic! They
do take up space, so you may have to buy slightly larger shoes than usual.
Suggestions for newcomers to Pennsic: bring several pairs of shoes.
The shoes you wear late at night will become wet with dew, as will those
you wear in the morning. You'll want to have something else to wear
while those dry. (And that's not accounting for rainy days!) Going
barefoot is not a good option; the paved roads will be too hot, and the
unpaved roads have lots of stones. Even in your own camp, there are
all those tent stakes to worry about.
Jessa
From: jkrissw at aol.com (JkrissW)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sneakers at Pennsic
Date: 28 Jul 1996 01:36:43 -0400
"James Turner" <turner at blackbear.com> writes:
>What options might exist for those of us who require prescription orthotic
>inserts? These normally require that the entire original insole be removed
>from a shoe/sneaker/boot, and these placed in. They are also too tall to
>fit comfortably into footware without an insole.
>
>Yitzhak
I have fallen arches so low I make squishy sounds if I'm walking across a
hard wet floor barefoot. When I made my SCA boots a few years ago, I
built in some non-prescription arch support inserts. Presently, I use a
prescription (removable) orthotic in my other shoes, and am going to send
my boots down the street to the local shoe repair guy to pull out the
(cemented in) insole/support assemblies so I can use the othotics in them
instead. It strikes me that the only types of shoes you really have to
pull something out of are those with some kind of "support" (e.g. typical
athletic shoe insoles) added, and that you shouldn't have a problem with a
normal flat-surfaced insole.
Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid
mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A.
jkrissw at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sneakers at Pennsic
From: mermaid at prostar.com (Mermaid)
Date: 27 Jul 96 18:22:42 PDT
T> What options might exist for those of us who require prescription orthotic
T> inserts? These normally require that the entire original insole be removed
T> from a shoe/sneaker/boot, and these placed in. They are also too tall to
T> fit comfortably into footware without an insole.
what i'm doing <granted, this is my first attempt at making shoes>, is to
built the shoe around my prescription orthotics. all of the measurements,
the pattern, and the mock-up have been made with me standing on the insole.
they aren't finished yet, but this pair of shoes is promising to be more
comfortable than anything i have mundanely.
Melusine d'Argent
From: Brett Harrison <routier at mailhost.world.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sneakers at Pennsic
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 20:45:16 +1100
Organization: Polar Bear Radios International
JkrissW wrote:
> When I made my SCA boots a few years ago, I
> built in some non-prescription arch support inserts. Presently, I use a
> prescription (removable) orthotic in my other shoes, and am going to send
> my boots down the street to the local shoe repair guy to pull out the
> (cemented in) insole/support assemblies so I can use the othotics in them
> instead. It strikes me that the only types of shoes you really have to
> pull something out of are those with some kind of "support" (e.g. typical
> athletic shoe insoles) added, and that you shouldn't have a problem with a
> normal flat-surfaced insole.
I agree.
Removable orthotics are the way to go.
To relieve the load on your feet, I also
recommend lamb's-woool innersoles.
I just completed a 12-mile route march with
just such an arrangement.
/------------------------------------\
| Brett Harrison (routier at world.net) |
| World President, |
| Polar Bear Radios International |
\------------------------------------/
Subject: Viking footware page
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 03:38:27 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: "Mark.S Harris" <rsve60 at msgphx1>
A little independant website on Jorvik shoes.
http://www.spoon.demon.co.uk/vikes/index.html
A page recently listed off the Regia Anglorum links page.
(They also have a page of their own (as usual it makes
you drool at the authenticity). But theirs doesn't have
plans just great pictures and a basic explanation.)
Not too shabby. Not Marc Carlson, but the patterns are
a little different. Probably deserves a link or a looksee.
There used to be another page on Viking Footwear that has
disappeared, or most links to it no longer work. This is
an alternative. There aren't that many sites on medieval
shoes.
For those that don't know Marc Carlson is the kind gentle
who put the Footwear of the Middle Ages on the SCA A&S
pages. Quite a gift. Unparalleled in the subject on the web.
Magnus
Subject: Boots and Shoes
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 11:52:08 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: Merryrose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Since someone asked for information on boots:
For those truehearts who wish to make their own -
The premier site for make your own medieval shoes is:
Footwear of the Middle Ages by I. Marc Carlson,
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM
(For the Mongols there is a plan for Mongol boots.)
Marc also contributes to Leather Crafter's Corner:
http://web0.tiac.net/users/hollyoak/lthcraft.htm
(Both the above are reachable from http://www.sca.org/ .
The stockclerk also sells some patterns for shoes.)
Then there is Paul Lalonde's Burgundian Court Shoes:
http://www.loonie.net/~plalonde/World/SCA/shoe.html
Regia Angolrum's page on Medieval Leatherworking:
http://www.ftech.net/~regia/leatwork.htm
Costume Designs Footwear page for the Renn boot how to's is
not really medieval, but tastes vary... (read his ethics page).
http://www.uit.net/wmorris/costume/footwear/footwear_index.html
Some opinion and references on Scottish and Irish shoes at:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4715/shoes.html
Basic Viking Footwear at:
http://www.spoon.demon.co.uk/vikes/vikshoe.htm
..................................................
For those who wish to buy -
Shoes and Boots from Historic Enterprises (Swan and Lion):
http://www.historicenterprises.com/swanlion/Swan_index.html
http://www.historicenterprises.com/arms_and_armor/shoes_and_boots.html
Museum Replicas sells shoes and Boots that aren't too bad:
http://www.museumreplicas.com/
Then there is Chivalry Sports, also not too bad:
http://www.renstore.com/index.shtml
(Above are fairly good. Christian Fletcher Armory was selling Medieval
Turnshoes, but not in the current catalog.)
For those in cold climates, Mystic Caravan's Aussie Dogs sheepskin
boots and shoes: http://frognet.net/mystic-caravan/Aussie1.htm
They have a fairly primitive look to them. I think L. L. Bean sells
them too in season.
Minnetonka sells what they term Renaissance Boots:
http://www.minnetonka-by-mail.com/
Many folks buy these reasonably priced boots. Not really period but...
Tandy Leather: http://www.tandyleather.com/ has plans and supplies
for moccasin styles and leather.
.....................................................................
*(Before the Authenticity Police (TM) come after me, I do not endorse
the Renn Boot styles but tastes vary. Anyway, I have the
MoLondon book, MoDenmark book, and others on real period shoes.
I'd like to see them walk Pennsic in one thin layered sole.) ;8^P
Catskill Mountain Mocassins for really outrageous Renn Boots:
Some of the Dream Shoes from Bald Mountain Moccasins are not too
far OOP looks, but with thick soles: http://www.dreamshoes.com/
I would think that some of these might be good for Pennsic rocks.
And more outrageously styled Renn Boots from those folks:
http://pw1.netcom.com/~majormic/baldmtn.html
Put on your dark glasses for these Renn Boots:
http://www.sodhoppers.com/moccasin.htm
.....................................................................
International Internet Leatherworkers Guild pages: http://iilg.org/
for general Leather Information.
This was written for the webenabled to find sources, especially the
newbies.
M. Magnus Malleus, Atlantia and the GDHorde
Permission granted to repost within the SCA, (but OFF the Rialto).
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:18:16 MST
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson at utulsa.edu>
Subject: ANST - Footwear of the Middle Ages
To: medieval-leather at egroups.com
CC: h-costume at indra.com, ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG,
SCA-UNIVERSITAS at LIST.UVM.EDU
For those who are interested, the website Footwear of the Middle Ages has
moved to
"http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOEHOME.HTM";
Please feel free to pass it on.
Marc Carlson
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:45:45 MST
From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at bga.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - A question about footwear
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
>Who will determine what
>is appropriate and what isn't? Are Tivar's Nikes inappropriate
>or is it just to remove white tennis shoes and combat boots
>from the list?
Um... you excellency... go take a look at the footwear shown in
http://www.realtime.net/~moondrgn/Blackfriars.html
before you start thinking that white tennis shoes shouldn't be allowed.
-Tivar Moondragon
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gabrielle Bombard <KiaraPanther at excite.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: footwear help
I just picked up this really cool book from the library called Hispanic
Costume 1480-1535 (I think). It has a whole section on footwear using
period paintings and sculptures as examples. It would be a good place to
start, as Italy and Spain seemed to exchange ideas rapidly.
--Kiara
From: goakes at tiresplus.com
Subject: RE: [tri-temp] Period Shoe covers
Date: October 15, 2009 6:26:45 AM CDT
To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com
<<< Does any one have any links or ideas for period shoe covers?
I am looking to cover up my Doctors orders must wear my mundane athletic
shoes and my post - op"ugly shoe" lol in time for Fall Crown Lyst
Lady Angela di' Medici (of Castlemere) >>>
I don't know how "Period" it is but it helps, and well has done ok for me, and at least one other that I know of.
Especially as coverings for my fighter shoes (read soccer cleats, rubber points, not steel cleats)
I turned an old pair of calf-high moccasin boots into coverings for my cleats. A friend donated them to me, because the soles were worn out.
I cut what was left of the sole out of the bottom of the boot. I then cut all the way up the back of the boot, there is a seam there so just cutting out the stitching was a cinch.
I then used my leather hole punch and made holes along the bottom edge of the boot where the soles were, and matching holes up along the back of the boot where the seam was.
Then using leather shoe laces I put my cleat inside the boot and laced the bottom of the boot closed around the shoe. I then put laces in the back of the boot up the seam when I am ready to put them on.
To wear, fold the boot forward so you can get to the shoe inside, loosen the shoe laces(not boot laces) slip your foot in, and tighten. Then pull the boot up over your calf, and lace up the back with leather laces. The front laces of the moccasin, can then be tightened as needed.
There now you have hidden you mundane shoes, with a leather covering. Granted moccasins are not "period'ish" for our group, but if you apply the 10 foot rule! Bingo you're in. I know of one recent crown who wears this setup on the field, and if it's good enough for him...
...its good enough for me. At least until I can afford (or find) a pair of period turn shoes with rubber cleats for the sole :) instead of the slippery leather sole.
Hope this helps
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:09:41 +1000
From: "Kim & Steve Maynard" <smay1986 at bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] shoes was Looking for suggestions ...
To: "'The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list'"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
http://www.housebarra.com/EP/ep01/
The magazine has a really easy early period shoe pattern, similar to the
moccasins As posted earlier. There is also a pattern in a later issue on how
to turn them into boots.
If you really want to get into period shoes -
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOEHOME.HTM
William
From: "Eric W. Brown" <Brown.EricW at jobcorps.org>
Date: December 29, 2009 3:06:34 PM CST
To: "ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
If you're reduced by time, money or other factors to contemplating
Wearing black sneakers... Here are a few suggestions.
1. Walmart has Birkenstock Clog knockoffs that are VPL footwear (Vaguely Period Looking)
Cost is about $10 to $20... I paid $6 for mine on clearance. Some of the Sandals are VPL too..
2. Walmart has those "moccasin" shoes that look like someone glued leather to the top of a sneaker and replaced the laces with elastic... these are less VPL but still better than sneakers.
3. Stitch or glue thin leather over a pair of sneakers. I've done this, it's a pain, but it's
Possible to get something about as good looking as #2. (by which I mean ugly, but better than sneakers)
4. Goto Goodwill etc, pick up a pair of cheap penny loafers. Google "how to make latchet shoes" there used to be a article on how to make the conversion, by a Mayflower reenactor
(can't google it from work, sorry, I'll try to post a link later)
5. Goto the Asian Store at the mall... they will have cloth slipper shoes with plastic soles for next to nothing... they are uncomfortable, and really only good for indoor events, but again.. better than sneakers.
7. One word. Minnitonka... okay two words, Scissors.. cut off the fringe... cheap moccasin boots you can get at many country and western stores.
6. If you're more lazy than poor, and have small lady feet (I don't'), Overstock.com has the "Birkenstock London" (Google it) for about $65. Half what they cost retail. These are not terrible, best of the options here. unlike the Birkenstock clogs these have leather at the back.
Anyone else have good cheap Footwear ideas?
Here is your chance to single handedly improve the bottom 4" of the SCA!
Caladin-
From: Ceallach mac Donal <ceallach at dwarfworks.com>
Date: December 29, 2009 5:56:35 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
If you're willing to spend $75, Bohemond carries Mary Rose shoes and
Turnshoes for that price. (
http://www.nmia.com/~bohemond/Bootshop/shoe-page/shoe.html )
RenBoots carries a decent enough mary-jane for the ladies at $69
( http://www.renboots.com/mary_jane.html )
And I found those birkenstocks in european sizes 35-47 from $67-$75 at
http://search.allheart.com/?catalog=allheart&;.autodone=nsearch.html&query=birkenstock+london&x=0&y=0
Ceallach mac Donal
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 5:46 PM, John <iaenmor at swbell.net> wrote:
<<< That $46 lowtop is for a size 1-3. Not sure if anyone has feet that small
except for children. Might I suggest http://revival.us/shoesandboots.aspx
Not much more than the onsale Burkingstocks. $70-80 will get you a shoe
that at least looks period. Modern construction of course but at least the
look is right. Good call on Marc Carlson's site.
Iaen >>>
Darlene Burns wrote:
<<< If you are willing to pay $65 for birkenstocks, you can probably afford
shoes from Medieval Moccasins
http://www.medievalmoccasins.com/
Their lowtop sells for $46.
If you are handy and craft oriented, Marc Carlson's site is awesome for
shoes from just about any period and has patterns.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOEHOME.HTM >>>
From: Jean Paul de Sens <jeanpauldesens at gmail.com>
Date: December 29, 2009 9:29:28 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
No experience with the Bohemond ones, but my darling wife bought me a pair
of Native Earth ones:
http://www.nativearth.net/period.html
<http://www.nativearth.net/period.html>;about 4 years ago, and they are
awesome. I have worn them to death, fought in them at tournies and melees,
and just this year had to get them re-soled.
However, they are *way* not inexpensive shoes.
JP
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 8:29 PM, JOHN KELLER <
wolfgangvonsachsenhausen at yahoo.com> wrote:
<<< Does anyone have any experience with their Landsknecht "Cow Mouths"? They
look like a nice basic shoe that can double for "Tudor Duty" but I worry
about sturdiness and comfort.
Wolfgang >>>
From: Darlene Burns <annescvb at gmail.com>
Date: December 30, 2009 7:29:46 AM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
Believe it or not, I found a modern "cow mouth" in the Woman Within
catalogue a few years back. The pictures on their site look very similar to
what I have, and if I purchased them I would get one of the modern soles put
on for more protection and support. The shoes I have are extreamly
comfortable because the wide toe box gives you lots of "wiggle" room.
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 8:29 PM, JOHN KELLER <
wolfgangvonsachsenhausen at yahoo.com> wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with their Landsknecht "Cow Mouths"? They
look like a nice basic shoe that can double for "Tudor Duty" but I worry
about sturdiness and comfort.
Wolfgang
--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Ceallach mac Donal <ceallach at dwarfworks.com> wrote:
<<< If you're willing to spend $75,
Bohemond carries Mary Rose shoes and Turnshoes for that price. (
http://www.nmia.com/~bohemond/Bootshop/shoe-page/shoe.html
)
From: Casey Weed <seoseaweed at gmail.com>
Date: December 30, 2009 9:39:28 AM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
Hanse, here, and I see that it's time to shake some sense into the ether.
Thank God there's me for this. This is going to be a little wordy but I
won't charge you sad people for my time.
Look, bad shoes can ruin your whole week, not just your weekend, and there
have been some grade A rotten shoe suggestions here. I won't out you...
it's the holidays and your famillies have probably talked about you enough.
Ren faire gillie/mocca-SINS with grammaw's coin purse toe suck. They let
water in better than a Trimaran crab trap, the soles are thin, the thongs
break, they're neither warm nor cold, and the only academic reference to the
design as it stands are in Harlequin Romance's Annual Wedding Magazine that
pixies foist on you at the Scarborough Grove of Plumpy Nuptual Bliss. No
support in them and no room to improvise support.
Birkenstocks look like what they are: hippy sandals. There are a few models
that approximate a period shoe: the Athenian and the one that looks a bit
16th century that one of our expatriate plump deutche ritters was famous for
wearing. They're not cheap. If you get em wet, they fall apart pretty
quick. They have "Birkenstock" on the buckle which is great if that's your
name. My name is Lord Hanse "Gift of Knowledge" Kleermaker, Rescinded Baron
of Ravensfort... needless to say they don't have my model. Get em if you
need to look like a Brueghel painting, want to spend $120, and don't intend
to get em wet. You may wind up smelling like patchouli and hemp because
they signal the hippy crowd that you're "420 friendly".
Bohemonds shoes don't make the grade. They have a nice modern tough sole
but the uppers are so flimsy that the laces tear out too early to enjoy
them. They only look like Mary Rose shoes if you're the kid who doesn't
understand the "one of these things is not like the others" game on Sesame
Street. Buy a pair, throw away the uppers, and make a shoe from the sole.
I complained to him about mine... he told me "tough noogies... you have
weird feet." Perhaps he doesn't get my charm.
JP suggested some high faluty shoe (oops, outed). I see three designs on
that page that I could safely say pass for authentic- and several that would
fit in on either a Star Trek alien or a wizard from Deathstalker II, so
beware. Also, they run up to about $400. They look well-built and if you
can afford them please give me the cash and I'll get you a pair just like em
for less and pocket the change. Don't talk about JP; Owen hits him in the
head and then he makes Bad Choices.
Or... you can spend $80 and get these:
http://www.revivalclothing.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&;ProdID=9
Period buckles, sturdy leather, they look right for about the middle 200
years of what we do, and they're roomy enough for an insert or even the guts
of a Nike athletic shoe. They can take an over sole. They can be resoled.
Yes, these cost 20 bucks more than some of the "bargain" shoes mentioned.
That's four Happy Meals. Two hours work at minimum wage. That's one fourth
of a Brazillian waxing. Hold back on one hour of pleasure with a Bjornsborg
tavern "customer service professional" and you have saved all you need- only
a half hour if she's Italian.
But the real moral of this is: THERE IS NO SUCH BEAST AS A BARGAIN SHOE.
It's not worth the grief to risk it and it's too cheap to even consider it.
If you are unswayed imagine cold, wet, feet. Imagine blisters. Imagine
broken laces and flippy floppy soles. Imagine the secret sniggering of Sir
Alexis and Sir Gaston as they judge you by your inauthenticity with all
those other judgey knows-what's-period laurel types. Imagine your grade
school football coach laughing at you as you try to limp out that last lap,
with cold, throbbing toes. If you can't figure out how to get the extra 20
clams come talk to me; we'll play cards with what you do have and I'll go
buy a pair for me.
As always, glad to help.
Hanse
From: Darlene Burns <annescvb at gmail.com>
Date: December 30, 2009 11:02:18 AM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Casey Weed <seoseaweed at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Ren faire gillie/mocca-SINS with grammaw's coin purse toe suck. They let
water in better than a Trimaran crab trap, the soles are thin, the thongs
break, they're neither warm nor cold, and the only academic reference to the
design as it stands are in Harlequin Romance's Annual Wedding Magazine that
pixies foist on you at the Scarborough Grove of Plumpy Nuptual Bliss. No
support in them and no room to improvise support. >>>
*I will out myself, since anybody reading this thread has already figured it
out t'was me. :)*
**
*I have owned 2 pairs of the "coin purse toe" shoes, one of which I
eventually (after 15 years) wore out the heels and necessitated the second
pair. Before you say "So sorry for you", I want to say that yes, they are
not a wet weather shoe at all...I don't wear them where it is wet...or sandy
for that matter for similar reasons. I wear these where the grass is mowed,
the dirt is packed well, or in the indoor hall type venue. I found that an
arch support worked quite well in them and I have *never* broken a thong. I
have always found them to be very comfortable. *
**
*As far as the academic reference goes, they are better than sneakers and
almost all of the time are unseen because my skirts are more than floor
length in most cases. When they are glimpsed they do not scream
"NIKE!!!!!!", do not light up, nor have day-glow orange strips on them
somewhere.*
<<< Or... you can spend $80 and get these:
http://www.revivalclothing.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&;ProdID=9
*Nice boots. I agree that they look very nice. Not a bad price either*
But the real moral of this is: THERE IS NO SUCH BEAST AS A BARGAIN SHOE. >>>
*I tend to agree with you. Several pairs of shoes that I own are much more
expensive than what you mention.*
**
*However, if I read the original thread correctly, the thrust of this is how
to dress on a budget that is tighter than what I have had to deal with in
quite some time. There are folks that a $20 difference is not "4 happy
meals" but enough gas to get to work that day and back. While *I* have
reached a stage of my career and pay grade that I have the luxury of
actually buying from artisans who do the research and make the
products...there are still enough folk in the SCA who can't that suggestions
for what alternatives are available is worth discussing.*
<<< It's not worth the grief to risk it and it's too cheap to even consider it.
If you are unswayed imagine cold, wet, feet. Imagine blisters. Imagine
broken laces and flippy floppy soles. Imagine the secret sniggering of Sir
Alexis and Sir Gaston as they judge you by your inauthenticity with all
those other judgey knows-what's-period laurel types. >>>
*At the risk of starting the old debate of compulsive authenticity vs.
creative anacronism, the Society only requests that an attempt at period
clothing be made to attend Society functions. *
**
*I have observed that most who can afford to get items that are closer to
what was in period (or those who have the interest and skills to research
and make their own) have grown up enough through the years to be much more
tolerant of the foibles of others around them. I still occasionally run
into new folk that tell me of some run-in with an authenticity maven, but
most of the horror stories I hear come from those who entered the Society 20
or more years ago. *
**
*It is my opinion that people finally got the message that dissing
somebody's good faith attempt at a period look is not a "good thing" either
for their karma, the person being dissed nor the society as a whole. Mainly
because many of those so dissed said "Hey, I can get this in the real
world...I don't need it from my hobby!" and left the Society never to
return. Who knows what marvels of art or courtesy were thus lost to us
forever? *
**
*Besides Sir Alexis is one of the nicest gentlemen it has been my pleasure
to know. "Secret Sniggering" at someone else's garb is just not his style! *
--
Annes
From: Tomas Niallagain <siortomas at gmail.com>
Date: December 30, 2009 11:17:20 AM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
Sorry you had problems with Bohemod's. I love my boots, I still wear
my original set for fighting, resoled once and just now wearing out the
upper, I've had them for 9 years with a lot of wear. Now I have a second
pair for dress, these are maybe 2.5 years old and I have revival's tall
boots when I really want to make a statement. For shoes I have 2 pair, one
revival and 1 pair made for me for my vigil 3 years ago by Baron Daire of
Elfsea, both are soft soled but when I add in the wooden pattons my feet are
saved much misery when walking on rocks.
I would recommend people shop around, find what they like. Try on shoes if
possible, but remember custom shoe makers make just that shoes customized to
your feet. In my experience that has made the difference in the long run
over "off the shelf" foot wear, especially since I have narrow heals which
make "off the shelf" hard to fit just right. Also most people have 1 foot
smaller that the other, modern shoe makers make up for this with the nice
soft cushions on the inside, yet another problem solved with custom made
footwear. Yes custom footwear is more expensive up front but the wear is
better (IMHO) and from the right cordwainer (maker of shoes--cobblers repair
shoes) they last longer. All of these things can make the cost average for
wear to be lower over the life of the footwear, but if you are looking for
cheap now and better later then try on the shoes check the fit yourself and
make sure you like the way they look. Don't forget to do a little research
into the way your footwear should look for your persona so you will truly be
happy until the day you can get that custom pair.
Tomas
From: Iago <baroniago at earthlink.net>
Date: December 30, 2009 4:27:27 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
Hanse may not approve of them, but the Bikenstock London model is wonderful (and expensive). I have not attracted any patchouli smelling followers trying to put beads or flowers or friendship bracelets on me.
If someone gets their face close enough to it to read anything stamped into the buckle they have bigger problems than words on the buckle.
In addition, they are comfortable enough to last two weeks at Pennsic as my primary shoes, two weeks of roaming through Brussels, Gronnigen, and other parts near Hanse's homeland. I won't go tromping through puddles in them, but they last well in wet grass.
Iago
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Sawyer <ysabeau.lists at gmail.com>
Sent: Dec 30, 2009 1:17 PM
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Cheap footwear.
All I have to say on this subject is that, while I appreciate trying to find
period shoes, the most important thing is that they be comfortable. The best
looking shoes do you no good when your feet are too blistered to walk. In
the end, you can't enjoy war unless you can walk. If your feet hurt too bad
or are too blistered to walk, what fun is that? So, if in doubt, my
recommendation is to go with comfortable. Comfortable and period is
wonderful but I've found they tend to be on the expensive side.
I usually take at least four pairs of shoes to war so I can switch them out.
I make sure one pair is a slip on pair for that 5 a.m. privy run.
Ysabeau
To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: sticker shock
Posted by: "warbow67" warbow67 at yahoo.com warbow67
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:01 am ((PDT))
--- In scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com, Phoebe Gleeson <feebeeglee at ...> wrote:
<<< "But SHOES, people. And these kids, their feet still GROW." >>>
As I am also getting back into it after a quarter century and I am also now very authenticity conscious, I studied medieval shoes carefully. To my surprise I discovered that Dark Ages/early Middle Ages shoes are very similar to US Eastern Woodland Indian center-seam moccasins. The patterns are easy to find and they are cut from a single piece of leather and a quick to make. That would be my best advice to shod the feet of a battalion of children.
Dave H
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