boots-msg - 9/13/00
Period boots and SCA imitations.
NOTE: See also the files: shoes-msg, p-shoes-msg, shoemaking-msg, leather-msg lea-tanning-msg, leather-dyeing-msg.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: BJECT:Boots (and other nifty stuff too)
From: :890045c at falcon.acadiau.ca
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 94 23:54:00 -0500
Organization: -=- Compu-Data * Turnersville, NJ -=-
FC>I'm looking for knee-ish high, soft leather boots.
FC>(and sure, other nifty SCAish leather things too)
FC>Where might I buy such things for a reasonable price?
Those with cash, good luck in your hunting. I was offered a pair of
period fencing boots, handmade to my feet, for $350 by Colwyn Cobbler of the
Shire of Iron Bog, Kingdom of the East.
I am sure he would have done a wonderful job. But as a beginning fencer
who had just spent $200 on fabric and patterns to transform it into a proper
cover for my 3-weapon jacket (seems Cosimo diMedici and I shared many
similar measurements) I decided to hold off a year and use the $25 books I
got from the Deutche Demochratache Republic Going out of Business sale.
Available from several surplus dealers, they are a wonderous starting
fencer's boot - but warning - you will find yourself adding gel-pad inner
soles and moleskin, etc to avoid blisters.
Aleksandr the Traveler
[david.razler at compudata.com]
From: rhiannon5 at aol.com (Rhiannon5)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie in search of garb
Date: 29 Aug 1994 14:34:04 -0400
millsbn at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Bruce Mills) writes:
::I was just today perusing the catalogue of U.S. Calvary, and they had
::listed "Russian Officer's Boots", which they said would be acceptable for
::Civil War re-enactment groups (their claim). I beleive they listed at
::$59 (US). Knee high, black leather, look good in the photo.
::Unfortunately, I don't have the address info handy
I was able to get german miltary boots ( Knee high black leather ) for
$19.00 for mens and $15.00 for women, from a catalog call The Sportsman's
Guide. I don't have the address or any other information. The boots are
very nice and all leather with rubber soles. The only problem is they do
tend to squeaky, so plan to break them in a lot. The catalog is really
hunting oriented (and a little offensive) but if you can find it the deals
are worth it.
Rhiannon ne Brennen
From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie in search of garb
Date: 30 Aug 1994 17:01:59 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
East German boots: I do like these; I wore my pair in the mud at Pennsic,
and remained dry and sure of foot. They are not really authentic, but
they look reasonable. And they are very cheap. However, unless you have
very thin calves, you will need to open up the back seam at the top of the
shaft to get enough room for your leg.
I get 'em through Sportsmen's Guide: 1-800-888-5222 for customer service, or
write at 411 Farwell Ave., So. St. Paul, MN 55075-0239. They're $18 plus
shipping, a very good price for a leather boot.
Speed and quality of service are about average. The text of the catalog is
a bit over the top at times, but not too bad.
Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: steve.mercer at network.com (Steve E. Mercer)
Subject: CRAFTS: Leather Boots
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 23:14:15 GMT
I want to make historically accurate leather boots in a style that
would be appropriate for an Italian man in the late 1400's
The artist Sandro Botticelli lived from about 1445 to 1510 CE, so
I am assuming that the boots shown in his paintings are appropriate
for that time period. I have decided to base my first attempt on
boots shown in Botticelli's series of paintings "The Story of
Nastagio delgi Onesti" First, Second, and Third Episodes (at Prado,
Madrid). (Found in Gramercy Great Masters "Botticelli" ISBN
0-517-10100-9 copyright 1994)
I chose these paintings because there are several people pictured
wearing identical boots, we see the boots from all sides, and the
paintings are detailed enough that they show the seams where the
leather was stitched together.
I have purchased Tandy's "Apache Boot" (?) pattern to get
instructions on how to construct boots, and a basic pattern to work
from. I have started cutting pieces of scrap muslin and sewing them
together in an attempt to work out an accurate pattern, but I have some
questions that I cannot answer from studying the paintings.
What type of leather is appropriate? These are soft boots, and seem
almost like leather stockings rather than protctive footwear. They are
light tan in color with black cuffs. The main part of the boot appears
to be smooth and the cuffs look like suede to me. Should I use oil or
vegetable tanned leather? Is suede Period?
The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps,
buttons or lacings. They are also shown to be rather close-fitting
around the ankle. How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and
still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or
something?
Any help would be appreciated.
---
Justin Silvanus
Barony of Nordskogen, Principality of Northshield, Middle Kingdom
Steve Mercer
steve.mercer at network.com
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: CRAFTS: Leather Boots
Date: 15 Oct 1994 23:15:38 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
steve.mercer at network.com (Steve E. Mercer) writes:
|> I have purchased Tandy's "Apache Boot" (?) pattern to get
|> instructions on how to construct boots, and a basic pattern to work
|> from. I have started cutting pieces of scrap muslin and sewing them
|> together in an attempt to work out an accurate pattern, but I have some
|> questions that I cannot answer from studying the paintings.
Although I don't know for certain, I think the 'Apache Boot' pattern is for
a 'mocassin' style boot (ie. there is no 'sole' as such).
A better choice would have been the 'Plains Indian' Boot pattern, which
is a type of turn shoe. You can use this pattern to come up with patterns
for a shoe that will fit your foot, and then cut and paste the pattern so
the seems end up where you want them. I use this pattern to make a number
of early period shoe styles.
|> What type of leather is appropriate? These are soft boots, and seem
|> almost like leather stockings rather than protctive footwear. They are
|> light tan in color with black cuffs.
Of the three main types of leather available in the middle ages (ignoring
for the present the substancial overlaps), alum tawed skins would have been
used for shoes intended for indoor/fair weather use. It would not have been
a good choice for shoes that were going to get wet alot. Alum tawed skins
are not commonly available today, and when available, they tend to be expensive
(used in conservation bookbinding).
Veg-tanned leather is a likely candidate, but fine, supple vegetable tanned
leathers are not easy to find. Most veg-tann is made for tooling, belts,
shoe soles, saddles, etc., and so is manufactured in such a way that it is
fairly firm. If you look around, you might find something flexible enough
that you can make this sort of boot.
As mentioned in some earlier postings in another thread, real oil-tanned
leather is not the same as what is commonly marketted as 'oil-tanned'
leather today. Chamois is an oil-tanned leather. Not a great choice for
shoes (IMO).
While the desire to use the most appropriate leather is admirable, I'm not
sure that it is entirely possible, short of researching period leather tanning
methods and making the leather yourself.
My own inclination would be to make a substitution. I'd use a soft, full-grain,
chrome tanned leather.
|> The main part of the boot appears
|> to be smooth and the cuffs look like suede to me. Should I use oil or
|> vegetable tanned leather? Is suede Period?
Perhaps the 'cuffs' are just the upper part of the boot turned down (and dyed
black). The light tan colour suggests veg-tann, but alum-tawed skin can
be dyed to pretty much any colour desired. I believe that someone posted
a reference once indicating that suede was period, but I'm not sure that
it would have been regarded as a good choice for shoes. Buff leather would
look pretty much like suede, and should be a light tan colour. I don't know
enough about it to be able to say whether it would be suitable for shoes,
but given that it is an oil-tanned leather, I suspect it would be like a
heavy chamois.
|> The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps,
|> buttons or lacings. They are also shown to be rather close-fitting
|> around the ankle. How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and
|> still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or
|> something?
If this is indeed how they were made, the leather would probably need to have
a bit of stretch in it, and the fit would have to be just right. Perhaps
Botticelli wasn't painting 100% accurately. I don't know enough about footwear
from Italy during this period to be able to comment further.
Cheers, Balderik
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: CRAFTS: Leather Boots.
Date: 16 Oct 1994 16:56:28 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
OK, NOW I'm angry.
It has just become painfully clear that my Newsreader doesn't receive all
the Rialto, since I haven't seen the message to which Balderik was
replying and had to write to Cariadoc for a copy of his test results.
>Although I don't know for certain, I think the 'Apache Boot' pattern is for
>a 'mocassin' style boot (ie. there is no 'sole' as such).
>A better choice would have been the 'Plains Indian' Boot pattern, which
>is a type of turn shoe. You can use this pattern to come up with patterns
>for a shoe that will fit your foot, and then cut and paste the pattern so
>the seems end up where you want them. I use this pattern to make a number
>of early period shoe styles.
Unfortunately, I have not actually *seen* the directions for the "plains
boots", but having seen the results of them on people's feet, I would like
to point out that they don't really look like any of the pictures we have
from period for boots (I know, like that *really* matters... :) ).
I have some personal problems with seeing 12th century "Normans" and "Welsh"
in Mocassins, as well, but that's a whole other thread. Perhaps, though,
before we give him a blanket suggestion for what to do with his pattern,
we might take a look at what he's aiming for (ie., what's he supposed to
be?).
|> What type of leather is appropriate? These are soft boots, and seem
|> almost like leather stockings rather than protctive footwear. They are
|> light tan in color with black cuffs.
>Of the three main types of leather available in the middle ages (ignoring
>for the present the substancial overlaps), alum tawed skins would have been
>used for shoes intended for indoor/fair weather use....
>Veg-tanned leather is a likely candidate, but fine, supple vegetable tanned
>leathers are not easy to find. Most veg-tann is made for tooling, belts,
>shoe soles, saddles, etc....
The pair I am wearing at the moment is made from a belly strip, and is both
very thick and supple (I'm breaking them in so they won't look "new") and
is of 8-10 oz cowhide. The soles (which are NOT of the same piece of leather,
but were originally 8-10 oz cowhide (Two layers sewn together and compressed)
are firm enough to turn broken glass with a rather hefty person standing in
them.
>My own inclination would be to make a substitution. I'd use a soft, full grain,
>chrome tanned leather.
Not to dispute you, Balderik, but it should easily be possible to find a
low weight, flexible vegitable tanned cow or calf skin. My first pair
of early shoes were of veg-tan Pig skin, and while I wan't enthusiastic about
the resulting shoes, they actually came out just fine.
|> The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps,
|> buttons or lacings. They are also shown to be rather close-fitting
|> around the ankle. How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and
|> still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or
|> something?
>If this is indeed how they were made, the leather would probably need to have
>a bit of stretch in it, and the fit would have to be just right. Perhaps
>Botticelli wasn't painting 100% accurately. I don't know enough about footwear
>from Italy during this period to be able to comment further.
Actually it's a good question, and one that has been weighing heavy on my
mind of late. OTOH, I have a pair of work boots that are rather close
fitting around the ankle, are not made of a particularly "stretchy" leather,
and I can get my foot into it with a minimal amount of trouble.
A simple scholar,
Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Shire of Northkeep, Kingdom of Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: CRAFTS: Leather Boots.
Date: 17 Oct 1994 14:40:23 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
In article <941016165646.2360ab03 at vax2.utulsa.edu>, IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) writes:
|> Unfortunately, I have not actually *seen* the directions for the "plains
|> boots", but having seen the results of them on people's feet, I would like
|> to point out that they don't really look like any of the pictures we have
|> from period for boots (I know, like that *really* matters... :) ).
Sorry, I wasn't being very clear. If you make the 'Plains Indian' boot, as
specified in the pattern, it won't look that much like most medieval shoes.
However, since it is a turn shoe, it has alot in common *conceptually* with
the European turn-shoes. In this respect, it may be a better starting point
than a mocassin-type pattern, which would be conceptually different.
Personally, I think I would have problems taking a shoe pattern from a book,
and enlarging it to the correct size for a particular person's foot. By
using the tandy pattern, I can get an idea of the proportions needed for a
particular person's foot, and then modify this pattern into something that
matches how the European shoe was cut. I've used this method chiefly for
earlier period turn shoes (Viking style with seam down the center of the
vamp and with seam at instep). I've helped someone else make patterns for
poulains using the same basic method. What I'm trying to say is that the
commercial patterns are handy for those who have trouble coming up with
the basic proportions based on a sketch/photo of the patterns in a book.
From this point, naturally, the patterns have to be altered to match the
shape/configuration of the shoe being made.
|> I have some personal problems with seeing 12th century "Normans" and "Welsh"
|> in Mocassins, as well, but that's a whole other thread. Perhaps, though,
|> before we give him a blanket suggestion for what to do with his pattern,
|> we might take a look at what he's aiming for (ie., what's he supposed to
|> be?).
Well, he seems to be indicating that he wants to make a late 15th century
Italian boot. I assumed that this is because this would be appropriate for
his persona. Although using the boot patterns is less useful for this period
than for earlier period shoes, starting with a turn shoe should be better
than starting with a mocassin.
|> The pair I am wearing at the moment is made from a belly strip, and is both
|> very thick and supple (I'm breaking them in so they won't look "new") and
|> is of 8-10 oz cowhide. The soles (which are NOT of the same piece of leather,
|> but were originally 8-10 oz cowhide (Two layers sewn together and compressed)
|> are firm enough to turn broken glass with a rather hefty person standing in
|> them.
|>
|> >My own inclination would be to make a substitution. I'd use a soft, full-grain,
|> >chrome tanned leather.
|>
|> Not to dispute you, Balderik, but it should easily be possible to find a
|> low weight, flexible vegitable tanned cow or calf skin. My first pair
|> of early shoes were of veg-tan Pig skin, and while I wan't enthusiastic about
|> the resulting shoes, they actually came out just fine.
Well, I should have prefaced my comments with something like 'In our area'.
We don't see alot of soft flexible veg-tann around here. I wish we did.
I've seen the thin veg-tan Pig Skin exactly once, in a leather wholesalers
warehouse. I was forgetting that people in other areas might be more fortunate.
I was trying to emphasize the fact that veg-tann need not be as stiff as what
is commonly available, but supple veg-tann may be hard to find, depending where
you are.
By all means, if a suitable veg-tann is available, it should be used. I was
simply trying to avoid sending someone off on a wild goose chase.
|> |> The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps,
|> |> buttons or lacings. They are also shown to be rather close-fitting
|> |> around the ankle. How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and
|> |> still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or
|> |> something?
|> >If this is indeed how they were made, the leather would probably need to have
|> >a bit of stretch in it, and the fit would have to be just right. Perhaps
|> >Botticelli wasn't painting 100% accurately. I don't know enough about footwear
|> >from Italy during this period to be able to comment further.
|>
|> Actually it's a good question, and one that has been weighing heavy on my
|> mind of late. OTOH, I have a pair of work boots that are rather close
|> fitting around the ankle, are not made of a particularly "stretchy" leather,
|> and I can get my foot into it with a minimal amount of trouble.
Well, alot depends on what the original poster meant by 'close-fitting'.
Regular cowboy boots have no ties, clasps or laces, and people get them
on their feet just fine. Are they as 'close-fitting' as the referenced
boots in the painting? I haven't seen the painting, and don't know enough
about shoes from that period to comment on that aspect.
Cheers, Balderik/Rick
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: CRAFTS: Period Shoes
Date: 18 Oct 1994 14:38:16 -0500
>cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
>However, since it is a turn shoe, it has alot in common *conceptually* with
>the European turn-shoes. In this respect, it may be a better starting point
>than a mocassin-type pattern, which would be conceptually different.
>Personally, I think I would have problems taking a shoe pattern from a book,
>and enlarging it to the correct size for a particular person's foot. By
>using the tandy pattern, I can get an idea of the proportions needed for a
>particular person's foot, and then modify this pattern into something that
>matches how the European shoe was cut. I've used this method chiefly for
>earlier period turn shoes (Viking style with seam down the center of the
>vamp and with seam at instep).....
Errr, I'm not certain that this was *originally* a turn-shoe, which, for those
who have entered this conversation late, refers to those shoes that were sewn
inside out and then "turned" rightside out. Most of the early period shoes that
I've seen that have the Vamp seam (or a seam running over the top of the shoe,
down the centerline) were sewn from the outside.