leather-dyeing-msg

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leather-dyeing-msg - 3/10/13

Dyeing and painting leather.

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From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")

Date: 6 Nov 91 14:46:00 GMT

Greetings,

A while back, someone asked for period recipes for leather dyeing, etc. "The

Plictho of Gioanventura Rosetti...." has a section on leather dyeing. I would

recommmend the 1969 reprint/translation by Edelstein and Borghetti, put out by

MIT press (sorry, don't have the ISBN handy). It has a facsimile of the

original (1548?) manuscript and translation. Rosetti was a guildmaster of a

dyeing guild in Italy. Yes, Jost, they have a recipe for blue. Your library may

have it, or they could borrow it via interlibrary loan. It is no longer in

print, but can be found in used book stores.

Winifred de Schyppewallebotham

(that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep

were washed")(Nolite Secundo Flumine Natare)

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dyeing Sheepskin

Date: 15 Feb 1994 22:09:51 GMT

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) writes:

|> Greetings from Pagan!

|> I'm not really here at the moment, but that won't stop me asking whether

|> anyone can recommend ways of dyeing sheepskin. I don't care either way about

|> the fluffy wool, but I'd like to colour the suede side. Chrome-tanned, BTW.

Chrome tanned leather has the advantage of being easily dyed using synthetic

dyes. Any suede dye (is there really anything special about suede dye as

compared to regular leather dye???) sold for shoes, etc. should do the job.

If you're talking natural dyeing, there are numerous period dyeing methods.

Although they are typically oriented towards dyeing alum tawed or vegetable

tanned leathers, they will probably work on chrome-tanned leather.

What colour did you have in mind?

Cheers, Balderik (whose currently researching and will soon be experimenting

with vellum dyeing recipes)

|> Jennifer Geard bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz

|> Christchurch, New Zealand

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Leather armour questions

Date: 16 Mar 1994 21:01:04 GMT

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <2m794e$3r2 at redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>, u_gearman at mv3800.engr.scarolina.edu writes:

|> A friend of mine who is planning on joining the Society has asked me

|> to post the following questions he has about modifying some armour

|> that he already has. He has some plate armour which has been looked

|> over and has met the requirements. However, he wants to use some leather

|> to cover up some of the plate (And the logos on his elbow and knee pads).

|> He wants to bleach the leather, though, so it's as close to white as he

|> can get it.

|> 1) Is bleached leather period. In other words, would the period

|> police get on his case for having bleached leather??

Hard to envision someone getting on his case for something like this (too

many people running around with visible pickle barrel, carpetting, and blue

foam ;). White leather is certainly period (wouldn't use the term 'bleached'

myself). Tawed (alum-tanned) leather is naturally white, and is about the

only way to get a really white leather (aside from painting it). Tawed

leather is sensitive to moisture however, so it was probably not used very

much in armour applications (hard to know for sure). Rawhide can be made

white by sufficient stretching (ie. when it becomes parchment/vellum), but

it is even more sensitive to moisture than Tawed leather. It may be possible

to oil/wax the rawhide or tawed leather to make it moisture resistant, but

I have no idea whether this is workable or authentic. It should be noted

that I'm talking in terms of work-a-day armour here. Things like parchment

were used in making crests for parade/tournament armour.

Leather was sometimes coated with gesso and paint. That's probably the best

tack to take, ie. use whatever leather works best for the armour, and then

paint it white.

|> 2) What kind of bleach could he (or should he) use??

Other than paint (or a dye that essentially functions as paint), there's

not alot you can do to a leather to make it white after the fact (ie.

I don't think tawing a veg-tanned leather will turn it white). I don't

want to even think about what something like chlorine-bleach would do to

leather.

|> Rolland Steveneson

Cheers, Balderik

From: afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Leather dying & dressing

Date: 3 Sep 1995 15:27:03 GMT

C.P.Ontis (75057.1341 at CompuServe.COM) wrote:

: Gentels

: I am trying to collect period forulas for leather dying &

: dressings. Please post if you have any. I'll offer mine here.

What I have is too large to readily post, and I'm nowhere near finished

translating from the old English. _The Secretes of Alexis of Piemont_

(ISBN 90 221 0707 8) has a number of recipes for blue, red, black and

green dyes for leather. Some are immersion dyes, and some are surface

treatments.

The book is a reprint of a 1558 edition that was itself originally

published in Italian. I only have copies of large chunks of the text,

but it's next on my list of things to buy as it also has many jeweller's

formulae in it.

: I am looking for things to soften bees wax to use for dressing

: anyone got one?

: Carl

I'm pulling this out of admittedly faulty memory (and I still haven't

found that file in my unpacking from moving), but Reed's _Ancient Skins,

Parchments, and Leathers_ does detail a number of dressings. The one I'm

thinking of uses fish oil. So I'd suggest gently (double boiler style)

heating the wax with cod liver oil. If the odor bugs you, use neatsfoot

oil instead. There was more in the mixtures than that, but wax and oil

conmingled seemed to be fairly consistant.

al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu

From: afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: dye recipes from _Alexis_

Date: 13 Sep 1995 11:49:37 GMT

EXCERPTED FROM:

_The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount_

ANNO 1558

Reprinted in 1975 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam

ISBN 90 221 0707 8

To Die Skynnes Blewe, or of the Colour of Asure

Having fyrst well washed the skinne, and than wronge him, take the

berries of walwort, and elderberries, and seeth them in water, wherin

Roche Alome was dissolved, pass him once thorowe this water and let him

drie, than pass him again thorowe the same water, and being wiped and

dried againe, wash him with cleere water, than scrape out that water

with the back of a knife, and once again pass it over with the same

colour, and let it dry so that it be of a very blew or Asur colour.

To Die Skinnes in chickweede, called in Latin Rubra Maiore, or Rubra

Tinctorum, into a Redde Colour.

Having annointed, washed, wronge and layed abroad the skin, as is

aforesaied, wete it with water that white wine lees and baye salt hath

ben boiled in, and than wring him. Take than creuiles or crabbe shelles

(be they of the sea or of the river) burned into ashes, the whiche yon

shall temper with the said water of the lees and salt, and rubbe well

the skinne therwith, than washe him well with cleere water, and wringe

hym. This done, take ruddle tempered in water of lees, and rubbe the

skinne well over and over with it, and than with the foresayde ashes,

wasshinge, and wringinge it thre times. Finallye, after you have

wasshed him, and wringe him, if you thinke it not be well ynoughe, you

shall geue him one dienge with brasyll. The paste or masse of Rubia

Tinctorum, must be made with water that lees or tartre hath bene boiled

in, and the sayed water must be luke warme, and whan you make the paste

of ruddle, than leave it fo the space of a night. After this, put upon

the sayd Rubra Tinctorum, a lyttle alom, dragges,or lees, or Alome

catinum, steped in water. You maye also adde to it the colour of the

shearing of scarlet, whiche hath been taken oute boylinge in lye, which

is a goodly secrete.

To die Skinnes Greene

Annoint the skinne, and wash him well with cold water, and than in

hote water, and so wipe & drie him. This doen, take of the graines

wherby men make the sappe (the decotion wherof shall be put in thende of

this boke, with them of all other necessary thinges) and the sayde

graynes or berries muste be verye rype, than put them in cleare water,

covered a fingar height, put therein also Roche Alome, and geve theim

onelye one wawlme on the fyre. This doen, strayne them out into some

vessell, than take the skinne, and folde him in the middle, rubbing him

well on both sides, with the said sodden graines, or berries, whiche

remaine in the pan, and after with rawe Alome poulder. This doen, take

the ashes of shepes donge burned, and wete it with the saied coloure

that you strained into the sayde vessell, and rubbe the skinne wel on

every side, than cleere him again of the sated graines, and washe him

with cleere water, and set im to drie withoute wipinge him. Fynally

cast on him two glassefulles of the sayde coloure, and it will be a

perfecte greene.

Another waye to dye Skinnes Greene.

Lette the skinne be annointed, well wasshed, wronge, and stretched

oute as before, than take of the same graines and berries ye toke

before, which you shall stampe and seethe in Roche Alome water, and geve

the skynne twoo wypes over with this coloure, and so let it dry. After

this you shal geve him one dying or colouring of yellowe, made with the

graynes or berries of Nerprum, sodden in water and Alome, and a lyttle

Saffron, and you shall have an excellent greene.

There are about 6 more such recipes, all variants on green, red, or blue.

Based on this and a few other sources, I'd have to speculate that those

three colors, and black were probably the most common dyes used for

leather. All but one of the dye methods involve immersing the leather/skin.

(the one exception I haven't typed in yet, that page was more faded and

hard to read on my photocopy, but it was a blue dye using elderberries).

More later after I uncross my eyes...

al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dye recipes from _Alexis_

Date: 14 Sep 1995 12:26:20 GMT

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <436ggh$nvq at huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte) writes:

|> EXCERPTED FROM:

|> _The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount_

|> ANNO 1558

|> Reprinted in 1975 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam

|> ISBN 90 221 0707 8

|> To Die Skynnes Blewe, or of the Colour of Asure

|> Having fyrst well washed the skinne, and than wronge him, take the

|> berries of walwort, and elderberries, and seeth them in water, wherin

...snip

I'll have to look up 'walwort', but it's interesting to note that that this

is the first period recipe I've seen for blue leather that involves berries

rather than woad or indigo. Most berry dyes fade quickly when exposed to

light.

|> To Die Skinnes in chickweede, called in Latin Rubra Maiore, or Rubra

|> Tinctorum, into a Redde Colour.

....snip

|> wasshinge, and wringinge it thre times. Finallye, after you have

|> wasshed him, and wringe him, if you thinke it not be well ynoughe, you

|> shall geue him one dienge with brasyll. The paste or masse of Rubia

|> Tinctorum, must be made with water that lees or tartre hath bene boiled

|> in, and the sayed water must be luke warme, and whan you make the paste

|> of ruddle, than leave it fo the space of a night. After this, put upon

|> the sayd Rubra Tinctorum, a lyttle alom, dragges,or lees, or Alome

|> catinum, steped in water. You maye also adde to it the colour of the

|> shearing of scarlet, whiche hath been taken oute boylinge in lye, which

|> is a goodly secrete.

Neat madder recipe. Note the first dye of brasilwood used as a base. Don't

know what shearing of scarlet is.

|> To die Skinnes Greene

|> Annoint the skinne, and wash him well with cold water, and than in

|> hote water, and so wipe & drie him. This doen, take of the graines

|> wherby men make the sappe (the decotion wherof shall be put in thende of

|> this boke, with them of all other necessary thinges) and the sayde

....snip

These 'graines' are almost certainly buckthorn berries (also called French

berries, Grains of Avignon, Turkish berries, etc.) that are used to make

'sap green'. I've tried variations on Rosetti's recipes for green leather

using these berries and they work. Unfortunately, like most berry dyes, this

one fades in bright light.

|> There are about 6 more such recipes, all variants on green, red, or blue.

|> Based on this and a few other sources, I'd have to speculate that those

|> three colors, and black were probably the most common dyes used for

|> leather. All but one of the dye methods involve immersing the leather/skin.

|> (the one exception I haven't typed in yet, that page was more faded and

|> hard to read on my photocopy, but it was a blue dye using elderberries).

Yellow and brown might not have been mentioned since some tanning methods yield

these colours, and in any case, there are many commonly available plants that

will dye these colours.

|> More later after I uncross my eyes...

Looking forward to it! Thanks loads!

Cheers, Balderik

From: afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dye recipes from _Alexis_

Date: 19 Sep 1995 12:03:11 GMT

Rick Cavasin (cav at bnr.ca) wrote:

: In article <436ggh$nvq at huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte) writes:

: |> EXCERPTED FROM:

: |> _The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount_

: |> ANNO 1558

: |> Reprinted in 1975 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam

: |> ISBN 90 221 0707 8

: |>

: |> To Die Skynnes Blewe, or of the Colour of Asure

: |> Having fyrst well washed the skinne, and than wronge him, take the

: |> berries of walwort, and elderberries, and seeth them in water, wherin

: |>

: ...snip

: I'll have to look up 'walwort', but it's interesting to note that that this

: is the first period recipe I've seen for blue leather that involves berries

: rather than woad or indigo. Most berry dyes fade quickly when exposed to

: light.

That's the interesting thing about this book. A number of the dyeing

recipes contained therein involve berries. I get the impression that

light-fastness wasn't a terribly great concern, or that they would simply

re-dye a piece as it aged. This is, of course, speculation on my part.

I would love your source for the woad and Indigo recipes.

: |> To Die Skinnes in chickweede, called in Latin Rubra Maiore, or Rubra

: |> Tinctorum, into a Redde Colour.

: ....snip

<<more snip>>

: |> shearing of scarlet, whiche hath been taken oute boylinge in lye, which

: |> is a goodly secrete.

: Neat madder recipe. Note the first dye of brasilwood used as a base. Don't

: know what shearing of scarlet is.

Neither do I, that's part of my reason for posting this recipe. That

ingredient is mentioned numerous times in this book, and I've found

nothing yet that it might be, except prehaps the trimmings from fulling

scarlet fabric.

: |> To die Skinnes Greene

: |> Annoint the skinne, and wash him well with cold water, and than in

: |> hote water, and so wipe & drie him. This doen, take of the graines

: |> wherby men make the sappe (the decotion wherof shall be put in thende of

: |> this boke, with them of all other necessary thinges) and the sayde

: |>

: ....snip

: These 'graines' are almost certainly buckthorn berries (also called French

: berries, Grains of Avignon, Turkish berries, etc.) that are used to make

: 'sap green'. I've tried variations on Rosetti's recipes for green leather

: using these berries and they work. Unfortunately, like most berry dyes, this

: one fades in bright light.

There is a margin note that intimates that "Sap green" is made from the

fruit of the "doggeberry tree" that I missed when I was transcribing.

<<snip>>

: Yellow and brown might not have been mentioned since some tanning methods

: yield

: these colours, and in any case, there are many commonly available plants that

: will dye these colours.

True enough. Given the fairly long tannage time needed for the old style

pit tannage browns and yellows would be fairly normal, and unremarkable

enough that the author didn't bother with it in a book of "Secretes".

al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dye recipes from _Alexis_

Date: 19 Sep 1995 19:32:57 GMT

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <43mbhv$epo at huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte) writes:

|> Rick Cavasin (cav at bnr.ca) wrote:

|> : In article <436ggh$nvq at huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte) writes:

|> : ...snip

|> : I'll have to look up 'walwort', but it's interesting to note that that this

|> : is the first period recipe I've seen for blue leather that involves berries

|> : rather than woad or indigo. Most berry dyes fade quickly when exposed to

|> : light.

|> That's the interesting thing about this book. A number of the dyeing

|> recipes contained therein involve berries. I get the impression that

|> light-fastness wasn't a terribly great concern, or that they would simply

|> re-dye a piece as it aged. This is, of course, speculation on my part.

|> I would love your source for the woad and Indigo recipes.

Well, I've found true dyeing (as opposed to staining) with woad and indigo to

be somewhat problematic for skins. The recipes I speak of are in _The_Plictho_

by G. Rosetti. Unfortunately, I don't have the bibliographic information for

the translation I was using to hand. The last chapter is devoted to dyeing

alum tawed skins. With the indigo recipes, it is unclear (at least to me)

whether the skins are being dyed in the true sense, or merely painted/stained

with the pigment. A literal reading of the translation sounds like the latter.

|> Neither do I, that's part of my reason for posting this recipe. That

|> ingredient is mentioned numerous times in this book, and I've found

|> nothing yet that it might be, except prehaps the trimmings from fulling

|> scarlet fabric.

I doubt that it would be trimmings. Might be something derived from Kermes,

or Lac (ie. the insect dyes used for scarlet).

|> :

|> : These 'graines' are almost certainly buckthorn berries (also called French

|> : berries, Grains of Avignon, Turkish berries, etc.) that are used to make

|> : 'sap green'. I've tried variations on Rosetti's recipes for green leather

|> : using these berries and they work. Unfortunately, like most berry dyes, this

|> : one fades in bright light.

|> There is a margin note that intimates that "Sap green" is made from the

|> fruit of the "doggeberry tree" that I missed when I was transcribing.

|> :

Doggeberry tree. That's a new one. It does seem that the various species of

Rhamnus trees (buckthorn) and their fruit have aquired numerous names, so I

wouldn't be surprised if 'doggeberry' is yet another one. All references I've

seen to sap or 'bladder' green that I've seen have involved one species or

another of buckthorn.

|> :

|> True enough. Given the fairly long tannage time needed for the old style

|> pit tannage browns and yellows would be fairly normal, and unremarkable

|> enough that the author didn't bother with it in a book of "Secretes".

Well, pit tanning is just one way of doing vegetable tannages. While vegetable

tanning is never as quick as alum tawing, you don't necessarily have to do a

1 year pit tannage with oak bark. It should be possible to make thinner

leathers with say sumac leaves via a bag tannage in a matter of days to weeks.

I haven't tried that one however (well, yet. Been meaning to. Got a box of

dried sumac leaves put away. An several bags of pomegranate rinds. And a whole

barrel of oak bark chips.....and...and....)

Cheers, Rick/Balderik

From: afn03234 at afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: More leather dyes from _Alexis_ (long)

Date: 5 Oct 1995 11:46:51 GMT

EXCERPTED FROM:

_The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount_

ANNO 1558

Reprinted in 1975 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam

ISBN 90 221 0707 8

To die the said skinnes greene another waye.

Take the skinne, being annointed, wasshed, and spredde abroade, dye and

coloure him with the coloure made of sap greene, and put it a few asshes

wette in water, and so rubbe the skinne all about. And whan you have

washed and wyped hym againe, geue him one wype ouer with and Indian

coloure sodden in Roche Alome. and whan it is dryp, lay on it of the

foresayed yellow, and you shall have a fayre and lively greene.

Another waye to dye skinnes of Asure coloure, and fayre.

Take the skinnes of blacke grapes, and rubbe well your leather with all,

untill it ware somewhat blewe, and alsoo rubbe it well with, the poulder

of Indicum, then washe it drye, and polyshe it. Than stiepe the Indicum

in thicke redde wyne: and whan the skynne is wasshed, annoinct him with

it, and you shall have a fayre asured blewe.

Another maner to dye skinnes Greene.

Take rype elder berries, and the berries of walwort, and of sappe

greene, and this well stamped, you shall put into it Roche Alome, as

muche as you shall thinke good, but rather to muche than to little:

than take the lye, and put into it the saied berries of sappe greene,

and seeth them one waulme. This doen, put in the berries of the

walwort, or elder, and make them seeth also one waulme, than take them

from the fyre, and let them coole, and after rubbe the skinnes with

theim. Finallye, ye shall cast upon them, the ashes of sheepes donge,

rubbing them well eith it. After this, geve theim the couloured water

water that the saied graines or berries were sidden in, than take of the

water with a curryers knyfe, and let them drye. And yf you nede to geve

theim more coloure, than you maye put in more Indicum boyled, and wyll

be the better.

To die neates leather into a greene colour, as well in galle as in

leaves.

Polyshe well the leather with a pomineyse stone, annointe it well with

oyle, and washe it: than take an once or two of galles stamped, and put

in hote water, leaving it so an hour, than straine it thorow a linen

cloth, and put the leather into the same water, rubbinge it well with

your handes, and leave it so the space of an houre: and havinge taken

it out, wring it, and stretch it abroad & tight it. Than take the

graines or berries of Nerprum, gathered in July, whan thei be yet

greene: drie them, and stampe them well, adding therto for every skinne,

two onces of Roche Alom beaten in poulder, and mingled with the poulder

of Y saied berries or graines. Than powre upon the sayd poulder

boylinge water, and let it coole, this doen, poure of the sayd water

with the said graines upon the skinne, rubbinge it well over with the

palme of youre hande, than stiep the ashes of goates donge, in the water

of the said graines, and with the same water rubbe likewise the the skin

well with youre hande, after this washe him, and scrape out the water

with a tanners paring knife, than tight him out, and take other ripe

graines of sap grene and set them to seeth, hole, in water with Roch

Alom, and afterwarde let them coole. Than take of the sayde sodden

berries or graines, and rub the skin with theim with your handes, and

put of the ashes upon it, which you shall steip in the same greene

water, that the sayed berries were sodden in, Finallye, you shall

wasshe the skin, and take out the water with a scraping knife, that you

shall geve it a course over of the saied grene water with a brush or

clout meet for such a purpose: And than lay him to drie, and trim him,

and you shall hae a fair grene. If you will have the coloure darker, or

fadder, whan you set the said graines to seethe with the Alom, you hsall

put to it a little Indicum well brayed. And you must note, that the

water must be hote whan you sctepe the ashes in it, with the water of

the graines of Nerprum.

To die skinnes greene with the flowres of Ireos.

Take the fresshe flowres of Raphanitis, or Ireos, and stampe them well,

than take the drie graines or berries of Nerprum, and with them stampe

roche Alome, a reasonable quantitie, whereof a greate deale can do no

hurte: put to it a little raine water, and mingle all this with the

foresayd flowres stamped. Kepe this colour in some clene vessel, and

than take the skinnes, being annointed, and washed as is aforesaid, and

put to them the graines of sap grene with the poulder, in the same

manner that we have spoken of the other: washe them, and scrape of the

water with a knife, and so let them drye, and geve them one wipe over

finely with the sayed colour that you kept, let them drie again, than

dresse them according to the science, and you shal have fair leather.

(Note in margin: "Ireos, also of floure luce called in latin

Raphanitis")

al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu

From: ronch at gator.net (Ron Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Leather Dye rub off (was Re: care for Kid gloves?)

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:16:20 GMT

On 14 Jul 1998 21:12:10 GMT, dirkviking at aol.com (DirkViking) wrote:

>Could just be too much dye- after the leather saturates the rest just drys out

>on the surface and falls off. I went overboard with dye on a peice and it's

>got the same problem.

>After I clean it, any suggestions about sealing the surface (it's a baldric and

>will see combat)?

A lot depends on what dye was used. The problem tends to be really

pronounced when people use the oil dyes like Fiebling. They cover

well, and usually in a single coat but they do have a bad rub off

problem. They were created for the horse-tack market where such is

usually not too big a problem to the end user.

Excessive uses of the alcohol dyes like Tandy Pro will also rub off,

but not as badly nor as long.

In either case, start by burnishing the surface of the leather by

rubbing with a clean, dry, relatively lint-free rag. If there is any

decoration in a different color, rub _away_ from those places,

otherwise, you'll rub the black over your highlights.

Then apply a top seal. For the abuse that fighting gear gets, I'm

fond of the lacquer based compound like the one sold as "Neat-Lac"

(there are other brands, but this one is easy to find, if a bit over

priced). It isn't historical, but I've found the finish to be very

abuse tolerant. Otherwise you could use linseed oil (test on a corner

first); dried in sunlight to polymerize it, or even a good coat of

neutral shoe polish (wax).

For something that you are going to wear to fight in, seal the back,

as well, it will add years to the longevity of the piece.

For the lady with the gloves, I'm hazarding a guess that someone dyed

over the original finish of the gloves, and the dye simply doesn't

want to take. The only thing I can think of is the neutral shoe

polish. Possibly wiping them down with denatured alcohol, followed by

another dye job with an alcohol based dye might stabilize them.

al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

From: cxav at storm.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Leather Dye rub off (was Re: care for Kid gloves?)

Date: 17 Jul 1998 12:53:58 GMT

Organization: Handmade Parchment and Vellum

ronch at gator.net (Ron Charlotte) writes:

|> For the lady with the gloves, I'm hazarding a guess that someone dyed

|> over the original finish of the gloves, and the dye simply doesn't

|> want to take. The only thing I can think of is the neutral shoe

|> polish. Possibly wiping them down with denatured alcohol, followed by

|> another dye job with an alcohol based dye might stabilize them.

That was my guess as well, except that perhaps they were originally white:

ie. alum tawed kidskin

Alum tawed leather has a reputation for not taking modern analine dyes very well. Either way, the suggested remedies might help.

Cheers, Rick

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From: caxv at storm.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Leather Dye rub off (was Re: care for Kid gloves?)

Date: 21 Jul 1998 16:05:19 GMT

Organization: Handmade Parchment and Vellum

stefan at texas.net (Stefan li Rous) writes:

|> Thanks for this info. I have this problem of the red and black dyes I

|> dyed some whitish gloves with.

The leather used is likely to be either alum tawed or chrome tanned.

Chrome tanned leather has a distinct blueish-grey colour. Alum tawed tends

to be snow-white to ivory. Modern dyes are formulated for veg-tann and

chrome tanned leather. I've had weird experiences with alum tawed myself,

but I haven't done extensive studies. I've heard from others that they also

had trouble. This doesn't necessarily mean that all alum tawed leathers

cause problems with all synthetic dyes however...

|> They may well be alum tawed leather as

|> you suggest. I did put on a protective coat that the Tandy leather

|> guy suggested, but they stain my hands red if I sweat in them. What

|> is your suggestion for dye as I have another pair of untanned gloves?

In period, natural dyes were used on alum tawed skins (a good number of

'recipes', and some artifacts survive). We know they used alum tawed leather

in bookbinding, and dyed them at times. However, this is not an application

where resistance to water/sweat is very important. The alum tannage itself

is not really well suited to applications where repeated exposure to water

is expected, since the alum is not well fixed in the skin. Gloves made with

alum tawed leather are probably meant for 'dress' wear. This may have been

true of the tawed/dyed leathers prepared according to recipes like those in

The Plictho as well. The recipes don't specify the intended use the finished

skins.

I've tawed skins and dyed them with traditional dyes in assorted colours.

I haven't really put them to water tests however.

You're in a bit of a tough position with only finished gloves to

experiment on... :)

|> Is there a way to improve the gloves I have already done other than the

|> burnishing and such already suggested?

You may have loaded them up with too much dye. You could try washing them

to get the excess out, but that may also remove the tannage if they're tawed.

I know what I might try...but then I've got all the necessary stuff to re-taw

them if necessary.

Hope this helps,

Cheers, Rick/Balderik

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Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Dyeing Leather

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:55:32 EST

From: Varju at aol.com

To: medieval-leather at egroups.com

t_neill at hotmail.com writes:

<< I'm interested to hear more of the experiments with dyeing leather using

natural dyes. Did any of them work? Or would it be better to pursue

painting leather with period pigments? >>

The most notable sucess was using iron to create black, since in fabric dying tannin is the mordant used with iron. The tannin present in oak tanned leather acts with the iron to create a nice greyish-black. If you want to try it yourself, take a couple of rusty nails and put them in vinegar until they begin to break down. Us a cotton swab to apply the mixture to tooling leather. The leather will go black right behind the swab. My only concern with this dying method is that there is some evidence that fabric dyed with the iron.tannin method tend to break down faster than other fabrics.

We finally sttled on a 100 degree farenheit dye bath as the best way to avoid boiling the leather on accident and had limited success with several other dyes. All of these only showed a change of color, mosly around the edges of the test pieces after an hour in the dye baths. Walnut darkened the leather to a nice medium brown, madder gave us red, logwood gave us purple, cochineal red, and brazilwood, which was supposed to be another shade of red, was a pretty spectacular pink.

After some more reading we found that most of the existant dye recipies from period are for alum tanned leather, a garment leather not oak tanned leather. If you want more information on that I would suggest _The Plichto of Gioanventura Rosetti [1548]_ which deals with dying both leather and cloth. If you are more interested in working with tooling leather (oak tanned) there is a bit more evidence that it was painted (mostly surving pieces with bits of paint on them), or left to darken naturally with age. I have read vague references to oak tanned leather dyed black using the iron method, but nothing really firm on that.

As I mentioned before I have also seen reference, still no good firm information, about the types of paints used on leather. I found my copy of that source and all it says is that the paints used on leather were the same ones used for manuscripts. I am still looking for definitive information on that, like a chemical analysis that would give me an idea which pigments were used.

If anyone else can add any additional information on any of this I would

interested to see what others haved learned on this subject.

Noemi

From: "thomas" <tgress at sgielusive.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Leather Dyeing Question

Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:28:31 -0000

Rhys <Rhys at home.com> wrote

> I'm working on an armor project, and I've got a little question

> regarding dyeing.

> I'm making some leather scale, and I've cut out the 100+ or so pieces

> I need. In retrospect, dyeing the large piece before cutting out the

> smaller ones would have been perhaps a wiser move, but it didn't occur

> to me at the time. On the smaller projects I've done I've always cut

> and punched and shaped, etc. all the pieces, and then dyed them, so as

> to avoid uncolored edges.

> I know from some past reading (which I can't seem to find again) that

> I can dye multiple pieces at once by using a strainer and dipping them

> in a bowl or jar of dye. I'm just wondering if there are any special

> considerations or tips for dyeing this way, since I've never done it.

> Thanks!

No special considerations that I can think of. I routinely make my own

leather lacing by stripping it out of larger pieces of veggie tanned, and

then dunking them itno spirit dye of the appripriate color.

The only thing I'll say is it is a messy process. If you can, do it

outside, in the garage, etc. You'll also need a lot of cloths to buff the

pieces out once they are dyed.

Morgan

ShadowCat Leathers

From: Rhys <Rhys at home.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Leather Dyeing Question

Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:12:21 GMT

I can't speak to the period solution, but as it so happens I just had

a discussion with the guy at the Leather Factory today on just this

topic.

I use Leather Sheen myself, though my object is more to keep the dye

from rubbing off on clothing, skin, etc., and not so much to get a

shiny finish. But, I haven't had any problems with cracking on the

projects I've used it on (mostly belts and rapier frogs). Basically, I

brush on a thin coat, let it dry, and then buff it with a clean soft

cloth. If it comes out cloudy then my completely uneducated and

unscientific guess is that you're maybe applying too thick of a coat

since I've seen that happen on some of my stuff when I got a little

too zealous.

For the current project, I decided to try Tan-Kote, which the LF guy

said would impart a more subdued gloss. However, given the number of

pieces I'm working with, I decided to spray it on this time instead of

brushing. I can't say I'm happy with the results; it spotted up

(probably too much too fast or uneven coverage) and buffing doesn't

seem to be improving things. I'll probably end up brushing on a second

coat once I have the thing (a leather scale skirting for some plastic

LARP armor) assembled.

>I have taken up leatherworking, and am having a fine time with

>stamping and cutting and pounding and etc, but when it comes to the

>dyeing, im a bit confused. I have the basic coloring down pat.. I use

>Tandy dyes and a fine brush, and just keep layering it until I get the

>color I want. My question is what do *you* use to get a gloss finish

>on it? I have tried the spray stuff, and it looks great for a while,

>but starts to crack over time, and that is *extremely* noticeable on

>black leathers.. is there some kind of "period" solution to this? Or

>did they just *not* have very shiny leather in period?

>Thanks in advance!

>(I think the spray stuff is "nu kote" or something like that.. comes

>in a spray can with a label that looks like western-style stamping. I

>have also tryed that "sheen" stuff you can get at Tandy, but it always

>comes out slightly cloudy for me when dried.)

>Lord Maeryk the Rogue

From: solonshyinaz at aol.com (SoloNShyInAz)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: 17 May 2001 05:45:50 GMT

Subject: Re: Leather Dyeing Question

For a medium sheen, use either Tankote or Carnauba Cream. For a really high

shine, BUFF the dyed leather before putting anything on it and use the Super

Sheen if you can find it. If not, try a little Neat-Lac. Use it sparingly. If

it gets too thick it will crack on you. I would guess that that's your major

problem. You're probably putting the stuff on too thick.

To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Period Finishing for a leather costrel

Posted by: "Diane Sawyer Dooley" tasha_medvedeva at yahoo.com tasha_medvedeva

Date: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:04 pm (PDT)

--- In Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Apple" <tom.apple at ...> wrote:

> You can

> make the iron/vinegar by placing about half a pad of fine steel wool,

> 00 or 000, in a jar of vinegar and let it set for a couple weeks, the

> steel wool will dissolve and settle out, but when you apply the

> vinegar to the leather, the leather will turn black. Waxing and

> buffing the exterior will help seal the finish, but is not used to

> make the vessel watertight.

I tried making vinegaroon (iron oxide + vinegar) using Brillo pads,

and my leather turned grey. It's a nice color, but not what I was

after. My leatherworking teacher says it's because of the aluminum

content in the Brillo pads. I let the Brillo pads steep in the

vinegar for ~2 weeks. At the end, there was nothing left of the pads

but sediment. I may try putting more Brillo in there to see if I can

make the solution stronger, but I'm also going to be looking for

other, purer sources for iron oxide and make another bottle of

solution. White vinegar is about $2 a gallon, so it's the most

cost-effective method of coloring leather black, hands-down.

I have also read on leatherworker.net that logwood+vinegar=brown, as

do hickory nuts:

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=5607&;hl=hickory At

some point I'd like to try black walnut hulls.

Tasha

who just got new books on medieval leatherworking

and will be in her bunk.

To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Period Finishing for a leather costrel

Posted by: "valkerie1000" valkerie1000 at yahoo.com valkerie1000

Date: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:03 pm (PDT)

<<< Brown could be achieved by a variety of vegetable/plant dyes, black

would have been achieved with logwood based dyes or iron/vinegar dye.

Tom A. >>>

Or you could just throw the thing into some Pennsic water.

Have you seen what that stuff does to leather?

I threw some veg tanned stuff in there and a minute later clouds of

black stuff came off of it and when I pulled it out it looked like

oil-tanned leather. S'truth!

But on a more serious note, I would think that Walnut hulls would make a

great leather dye...

Laura

From: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com [mailto:the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David C. Baker

Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:49 PM

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: {TheTriskeleTavern} Question About Laundry

OK, got some Felz-Naptha soap and have used it. Tunic is now in the washing machine and we shall see how it all comes out. I also got some black Rit dye just in case.

Garcia

al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

thaalibi at gmail.com OR ronch2 at bellsouth.net

From: Ron Charlotte <thaalibi at gmail.com>

Subject: Sealing Leather Belts (was Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Question About Laundry)

Date: January 13, 2013 8:10:26 PM CST

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

Ever since the spirit (alcohol) based dyes were discontinued by Tandy, the problem of leather dye bleed has been a major issue, especially in our rainy and sweaty lands. The Eco-Flo dyes will eventually stabilize, but when you are trying to get a good deep coverage for color, it takes a while for it to fully cure, and getting water saturation _will_ make it bleed.

For belts, and any other leather good that will make contact with clothing, try the following:

• The instinct to use something like mink oil is a good instinct. Use your favorite sealer as a base.

• On the flesh side (the fuzzy side), once the base sealer is cured; take standard neutral shoe polish, and rub it into the flesh side and edge (get a couple of big tins, a six foot belt will absorb a _lot_ of the polish).

• Let it sit for a while, then take some brown paper (paper bag, butcher paper, or the like) and burnish the waxed leather with a fair amount of pressure against a firm surface. You will know you have burnished it enough when it's quite warm to the touch in the area you are working in, and it will take on a slightly glazed look (depends on how firm the belt leather was to begin with)

• Let that cure overnight. It's not _immersion-wet_ proof, but it will stop sweat or somewhat damp days from staining your clothing.

On 1/4/2013 3:59 PM, Juan Garcia Lopez de Mauleon wrote:

It worked! After several scrubs and washes with the Felz-Naptha soap, the leather dye stain is so faint I barely notice it. Thanks to all who commented and offered advice. It really helped!

Now to mink oil that pesky belt!

Garcia

From: al Thaalibi <thaalibi at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Sealing Leather Belts (was Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Question About Laundry)

Date: January 13, 2013 9:01:43 PM CST

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

The drying time is a big part of the issue (the same issue pops up with the low VOC paints). These new dyes take at least a solid day for a small object, and as much as 2 for large objects with multiple coats of dye. It will be dry enough to handle, fairly quick, but there's a lot of moisture that has to work it's way out for the dye to cure. I've used a sunny window, a tin roofed shed, end even the cab of my truck to speed it up. I know one leather worker that has a packing tote with some of the stuff they use to dry flowers that he puts his finished dye jobs into.

When Tandy announced that they word going to drop the spirit dyes, I said many bad words, and accumulated several quart bottles of the old pro dyes in my most used colors. I've been experimenting with period dyes. The vinegar/iron/tannin black is actually a pretty good black, and the vinegar scent only lasts a few weeks. I want to try some of the colors I've found formulas for, but most of them were designed for alum-tawed leather, it's an experiment that I need to put some time into...

On 1/13/2013 9:16 PM, Ron Osceola wrote:

<<< Oddly enough, I am finding that the sun helps even out the Eco-Flo dyes, which then seal better. I think one of the issues with the Eco-Flo dyes is drying time. I have had several pieces that took a day and a half to REALLY dry. Unfortunately, if the dye is not completely dry the sealer will not do a perfect job. My humble 2 cents.

Baavgai Monh (Ron Osceola) >>>

al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris

Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

thaalibi at gmail.com OR ronch2 at bellsouth.net

From: al Thaalibi <thaalibi at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Sealing Leather Belts (was Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Question About Laundry)

Date: January 14, 2013 7:37:11 AM CST

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

I learned that trick back when the dye of choice for black, brown, red and green belts was the Fiebling oil dyes, which would get a nice deep color on one or two passes, but was also slow curing and would bleed badly, especially if you treated the belt with something like neatsfoot to soften it. There were a lot of surcotes with colored bands around the middle...

I stole it from a horse tack maker.

On 1/14/2013 1:53 AM, Gavine Armestrang wrote:

Thalaabi,

<<< Thats awesome. I'm writing that down.

- Gavine (proud sub-producer of "Thalaabi Wax") >>>

Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:14:05 +1300

From: Glenn Adrian <gadrian at clear.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] fiebings leather dyes

To: "'The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list'"

There are several types of dyes by Fiebing's. I used several coats of the

institutional dye, which I allowed to soak in and dry in the sun. Then I

sealed the belt with Resolene. It has sealed it totally. And I have never

had any stained clothing, nor have I seen anyone else's clothing stained

from belts. Of course I assume Resolene is not period. I'm not sure what

may have been available in period.

http://www.lapco.co.nz/Products/Leather-Care-Dyes-Finishes/Finishers-and-Pre

paration/Finishers-and-Preparation/FIEBING-RESOLENE-NEUTRAL-4OZ-(120ML).aspx

Glenn

<<< I'm making a couple of belts, and I've got some Fiebing's leather dye to dye

them with. However, I've been reading horror stories on the internets about

Fiebing's dyes bleeding and ruining people's clothes, especially when the

wearer sweats.

If this happened to garb I've made, I'm quite sure I would cry.

So has anyone successfully used these dyes on belts worn by sweaty people

and what did you use to seal the dye with ?

Kazimira >>>

Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:15:37 +1300

From: "Alasdair Muckart" <silver at where.else.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] fiebings leather dyes

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

On 15 Jan 2013, at 18:04, tamara at suncrow.com wrote:

<<< I'm making a couple of belts, and I've got some Fiebing's leather dye

to dye them with. However, I've been reading horror stories on the

internets about Fiebing's dyes bleeding and ruining people's clothes,

especially when the wearer sweats.

If this happened to garb I've made, I'm quite sure I would cry.

So has anyone successfully used these dyes on belts worn by sweaty

people and what did you use to seal the dye with? >>>

If you're dyeing them black, then irons salts and tannin (tea works,

logwood is better) will never bleed.

If you want a deep brown, oil and sunlight is the best and easiest way

to get that. Both only work on veg tanned leather though.

When using modern pigment dyes there are a couple of ways to help ensure

it doesn't bleed. Glenn has talked about sealer, which is critical -

modern dyes aren't really meant to be used without them - but rubbing

off the surface 'bloom' after the dyes have dried is also really

important.

If you don't want to use a synthetic sealer, a very hefty dose of dubbin

should also do the trick.

Alasdair Muckart | William de Wyke | http://wherearetheelves.net

Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:56:50 +1300 (NZDT)

From: Alasdair Muckart <silver at where.else.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] fiebings leather dyes

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Jennifer Jacobs wrote:

<< If you're dyeing them black, then irons salts and tannin (tea works,

logwood is better) will never bleed. >>

<<< Is that a use for black iron oxide? if so what sort of quantities would

people be likely to use (I have a jar of it I could bring to market) >>>

It's worth a crack. If it's a black powder sold as pigment it's probably

Mars Black. The medieval source I'm aware of that mentions this talks

about 'copperas water'. Copperas is Iron(II) Sulfate, which is sort of

green. I've got a 19th century source as well, but I can't remember off

the top of my head what they used.

The black this dye produces doesn't come from pigment, it comes from a

reaction between the tannins in veg tanned leather and the iron salts.

It's the same reaction that causes iron nails to make floorboards go

black, and the same reaction that is used to make oak gall ink. The 19th

century source I have talks about washing the leather with logwood extract

to ensure there are enough tannins to stop the iron salts from stripping

the tannins out and damaging the leather.

Modern leatherworkers use soap-free steel wool dissolved in vinegar, I've

used this to good effect, but I've also had problems with it damaging the

grain surface of the leather because I didn't add additional tannins.

Alasdair Muckart | William de Wyke | http://wherearetheelves.net