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cl-Scotland-msg - 6/17/12

 

Clothing of Scotland. folding of kilts.

 

NOTE: See also the files: cl-Scot-fem-art, cl-Scot-male-art, cl-Ireland-msg, Scotland-msg, Ireland-msg, clothing-books-msg, fd-Scotland-msg, haggis-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Date: 9 Oct 90 02:39:57 GMT

Organization: University of Chicago

 

   Tartans Etc.

 

"I think that clan-specific tartans date from the late 18th and early

19th centuries." (Steve Duncan)

 

"A question comes to mind immediately....  How much of the clan

tartan business is a Victorian Romanticism" (Laura Rydal)

 

I read up on this subject many years ago; I am afraid I no longer

have the references. Apparently the "traditional clan tartans" were

forged by the brothers Sobieski-Stuart early in the nineteenth

century. They claimed to have gotten them from a medieval manuscript

in their possession (Vestiarum Scoticum? Some Latin name like that)

which they were very reluctant to let anyone else examine. The

Sobieski-Stuarts claimed to be descendants of both the Polish and

Scottish royal families, and were very popular with the celtophile

aristocracy of the time. There are, I believe, regimental tartans

that are much older, but I do not think any are known to be period.

 

Incidentally, the Skean Dhu (stocking knife) also appears to be a

"celtic revival" invention (not necessarily by the same people). The

Scottish Dirk, on the other hand, is real, but the earliest evidence

is slightly post-period; it appears to be a descendant of the ballock

dagger, which is period.

 

Cariadoc

(David Friedman)

DDFR at Midway.UChicago.Edu

 

 

From:    Ioseph of Locksley  

Date: 09-Oct-90 01:09pm

Subject: tartans

 

From: laura at ux1.lbl.gov (Laura Mcvay)

>Is there a good reference extant which discusses Medieval Scottish  

>Dress, with illustrations from paintings, brasses, etc.  There were

>some differences according to period accounts, but I'll like to know  

>more. Perhaps there is a book of portraits from the National Museum

>of Scotland?  I'd love to know about it and how to obtain it..

       My researches show that Scots nobility, at least, wore Anglo-French

       fashions, about 50 to 100 years out-of-date. The Highland garb was

       mostly the "saffron shirt" (which tended to be a padded gambeson)

       for men, and standard generic peasant garb for women.

"I read up on this subject many years ago; I am afraid I no longer

have the references. Apparently the "traditional clan tartans" were forged by

the brothers Sobieski-Stuart early in the nineteenth century. They claimed to

have gotten them from a medieval manuscript in their possession (Vestiarum

Scoticum? Some Latin name like that) which they were very reluctant to let

anyone else examine. The Sobieski-Stuarts claimed to be descendants of both

the Polish and Scottish royal families, and were very popular with the

celtophile aristocracy of the time. There are, I believe, regimental tartans

that are much older, but I do not think any are known to be period."

(Cariadoc)

       There are, apparently, five setts that have been accepted by Lyon

       King-of-Arms as pre-1745 -clan- patterns. Three of those are my own

       clan (MacRae) setts, MacRae Hunting/Dress, and Prince Charles Edward

       Stuart. There is also Rob Roy, and Black Watch. I have yet to find

       any pictorial evidence of tartan in medieval times, tho much from

       post 1550 can be dug out. Most of the other setts tend towards post

       Victorian times in age.

"Incidentally, the Skean Dhu (stocking knife) also appears to be a

"celtic revival" invention (not necessarily by the same people). The

Scottish Dirk, on the other hand, is real, but the earliest evidence is

slightly post-period; it appears to be a descendant of the ballock dagger,

which is period." (also Cariadoc)

       Worn in the stocking of the kilt (a post-1650 style) yes, but in

       period it was worn in the armpit. I figured out how to do this

       from research about two years ago.....and have been working on an

       article for TI on period Highland dress ever since.....should be

       ready to fly in about 6 months or so.

                                       -Ioseph of Locksley

                                        Harper to Clan MacRae

 

 

From: kinsey at nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Kinsey)

Date: 16 Oct 90 16:15:04 GMT

Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 

>>I've seen 16th century portraits (not many,