Home Page

Stefan's Florilegium

Ireland-msg



This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

Ireland-msg - 1/10/10

 

Irish culture, dress. Points of interest. Irish history.

 

NOTE: See also the files: cl-Celts-msg, cl-Ireland-msg, fd-Ireland-msg, SI-songbook1-art, Scotland-msg, potatoes-msg.

 

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

"OF IRELAND

 

Yrlonde hight Hibernia, and is an island of the Ocean in Europe, and is

nigh to the land of Britain, and is more narrow and straight than

Britain, but it is more plenteous place. . . . In this land is much

plenty of corn fields, of wells and of rivers, of fair meads and woods,

of metal and of precious stones.  For there is gendered a six cornered

stone, that is to wit, Iris, that maketh a rainbow in the air, if it be

set in the sun. And there is jet found, and white pearls. And concerning

the wholesome air, Ireland is a good temperate country. There is little

or none passing heat or cold, there be wonderful lakes, ponds, and

wells.  For there is a lake, in which if a staff or a pole of tree be

pight, and tarrieth long time therein, the part that is in the earth

turneth into iron, and the part that is in the water turneth into stone,

and the part that is above the water, abideth still in its kind of

tree.  There is another lake in which if that thou throwest rods of

hazel, it turneth those rods into ash: and ayenward if ye cast ashen

rods therein, they turn into hazel.  Therein be places in which dead

carrions never rot: but abide there always uncorrupt Also in Ireland is

a little island, in which men die not, but when they be overcome with

age, they be borne out of that island to die without.  In Ireland is no

serpent, no frogs, nor venemous addercop; but all the land is so

contrary to venemous beasts that if the earth of that land be brought

into another land, and spronge on the ground, it slayeth serpents and

toads. Also venemous beasts flee Irish wool, skins, and fells. And if

serpents or toads be brought into Ireland by shipping, they die anon.

 

Solinus speaketh of Ireland, and saith the inhabitants thereof be

fierce, and lead an unhuman life.  The people there use to

harbour no guests, they be warriors, and drink men's blood that they

slay, and wash first their faces therewith: right and unright they take

for one. . . . Men of Ireland be singularly clothed and unseemly arrayed

and scarcely fed, they be cruel of heart, fierce of cheer, angry of

speech, and sharp.  Nathless they be free hearted, and fair of speech

and goodly to their own nation, and namely those men that dwell in

woods, marshes, and mountains.  These men be pleased with flesh, apples,

and fruit for meat, and with milk for drink: and give them more to plays

and to hunting, than to work and travail.

 

Bartholomew Anglicus"

  [A quote from period. Submitted by Brent Hanner

                            <behanner at castleliechtenstein.net>]

 

-----

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: jaymin at maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)

Subject: Re: Irish Persona Help Needed!

Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 09:53:14 GMT

Keywords: surnames, garb

 

> What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names" (chiefly the

> practices for such names in 11th - 13th c. Eire)... Could someone

> recommend a book or two that talks about naming practices (especially

> *last* names; the Fidelma Maguire and Donnchadh O/ Corra/in book is no

> help in that regard)...

        I have always found indispensible tools for creating Irish

personas are the various "Annals of Ireland". I have the Annals of

Innisfallen and the Annals of Connacht. Don't be mislead by the

names, they have very little to do with the area they are named after.

        These are basically journals where the monks of the abbey would

write down a few paragraphs each year of what they though was important.

Innishfallen covers from about 430 to 1270 and Connacht covers 1200 to

1400 (or thereabouts).

        These are *brilliant* source material. They are full of names

of all sorts of people with a massive name index in the back. Instant

irrefutable documentation. You can sit down a read through what happened

in your persona's life time from a contemporary point of view.

        Needless to say they are woefully inaccurate about certain

things but then your persona would be equally ignorant. One entry catalogs

a 40' tall woman washing up on the shores of Scotland, another chronicles

the King of Alba gifting Brian Boru with a camel. Good stuff.

 

Arval writes:

>I suspect that the Irish in that period did not have "surnames" as such.

        In the Annals people are usually "Blah, son of blah". Clan

affiliations you seem to be expected to know by context or by working out

the geneologies to the many "Blah, king of blah".

 

>For a woman, the standard patronymic form is

>"ni <father's name in the genitive form>".

        Actually I've poured through the annals and never found anything

like this. There aren't too many women's names but every one I have

found so far has been "Blah daugheter of blah" in the Irish as

"blah ingen blah". What documents does "ni" or "nic" appear in?

 

Original poster:

> What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names"

        Costuming is always a problem. There are very few books on this.

What period did you have in mind? There is a book on Anglo-Norman

sculpture... Other than that there are two theories:

        1) Take English fashion of fifty to a hundred earlier that

your Irish persona.

        2) Use English Fashion if you are from Leinster, Scotish

fashion if you are from Ulster, French fasion if you are from Munster,

and Spanish fashion if you are from Connacht.

 

        In any event, don't forget there is a SCA Shire in Ireland.

We're always pleased to lend whatever hand we can to people with

Irish personas...

 

               Yours in service,

                                      Seamus Donn

 

    %     Seamus Donn              Eva de Barri            Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh

   %|%    Jo Jaquinta              Cathy Barry             Lesley Grant

/\\ | //\  jaymin at maths.tcd.ie       cbarry at maths.tcd.ie    lgrant at maths.tcd.ie

  =====                      44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.

   /|\                for the Shire of Lough Devnaree (Lough Damh na Ri')

 

 

From: sm at teleport.com (Scott A. MacHaffie)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Irish Social History

Date: 24 Oct 1994 06:16:15 -0700

Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016

 

One book of Irish history, at a popular level, is "The Story of

the Irish Race," by Seumas MacManus, The Devin-Adair Co.,

Old Greenwich, Connecticut, 1986.  ISBN: 0-517-064081. This book

has a good bibliography.

 

A very good book for early history (6th-11th century) is

"Social History of Ancient Ireland," by PW Joyce.  This book is

a serious historical book with lots of references.

 

Scott MacHaffie

--

sm at teleport.com  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks

Portland, Oregon, where summer is the nicest half-hour all year

 

 

From: jcarlock at magnus.acs.ohio-state.EDU (James R Carlock)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Irish Social History

Date: 25 Oct 1994 12:32:17 -0400

Organization: the internet

 

Greetings from Toirrdelbach!

     Scott Mahaffie recommends P.W. Joyce's A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND

as a serious historical work?  I will agree that Joyce was serious about his

history and used copious references, but I would suggest against using his work

as one's documentation for an article.  His ideas about Irish dress are not

founded on actual articles, but rather on etymological evidence.  He even

believes the celtic Irish wore kilts!  The evidence he uses to support this is

a line drawing of a late-period shrine made on the continent, which features

some men in what at first glance appear to be topless skirts but really aren't.

     Joyce shows all the limitations and biases of a 19th century historian.

Use his book as a reference to the primary sources, but don't accept anything

he says without checking the primary sources first.

 

                              With no disrespect to Mr. Mahaffie or Dr. Joyce,

 

                                             Toirrdelbach

                                             mka Jim Carlock

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: cathal at netcom.com (James Pratt)

Subject: Re: Help out a Newbie?

Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 03:19:16 GMT

 

:      Good Milord:

:              WELCOME TO THESE CURRENT MIDDLE AGES!

:                     Being of Danish/Irish extraction you are

:      what we sons of Erin call a Fingall (light haired foreigner)

:      as opposed to the Dubhgall (dark haired foreigner/Norwegian).

:      But all that aside, the following works might be of some

:      help:

:              IRISH NAMES AND SURNAMES by Partic Woulfe

:              Genealogical Pbl. Co., Baltimore, 1969

:

:              A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND by P.W. Joyce

:              Longman, Greene & Co., London, 1913

:

:              IRELAND BEFORE THE VIKINGS by Gearoid Mac Nicoaill

:              Gill and MacMillan, Ltd.,1972

:              (Gill History of Ireland, vol. 1)

:

:              OLD IRISH AND HIGHLAND DRESS by H.F. McClintock

:              Dundalgan Press, Dundalk, 1943.

:

:              Most larger University libraries should have these works

:      or be able to access them by ILL.  Practical SCA info can be

:      obtained from THE KNOWN WORLD HANDBOOK.  This is available from

:      the Society Stock Clerk (see your Kingdom newsletter of the FAQ

:      on this news group for the mailing address.)

:              My best advice to any newcomer is: DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK

:      QUESTIONS!  No-one will bite your head off----maybe talk your

:      ear off---if you ask an honest question.  Have fun, learn and

:      be welcome.

:                     Salve,

:                     Master Cathal Mac Edan na faeled,

:                     Barony of the South Downs, Meridies.

 

:      OOOPS!

:             I should proof my own postings more carefully.  The

:      correct usage is:

:              Finghall/Fingal-light haired foreigners=Norwegians

:              Dubhgall/Dughal-dark haired foreigners=Danes

:      MEA CULPA!!

:              CATHAL.

 

 

From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Help on garb

Date: 26 Jun 1995 01:49:22 GMT

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

 

Greetings!

        By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would have

been very influenced by English court styles.  The influence would likely

be more pronounced in areas which had been taken by the Normans a century

or so earlier.  In any case,  we're talking about tunics--looser sleeves

earlier in the century, tighter towards the end, for a guy anywhere between

knee and ankle length (depending on the specific period). If reflecting

upper class trends, you'd likely also add a surcote/gardecorps, especially

towards the end of period.

        Which book do you have?  There's no one single perfect source

for the period, but the Cunninghams' _English Medieval Costume_ is pretty

good.

 

Cheers!

Nicolaa/Susan

sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

 

 

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re: Help on garb

Date: 23 Jun 1995 13:33:26 -0500

Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

 

<Brent Hughes <bhughes at ashley.business.uwo.ca>>

>I've just recently joined the SCA, and am currently researching a persona.  

>The problem I've run into right now is appropriate garb.  I'm looking at a

>late 13th century Irish Bard.  I have a book on English Medieval costume, but

>I'm unsure as to whether English fashion would have applied to Ireland,

>especially Gaelic-Irish.  If anyone has any suggestions, please e-mail me.

 

The answer is no it would not, and MOST especially to the Gaelic-Irish.

You might try for a more Norman dress when you are visiting the Big City,

but even the Norman lords tended to wear clothing more along the lines

of the attire of the locals (although by the late 13th C, that transition

might no yet be complete).

 

Try looking for a book called something like "Old Irish and Highland Dress"

by a man named McClintock.  I'll see if I can dig something up that's

more specific.

 

I'll warn you though, Irish garb can be pretty ugly (so speaks the scholar

who dresses like the French he lives among :) ).

 

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn

  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep

-- St. Dunstan                    Northkeepshire, Ansteorra

                              (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

 

 

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re: Help on garb

Date: 26 Jun 1995 15:07:35 -0500

Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

 

<Nicolaa<Susan Carroll-Clark <sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca>>>

>By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would

>have been very influenced by English court styles....

 

I'm afraid that I really must disagree, at least with the statement

that there would be influence from the English court. There is certainly

some influence from the continent, but it is really quite minimal,

or so it appears to me.

 

In fact, the Leine (at least according to tomb sculptures) remains

fairly standard well into the 1500s.  There is a tomb of a Norman

Irish noble, in fact, dated c1230 that has him shown clearly in an

ankle length pleated Leine, although the sleeves are, in fact,

tightly cuffed around his wrists.  By 1300, of course, the leine,

still evidences by all the material has shortened to just above the

half-boots, and is deeply "V" collared, with what might be an

undershirt.  Neither outfit is worn belted, BTW.  Over the next 150 year,

the outfit remains essentially the same, although there is one rendering

that shows one of those triangular belt pouches (c1450) worn over the

shoulder as a modern purse.

 

BTW, rather than the McClintock, these examples come from a

marvelous 2 colume set:

 

Hunt, John.  Irish Medieval Figure Sculpture, 1200-1600, a study of

     Irish tombs with notes on costume and armor.  Dublin: Irish

     University Press, 1972.

 

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn

  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep

-- St. Dunstan                    Northkeepshire, Ansteorra

                              (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

 

 

From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Help on garb

Date: 27 Jun 1995 19:20:53 GMT

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

 

Greetings!

        A caveat:  I have not particularly studied Irish garb, and my original

statements did not apply to majority of Irish society--just the

highest levels.  I was also talking strictly 13th century. It seems to

me that the idea of "national styles" really gets going in the 14th century.

Before that, as I posted earlier, people are essentially wearing "straight

cut" garments--variations on tunics/robes, with the main differences being

the tightness in both body and sleeves, the neckhole treatment, and the

length, as well as decoration and ornament (this is where you see your

greatest regional variation).  For example, around 1250 England, France

and Germany (for women) favour a robe belted at the waist with tight

lower sleeves.  The robe seems to have a lot of fabric in it, and the

fabric blouses over the belt.  The sleeveless surcote is just coming

into fashion.  The main exception to this is Spain--13th century Spain

is its own little world costume-wise--they seem to have liked side-laced

surcotes which fit tightly.  Styles in England and France at this time

are so similar that it would be difficult to detect whether influence

was from the Continent or from England on Irish dress. (It could well be

either).

        The main thing is that I doubt that in the 13th century the

cut of Irish clothing was vastly different than that of English clothing.

Now, the way the Irish combined pieces, and the jewellery/belts/decoration

might have been quite a bit different.  But from the description given

of the _laine_, it sounds like a variation on the tunic theme.

        National styles, BTW, interest me a great deal.  By late in

our period, they had become identifiable--i.e., I can usually tell French,

English, Spanish, Dutch, German, and Italian 16th century garb apart;

but in my period (13th century), except for Spain and a few regional

differences in decoration, there do not yet seem to be any developed

national styles.  Comments anyone?  I'd love to hear from anyone who's

studyied the development of national styles.

 

Cheers!

Nicolaa/Susan

Canton of Eoforwic

sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

 

 

From: lyon at infi.net at infi.net

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Irish Garb

Date: 5 Nov 1995 20:24:50 GMT

Organization: InfiNet

 

You should try to get a copy of "Dress in Ireland" by Mairead Dunlevy.  

It gives good descriptions but the pictures start at about 1500.  Good

luck!  If you find pictures or other info for earlier, please post here.  

I'd be very interested!

 

Andrea

andreah at cpsnet.com

 

 

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Irish name query (was Period Scottish names)

Date: 11 Nov 1995 23:09:57 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Lila Richards (lila at lynx.CO.NZ) wrote:

<discussion of feminine Gaelic patronyms>

 

: OK.  Now I'm *completely* confused!  For lo these many years, I have been

: known as Caitlin ni Cumhaill.  I originally used 'mac Cumhaill', because I

: wished to imply descent from Fionn (Finn?) mac Cumhaill, but at some stage I

: decided this was incorrect.  So ... am I right in assuming from the above

: explanation that 'ni Cumhaill' refers to me as a descendant of Cumhaill?

 

Yes, that's exactly right. "ni/ Cumhaill" means "female descendent of

Cumhall". As best I understand what you are trying to imply with the

name, you are doing it correctly.

 

: And if so, how would I say I'm a descendant of 'mac Cumhaill'?

 

There's no reason to do it any differently. If you wanted to say

specifically that you are the daughter of a man surnamed "mac Cumhaill",

you could instead use "inghean mhic Cumhaill", but if you just want

"nebulously distant descendent" then either "inghean ui" or the short

form "ni" says what you want to say.

 

:  Caitlin is

: 7th C Irish, but failing that, anything early will do.

 

Well, I hate to disabuse you of the notion, but it would be completely

impossible for "Caitlin" to be a 7th century Irish name. The cult of St.

Katherine originated in Syria and was not brought to Western Europe until

the crusades. The name Katherine, in any of its variants, would not have

been known in 7th century Ireland.

 

: Also, I'd like to add 'of (or from) the Windswept Moor' (it's been blowing a

: near-gale outside all day today!) or something close, but I haven't a clue

: where to start.

 

Ohpleasegodno. Do you want a name that could reasonably have been used by

a period Irishwoman or do you want a name that couldn't possibly exist

outside of a bad fantasy novel? My research has found locative nicknames

to be extremely rare in Irish. The ones that I _have_ found are generally

derived from the proper names of places, rather than fanciful descriptions.

 

:  One kind gentle suggested 'Sliabh' for 'moor', but he said

: it also means 'mountain', so I'm not sure.

 

Yup, "sliabh" can mean either "moor" or "mountain". Probably it would be

better translated as "high elevation". The mountains in Ireland aren't

particularly mountainous by most standards. There are a number of place

names that incorporate the word "sliabh" -- Hogan's "Onomasticon

Goedelicum" has eight pages of listings of "Sliabh <some modifying

phrase>", unfortunately my Irish isn't fluent enough to skim through and

get a sense of what sort of modifiers are used except that the majority

seem to be personal names (i.e., "so-and-so's sliabh").

 

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

 

 

From: Christopher Allen Owens <cowens at netset.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA suggestions for trip to UK?

Date: 25 May 1996 06:20:35 GMT

Organization: NetSet Internet Services -- Columbus, Ohio

 

talis87346 at aol.com (Talis87346) wrote:

>

> My lord and I are traveling to England, Scotland, and Dublin in the fall,

> and we were wondering if anyone who has visited there has suggestions

> about places of especial interest to Scadians.

 

If you are planning on spending any time in Ireland and don't mind "roughing-it"

try to go to Killkenny, you can stay at the local youth hostel which is a converted 15th Century fortified manor. Complete with grown-over walls and a guard-house/bicycle shed.

 

 

From: JWSCHM00 at ukcc.uky.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re: Suggestions for trip to the UK

Date: Sat, 25 May 96 12:55:22 EDT

Organization: The University of Kentucky

 

Greetings,

I have lost the original post, but I believe the gentles in question

were visiting Dublin.

If so, a decent place to visit is Dublinia "a bridge to the medieval past".

This is located on St. Michael's Hill, next to Christ Church Cathedral.

There's a mosaic behind the ex-church (St. Michael's) where a Vikin

house was excavated.  There are inlays in the sidewalk around Christ

Church that look like they represent archeological finds, but we weren't

able to find out exactly what they were.

If visiting York, I also recommend Jorvik.  Also, if you go down in the

foundations of the York Minster, you can see neat things like the

original Norman foundations and a Roman road they excavated when re-doing

the foundations.

Jean Schmeisser -- Kriemhilde von Habichtslager

Dragonsmark -- Midrealm

 

 

From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Ireland

Date: 26 May 1996 12:29:41 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

There are many good books on the period that can be found just browsing at

the library --- History of the Irish Race , A History of Ireland , Ireland

in Tudor Times , and anything by Geraldus Cabriensis. Also look into

books on Irish folk tales and Mythology to get an idea of the mindset.

(Histories by English authors sometimes are a bit one sided , ....I wonder

why?( Hee Hee Hee!!!).  You will need to do a bit of reading in order to

get more specific in your request for info , your at square one and asking

"what is the universe".     Sir fitz

 

 

From: lynch_c at csvax1.ucc.ie (Conor James Lynch)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Ireland

Date: 31 May 1996 12:16:20 GMT

Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College, Cork, Ireland.

 

In article <4oa0tl$aug at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu) writes:

>There are many good books on the period that can be found just browsing at

>the library --- History of the Irish Race , A History of Ireland , Ireland

>in Tudor Times , and anything by Geraldus Cabriensis.

     Sir fitz

 

The best books I have seen which details irish culture etc is Eugene O'Curry's

Manners and customs of the ancient irish a 3 volume set but an invaluable

source of information.

Cathal MacBrian

 

 

From: ladyallyn at aol.com (Lady Allyn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Celtic Oaths

Date: 12 Jun 1996 04:59:40 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

Honorable soul,

 

Try "The Social History of Ancient Ireland" by Joyce -- two volumes, VERY

well documented, long exerpts of Brehon law (ie; oaths) and HUGE

bibliography.

 

Peace and Strength,

Allyn

 

 

From: "James W. Reilly" <enda at algonet.se>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hi!  I'm new to the SCA!

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:19:14 +0100

 

Hi there Siusaidh and welcome to the SCA,

 

In society I am known as Enda Mac an Bh‡ird(mundanely as Jim Reilly) and

I am an Irishman of the 13th C. In regards to your questions I would

like to point out that in all actuality the Scots were merely a

decendency of the Irish colony in Ariada(Scotland) well before what the

SCA calls period. Also communications between Ireland and Dalriada were

kept up through-out the early middle ages and that the Ulster-Irish and

the Scots have always been a close-knit lot even well before Cromwell.

 

A very good source for early Irish, and therefore Scot history, I would

recommend "History of the Irish Race" by Seumas MacManus. Except for his

sheer hatred of the English in the later chapters, it is an excellent

resource for early Gaelic/Celtic culture which is also, and most

importantly, very well documented. It was originally written in 1921,

and the man made absolutely sure that anyone could check his resources

(It is well worth the investment purely for the lists of source material

at the end of each chapter).

 

In regards to a name source, the easiest to recommend would be "Book of

Irish Names" by Ronan Coghlan, Ida Grehan, and P.W. Joyce. This is very

good for persona names being as they have tried to date the earliest

appearances of name along with what they mean. Best of all, this book is

easily available from the SCA Marketplace, P.O.Box 360789, Milpitas,

California, 95036-0789, tel.(408) 956-5444,(800) 789-7486, fax.(408)

263-0641. It sells for $10.00 + the usual whatever shipping.

 

If you have any further questions, need further help, or just want to

discuss Gaelic/celtic culture, the SCA, or whatever else; feel free to

contact me via the Rialto or email me.

 

Your in service,

Enda

 

 

From: peterbi at microsoft.com (Peter N. Biddle)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Tower Of London and Bunratty Castle (Ireland)

Date: 12 Dec 1996 19:33:59 GMT

Organization: Microsoft Corporation

 

I visited the Tower of London (again) and Bunratty Castle (Ireland) a

couple of weeks ago and I have some notes to share:

 

Tower - Almost all of the armor is GONE. URK! It has been moved to the

royal armories, one at Leeds(just outside England) and one at Portsmouth.

What remains is Henry VIII's collection of tourney armor, plus some of the

more quaint pieces form his personal armory (combined weapons like

musket/shields, musket/maces, etc.), and some random pieces of other

late-period tourney stuff. So you can see his famous cod-piece and the

skirt armor, but not much more. (I actually got to hear the

winched-onto-the-horse story again, fortunately not by a guide but by an

observer.) I didn't get to Leeds (no time), which was a major drag.

 

The White tower is essentially closed - this is in the long run goodness

as they are renovating it so that it can be displayed as it was used

originally, as opposed to being an armor warehouse.

 

Once again the "palace" with the 13th cent. re-enactors was the best, and

as it was off-season, we basically had the place to ourselves. I had a

long talk with one of the lords present, playing a 13th cent. knight (the

king was there as well), and got a good look at his shoes and clothes, all

of which were hand-made. He said the shoes he had (above the ankle

turn-shoes, using button-type fasteners set to the outside, with no

exposed seams) were based on a 13th century London dig-find, and that they

were the most comfortable shoes he wore. He also showed me a period

woodblock of knights playing a board game sans belts - he was of the

opinion that when you got home you took off the belt and the assorted

accouterment to relax, letting your tunics fall more like a dress. He wore

a non-hooded circle cloak (8 yards of cloth), a separate hood, a shorter

outer-tunic with short sleeves, a long inner tunic, knee-high hose/socks

connected to a belt, and "diaper-like" under wear (didn't see that...).

Not as much jewelry as the king - a couple of rings. The belt he wore (and

the king) was quite narrow - not like most of the belts you see around an

SCA event.

 

Bunratty was very cool - it is in Ireland between Shannon airport and

Limerick and it has been renovated to be entirely 16th cent. (except for a

few pieces of furniture etc.) and older. There are lots of REAL medieval

antiques and artifacts around the place, and it definitely give you a

serious medieval feel. The great hall was quite large and had a fire

circle set in the floor of the middle of the room, with a vent in the

ceiling - no chimney. They had a bunch of 17th cent courboulli butts (big

jugs) in a room but you couldn't get close to them, which caused me no end

of grief. The downside to this place was that in the castle there is NO

one around to answer questions. They even had several period swords, some

armor, and a cross-bow I would have also killed to get my hands on, but

alas they too were off limits. (No surprise really, butt to be so close,

with no one around...) The enormous tables, however, were free to be

examined which was very cool - enormous things (maybe 14 feet long by 3

feet wide), some made out of single solid boards 3-4 inches thick, all

held together with pegs. The castle also has a folk-park, a turn of the

century Irish village, which was also way cool. The scary part is how

medieval the place feels - it is only 100 years old and some of the

farmsteads could easily be mistaken for 1000 AD. Very little metal,

thatched roofs, sleep in the same room as your animals, etc. The smell of

burning turf was everywhere (every house had a burning peat fire - a very

nice touch). You can get in and get your hands on a lot of cool stuff at

Bunratty; it is a very cool castle and town with a very rich history as a

working military and social structure (hard to believe it has been sacked

8 times - you wouldn't believe it if you saw it's defenses). I just WISH

they had some interpreters around. I am going to see if I can't find a

curator and hit him or her up for info.

 

Some notes from their un-bibliographies literature: Women weren't allowed

in the great hall. The Norman's were great big bastards much of the time.

The Irish rarely got their shit together enough to quit squabbling with

each-other and throw the bastards out, although they did succeed on

occasion. The officers and soldiers (both commoners) shared quarters (a

single huge living room) but were separated by a line cut across the

floor. No one was allowed to sit in the presence of Earl Thromond except

during meal times.

 

In the same general vicinity of Bunratty are about a half-dozen or more

medieval re-enactment castles and villages, but only Bunratty is open in

the off season.

 

Colm

 

 

From: mmaxwell at whsun1.whoi.edu (Michael Maxwell)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 13th Century Irish Help, Please

Date: 20 Feb 1997 17:24:28 GMT

Organization: Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution

 

Cooley (freyac at mindspring.com) wrote:

 

:       I am trying to establish my personae, but I am having difficulties.

: Thus I turn to you in the hope that you will lend me your aid and

: wisdom.  I need source material on the daily lives of the Irish in

: this period.  What they ate, how they dressed, etc.  I am particulary

: interested in the arms, armour, clothes, and jewelry of the Irish;

: especially the Gallowglass mercenaries.

 

For a contemporary view of late 12th century Ireland, read Gerald of Wales

"History and Topography of Ireland", available from Penguin Books.  I'll

take a stab at the Latin (I don't have my book with me): Giraldus Cambrensis

- Topographia Hiberniae.  Gerald addresses alot of the stuff you're

interested in.

 

Osprey Books puts out a "Men-at-Arms" series. They have a book called "The

Irish Wars."  It gives good detail on weapons, armor, clothes, but focuses

on the 1500's.

 

There is also the "Oxford History of Ireland" edited by Foster, I believe.

It might also have some blurbs about daily life and material culture.

 

Regards,

Mike Maxwell

mmaxwell at whsun1.wh.whoi.edu

 

 

From: Mary Hysong <ladymari at gila.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 13th Century Irish Help, Please

Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:25:25 -0800

Organization: Innovative System Design, Ltd

 

Cooley (freyac at mindspring.com) wrote:

:       I am trying to establish my personae, but I am having difficulties.

: Thus I turn to you in the hope that you will lend me your aid and

: wisdom.  I need source material on the daily lives of the Irish in

: this period.  What they ate, how they dressed, etc.  I am particulary

: interested in the arms, armour, clothes, and jewelry of the Irish;

: especially the Gallowglass mercenaries.

 

The book Illustrated Archeology of Ireland may also be helpful, as well

as Mairhead Dunlevy's book Dress in Ireland.  I have more stuff on the

shelf and some sites on the net if you will send me your e-mail address

I will help if I can. Slan agat (good bye)

 

Mairi Broder, Atenveldt

 

 

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:46:26 -0500

From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com>

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Subject: [Fwd: Celtic (Irish/Scot/Welsh/Manx) First Names]

 

Here is a web page of interest......It has a gaelic word every day

and goes thru the changes of the irish language from 400 C.E. to

present.

 

http://www.lincolnu.edu/~focal/archive.htm

 

meadhbh

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:40:56 -0600

From: Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Greetings And HELP!

 

>     I am needing Information on Irish formal dress (Female) between 1000

> and 1200 A.D. I am wanting to make a complete outfit for one of the

> ladies in my Household and as an ART-SCI entry. Unfortunatly I am unable

> to find ANY information on this period. If you have any information at

> all, It will be greatly appreciated.

>

>        Gregor "The Mug" Jotun

 

Gregor, a chara! (Greetings!)

 

Dressing your ladies appropriately is a lovely gesture on your part.

Are you also of Irish persona? For an A&S entry you will be busy in the

library for a bit.  The good news is that there aren't thousands of

books to read, the bad news is that there isn't nearly enough

information available.

 

This time period is varied in it's influences so be prepared to do a bit

of digging, both for Irish dress styles and refining the specifics of

your household's ladies.

 

By the tenth century Ireland was rife with Vikings.  They were busily

building towns, seaports, government centers, and trade routes.  Dublin,

a Norse/Scandinavian stronghold, was established in the 9th century.

 

Then the Normans "visited" in 1169, and forgot to go home...:)  So,

though you end your requested time period in the 12th century, the

nobility were being influenced in fashion and style by those "sons O'

William the...Conqueror".

 

After deciding what influences your household members have, then you can

begin your search.  If "strictly Irish" is what you hear, the following

is a bibliography to get you started.  If you cannot find these in your

local library, inter-library loan is your friend!

 

"Dress in Ireland" Mairead Dunlevy, Holms and Meier Publishers, 1989

"Handbook on the Traditional Old Irish Dress", H F McClintock, Dundalgen

Press, 1950

"Costume and Fashion - the evolution of European dress through the

earlier ages", Herbert Norris, J M Dent and Sons, 1924

 

Depending on how excited you are about "whole outfits" you might be

interested in shoes.....look up:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOES

 

If you get to where you have more specific questions let me know.  

Sonas ort! (Happiness on you!)

T.H.Lady Lughbec ni Eoin

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 13:00:14 -0500

To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

From: <cward at awd.com> "C Ward, Software Support, x3115"

Subject: re: ANST - North African/Irish Combo Platter

 

From: "-Jax-" <jackson2 at apple.com>, on 10/1/97 7:07 AM:

I have a friend, new to the SCA,  who is developing her persona. The

concept is a combined North African and Irish heritage, around the 10th

century. Any ideas? What contact was there between these two cultures in

this period? What sort of people from North Africa would have reason to

go to Ireland at this time, or v v?

 

-Erik Wulfriksson-

  House of Brick

 

You are in luck!

 

The Moorish kingdoms were sending ambassadors to Ireland at this period,

specifically to the Irish Viking Colonies.  One Arab chronicler, Al-Ghazal,

wrote a commentary of his embassy and his dealings with the queen of the

Vikings, who was a spae-wife and used to sit on the high altar at the

church at Clonmacnoise and prophecy.

 

There is a translation of Al-Ghazal, with commontary and background

materials, available as "The Poet and the Spae-Wife".  I am at work right

now, and do not have the reference in front of me, but if your friend is

interested in further details, they can write to me at gunnora at bga.com and

I will direct them further.

 

::GUNNORA::

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:25:51 -0700

From: Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Irish Anything and Everything...

 

A really good book that I have been reading about Irish basic Medieval

history is called -

"Medieval Ireland, The Enduring Tradition"; by Michael Richter

It is an easy read, interresting, accurate (as far as I have gotten and

know of:) and has a nifty bibliography, maps, Irish society schematic,

Irish words list, and a good index.

 

Sonas ort! (Happiness on you!)

Mistress Lughbec

 

 

From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: medival migration

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:02:18 -0700

Organization: Santa Clara University

 

observer at rogers.wave.ca wrote:

>  Does anybody know how common it was for irish nobles to migrate to

>normandy in the periods of 1000 to 1300? This seems to be the case for my

>mother's side of the family, the THIBAULTs. Why would they do it? What

>happened? Could you refer me to a thorough web site? What i've found so far is

>awfully vague and slanted.

 

English nobles of Norman descent, led by Richard Strongbow, Earl of

Pembroke, conquered a considerable part of Ireland in the 12th century, so

by the end of the 12th century "Irish" nobles, in the sense of nobles

holding land in Ireland, might easily be Normans. They might also be the

descendants of Irish/Norman marriages. Strongbow himself married the

daughter of Dermot, King of Leinster; their daughter, Isabel of Pembroke,

married William Marshall. Isabel brought William large holdings in both

Ireland and Normandy.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:01:46 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: SC - Ireland-OT-OOP

 

In a message dated 6/13/98 6:07:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ddfr at best.com

writes:

 

<< And which country and time period was this? According to my research,

>in early Ireland, there were not baker's guilds, which would be a

>function of a large city.  Until the Vikings came, there were not

>cities, just clan holdings.  I don't think that this was as universal

>as it seems at first. >>

 

Technically, the culture of Ireland was not feudal in the way that the

mainland or even England was feudal. Comparisons with it's culture and

mainland European culture is for the most part an exercise in futility. There

is a very good program about Ireland on the History Channel now called "A

Short History of Ireland" which gives a very good basic understanding about

Ireland and it's people. It was an eye opener for me.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:14:12 -0500 (CDT)

From: "J. Patrick Hughes" <jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

To: sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Irish coins

 

There is a lengthy treatment of early Irish currency in Fergus Kelly's _A

Guide to Early Irish Law_.  He states "The currency system revealed by the

law texts and other documents is extremely complex.  The value of an

article or the amount of fine may be given in terms of cumals, sets,

cattle or ounces of silver.  Sometimes a combination of two or three

currencies is used. For instance, Bretha Dein Checht rules that a person

who inflicts a grain sized wound in the hollow of a king's temple must pay

an ounce of silver, a milch cow and 5 sets."

 

Cumal literally meant female slave but was used as a measure of value

centuries after the practice of slavery was no longer around.  A set seems

much harder to define.

 

Most of the currency described is not it terms of coins, though it would

have been easy enough to have adopted silver coinage if it was introduced

by invaders.

 

Charles O'Connor

jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu

 

 

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 07:35:17 MST

From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG

 

Dates in Irish Myth and Legend

http://indigo.ie/~legends/dates.html

 

The Ulster Cycle: Heroic Myths and Legends from Ireland

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/6084/

 

 

Subject: BG - book recomendation ... celtic myth and legend

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 09:20:33 MST

From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG

 

The Tain: From The Irish Epic Tain Bo Cualnge

Translated by Thomas Kinsella

Oxford University Press

ISBN 0-19-281090-1

 

a previous thread on real and perceived sumptuary law got me interested in

the irish sumptuary laws as laid out in the brehon law codes ... requested

information from the Clannada mailing list and was referred to their site (

http://www.clannada.org/ref1.html ) for an article on clothing that included

some information and a specific pointer (from teh list) to this work, ordered

online from Amazon.Com, arrived three days later (... gotta love em!).

 

just finished a cursory scan and suggest that any with celtic segments in

their libraries add it ... good translation, excellent notes, all in all a

good reference to this important work

 

'wolf

 

 

Subject: ANST - keltoi client system .. was: designated parasites

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:16:18 MST

From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

On 8 Feb 99, at 16:32, Decker, Terry D. wrote:

> It is interesting to see how contemporary outsiders viewed the Celtic

> social structure.  It helps make sense of some of the more arcane academic

> writings.

 

If such things are to your taste, may I recommend a new read I'm starting to

wade through (deep going so far)

 

_Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland_, Nerys

Paterson, University Notre Dame Press, ISBN: 0-268-00800

 

Anyone need a illdana with potential, but of dubious moral character (musical

tastes, fashion sense, ...) as a client ???  ... "will philosophize for food

& fuel"

 

'wolf

 

 

Subject: Viking Age Decorated Wood

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 21:13:36 MST

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: John_Cope at mail.enr.state.nc.us, stefan at texas.net

 

I got this new book in today:

 

, A Study of It's Ornament and Style

by James T. Lang, National Museum of Ireland. Medieval Dublin

Excavations1962-81 Royal Irish Academy. Full of things like fancy

sword beaters, shuttles, winders, scoops, spindle, boxes,carding

comb handle, a really neat wolf toggle, knife handles, an awl with a

dragon head, stylus, etc. Some furniture bits, boxes, carvings.

The awl has the blade bent nearly 90 degrees. I'm not gonna

speculate on that one.

 

Ordered from bookshop.co.uk 0901714690   17.66 pounds. on Internet.

Got it since ordered on the 5th.

http://www.bookshop.co.uk/hme/hmepge.asp

 

The decorated sword beaters and some of the other items are rather

neat. 102 pages, a bit bigger than the average big dover.

 

Royal Irish Academy, 19 Dawson St., Dublin 2

HB 0 901714 68 2

PB 0 901714 69 0

 

Magnus

 

I don't sell 'em. Have to order your own.

 

 

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:42:10 -0500

From: Steve Hughes <shughes at vvm.com>

Subject: SC - Re: Celtic Dung fires

 

Ras wrote:

>Surprisingly dung of any type once thoroughly dried throws off very little if

>any objectionable odor when used as fuel. Dungs have been and are currently

>used as fuels by many cultures.

 

I think the key work here is DRIED dung. In regard to dung fuels

traditional used in Ireland, John M. Synge writes about cow dung fires

in his book  _The Aran Islands_ . He comments on having to escape

outdoors to the local Celtic Dun (fort) to read because of the stench.

Dung has been historically used on the Irish Islands as long as cows

were present. Miranda Green's _Celtic Animals_ notes that a cow produces

24 kilos of dung a day, should you want to know what a good fuel source

they are.

 

Synge also comments on the presence of tiny rooms next to the Aran fire

places to accommodate the chickens. A continuation of housing the

animals inside with people.  Miranda Green also mentions the  presence

of chicken bones in Celtic garbage heaps and that the chicken came from

India. My thought was it was a hell of a long way for a chicken to walk

to be gassed and kept warm by a cow dung fire. So should you be planning

a Celtic Feast, chicken can be served!

 

Pamela Hewitt, the Harper

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:50:04 -0700

From: Curtis & Mary <ladymari at cybertrails.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Craggaunowen

 

> The Craggaunowen Project is pretty cool.  It includes reconstructed Iron

> Age dwellings (including a crannoq and a ring-fort), a small museum of

> medieval "antiquities" housed in a 16th century tower-house, and the

> "Brendan Exhibition" including the curragh that Tim Severin sailed to North

> America.  It is in County Clare, south of the village of Quin; as I recall,

> not far from Bunratty.  They do living history during the High Season

> (which is now).

>

> You do have "The Intelligent Traveler's Guide to Historic Ireland," don't

> you?  (Philip A. Crowl, 1990; ISBN 0-8092-4062-9)

>  It is invaluable.

 

Thanks for the info. Actually this trip is mostly being planned by a

friend of mine who has been there several times {if it weren't for her,

I wouldn't be going for probably another 5 years !} Mostly we are going

to the National Museum in Dublin to study the Shinrone and Moy gowns

first hand {my friend is Kass McGann, that wrote the article in the

spring TI about the Shinrone gown}  We will also be going up to the

Ulster museum in Belfast to study the Dungiven costume there. In

addition we will be at the Shinrone festival where we will wear our

reproductions of the Shinrone gown and Kass will give a talk about it.

There's also an SCA event as part of the festival.

 

Mairi

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:09:22 MST

From: "Caley Woulfe" <cwoulfe at life.edu>

Subject: ANST - Fw: [TY] cool site!!

To: "Ansteorran List" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

I got this off the Meridies tavern Yard...

 

Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-Wolf of Limerick

"If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..."

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Patricia Hefner <patricia.hefner at worldnet.att.net>

To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu>

Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 5:19 PM

Subject: [TY] cool site!!

 

>There's a GREAT site that's a history of Ireland in maps. It has a map for

>each century, starting with B.C, then continuing with 100 A.D, and going up

>to the twentieth century. The site also has a list of big time ruling

>families of the century and some other prominent families, so it's

>interesting if you're a genealogy greak and happen to have Irish blood like

>yours truly. There are also time lines for each century. Geez, pretty soon

>they'll have to put twenty-first...that will be weird. Anyway, here's the

>URL for interested parties:

>

>http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/kilkenny/2/ire700.htm

>

>This will take you to the site for 700. There are buttons on the site that

>will take you to the century of your choice. Enjoy!

>

>Isabelle

 

 

Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:54:41 MST

From: "Caley Woulfe" <cwoulfe at life.edu>

Subject: ANST - Irish Stuff

To: "Tavern Yard" <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu>

CC: "Ansteorran List" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

For all you Irish types.  This is a  fairly good site; it's virtual tour of

historical/mythological sites in Ireland; with some mythology tossed in for

good measure.

 

http://www.paddynet.com/island/

 

Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-Wolf of Limerick

 

 

Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:43:14 MST

From: Sean Gulick <sean at utig.ig.utexas.edu>

Subject: Re: ANST - Ireland

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

ches at io.com wrote:

> What was the land mass of Ireland called in the year 1666?

>

> F. Havas

 

Although I am not an authority on the subject, I am fairly certain it was

called Ireland as today.  During the War of the Roses which was quite a bit

earlier it was was called Ireland and there was even a parlimentary office

referring to Ireland by name (although I must admit I do not remember the exact

office title).  I do not know exactly when it was first called such but

certaintly it was prior to 1666.  Hope that helps.

 

Gideon

 

 

Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:12:58 MST

From: Fopdejour1 at aol.com

Subject: Re: ANST - Ireland

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

In a message dated 01/06/2000 7:12:10 PM, ches at io.com writes:

<< What was the land mass of Ireland called in the year 1666?

F. Havas >>

 

    I am pretty sure it was called Ireland.  In the official title of

Elizabeth, She was titled: HRM Elizabeth by the Grace of God, Queen of

England, France and Ireland, Supreme governor of the Church of England in all

things ecclesiastical as well as temporal....or pretty close to that.  Since

it existed in 1508 as Ireland, I am pretty sure in 1666 under Charles II it

was the same.

    The English part of Ireland, or the part actually controlled and settled

by the English, was a very small area on the eastern coast was known as The

Pale.

 

Chas de B

 

 

Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:12:31 MST

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at health.state.ok.us>

Subject: RE: ANST - Ireland

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

IIRC, the Irish referred to the island as Eire.  In more modern times, Eire

has been used to also describe the nation-state formed by the Irish.  During

period, political groupings would have been described by Kingdoms, clans or

leaders in the Celtic manner.  The English referred to the island as

Ireland.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:17:51 MST

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at health.state.ok.us>

Subject: RE: ANST - Ireland

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

> Last crossword puzzle I did called it "Erin."  Don't know

> WHEN it was called that, though.

>

> /Ly Elizabeth H.

 

Erin is a poetically form of Eire.  Bear

 

 

Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:31:45 MST

From: Brent Hanner <behanner at castleliechtenstein.net>

Subject: BG - A Medieval Tid-bit : Of Ireland

To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org" <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org>

 

OF IRELAND

 

Yrlonde hight Hibernia, and is an island of the Ocean in Europe, and is

nigh to the land of Britain, and is more narrow and straight than

Britain, but it is more plenteous place. . . . In this land is much

plenty of corn fields, of wells and of rivers, of fair meads and woods,

of metal and of precious stones.  For there is gendered a six cornered

stone, that is to wit, Iris, that maketh a rainbow in the air, if it be

set in the sun. And there is jet found, and white pearls. And concerning

the wholesome air, Ireland is a good temperate country. There is little

or none passing heat or cold, there be wonderful lakes, ponds, and

wells.  For there is a lake, in which if a staff or a pole of tree be

pight, and tarrieth long time therein, the part that is in the earth

turneth into iron, and the part that is in the water turneth into stone,

and the part that is above the water, abideth still in its kind of

tree.  There is another lake in which if that thou throwest rods of

hazel, it turneth those rods into ash: and ayenward if ye cast ashen

rods therein, they turn into hazel.  Therein be places in which dead

carrions never rot: but abide there always uncorrupt Also in Ireland is

a little island, in which men die not, but when they be overcome with

age, they be borne out of that island to die without.  In Ireland is no

serpent, no frogs, nor venemous addercop; but all the land is so

contrary to venemous beasts that if the earth of that land be brought

into another land, and spronge on the ground, it slayeth serpents and

toads. Also venemous beasts flee Irish wool, skins, and fells. And if

serpents or toads be brought into Ireland by shipping, they die anon.

 

Solinus speaketh of Ireland, and saith the inhabitants thereof be

fierce, and lead an unhuman life.  The people there use to

harbour no guests, they be warriors, and drink men's blood that they

slay, and wash first their faces therewith: right and unright they take

for one. . . . Men of Ireland be singularly clothed and unseemly arrayed

and scarcely fed, they be cruel of heart, fierce of cheer, angry of

speech, and sharp.  Nathless they be free hearted, and fair of speech

and goodly to their own nation, and namely those men that dwell in

woods, marshes, and mountains.  These men be pleased with flesh, apples,

and fruit for meat, and with milk for drink: and give them more to plays

and to hunting, than to work and travail.

 

Bartholomew Anglicus

 

 

Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:34:42 -0700

From: Mary Hysong <ladymari at cybertrails.com>

To: Aten Arts <atenarts at egroups.com>,

        "sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: All things Irish

 

For all those interested there is a new list for Irish History, where we

are currently discussing costuming ;-)

 

go to the link to subscribe

Mairi, Atenveldt

 

http://www.onelist.com/community/IrishHistory

 

 

Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:10:12 -0400

From: Warren & Meredith Harmon <silveroak at juno.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: PERIOD cloak clasps

 

This may not help you, but the book "Metal Craftsmanship in Early

Ireland" by Michael Ryan, ISBN 0-946172-37-4, is wonderfully excellent

for Celtic brooches of the 8th-10th century.  Great shots, both b&w and

color.  I highly recommend it for anyone in that period, and it may be a

good place to start for info.  

 

-Caro

 

 

From: "Cathy Harding" <charding at nwlink.com>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:06:39 -0700

 

Definitely go to the Irish national museum and the portrait gallery. They

are both in Dublin.  William spent several days in both, pressing his nose

to the glass in the treasury room.  He's a goldsmith and there were lots of

lovely things....

 

Maeve.

 

 

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:14:45 +0200

From: Volker Bach <bachv at paganet.de>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland

 

Robin Carroll-Mann schrieb:

> After several years delay (buying a house put us off-schedule), my

> lord and I are finally going to Ireland.  We will be there from Sept.

> 10 - 21.  We are flying into Shannon and departing from Dublin.

> We have booked a "self-drive tour" with a rental car and vouchers

> for B&Bs.  Our vague plan is to drive a semi-circular route along the

> southern coast from Shannon to Dublin.  At this point, our only

> must-sees along the way are the Ring of Kerry, the Craggaunowen

> Project, Blarney Castle, the Waterford factory, and Kilkenny City.

 

I would definitely include Glendalough, an early

Irish monastery with surviving 9th century

buildings and a nice (though unfortunately not

overwhelmingly informative) visitor center.

Definitely allow a day or three for Dublin, too -

the National Museum is stunning (and free, or used

to be when I did a year at Trinity back in

'96/97), the Viking Centre is somewhere between

cute and wow (though pricey), and you should take

the time for the Trinity Library and a few

churches (none that old in the city, but quite a

few with foundations going that far back). Also,

by all means do some exploring along the south

bank of the Liffey. Everybody keeps talking about

'Georgian Dublin', but I found that particluar

part incredibly boring. 'Victorian Dublin' on the

other hand is architecturally quite intriguing,

and chock-full of bookshops, music stores and pubs

(pricey and not at all 'authentic', but fun to be

in).

New Grange is a matter of taste - impressive, but

sort of stone age (which it is, to be fair).

 

> Any recommendations for places to visit/stay/shop/eat?  Since my

> persona is 10th century Irish, things related to that era would be of

> particular interest.  Oh, and I don't do beer or ale.  At all. Is cider

> readily available in pubs?

 

I can only speak for the Dublin area, but I always

found something to drink in the usually wide

choice offered, and I don't drink any kind of

alcohol.

 

Giano

 

 

From: "Cathy Harding" <charding at nwlink.com>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:53:58 -0700

 

[the Dublin area]

 

There is a wonderful restaurant in the Temple Bar (above the fly fishing

place.  It is called the Old Mill.  We had a duck salad that was excellent

and a bunch of other yummy stuff (It's early, I haven't had my Dr. Pepper

yet.)

 

Maeve

 

 

From: "ruadh" <ruadh at home.com>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:54:03 -0400

 

upon a time I had a link to Ireland's cell phones, that I could "prepay" one

to use while there. Best to have as you B&B about, call ahead by 1 PM to

have that night's stay fixed and reserved. Lunch is FINISHED by 2 PM, carry

a poly cooler if you need snacks/drinks. get a 4 door hatch back to carry

all your goodies; even if just two people.  AAA [ state side] has the best

maps! I bring several to trade for the local survey books.  Kinsale - stay

at Acton's, nice pool and singers in the pub. [but you're a week too early

for the art festival there, 22-30 Sept]. Donegal - step dancing in the

pub[s], was Wed nights. And before you leave Shannon, try Bunratty castle

quote: The castle was built in the early 1400's by the McNamara family, but

fell shortly afterwards to the O'Briens, kings of Thomond, who controlled

the castle until the 17th century. Admiral Penn, father of William Penn,

resided here for a short time.

Today, the castle's Great Hall hold a very fine collection of 14th to 18th

century furniture, paintings, and wall hangings. The Great Hall also hosts

"medieval banquets" complete with maids playing the harp, court jesters,

food a la the middle ages, and mead (a honey wine favoured by the Irish in

the middle ages).

http://www.historic.irishcastles.com/bunratty.htm

a good "feast" can be had after visiting the village outside the castle. The

mead is worth a 'try'.

 

best Museum 1999  Waterford Treasures

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/mainpage.html

lots of general -local info

http://www.iol.ie/~discover/welcome3.htm

 

and for the food content:

Traditional Brown Bread [ I add raisins]

http://www.iol.ie/~discover/recipe.htm

 

Say hi to gramp's for me. Lord Morton of Morton parish, C.Cork.

Ru

 

 

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland

Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 18:44:32 -0600 (MDT)

From: Ann Sasahara <ariann at nmia.com>

To: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

CC: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <mark.s.harris at motorola.com>

 

Greetings

 

I'm very behind in my mail.  I hope this is helpful.

 

My family and I were in Dublin a couple on months ago and I had a pretty

good time in spite of rain and a bank holiday.  I omitted the

Guinness-related things and most of the children's activities.  You asked

about a variety of things:

 

Places to stay: We didn't stay at a B & B, but we did have a nice stay at

the Camden Court Hotel at Camden St and Adelaide Rd.  The restaurant

served a good regional specialty soup called "Dublin Coddle" (potatoes,

onions, sausage and bacon) which was perfect on damp rainy days.  (I was

surprised at the number of Indian restaurants, but the curry was also

welcome in the damp June weather.)

 

Pubs: The Camden Court pub is Piseogs ("Legends").  It's a weird,

circular, tourist pub.  The pubs near Trinity College were friendlier.

The best pub we went to was The Brazen Head on Bridge St near the Liffey.

It's Ireland's oldest pub, established in 1198 - the drinks are much

fresher.  The cider was excellent. The Guinness was exceptionally strong

and bitter.  I preferred Murphy's, which had the same rich flavour, but not

the bitter  after taste.  In the hotel brochure rack, there was a pub

hopping

tour: 6 pubs in one night.

 

The Brazen Head's restaurant was closed (bank holiday) so we went across

the street to O'Shea's Restaurant.  We had a filling lamb stew w/ fresh

bread, lamb cutlets and grilled salmon at reasonable prices.  The band

started playing Irish music at about 9pm

 

Cider: Strongbow, a crisp delightful slightly sweet cider was available

everywhere, even in London.

 

Shopping: since we didn't have a car, I only know the shopping places near

the college and the tour bus stop: O'Connell St, Ld Edward St-Dame St and

Nassau St.  O'Connell is the best place for tourist items like T-shirts,

souvenirs, discounted woolens and knits.  There was even one store near

the DublinTour/Guide Friday bus stop that had bohrains for L19 - L60

depending on size.  (L1.00 = $1.36 June 4th rate)  I didn't see anything

here that I didn't see in the other two shopping areas.  Ld Edward/Dame St

was slightly more expensive.

 

Ld Edward-Dame St is the stretch of road between Trinity College and

Christ Church.  It had a little bit of everything: bookstores, local

crafts, tourist knick-knacks and galleries.  This is where I spent money.

 

Nassau St. is located immediately south of Trinity College.  It has a

variety of pricey, non-student stores.  Waterford has a store there, as

well as Irish woolens and Celtic Music.  If you look in the hotel tourist

brochure racks, you will find a L1.00 off coupon for the Celtic Music

store.

 

Things to do:

 

Trinity College: the chapel had some nice stained glass windows.  The old

library has The Book of Kells.  The displays involved videotapes of

medieval calligraphy and bookbinding and natural pigments.  We viewed this

on the way to see the Book, so it wasn't a boring wait in line.  They had

two of the volumes of the Book of Kells as well as the Book of Armagh,

under glass on display.  Behind the books is a stairway leading up to the

Long Room.  At the beginning of the Room is a glass case on the right with

the oldest Irish harp.  The pamphlet said it was the harp of Brian Boru,

but I doubt it.  It is however a beautifully carved harp and it is the

harp depicted on all the Irish coinage.

 

The stairs from the Long Rm lead down into the gift shop.  The only

cookery books they had were:

 

The Ballymaloe Cookbook, a cookbook put out by a popular restaurant

 

and

 

Traditional Irish Recipes, by George Thomson, a nicely illuminated and

calligraphied book of contemporary and traditional Irish recipes that use

potatoes, tomatoes and other things.  It does have a recipe for Boxty

bread, which was a past cooks-list topic - there are Boxty panckes too.

 

There are many, many books on medieval topics, except cookery.

 

The real bargain is the Book of Kells on CD-ROM.  It's a full reproduction

of the Book with special close-ups of 14 pages.  It uses QuickTime to

"turn" the pages.  QuickTime is included on the CD-ROM.

 

Dublin Castle: it was tediously Restoration, but the garden in the back

was nicely contemporary and the Chester Beatty Library (jade books,

illuminated Q'urans, books of hours, etc) was the best thing about the

Castle.  In the castle shop right off of Dame St you can get a guide book

called _Medieval Dublin by Violet Martin.  The book is exceptionally

detailed and has a fold out map. The first stop listed in the book is

right outside the castle shop: Dame Gate.  The book covers an area of

Dublin that's easily walked (30 min in any direction); which is good,

because there isn't much available parking.

 

Dublinia/Christ Church: We purchased a combined ticket.  You start at the

Dublinia side and progress through the displays and activity rooms. It

was cold and rainy outside, so the kids really liked this. My favorite was

the 15 th c Dublin diorama w/ the talking history buttons.  The kids liked

the medieval fair room where we looked at period foods & spices and played

ring toss.  There is a stairway to the top of St Michael's Tower ~200',

which I let the kiddies do w/o me.  They said it had great views. I'll

take their word.

 

We entered Christ church through the Dublinia bookstore.  The first thing

I noticed was the colorful floor tiles - they are the originals.  The Lady

Chapel was the best part of the church, including the heart of St

Laurence, a relic that survived the dissolution of the monasteries. The

crypt is highly over-rated.  There is a Restoration Era display of church

plate in the crypt that's not quite worth the L2 admission.  The rest of

the crypt is free of charge. All the guide books are wrong about the

mummified cat and rat from the organ pipe.  The mummified cat/rat display

was moved out of the crypt into the nave, to a niche to the right of the

crypt doorway, about 10' above the floor.  They made it impossible to

see/find.  Also in the nave, is an effigy (by the gift counter) of

Strongbow (Richard de Clare, 2 nd Earl of Pembroke).  He was the Norman

conqueror of Dublin, friend of Henry II, founder of Christ Church and the

namesake of a yummy cider.

 

Natl Museum (TaraBrooch)/St Patrick's Cathedral (Swift's burial place, but

that's a different SCA-cooks thread)/Marsh's Library (Ireland's oldest

public library)/The Viking Adventure: we ran out of time.  Let me know how

they are.

 

Things to do outside of Dublin:

 

Malahide: We took a half-day trip to Malahide Castle about an hour north

of Dublin.  Founded in 1185, it's one of the oldest castles in Ireland and

in perfect condition.  The front exterior and upper front rooms and the

Great Hall are still period (1500s).  The paneling and furniture are

splendid.  Ignore the Chippendale chairs in the Great Hall.  The side and

back living areas are Restoration and Georgian.  The shop had the same

medieval and cookery books as Trinity College.  The drive along the coast

with the June wildflowers in bloom on the rocky cliffs was exceptional -

picnic perfect.

 

Glenalough/Powerscourt/Bailey's: they're in a line on a highway between

Arklow and Dublin and they can be done, more or less, in one day.

Glenalough has a 10 th c round tower that fits your period.  The buildings

and hermit cave at the upper lake are earlier and the buildings at the

lower lake are 12 th c.  St Kevin's kitchen (lower lake) is really an

oratory - the bell tower just looks like a chimney.  Powerscourt is a

collection of impressive gardens.  Be sure to see the tiny Japanese garden

hidden in the trees to the left of the lake.  ICON is where Bailey's Irish

Cream is made.  There is a tour, a tasting and a shop. They have an

audio-visual show of the Newgrange Neolithic site called "Eriu".

 

Newgrange: restored Neolithic burial mound.  A half-day trip from Dublin,

but we went to Malahide instead.  If you go, let me know how it was.

 

Ariann

 

 

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:42:33 -0700

From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period gifts in jars + question

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Martin G. Diehl wrote:

> While in Dublin, were you able to visit any of these or

> other Neolithic sites?

 

Yes, I did get to see a few things in Ireland, although I was really

only there for three days.  I took one whole day and went on a mini

package-tour that took us to Newgrange (which was f***ing AWESOME!), and

Tara.  IIRC, we could see Knowth from Newgrange, but didn't go there.

They also have nifty museums in Dublin (and, bless them, they're all

free--paid for by the national lottery), so I got to see some *way* cool

stuff at the National Museum, including some way-BC (by a few 1000

years) hazelnuts (how's that for obligatory food content).  And the new

exhibit for the Book of Kells, of course. ;o)

 

They also have an amazing East Indian restaurant in Dublin, called...oh,

heck, I can't find the flyer I saved, but it's in the main part of town,

south of the Liffey, and within easy walking distance of Trinity. It's

on Lower Baggot St.  Curry heaven, and different kinds of breads and

chutneys...ooooh, almost worth the plane trip back there, just for that.

 

   I did not, however, have a chance to have any fresh seafood--a

restaurant I'd planned on going to was undergoing renovations.

Newgrange, as far as I'm concerned, was way cooler than Stonehenge, if

at least in part because I was actually able to go inside, whereas with

Stonehenge, you're at a bit of a distance.  The historical Powers That

Be had just opened a new visitors' center when I was there, and it's got

some very interesting displays, and an interesting walk that you take to

get to the shuttle bus spot, which is along this path landscaped with

the different plants from the ogham alphabet.

Tara was kind of interesting, too.  We had a decent day for a view

(apparently, rumor has it that you can see all 26 counties from there on

a really clear day).  Lots of really long grass, and interesting lumps

and ditches--really gave me a good appreciation for historians and

archaeologists who can actually make sense of it.

 

--maire "can you tell I'm partial?" ni nuanain

 

 

Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:34:50 -0400

From: Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at cornell.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: BMR: O'Sullivan, Hospitality in Medieval

        Ireland (Waters)

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Here's an excerpt.  I can send the rest to anyone who's interested.  The

review is actually relatively short for BMR.

 

Sandra

 

> O'Sullivan, Catherine Marie, ŇHospitality in Medieval Ireland,

> 900-1500Ó.  Dublin, Four Courts Press, 2004.  Pp. 272. 45 GBP [$55

> USD]. ISBN 1851827455 (hb).

>

> This volume sets out to address hospitality from a number of angles.

> The author addresses the classes of travelers who were entitled to

> hospitality and discusses what each grade could expect in terms of

> food, lodging and treatment as well as discussing who was required to

> supply hospitality and the particular demands placed on certain groups

> such as religious institutions, professional guesthouse keepers and the

> learned classes.  She also addresses the demands hospitality placed on

> households and institutions of varying means. Additionally, she

> explores the reasons this rigid system of hospitality was in place as

> well as the advantages which the hospitable host could accrue through

> his actions.

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:46:43 +1100 (EST)

From: "Cian Gillebhrath" <mniemann at labyrinth.net.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

 

On Wed, October 14, 2009 09:10, Sandra Bobleter wrote:

<<< Can anyone tell me where I can find the (Irish) Book of Armagh in

English, in print or online?  I've Googled but not come up with anything

except a few excerpts. >>>

 

I believe that you might be best served trying to find the following

(which might be rare as I believe only 400 were originally printed).

 

Gwynn, John.   Liber Ardmachanus / The book of Armagh. Dublin: Pub. for

the Royal Irish Academy by Hodges Figgis & Co.; London: Williams &

Norgate, 1913. Folio (32.5 cm, 12.75"). [4], ccxc, [2], 503, [1] pp.; 6

plts.

 

Cian.

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:51:51 +1100 (EST)

From: "Cian Gillebhrath" <mniemann at labyrinth.net.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

 

I found the Gwynn book available in a proposed reprint:

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/14516//Location/Oxbow

 

I don't know how much of it is a facsimile and how much is translated, but

the forward/explanations seem to be in English.

 

Cian.

 

 

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:34:52 +1030

From: Sandra Bobleter <bobl0001 at flinders.edu.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

 

I certainly appreciate your finding this, Cian. Desperately would like

to get one, but at 150 [pounds Sterling] they're wishing! Wonder what they charge for postage?

 

Bianca.

 

 

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:34:13 +1030

From: Sandra Bobleter <bobl0001 at flinders.edu.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

 

Greetings, Lord Stefan,

The entries in the various 'pedias cited by others in this list are

indeed correct; the Book of Armagh is kept on display with the Book of

Kells.  While not at all exciting with regards to illumination, I was

specifically interested in it because it is meant to contain some

references to the Tuatha de Danann or the Sidhe, I would assume in what

is known as the first part of the Book, referring to St Patrick's life.  

I have found a possible reference here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/ffcc240.htm#fn_219 - look at

the first footnote at the bottom, corresponding to the title of this

excerpt.

 

Bianca Valois.

 

Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< when was

the original written and why would someone be interested in it, or a

reprint of it? Is this a good example for period (Irish?) illumination

or calligraphy? Irish tales?

 

Stefan >>>

 

The footnote mentioned above has this to say:

283:1 Chief general references: Le Cycle Mythologique Irlandais (Paris, 1884) and L'EpopŽe celtique en Irlande (Paris, 1892)--both by H. D'Arbois de Jubainville. Chief sources: The Book of Armagh, a collection of ecclesiastical MSS. Probably written at Armagh, and finished in A.D. 807 by the learned scribe Ferdomnach of Armagh; the Leabhar na h-Uidre or 'Book of the Dun Cow', the most ancient of the great collections of MSS. containing the old Irish romances, compiled about A.D. 1100 in the monastery of Clonmacnoise; the Book of Leinster, a twelfth-century MS compiled by Finn Mac Gorman, Bishop of Kildare; the Yellow Book of Lecan (fifteenth century); and the Book of Lismore, an old Irish MS found in 1814 by workmen while making repairs in the castle of Lismore, and thought to be of the fifteenth century. The Book of Lismore contains the Agallamh na sen—rach or 'Colloquy of the Ancients' which has been edited by S. H. O'Grady in his Silva Gadelica (London, 1892), and by Whitley Stokes, Ir. Texte, iv. I. For additional texts and editions of texts see Notes by R. I. Best to his translation of Le Cycle Mythologique Irlandais (Dublin, 1903).

 

<the end>



Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org