Ireland-msg - 3/6/08
Irish culture, dress. Points of interest. Irish history.
NOTE: See also the files: cl-Celts-msg, cl-Ireland-msg, fd-Ireland-msg, SI-songbook1-art, Scotland-msg, potatoes-msg.
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"OF IRELAND
Yrlonde hight Hibernia, and is an island of the Ocean in Europe, and is
nigh to the land of Britain, and is more narrow and straight than
Britain, but it is more plenteous place. . . . In this land is much
plenty of corn fields, of wells and of rivers, of fair meads and woods,
of metal and of precious stones. For there is gendered a six cornered
stone, that is to wit, Iris, that maketh a rainbow in the air, if it be
set in the sun. And there is jet found, and white pearls. And concerning
the wholesome air, Ireland is a good temperate country. There is little
or none passing heat or cold, there be wonderful lakes, ponds, and
wells. For there is a lake, in which if a staff or a pole of tree be
pight, and tarrieth long time therein, the part that is in the earth
turneth into iron, and the part that is in the water turneth into stone,
and the part that is above the water, abideth still in its kind of
tree. There is another lake in which if that thou throwest rods of
hazel, it turneth those rods into ash: and ayenward if ye cast ashen
rods therein, they turn into hazel. Therein be places in which dead
carrions never rot: but abide there always uncorrupt Also in Ireland is
a little island, in which men die not, but when they be overcome with
age, they be borne out of that island to die without. In Ireland is no
serpent, no frogs, nor venemous addercop; but all the land is so
contrary to venemous beasts that if the earth of that land be brought
into another land, and spronge on the ground, it slayeth serpents and
toads. Also venemous beasts flee Irish wool, skins, and fells. And if
serpents or toads be brought into Ireland by shipping, they die anon.
Solinus speaketh of Ireland, and saith the inhabitants thereof be
fierce, and lead an unhuman life. The people there use to
harbour no guests, they be warriors, and drink men's blood that they
slay, and wash first their faces therewith: right and unright they take
for one. . . . Men of Ireland be singularly clothed and unseemly arrayed
and scarcely fed, they be cruel of heart, fierce of cheer, angry of
speech, and sharp. Nathless they be free hearted, and fair of speech
and goodly to their own nation, and namely those men that dwell in
woods, marshes, and mountains. These men be pleased with flesh, apples,
and fruit for meat, and with milk for drink: and give them more to plays
and to hunting, than to work and travail.
Bartholomew Anglicus"
[A quote from period. Submitted by Brent Hanner
<behanner at castleliechtenstein.net>]
-----
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jaymin at maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: Irish Persona Help Needed!
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 09:53:14 GMT
Keywords: surnames, garb
> What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names" (chiefly the
> practices for such names in 11th - 13th c. Eire)... Could someone
> recommend a book or two that talks about naming practices (especially
> *last* names; the Fidelma Maguire and Donnchadh O/ Corra/in book is no
> help in that regard)...
I have always found indispensible tools for creating Irish
personas are the various "Annals of Ireland". I have the Annals of
Innisfallen and the Annals of Connacht. Don't be mislead by the
names, they have very little to do with the area they are named after.
These are basically journals where the monks of the abbey would
write down a few paragraphs each year of what they though was important.
Innishfallen covers from about 430 to 1270 and Connacht covers 1200 to
1400 (or thereabouts).
These are *brilliant* source material. They are full of names
of all sorts of people with a massive name index in the back. Instant
irrefutable documentation. You can sit down a read through what happened
in your persona's life time from a contemporary point of view.
Needless to say they are woefully inaccurate about certain
things but then your persona would be equally ignorant. One entry catalogs
a 40' tall woman washing up on the shores of Scotland, another chronicles
the King of Alba gifting Brian Boru with a camel. Good stuff.
Arval writes:
>I suspect that the Irish in that period did not have "surnames" as such.
In the Annals people are usually "Blah, son of blah". Clan
affiliations you seem to be expected to know by context or by working out
the geneologies to the many "Blah, king of blah".
>For a woman, the standard patronymic form is
>"ni <father's name in the genitive form>".
Actually I've poured through the annals and never found anything
like this. There aren't too many women's names but every one I have
found so far has been "Blah daugheter of blah" in the Irish as
"blah ingen blah". What documents does "ni" or "nic" appear in?
Original poster:
> What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names"
Costuming is always a problem. There are very few books on this.
What period did you have in mind? There is a book on Anglo-Norman
sculpture... Other than that there are two theories:
1) Take English fashion of fifty to a hundred earlier that
your Irish persona.
2) Use English Fashion if you are from Leinster, Scotish
fashion if you are from Ulster, French fasion if you are from Munster,
and Spanish fashion if you are from Connacht.
In any event, don't forget there is a SCA Shire in Ireland.
We're always pleased to lend whatever hand we can to people with
Irish personas...
Yours in service,
Seamus Donn
% Seamus Donn Eva de Barri Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
%|% Jo Jaquinta Cathy Barry Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\ jaymin at maths.tcd.ie cbarry at maths.tcd.ie lgrant at maths.tcd.ie
===== 44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
/|\ for the Shire of Lough Devnaree (Lough Damh na Ri')
From: sm at teleport.com (Scott A. MacHaffie)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Irish Social History
Date: 24 Oct 1994 06:16:15 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
One book of Irish history, at a popular level, is "The Story of
the Irish Race," by Seumas MacManus, The Devin-Adair Co.,
Old Greenwich, Connecticut, 1986. ISBN: 0-517-064081. This book
has a good bibliography.
A very good book for early history (6th-11th century) is
"Social History of Ancient Ireland," by PW Joyce. This book is
a serious historical book with lots of references.
Scott MacHaffie
--
sm at teleport.com Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Portland, Oregon, where summer is the nicest half-hour all year
From: jcarlock at magnus.acs.ohio-state.EDU (James R Carlock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Irish Social History
Date: 25 Oct 1994 12:32:17 -0400
Organization: the internet
Greetings from Toirrdelbach!
Scott Mahaffie recommends P.W. Joyce's A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND
as a serious historical work? I will agree that Joyce was serious about his
history and used copious references, but I would suggest against using his work
as one's documentation for an article. His ideas about Irish dress are not
founded on actual articles, but rather on etymological evidence. He even
believes the celtic Irish wore kilts! The evidence he uses to support this is
a line drawing of a late-period shrine made on the continent, which features
some men in what at first glance appear to be topless skirts but really aren't.
Joyce shows all the limitations and biases of a 19th century historian.
Use his book as a reference to the primary sources, but don't accept anything
he says without checking the primary sources first.
With no disrespect to Mr. Mahaffie or Dr. Joyce,
Toirrdelbach
mka Jim Carlock
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cathal at netcom.com (James Pratt)
Subject: Re: Help out a Newbie?
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 03:19:16 GMT
: Good Milord:
: WELCOME TO THESE CURRENT MIDDLE AGES!
: Being of Danish/Irish extraction you are
: what we sons of Erin call a Fingall (light haired foreigner)
: as opposed to the Dubhgall (dark haired foreigner/Norwegian).
: But all that aside, the following works might be of some
: help:
: IRISH NAMES AND SURNAMES by Partic Woulfe
: Genealogical Pbl. Co., Baltimore, 1969
:
: A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND by P.W. Joyce
: Longman, Greene & Co., London, 1913
:
: IRELAND BEFORE THE VIKINGS by Gearoid Mac Nicoaill
: Gill and MacMillan, Ltd.,1972
: (Gill History of Ireland, vol. 1)
:
: OLD IRISH AND HIGHLAND DRESS by H.F. McClintock
: Dundalgan Press, Dundalk, 1943.
:
: Most larger University libraries should have these works
: or be able to access them by ILL. Practical SCA info can be
: obtained from THE KNOWN WORLD HANDBOOK. This is available from
: the Society Stock Clerk (see your Kingdom newsletter of the FAQ
: on this news group for the mailing address.)
: My best advice to any newcomer is: DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK
: QUESTIONS! No-one will bite your head off----maybe talk your
: ear off---if you ask an honest question. Have fun, learn and
: be welcome.
: Salve,
: Master Cathal Mac Edan na faeled,
: Barony of the South Downs, Meridies.
: OOOPS!
: I should proof my own postings more carefully. The
: correct usage is:
: Finghall/Fingal-light haired foreigners=Norwegians
: Dubhgall/Dughal-dark haired foreigners=Danes
: MEA CULPA!!
: CATHAL.
From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on garb
Date: 26 Jun 1995 01:49:22 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS
Greetings!
By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would have
been very influenced by English court styles. The influence would likely
be more pronounced in areas which had been taken by the Normans a century
or so earlier. In any case, we're talking about tunics--looser sleeves
earlier in the century, tighter towards the end, for a guy anywhere between
knee and ankle length (depending on the specific period). If reflecting
upper class trends, you'd likely also add a surcote/gardecorps, especially
towards the end of period.
Which book do you have? There's no one single perfect source
for the period, but the Cunninghams' _English Medieval Costume_ is pretty
good.
Cheers!
Nicolaa/Susan
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Help on garb
Date: 23 Jun 1995 13:33:26 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
<Brent Hughes <bhughes at ashley.business.uwo.ca>>
>I've just recently joined the SCA, and am currently researching a persona.
>The problem I've run into right now is appropriate garb. I'm looking at a
>late 13th century Irish Bard. I have a book on English Medieval costume, but
>I'm unsure as to whether English fashion would have applied to Ireland,
>especially Gaelic-Irish. If anyone has any suggestions, please e-mail me.
The answer is no it would not, and MOST especially to the Gaelic-Irish.
You might try for a more Norman dress when you are visiting the Big City,
but even the Norman lords tended to wear clothing more along the lines
of the attire of the locals (although by the late 13th C, that transition
might no yet be complete).
Try looking for a book called something like "Old Irish and Highland Dress"
by a man named McClintock. I'll see if I can dig something up that's
more specific.
I'll warn you though, Irish garb can be pretty ugly (so speaks the scholar
who dresses like the French he lives among :) ).
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Help on garb
Date: 26 Jun 1995 15:07:35 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
<Nicolaa<Susan Carroll-Clark <sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca>>>
>By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would
>have been very influenced by English court styles....
I'm afraid that I really must disagree, at least with the statement
that there would be influence from the English court. There is certainly
some influence from the continent, but it is really quite minimal,
or so it appears to me.
In fact, the Leine (at least according to tomb sculptures) remains
fairly standard well into the 1500s. There is a tomb of a Norman
Irish noble, in fact, dated c1230 that has him shown clearly in an
ankle length pleated Leine, although the sleeves are, in fact,
tightly cuffed around his wrists. By 1300, of course, the leine,
still evidences by all the material has shortened to just above the
half-boots, and is deeply "V" collared, with what might be an
undershirt. Neither outfit is worn belted, BTW. Over the next 150 year,
the outfit remains essentially the same, although there is one rendering
that shows one of those triangular belt pouches (c1450) worn over the
shoulder as a modern purse.
BTW, rather than the McClintock, these examples come from a
marvelous 2 colume set:
Hunt, John. Irish Medieval Figure Sculpture, 1200-1600, a study of
Irish tombs with notes on costume and armor. Dublin: Irish
University Press, 1972.
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on garb
Date: 27 Jun 1995 19:20:53 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS
Greetings!
A caveat: I have not particularly studied Irish garb, and my original
statements did not apply to majority of Irish society--just the
highest levels. I was also talking strictly 13th century. It seems to
me that the idea of "national styles" really gets going in the 14th century.
Before that, as I posted earlier, people are essentially wearing "straight
cut" garments--variations on tunics/robes, with the main differences being
the tightness in both body and sleeves, the neckhole treatment, and the
length, as well as decoration and ornament (this is where you see your
greatest regional variation). For example, around 1250 England, France
and Germany (for women) favour a robe belted at the waist with tight
lower sleeves. The robe seems to have a lot of fabric in it, and the
fabric blouses over the belt. The sleeveless surcote is just coming
into fashion. The main exception to this is Spain--13th century Spain
is its own little world costume-wise--they seem to have liked side-laced
surcotes which fit tightly. Styles in England and France at this time
are so similar that it would be difficult to detect whether influence
was from the Continent or from England on Irish dress. (It could well be
either).
The main thing is that I doubt that in the 13th century the
cut of Irish clothing was vastly different than that of English clothing.
Now, the way the Irish combined pieces, and the jewellery/belts/decoration
might have been quite a bit different. But from the description given
of the _laine_, it sounds like a variation on the tunic theme.
National styles, BTW, interest me a great deal. By late in
our period, they had become identifiable--i.e., I can usually tell French,
English, Spanish, Dutch, German, and Italian 16th century garb apart;
but in my period (13th century), except for Spain and a few regional
differences in decoration, there do not yet seem to be any developed
national styles. Comments anyone? I'd love to hear from anyone who's
studyied the development of national styles.
Cheers!
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
From: lyon at infi.net at infi.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Irish Garb
Date: 5 Nov 1995 20:24:50 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
You should try to get a copy of "Dress in Ireland" by Mairead Dunlevy.
It gives good descriptions but the pictures start at about 1500. Good
luck! If you find pictures or other info for earlier, please post here.
I'd be very interested!
Andrea
andreah at cpsnet.com
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Irish name query (was Period Scottish names)
Date: 11 Nov 1995 23:09:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lila Richards (lila at lynx.CO.NZ) wrote:
<discussion of feminine Gaelic patronyms>
: OK. Now I'm *completely* confused! For lo these many years, I have been
: known as Caitlin ni Cumhaill. I originally used 'mac Cumhaill', because I
: wished to imply descent from Fionn (Finn?) mac Cumhaill, but at some stage I
: decided this was incorrect. So ... am I right in assuming from the above
: explanation that 'ni Cumhaill' refers to me as a descendant of Cumhaill?
Yes, that's exactly right. "ni/ Cumhaill" means "female descendent of
Cumhall". As best I understand what you are trying to imply with the
name, you are doing it correctly.</