Scotland-msg - 4/16/05
Scottish culture. Who lived where. Medieval points of interest. The Orkney Islands.
NOTE: See also the files: fd-Scotland-msg, cl-Scotland-msg, cl-Scot-fem-art, cl-Scot-male-art, haggis-msg, SI-songbook1-art, names-Scot-art, names-Scot-msg, Scot-fem-nam-lst.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Scottish persona
Date: 4 Oct 1993 22:35:11 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
aamiller at zebu.cvm.msu.edu (MILLER, AARON) writes:
>Help!! I am a supporter of Robert the Bruce yet have not had any luck
>uncovering much information on Scotland of that time period (particularly
>clothing). With regard to clothing, it seems most sources start before or
>long after my time period (apparently Scots did not wear anything during the
>late 12th and early 13th centuries). If any one has information on this
>subject please let me know. Thanks good gentles.
First of all, I assume that by Robert the Bruce you mean the sixth
Robert of that name, who was also the first Robert Bruce to be King of
Scots. This means you're after the late 13th and early 14th
centuries. If it's the early Robert Bruces you're after, then I can't
help you much, except to say that it was a damned shame the first R
the B earned Saint Malachy's curse.
Second, king Robert and most of his followers were Anglo-Norman barons
like their colleagues in England. They were, as far as we know,
culturally nearly indistinguishable. Robert Bruce VI, Earl of
Carrick, sometime King of Scots, was born in England and spent most of
his younger years at the court of King Edward I "The Hammer of the
Scots" Plantagenet. His wife was the daughter of the English Earl of
Ulster. His brother-in-law was Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester
and Hertford, which meant that he was related by marriage to King
Edward II, Piers Gavaston, and a host of other illustrious
Anglo-Normano-Scoto-Frenchmen of the time. These were people with
names like James "The Black" Douglas, Ingraham de Umphraville and
Marmaduke Thweng; not like MacClear.
Third, Robert did hang around with one bunch of Irish (Highland)
types: his friend Angus Og was a Macdonald, and he was the son of the
chief Macdonald. These were Islemen, and I have no idea what they
wore. If you want to be an Irish isleman, that's the direction to
search.
Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)
Subject: Re: Scottish persona
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 14:04:56 GMT
In article <aamiller.1.2CB08F6A at zebu.cvm.msu.edu>, aamiller at zebu.cvm.msu.edu (MILLER, AARON) writes:
|> clothing). With regard to clothing, it seems most sources start before or
|> long after my time period (apparently Scots did not wear anything during the
|> late 12th and early 13th centuries). If any one has information on this
Well, the lowland Scots were pretty much dressed like the English. The
Highland Scots were noted for discarding shirt and kilt on the way into
battle. During the Covenant Wars (later, I know) one English soldier
recorded that the avalanche of naked men with swords was quite terrifying.
The shirt, great kilt, and belt school of highland dress has great adherence
in the SCA. It's actual historical period is a matter of controversy.
--
Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Scottish persona
Date: 12 Oct 1993 20:15:56 GMT
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team (We're Trained Professionals)
In article <oghTcR_00iV3QAPXpv at andrew.cmu.edu> Gretchen Miller <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 7-Oct-93 Re: Scottish persona by
>Henry Troup at bcarh11a.bnr
>> The shirt, great kilt, and belt school of highland dress has great adherence
>> in the SCA. It's actual historical period is a matter of controversy.
>
>Actually, it's historical period is not a matter of controversy. It's
>period, but only just (I believe 1550 is the earliest anyone's been able
>to document this style, just after the banning of the "Irish dress").
Right answer (There's no controversy), but wrong date. I'm in the middle of
researching/writing a series of articles (possibly a CA) on Highland matters,
and the earliest few references to period Highland dress I have thus far
are from Magnus Barefoot's Saga ("A.D. 1093. It is said when King Magnus
returned from his expedition in the west, he adopted the costume in use in
the western lands [The northern British isles] ... That they went about
bare-legged having short tunics and also upper garments..."), a book called
De Vita Sua by Guibert of Nogent written between 1104 and 1112 ("You might
see the Scots ... barelegged with their shaggy cloaks, a [pouch] hanging
'ex humeris'...") and various other letters and book references, usually
far more detailed (some intimately so), dozens of which are earlier than
1550. There are even stone and ivory carvings depicting Scots in the
"Great Kilt, tunic and belt" {tm} get up starting from about the thirteenth
century.
[In all fairness, the earliest really clear description I have of Highland
dress is from a book from 1521, but that still beats 1550 by a good few
decades.]
-Iain Odlin, who underlines and stresses the point that, until the 18th
Century, the kilt was not worn in the Lowlands. Also, folks: I have been
thouroughly unable, thus far, to document the little kilt (what is today
meant by the word "kilt" and is commonly seen at SCA events) to period.
The best I can do is a painting from 1645. And since most "authorities"
credit an Englishman in 1728 with its invention, the chances of finding
earlier docs are not good. If they even exist at all, of course.
--
------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dlc at fc.hp.com (Dennis Clark)
Subject: Re: Scottish persona
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:53:50 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
MILLER, AARON (aamiller at zebu.cvm.msu.edu) wrote:
: Help!! I am a supporter of Robert the Bruce yet have not had any luck
: uncovering much information on Scotland of that time period (particularly
: clothing). With regard to clothing, it seems most sources start before or
: long after my time period (apparently Scots did not wear anything during the
: late 12th and early 13th centuries). If any one has information on this
: subject please let me know. Thanks good gentles.
There is a book in the Osprey series called "The Scottish and Welsh wars of
Independence" that has some stuff on the time period. Mostly fighter-type
stuff though.
I am assuming you mean the time of King Robert the Bruce which would be late
13th - early 14th century. Lowland Scots were apparently mostly Norman/Scots
so wore what the English did. There is very little information available that
I have been able to find on the Islanders or Highlanders of that time
unfortunately. I myself usually wear French/English garb with a Scottish
"touch" like a plaid under-tunic or Trews.
Good Luck
Kevin MacKinnon (14th C Scots Islander under The Bruce)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: uu632 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (George E. Godwin)
Subject: Re: Celt Tents Info
Organization: The Victoria Freenet Association (VIFA), Victoria, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 06:05:11 GMT
In a previous article, donan at ecst.csuchico.edu (Donan) says:
>
>I am looking for a design of tent which is period to the Scottish Celt
>tribes from 10th - 12th Centuries.
>
Good m'lord,
I am afraid you start with a faulty premise that may be affecting your
ability to find answers.
There are no people in Scotland in the 10th - 12th Centuries that could
be identified as "Celts".
By this period the Highlands of Scotland are inhabited by a mixture of
pict, celt, norsemen and minor amounts of other peoples. The main part
of Scotland was inhabited by a mixture of pict, celt, norman, english
(whatever "english" might be) and others.
The answer to the tent question is that highlanders slept in the open
or in somebody's barn while on the march. Perhaps the wealthy and
powerful might have had tents but there was little baggage other than
what each man would have carried. The tents would have been the same
as those found anywhere else in Western Europe as the wealthy and
powerful would only be copying the more wealthy and powerful.
The answer is basically the same for the "main" part of Scotland except
that there were probably more tents as the "lowlanders" were slightly
wealthier on average.
One other thing to keep in mind is "Who used tents?" - the answer
is usually soldiers on campaign and in some places those participating
in tournaments. As late as the English Civil War, armies campaigning
in domestic actions did not have tents and officers would have
comandeered whatever shelter was available.
In the tournament situation, ostentation and fashion are important
concerns. Use whatever you can find on the French. They have been
setting the standards of fashion for centuries.
I hope this was helpful,
Sgt Duncan Macquarrie
Seagirtshire, An Tir
From: redvers at enterprise.CA (Redvers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: suggestions for trip to UK
Date: 23 May 1996 12:07:27 -0400
Organization: The Internet
Greetings from Colgar,
If you are going to be in Scotland, there is a castle near Inverness
that does B&B. I stayed there last year and it was wonderful. For 30 quid
each we stayed in the upper tower room, had dinner and breakfast, and access
to the grounds of the castle( there is an exotic tree garden and the whole
place is beautiful). The tower was built in the twelve century and the
rooms in the tower are enormous, beautifully decorated, and have ancient
portraits of the family hanging in them. Call well in advance, as the tower
rooms especially, are extremely popular.
The place is called Kilvarock Castle,in Croy, near Inverness, the
ph. # is 01667 493258.
The address is Kilvarock Castle
Croy Inverness
1V12PJ
Scotland
It is out of the way, but it within a mile or two of the Culloden Moor and
Cawdor Castle and is a short drive to Urquhart castle on loch Ness(Another
little hint, go to Urquhart after 6:0opm, when it closes, avoid the crowds,
avoid the admission fee, climb the turnstile, aqnd enjoy the wonderful
sunsets Ness is famous for. We did this accidentally, well, getting there
late, we trepassed on purpose, but we gathered from talking to locals that
this is tolerated by whoever runs the castle.)
Colgar
From: "Michael S. McCollum" <eadric at visi.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: suggestions for trip to UK
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:59 -0400
Organization: Suo Marte
Redvers wrote:
> If you are going to be in Scotland, there is a castle near Inverness
> that does B&B. I stayed there last year and it was wonderful. For 30 quid
Info about Kilvarock Castle deleted
> It is out of the way, but it within a mile or two of the Culloden Moor and
> Cawdor Castle and is a short drive to Urquhart castle on loch Ness(Another
> little hint, go to Urquhart after 6:0opm, when it closes, avoid the crowds,
> avoid the admission fee, climb the turnstile, aqnd enjoy the wonderful
> sunsets Ness is famous for.
While I'm sure Colgar means well, I was slightly offended by this advice.
I retain a paid membership in the National Trust for Scotland for a
couple of reasons. It gives me a discount on many admissions, but more
importantly, it helps to provide funds for the maintenance and upkeep of
many historic buildings and sites. This is why admission is normally
charged. The upkeeps costs are horrendous. I would offer the alternative
suggestion to purchase a membership at one of the many historic sites you
visit. The discount will more than save you the the 6 pounds you'll
"save" by jumping turnstiles.
Eadric
From: s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (Sharon Krossa)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Scottish Information of All Sorts
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:31:23 +0000
Organization: Phuture PhuDs
Greetings!
I am not going to be able to keep up with the Rialto until I finish my PhD
(deadline is looming), so I thought I'd let you know about my new Web site
that addresses a lot of the questions I often answer on the Rialto:
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~his016/medieval_scotland.html
It has information on Scottish Names, Scottish Clothing (including a basic
leine pattern), and a reference list of Scottish history books (including
references for handfasting and marriage).
I'd also truly appreciate it, while I am away toiling on the dreaded
thesis, if people could direct those who ask questions on the Rialto about
these Scottish topics to my website.
Effric neyn Kenyeoch vcralte
mka Sharon Krossa, who's going to miss you all over the next month!
Sharon Krossa: skrossa at svpal.org (permanent)
-or- s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (until November 1996)
From: lordberwyn at aol.com (LordBerwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Robert the Bruce's Heart
Date: 2 Sep 1996 22:14:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
LONDON (AP) -- Just call him Braveheart II.
Scottish conservationists think they have found the mummified heart of Robert
the Bruce, the legendary 14th-century Scottish king who heroically resisted
the English and won independence for his native land.
Discovered in a medieval casket, the heart proves that Bruce's supporters
honored his dying wish to be buried at Melrose Abbey in the southeastern
corner of Scotland, conservationists said Monday.
``It is a very important artifact,'' said Doreen Grove, inspector of ancient
monuments at Historic Scotland, the government conservation group that
investigated the find.
Grove said the king who took up the independence battle from William
``Braveheart'' Wallace will finally get a proper memorial in the abbey
grounds, 667 years after he died.
``This has not been a waste of time if we can perform the burial of one of
Scotland's heroes,'' she said.
Until now, there has been only a sign stating that Bruce's heart had been
buried somewhere on the abbey's grounds. Bruce's bones are buried at
Dunfermline, 15 miles north of Edinburgh.
Although the find is not considered momentous in archeological terms,
Historic Scotland says it is highly significant for Scotland's heritage.
A relic of one of Scotland's favorite sons could also provide another
rallying point for Scottish nationalists, already elated by Prime Minister
John Major's announcement in July that England will return the Stone of
Scone, the cherished symbol of Scottish power.
Scotland's heroes already are a boon to tourism.
Tourism officials reported a bumper year in 1995, thanks partly to two 1994
movies: ``Braveheart,'' Mel Gibson's Oscar-winning epic about Wallace, and
``Rob Roy,'' about 18th-century Highlands clan leader Rob Roy MacGregor,
which starred Liam Neeson.
On Thursday, archeologists undertaking a $450,000 excavation of Melrose
Abbey's chapter house dug up a modern, cylindrical lead casket.
In a painstaking, two-hour operation Monday, two conservationists from
Historic Scotland drilled through one end of the 10-inch casket to reveal a
slightly smaller, cone-shaped medieval casket, also made of lead.
Inside the outer casket there was also a note written by the archeologists
who unearthed it in 1921: ``The enclosed leaden casket containing a heart was
found beneath Chapter House floor in March 1921 and reburied by His Majesty's
Office of Works.''
Those scientists reburied the casket inside the modern casket, probably for
protection, but its location was lost, according to Historic Scotland.
Grove said there was no way of verifying that it was Bruce's heart, but his
was the only heart reported to have been buried at Melrose. There are no
plans to open the medieval container, she said, because the 1921 study
verified that it contained a heart.
Born in 1274, Bruce was crowned king of Scotland in 1306 after he led an
uprising against King Edward I of England.
Known for his doggedness, said to have been inspired by watching a spider
painstakingly weaving its web, he led the defeat of the army of England's
King Edward II in 1314. In 1328, a year before his death, he signed the
treaty of Northampton that recognized both his kingship and Scottish
independence.
Bruce had asked that his heart be buried at Melrose Abbey, but on his
deathbed, he asked a close friend, Sir James Douglas, to take it first on the
Crusades, as Christians fought to recover the Holy Land from Muslims.
Douglas fell fighting the Moors in Spain and, according to legend, hurled the
casket at the enemy as he died.
Bruce's supporters recovered it and buried it at Melrose, a Cistercian abbey
founded in 1136 that was badly damaged in Scotland's wars of independence. It
was extensively rebuilt in the 15th century.
Bruce has not had the same big screen success as Wallace and Rob Roy: ``The
Bruce,'' a low-budget film about his life that starred Oliver Reed, was a
flop.
From: Craig Cockburn <craig at scot.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.org.sca
Subject: Scottish history info
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:02:05 +0100
Organization: Mo dhachaidh
Lots of info on Scottish history in the new soc.culture.scottish FAQ
launched this week. Available by FTP, E-mail or WWW and over 230K of information
address is
http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/scotfaq.html
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), Du\n E/ideann, Alba. (Edinburgh, Scotland)
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig/
From: Quin Hinrichs <flyhrse at goodnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re:Scottish Personas Help!!!
Date: 1 Oct 1996 01:12:06 GMT
Keep in mind that during the period you described, and f