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Scotland-msg - 12/17/14


Scottish culture. Who lived where. Medieval points of interest. The Orkney Islands.


NOTE: See also the files: fd-Scotland-msg, cl-Scotland-msg, cl-Scot-fem-art, cl-Scot-male-art, haggis-msg, SI-songbook1-art, names-Scot-art, names-Scot-msg, Scot-fem-nam-lst.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Scottish persona

Date: 4 Oct 1993 22:35:11 -0400

Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto


aamiller at zebu.cvm.msu.edu (MILLER, AARON) writes:

>Help!! I am a supporter of Robert the Bruce yet have not had any luck

>uncovering much information on Scotland of that time period (particularly

>clothing). With regard to clothing, it seems most sources start before or

>long after my time period (apparently Scots did not wear anything during the

>late 12th and early 13th centuries).  If any one has information on this

>subject please let me know.  Thanks good gentles.


First of all, I assume that by Robert the Bruce you mean the sixth

Robert of that name, who was also the first Robert Bruce to be King of

Scots. This means you're after the late 13th and early 14th

centuries. If it's the early Robert Bruces you're after, then I can't

help you much, except to say that it was a damned shame the first R

the B earned Saint Malachy's curse.


Second, king Robert and most of his followers were Anglo-Norman barons

like their colleagues in England.  They were, as far as we know,

culturally nearly indistinguishable.  Robert Bruce VI, Earl of

Carrick, sometime King of Scots, was born in England and spent most of

his younger years at the court of King Edward I "The Hammer of the

Scots" Plantagenet.  His wife was the daughter of the English Earl of

Ulster. His brother-in-law was Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester

and Hertford, which meant that he was related by marriage to King

Edward II, Piers Gavaston, and a host of other illustrious

Anglo-Normano-Scoto-Frenchmen of the time.  These were people with

names like James "The Black" Douglas, Ingraham de Umphraville and

Marmaduke Thweng; not like MacClear.


Third, Robert did hang around with one bunch of Irish (Highland)

types: his friend Angus Og was a Macdonald, and he was the son of the

chief Macdonald.  These were Islemen, and I have no idea what they

wore. If you want to be an Irish isleman, that's the direction to



Aryk Nusbacher



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)

Subject: Re: Scottish persona

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 14:04:56 GMT


In article <aamiller.1.2CB08F6A at zebu.cvm.msu.edu>, aamiller at zebu.cvm.msu.edu (MILLER, AARON) writes:

|> clothing).  With regard to clothing, it seems most sources start before or

|> long after my time period (apparently Scots did not wear anything during the

|> late 12th and early 13th centuries).  If any one has information on this


Well, the lowland Scots were pretty much dressed like the English. The

Highland Scots were noted for discarding shirt and kilt on the way into

battle. During the Covenant Wars (later, I know) one English soldier

recorded that the avalanche of naked men with swords was quite terrifying.


The shirt, great kilt, and belt school of highland dress has great adherence

in the SCA. It's actual historical period is a matter of controversy.



Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions



From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Scottish persona

Date: 12 Oct 1993 20:15:56 GMT

Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)


In article <oghTcR_00iV3QAPXpv at andrew.cmu.edu> Gretchen Miller <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 7-Oct-93 Re: Scottish persona by

>Henry Troup at bcarh11a.bnr

>> The shirt, great kilt, and belt school of highland dress has great adherence

>> in the SCA. It's actual historical period is a matter of controversy.

>Actually, it's historical period is not a matter of controversy.  It's

>period, but only just (I believe 1550 is the earliest anyone's been able

>to document this style, just after the banning of the "Irish dress").


Right answer (There's no controversy), but wrong date.  I'm in the middle of

researching/writing a series of articles (possibly a CA) on Highland matters,

and the earliest few references to period Highland dress I have thus far

are from Magnus Barefoot's Saga ("A.D. 1093.  It is said when King Magnus

returned from his expedition in the west, he adopted the costume in use in

the western lands [The northern British isles] ... That they went about

bare-legged having short tunics and also upper garments..."), a book called

De Vita Sua by Guibert of Nogent written between 1104 and 1112 ("You might

see the Scots ... barelegged with their shaggy cloaks, a [pouch] hanging

'ex humeris'...") and various other letters and book references, usually

far more detailed (some intimately so), dozens of which are earlier than

1550.  There are even stone and ivory carvings depicting Scots in the

"Great Kilt, tunic and belt" {tm} get up starting from about the thirteenth



[In all fairness, the earliest really clear description I have of Highland

dress is from a book from 1521, but that still beats 1550 by a good few



-Iain Odlin, who underlines and stresses the point that, until the 18th

   Century, the kilt was not worn in the Lowlands.  Also, folks:  I have been

   thouroughly unable, thus far, to document the little kilt (what is today

   meant by the word "kilt" and is commonly seen at SCA events) to period.

   The best I can do is a painting from 1645.  And since most "authorities"

   credit an Englishman in 1728 with its invention, the chances of finding

   earlier docs are not good.  If they even exist at all, of course.


------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------

                 10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: dlc at fc.hp.com (Dennis Clark)

Subject: Re: Scottish persona

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:53:50 GMT

Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site


MILLER, AARON (aamiller at zebu.cvm.msu.edu) wrote:

: Help!! I am a supporter of Robert the Bruce yet have not had any luck

: uncovering much information on Scotland of that time period (particularly

: clothing).  With regard to clothing, it seems most sources start before or

: long after my time period (apparently Scots did not wear anything during the

: late 12th and early 13th centuries).  If any one has information on this

: subject please let me know.  Thanks good gentles.


There is a book in the Osprey series called "The Scottish and Welsh wars of

Independence" that has some stuff on the time period.  Mostly fighter-type

stuff though.

  I am assuming you mean the time of King Robert the Bruce which would be late

13th - early 14th century.  Lowland Scots were apparently mostly Norman/Scots

so wore what the English did.  There is very little information available that

I have been able to find on the Islanders or Highlanders of that time

unfortunately. I myself usually wear French/English garb with a Scottish

"touch" like a plaid under-tunic or Trews.


Good Luck

Kevin MacKinnon (14th C Scots Islander under The Bruce)



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: uu632 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (George E. Godwin)

Subject: Re: Celt Tents Info

Organization: The Victoria Freenet Association (VIFA), Victoria, B.C., Canada

Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 06:05:11 GMT


In a previous article, donan at ecst.csuchico.edu (Donan) says:

>I am looking for a design of tent which is period to the Scottish Celt

>tribes from 10th - 12th Centuries.

Good m'lord,


I am afraid you start with a faulty premise that may be affecting your

ability to find answers.


There are no people in Scotland in the 10th - 12th Centuries that could

be identified as "Celts".


By this period the Highlands of Scotland are inhabited by a mixture of

pict, celt, norsemen and minor amounts of other peoples.  The main part

of Scotland was inhabited by a mixture of pict, celt, norman, english

(whatever "english" might be) and others.


The answer to the tent question is that highlanders slept in the open

or in somebody's barn while on the march.  Perhaps the wealthy and

powerful might have had tents but there was little baggage other than

what each man would have carried.  The tents would have been the same

as those found anywhere else in Western Europe as the wealthy and

powerful would only be copying the more wealthy and powerful.


The answer is basically the same for the "main" part of Scotland except

that there were probably more tents as the "lowlanders" were slightly

wealthier on average.


One other thing to keep in mind is "Who used tents?" - the answer

is usually soldiers on campaign and in some places those participating

in tournaments.  As late as the English Civil War, armies campaigning

in domestic actions did not have tents and officers would have

comandeered whatever shelter was available.


In the tournament situation, ostentation and fashion are important

concerns. Use whatever you can find on the French.  They have been

setting the standards of fashion for centuries.


I hope this was helpful,


Sgt Duncan Macquarrie

Seagirtshire, An Tir



From: redvers at enterprise.CA (Redvers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re:  suggestions for trip to UK

Date: 23 May 1996 12:07:27 -0400

Organization: The Internet


Greetings from Colgar,


       If you are going to be in Scotland, there is a castle near Inverness

that does B&B.  I stayed there last year and it was wonderful.   For 30 quid

each we stayed in the upper tower room, had dinner and breakfast, and access

to the grounds of the castle( there is an exotic tree garden and the whole

place is beautiful).  The tower was built in the twelve century and the

rooms in the tower are enormous, beautifully decorated, and have ancient

portraits of the family hanging in them.  Call well in advance, as the tower

rooms especially, are extremely popular.

       The place is called Kilvarock Castle,in Croy, near Inverness, the

ph. # is 01667 493258.


The address is     Kilvarock Castle

                                Croy  Inverness




It is out of the way, but it within a mile or two of the Culloden Moor and

Cawdor Castle and is a short drive to Urquhart castle on loch Ness(Another

little hint, go to Urquhart after 6:0opm, when it closes, avoid the crowds,

avoid the admission fee, climb the turnstile, aqnd enjoy the wonderful

sunsets Ness is famous for.  We did this accidentally, well, getting there

late, we trepassed on purpose, but we gathered from talking to locals that

this is tolerated by whoever runs the castle.)






From: "Michael S. McCollum" <eadric at visi.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: suggestions for trip to UK

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:59 -0400

Organization: Suo Marte


Redvers wrote:


>         If you are going to be in Scotland, there is a castle near Inverness

> that does B&B.  I stayed there last year and it was wonderful.   For 30 quid


Info about Kilvarock Castle deleted


> It is out of the way, but it within a mile or two of the Culloden Moor and

> Cawdor Castle and is a short drive to Urquhart castle on loch Ness(Another

> little hint, go to Urquhart after 6:0opm, when it closes, avoid the crowds,

> avoid the admission fee, climb the turnstile, aqnd enjoy the wonderful

> sunsets Ness is famous for.


While I'm sure Colgar means well, I was slightly offended by this advice.

I retain a paid membership in the National Trust for Scotland for a

couple of reasons. It gives me a discount on many admissions, but more

importantly, it helps to provide funds for the maintenance and upkeep of

many historic buildings and sites. This is why admission is normally

charged. The upkeeps costs are horrendous. I would offer the alternative

suggestion to purchase a membership at one of the many historic sites you

visit. The discount will more than save you the the 6 pounds you'll

"save" by jumping turnstiles.





From: s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (Sharon Krossa)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Scottish Information of All Sorts

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:31:23 +0000

Organization: Phuture PhuDs




I am not going to be able to keep up with the Rialto until I finish my PhD

(deadline is looming), so I thought I'd let you know about my new Web site

that addresses a lot of the questions I often answer on the Rialto:




It has information on Scottish Names, Scottish Clothing (including a basic

leine pattern), and a reference list of Scottish history books (including

references for handfasting and marriage).


I'd also truly appreciate it, while I am away toiling on the dreaded

thesis, if people could direct those who ask questions on the Rialto about

these Scottish topics to my website.


Effric neyn Kenyeoch vcralte

mka Sharon Krossa, who's going to miss you all over the next month!


Sharon Krossa: skrossa at svpal.org (permanent)

-or- s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (until November 1996)



From: lordberwyn at aol.com (LordBerwyn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Robert the Bruce's Heart

Date: 2 Sep 1996 22:14:41 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)


LONDON (AP) -- Just call him Braveheart II.


Scottish conservationists think they have found the mummified heart of Robert

the Bruce, the legendary 14th-century Scottish king who heroically resisted

the English and won independence for his native land.


Discovered in a medieval casket, the heart proves that Bruce's supporters

honored his dying wish to be buried at Melrose Abbey in the southeastern

corner of Scotland, conservationists said Monday.


``It is a very important artifact,'' said Doreen Grove, inspector of ancient

monuments at Historic Scotland, the government conservation group that

investigated the find.


Grove said the king who took up the independence battle from William

``Braveheart'' Wallace will finally get a proper memorial in the abbey

grounds, 667 years after he died.


``This has not been a waste of time if we can perform the burial of one of

Scotland's heroes,'' she said.


Until now, there has been only a sign stating that Bruce's heart had been

buried somewhere on the abbey's grounds. Bruce's bones are buried at

Dunfermline, 15 miles north of Edinburgh.


Although the find is not considered momentous in archeological terms,

Historic Scotland says it is highly significant for Scotland's heritage.


A relic of one of Scotland's favorite sons could also provide another

rallying point for Scottish nationalists, already elated by Prime Minister

John Major's announcement in July that England will return the Stone of

Scone, the cherished symbol of Scottish power.


Scotland's heroes already are a boon to tourism.


Tourism officials reported a bumper year in 1995, thanks partly to two 1994

movies: ``Braveheart,'' Mel Gibson's Oscar-winning epic about Wallace, and

``Rob Roy,'' about 18th-century Highlands clan leader Rob Roy MacGregor,

which starred Liam Neeson.


On Thursday, archeologists undertaking a $450,000 excavation of Melrose

Abbey's chapter house dug up a modern, cylindrical lead casket.


In a painstaking, two-hour operation Monday, two conservationists from

Historic Scotland drilled through one end of the 10-inch casket to reveal a

slightly smaller, cone-shaped medieval casket, also made of lead.


Inside the outer casket there was also a note written by the archeologists

who unearthed it in 1921: ``The enclosed leaden casket containing a heart was

found beneath Chapter House floor in March 1921 and reburied by His Majesty's

Office of Works.''


Those scientists reburied the casket inside the modern casket, probably for

protection, but its location was lost, according to Historic Scotland.


Grove said there was no way of verifying that it was Bruce's heart, but his

was the only heart reported to have been buried at Melrose. There are no

plans to open the medieval container, she said, because the 1921 study

verified that it contained a heart.


Born in 1274, Bruce was crowned king of Scotland in 1306 after he led an

uprising against King Edward I of England.


Known for his doggedness, said to have been inspired by watching a spider

painstakingly weaving its web, he led the defeat of the army of England's

King Edward II in 1314. In 1328, a year before his death, he signed the

treaty of Northampton that recognized both his kingship and Scottish



Bruce had asked that his heart be buried at Melrose Abbey, but on his

deathbed, he asked a close friend, Sir James Douglas, to take it first on the

Crusades, as Christians fought to recover the Holy Land from Muslims.


Douglas fell fighting the Moors in Spain and, according to legend, hurled the

casket at the enemy as he died.


Bruce's supporters recovered it and buried it at Melrose, a Cistercian abbey

founded in 1136 that was badly damaged in Scotland's wars of independence. It

was extensively rebuilt in the 15th century.


Bruce has not had the same big screen success as Wallace and Rob Roy: ``The

Bruce,'' a low-budget film about his life that starred Oliver Reed, was a




From: Craig Cockburn <craig at scot.demon.co.uk>

Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.org.sca

Subject: Scottish history info

Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:02:05 +0100

Organization: Mo dhachaidh


Lots of info on Scottish history in the new soc.culture.scottish FAQ

launched this week. Available by FTP, E-mail or WWW and over 230K of information

address is



Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), Du\n E/ideann, Alba. (Edinburgh, Scotland)




From: Quin Hinrichs <flyhrse at goodnet.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re:Scottish Personas Help!!!

Date: 1 Oct 1996 01:12:06 GMT


Keep in mind that during the period you described, and for most of the

time after that until way out of SCA period, the Scots and the English

did not get along at all.  The only Scots that got along with the English

at all were those that were playing up to the English Kings to keep from

being beaten into submission.  Your basic highland Scot would not have

much contact with the English at all, unless he was a mercenary, and then

he was killing them.  The chances of "love conquering all" in this case

would be pretty slim.  A lowland Scot (those living near the English

border) would have had more contact with his English neighbors, but it

would likely not have been a friendly relationship.  His goal would have

been to make their lives miserable by raiding and plundering, murdering

when necessary.  The English would have been quite happy to murder the

Scots right back.  An English woman would have been kept away from the

Scottish as much as possible, and would have stayed safely in her village

or castle keep.  The only exception to this would be in the case of a

child of Scottish nobility who due to the family's English affiliations

would dress and behave like an Englishman, and not much like a Scot at

all and that means NO PLAID.  If you watch the movie Braveheart, you will

see the basic relationship between the Scots and English during the

period you've mentioned.  to see how it all turned out, watch Rob Roy.  

In a nutshell the Scots and English did not get along and were each

considered awful, uncivilized, dishonest and repugnant by the other.  So,

it is likely that you will want to dress as a Scottish woman for the



Anyway, here are some answers to your questions about Scottish women.  

The religion would have been basically Catholic, with many pagan

traditions and superstitions thrown in.  The wedding would have been an

old Catholic ritual (once again for a little idea, watch Braveheart).  

The clothing is very hard to describe but here's an idea.  A very upper

class Scottish woman (nobility or "English suck-ups") would have dressed

as the English did, and as I said before that includes no plaid.  The

traditional garb, however, is quite simple to make and exotic to look at.

The basic underdress is called a 'leine' or linn.  It is either white,

off-white or a shade of saffron (yellow to gold).  It is a loose-fitting

chemise with raglan sleeves and a very large neck that is gathered on a

draw string at the neckline.  It has huge, wide sleeves that are pleated

or gathered until they hang to the wrist.  Over this is worn a bog dress

which is a well-fitting bodice that laces up the front.  The skirt is

attached at the waistline, but is left open in the front.  The whole

thing is lined in a contrasting or complimentary color.  Under the bog

dress may be worn an additional skirt to add color.  Over this is the

woman's version of the plaid.  It is called an arasaid.  It is about 4-6

yards of tartan that is belted at the waist and draped and pinned over

the shoulders.  The feet are traditionally bare, but to accomodate modern

tastes, leather mocassins or slippers are acceptable. Celtic embroidery

all over the bog dress and skirt is appropriate.  The headwear would be

the kertch (a triangular piece of fabric wrapped around the head with the

middle point hanging down the back -- sort of like a gypsy scarf crossed

with a small turban).  Also acceptable for a woman is the veil and linen

headroll (although more Irish than Scottish).


If you want more information on Scottish garb, or pictures or patterns,

E-mail me directly at flyhrse at goodnet.com.


Best of luck!

Mar sin leat an-drasda,

Mairi NicMorgan of the Clan MacAodh

(Mundanely -- Quin Hinrichs)



From: sweetsheep at aol.com (Sweetsheep)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Anyone been to Scotland?

Date: 7 Jan 1997 23:35:23 GMT


Yes!!!! I made a pilgrimage last summer (late June)!!!!  It was

wonderful!!!! Even my Lord husband (a Sassenach from the War of the

Roses) fell in love with Scotland.  He's currently living and working in

London and has been for about a year.  (GTE subcontracted to Mercury

Communications) I went for a visit last summer and  we took a trip to

Scotland. We spent some time in Edinborough and then wandered the

Highlands - I had to recreate my life as a MacPherson you know!  ;-)

We're going back this summer.


I don't know what kind of deals you're looking for, but have you contacted

the Scottish Tourism Board?  I called a 1-800# that I got off the travel

channel last year (Jan. '96) and they sent me quite a bit of info.  I

don't have the number anymore, but the travel chanel still runs the ad

occasionally, plus an operator or 1-800 directory should be able to find

it easily.  I used the official tourist information to identify the

historic sites that I wanted to visit and their admission costs and

affiliation. Some places are free, but less than half the sites I visited

in Great Britain were.  The rest are (usually, but not always) members of

either the English Heritage, National Trust or National Trust for

Scotland. Most of those accept the British Heritage Pass which is

available from travel agents and British Airlines.  The pass seems pretty

expensive but it gets you in free to 600 some sights, and sometimes gets

you a discount to others.  Contact someone for information about the pass

and a list of sites that accept it - if you are planning on visiting lots

of them then it's definately worth it, if you're only interested in a

couple of the sites it's not.


You may also get a better deal on airfare if you fly in to Heathrow.  It

seems really far away, but a round trip (called Return Ticket in England)

train fare to Edinborough was only about 40 pounds and the trip took about

4 hours.  I went to Scotland right away after arriving in London - I

arrived at Heathrow, did some sight seeing at the Tower of London and then

caught the train to Edinborough.  Cab fare from Heathrow to the Tower is

around 20-5 pounds.  You can also take the Tube, which is much cheaper,

but travel light and try to get someone to explain the system _before_ you

get there.  It did make for a long day, I admit, but it was well worth it.

Travel agents can make train reservations for you.  You could also time

it so that you have enough time on your return to London to visit the

Victoria and Albert Museum - an absolute _must_ for SCAers!!!!!!!!!!  Just

a suggestion.


Some helpful hints:  Take layers to Scotland - I think we saw the sun

_once_, lots of drizzle, highs in the mid 50's to low 60's in Edinborough

and _COLDER_ in the highlands; RENT A CAR if you want to do much traveling

around - trains connect major cities only and buses are few and far

between. The only way to tour the highlands is by tour group or rental

car. Also, gas is VERY expensive - currently about $3(American) per

gallon. If you want to see Holyrood House, check to see when the Queen

will be in residence and don't go then!!!!  She was occupying the palace

while I was there and it was consequently closed.  

There are bank machines in every town of any size ( and even some of "no

size") and they accept bank cards from Amican banks.  USE THEM!!!!  They

will give you, by far, the best exchange rate and you don't have to carry

a huge wad of bills or travelers checks (which, incidentally, will be

accepted at most places, but are also subject to _their_ exchange rate!).

Check with your banking institution before you go to find out what

account(s) will be accessed by the overseas machines and/or if there is a

phone system set up to allow transfers and such.  (Our check card/bank

card withdraws from CHECKING when used from overseas - luckily we have a

phone transfer system.


I'm sure that there are other tips that I could think of.  Feel free to

email me directly.


Lady Dulcia MacPherson, Barony of Wyvernwood, Trimaris

(mka Libby Brown)



From: mongoose at yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Anyone been to Scotland?

Date: 7 Jan 1997 22:26:03 GMT

Organization: Monash University


Lord Whoever (deadpool at phoenix.net) wrote:

: I am in the middle of a slight (and mundane) crisis and maybe some of

: you could help. My lady and I are getting hitched in June and she has,

: much to my delight, agreed (willingly, even!) to go to Scotland for

: the honeymoon. We want to see Glenfinnan Monument, Bannockburn, Lock

: Ness, Eilean Donan Castle, and a few other required things, as well as

: pick up some tartan (so I can avoid paying $60 a yard for it in the

: future). Here's the problem, I am running out of places to look for

: information. Has anyone been to Scotland and can give some advice or

: point me to someone IN Scotland that can? I will be talking to a

: travel agent, but I get rather good deals on most vacation stuff

: through my father (Captain for an airline). I really hope I don't

: start another arguement with this plead though :)


       I went to Scotland for the first time last year and believe me,

you won't run out of things to do. What we did was to hire a car, and

drive around with an AA road atlas of the U.K., which worked really well.

The map had sites of interest marked (battle fields, castles, stone

circles etc.), so if we were passsing near something, we knew we could

take a look.

       Don't believe all the stuff about "You'll get bored with castles" by

the way. We spent three weeks in the Brittish Isles seeing as many as we

could, and were only disappointed by Blarney.

       Other places worth seeing are Edinburgh, Inverness, Gretna Green

(a must for honeymooners, although eloping there is more romantic) and

Dunvegan castle. If you enjoy hiking the Isle of Skye is fantastic, and

if you enjoy whiskey apparently the other Inner Hebridean Islands are

rather good.

       I also recommend staying at Bed and Breakfasts. They're cheap,

and you only require a sandwich for lunch afterwards.

       You may be disappointed with some of the shops in Scotland. In

the main they sell the same stuff you can get anywhere ("Know your family

tartan" and other similar rubbish), but you can still stumble across

something wonderful.

       Enjoy the trip (I'm sure you will, barring injury or illness).


Conrad Leviston | 'Quotation is the refuge of the lame mind'- Confucius

http://yoyo.cc | 'It takes a thief to catch a thief, and for the same

.monash.edu.au | reason it takes a mongoose to catch a snake in the

/~mongoose/     | grass'- Herbert Frond



From: rmacdonald at microd.com

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 97 11:16:37 GMT

Subject: Re: Anyone been to Scotland?

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


Lord Whoever <deadpool at phoenix.net> wrote:


> We want to see Glenfinnan Monument, Bannockburn, Lock

> Ness, Eilean Donan Castle, and a few other required things, as well as

> pick up some tartan (so I can avoid paying $60 a yard for it in the

> future). Here's the problem, I am running out of palces to look for

> information.


> Laird Collin MacLean.

> Ravensfort, Ansteorra

> deadpool at phoenix.net

> www.phoenix.net/~deadpool


I've been to most of these places with my parents back in 1980, so I can't give

you anyone to talk to directly.  Try contacting your local Caladonian or Clan

Societies and see if they have any contacts.  Also if you plan to visit

Glencoe, stay up at the King's House on Rannoch Moor, a lovely quaing sprawl in

the heather.  To see most of the spread you are looking at you will probably

need to rent a car and get used to driving on the left side of the road, don't

forget an international drivers liscense, I was lucky at the time and had my

USAREUR liscense. A recommendation for maps is to pick up the appropriate Royal

Ordanance Survey maps for the Eastern and Western Highlands, they make good

road maps as well as show you what to expect in terrain around you.


Richard A. Macdonald


dedicated follower of Fr. Luca Pacioli, master juggler.


"No S**t there I was." is the past tense of "Oh S**t, here they come!!!"


Iain of Rannoch  ~);^) (Found in Fiach Ogan, Trimaris)

Cadet to Duke(Don) Aaron Brech Gordon



From: Morgoth <morgoth at nome.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Anyone been to Scotland?

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:48:54 -0800


Good places to go? Isle of Skye, I missed it the last time. Stop

by Iverness and the Loch. I forget what battle was fough near

there, but... there was a few.. My ancestors (mundane and one of

my personas') were from there). Also go north to John O'Groats

and catch a ferry to the Orkeney, though not a part of Scotland,

they are a nice place to visit (especially if you catch the last

small ferry of the season, just as the seas start to storm, it

can be way fun to ride the prow of the ferry in 30 or so foot

swells (grin).


Fr. Morgoth, Cyberabbey of St. Cyril



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: tip at ai.chem.ohiou.edu (Tom Perigrin)

Subject: Re: Anyone been to Scotland?

Organization: Ohio University

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:19:00 GMT


Morgoth <morgoth at nome.net> wrote:

> Good places to go?


If you love the pre-iron ages (a bit pre-SCA) and you want to reaaaaally

travel, go all the way to the North End of Scotland, and keep going.  Go to

the Orkneys.  There are burial mounds, standing stone circles, tombs, and

such ALL over the Orkneys.  And since so few people get there, most of the

sites (except Mayes Howe) are not only open to the public, they are free

and unattended and generally unvisited.   Especially if you get off of the

main island, and get out to Rousey, Wyre, etc...   Occasionally you have to

stop at a local house or shop to sign out a key.    Mind you, if you go to

these lesser islands you will have to watch the ferry schedual very



Stonehenge is closed, except to stand at 100 feet and go "oooh aaah" (and

on a few very frozen ground days mid-winter).  But in the Orkneys you can

spend an hour, generally without other people around, sitting in the

burials, looking at the rocks, looking at the tooling marks,  and thinking

about times-gone-by.


There are a few "modern ruins"...  There are a few ruined monasteries and

churches from the 1000's,   and some of the grafitti in Mayes Howe is

Viking Runes ("Ole was here.  It was cold, and there was nothing to

steal"). There are a few iron-age ruins as well.


Go before it becomes a tourist attraction, and the things are put behind

fences and they charge admission.


You can fly to Kirkwall, the main town on the main Orkney island.  Other

than that, expect to spend a FULL day driving from Aberdeen...  the roads

are small, narrow, winding, and frequented by sheep who do not see a need

to move all that rapidly when you approach.


By the way... the B&B on Rousey (there is only one) had really really great

food!   And if you get to Wyre, go to the house of Ian Flaws (there are

only three houses), and remind him of the time in late 80's when three

tanks helped him put some stones on his garden wall, and then spent the

afternoon in his kitchen, drinking tea, eating cookies, and swapping jokes

and stories about life in the USA.


Lovely friendly people, and a blasted desolate landscape.  Plan on "cold",

even midsummer.



From: norseman at voicenet.com (Chip W.)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Anyone been to Scotland?

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:26:47 GMT


tip at ai.chem.ohiou.edu (Tom Perigrin) wrote:


>In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.970114234609.17181B-100000 at dwarf.nome.net>,

>Morgoth <morgoth at nome.net> wrote:

>> Good places to go?


>If you love the pre-iron ages (a bit pre-SCA) and you want to reaaaaally



(info about the Orkneys  snipped)

>Stonehenge is closed, except to stand at 100 feet and go "oooh aaah" (and

>on a few very frozen ground days mid-winter).  But in the Orkneys you can

>spend an hour, generally without other people around, sitting in the

>burials, looking at the rocks, looking at the tooling marks,  and thinking

>about times-gone-by.


Another great place to for *old* sites is the Isle of Lewis and

Harris. The Callanish Stone circle is amazing, older than Stonehenge,

not quite as large, but fully accessible and very dramatic.  Carloway

Broch is an Iron Age tower, a lot larger than you might think they had

then, and while remote and not overrun with tourists, also accessible.

Other stones are sprinkled around the island (the inhabitants call it

two islands but they are connected), and there's a lovely little

church (the church of the MacLeod family) in the southern tip of

Harris. There's also the Butt of Lewis (tall headland facing into the

sea), a castle (we didn't get to see it, don't know if it's open to

the public but I heard it was nifty on the outside), several

blackhouses and displays from more recent times, and a lot of crafters

who are more affordable than those on Skye.  It's not nearly as far as

the Orkneys, the climate is remarkably mild for so far north (Gulf

Stream influence) and the people are lovely.  And the entire island(s)

lend themselves wonderfully to sitting and contemplating and absorbing

the ancient atmosphere.   I highly recommend making the ferry ride

from Skye!


Linette de Gallardon



From: s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (Sharon Krossa)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Anyone been to Scotland?

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:30:54 +0000


In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.970114234609.17181B-100000 at dwarf.nome.net>,

Morgoth <morgoth at nome.net> wrote:


>Good places to go? Isle of Skye, I missed it the last time. Stop

>by Iverness and the Loch. I forget what battle was fough near

>there, but... there was a few.. My ancestors (mundane and one of

>my personas') were from there). Also go north to John O'Groats

>and catch a ferry to the Orkeney, though not a part of Scotland,

>they are a nice place to visit (especially if you catch the last

>small ferry of the season, just as the seas start to storm, it

>can be way fun to ride the prow of the ferry in 30 or so foot

>swells (grin).


You can't go far wrong, no matter where you go. Don't plan to spend all

your time in the cities, though. Get out of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen,

etc., and you'll run across all sorts of great ruins, non-ruins, castles,

battlefields, etc. The cities are pretty good for museums, of course, and

there are some nice museums in the middle of nowhere, as well.


I would like to point out, however, that Orkney is indeed part of Scotland,

as is Shetland, and has been since 1468/9.


Eafric niin Kenyoech Vc Ralte

mka Sharon Krossa, who lives in Scotland, actually ;-)

skrossa at svpal.org (permanent) -or- s.krossa at abdn.ac.uk (until Dec 1997)

Medieval Scotland Web Page (including information on names & clothing):




From: "AJ" <aj at lothene.demon.co.uk>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Golf ?

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:45:13 GMT


Glen Marshall <glenmarshall at worldnet.att.net> wrote in article


> Yes.  Check-out references to the Bruntsfield Links in Edinburgh.  This is

> a park that is the remains of an ancient golf course - some say the oldest

> in Scotland and, possibly, elsewhere.  It is maintained as a small (3-hole,

> I think) course, with grass at the height that sheep would graze it to.

> The equipment was a leather ball stffed with bird feathers and one club

> that is not unlike today's woods.  The object was to hit a series of

> flagpoles, much like the flags in the holes today.  You can still play this

> ancient form at Bruntsfield Links.  And there is the Old Golf tavern next

> to the links, dating from 1495.  Personally, I don't play golf but I *did*

> get drunk at the tavern back in 1980.


Hi there. I am writing this in Edinburgh just before going out to our

weekly Fighter Practise on Bruntsfield Links. The course there is a "Pitch

& Putt" or very short hole course, with no bunkers. The total area of it is

probably about 200 by 200 yards. It has got many more than 3 holes, though.

I've never actually counted. The grass is mown short as on a normal golf

course, but with the usual style of greens. (I'm not a golfer myself, I

just know the place well.)  It's part of a public park on the south side of

the city which was originally just outside the city walls. The low-lying

part was originally marsh, now drained, which ran up to the wall &

protected it on that side. It is still a bylaw that it is forbidden to

cross the park in a boat after dark, allegedly! Originally the only reason

to do this would have been to sneak in or out of the city. The other

interesting historical aspect of the area is the large number of

depressions which I have been told are old Plague Pits, where the bodies

were disposed of. We keep our Tetanus shots up to date...


I saw an article in a local newspaper a few years ago in a series on "The

History of Your Neighbourhood" which said that the Scottish army was

mustered on Bruntsfield Links before marching south to their eventual

defeat at Flodden. There are apparently letters from the Army Commanders

complaining of their difficulty in getting the troops to drill because they

were all off playng Golf! Let this be a warning to anyone planning on

setting up a golf course at a war!


The Old Golfe Tavern is a very good Pub, with decent real ales. I have

frequently imbibed there.


Hope this was interesting to someone. Other pub recommendations availiable

to anyone planning to visit!




aj at lothene.demon.co.uk

Alastair Saunders



From: Larry Johnson <ljohnsn1 at idt.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: hetairos/courtesan question

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:45:06 -0700

Organization: IDT


If you want some real Scottish history, go to

http://members.aol.com/sconemac/index.html and

http://members.aol.com/skyelander/index/html both web sites are chock full of

the correct historys of Scottish affairs. SconeMac has about 55 articles now

and Skyelander has almost as many, and is the history editor of U.S. Scot on

line. It is a fine place to start any Scottish research.


Yours aye,

Labhruinn MacIain an Mor


John Wilson wrote:


> Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message <353224D4.16AB at cornell.edu>...

> >Yeah!  And you can use "Braveheart" to research 13th-14th century

> >Scottish history, too!

> This maybe a joke but the sad thing is ..many people in the SCA do use this

> movie as a research source.



From: gkirk at pe.net (Gregory Kirk)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: hetairos/courtesan question

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:40:44 GMT


>If you want some real Scottish history, go to

>http://members.aol.com/sconemac/index.html and

>http://members.aol.com/skyelander/index/html both web sites are chock full of

>the correct historys of Scottish affairs. SconeMac has about 55 articles now

>and Skyelander has almost as many, and is the history editor of U.S. Scot on

>line. It is a fine place to start any Scottish research.

>Labhruinn MacIain an Mor


I'd be exteemely leery of using those sites.  I've visited both, and

neither had, at the time I visited, any refereces, foot notes, or even

a bibliography.  I was, for a time on their mailling list, and frankly

found it to be pretty weak on the historical reaserch front.





From: Larry Johnson <ljohnsn1 at idt.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: hetairos/courtesan question

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:24:13 -0700

Organization: IDT


> I'd be exteemely leery of using those sites.  I've visited both, and

> neither had, at the time I visited, any refereces, foot notes, or even

> a bibliography.  I was, for a time on their mailling list, and frankly

> found it to be pretty weak on the historical reaserch front.


I know Lady Nancy Gunn MacCorkill and she is the Clan Gunn Official Historian with a lot of credit to her name.  She communicates with the Lord Lyon on occasion to clarify Scottish heraldry, and other topics as well.  I would think she would give you her footnotes and or bibliography if you asked her.  I don't think U.S. Scot magazine would print her and her son Robert Gunn's articles if they weren't right on.


Labhruinn MacIain an Mor



[Submitted by: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]

Subject: Fwd: Scottish history.

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:56:57 EST

From: EoganOg at aol.com

To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org


> In preparation of a new persona, could those with similar Scottish

> personas point out some sources of Scottish history?  In particular the

> time around the 1100-1300s.  Especially the status of the country with

> its neighbor England.


> ---Eogan I know you can, but I don't want to occupy you too much.


No bother at all, lad!


I have put together a good annotated bibliography for the reign of King

Robert the Bruce and webbed it.  The URL is:






Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:22:54 -0500

From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)

Subject: Re: SC - Period Scottish Source?


>A Book of Historical Recipes by Sara Paston-Williams

>The National Trust of Scotland, 1995 ISBN 0-7078-0240-7;

>Posted by Paul Macgregor

>> >

>This book _is_ available from Amazon, BTW. I ordered a copy, but >there

wasn't much information available about it. We will see, eh?



Please do let me know.  When we were in Scotland, two of our party stayed

at a reconstructed castle.  It was a small one, and it had been bought as

a pile of rubble destined for the wrecking ball.  Peter Gillies is the

man who bought it and reconstructed it, and he and his partner now run it

as a B&B.  He gave us the grand tour, and was thrilled with folks who

were interested in the trials of period re-construction.  (My favorite

example was of him hiding Georgian-era plasters under piles of rubble so

the Scottish Trust wouldn't see them.  If they had, they would have made

him preserve them, when he wanted to restore the building to it's

original 1585 glory.  They did a FANTASTIC job of restoring everything,

including a heraldic ceiling, but I digress....)  He has a chef who comes

in to do weddings and other large dinners, and he was interested in

finding sources of period Scottish recipies.  We talked for a while, and

he asked me to send him any information I could find.   I said that it

felt kind of like sending 'Coals to Newcastle', but that I would do what

I could.  So, this book sounds like just the thing.  Please give us a

review when you get it, would you?


       Mistress Christianna MacGrain (who has selfish reasons for

wanting period Scottish recipies as well :)


P.S. For those of you who might be interested, the name of the place is

Ballencrieff Castle, and the web site for it is -




Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:22:38 -0600

From: Tim Weitzel & Wendy Robertson <timwendy at avalon.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Pictish Stone [SCA]


>What was the Pictish "Inverurie Stone", where was it found, what period was

>it dated to...blah blah blah...<grin>

>Basically, what can anyone tell me about this stone in 100 words or less?



Inverurie is a town in North East Scotland (not too far from Aberdeen). I

would guess the stone was found there. The Ordnance Survey map of Ancient

Britain states for Inverurie "Pictish symbol stones in churchyard.

Brandsbutt, a symbol stone with Ogham inscription." When I was in Inverurie

(Sept. 1986) I saw one stone with an Ogham inscription on it (8th c). It

had been broken up earlier to be used for building other items. It had

since been reassembled and was now in the midst of a modern housing

development. It is decorated with a crescent and V rod and a snake and Z

rod. If you are interested in this stone and can receive attachments, I can

send you a picture of it to you.


Ailene ingen Aedain

Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir



Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:23:13 -0600

From: Robar <mortis at ctwok.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Help needed with Scottish Marriage Customs


Greetings Mikhail,


There is a book called "City, Marriage, Tournament: Arts of Rule in Late

Medieval Scotland" by Louise Olga Fradenburg 1995 isbn 0299129543. I'm

not sure how well it will help your daughter in her research since I

haven't been able to get hold of it yet. It's on my list of books to



Moira nic Kissock



Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:07:56 +0000

From: "William T. Fleming" <gorp at erols.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Help needed with Scottish Marriage Customs


> My daughter (who currently lacks access to the net) is doing research on

> Scottish marriage laws and customs.  She's focusing on the similarities and

> differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant practices in the late

> medieval and renaissance periods.  Any help or pointers to available

> materials would be appreciated.

> Mikhail


I recomend glancing at Scottish Lore and Folklore by Ronald MacDonald

Douglas. Scotland still recognizes ancient "irregular" forms of

marriage which other nations outlawed after the Council of Trent.  For

irregular marriage, no clergy is neccesary all one needs to do is to

declare mariage in front of two witnesses, promise marriage before

intercourse, or live with someone as man and wife and gaining the repute

of marriage.





Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:12:23 -0500

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Help needed with Scottish Marriage Customs


Luznicky wrote:

> My daughter (who currently lacks access to the net) is doing research on

> Scottish marriage laws and customs.  She's focusing on the similarities and

> differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant practices in the late

> medieval and renaissance periods.  Any help or pointers to available

> materials would be appreciated.

> Thank you

> Mikhail


http://www.electricscotland.com/history/social/sh7.html Scottish Weddings






http://www.dalriada.co.uk/site.htm search under weddings (3)












Subject: Re: BG - Rapier Melees

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 06:47:01 MST

From: ldcharls at swbell.net

To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG


David & Sheryl Marsh wrote:

> What were the weapons of the

> Wardens of the Border ( English-Scotish border)? Did they may have had

> skimishs with rapiers? I hope so but I fear it is wishful thinking.


According to the book "The Steel Bonnets" which deals with the Border

Rievers, the favorite weapons in the Marches were basket-hilted

broadsword, lance, pistol, and sometimes musket or blunderbuss.

Sorry, no rapiers.





Subject: Re: BG - Rapier Melees

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 21:21:10 MST

From: keandbc at ix.netcom.com (Keith Ewing)

To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG


>David & Sheryl Marsh wrote:


>> What were the weapons of the

>> Wardens of the Border ( English-Scotish border)? Did they may have

>> had skimishs with rapiers? I hope so but I fear it is wishful

> thinking.

> According to the book "The Steel Bonnets" which deals with the Border

>Rievers, the favorite weapons in the Marches were basket-hilted

>broadsword, lance, pistol, and sometimes musket or blunderbuss.

> Sorry, no rapiers.



An excellent book. I remember it as small crossbows more often than

pistols. Hard to keep powder dry on horseback in Southern

Scotland/Northern England.





Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:17:47 +0100

From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>

To: "LIST Sca-arts" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Fw: Ancient Stones of Scotland website


Might be of interest to Scots personas out there !


>Dear friends,

>The "Ancient Stones of Scotland" website - the result of more than

>two years' work in collaboration with SCRAN (Scottish Cultural

>Resources Access Network) - is finally available online:


>It is a comprehensive guide to the ancient stone monuments of

>Scotland, ranging from the earliest stone circles and rock carvings

>to the Iron Age brochs and souterrains. On these pages you can find

>the photographs (high and low-resolution) of 182 ancient sites, along

>with descriptions, maps, 50 panoramic movies, a complete glossary and

>an extensive bibliography.

>As always, we welcome comments, suggestions and criticisms

>Paola Arosio & Diego Meozzi

>Stone Pages



>If you have time, visit our message board

><http://www.stonepages.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro>; too!



Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:38:59 -0500

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Holidays


Gwendolen Lambert wrote:

> I have been offered an invitation to spend the Christmas holidays in

> Scotland, which I've accepted (since it's a gift from a friend).  We are

> also planning to travel to England to visit my family, as well as Paris and,

> possibly, Amsterdam.  I was wondering if anyone can make recommendations as

> to what books I could look for with respect to period cooking that are

> difficult to obtain here in the U.S.

> Although I lived in the UK twenty-something years ago, I don't remember

> what's there or how it has changed.  Any recommendations as to shops or

> historical sites that are a "must see" would also be appreciated.

> Gwendolen


It's been a very long time since I've been there, but remember a wonderful wool outlet shop in St. Andrews...not to mention that St. Andrews is a lovely town. I got some wonderful buys there, including fabric for a cloak that I'm still using...for over 15 years!  It was so tightly woven, almost to the point of being felted, that I didn't need to put a warm lining in it...and it's water-resistant!  I think I paid about $4.50/yard

for it!





Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:39:32 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Scottish food


Johnnae llyn lewis sends greetings:


I have gone back through my files and located

an article on medieval Scotland that those

interested in such things might want to look up.

It's by Peter Yeoman, who is Fife's Regional

Archaeologist. He is the author of Medieval Scotland.

The two introductory paragraphes are below:


Dispelling medieval Scotland's gloom

The modern Scots have tended to look back on

their medieval centuries as a time of unmitigated

misery. It is certainly true that periods of

intermittent warfare, pestilence and famine,

coupled with a climate which was even worse than

today, would not seem like a recipe for a Golden Age.

And yet for Scotland the Middle Ages were in fact a

period of growth; growth in towns, in trade, and in

standards of living.


Scotland embraced urbanism from a standing start in

the early 12th century, through the granting of `burgh'

status by David I and his successors to numerous

settlements such as Edinburgh and Glasgow, Stirling,

Berwick, Perth, and St Andrews; and archaeology has

shown that the creation of burghs was rapid and successful.

Urbanism acted as a spur to the spread of innovation and

the creation of a mercantile trading economy, which in

turn stimulated an increase in agricultural production

and fundamentally altered the subsistence way of life

that had formerly prevailed throughout much of the country.


Find the rest of the article at:



This was found at Council for British Archaeology

Internet Information Service

** the gateway to British archaeology online **



It's a neat website for a number of reasons.


Johnna Holloway



From: StCurrie at ix.netcom.com (Steven Currie)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Books & New Scottish History Magazine

Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 04:57:46 GMT


There is a new magazine "History Scotland" that has just come out.  I

purchased the premiere issue.  You can go to

www.historyscotland.com   to check it out.


Subcribtion is $40/year for 6 issues.


The magazine reviewed three period books:


1.  "An Antidote to the English: The Auld Alliance" by Norman

Macdougall -   Describes the long time alliance between Scotland &

France between 1295 and the first decade of the1600's (when James VI

became king of England)


From the review: "The book deals with the military and diplomatic

aspects of an alliance that spanned nearly three centuries. It

concentrates on the interraltionship between Scotland and France, and

the role that England played in strengthening or weakening it, whether

consciously or not, at various times."  Dr. Cathart, of the University

of Aberdeen, the reviewer, says it is short on the economic factors of

the Alliance.


The reviewer reports that there is an absence of footnotes or

bibliography, but there are suggestions for further reading.  


Overall, I would say Dr. Cathart's review is a positive one.


2.  "Medieval Scotland" by A.D.M. Burrell  - Heavily covers the period

1300 and later.  The book is a synthesis, and does not have much

original research.  The medieval Church is covered well according to

the reviewer.  


3.  "The Black Death and the History of the Plagues 1345-1730" by

William Naphy and Andrew Spicer - From the reviewer: "This was one of

the  most enjoyable history books that I had read in a long time.  It

was that rare commodity that eludes most historians - a good read! It

was difficult to put down because you wanted to find out what happened

next, even though you already knew."


These should be available at Amazon UK (these were published in Great



Etienne of Burgundy

Barony of Calafia

Kingdom of Caid



Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:40:35 -0700 (PDT)

From: mark zawadzki <zawadzki at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Things to bring from/taste test in Scotland (was Wales)

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org


Just went to Scotland in August. Do have a dinner in a

real pub. Haggis, black pudding, fresh bannocks, steak




Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:02:42 -0400 (EDT)

From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] RESOURCE

To: <herbalist at ansteorra.org>, <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,


sorry for duplication but hey look wow:


On oxbow books:


Plants and People in Ancient Scotland

by Camilla Dickson and James Dickson


An authoritative and interesting study of the exploitation of different

plant species by the people of Scotland, from the earliest Mesolithic

people, through to the medieval period. Camilla and James Dickson look at

both wild and cultivated plants and their wide-ranging uses not only as

food, but also as fuel, in construction, dyeing, in medicine and for

producing alcohol. From the Yellow Iris found at Skara Brae to the hidden

delights of the sewage-filled ditch at Bearsden Fort, this is an important

archaeobotanical study written for the general reader as much as the

specialist. Includes a large section on noteworthy plants which is packed

full of information and is a great source of reference. 320p, 171 b/w

illus (Tempus 2000)

ISBN 0752419056. Paperback. Publishers price US $39.99, DBBC Price US



-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika   jenne at fiedlerfamily.net



Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:20:45 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Food In England OOP

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Come to think of it...one of the best meals I had was at Scone

Palace...the restaurant is in the old kitchen...and I had salmon that

had been caught in the river that runs by the property. GREAT stuff!




PS: If the woolen mills are still in St. Andrews, be sure to visit them.

I'm still wearing the cloak I made from the wool I purchased there for a

song a very long time ago...about 18 years ago!



From: tmcd at panix.com

Date: January 12, 2005 3:34:38 PM CST

To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Braveheart (hochkhkhk PTUI)


On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 Brian_Martin at dell.com wrote:

> [tmcd at panix.com, Daniel de Lincoln]

>> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 kmarsh at cox-internet.com <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org>

>> wrote:

>>> Re: "Bravesmith"...good one.


>> The word "good" doesn't belong anywhere near an allusion to

>> _Braveheart_ (hochkhkhk PTUI).

> And I thought that I was the only one who felt that way about

> Braveheart. Freeeedooooomm!!! Give me a break.


To address the second point: I suspect that "freedom" was a potent

word in the Middle Ages, even if they weren't nationalistic in the

same way as today.


But as for loathing _Braveheart_ (hochkhkhk PTUI): there's a reason

why soc.history.medieval calls it TFWNSNBU, or "That Film Whose Name

Shall Not Be Uttered".  Sharon Krossa discusses / disses it briefly at



     Basically, as an historian, my opinion of Braveheart is that it is

     a work of fantasy, not history. Any resemblance to actual persons

     or events, in other words to real history, appear to be purely

     accidental. My best advice, for anyone interested in the real

     story of William Wallace, Robert Bruce, and the Scottish Wars of

     Independence, is not to believe anything, whether major or minor,

     depicted in the film, but instead read some reliable history books

     about the period. Enjoy the film as a fantasy film, by all means

     -- just as one enjoys Star Wars or any other work of the

     imagination -- simply do not mistake it for history. The events

     aren't accurate, the dates aren't accurate, the characters aren't

     accurate, the names aren't accurate, the clothes aren't accurate

     -- in short, just about nothing is accurate.


     Admittedly, the film does have a few elements that coincide with

     real history. However, there isn't one of these elements that I

     feel I can mention without having to explain all of the many

     associated elements leading up to and/or inextricably intertwined

     with it that do not coincide with real history. And once started

     explaining the inaccuracies, there is no stopping -- they are so

     very numerous. (See Braveheart Errors: An Illustration of Scale.)

     And, of course, unless one already knows the details of the true

     history of William Wallace and the Wars of Independence, there is

     no way from just watching the film one can determine which aspects

     of which elements are those few that coincide with real

     history. It is far safer, and far more efficient, to just ignore

     the whole film, as regards history, and read a good Scottish

     history book instead.


She then goes on to link to some bibliographies.


<http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotbiblio/bravehearterrors.shtml>; is

four pages (on my screen) of explanations with


     So, in the [first] two and a half minutes (of which a full 50

     seconds is nothing but movie title graphics and a further 45

     seconds is nothing but aerial scenery), the film manages to cram

     in the following errors:


and lists 18 errors, some major. "The sons of knights did not dress

in rags."  "Edward I was a Christian."  "There is no reason at all to

think that late 13th century Scottish men had 'mullet' haircuts from

the 1980's. There is no reason at all to think they braided their

hair. There is no reason at all to think they tied bits of fur or

feathers in their hair. Further, there is no reason at all to think

they hadn't ever encountered a comb..."


_Braveheart_ (hochkhkhk PTUI) is just another hatchet job by Mel

Gibson, who has a massive hate-on against the English and is willing

to lie through a nine-inch plank to blacken them.  If you're going to

be bigoted and hate the English, at least hate them for things that

they actually did.


Daniel de Lincolia



From: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: 15th century Lowland or Gaelic Scottish Resources for Garb

Posted by: "Sharon L. Krossa" skrossa-yg at medievalScotland.org   slkrossa

Date: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:09 pm (PDT)


At 3:54 PM +0000 9/14/08, Elisabeth Hänsler wrote:

>I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and needs

>help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century Scottish

>garb. Her husband wants to do the kilt thing, so I would guess (I need

>to research it) it means they are Lowland or Gaelic.


For clothing, and other aspects of period

Scotland, you may find my Medieval Scotland web

site useful:




Africa, mka Sharon


Sharon Krossa, PhD - skrossa-yg at MedievalScotland.org

Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:

Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/



Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:50:29 -0600

From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] scottish recipes

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


This tangental to the main question but if you want to get an idea of the

late period political/social/economic interplay between Scotland and England

along their common border take a look at George McDonald Frasier's book

"Steel Bonnets".   Wild west with claymores... lots of cattle, horse and

sheep thieving plus burglary, arson, kidnapping, extortion and murder.

Favorite form of murder was to drown the victim as it was considered

polite to leave a tidy, i.e. unmarked, corpus.  Got to be some food

references in the primary sources as there was quite a bit of "social"

interplay on trucial days.





From: Alexandria Doyle <garbaholic at gmail.com>

Date: June 6, 2010 9:33:25 PM CDT

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Ansteorra] Period sources of Ireland, Scotland and England


There are some interesting period sources, electronically entered that

include "Annals of Scotland" "Descriptions of Ireland" and "The

Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques, and Discoveries of the

English Nation" that I thought some might like to check out.


There are also some classic sources on other pages of this site as well.






From: Anne <orionsdaughter at gmail.com>

Date: January 12, 2011 4:22:57 PM CST

To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com

Subject: {TheTriskeleTavern} Scottish database


and on a different note.....  




Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 07:26:25 -0400

From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] BBC: First Scottish census


Noble friends,


BBC offers an interesting look at Scotland's first census:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/first_census_scotland.shtml . The

Senchus for nAlban was apparently first written in the 7th century and

concerns only the kingdom of Dal Riata in Western Scotland. No questions

about the number of bathrooms here, but rather a sort of muster list for

the king's army/navy.


And speaking of Dal Riata, the Scottish re-enactment group Swords of Dal

Riata does this period (as well as other times). Check their web site

at: http://swordsofdalriada.com/index.html .


Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot



Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 08:33:24 -0400

From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] Declaration of Arbroath


Finally I get to write about a Scottish anniversary! Today is the 691st

anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath. This document, a letter

to Pope John XXII, was sealed by various Scottish nobles on 6 April 1320

(actually, it was probably sealed by most after that date). It affirmed

Scottish independence from England and self-sovereignty. The text

contains the stirring passage (in modern translation) " ...for, as long

as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be

brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches,

nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom ? for that alone,

which no honest man gives up but with life itself." You can read about

the Declaration of Arbroath at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath .


Today is also Tartan Day throughout Scotland, the US, Canada, and

Argentina.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartan_day . I remembered to

put up my Saltire flag this morning, but never even considered wearing

one of my kilts to work. (Sigh!) Next year for sure!


Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot



Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:39:44 -0400

From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] BBC: Restored Stirling Palace


Today BBC is featuring a slide show tour of the restored Stirling Royal

Palace: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-13527714 .


The recreation is stunning! Scotland was not all hovels and drafty

castles. Its later rulers hosted a vibrant Renaissance court where arts

and learning were greatly encouraged. The views of the Hunt for the

Unicorn tapestry, which apparently features contemporary costumes, and

the clothes of the reenactor/tour guide are definitely worth seeing.


Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot

(aka Garth Groff, whose real Napier ancestors sometimes served in this




Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 07:20:10 -0400

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] Digitized Scottish Book


My favorite kilt store, Celtic Croft, posted a link on their news page

to a digitized book called THE BOOK OF THE CLUB OF TRUE HIGHLANDERS

complied by Charles Niven McIntyre in 1881:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/club/index.htm . Much of it

seems to be out of period, or typical Victorian romantic drivel. Quite a

bit is Irish or Britanic, and has nothing to do with Scotland (including

a horny helmet; yes, it says this was actually found in the Thames, so

somebody must have actually worn these things). However, there are some

gems among these pages which might be useful to anyone interested in a

Scottish or Irish persona. Among the images of possible interest are

weaponry, household items, brooches, harps and other musical

instruments, and some sheet music. Reading the text might take a while,

but you can view the 100 or so pages of each volume via thumnails, and

thus select whatever pages which might seem of interest.


Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot



Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:58:22 -0500

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] Stirling Heads in Full Colour


At last! All 37 of the reproduction Stirling Heads are available as full

colour images on line. These heads are bas relief carvings in oak,

brilliantly painted. Many depict Scottish courtiers from the early 16th

century, with some mythological figures and Roman emperors (one seems to

be in Scottish dress) thrown in.  These are a great source for clothing

of the Scottish court.




The original heads were bosses which decorated the palace ceilings. How

many of the heads originally adorned the palace is not known. The

survivors were badly cracked, and their paint had mostly flaked away.

Now all have been duplicated, including two lost to a fire and known

only from drawings.


Other sections of the Stirling Castle web site are sure to be

inspirational to Scadians, including the section on court life which

features photographs and video clips of the costumed re-enactors who

portray various historical figures:



This web site is a wonderful resource you could spend hours exploring.

Have fun.


Lord Mungo Napier, Whose Real Napier Ancestors Were Courtiers To

Scottish Royalty



Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 08:00:23 -0400

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] Scottish Independence


On this day in 1328, the English Parliament ratified the Treaty of

Edinburgh-Northampton, recognizing Scottish independence and ending 32

years of war. King Robert the Bruce signed for the Scots. Envoys acting

under the English Regent and dowager Queen Isabella signed for England.

Alas, this was short-lived. The English monarch, Edward III, was a

underaged king, but when he came into his full power Edward abrogated

the treaty and resumed war against the Scots in 1333. Scotland's full

independence had to be won again, and was finally recognized in 1357.


You can read a short Wikipedia article about the treaty at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Edinburgh-Northampton and about

the First Scottish War of Independence at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_War_of_Scottish_Independence .


On a more sour note, 1 May is also the day in 1707 when the Scottish

Parliament voted for the "Union of the Flags" with England, and thus

gave up their hard-won independence. Since 1603, Scotland and England

had shared monarchs, but the two countries were separate states, and

often at odds with each other. In particular, Scotland was frozen out of

trade with England and her colonies, and many wealthy Scottish merchants

pushed for the otherwise very unpopular union. England pushed for the

union in fear that Scotland would invite the Stewarts back when the

childless Queen Anne died.


Sorry to bring this up, since it is out of our period, but the dates are

an interesting historical oddity. If you're curious, here a Wikipedia

article about that too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707 .


And now it starts all over again as Scotland prepares for an

independence referendum in 2014.


Lord Mungo Napier, Both Proud and Ashamed Today



Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 07:19:49 -0400

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: isenfir at virginia.edu, atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: [MR] The Auld Alliance


Noble Friends, Especially Scots,


This day in 1295 was the beginning of "The Auld Alliance", a military

relationship between Scotland and France, that was to bring few

benefits, and many hardships, to the Scots.


The Auld Alliance began with a treaty between the Scottish king John

Balliol and Philip IV of France against Edward I of England. Edward had

placed Balliol on the Scottish throne, and considered him a vassal. For

this treason, Balliol was stripped of his heraldic arms by Edward and

sent into house arrest in English-held France. Edward began his conquest

of Scotland, opposed by Sir William Wallace and later by self-proclaimed

King of the Scots Robert the Bruce.


The Alliance continued to be invoked by Scotland or France, often at the

request of the French as a diversionary tactic during the Hundred Years

War. The result was usually a crushing defeat for the Scots at the hands

of the English. After the massacre of its best army at Agincourt in

1415, the French relied on a hired Scottish army fighting for them in

France itself until they could slowly rebuild their forces. Only

occasionally did the French send help to Scotland. Some French troops

were provided James IV in 1513 when he invaded England, again at the

request of the French who were fighting against Henry VIII. James, the

best of the Stuarts, was killed in battle at Flodden along with all the

French (mostly massacred by the angry Scots).


Within Scotland itself, the Alliance was divisive, and frequently

resulted in "assured Scots" (Scots in the pay of the English) rising

against the pro-French factions.


Even after the Union of the Flags in 1707, when Scotland was officially

joined to England to form Great Britain, France continued to meddle in

Scottish affairs. The Jacobite risings were partially bankrolled by

France, and even some troops were sent to assist Bonnie Prince Charlie's

army in 1745/46.


You can read more about The Auld Alliance at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance .


Lord Mungo Napier, Who Thinks the Alliance Was a Crock for the Scots



Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:34:35 -0400

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] Stirling Castle siege


Today was a black day in Scottish history. On 20 July 1304 Stirling

Castle surrendered, the last stronghold of resistance to King Edward I's

conquest. For four months Edward's siege engines threw murderous weapons

into the castle. Finally he had a giant engine built, The War Wolf. When

the Scots offered to surrender, Edward stubbornly used the monster

anyway so he could show it off to his queen and her ladies. With the

castle walls breached, the Scots again offered to surrender, and were

taken prisoner by the English.


I am very proud to say the 30 Scots survivors included at least one of

my real-life ancestors, John de Napier of Kilmahew. He was fined three

years rent from his estates and eventually released by Edward.


Edward soon had more trouble when Robert the Bruce had himself crowned

King of the Scots and raised the flag of rebellion again in late 1305.

The Bruce eventually chased the English out of Scotland and secured the

country's independence.


Here's a brief Wikipedia page on the siege:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Stirling_Castle . There's more

about Stirling Castle at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Castle .

The official castle web site, including some great video clips, is at:

http://www.stirlingcastle.gov.uk/ .


Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot



Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:34:10 -0400

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] Lost Medieval Scottish  Gardens Revealed


Noble Friends, and Especially Fellow Scots,


This BBC article discusses a pending book on lost Scottish gardens:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-19434712 .

Included are gardens "reconstructed" from spy maps Henry VIII had drawn

during the "Rough Wooing", an invasion designed to force the Scots to

marry off the infant Mary (as in "Queen of Scots") to his son Edward.

This new book, SCOTLAND'S LOST GARDENS, looks like a very interesting

look at history. Sadly, the book is not on OCLC yet.


Although it isn't period, the story about the bottom of the page "What

Britain Used to Look Like from the Air" is a fascinating serious of

historical aerial photos from England, presented as a slide show with

commentary. It is really delightful.


Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot



Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:04:36 -0400

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: [MR] Wikipedia: The Auld Alliance, Scotland & France


This day in 1295, the Scots signed a major treaty with the French

without consent of their King John Balloil. Called the Auld Alliance,

the treaty called for mutual defense should the English attack either

Scotland or France. This got the very weak Balloil in a lot of trouble

with the English King Edward I, who had put Balloil on the Scottish

throne and considered him to be a vassal (he was also Edward's

brother-in-law). Edward immediately invaded Scotland, kicking off the

Scottish Wars of Independence. In 1296 Balloil abdicated, was publicly

stripped of his regalia by Edward, and eventually exiled to his estates

in France.


The Auld Alliance continued to be a torn in the sides of all three

countries. The Scots frequently raided into England in support of the

French, usually dying in large numbers before superior English armies.

During the Hundred Years War, the Scots sent many troops to the French

after their main battle army was destroyed at Agincourt in 1415. Few

returned alive. Scottish King James IV invaded England again at the

behest of the French in 1513, and he and Scotland's best knights were

wiped out  at the Battle of Flodden.


The French occasionally sent small groups of soldiers to Scotland. The

French often took whatever they wanted from the impoverished Scots, and

were soundly hated. At Flodden, the angry Scottish survivors massacred

their French advisors.


Here is a brief piece on the Auld Alliance:



You can read about John Balliol here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Balliol .


Lord Mungo Napier, Who Has Nothing Against the French



Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:51:13 -0400

From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu

Subject: Re: [MR] Wikipedia: The Auld Alliance, Scotland & France


Oops! Balliol was not Edward's brother-in-law. That was John Comyn.

Balliol, however, was also a brother-in-law of Comyn.


Lord Mungo



Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:24:27 +0000

From: "Groff, Garth (ggg9y)" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: "atlantia at atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>,

        "isenfir at atlantia.scalists.org" <isenfir at atlantia.scalists.org>

Subject: [MR] Striling Castle


On 20 July 1304 Stirling Castle surrendered, the last major Scottish stronghold held against Edward I of England. At that point there were but 37 starved men left (some sources say 50 or 30) of the original 200: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieges_of_Stirling_Castle .  Edward ordered most of the garrison back into the castle so he could test out Warwolf, his giant trebuchet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warwolf . After pounding the castle for several more days, he took the garrison captive and packed them off to prison.


I am proud to say that John le Nae Peer (probably Sir John Napier), one of my direct ancestors, was among the surviving defenders of Stirling. He was imprisoned in Carlisle by Edward, and only freed when he has forfeited three years income of his lands.


Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge



Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:31:44 +0000

From: "Groff, Garth (ggg9y)" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: "Merry Rose (atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org)"

        <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>, "Shire of Isenfir

        (isenfir at atlantia.scalists.org)" <isenfir at atlantia.scalists.org>

Subject: [MR] BBC: The Stuarts of Scotland


Noble Friends, Especially Fellow Scots.


BBC Scotland is currently airing a series on the history of the House of Stuart, the family which ruled Scotland for over 300 years, and also ruled England concurrently for over 100, providing a total of 15 kings and queens. Sadly, the program is not available here in the U.S., but the Beeb did give us a nice summary story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/25870789 .


And were the Stuarts a success? In Scotland, at least, they were terrible, but maybe no more so than most of the other Scottish monarchs. They frequently knocked off their rivals (and sometimes friends they felt were a threat), were caught in factional internal wars, and generally bungled the frequent wars with England. Two of them were murdered by their own people. However, the Stuarts were arguably dealt a poor hand. Scotland was a poor country with few exports or resources, frequently bullied by their neighbor to the south, plagued by powerful earls who constantly scrapped with each other or the crown, and the early deaths of several Stuart kings left Scotland in the hands of rapacious regents who ruled until the rightful child sovereign grew up (sometimes having the regent executed). And then there was that pesky treaty with France, The Auld Alliance (which predated the Stuarts). This mutual defense pact repeatedly drew the Scots into the almost unceasing wars between Fra

nce and England, with the Scots almost always being the biggest losers.


Arguably, the best of the Stuarts was James IV, who kept a somewhat uneasy truce with Henry VII and Henry VIII, even marrying princess Margaret Tudor (the key to the Stuarts later inheriting the English throne). Under James, Scotland flowered intellectually, became a center of renaissance culture, the earls were largely tamed, a fine navy was built, and Scotland became a respected (if secondary) European power. Sadly, that Auld Alliance once more drew the Scots into conflict, and in 1513 James and most of the Scottish nobles died tragically at the Battle of Flodden. James was a far better king than he was a general.


The James are shown in order at the head of the story. James I is on the left. My favorite, James IV is near the middle (with the soft bonnet), and James VI & I (of England) is at far right. James I and James III were killed by the Scots themselves. James II (James of the Firey Face, due to a large birthmark) was blown up by one of his own guns. James V was probably dying of natural causes, but turned to wall and with his last breath lamented the birth of this only child, a daughter (Mary Queen of Scots). James VI & I hated Scotland, and couldn't wait to get his butt on the English throne.


There's more on the Stuart line at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stuart for those who might be curious.


By the way, the Stuarts are still around. Duke Francis of Bavaria is the current senior member. He has no comment on Scottish independence.


Lord Mungo Napier (whose real ancestors were frequently in the Stuarts' service)



Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 05:32:20 -0400

From: Garth Groff via Atlantia <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

To: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: [MR] Scotland's Independence Vote


Noble Friends, Especially Fellow Scots,


It can hardly have escaped anybody's attention that Scotland is moving

toward a vote on whether to became independent of Great Britain. In the

last month, a comfortable lead by the "No" camp has evaporated, and on

the eve of the election, polls show the two sides running neck and neck.

The actual vote will take place tomorrow, with the results possibly

known by Friday. Many people have already voted by mail.


Why is this important to us as re-enactors? This is history. Period. And

it is the results of past history. The uneasy relationship between

Scotland and England goes way back into the dark ages, but it burst into

flames in the 1290s when Edward I was asked to decide the contested

succession of Scotland. Edward had already conquered Wales, and was

planning to take Scotland as well. The opportunity to put a puppet king

on the Scottish throne, John Balliol, was almost a gift. It was a gift

with thorns like the Scottish thistle, and ignited years of open warfare

between the two countries.


Scotland remained an independent country with a separate parliament

after 1603 when James VI of Scotland was crowned as James I of England.

Despite sharing a king, they two countries remained at loggerheads on

many issues. The Catholic James II (and VII of Scotland) was chased into

exile in 1688, and both countries were ruled the the last two female

(and Protestant) Queens. In 1707, Queen Anne was clearly dying, and

after 17 pregnancies, she had not produced an heir that survived to

adulthood. There was great fear in England that the Scottish parliament

would invite the Catholic Stuart pretender James VIII back from France.

England opened negotiations for a full union of the two countries.


Sadly for the Scots, the country and many of their leaders in parliament

were bankrupt after the Darien Affair, and attempt to set up a colony in

what is now Panama (without Spanish permission). England again saw an

opportunity, and bagmen bearing lots of money bought the votes of the

key cash-strapped Scottish lords, and they sold out their independence

for personal gain. The vote was very unpopular in Scotland, and led to

three major uprisings in support of the Stuarts, all crushed by English

(and some Scottish) troops.


The point of all this is that the independence vote is a result of

actions that began many, many years ago and have continued to play

themselves out through history. Yes, there are other causes here too,

but many Scots still smart from the old injuries. History isn't

something that was over in the past. It goes on and on, and actions

today that will be "history" next year will continue to play themselves

out for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.


Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot



Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:03:03 -0400

From: Grazia Morgano via Atlantia <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

To: Garth Groff <sarahsan at embarqmail.com>,        Garth Groff via Atlantia

        <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>,      Merry Rose

        <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Scotland's Independence Vote


I think a fun thing to note about the Scottish parliament selling out their country is that when they gathered to sign the treaty, they were chased off by an angry mob. Everywhere they tried to gather, the mob followed. Finally, they each feigned being tired and going home. The mob did not post guards. Each slipped out again and went to sign the treaty then run for London. They weren't waiting to see the mob in the morning.


(Citation: "How the Scots invented the modern world" pg 53)


Grazia Morgano


<the end>

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