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veils-msg - 1/31/12

Use of veils in period.

NOTE: See also the files: headgear-msg, snoods-cauls-msg, gloves-msg, jewelry-msg, coronets-msg, belts-msg, beads-msg, netting-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: habura at bcbp18.bio.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: How to wear veils?

Date: 17 Mar 1995 16:31:51 GMT

Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY

How to fasten a veil depends a lot on what period you're trying to emulate,

what class you're trying to emulate, and the exact composition of the veil

and any other head superstructure.

Have I scared you off yet? :)

I'll go from easy to hard.

If you are wearing a wimple, keeping your veil on is child's play. Put on

your wimple, pinning it firmly to your hair. Pin the veil to the wimple.

The pins and the friction of fabric against fabric will keep your veil on

in all but high winds. This style is appropriate for about 11-13th c.

Anglo-Norman, all classes, and through the 14th c. if you are not trying

for an avant-garde look.

If you are wearing any form of sturdy understructure on your head (a 15th c.

heart-shaped padded headdress, for example), pin the veil to that.

If you are wearing the 14th c. style of a double-peaked (wire? I think so,

but I need to hunt down that bibliographic citation from _Textiles and

Clothing_ to be sure) framework with a veil over it, the veil can be pinned

to itself. Also, the sources I have imply that the veil was sewn to the

wire framework, but I need to get that other book through ILL to be sure.

If you are going for a 14th or 15th c. lower-class look, loosely knot the

veil behind your head into a sort of drapey cap. Check out some of the female

peasants in the _Tres Riches Heurs_ for examples.

If you are looking for 14th c. avant-garde (no wimple), which is the style

I usually wear, the solution I've found is to wear a small cap pinned to

the hair (there are a few examples of illustrations of women ready for bed,

who are wearing nothing *but* such a cap), and pinning the veil to that.

Be sure to carefully dig the pin ends into the cap, especially if you have

a husband who likes kissing you on top of the head :).

Or, you could give up entirely and wear some other headgear appropriate to

your time period. I generally wear a hood when camping or when in high

winds, because it's much easier to handle and is equally appropriate for

the clothing I wear.

Alison MacDermot

*Ex Ungue Leonem*

From: rousseaua at immunex.wa.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: How to wear veils?

Date: 17 Mar 95 16:38:09 PST

Organization: Immunex Corporation, Seattle, WA

kjwegner at mtu.edu (Kimberly) writes:

> Ok.... I have a veil. I just can't figure out how to keep it from

> slipping off of the back of my head. I remember a thread a few months ago

> that went over this but I didn't know how to save it then. Could any of

> you be able to post hints (or full fledged directions) on how to solve

> this little problem of mine? Thank you VERY much.

> Kimberly/Cyneburh

Hello from Anne-Marie in An Tir.

Cyneburh asks how to keep a veil on...Mistress Hilary of Serendip gave me this

one.

Fasten a band of "toothy" fabric, like a heavy twill cut on the bias aorund

your head, like a hair band. Use hair pins to keep it in place. Fix your veil

to the band, and it won't slip.

Good luck! I wish we were all better about head coverings...

--Anne-Marie d'Ailleurs

From: sniderm at mcmail2.cis.McMaster.CA (Mike Snider)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: How to wear veils?

Date: 22 Mar 1995 11:40:17 -0500

Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

I too have had endless trouble with veils in the past and have switched

to wimples. Before you resign yourself to duct tape however, try

gathering your hair, or a portion of your hair, high on your head and

braiding it. Sew a comb into the veil and fix it firmly down into the

hair just before the braid. This will prevent the backwards slipping that

is so annoying. I also find hair pieces work well for many time periods.

The false piece can be tyed into the hair very firmly and sprayed in

place, then the veil can be sewn or pinned to this. It has worked for me.

As your personna is so early, you might want to try a soft leather of

fabric fillet, rather than a circlet. Many soft fillets had decrative

metal mounts and were quite spiffy.

If you find something else that works, please post back. I am always

looking for better ways of keeping discreet!

Elizabeth Cadfan or Kestrell the Demure to my friends.

From: iys6lri at mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: How to wear veils?

Date: 22 Mar 1995 21:54:43 GMT

Organization: ucla

sniderm at mcmail2.cis.McMaster.CA (Mike Snider) says:

>...Before you resign yourself to duct tape however...

> Elizabeth Cadfan or Kestrell the Demure to my friends.

Alexis here, to correct an apparent misunderstanding!

When I mentioned that I have fastened my wimple/barbette with duct

tape, I *didn't* mean that I have taped them to my head!! I meant that

in the absence of pins I have used duct tape to hold the ends of the

wimple/barbette together; i.e., overlapping the ends and securing the

overlap with duct tape. I *cringe* at the thought of taping my wimple

to my hair, and the thought of someone taping his cup to his ...er...

naughty bits is just...awful.

Alexis Vladescu Lori Iversen

WyvernHo-ette (IYS6LRI at mvs.oac.ucla.edu)

Altavia, CAID The Valley, CA

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ojid.wbst845 at xerox.com (Orilee Ireland-Delfs)

Subject: Re: How to wear veils?

Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY

Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:08:29 GMT

For keeping my veil where it belongs, I personally prefer the

barbette - the band of cloth that runs from under your chin to

the top of your head. And you don't need to duct tape it : )

If you find pinning the barbette and veil in place to be too

fussy, try sewing the barbetter together at the top of your head

so it fits snug. Then, position the veil exactly where you want it

and pin it in place. Then, remove the two pieces still pinned

together and put a few stitches in where the pins are. This will

keep veil and barbette attached together at all times and makes

it easy to just put the whole thing on in one step.

And, your veil will stay in place! (You can put the stitches in

about where your circlet falls and that way they won't show.)

Orianna

AEthelmearc, East

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:29:24 -0600

From: rockwallshire at webtv.net (Shared Account)

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: FW: 12 - 13th Head gear or head wear

Unto Merouda comes greetings from Merouda. :)

In reply to your query regarding headbands with ribbons being

appropriate for the 12-13th centuries, I would say that you may want to

stay away from that. I won't say nobody ever did that in those

centuries, but I can't find any examples of it in that time frame in my

costume and illumination library. :)

Secondly, although fashion in period changed far more slowly than does

modern fashion, there is a definate difference between the clothing of

the Normans and the clothing of the court of Edward I.

I took the liberty of scanning thru my references for a style that was

used for a majority of that time. Based on your name (Merouda is a

Cornish name, as I suspect you know, but which may not be known by

others on this list), I searched primarily through English examples, as

Cornwall had been pretty much brought under English control by that

time.

For a great deal of this time, the veil was typically worn with some

sort of anchoring device. The devices I'm thinking of have various

names, but they all boil down to some sort of circlet; perhaps the thin

metal band we usually think of when hearing "circlet", or perhaps the

wide, stiff, standing cloth band of 2-3 inches height I usually think of

when envisioning someone wearing a barbette.

Considering how close 12th night is, and the wide time period you are

considering for your persona, AND the fact that a major holiday is

falling into this short span of time, may I make a suggestion?

At the fabric store, find a lightweight, woven, white, non-slick

material to make a (period) veil, and then trot over to the bridal

section. There you should find a section for making bridal veils which,

naturally enough, will contain forms for making your hat (gotta anchor

all that frufru to something, yes?). One of the most typical of hat

forms (or whatever you might call those buckram & wire thingies used to

mount frufru on your head ;) is a circular band of about 1 inch height.

If you cover this with a piece of the material of your choice, you'll

have a "plain vanilla" circlet. This arrangement will allow you to have

head covering that is at least similar to something that would have been

worn thru the 12th & 13th centuries, without nailing it down to a

specific time and place (as much as a hat of that period can be said to

do). It will also make your bangs less noticable. Furthermore, this head

covering may still be useful to you after you have done good research

and have a better idea of your place and time. :)

Your Servant, now and evermore,

Merouda Pendray, writing thru the Rockwall account. :)

From: Margo Anderson <wander at directcon.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Securing veils (Was:First experiences)

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:27:59 -0800

Organization: Global Valley Internet, Sacramento

I. Marc Carlson wrote:

> Take a 1" band of cloth and wrap it around your head like a head band.

> Then make a band that wraps around under your chin and over the top of

> your head (this is called a "barbette". Pin those together at the temples

> (or where ever they cross). You then pin the veil to that.

You can also just use the band of cloth around your head, without the

chinstrap, if you don't want that look. Then you can hav one of those

wondrous draped veils that don't have a circlet on top. It does help

keep it on if the band is strectchy, which I discovered by accident

when, in an emergency, I was forced to use a leg from a pair of

pantyhose.

BTW, I've found that pantyhose make an excellent foundation for all

kinds of headresses, if you put them on your head with the elastic

around your hairline they keep the wisps of hair from escaping. Wrap the

legs around your head turban style and your have a tight, secure base

you can pin into.

Of course I know this isn't period! It is, however, a good substitute

for having lots of long hair to attach to.

Margo Anderson

"One Tough Costumer"

Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 14:09:42 -0700

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Non-Europeans (mostly, but not completely, OT)

At 04:31 PM 5/8/02 -0400, you wrote:

>> I chose to be Near (not Middle) Eastern and i live in Europe (Cordova

>> in southern Spain). I chose my time and place because women didn't

>> have to wear veils (and European women do most of the time),

>*blink* where did this come from? European women are depicted wearing

>headgear a lot, but not necessarily veils. Am I misunderstanding what you

>mean by a veil?

>-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

There certainly are different ideals of 'veils' depending on where you are,

in time and place. To someone in Islamic lands, a veil frequently means

that part if not all of the face is covered. And hair is always covered.

OTOH, I know of no western European culture that covers the face. Covering

the hair, yes, and sometime the neck (usually called a wimple). But not the

face.

Sooo, Anahita, what _did_ you mean by veils?

'Lainie

To: Recipients of SCA-GARB digests <SCA-GARB at LIST.UVM.EDU>

Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 00:10:26 -0600

From: Sheridan & Shane <shooie at SPRINT.CA>

Subject: Interesting Detail

Possibly a secret revealed?

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/w/weyden/rogier/05sevens/2sevens3.jpg

If you look closely at both of the ladies in this picture you see a tightly

wound piece of fabric, or perhaps a very close fitting cap *underneath* the

nifty ruffled head cloth you see in so many of the paintings of this period

(1445-50 is the date of this particular one)

To me, this would make sense. A firm foundation to pin your veil to, to keep

it sliding around...

Thoughts anyone?

Maiwen

To: Recipients of SCA-GARB digests <SCA-GARB at LIST.UVM.EDU>

Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:49:30 -0400

From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at THIBAULT.ORG>

Subject: Re: Interesting Detail

Maiwen said:

<<< see a tightly wound piece of fabric, or perhaps a very close fitting cap >>>

I'd think it is wound/bound fabric, based on the stress wrinkles, rather

than a cap. It could be a very thin version of the white strip-linen

turban headdress that middle class women wear about this time -- known

technology and all that.

Cynthia Virtue and/or

Cynthia du Pré Argent

From: Lisa <ladyemp at sbcglobal.net>

Date: January 26, 2007 4:07:13 PM CST

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT (maybe?): Veil/Vail?

Here's a good site regarding wearing a veil, I hope it may be of use

to you.

http://www.virtue.to/articles/veils.html

Elizabeta of Rundel

----- Original Message -----

From: "Chelsea Williams" <baby_sis_83 at hotmail.com>

> I need some help. My lord and I are getting married March 17th, and I desire

> to have the circle veil/vail (sp?) as we have in the Society, the type held

> on with some kind of head piece be it a circlet or a crown. I don't know

> what period it's from, or ANYTHING about the veils. Can someone send me

> reference pictures so I can send them to my fiance's grandmother so she'll

> know what I'm talking about so she can make it? Thanks!

> -Lady Grainne Kathleen NicPadraig MacDaniel

From: "Elisabeth B. Zakes" <kitharis at gmail.com>

Date: January 25, 2007 7:04:17 AM CST

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT (maybe?): Veil/Vail?

On 1/25/07, Chelsea Williams <baby_sis_83 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I need some help. My lord and I are getting married March 17th, and I desire

> to have the circle veil/vail (sp?) as we have in the Society, the type held

> on with some kind of head piece be it a circlet or a crown. I don't know

> what period it's from, or ANYTHING about the veils. Can someone send me

> reference pictures so I can send them to my fiance's grandmother so

> she'll know what I'm talking about so she can make it? Thanks!

> -Lady Grainne Kathleen NicPadraig MacDaniel

It all depends on what period of dress you're looking for. Veils were worn

in many different ways as fashion changed over the centuries. Look through a

good costume history book or talk with your local costume expert and see

what you like and what suits the look you want for the day. It sounds like

you're looking for a type common in the 1300s, but even then, styles did

change a bit over time, and could vary according to country.

Aethelyan Moondragon

Bryn Gwlad

Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:32:49 +1000

From: Zebee Johnstone <zebeej at gmail.com>

Subject: [Lochac] veil geeks: thesis abstract

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

http://m-silkwork.blogspot.com/2009/05/abstract.html

Absolutely only of interest to those interested in veils to an extent

more than is good for them.

Just the abstract, the thesis will apparently be published later this year.

Zebee

From: "emma at huskers.unl.edu" <emma at HUSKERS.UNL.EDU>

Date: May 27, 2011 12:56:33 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Veils, Turbans, and Headrails, Oh My!

<<< This is the first time I remember hearing any controversy about square vs. round or oval veils. >>>

I wouldn't call it a controversy, just a shifting of opinions.

It's only relatively recently (within the last handful of decades) that costume history has really been treated as an academic subject. So we all have a lot of old assumptions to reevaluate.

Personally, I'm remembering illustrations of women in veils which "read" as round or oval veils, but I'll admit I hadn't previously reconsidered the preexisting common knowledge that medieval veils were round. If I wanted to make a stronger argument one way or the other, I'd do a visual survey of veils that look rounded and examine for specific clues: either clearly curved edges (as opposed to just curved folds) or corners. Ideally, this would be augmented by experimentation with square and round examples, trying to duplicate the look as depicted (bearing in mind that artistic representations aren't always depictions of reality).

Jane, wearer of oval veils, and a laurel who is sometimes wrong.

From: otsisto <otsisto at SOCKET.NET>

Date: May 27, 2011 4:37:04 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Veils, Turbans, and Headrails, Oh My!

This one is debatable but leans towards oval. Sassetta (Italian).

http://tinyurl.com/42szo9y

This one appears to be a half circle but may be rectangle.

http://tinyurl.com/3b2sd2r

Of coarse for the non veil(?), This may have a silk wrap around the bun.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pisanello_016.jpg

This actually has a veil that is possibly an elongated oval.