headgear-msg - 5/14/10
Hats, veils and other headgear.
NOTE: See also the files: turbans-msg, fashion-msg, shoes-msg, raingear-msg, feathers-msg, gloves-msg, umbrellas-msg, veils-msg, snoods-cauls-msg.
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Awards
Keywords: Includes the headgear question!
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 16:53:38 GMT
nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>Your general points are well-taken, however, and I agree. Now to the
>important question: what about the hats?
>
>Everyone in the Middle Ages except kids wore hats all the time. In
>fact, it is only slightly inaccurate to say that everyone except kids
>wore hats all the time until the mid-20th century. Hats were as much
>a part of fashion as coats and jewellery. They denoted one's trade,
>or one's social standing; they were part of one's clothing. Like
>being in the Army, you just didn't go outside without the proper headgear.
>
>Scadians are seeking to portray mediaeval and Renaissance upper-class
>people. What sort of hats do they wear?
Greetings from Lothar,
I disagree. I have looked at dozens and hundreds of
illuminations, pictures and medieval artifacts that portray people in
the civilian dress of various periods and my observation is that you
can't generalize. All through the Early Christian, Migration and
Carolingian Eras you don't see many people with hats on, although you
see an occasional crown, the women are inevitably veiled and many of the
soldiers are wearing helmets. Don't think that it is due to stylized
iconography either: some of the late antique, Byzantine and Carolingian
illuminations are more "naturalistic" than anything you'll see until the
15th c. This doesn't mean that people of this era NEVER wore hats, but
they weren't a required part of the local costume.
Representations of Early Scandinavians and later Germanic people
show men bare-headed (although you see a lot of helmets or phyrgian
caps) most of the time.
In the 11th and 12th c. it is very unusual to see a man wearing
a hat, though the women, unless they are very young or representing some
virtue, inevitably have some sort of headress on. In the late 12th and
early 13th c. little white coifs became common for men, but were by no
means an obligatory part of the fashion.
I could continue, but suffice it to say that in EVERY culture
I have looked at (except maybe Jewish culture) hats were an optional
accessory for men which were more or less common (I doubt that the well
dressed 15th c. Flemish gentleman would feel comfortable outside of his
house without some sort of hat) while most women wore something that was
more or less a derivative of a veil. Don't argue it, just start looking
through art history books and you'll see my point.
Now, I agree that the SCA does a particularly bad job on
recreating hats. This is partly due to laziness, but I think that most
hats that were worn in the Middle Ages and Renaissance just don't look
attractive to modern people. I have jokingly referred to the later
Middle Ages and the Renaissance as the "Age of Ugly Hats". Women's
headgear beyond the simple veil is hard to get right and is a bitch to
wear. I pity a woman in a steeple hennin in a high wind or a low hall.
Other factors are that hats are HOT and since they were
"optional" many people ignore them to concentrate on their costume.
>There's the broad-brimmed hat, worn out-of-doors to keep the sun off
>the neck.
Fashionable? Rarely. Matching the clothing? Not usually.
If you mean the felt "cavalier" hat, I agree. Mostly OOP. If you
mean the straw hats, I can show you documentation of the straw hat being
used from Ancient Greece to the 16th c. with a lapse during the Imperial
Roman period. It was never fashionable, but it was always worn by
travellers and people out in the sun. There is a Flemish altar piece
that has St. Maurice in full Gothic plate armor wearing.... a simple
straw hat that is virtually identical to the ones the peasants are
wearing in the illuminations to the Tres Riche Heures 30 years before.
I wear an "Amish" style straw hat to summer events. It looks OOP
but I can document it to the 15th c. although it is probably an
anachronism with a cotehardie.
>What about the great Scadian national headgear? The veil with the
>circlet over top? Well by gosh you can wear that with any sort of
>clothing, any time period, day wear or evening wear, court garb or
>field garb, and why? Was it a commonly-worn head covering throughout
>the ages?
Well, if you consider that very few women were high nobles who
could afford crowns it was NEVER a common head covering. Once again, the
veil appears in some form or another from Ancient Greece, through Roman
times (albeit for Vestal virgins) and on into the late Middle Ages. It
was pretty well discarded by women of the upper ranks in the late 15th
and 16th c. but it persisted into the 17th c. among the lower classes in
some form or another.
Using a crown or metal circlet to hold your veil or head-dress
on is very period. If you look hard enough you can find example of it.
There is a 15th c. ms. illumination of Cretien de Troyes presenting a
copy of "Citie des Dames" to her patron, who is a duchess. Her Grace is
wearing a modified crown over a bicornate hennin!
>Does anybody know what the headgear of an English baron was before
>1600? A prize to anyone who can tell me. It wasn't a coronet.
His hair. The Bayeux tapestry only has crowns being worn by
kings on state occasions. Even William and Harold appear without crowns
in the battle scenes.
Failing that, on high state occasions, English barons tended to
wear caps of maintenance (red with ermine trim) on high state occasions.
They also wore matching robes. These outfits never seem to have been
worn otherwise. Otherwise, they wore whatever headgear was fashionable
at the time, and displayed their wealth in other ways. (This is based on
15th c. mss. illuminations. I doubt that it is accurate prior to 1400.)
In the 14th c. they might have worn gowns with their arms
embroidered on them, but without a cap. Once again, this was ceremonial
costume, never worn otherwise.
>It has recently become fashionable for companions of the Laurel to
>wear metal wreaths of laurels around their heads. Very Scadian.
Very Italianate. There are 15th and 16th c. paintings of victorious
generals and popes wearing a crown of laurel, and I wouldn't put it past
baroque craftsmen to guild the damned things. Admittedly this was a
ceremonial headgear. It wasn't worn every day. But crowning someone with
a wreath of laurels at a laureling ceremony would not be totally out of
line with period customs.
>So why aren't people encouraged to wear hats?
1) Extra Effort to make.
2) Different skills required
3) Bitch to find decent hat felt for some styles
4) Hot
5) Inconvenient to wear
6) Inconsistant with modern notions of fashion, or just
butt-ugly
>And that is how the award system has kicked the hell out of authentic
>headgear.
Authentic headgear hasn't really taken off. Neither has really
authentic costume. Do you know what your persona's underwear, hosen,
doublet and shoes looked like? Do you have them made? (For the record I
would have to answer Yes to the first and no to the second).
>And don't you go blaming Erroll Flynn, either. Robin Hood knew enough not to
>go out without a hat on...
But Maid Marian, the Evil Sheriff, Will Scarlet and Friar Tuck
didn't.... :)
Lothar
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Subject: Re: Awards
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 00:40:40 GMT
Summary: Look kids! easy women's hats.....
Keywords: Includes the headgear question!
Greetings....
Let's put an end to this idea that women's hats from the Middle
Ages and Renaissance are both hard to do and ugly.
First, there is the veil and wimple combination. Almost as
easy as the veil alone, and seen in illuminations through the fourteenth
century.
Second, there is the hairnet, chinstrap/coif/wimple and linen
band or crespinette combination. Easy to make, nifty to wear, and
perfect for the second half of the thirteenth century into the fourteenth.
Third, for you later period types, are the variety of simple small
hats seen in the Italian Renaissance period. Once again, elegant, easy
to make, and even quite comfortale on a hot day.
For 16th century types, there are a wide variety of easy hats one
can make, from a simple linen coif (embroider it in blackwork! Impress your
firiends!) to flat hats, to the "biggens", a cap which can be made in either
velvet or simple linen, depending on the class of the wearer. People
who wear French hoods tell me they aren't bad, either, once you get
the hang of them.
I am noticibly skipping the hennins and huge horned things which
one sees in the last half of the fourteeth and the fifteenth centuriees,
but they can be done well (and when they are....WOW!). The ubiquitous
"padded roll", sometimes shaped by wire, is an OK compromise.
Hats make the outfit, take it from "nice" to "oooooh!"
Regards
Nicolaa de Bracton of Leicester
sclark at epas.utoroto.ca
SusanCarroll-Clark
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Awards
Keywords: Includes the headgear question!
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 18:14:53 GMT
In article <1993Jul8.202536.3368 at epas.toronto.edu> nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>
>All right, so males in the Byzantine and Carolingian empires didn't
>wear hats outdoors? Fine. All those Byzantine and Carolingian folks
>are off the hook. And all those Phrygian caps on those Greeks and
>Franks are an optical illusion. But what about the rest of the Middle
>Ages?
But it wasn't universal. And, you never see a clerical figure with a hat
on in the iconography, presumably the better to see their tonsures.
>What about women?
Pretty much universally veiled unless they are representing some sort of
allegorical figure, though some women are depicted as bare-headed with
their hair up in some early Christian period mss.
>And all these helmet-wearers? They wore their helmets all the time
>like Hagar the Horrible?
As you should know, helmets are heavy and hot to wear for long periods
of time. Remember the Norse got beat at Stamford Bridge partially
because they were caught without their armor. Or are you being
facetious?
>T> In the 11th and 12th c. it is very unusual to see a man wearing
>T>a hat...[in illuminations]
>
>Which means they didn't wear hats?
They might have worn them, especially out of doors, but they weren't
part of the dominant fashion. If it was fashionable, you surely would
have seen William and Harold and their friends wearing hats in the
Bayeux tapestry. As it is, only the women are covered, and then only
with simple veils.
>T>early 13th c. little white coifs became common for men, but were by no
>T>means an obligatory part of the fashion.
>
>And there were no other hats in the 13th century? Just those little
>white coifs? And the women were still just wearing those veils, eh?
>
>Perhaps they all had central heating.
No the 13th c. woman's headdress consisted of more than just the veil.
There was the wimple which went around the neck and the chin and the
veil that went over the head and a small "pill box" hat that went on top
of that, through most of the century. Look at the Manessa codex (c.
1299) or the figures on Chartres Cathedral to get a sense of what was
worn. I'm not an expert on women's hats so I don't know all the
variations in fashion from decade to decade and region to region.
For men, hood were built into some robes and guardcorps making a
very warm garment.
>T> Now, I agree that the SCA does a particularly bad job on
>T>recreating hats. This is partly due to laziness, but I think that most
>T>hats that were worn in the Middle Ages and Renaissance just don't look
>T>attractive to modern people.
>
>... as opposed to houppelandes, which look just great?
There are some houpplelandes (especially some of the Burgundian
ones) that make you look like a chicken with a perm. I wouldn't wear
them on a bet. There are also some houppelandes that look terrific to
the modern eye. There were just some medieval fashions that don't agree
with modern conceptions of beauty - the Norman haircut, the 14th
pouter-pigeon cotehardie, the 16h. bombasted doublet, some of the 15th
c. houppelandes, wearing two or more bright primary colors next to each
other, excessive puffing and slashing, etc.
> ... as opposed to crowns and coronets which are always
> executed with the utmost in taste?
>
>Hell, you're from the Middle Kingdom, owners of the No 10 tin can crowns...
There are no guarantees that anything in the SCA will be
executed with the utmost taste. I agree that one of the sets of SCA
crowns (the earlier versions) is butt-ugly/fantasy. I'd love to see them
replaced with something that looks like it came from a 14th c. ms. But
I'm biased.
>T>I have jokingly referred to the later
>T>Middle Ages and the Renaissance as the "Age of Ugly Hats". Women's
>T>headgear beyond the simple veil is hard to get right and is a bitch to
>T>wear.
>
> ... as opposed to the dresses, which are easy to get
> right and easy to wear?
It was an age of ugly costumes too, but the hats struck me as
being distinctly ugly. Some dresses are deceptively simple to get right
- the cotehardie isn't that hard to sew once you get it fitted right,
Italian Renaissance gowns also aren't that terribly difficult to
produce and T-tunics are a breeze to turn out. Hats require felt,
blocking, wire stiffening, etc. in addition to sewing. Most seamstesses
don't know a whole lot about hats, since we don't make them mundanely.
>Millinery is a craft like any other. There are lots of Scadians who
>make just dandy hats, even though it's tough to do. There are lots
>who wear hats, even though they can be "a bitch to wear".
Yup. There are also bunch of great armorers and jewellers, but
they're scarcer than costumers.
>And granted, a "steeple hennin" is hard to make and wear. Is a
>v-necked gown, with its miles of cloth and it's weirdly fitting waist,
>easy to make or wear?
Actually, yes. I've talked with a woman who made one. Once you
get the waist right, it is comfortable (almost "orthopedic") to wear and
isn't that hard to sew. Admittedly a long train would be a hassle, but
you don't have to make the dress that way.
Is a 16th c. doublet and slops easy to make or wear?
(Comment about hats being hot accidently deleted)
70% of body heat is lost through the head. A hood or veil that
covers the head and keeps heat and moisture from escaping out of a
garment at the neck is very hot on a hot day. I can wear hosen and a
cotton cotehardie at Pennsic when its 85o F with no sweat (literally)
because my head is cooled by the breeze. If I put on the hood that goes
with it, I start to melt. I had an ex-girlfriend at Pennsic who tried
to wear a veil as a sunshade, but had to give it up as being too hot.
>T>used from Ancient Greece to the 16th c. with a lapse during the Imperial
>T>Roman period.
>
>No way. They didn't wear hats until the 14th century (except coifs).
>You told us that. \8-)
Sorry, I meant hats as a part of fashionable attire. As work
clothes (helmets for soldiers, straw hats for field hands) hats never
went out of style.
>You've already said that nobody always wore hats. Except women.
>
Precisely, but I'm fairly certain that even women might have
gone uncovered at times - as children, or unmarried maidens.
>
>T>Once again, the
>T>veil appears in some form or another from Ancient Greece, through Roman
>T>times (albeit for Vestal virgins) and on into the late Middle Ages. It
>T>was pretty well discarded by women of the upper ranks in the late 15th
>T>and 16th c...
>
>Except in ... what ... all of southern Europe?
Well, in church or on the street women might have worn a veil in
Southern Europe. When a woman was "indoors" even if she was in the
courtyard or on the loggia of a house, she didn't wear a veil. I own a
book of 16th c. Venetian woodcuts by Vellochio (pretty crummy mostly,
but I trust his drawings of Venetians) which shows women veiled in the
street, but uncovered (or even with their hair down) while at home. All
the Italian Renaissance portraits I have seen have the women wearing
minimal headcovering, but with their hair carefully dressed in other
ways. I'll grant that a picture of a woman with her hair loose is very
rare, but the elaborate headdresses of the Northern Renaissance and the
previous century had pretty well dissappeared in Italy by the 15th c..
>
>T> Using a crown or metal circlet to hold your veil or head-dress
>T>on is very period.
>
>T>copy of "Citie des Dames" to her patron, who is a duchess. Her Grace is
>T>wearing a modified crown over a bicornate hennin!
>
>Which is the same as wearing a veil held on by a circlet?
Well it's close and it was the only specific reference I could
think of immediately that is commonly reproduced in texts on the Middle
Ages. Now that I think of it, I'm not so certain that metal circlets
were so common. I think most women just used pins. The only metal
circlet I can think of is being worn by a 14th c. dandy in an
illumination of the King of France entertaining the members of the order
of the Star. It is reproduced on the cover of Fabulous Feasts and might
be from one of the copies of Froissart's Chronicles.
I agree that the large, gaudy crown over a simple veil isn't
quite the thing though.
>
>And who unsexed poor Chretien? Probably that nasty Christine de Pisan...
>
Oops, my mistake. I meant Christine.
>T>Very Italianate. There are 15th and 16th c. paintings of victorious
>T>generals and popes wearing a crown of laurel,
>
>Which means they wore them around all the time, right? Hey, Fabio,
>get me my number three wreath, I'm going to a party! Monsignor
>Venetti, kindly hand me that wreath of laurels, I'm presiding over the
>Curia...
Well, no, not all the time, but on formal occasions it wouldn't
be too jarring to my sensibilities. Maybe crowning a new Laurel with a
laurel wreath should be part of the Laureling ceremony, but the new Peer
should only wear the Laurel wreath for the rest of the evening/event.
>T>and I wouldn't put it past
>T>baroque craftsmen to guild the damned things.
>
> 15th and 16th century Baroque craftsmen?
>
> Listening to 15th and 16th century Baroque music while
> they worked?
>
Baroque - late 16th c. (period) and 17th c. (completely or
partially OOP). I never claimed that the 15th c. was Baroque and I've
seen enough truly gaudy 16th c. stuff to consider the ART baroque in
some cases, even if the music and architecture wasn't yet. Tell me that
the more excessive motifs in El Greco's painting and Cellini's jewelry
aren't "baroque" in style if not in name.
>T>Admittedly this was a
>T>ceremonial headgear. It wasn't worn every day. But crowning someone with
>T>a wreath of laurels at a laureling ceremony would not be totally out of
>T>line with period customs.
>
>Which wasn't at all what I was describing.
If you were describing the effect of using a large guilded
laurel wreath as a hatband to hold your veil down, I agree - probably
not the thing. If you think they're utterly non-Period, I would
disagree.
>A>>So why aren't people encouraged to wear hats?
>T> 1) Extra Effort to make.
>
>And Scadians don't make an extra effort on their appearance?
Oftentimes no. How many nasty suits of armor have you seen on
the field? You know, the ones that were made from rusty old steel and
pickle-buckets with no covering over it to make it less ugly that have
been pounded into rusty, unrecognizable lumps of ugly.
How many wrinkled cotton-poly t-tunics with nasty store-bought
trim over blue-jeans and running shoes have you seen?
>T> 3) Bitch to find decent hat felt for some styles
>
>As opposed to rattan, which is not a bitch to find? When there's a will...
>
...there's an endangered species and a dead market. Nobody makes
hats anymore because nobody wears them and beaver fur felt is impossible
to get because beavers are a protected species in the U.S. and Europe.
It's like getting elephant ivory or whale baleen. Furthermore, if you
want to felt your own wool it takes a very large container, a lot of
water, a lot of time and a whole lot of mess. To be fair though, you can
get wool felt, but it's harder to find than rattan, and there isn't as
much of an SCA distribution network for it, the way there is for rattan.
>T> 4) Hot
>
>And a houppelande is not?
I don't wear heavy houppelandes when it's hot. That's common
sense. A short houppelande made from lighter cloth with an open collar
might be managable though.
>T> 5) Inconvenient to wear
>
>And a corset is not?
I don't wear corsets either :). Neither do a lot of women
because they are inconvient. This cuts down on the variety of garments
worn. My lady is a pro-level seamstress, but she won't make any costume
later than early 15th c. Italian Renaissance because she hates corsets,
hoops and boning.
>T> 6) Inconsistant with modern notions of fashion, or just
>T>butt-ugly
>
>And your Amish hat worn with a cote-hardie is going to get you on the
>cover of GQ?
>
No, but it isn't, but it isn't unattractive either, at least to
my eyes. I will admit that the hat is strictly functional. I could wear
the equally unfashionable wide-brimmed, low crowned "gardening hat" that
they sell at Pennsic and be a bit more "medieval" but the "Amish" hat is
period and is easier to wear, since it doesn't blow around as much and
has a narrower brim. When I don't have to, I don't wear the hat, since
the combination looks a bit silly.
>Notice, Thomas, that in the above passage you make millinery a
>separate category from costume. Why is that?
>
Different skills. Felting cloth, making wire armatures, stuff
like that. Admittedly, the skills are related, but it's a different
specialty of costuming. It's also a completely different, peripheral
garment. A lot of tailors gasp with relief when they finally finish that
snazzy 16th c. boned, jewelled, puffed & slashed, embroidered, padded
whatzits and don't have the desire to make the equally fancy hat that
goes with it, especially if they don't think that it is as "pretty" as
the main costume.
.
>The SCA has, over the last 26 years, attained much higher standards of
>many things. Even hats have probably improved. But hats have been
>left way behind.
>
>My thesis was that it was the fault of the awars system.
>
My thesis is that the SCA stays at a constant level of
quasi-authenticity due to turn-over or lack of interest. Hats, like a
number of other artifacts (table wear, camping equipment, musical
instruments to name a few that come to mind) just aren't a very popular
craft for people to take up and get good at. Costumes are more or less
neccessary, armor is more or less neccessary, cooking ditto, brewing and
vintning ditto so we get a lot of people doing them. The other crafts
lag behind because they aren't as central to what most people in the SCA
want to do. When was the last time you heard of somebody getting a
Laurel for stained-glass, or painting (NOT illumination)? They just
aren't as popular.
I agree fully that our awards are stupid, our crowns inauthentic
(mostly) and that the SCA is not all that it could be, but I think it is
silly to say that "brass hats drive out medieval style hats" or that
"everyone in the Middle Ages and Renaissance era went about under a hat
irregardless of age, sex, occupation, situation, culture, station or
time-period". Like many other things I think it is more complex than
that.
Oh yeah, did I get the question about what English barons wore
on their heads right?
Lothar
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Awards
Keywords: Includes the headgear question!
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 18:54:16 GMT
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) writes:
> Let's put an end to this idea that women's hats from the Middle
>Ages and Renaissance are both hard to do and ugly.
>
Lots of good ideas deleted
Greetings from Lothar,
Lady Thorhalla has recreated an item of headgear she calls the
"cute little Viking cap" or the Viking hood. It is based on a yellow
silk coif found at the Jorvik dig. It basically consists of a rectangle
of material folded in half, sewn at the back with ties added at the
lower corners. Cardwoven ties and band at the front are optional.
Documentable and remarkably simple for any early-Scandinavian or
Scandinavian influenced female persona.
The phyrgian cap also looks like a breeze to make and was more
or less worn from antiquity to the 11th c.
Ditto for the coif which was worn from the 12th to the 13th c.
as a more-or-less fashionable piece of garb, and to the 16th as a
functional garment.
Also ditto for the 16th c. "pork-pie" beret. It is nothing but a
gathered circle of cloth with a stiffened brim.
14th c. hoods are very easy to make and can be easily converted
into early 15th c. chaperons if you make the face hole roughly the same
size as your headband measurment. Chaperons themselves are also easy to
make they are just a padded tube of cloth with the "fru-fru" sticking
out of the top.
The 14th c. "robin-hood" hat, can be made from a triangle of
felt turned up at the sides and back steamed into shape.
Finally, the Italian or Flemish "sugar-loaf" hat that is so
common in 15th c. paintings and illuminations can be made by cutting off
the brim of regular hat with a suitably shaped crown.
Hats CAN be fun and easy.
Lothar.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Headgear (was Re: SCA too litigeous?)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 20:17:09 GMT
Greetings from Lothar,
The friendly,local costume research laurel in my group showed me
a photocopy of an article in Costumes magazine by Janet Arnold on this
subject.
Appearantly, the crimped veil edge was achieved by having a
crimped selvage on the cloth. In the article she collaborated with a
weaver to produce bands of textiles that look exactly like those seen in
a similar 14th c. German headdress. (If anyone has Stella Mary Newton's
Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince, it is the picture of the German
statue in Mainz cathedral. The woman looks like she is wearing lasagne
noodles over a 13th c. style "pill-box" hat.
Weaving patterns are included in the article.
So, I think that the crimped headdress from c. 1350-60 was
layered square veils of crimped material that were layered and probably
pinned in place to form the "waffle-weave" look you see from the front.
Lothar \|/
0
.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Headgear (was Re: SCA too litigeous?)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 05:33:13 GMT
Greetings from Lothar,
MEA CULPA ALERT!!!!
I am guilty of adding to the collective misinformation
distributed on the Rialto - again.
Here is the REAL citation:
Frilled Headdresses Mary Stella Newton and Mary M. Giza
Textile History #14 (pages forgotten).
Basic thrust of the article is identical. I have read the
article, but I can't really photocopy it, since the photocopy I've got
is in pretty crummy shape. Anyway, you might be able to get the 'zine
via ILL.
Happy hunting,
Lothar \|/
0
.
From: jliedl at nickel.laurentian.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: headgear-14th c. women's
Date: 20 Sep 93 10:46:25 -0500
Organization: Laurentian University
Greetings all from Ancarett Nankivellis,
In article <1993Sep20.122959.18117 at bcars6a8.bnr.ca>, hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) writes:
> In article <2772b1$7o4 at usenet.rpi.edu>, habura at vccnw01.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>
> |> Now: Would anyone else like to talk about mid-14th c. English women's
> |> headgear, especially crimped veils?
>
> Yes. How did those things get pinned on? Is there a way to avoid about
> 30% hearing loss?
I _do_ fourteenth century and have a few helpful words of advice, practice
and speculation. First off, a small correction. The veils aren't crimped
(i.e. pressed into little half-curls with an iron) but are rather woven
with an extremely tightly-packed selvedge so as to cause this spontaneous
curling when taken off the loom. (Home-weavers who have overworked linen
thread may concur on this happening). You would also have several identical
veils layer upon each other to get the effect (and show off to the world
just how wealthy you are).
The way to avoid hearing loss is simple--if you attach to an underwrap
(across chin or on the back of the head) don't wrap over the ears. Either
just in front or just behind. This _is_ tricky (as it involves complex
physics of several extremely aerodynamic layers of fabric) but can be done.
I notice more muffling of hearing with the Katherine Hepburn as Eleanor
of Aquitaine (TM) style of head-dress.
I also practice a nifty lower-class style of headwrap that covers my hair,
requires not a single pin, and can serve as the basis for more veils to
be pinned onto, without hearing loss. (One Pennsic I became quite a
tourist attraction as I toiled in the Septentrian camp along the roadway--
passersby saying "Look how medieval she looks!" Sigh. Sort of the
peasant women in the _Tres Riches Heures_ look.)
Any more people who practice fourteenth-century women's headdress care
to add their experience?
Ancarett Nankivellis
Janice Liedl
Laurentian University, Canada
JLIEDL at NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA
From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Early male headgear
Date: 18 Jan 94 13:27:17
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.
There was some sort of head-dress in the grave at Bjerringhoj, Mammen
Denmark which dates to about tenth century if I recall correctly,
but the guy in the grave was some sort of chieftan, so maybe that
would be as inappropriate as a crown. Besides it's the right time but
the wrong place.
The Jorvik centre at coppergate York has dummys dressed in
re-constructions of pre-conquest anglo-Norse costume. One has a cap
made of sheepskin with the fur side inside. The cap is made out of
four parts each roughly triangular with two edges of the triangle
having a convex curve. They are sewn together along the curved sides
to make a hemi-spherical cap. Ideal for a cold day but hell when it's
hot and probably not ideal indoor wear unless it's winter and the
heating's failed (I use one as an arming cap inside my helmet, but we
don't hit one another as hard as you folks seem to, and headshots are
rare accidents, I wouldn't recommend it as an arming cap for you heavy
hitting types)
Caps of needlebinding were worn in scandinavia which look vaguely like
modern knitted hats (the sort with a pom pom on top but the
needlebinding version didn't have a pom pom.) I'm afraid that
needlebinding was rare in Britain, I only know of examples from the
viking dominated north.
If only you were a viking you could take your pick of all the flashy
caps from Birka which were decorated with tablet woven braid or metal
fittings, though these were worn with kaftan like coats, and may well
have been out doors dress.
I have seen pictures of saxons in manuscripts wearing phrygian caps.
It is not certain wherher these are cloth caps or helmets I don't
know of any which have been found intact, but you could improvise a
cloth version. They look either pleasingly period or absolutely daft
depending on your tastes. These were being worn in biblical battle
scenes, so they were outdoors as well.
(Phyrgian caps have a point that sort of curves over towards the
front of the hat, it's difficult to describe, you really need a
picture)
It looks like you'll have to either wear an outdoor cap indoors, wear
a wig, or put up with your bald spot showing.
(Unless you want a sex change, there is lots of headgear for saxon
women :-)
That gave me a thought, I don't know if it's a custom in the USA, but
in the UK women put on hats to go to church but men take them off.
I wonder if that custom goes back to Anglo-Saxon ideas about morality
which required pious women to cover their heads? (Apparently some of
the clergy were worried that women's ears would give them erotic
thoughts)
Jennifer/Rannveik
Vanheim vikings
From: fnklshtn at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Early male headgear
Date: 18 Jan 1994 17:58:58 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY
In article <JAB2.94Jan18132717 at bhars243.stl.stc.co.uk>, jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:>
>The Jorvik centre at coppergate York has dummys dressed in
>re-constructions of pre-conquest anglo-Norse costume. One has a cap
>made of sheepskin with the fur side inside. The cap is made out of
>four parts each roughly triangular with two edges of the triangle
>having a convex curve. They are sewn together along the curved sides
>to make a hemi-spherical cap. Ideal for a cold day but hell when it's
>hot and probably not ideal indoor wear unless it's winter and the
>heating's failed (I use one as an arming cap inside my helmet, but we
>don't hit one another as hard as you folks seem to, and headshots are
>rare accidents, I wouldn't recommend it as an arming cap for you heavy
>hitting types)
Same pattern as used by modern Jews as sculcap but without the fur. Older caps
tend to be bigger than the ones we currently use - maybe these were worn by non
jews as well - without fur for indoor use.
Oh, yeah... In Usbekestan both jews and non jews wear such a cap - usually very
elaborately decorated (called Tubeteika in Russian)
Another pattern for a cap is a cloth disk sown to a strip of cloth - see for
example caps worn by black-muslims.
I've seen this pattern used by medieval Italians, North-American Indians, and
Siberians from 12 thousand years ago - as well as modern Usbeks, Afgans ...
etc.
>Caps of needlebinding were worn in scandinavia which look vaguely like
>modern knitted hats (the sort with a pom pom on top but the
>needlebinding version didn't have a pom pom.) I'm afraid that
>needlebinding was rare in Britain, I only know of examples from the
>viking dominated north.
>
>If only you were a viking you could take your pick of all the flashy
>caps from Birka which were decorated with tablet woven braid or metal
>fittings, though these were worn with kaftan like coats, and may well
>have been out doors dress.
>
>I have seen pictures of saxons in manuscripts wearing phrygian caps.
>It is not certain wherher these are cloth caps or helmets I don't
>know of any which have been found intact, but you could improvise a
>cloth version. They look either pleasingly period or absolutely daft
>depending on your tastes. These were being worn in biblical battle
>scenes, so they were outdoors as well.
>(Phyrgian caps have a point that sort of curves over towards the
>front of the hat, it's difficult to describe, you really need a
>picture)
If you ever seen a Smurf you know what a Phrygian cap looks like.
(it's the hat they wear)
>
>It looks like you'll have to either wear an outdoor cap indoors, wear
>a wig, or put up with your bald spot showing.
>
>(Unless you want a sex change, there is lots of headgear for saxon
>women :-)
>
>That gave me a thought, I don't know if it's a custom in the USA, but
>in the UK women put on hats to go to church but men take them off.
>I wonder if that custom goes back to Anglo-Saxon ideas about morality
>which required pious women to cover their heads? (Apparently some of
>the clergy were worried that women's ears would give them erotic
>thoughts)
I vaguelly remember a letter by St. Paul on this matter - chances are it comes
from Paul rather than ideas native to the Anglo-Saxons.
Nahum
From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: ARGH! How do those muffin caps work???
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 13:54:40 GMT
Organization: RAND
In Article <craig_polson-1910941308420001 at security1.radius.com>,
craig_polson at radius.com (Craig Polson) wrote:
>I just spent a few hours making my first muffin cap from the instructions
>in, "Elizabethan Costuming for the years 1550-1580" and it DOESN'T FIT.
>Hrumph. I followed the instructions exactly, but it's nearly impossible to
>get on my head in the first place, then when I do get it on (after several
>minutes of contortions), it falls off immediately if I toss my head around
>at all. Some working cap this is! It would never stay on through cooking,
>cleaning and the like.
My educated guess is that the "band" part that's supposed to fit your
head is too tight. If you can, you might want to unpick the appropriate
seam and resew it. You want it big enough to lay where you want it to
on your head, and you may have to experiment with it. (Is it possible
you didn't factor in a seam allowance when measuring, or that you used
the E.C. measurements, not your own?) I've also seen caps like this
that "cheated" and had the one seam open, with a ribbon tie to make it
fit.
Also, I recommend using straight pins (preferably glass headed in a color
that "blends in") to pin the cap to your hair, which is stuffed inside the
cap. Use several, not just one or two, for security's sake. If the cap's
a bit loose, tendrils might escape, but the pins should keep the hat on
and most of your hair captured.
******************************************
SCA: Philippa de Ecosse, Lyondemere, Caid
mka: Phyllis Gilmore, Santa Monica and Torrance, CA
From: erica at soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Erica L. Frank)
Newsgroups: alt.fairs.renaissance,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: These %*$ at #& HATS! ARGH!
Date: 29 Oct 1994 02:19:46 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Undergraduate Association, UC Berkeley
In article <craig_polson-2010942147460001 at security1.radius.com>,
Craig Polson <craig_polson at radius.com> wrote:
>Okay, so I just spent 2+ DAYS working on a wearable hat for my first SCA
>event this weekend. I have the book, "Elizabethan Costuming for the years
>1550-1580" and have followed the directions exactly for both the muffin
>hat and caul. THEY JUST DON'T WORK! What am I doing wrong!?!?!?!?
>
>The muffin hat won't stay on my head more than a couple of minutes
>whereupon it slips right off. The caul is somewhat better due to the
>addition of elastic, but it's a constant battle to readjust it. I just
Try sewing one or two hair combs (you know, about 2" wide, curved things,
real popular in the mid 80's) to the inside of the muffin cap, one in
front and one in back. Also, the brim of the muffin cap should be as
small as possible, just barely fitting over your head, if it's going to
stay on.
Popular RenFaire solutions include elastic, hairpins, & ties in the
back. Those who have long enough hair sometimes use hatpins.
Otherwise, wearing another hat, like a flatcap, over it will make it stay
put, but you may not want to wear that many layers on your head.
--
erica at soda.CSUA.berkeley.edu
From: tray0003 at gold.tc.umn.EDU (Virginia Traylor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Real Sealwax POISON!
Date: 1 Nov 1994 09:39:53 -0500
>DB><extensive and informative text deleted for brevity>
>DB>Thank you so much for getting back to me so quick. I have proposed to a
>DB>friend
>DB>of mine that we make some sealing-wax candles, but until now had not any
>DB>idea of its composition....
> Cinibar is ground mercury ore. When burned, it gives off mercury vapor. Use
>it in a candle and you'll go as mad as a hatter!! For Real! Permanently!
> In Service
> Aleksandr the Traveller
Yep, little knowledge can be very unhealthy. I admit to being somewhat of an
athenticity mavin. But one of my current interests is period hats. Problem is
that the phrase "mad as a hatter" has a base in reality. Mercury was used in
making felt hats in period -- so I think I'll settle for modern methods that
produce period-like facsimiles :-}
Ciara
Virginia Traylor
Institute for Community Integration
University of Minnesota
tray0003 at gold.tc.umn.edu
From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: 12 cent headgear
Date: 6 Jun 1995 17:07:59 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
A good place to start with head-pieces of a particular period is
Catherine Wilcox "The Mode in Hats and Headgear" I believe it's out of
print, but a lot of libraries have it. Once you've found something that
appeals to you, look for the original that she did her re-drawing from to
fine tune the details. Most of the 12th century pieces she illustrates
are from well-known tomb-brasses and cathedral statuary, and a few are
from illuminated manuscripts.
Good luck!
Mistress Roen
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Request help with Garb
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:57:34 -0400
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
I've used the following with some success--it's my interpretation of the
headpiece in one of the of Irish women by Lucas de Heere (1575)--It's
basically a turban with earflaps; I just tuck my hair under it.
Take a piece of cloth 12 to 18" wide by at least 7 feet long. Put the
middle of the cloth over the top of your head letting equal length
pieces fall on either side. Twish the entire length of both ends
loosely, so that you have a cap on your head. Cross the ends at the
back, then at the front. If you've got enough, cross at the back again.
When you're finished wrapping, pull the ends through the folds over
your ears--the ends should hang over your ears to your jaw line.
Course if you're doing young, unmarried, just put on a fillet and let it
go at that. No other covering needed. In Irish and especially Scottish
cultures, covering the hair was a sign of being married--young men wrote
poems to their ladies about how they'd like to see them cover their hair
with fair linen, meaning that they wanted to marry them.
toodles, margaret
From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: felt hat smooooshed
Date: 3 Sep 1995 23:08:58 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>On the way back form Pennsic the new hat was deformed. >Suggestions?
>thanks in advance
Some people have all the luck, it usually takes me a year and several
rainstorms to get mine deformed properly after buying a new one!
Talk to a fighter about deformation of head to match?
What is it made from? For Felt--Steam the hat and shape it on a mold and
let cool/dry. For "straw" when I inadvertantly smushed the crown of
my wife's sun hat I restored domestic tranquality by placing a wet washrag
in the upside down hat and supporting it so the weight & moisture gradually
(overnight) popped the crown back out.
wilelm the smith AKA wilelm of the disreputable hat
From: habura at magritte.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 14th century headdress for women
Date: 21 Dec 1995 19:20:10 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Hi, Jen! You have a number of choices available to you, and your choice will
depend on what sort of image you're trying to present.
If you want to look screamingly avante-garde 1340's, and you're young,
and have hair you can braid, go bareheaded. Braid your hair either into
a pair of vertical braids reaching to the sides of your jaw, or long
braids coiled over your ears. Look at the ladies in the _Romance of
Alexander_ illuminations for the look. Or, look at the famous painting
from the Luttrell Psalter of Richard Luttrell on his warhorse, being
handed his equipment by his wife and daughter-in-law; their hair is
similar, but they wear short (rectangular?) near-transparent veils
and probably-metal thin circlets.
If you're a little older/trying to look a bit more modest, do your
hair the same way and put a veil over it. I prefer oval ones, since
they drape better. You might look at the Alice de la Pole effigy
for some ideas.
The next one's tough, but it was all the rage around 1360: the "goffered"
headdress. This one's constructed of a bunch of short veils with
ruffled edges, stacked atop one another, so that one mass of ruffs
sticks out around of the face, and the other hangs beneath the
shoulders. I can't recall the names of the effigies that show this style
(the book I'd use is at home), but there are several, and the style
is distinctive. The only problem is that ruffled cloth like this was
probably specially woven, and I'm having trouble recreating it.
If you're trying to look conservative, wear a veil and wimple. With
ruffled edges if you can find them; these ruffles were apparently high
fashion around the end of the 13th.c, but were no big deal (except as
part of the goffered headdress) 50 years later. There's a misericord from
Chartres (I think) that shows a woman's head with this arrangement.
If you want to look high-fashion and don't mind a hassle, construct
a "butterfly" armature--I use wire--, stick it on your head, and drape
a veil over it to simulate a pair of horns. Look at the various
paintings of Christine de Pisan to see what I'm talking about.
If you want to look middle-class or rich-peasant, make a hood. One
relatively easily accessible painting is on the February page of the
_Tres Riches Heurs; the woman in the red cotehardie is wearing one,
with the front edge folded back. These are comfortable and easy to
wear. If you want to look noble, make a hood with a deep cape and
no actual room for your head, and embroider the dickens out of it.
Charles VI of France, when he was the Dauphin, had as one of his
"less fancy" hoods one of purple velvet embroidered all over with
gold vines.
If you want to look peasantish, grab a rectangle of cloth and make
a loose sort of turban out of it. Many of the peasants in the _Tres
Riches Heurs_ wear them.
(whew!)
Since my persona's middle class, I either wear the veil-over-braids or
the hood now. I used to wear the Christine de Pisan "horned" veil, but
now I use it only with clothes that are already a bother.
Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*
From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 14th century headdress for women
Date: 22 Dec 1995 17:26:46 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
In article <4bcc1a$2kh at usenet.rpi.edu>,
Andrea Marie Habura <habura at magritte.its.rpi.edu> wrote:
>Hi, Jen! You have a number of choices available to you, and your choice will
>depend on what sort of image you're trying to present.
Good advice, but the 'Tres Riches Heures' is early 15th c.
There are some decent books on the subject of 14th c. costume.
In addition to the Textiles and Clothing book from HMSO, there is
Costume of the 14th and 15th c. by Margaret Scott (as part of the
history of costume in pictures series)
and,
Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince by Stella Mary Newton
As Alison said, the type of headdress that women wore in the 14th
c. depended on marital status, year, fashion-conciousness, modesty, and
wealth. Additionally, there was some variation from country to country.
Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince gives the best indication of this
(not surprisingly, the headdresses of Southern Europe tended to be
lighter and simpler than those of Northern Europe).
Lothar
From: mugjf at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Gwyndlyn J Ferguson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 14th century headdress for women
Date: 24 Dec 1995 01:43:25 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
: Anyways, what I'm wondering now is what type of headwear did women wear
: around 1350? I would like to find something to wear with a pari-color
: coathardie (sp?). The dress is green and black and will be wearing a
: silver belt (girdle?). I believe wipples were worn before this period so
: that idea is out.
Yes, wimples are more or less out, at least in the 12th century sense.
What I wear with my cotehardies (and how did you get ahold of my green
and black parti-color?) is a "ramshorn" style hairstyle. This is
strongly reminiscent of Princess Leia and the buns on each side of her
head. PArt your hair in the middle (bangs aren't period, but are
overlooked) and braid or ponytail each side to the front of your head --
in front of your ears. Then make a bun out of each one. If you like you
can cover each one with a "hair cage" (I got mine at Wal-Mart). Then
drape an oblong veil across the top, with the long side going across the
top of your head and over the buns. Don't let this drape too far over
your forehead, it should still let the buns show. Secure the veil to the
buns (I use long straight pins -- quilter's pins, or florist pins).
: Could I just wear a veil with a circlet of braided fabric (using the same
: fabric I used in the dress). Is it true in the Middle Kingdom, that I can't
: wear any type of metal circlet since I do not have a Award of Arms yet?
: Does this include any type of circlets including my fabric one? Etc.
I use this as a quick cheater version so there's at least _something_ on
my head. There is no circlet restriction in the Middle that _I_ know of,
and I've spent my whole SCA life here, and worn circlets both metal and
padded cloth with no one telling me otherwise -- just make sure it
doesn't have any decorations that stick _up_, to be absolutely sure.
I love to see people wearing proper headgear, good luck!
Gwyn
__
*Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University
*SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm
*Internet: GJ-Ferguson at wiu.edu <<<<New address!!!
From: schenoweth at usa.pipeline.com(Susan M. Chenoweth)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hat Forms..
Date: 23 Jan 1996 10:22:17 GMT
Organization: Pipeline USA
>A question..I would like to make a period wide-brim felt hat, (ala >"Three
Musketeers").
>I have the instructions on HOW, but I do not have a form for the
>crown part of the hat..
>Would anyone know where I could find one??
>S. Montague..
Williams Costume Company, Inc. of Las Vegas has a number of hat forms; the
pirate form may be what you're looking for (or could be adapted). Their
phone number is 702-384-1384; catalog is free.
Hope this helps.
--
Susan M. Chenoweth
From: doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com (Doug Brunner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hat Forms..
Date: 23 Jan 1996 15:14:23 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Inkjet Comp. Div.
In article <4e1b90$2h4_001 at news.iquest.net>, oya at iquest.net (Sandra Montague) says:
>
>A question..I would like to make a period wide-brim felt hat, (ala "Three Musketeers").
>I have the instructions on HOW, but I do not have a form for the crown part of the hat..
>Would anyone know where I could find one??
>
>S. Montague..
Believe it or not, try the local Army/Navy Surplus. The Marines and Seabees I
used to be stationed with used something that looked like an adjustable
stovepipe. They would place the wet hat over this form, then expand it. It
tightened up the hat and pulled out all of the wrinkles.
Bruno
From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Hats
Date: 25 Feb 1996 00:38:20 GMT
Organization: Vassar College
Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!
About the ninth to eleventh centuries, Ben Levick
(ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk) asked:
1) Does anyone out there have any evidence from this period of English
>men of a non-military nature (i.e. civilians) wearing hats (with the
>notable exception of the well known manuscript showing the king and
>his Witan wearing their ëdunces' capsí), or were hats seen primarily
>as the mark of a military man?
The best single source I have for this is Gale Owen-Crocker's _Dress in
Anglo-Saxon England_, which suggests that hats may not have been
particularly common in the tenth and eleventh centuries. She mentions
the "hufe," an ecclesiastical cap of some sort, but most other headgear
appears to have been military in nature.
>2) We are all familiar with the rather stylish ëViking' fur-brimmed
>leather hat, used by Viking re-enactors all around the world,
>but what evidence is there for its use in this period, particularly
>in western Scandinavia and the British Isles? Was it really used or
>is it another one of those items, like cross-gartered leg bindings
>and double-headed axes, that are more common in modern reconstructions
>than contemporary sources?
At least two main types of men's headwear have been found in Sweden, in
the Birka men's graves of the ninth and tenth centuries. One type
(Hagg's "Type A") has been mutated by many re-enactors into the
aforementioned fur-brimmed leather hat, although the originals appear
to have been neither leather nor fur-brimmed. Both types of headgear
correlate to a specific men's overgarment, believed by some historians
to have been a Rus military garment.
However, I haven't seen any archaeological sources that conclusively
document any specific type of men's headgear in the western Viking
milieu in the same period.
For sources, contact me privately.
***********************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik
Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
***********************************************************************
From: coineaucgh at aol.com (Coineaucgh)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Phrygian Caps
Date: 11 Apr 1996 21:36:02 -0400
I frequently wear phrygian caps. The first one I had I bought from a
merchant. When I saw it was just two pieces with a seam from front to
back I started to make my own. It may take a few tries to get the right
peak. Try stuffing the peak a little if you want it to stand up (or stay
hooked, depending on your style)
Coinneaucgh
From: Elaine Ragland <er37 at columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Phrygian Caps
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:57:31 -0400
Organization: Columbia University
On 11 Apr 1996, Drachene wrote:
> Robert W. Pastor (rpastor at grouper.pasco.k12.fl.us) wrote:
> : Does anyone know where I can get patterns/ideas for 12th c.
> : headgear?
>
> As a student of German, should that not be Frisian caps? Oh well, if I'm
> wrong, ignore me, please. It's rather too late here.
>
> -- Katherine Shaughnessy, Lady of Shadowkeep
It's Phrygian, as in Phrygia, now a part of Turkey. In other
words, it's an ancient cap which was used all the way through the Middle
Ages. It was used by the Romans as the symbol of manumission, hence the
Revolutionary French "Liberty Cap." Classical mosaics usually depict
Amazons wearing them.
For patterns, you might check out Rev War patterns for the
"Liberty cap". Perhaps Jason Townsend's catalogue.
Melanie de la Tour
From: habura at lib119.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A Question about Hats (1300)
Date: 10 Jun 1996 21:38:24 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Due to the good offices of a friend, I have somewhere in my stack o'
photocopies a top view of a lady wearing one of those cage headdresses.
(She's lying down. It's an effigy.) The cages are held on by one
circlet that goes around the brows, and a supporting half-hoop that goes
from cage to cage over the top of the head, sort of like earphones.
The hair shows a quite visible part, so I think the hair is divided
into two pigtails or braids and stuffed into the cages.
So, how does one do this? I'm pretty sure the cages are open meshwork,
which is what's been stopping me from making one of these suckers myself.
I've been eyeing pieces of fireplace grillwork speculatively, but no
luck so far. The rest should be easy: you can get engine freeze-out caps
to cap off the bottoms of the cages, and metal bands can be gotten
relatively easily for the circlet and half-hoop.
My favorite false-hair solution is just that: theatrical wool-crepe
false hair. It comes in long strands that can be gently fluffed, treated
with conditioner so they don't frizz like mad, and braided into false
braids. I use these, and am much happier with them than I was with the
platinum-blonde Halloween wig I was using previously, which looked
too artificial.
If you need a real cite for that effigy, I can go document-diving. This
post is off the top of my head. Hope it helped, though.
Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*
From: Mann <saffron at citynet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A Question about Hats (1300)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:26:54 -0700
Organization: CityNet Corporation
PHefner200 wrote:
>Now I want to learn to make various types of Gothic and late Gothic
>hats, especially the hats that were worn at Duke Philip the Good's court
>in fifteenth-century Burgundy. Does anybody know of any patterns
I don't have any patterns for that period but I've found that the book
"From the Neck Up" by Denise Dreher, Publisher is Madhatter Press, is a
good book to start. Though much of it is for more modern hats. I have
found that several of the companies have been helpful with me on telling
me possible areas that I can research. Sorry I don't remember which ones
that were so helpful. If I can remember will reply to you. Hope this
helps.
From: dickeney at access4.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Headwear at Pennsic
Date: 30 Jul 1996 20:01:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Gale Storm Latzko <tempest at netaxs.com> wrote:
>I hope the good gentles of the Rialto will be able to give similar
>guidance to a problem at the other end of the body -- what should one
>wear on one's head at Pennsic?
>
>My persona, as yet loosely defined, is a 14th century Welsh woman. I
>assume that some type of veil would be in order?
Pennsic of all events is one at which you _need_ headgear. Fortunately,
one of the best I have found is also the easiest: the simple headrail, a
piece of cloth (white for preference) draped over the head and fastened
somehow. I wear a metal circlet over it, but a cloth circlet or twist of
cloth such as the infidels wear is also possible. The shape may be
rectangular or oval. It is helpful to let enough drape over the neck to
protect that area also from excessive sun, and to let the forehead be
covered as well. If the day is insanely hot and you must be out in it,
wetting it will let the evaporation cool you! But just wearing it will
provide a bit of portable shade when shopping in the aptly-named Serengeti
desert shopping area.
I also recommend bringing a hooded tappert (tabard) (essentially a poncho)
for those times when it is not sunny. :) I made one years ago from a
rubber lined brocade curtain; I lined the inside and discovered that it
not only kept the rain out and looked reasonably good (being totally
authentic except for the hidden rubber), it was also warm enough to keep
me warm on cold nights, while being breezy enough to be bearable in warm
rain.
-- Tamar the Gypsy
I heard about the Pour, but I experienced the Sprinkle
From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Headwear at Pennsic
Date: 30 Jul 1996 23:04:54 -0400
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS
A veil, and possibly a wimple, would be what I would recommend, although
straw hats (the ones which are not obviously cowboy hats, etc.) are always
a good choice due to the heat.
My veils are made by taking one yard of fabric, cutting it into a slightly
rectangular-shaped oval, and finishing off the edges (I use the rolled
hem attachment on my serger, but doing a tiny folded hem or a hand-done
rolled hem are fine). Use cotton or silk. If you're worried about
keeping it on and do not want the full wimple, you can use a
"chinstrap" (a band of fabric passing under the chin and pinned on top
of the head) and pin it to that. The ubiquitous circlet will also
do in a pinch, although they did not seem to be popular in the 14th century.
Loose hair can be contained by a caul (or "snood", to use the modern name).
There are much fancier arrangements involving jewelled cauls and veils,
but these are probably a bit too much trouble for Pennsic.
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at chass.utoronto.ca
From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: hats
Date: 22 Sep 1996 00:07:47 -0400
<"Jason L. Keller" <jlk444 at fuse.net>>
>I am searshing on the behaf of a friend of mine.
>I am looking for peroid hats from italy between 1200 and 1300.
>any help would be greatly apprecheated
Well, I haven't finished doing my research on 13th and 14th century hats,
but your friend should try short tailed hoods, coifs, a hat that looks
vaguely like a short brimmed sailer's hat (made of felt), or a crushed
felt hat based on the old Roman pilaeus (Looks something like a "witches
hat" with a floppier brim) - although the latter is fairly low class.
I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU
Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as:
Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | University of Northkeep
Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at well.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Burgundian Hats
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:19:45 -0700
Organization: Whole Earth Networks News
Good Gentles of the Rialto,
I have been recreating the very silly hats of the time period 1430-1465
-- you know the ones: the tall thin cones so often seen in silly
princess costumes (usually paired in the movies with dresses 200 years
later); the rolled-hat on truncated cone; the split heart-shaped hat,
and so forth. I am looking for sources on *construction*.
So far, I have been working from paintings of the time. These clearly
show the dimensions of the hats, and the fabrics that covered them
(usually ornate brocades, if you're curious) but there is little to
indicate the underpinnings. The Museum of London books have some early
examples of circlets, and some descriptions of looped frames which might
have been used in a hat, but certainly nothing of solid determination.
My "conjecturally period" method is to use woven canework as the stiff
yet lightweight bases for these hats. Reeds/canes were used in
later-period corsets to give stiffness, so it seems not that unlikely.
In addition, there is one painting by Roger Van Der Weyden, "Portrait of
a Lady" which looks very much as if her truncated-cone hat is made of
basketwork. This is my only backup for the canework theory. Other
reputable costumers in the area have suggested felted wool, or metal
frames, but as yet I have no sources for these.
So, Rialtans, if you or others you know are working and researching in
this area, please do post. I am most eager to hear from others who find
these very silly hats most entertaining!
In service,
Cynthia du Pre Argent
Crosston/Mists/West
From: innana at imap2.asu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Burgundian Hats
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:38:24 -0700
Organization: Arizona State University
> So, Rialtans, if you or others you know are working and researching in
> this area, please do post. I am most eager to hear from others who find
> these very silly hats most entertaining!
The easiest base for the truncated hennin is a popcorn tub. Just
go to the movie theatre and ask for a large popcorn tub. Then cover the
tub with fabric. This method is not period, but the resulting headress
looks like the truncated hennins in the pictures.
From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Burgundian Hats
Date: 3 Oct 1996 17:15:07 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Once when I was doing a production of "Notre Dame de Paris"
(French version of now famous flick) in Mexico, I bought straw somberos in
the market for aprox $.25 each, cut the brims off, taped the cut edges and
covered them in fabric. It worked! (what I was doing making henins in
Mexico is another story)
Mistress Roen
From: Robyn Hodgkin <robyn.hodgkin at dpie.gov.au>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Burgundian Hats
Date: 4 Oct 1996 01:11:22 GMT
Organization: Australian Commonwealth Department of Primary Industries and Energy
Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at well.com> wrote:
> innana at imap2.asu.edu wrote:
> > The easiest base for the truncated hennin is a popcorn tub.
>
> Ah, indeed, Milady, it is quite easy to use such a construction. Other
> modern solutions are plain cardboard and plastic needlepoint "canvas."
> But what I am looking for in particular is other "conjecturally period"
> (using materials that could have been used in period) or "documentably
> period" hat construction methods.
>
> I am doing so for many reasons, but one of the most practical reasons is
> that with basketry, I do not have to protect my hats from damp!
I have used plastic canvass to good effect, but have trouble finding
it in big enough sheets.
Kiriel
From: foxd at ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Daniel Boyd Fox)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Burgundian Hats
Date: 5 Oct 1996 01:49:21 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Robyn Hodgkin <robyn.hodgkin at dpie.gov.au> wrote:
>Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at well.com> wrote:
>> innana at imap2.asu.edu wrote:
>> > The easiest base for the truncated hennin is a popcorn tub.
>>
>> Ah, indeed, Milady, it is quite easy to use such a construction. Other
>> modern solutions are plain cardboard and plastic needlepoint "canvas."
>> But what I am looking for in particular is other "conjecturally period"
>> (using materials that could have been used in period) or "documentably
>> period" hat construction methods.
>>
>> I am doing so for many reasons, but one of the most practical reasons is
>> that with basketry, I do not have to protect my hats from damp!
>
>I have used plastic canvass to good effect, but have trouble finding
>it in big enough sheets.
>
>Kiriel
In one of Piero della Francesa's notebooks there is a pen and ink sketch
of the inside of a padded roll. It appears to be wickerwork, which makes
a certain amount of sense as the base for 15th century hats--it would be
light and relatively easy to shape.
Audelindis de Rheims
From: HPGV80D at prodigy.com (Patricia Hefner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Burgundian Hats
Date: 5 Oct 1996 04:27:35 GMT
I too have been looking for ideas on Burgundian hats, especially the
"heart-shaped" headdress. I've gotten a veritable plethora of ideas on
how to do the "coif" parts. I made a coif out of folded-up canvas, which
was the part of the coif that fit my had, and sewed red velvet over it.
Then I took some juliet hats, sewed red velvet on them, and used gold
trim to produce a "mesh" look. I sewed pearls on the corners of each
"square" of the "mesh". Then I fastened the juliet hats onto the coif.
This was quite heavy, so I had to put cord on it to tie it up so it would
stay on my head! This idea was (partially) based on advice given to me by
Mistress Huette, from Caid. Using the canvas was an idea that came to me
from a gentle in Middle. But I still can't figure out how to do anything
like this and put a roll over it--and still have the darn thing looking
neat and not a total mess, like I did on my first roll hat, which I won't
take out of my closet! <G>
Ideas, anybody?
-----Isabelle de Foix, AOA,
CAM, Kingdom of Meridies
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at well.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Burgundian Hats
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:19:47 -0700
Organization: Whole Earth Networks News
Patricia Hefner wrote:
> I too have been looking for ideas on Burgundian hats, especially the
> "heart-shaped" headdress.
Milady, I fear I am having trouble picturing the hat you describe. Is
there a picture you are working with that you could referece to aid my
ailing braincells?
The hats I have had most trouble with are the ones where the
underpinning of the roll seems to be somewhat rounded; a nice stuffed
shape gets much smushed when you finally attach the roll to it. The
plain rolls or the truncated-cone base type are so much easier, from an
engineering point of view. At the moment for camping events, (ie, a
shortcut) I've been using a padded roll with a wire (hanger-weight) run
through it and bent in a V in front to simulate the outline of the
heart-shaped hat -- but this is merely a holding action until I can
figure it out.
---
Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent, Minister of Silly Hats, Crosston
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at well.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: hat help needed
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:52:06 -0800
Isabelle wrote:
> Help! I'm trying to make a padded roll hat, and I can't even figure out the round cut--the one you use if you want the hat to be smooth and not have wrinkles in them. All of my padded rolls have wrinkles in them, but since I'm doing this for a mundane theatre group this is not cool. Does anybody have directions?? Merci beaucoup!
Greetings to Isabelle and the Rialto:
The ones I make are cut on the straight grain, then formed into a tube,
and stuffed moderately firmly (about like your average throw-pillow.)
They have wrinkes, then, on the inside curve, but none where they can be
seen.
The pictures that I have of women wearing just roll hats (no veils, so
you can see a bit more detail) are not drawn from above and behind so
that one could tell if, or if not, there are interior wrinkles, but I'd
be inclined to say that there were.
In order to *not* have wrinkles, you'd have to make very precise "orange
segment" type cuts; in addition, if, as many of us suspect, stuffed roll
hats evolved from rolled-up-hoods, the medievals would be somewhat used
to the wrinkles on the inside circumference.
---
Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent, Minister of Silly Hats, Crosston
From: "Perkins" <lwperkins at snip.net>
Subject: Re: Bliaut
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 14 Mar 97 17:21:00 GMT
Carrie A Schutrick wrote
> I'm in the process of making myself a bliaut, and I was just wondering
> how to construct the headdress that always seems to accompany it. The
> veil part I can figure out, but the part that goes under the chin and
> around the face confuses me. It it a hood, a shawl, or something else
> entirely? I can't see the construction in primary sources, and costume
> books advise me to do things that end up looking completely wrong...
Probably Dorothea can answer this one better than I, having more experience
with early period garb, but I went to a class at Pennsic taught by Hilary
of Serendip, and she had the following advice for the headdress of this
period: First take a narrow linen band and sew it together like a modern,
Hillary Clinton headband. Put that on so that it pulls your hair up and
away from your face.
Take a second linen band and pin it around your head as though it were a
circlet, attaching it to the first band at the temples for stability. Take
a rectangle of linen (about 9 inches by 17--play with the dimensions) and
arrange it lengthwise from up and behind one ear, across your chin,and up
and behind the other ear, pinning the upper corners to the "circlet" band.
(this would be so much easier with pictures). This is the wimple . Then
cover the whole assembly with the veil, which can also be pinned at the
temples to the "circlet" band. It sounds complicated, but it's easier if
you're actually doing it, and everything stays put. And you don't get
sunburned.
Good luck!
--Ester
From: "Bill Sanderson" <bills at opcom.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bliaut
Date: 14 Mar 1997 18:48:14 GMT
Organization: OpCom Solutions, Inc.
Greetings:
Carrie A Schutrick <caos+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> I'm in the process of making myself a bliaut, and I was just wondering
> how to construct the headdress that always seems to accompany it. The
> veil part I can figure out, but the part that goes under the chin and
> around the face confuses me. It it a hood, a shawl, or something else
> entirely? I can't see the construction in primary sources, and costume
> books advise me to do things that end up looking completely wrong...
>
> --Carrie S.
Several years ago, the then Steward Sir Hilary of Serendip, taught us a
class on wimpled headdresses, which I sat in on. The first step is to make
two bias bands about 2 inches wide. The first band goes around your head in
much the same place that a modern knit headband would i.e. top of forehead
to base of skull at the back. Pin it at the back. Take band # 2 and loop it
under your chin and over the top of your head. Pin the second band at the
top and to the first band. Then pin your veil to the bands, and if it's
long enough, wrap the bottom of the veil around your neck and artfully
drape it over your bosom.
Three comments I've heard. First, if you don't use bias bands, there won't
be any give and you'll end up with a either a headache because the headband
is too tight, or the veil will slip off if it's too loose. Second, it can
be very warm to wear; try very light cotton for the bands and veil if you
will be wearing it in summer. Third, wearing it can seriously affect your
hearing, things may sound very muffled until you get used to it.
Hope this helps
Gwilym ap Alun,
Caldrithig, Ealdormere
From: capncarp at aol.com (CapnCarp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hats (was Re: Miserable Sun Block)
Date: 24 Jun 1997 14:22:41 GMT
Being a poor half-Norman,half-Arab living in the Holy Land, I have learned
to enjoy Allah's blessing of the Kaffiyyeh, which is a large(45-inch
square) cotton head cloth. It is warm in cold weather, cool in hot
weather, absorbs persperation from men, it absorbs the glow of the ladies
(to quote the modern joke,men perspire, women glow, horses sweat--"yes,
and I'm glowing like a pig!"). It can be configured in several ways:
folded in half, triangle fashion,then draped over the head with the short
point pointed down the back and the long points crossed loosely under the
chin and thrown over the shoulder. Or folding as before, used as a turban.
When you are hot, simply wet the kaffiyyeh with cool water--evaporation
will dry it out and cool you off in the bargain. Feel free to stop by
Chirurgeons' Point and ask for Geoffrey or Samirah for help with arranging
them on yourself.
I realize I have been speaking without knowledge of your persona's period
and locale--this would be a method appropriate for one who resides or has
resided in the hot climes of the Middle East
Good luck, and see you at Pennsic
Geoffrey Soulspeeder
From: bjm10 at c$or$ne!ll#.e&du (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: hats
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:27:27 -0500
Organization: IFV, In Ferro Veritas
John Bright <jbright at tyler.net> wrote:
> I am in search of a pattern for a balmoral(the funny
> floppy hats so popular in the SCA or atleast in Ansteorra)
> please post to rialto because of my use of my fathers computer
Ah, the Scottish Lowlander's hat--it didn't become a Highlander's hat
until the 17th century, after official SCA "period" ends.
There are a couple of ways to make it, both VERY simple. No pattern needed.
The "almost one-piece" method:
Measure the circumference of your head and add ten inches. Cut out a
piece of circular cloth with this circumference. Cut out a cloth
rectangle an inch wide and with a length equal to your head's
circumference plus an inch. Pleat the circle to the middle of this band
and tack it down (sewing term). Put a drawstring in at THIS point. Fold
the band over, sew it up--do NOT sew the drawstring. Turn in the edges of
the band and hem. Sew a pom or not to the middle of the circle. One
floppy hat, suitable for wear (with appropriate decoration) for any
Western European from roughly 1400-1550, EXCEPT for a Highland Scotsman.
Want it to be authentic? Make it out of 100% wool cloth and linen thread.
The other way is a bit more involved, so I never learned how.
--
To respond via email, remove non-licit characters to change my site to "cornell.edu".
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at ricochet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on sewing
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:27:13 -0700
Organization: Virtue Ventures
Gerta wrote:
> Well, at pennsic I happened to see a
> VERY FINE LOOKING man wearing a hat which i have
> since found out is called a "coxcombe" and was
> warn with houpelandes and since i also went to
Ah, yes. Houppelandes look good on *anyone*, and if that person looks
good to begin with...but I digress.
There are a bunch of different names for what you describe, depending on
region. Instead of calling it anything in particular though, I call
them a hood or a rolled hood. Some folks call them chaperons. There
are suspicions that later in period (late 1400s) they were not rolled-up
hoods, but stuffed rolls with dags and liripipes, but to my knowedge, we
don't have a lot of evidence either way. I do have a friend who thinks
he saw a cork donut from period (in a museum) that was meant to be the
stuffing for such a thing, but he does not remember well enough to be
certain.
So, all that said, when I make these for myself or for friends, I make
them as a real hood that they can then roll up and wear on top of their
head if they wish, or wear as a hood if it is chilly. The section that
goes over the sholders (the skirt or cape) is that which is dagged. For
wearing on the head, the cuff around the face is rolled up, and you put
the face opening on the top of your head as the brim of the hat, and
arrange the dags ornamentally.
A basic pattern for a tight-fitting hood can be found in the Museum of
London's Dress Accessories book. You can extend the length of the cape
as long as you like, down to elbow level at most.
---
Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent, Minister of Silly Hats, Crosston
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:05:18 -0700
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Elizabethan hat
Kim Archuleta wrote:
>>>>>>>
Has anyone information on the little hat, it looks like a rounded (almost like a skull cap?) part that sits on the top-back of the head, and the front is sort of flared or scalloped out. Sort of like a small French Hood that comes to a sharp point in the center front, with the front arcs folded up and back, and the lower back part removed, and with the sides pulled a little farther to the back (doesn't cover the ears, but curves well above them). It may be just hair covering the top of the head, but the hair styles show the hair most likely parted in the center, and no part line appears on top of the head.
There is a picture in Blanche Payne's "History of Costume", fig. 305, of
Marguerite of Valois wearing one, if you have that particular book. It is probably a modified version of Mary Queen of Scots hat (which is an evolution of the French hood).
Any help would be appreciated, it is a lovely little understated hat, and I'd love to get some documentation (or other examples in paintings) of it.
Elenfea of Starwood
<<<<<<<
I don't have a copy of the book you cite, however if I understand the
hat by your description, the local RPFS calls this hat an 'attifet'. I
made one about ten or so years ago that I liked, however I didn't extend
the length of the back of the hat far enough on the back of my head to
suit mine own taste. I was too impatient to finish it and wear it!
The shape of the pattern piece is something like this, given the abysmal
limitations of ascii art:
___________ <--center top of the hat
| / over the forehead
| /
| |
| \
| |
|________/
^^
||
ascii art won't convey a gentle slope to the bottom, jawline edges. It
is also grossly out of proportion.
I would suggest that you get a fairly large piece of stiff paper, like
Bristol board and fiddle with a pattern. The front edge has to be wired
to hold its shape-- my 'hat form' underneath the velveteen and linen
covering was made out of florist's wire and needlepoint plastic, which
meant that if it was accidentally sat upon, it would pop back into shape
with the exertion of a little gentle force.
Lastly, don't piece the pattern piece over the center top, nor should
you put a fold there, or a seam in the final product either in the form
or the cloth (looks icky). If you get the face-edge curve close to the
right shape, duct tape some light wire on your pattern piece and see
what it does. ;) It's been my experience that hatmaking is fiddly,
exacting work-- the more careful one is when stitching up the final
cloth covering (mine was entirely done by hand) the nicer the finished
article. Me, I think embellishment and decorating is more fun than what
I term 'plain' or 'construction' sewing.
ciorstan
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 12:07:29
From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Schosser-Payne" <arianne at trimaris.com>
To: "sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: 12 - 13th Head gear or head wear
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:58:27 -0800, Yvette Baker wrote:
>With one exception. What to wear on my head. As a
>woman from 12 - 13th (still working on persona) century
>I am in a quandry about what to wear on my head.
>
>I have long hair with bangs. Those pesky bangs make lots
>of trouble when it comes to headgear. So I am wondering.
Speaking as a lady of 1196 Normaundie (Normandy, in France), I hope I can be of assistance.
Excluding the bangs, which I've only seen in period on young girls, your hair seems perfect for our period.
First, you want to either part it down the middle and braid it or put it in one big braid in the back. It was during our period that ladies would wrap their hair in casings (see below) to decorate it and make it appear longer and thicker.
CASINGS: I've not found a good pattern for them, but I came up with a good design myself. First, I took rags of a nice, soft fabric (preferably LONG rags of a lighter-coloured fabric than you plan on making the casing out of) and tore them into 4-6 inch wide strips. The wider these strips are, the more hair it looks like you have. I then took a good hair-type rubber band and folded three of the strips over it, with varrying (sp?) amounts of fabric folded over (I suggest 6 - 12 inches).
I then braided the three strips together (it works better if you roll
the torn edges to the inside or take the time to cut the rags), stopping every time I got to the end of a rag (including the three short ones). This looks neater if you trim the ends down a little and overlap. Continue until the braid is the desired length -- 46 inches is good for me, and I'm 5'9". Let the size of the braid taper naturally, and use a rubber band to end it. It's good to take a nice tassel and secure it to the bottom of the braid.
Then you want to take a NICE, period-looking fabric and cut a rectangular piece long enough and wide enough to wrap completely around the braid with room for seams and your real hair (9" x 48" for my measurements). Hemstitch up one long side and the top, then fold up a good seam allowance at the bottom and start wrapping, aligning things so the edge doesn't really show. Starting at the bottom, sew the casing to the braid, stopping about six inches below where your hair ends. Secure two barrettes to the top rubber band (these get put in your hair right at the base of your braid to hold up the casing. Try it on, putting your braid through the rubber band and wrapping the casing around the two braids. Find out where the edge of the casing lines up with the rest of the casing, and mark.
Take it off and sew a nice trim around the casing every 6-12 inches along the length of the casing (different trims?) so it looks like you have circles of trim around the casing. Use modern closures like snaps disguised by the trim.
As for the rest of your headgear, you can chose between a gorget and a wimple to cover your neck and top it off with a long oval veil. (I understand the veils tended to shorten over the 13th century and the wimples to become more covering.) You can chose to keep that in place with a pair of fibula (fibulae? -- decorative period safety pins), a thin band that might be decorated, or a little cap that the experts agree was probably knitted (which at least one period sculptor has shown UNDER all that headgear).
>Would a thin band with ribbons attached in back be in that
>period? How about a smallish pillbox type hat with veil
>under the chin and trailing in back, kind of a barbette look?
>And was gauzy fabric available at that time for veils?
While the thin band would be period, I've not seen the ribbons done that way in our period. I have seen the pillbox and veil look for late 13th - early 14th century dress, although you would need a barbette, aka a gorget (if I have my definitions right; I'm a bit foggy on that). As for gauzy fabrics, they were available but bore no resemblance to the scrunchy artificial fibre ones of today. Instead, look to fine white muslins and other similar fabrics. I once read (in a borrowed SCA publication that was booklike but not a CA) that they often wove patterns in the fabric they used for headgear by weaving portions back and forth separately -- I'm thinking a heavy sort of lace. BTW, if anyone knows which publication I'm talking about, I'd like to know.
Yours in the Dream,
Arianne de Dragonnid
From: Margo Anderson <wander at directcon.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Securing veils (Was:First experiences)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:27:59 -0800
Organization: Global Valley Internet, Sacramento
I. Marc Carlson wrote:
> Take a 1" band of cloth and wrap it around your head like a head band.
> Then make a band that wraps around under your chin and over the top of
> your head (this is called a "barbette". Pin those together at the temples
> (or where ever they cross). You then pin the veil to that.
You can also just use the band of cloth around your head, without the
chinstrap, if you don't want that look. Then you can hav one of those
wondrous draped veils that don't have a circlet on top. It does help
keep it on if the band is strectchy, which I discovered by accident
when, in an emergency, I was forced to use a leg from a pair of
pantyhose.
BTW, I've found that pantyhose make an excellent foundation for all
kinds of headresses, if you put them on your head with the elastic
around your hairline they keep the wisps of hair from escaping. Wrap the
legs around your head turban style and your have a tight, secure base
you can pin into.
Of course I know this isn't period! It is, however, a good substitute
for having lots of long hair to attach to.
Margo Anderson
"One Tough Costumer"
From: "anti-spam" <gospamgo at spam.elsewhere.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hat book question
Date: 28 May 1998 12:03:46 GMT
Phefner <phefner at aol.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know how I can order the book "From the Neck Up?" I had the
> address, but got distracted and never ordered the book. For shame!! :-)
>
> Isabelle de Foix
> College of Misty Mere
> Kingdom of Meridies
From the Neck Up : An Illustrated Guide to Hatmaking
by Denise Dreher $25.00
Paperback
Published by Madhatter Pr
Publication date: December 1981
ISBN: 0941082008
Available at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/quicksearch-query/002-3236159-3253255
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:20:27 EDT
From: <SNSpies at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu, cards-l at frank.mtsu.edu
Subject: Orkney Hood
In the Spring 1997 issue of "Archaeological Textiles Newsletter", there is a
short article entitled "An Update on the Orkney Hood" by Thea Gabra-Sanders on
pp. 19-20. The Orkney Hood is known to many of us from A.S. Henshall's, "Early
Textiles Found in Scotland" (Proc. Soc. Antiq. Scot. 86, 1-29). The hood has a
wide tabletwoven band and a very long fringe. This article states that
"Henshall leant towards a Viking or even pre-Viking date on the basis of its
workmanship, but noted that hooded garments were in use as late as the 17th
century AD." However, they have now done radiocarbon dating of a sample of
wool from the hood and found that it gave a date of ca. 250-615 A.D.
Nancy (Ingvild)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:34:20 -0700
From: Curtis & Mary <ladymari at cybertrails.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: russian garb
> > Note too that the 'Russian hat' developed from a Viking original.
>
> Now that's interesting. Which style? Do you mean the one with the flaps we
> know today? BTW, I can't recall period illustrations of that specific style,
> although it makes perfect sense for winter.
**********************
Hats with ear flaps:
Dress in Ireland, page 59
is a picture, the caption reads "Balaclava hat, part of the Kilcommon, Co.
Tipperary outfit. Of coarsely woven wool with matting or felting ont he inner
surface. Buttoned at the front." The text describing this and other finds
does not elaborate on the hat.
History of Hand Knitting, page 59,
Another picture, caption reads "Sixteenth-century woolen cap with earflaps,
found with others in Moorfields" I couldn't find any place in the text that
discusses this exact cap, but a bit says "Another form of skull cap was coarse,
sometimes nearly as coarse as the Monmouth cap, but with ear-flaps or lappets tha may have been secured under the chin. Such caps have been found particularly int he city of London, and are believed to have been worn by artisans, and to date from the first half of the sixteenth century. The extant examples are black. They were knitted from the centre of the crown outwards and downwards."
sorry, don't have any more than that.
Mairi, Atenveldt
Subject: Re: ANST - hats
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 12:15:14 MST
From: "Franchesca Havas" <ches at io.com>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
:I am looking for any images of, patterns for, or sources about hats
:and other non-armor headwear for the 13th-14th century German
:gentleman.
:
:Anselm the Bald
This site has two hats on it that you can follow the directions to make
pretty easily.
http://members.tripod.com/~GarbMonger/index.html
Ches
aka Chiara Francesca
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:39:22 -0800
From: Mary Haselbauer <slaine at stlnet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Dublin Viking Cap documentation
Greetings all,
I made a little viking cap like the ones found in the
Fishamble Street digs in Dublin. I have the Textile
History article about them so I feel very confident
about the documentation of the cloth part of the cap.
However, since the cap needs a cord to tie it on I
though I'd make a tablet woven one. I was sure
that between Collingwood's book and the resources from
the web I could find some reference to tablets being
used in Dublin. I can't. I have one very shaky reference to
bone tablets being found in Dublin excavations. I have no
idea if they are contemporary with the caps.
I probably wouldn't care but one aspect of the project is
so well documented I would like to see the other part be
less spectulative. Is it too general to say that since
Viking tablet weaving was done elsewhere it must have
been done in Dublin?
BTW I have found references to two articles tht will help me.
I'll order them as soon as school starts up again.
Because someone will ask:
Heckett, Elizabeth. "Some Hiberno-Norse Headcoverings from Fishamble
Street and St. John's Lane, Dublin." Textile History 18(2),
159-74, 1987.
Slaine
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:05:27 -0600
From: Robar <mortis at ctwok.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Cavelier Hat Wanted
Nancy Lynch wrote:
> I am in need of a brown cavelier hat for my hubby. Anyone out there
> have good sources?
>
> Mistress Lughbec
You might try the following site. He has instructions for making a
cavelier style hat.
http://members.tripod.com/~GarbMonger/cavalier/cavalier1.html
Moira nic Kissock
--
Eala Bhan Manor
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:29:51 EST
From: <CKONOW at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Cavalier Hat
Greetings all...there are a number of reinactor suppliers (suttlers) who sell
wool felt hat blanks. You can get them in a variety of colors (I've seen
brown). It's basically a shaped crown with a really big brim. You trim the
brim (sounds musical, eh?) and then tack up one side for the ubiquitous Cav
look. In truth, I've even used those nifty edging scissors used in paper card
stamping (the ones with the scallop edge) to trim one hat's brim with
success.
Nifty look! Happy hatting...Thea
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:49:50 -0800
From: Mary Haselbauer <slaine at stlnet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: a 14th century hat
Christine and John Trochesset wrote:
> Hi I am new to the list and would like any info on ladies head
> coverings or hats my persona is late 14th century and am flexible on
> were I come from because I am a merchants daughter so I could slide by
> with any. I want something fairly simple because I need them for Gulf
> Wars. Can any one help, web pages, pictures, books, anything? Thanks
> Matilda
Here is a deceptively simple 14th century head covering.
Get a length of cloth about 15 inches wide and about 2.5 yards long or so.
Get as many corsage pins as the craft store has. For some strange
reason they are cheaper in the floral section rather than the
bridal section. Corsage pins are about 2 inches long and have a
pearl at one end. Twist and coil the fabric into two
"danishes" that will fit about your ears. (Yeah like Princess Lea
but with fabric) Hold the coils in place with the corsage pins every
few inches.
I don't have long hair so I wear this as a cap. In period a lady's
braids would have been bound up in the length of cloth and pinned
or sewn into the coils.
You can combine this headress with other veils and circlets.
Slaine slaine at stlnet.com
P.S. My cheater 15th century hat involves 2 wicker cornicopias
from the Dollar Store.
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:49:52 -0800
From: Mary Haselbauer <slaine at stlnet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: re: a 14th century hat
>P.S. I am interested to know how you arrange the 2 wicker cornucopias.
I used the cornucopia to make a two horned hennin.
I covered them with white fabric and sewed them to a white
"arming cap" (a close fitting cap that ties under the chin)
I attached a veil to the ends of the horns. I won't begin to
describe how I draped the veil. I was looking at the illuminations
of Christine de Pisan that are easily found. (on the Medieval
woman calendar, City of Ladies, lots of places.)
The friend who first suggested this didn't use a cap. Her two
horns were attached to each other and held on with bobby pins.
This is a great hat for moving through a crowed room. People get
out of the way! It also provides shade but wind is your enemy.
Slaine
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:51:42 -0500
From: "Elyse C. Boucher" <70521.3645 at compuserve.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: SCA-ARTS digest 686
Regarding black veils....
Greetings from Merouda Pendray.
While this isn't precisely what you are looking for, I would suggest that
you look to late 15th century France/Flanders/England. At this time,
the "head rainment" that would eventually become the "French Hood" comes
into frequent appearance in portraits and illuminations. While reproduction
hoods are frequently made as one piece, the hood is actually two or more
pieces; one of those pieces is a black fall that appears sometimes as
a veil, sometimes as a tube. Obviously, since the veil or tube is worn
in conjunction with some sort of billiment and, usually, cap, it isn't
arranged in the same manner as, say, a wimple and veil, it is, nonetheless,
an example of a black veil in use within the 15th century.
Your servant, Merouda
From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant_NOSPAM at indiana.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Phyrgian Cap
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:24:08 -0500
Organization: Indiana University
Wm. Bryan Fountain wrote:
> Can anyone help me locate a pattern for a phyrgian cap?
It helps when looking to spell it right. :)
Here's a page full of patterns:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&;ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22phrygian+cap%22+pattern&btnG=Google+Search
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Zebee Johnstone <zebee at zip.com.au>
Subject: hats and hatting
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:05:52 GMT
Organization: Pacific Internet (Australia)
From my current "damn you www.psbooks.co.uk" reading pile....
nteresting info about hats and hatting.
Note the colours of knitted caps, presumably they were not dyed at all
as that would remove the waterproofness of the wool? Also, it seems if
you are English but not protraying a rich person, you should be wearing
a knitted cap or pay a fine... at least at events held on a Sunday!
Note also that it was important to be a Livery Company of the City of
London - or the equivalent elsewhere. This was because only a Livery
Company had the right to make their journeymen freemen of the City, and
only freemen could set up shops or work in the City. So by preventing
the Feltmakers from creating freemen but requiring them to rely on
the Haberdashers, the Haberdashers had the Feltmakers by the short
and curlies.
A Master wasn't supposed to hire foreigners (non-freemen) but many did as
they worked cheaper, not being paid Guild rates. Also, various upheavals
in France at the end of out period meant that there were lots of skilled
cheap French workmen looking for work.
This meant that many hatters and cappers opened up shop outside London (or
other areas that used the Guild/Freemen system) to use the cheap labour,
leading to lobbying wars as various groups tried to protect their turf.
Numbers given elsewhere imply hats were big business. In the early 17thC
there were "great numbers of master-hatters employing 9-10 journeymen
each" in Newcastle-under-Lynne. That's a lot of hats....
From "The Mystery of the Coventry Cappers" by Peter King
Continuum, London and New York 2001
Appendix 1
THE FELT-HATTING INDUSTRY, c. 1500-1850
(With particular reference to Lancashire and Cheshire)
BY MISS P.M. GILES M.A.
(Transactions of the Lancashire & Cheshire Antiquarian
Society Vol LXIX (1959)
In the Middle Ages caps of knitted wool were a common form of
headgear. The earliest reference so far traced to their manufacture is
a set of ordinances dated 1258, belonging to the craft of Cappers in the
City of London. These include the regulation that no-one should 'make a
cap'except of good white or grey wool or black... Also that no-one shall
cause an old cap to be dyed black for selling again, because when exposed
'to the rain it falls to pieces'. Some seventy years later, in 1328,
among those elected in 'divers misteries of London' were numbered the
'Haberdassheres', not craftsmen, but merchants either of small wares
or of all manner of headgear. Thirdly, in 1347 the Hatters' Company
of London was incorporated. It is not yet known, however, whether the
hatters of 1347 worked in felt. It is probably correct to say that felt
hats were not extensively manufactured in England for general use before
the sixteenth century. As a luxury article these had been ,imported from
Bruges, France, and Milan (hence the term 'millinery'). Early in the
reign of Henry VIII immigrants from the first two countries caused an
expansion of the industry, and by 1576 there were about 400 native-born
feltmakers in and about London.
The new type of hat, both foreign and English made, proved a serious
rival to the old-established capping industry. In 1565 the Cappers
were complaining of an 'excessive use of hats and felts, causing
the impoverishment and decay of great multitudes making woollen caps,
...bringing good cities and towns to desolation'. In fact no fewer than
five statutes were passed between 1511 and 1570 to protect the Cappers.
In the latter year Parliament ruled that every male person, not possessed
of a rental of 20 marks a year, should wear on the Sunday or holyday a
cap of wool wrought in England, under penalty of a fine of 3s.4d. But
such legislation failed to check the well- to-do, who indulged more and
more, as the puritanical Philip Stubbes complained in 1583, in hats of
velvet, taffeta, sarsenet, or 'of a certain kinde of fine hair. These
thei call Bever hattes of xx, xxx or xl shillings price, fetched from
beyond the seas'. Chaucer's Prologue has a much earlier reference to
a 'Flaundrish bever hat'. The Elizabethan beavers, however, may well
have been imported not only from Flanders but also direct from Spain,
where there was a flourishing hatting industry in the sixteenth century.
Later, the famous trip of Prince Charles and the Duke of Buckingham to
Spain to woo the Spanish Infanta doubtless increa$ed the popularity of
the beaver hat and its manufacture in England, until its wear became
universal among the upper classes.
During the Stuart period, it was decided by whom the new industry
should be controlled in the capital. At first the London haberdashers
seemed clearly marked out for leadership. In 1502 these had succeeded in
absorbing both the Cappers' and Hatters' Companies. In later Tudor and
early Stuart times the haberdashers formed one of the wealthier London
companies, occupying 'large, fayr and beautiful buildings' on London
Bridge and the 'south side of the Poultrie'. But they were unpopular:
denounced as 'rich men' bent on the 'destruction of pore people'. Their
attempt to control the supply of raw materials for felt-hatting as well
as the distribution of the finished product, brought them into conflict
with the increasing body of artisan feltmakers. These latter were at a
disadvantage, denied effectual representation in the haberdashers, yet
having, as they said, 'no government of themselves as other companies
have'. Nevertheless, the future lay with the feltmakers, Partly because
the haberdashers were considered merely traders, whereas 'the feltmakers
we must cherish well', since they alone 'by their misteries and faculties
doe bring in anie treasour'. Thus, when the latter made application to the
crown for a charter conferring on them the sole right to regulate their
craft, it was granted by James I in 1604. The struggle was not finally
ended for another half century. During this period the haberdashers were
strong enough to prevent the feltmakers from obtaining recognition as one
of the Livery Companies, which alone could confer the freedom of the City.
----
There's more on the machinations of the various Guilds, lobbying for
duties on beaver skins and trying to preserve rabbits which were a big
part of the trade, and shafting the French industry via cheap Canadian
beavers, being shafted in turn by the Dutch who were the beneficiaries
of a rort involving re-export of beaver... BUt it's all post period.
Silfren
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:21:23 -0500
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at thibault.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: hats and hatting
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> Note the colours of knitted caps, presumably they were not dyed at all
> as that would remove the waterproofness of the wool?
Not entirely. The water-resistance is partly due to the natural lanolin
in the wool. Even hand washing with a modern detergent doesn't remove
all of it, and you can still dye it.
Even if the lanolin was removed, one of the other things that makes wool
so great in the rain is its wooliness. There's lots of air in the
yarns, which insulate. And when it gets wet, it still keeps a lot of
that air, so it's still warm. Plus it absorbs a lot of water, which
keeps that water away from *you* which keeps you warm as well.
The Museum of London book on Dress Acccessories (or maybe it was the
Textiles one) has fragments of knitted stuff from around 1400. And I
think there's an extant cap somewhere.
--
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pré Argent
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:00:23 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Beret was Non-SCA Authenticity
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Are berets period?
> Stefan
Possibly. Beret derives from the Latin "burris" meaning hooded
cloak, so the word is old enough.
What we think of as a beret seems to originate in southern France. I
suspect that it originates in the maquis and garrigue along the
Mediterranean and back along the Pyrenees where a brimless hat might be an
advantage in the brush. Record of its spread and general use appears to
begin in the 18th Century.
An Italian variant of the word, biretta, describes a stiff cap with three or
four ridges across the crown commonly used by the Roman Catholic clergy
(black for priests, purple for bishops, red for cardinals).
Bear
From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
Date: April 19, 2006 3:59:49 PM CDT
To: Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] newly-republished hair & hat book
I thought some of our local costuming mavens or those interested in English personae might be interested to know that Dover is republishing _Women's Headdress and Hairstyles in England from A.D. 600 to the Modern Day_, by Georgine de Courtais, under the title _Women's Hats, Headdresses, and Hairstyles: With 453 Illustrations, Medieval to Modern_. I don't know anything about the book that isn't on the site, but some pages from it, including one of illustrations of Elizabethan hairstyles, are included in this week's Sampler <http://www.doverpublications.com/designsampler/0419/art6.htm>;.
Coblaith
From: Vicky Eisenstadt <alysounJ at gmail.com>
Date: July 14, 2009 1:07:01 PM CDT
To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tri-temp] hat storage
I have a clear plastic hardshell case that I keep the coronets in. I can see which ones are in which container, and grab them easily when I pack for events.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Dianne Russell<cat_herder at comcast.net> wrote:
> How do people store their SCA hats? All my veils/coifs I have in a plastic
> storage box, but now I'm starting to get a small collections of hats to go
> with my garb. Do you store them with the matching garb somehow, in hat
> boxes, on shelves, etc?
>
> Tamara
From: "Hawke" <ankashai at gmail.com>
Date: July 14, 2009 7:37:43 PM CDT
To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tri-temp] Re: hat storage
I've only got two SCA hats, neither of which I wear all that often ( I tend to buy them during wars, after sunburning myself for several days straight =D ). My straw hat hangs on the back of my door ( I've got an over-the-door hanger thingy ) ; my felt hat lives in the back of my car ( which I don't recommend, but it does give it a lovely 'worn in' quality =D ) If you mean coronets/ circlets , I've seen lots of people just use large tupperware containers. They're not period, or pretty, but they're waterproof and cheap and protective.
- Hawke
From: Aspasia <aspasia1490 at yahoo.com>
Date: July 15, 2009 3:06:33 PM CDT
To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tri-temp] hat storage
My sturdy hats I store in a plastic bag. The less sturdy I keep on a fake head until I need them, then carry in a box or on the head sitting on top of everything.
Maitresse Aspasia
From: "Coinneach" <goldworm at surfbest.net>
Date: September 11, 2009 12:29:40 PM CDT
To: <trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tri-temp] Re: hat storage
Unfortunately by the time ya get a hat box big enuff for a cavalier hat it takes up too much space. I just usually put the hat on top of everything else [besides, the feathers tend to smush in a box] I've found that humadors make nice pointy hat boxes [given to friends, not a worry of mine ;)
DON Coinneach Micha Moray
Protege to Master Iefan Colledig ap Dynfwal Abertawe
<the end>