raingear-msg - 2/15/10
Period raingear. waterproofing cloth. Felting or fulling wool for waterproofing.
NOTE: See also these files: felting-msg, cloaks-msg, fasteners-msg, headgear-msg, pants-msg, shoes-msg, p-shoes-msg, textiles-msg.
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From: krogers at moons.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca
Subject: Weaving a rain cloak
Date: 1 Nov 1993 13:33:27 -0700
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
Summary: How to weave a rain cloak?
Keywords: weaving, rain cloak
I would like some input on how to weave a reasonably rain proof full
length cloak. By that I mean something like what a sturdy one of
antiquity would have been like without resorting to modern "cheats" by
coating with some kind of fabric guard or lining it with GoreTex, etc.
I don't have any weaving equipment yet other than books which I've
been reading for several months now, so I'm a complete beginner in
real experience though conversant in most of the concepts. I know
that a servicable cloak will be one of my first major projects. I
also know that since it's the first real project that means I'll get
to do another one a couple years later when I know what I'm doing to
avoid all the mistakes I'll make on the first one, but that's a
different matter...
My current vague ideas are to weave a very heavy warp faced cloth out
of the oiliest dark colored wool available with the width being great
enough for a one-piece garment. Reasoning is as follows: the warp
will be running vertically on me so a warp face will enhance water to
run down and off. Heavy and oily wool are obvious points. One piece
construction (other than the hood) eliminates vulnerable seams for
water penetration. The dark color is my preference - black would be
best.
Due to my shoulder dimension I'll need a loom which can weave cloth
somewhat wider than the standard 45" if I want one piece construction.
Rather than resort to double width weaving, which looks like a real
hassle, I'll make (I'm building my own stuff) a wider loom. I know
people say 45" is about as wide as you can comfortably weave but I'll
bet these peole don't have 6'6" arm spans either; I expect I can weave
8-12" wider cloth at the same comfort level as they at 45". This is
assuming I can get wider reeds, or splice two together for my loom.
Shoot down or modify any or all of my ideas. Add new ones as fit.
I'm still in the theoretical phase as I won't have a full set of
weaving equipment built for another 6 months or so. Prime concern is
for the finished cloak to be serviceible in rainy and snowy weather.
The look should be plain, even rustic, not lordly. I'm not an SCAdian
but it should be something one of them with a lower social class
persona, say a reasonably well-to-do blacksmith, would own which is
why I'm cross posting this to the SCA news group. I don't care if I
smell like an old goat in it :-)
Any comments are welcome.
--
Keith Rogers
krogers at moons.sim.es.com
From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Weaving a rain cloak
Date: 2 Nov 1993 00:53:01 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Keywords: weaving, rain cloak
Greetings from Fiacha,
Primarily to Keith Rogers,
We had a long discussion about woolen sails a while that was enlightening
and potentially relevant.
1. Forget warp faced cloth and ignore seams. If you make a one piece cloak,
it will be semi circular and drape on the bias at the soulders. The
direction of the fabric will change front to back. Your theoretical
advantage of warp faced cloth will exist at the front and nowhere else.
To get this notional advantage would require piecing the cloak together
and so having lots of seams.
Thus it is a waste of time to produce warp faced cloth.
2. While it is possible that the seams will leak more than anywhere else,
it is not a relevant consideration. I assume that you are thinking of the
behaviour of modern, waterproof, fabrics where the stiching of the seam
breaks the integrity of the fabric and so lets water through at that point.
Period fabrics are not, in general, waterproof. The stiching cannot break
a non-existant integrity.
3. The exception is oilcloth, a cloth saturated in oil to the point where
water can no longer pentrate. Seams in oilcloth end up being waterproof
because the oil migrates into the seam thread too.
On the other hand, you do not want to make an oilcloth cloak. Oilcloth is
a serious fire hazard, quite apart from the oil migrating into whatever
you are wearing underneath the cloak and ruining in.
4. The objections to oilcloth apply to any form of grease in the wool.
5. Also, when the cloak gets warm, it will have a distinct aroma, with little
chance of the aroma being considered to be pleasant.
6. The grease would need to be reapplied at frequent intervals. The mongols
used milk to waterproof their felts and replaced the milk every three
rainfalls.
So, what is the alternative. A well to do blacksmith should be able to afford
a leather cloak for foul weather. A sheepskin with the fleece on the inside,
or a series of such sewn together would be excellent. The leather could even
be oiled (lightly) and the fleece would buffer the oil from your clothes.
If you must weave something, then go ahead. Weave as tightly as you can and
then felt the resulting cloth. Brush the surface to raise a pile and then shear
it as close to the fabric as possible. Do this two or three times. The felting
will thicken the fabric and close up the holes between the weap and the weft.
While the resulting fabric will not be water proof, it will shed the majority
of any rail. Add a loosely woven liner and very little of the absorbed rain
will migrate into your clothes. Remember that the primary advantage of woolen
fabric is that it will keep you warm even when it is wet.
In bad weather, you should wear a detachable hood on top of the cloak. This
will provide an extra layer or two of fabric across the shoulders, usually
the first place for rain to soak through.
Although the most common weave for a cloak is tabby, a 1/2 or a 2/2 twill would
be perfectly reasonable. Consider weaving a houndstooth check or a herringbone
or a birds eye twill. Lack of status is not an excuse for poor clothes.
Practical considerations for loom design. Reeds can be obtained in any length
you might deisre and tend to sell by the foot. The practical limit on loom
size is not your shoulders but the size of the room where it will live. The
limiting factor is usually the size of the room where the loom wull live. You
need to be able to get to all parts at any time. The tends to mean 3' foot
clearance on all four sides. Your design may let you block off one side but
floor space is still a consideration. Mounting a fly shuttle system to cope
with a wide design may be practical but will a foot on each side for the
shuttle boxes (the early period solution was to put a shuttle thrower on
either side of the loom as well as the weaver who worked the pedals and the
reed).
Regardless of the width of the loom, you should also expect the cloth to lose
width in shrinking (even without the felting steps). A single piece cloak
would need to be as wider as you are tall (to allow for a hem and a neck
opening, plus at least 20% for shrinkage. For me this would seem to require
a 75" to 80" loom (making the loom 8' wide overall and needing at least 11'x12'
of floor space). I would rather weave length and piece the cloak together.
I hope you build your loom and tell us how it worked out. By the way, do you
have anyone spinning the yarn for you yet? Getting the wool spun is a whole
nother problem.
Fiacha
From: karplus at cse.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Weaving a rain cloak
Date: 2 Nov 1993 03:34:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
A densely woven oily wool cloak should shed a fair amount of rain, but
will never be completely water-proof. There is a Irish design that has
locks of wool hanging out the top surface of the cloak, providing a
thick surface for shedding rain. I suspect that it will shed rain
longer, and be warmer when wet, but weigh a lot. The Japanese straw
raincoats also work on the principle of having a fabric close to the
body covered by a very long "nap" that sheds water.
You have to pay particular attention to the seams, since that is
where the cloack will leak first. Shoulder seams are probably not a
good idea in a cloak that you want to be water-resistant, unless you
have a separate hood that covers the shoulders (a good idea in any
case). Brushing the wool to form a nap may be a good idea, but be
sure the nap runs down, not up---you want to shed water, not catch it.
If you have a 6'6" reach, you should be able to weave about 6" wider
than me. I have no trouble with a 45" loom, but can't weave 60".
You should be able to do at least 50", but 60" is questionable, unless
you sit with your chest right against the breast beam, and the fell
line real close to the beam also.
Long reeds are available. I even have an 8 foot reed for my big loom.
If you are building your own loom, you almost certainly have the
skills needed to build a fly-shuttle. Look around for drawings or
plans, or look at the flyshuttles on existing looms. Not only do fly
shuttles greatly increase the width you can weave, but they usually
make for more even selvedges and faster weaving (if you have a good
end-feed shuttle). Of course, if you are trying for a medieval
re-creation, fly shuttles are out, since they were invented in the
mid-1700s. But I suspect that a lot of your loom parts are going to
be that modern, or more so, so rejecting flyshuttles may be a little
too purist.
--
Kevin Karplus karplus at ce.ucsc.edu
From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Weaving a rain cloak
Date: 2 Nov 93 10:05:44
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.
Fiacha said
"you need to be able to get to all parts at any time, this tends to
mean 3' fott clearance on all four sides"
For large floor looms, if you are willing to crawl around inside the
loom you don't need clearance outside. i have an old Andrew loom,
(floor loom with overslung batten) The loom occupies something like a
five foot cube. The left side is six inches from a wall, (which just
gives me room to draw the curtains between loom and wall) The right
side is touching a chest of drawers for the back two feet. The back of
the loom is four inches clear of the wall (which just gives room to
extract the pegs holding the warp beam in) The front of the loom
touches my bed which I sit on to weave (the bed is unusually high, so
works OK as a loom bench)
To further add to the crowding, I have fixed a shelf to the top of the
loom at the back which takes my boxes of yarn, shuttles, spare reeds,
hooks etc.
The bedroom looks very crowded, but it is perfectly possible to thread
up the loom by sitting on a stool with its legs stuck between the
treadles. If threads break I crawl underneath the warp at the back
and fix them from below. Similarly if I want to adjust the tie up I
crawl inside the loom and fix it from inside. I suspect that I would
have to climb into the loom to get at parts even if I had a mass of
space around it, though it would probably be easier being able to
crawl in one side and out the other instead of having to reverse!
I have a few woolen cloaks, some are dark age square types and some
more modern tailored designs. I have found that a heavy fulled wool
will keep the rain off almost indefinately. I have not found seams a
problem, but I used run and fell type seams, (the sort you get on the
outside legs of jeans) Maybe this is a particularly waterproof type of
seam as it has many layers of cloth.
I have a viking style tent (An A frame design with the poles made of
wooden beams), this tent has a woolen cover and has stood up to a
force seven gale, with accompanying rain. It was pitched inside
Harlech castle, in a particularly dumb location: the rain and wind
whipped off the sea, hit the front wall of the castle, came over it, and
was funnelled into the area by the castle gate. Guess where we pitched
the tent? that's right bang in the middle of the wind tunnel by the
castle gate. The relevance of all this to cloaks is that the tent
cover was heavy wool which was fulled (felted) on one side. Inside the
tent was completely dry. The gale carried on overnight and got through
some of the modern tents to soak their occupants.
It looked as though the wool might have been acting as a wick, drawing
the water to ground, you could touch the insid eof the tent without
water coming through.
The woolen cloth the tent was made of had never been washed so it
probably had some oil left from the cloths production, but it
certainly wasn't dripping in oil. A friend of mine has a guernsey
jumper which is oiled wool. The jumper doesn't smell or shed oil, but
he claims it is waterproof. I don't know what the oil used is. One of
my square capes has been washed often enough to lose any traces of oil
the wool may have contained and is still up to an hour in the rain, (I
haven't tried it for longer) so I suspect that heavy wool is so
waterproof on its own that you don't need to add much oil (unlike
cotton which needs to be almost dripping in oil or wax to be proofed)
I would definately recommend twill weaves not plain tabby as twill
gives you a denser weave. If you are contemplating a seperate hood I
would suggest trying to weave that first so that you can make your
first learning mistakes on a smaller piece and waste less time and
yarn.
The irish cloaks with locks of wool woven in are still worn by
shepherds in other areas of Europe, Apparently you can stay out as
long as the sheep do and stay dry. locks of wool are taken from the
raw fleece and threaded into the warp along with the weft. On designs
I have seen they are not threaded into every single row. there was a
poster on this group who had woven a sample like this. Apparently it
is incredibly slow and probably not good as a first project.
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca
From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966)
Subject: Re: Weaving a rain cloak
Keywords: weaving, rain cloak
Organization: Loral Data Systems
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:03:10 GMT
In article <2b3rqn$7r5 at moons.sim.es.com> krogers at moons.sim.es.com writes:
>I would like some input on how to weave a reasonably rain proof full
>length cloak. By that I mean something like what a sturdy one of
>antiquity would have been like without resorting to modern "cheats" by
>coating with some kind of fabric guard or lining it with GoreTex, etc.
>
>My current vague ideas are to weave a very heavy warp faced cloth out
>of the oiliest dark colored wool available with the width being great
>enough for a one-piece garment. Reasoning is as follows: the warp
>will be running vertically on me so a warp face will enhance water to
>run down and off. Heavy and oily wool are obvious points. One piece
>construction (other than the hood) eliminates vulnerable seams for
>water penetration. The dark color is my preference - black would be
>best.
>
>Shoot down or modify any or all of my ideas. Add new ones as fit.
>
>Any comments are welcome.
>--
>Keith Rogers
>krogers at moons.sim.es.com
Greetings Keith,
Here is a tidbit to add to your pool of information on historical waterproofing.
In Early America (Pre-Rev. war) the Eastern Longhunters used boiled Linseed Oil
to waterproof backpacks, rifle cases, tents and sleepingbags. Also Kapotes are
made from wool blankets and do a fairly good job of repelling water.
Erik.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Kreyling | Master Erik of Telemark O.L.,O.P.
kreyling at world.lds.loral.com | Shire of Brineside Moor
Sarasota,Fl. USA | Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca
From: jill at super.org (Amelia J. Scott-Piner)
Subject: Re: Weaving a rain cloak
Keywords: weaving, rain cloak
Organization: Supercomputing Research Center (Bowie, MD)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:50:54 GMT
In article <2b3rqn$7r5 at moons.sim.es.com> krogers at moons.sim.es.com writes:
>I would like some input on how to weave a reasonably rain proof full
>length cloak. By that I mean something like what a sturdy one of
>antiquity would have been like without resorting to modern "cheats" by
>coating with some kind of fabric guard or lining it with GoreTex, etc.
>
>My current vague ideas are to weave a very heavy warp faced cloth out
>of the oiliest dark colored wool available with the width being great
>enough for a one-piece garment. Reasoning is as follows: the warp
>will be running vertically on me so a warp face will enhance water to
>run down and off. Heavy and oily wool are obvious points. One piece
>construction (other than the hood) eliminates vulnerable seams for
>water penetration. The dark color is my preference - black would be
>best.
>
Have you thought of a boiled wool cloak? It wouldn't have the
goat odor of an oily wool, but it would be a more sturdy fabric.
Hopefully, you would want to clean this cloak at some point. Weaving
it of a greasy wool that you would eventually wash all the grease out of
seems counterproductive. Boiled wool is a fabric created when a closely
woven cloth is shocked in hot water, allowing it to felt and shrink.
I've never done this before myself, but I have seen articles on it. The
wool draws up and you end up with a cloth that is about 2/3's or a 1/2
of the original cloth dimension. The resulting cloth is heavy, thick, and
weighs and wears like iron.
Your idea about a warp faced garment is interesting. I would think
that you'd be better off looking for a tightly spun yarn for this rather
than a heavy and oily one. The oils would wash out, and heavy yarns make
me think that you're talking about thick yarns. Thick yarns may be more
absorbent than thin, tightly spun yarns simply because there is more
exposed surface area on the yarn that is thick that doesn't have enough
hard twist to repel water. Thin yarns packed together in a warp-faced
weave would not only repel water better (my belief that's not been tested
mind you) but would be a trifle more flexible.
I would add a lining of the heavy boiled wool to the warp-faced
cloak for extra warmth and protection.
>Due to my shoulder dimension I'll need a loom which can weave cloth
>somewhat wider than the standard 45" if I want one piece construction.
>Rather than resort to double width weaving, which looks like a real
>hassle, I'll make (I'm building my own stuff) a wider loom. I know
>people say 45" is about as wide as you can comfortably weave but I'll
>bet these peole don't have 6'6" arm spans either; I expect I can weave
>8-12" wider cloth at the same comfort level as they at 45". This is
>assuming I can get wider reeds, or splice two together for my loom.
You're lucky to be able to reach that far. I have long arms
for someone my size, but I've found out that 36" is about my limit for
comfortable weaving. I could weave widths up to 45-50", but it would
be uncomfortable and I'm not into martyring myself for my hobby, yet :-).
Reeds can be ordered in any size, shape, or reasonable dentage. The
smallest dentage that I've heard of is 25 dents per inch. I just ordered
a 39" wide 7-dent-per-inch stainless steel reed for my Schact Mighty Wolf.
jill at super.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Amelia Jill Scott-Piner
jill at super.org
Bowie, Maryland USA
From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Weaving a rain cloak
Date: 4 Nov 1993 18:10:41 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Keywords: weaving, rain cloak
Greetings from Fiacha
There was thread on the Celtic list not so long ago about waulking songs. These
are songs sung while felting woolen cloth. Tradition has it that this was
womens work and only opened to men in Nova Scotia in the last 100 years.
However, one felts the cloth before cutting it simply because there is no
guarantee that it will shrink to exactly the size you expect. My suggestion is
that you clear a table and cover it was a plastic sheet. Also expect puddles
to form on the floor. Spread the cloth out on the table and call up as many
friends as can comfortably work at the table. Saturate the wool and add a
lubricant/degreasing agent. The traditional agent is stale urine but flakes
of pure soap may be more acceptable to you and your friends. Knead the fabric
for a couple of hours, then rinse it and let it dry.
Also look up references to fulling as well as felting.
To raise a nap, you need to comb the surface with teasels or an equivalent. An
equivalent is the sticky half of a piece of velcro.
Fiacha
From: krekuta at tor.hookup.net (Kel Rekuta)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: waterproofing
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:43:22 GMT
Organization: Kilmallen Consulting
In article nsalzma1 at cc.swarthmore.edu (Noah Salzman) writes:
>Does anyone out here have any suggestions on how I could go about
>waterproofing a heavy canvas for use in making a cloak or possibly some
>other garment. I would use leather, but I want to make sure that I can sew
>before I invest a whole lot of money in decent leather. Any suggestions
>would be great.
>Noah
My Lord,
Try any of the commercially available greases, waxes or preps for sealing
fabric shoes and garments against the elements. Avoid silicone preparations,
because they all dry out thread and cause it to become brittle. (Alcohol based
solvents) There are a selections of preps available in a lot of sporting /
camping shops from "AQUA SEAL" ( no relation to me!) that seem to work.
Also, most good western apparel shops carry this waxy stuff for recoating
Australian full length riding coats. It is a bit $$$ but boy, does it seal.
Doesn't rub off on you either.
You are welcome to email me for more info, shoe and garment care products are
part of my mundane work. I'd be happy to help.
Best of luck.
From: david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: WaterproofingBetter
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 00:09:00 -0400
Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245
BM> I've heard of people using stuff like Thompson's Water Seal for
BM>waterproofing their canvas tents, etc. Your impressions?
The absolute best waterproofing and stainproofing for fabric is
ScotchGuard(tm) spray - used in much greater quantity than recommended on
the can.
A half-circle ultra-heavy wool cloak requires a can - which will keep it
clean and the wearer dry for about four years including five wars worth of
sitting around the firepit on wet grass. NO GRASS STAINS
The best method of keeping papers safe and dry during an outdoor event:
1) take one Lands End(tm) original canvas carryall attache or whatever they
call that bag these days.
2) Spray inside and out with ScotchGuard.
3) Take the rest of the war worrying about something else.
Spray the canvas of a director's chair with a good soaking of ScotchGuard.
Watch the rain.
When it stops, shake chair a little and sit down dry.
For extra protection, save the Thompson's for WOOD, not fabric.
Of Note: Drycleaning, which your cloak will eventually will need, removes
ScotchGuard. Buy more and you're good for another half-decade!
NOW BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION:
Unless you go to a 3M wholesaler and buy ScotchGuard for Fabric in a
paintcan and apply with an airgun, you will not be able to afford a full
waterproofing job for a canvas pavillion. Further - if you are going to do
that job, borrow an air pack or SCUBA gear for the inside coat. Keep a fire
extinguisher handy, or do the outside, allow to dry, then turn the tent
inside-out.
David M. Razler
(Aleksandr the Traveller doesn't have any idea what this message is about)
[david.razler at compudata.com]
From: NSRIZ9923 at alpha.nsula.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Waterproofing
Date: 22 Nov 1994 18:38:02 -0500
Organization: The Internet
David Razler commented that scotchguard is the ultimate in waterproofing, and
to a certain extent he is correct. It will repeal small amounts of water,
but it is also water soluable. That is why you must rescotchguard rugs when
you have them steam cleaned, that goes for drapes or any product that is treated
with scotchguard.
This bit of information was given to me by a scotchguard representative
at a trade show that I attended while I was working as an interior designer.
So if you want to use scotchguard as a waterproofing agent go ahead just don't
wash it.
David Rizzico
AKA Sir Godfried
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jebe at netcom.com (Marc G. Lamb)
Subject: Re: Wet-Weather Cloaks (fabrics)
Organization: Stately Wayne Manor
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 16:30:49 GMT
In article <3gdnca$nhn at mozz.unh.edu> jkf at christa.unh.edu (John K Fraser) writes:
> I would like to procure or manufacture material similar/identical
>to the "Australian Outback" duster coats that I've seen. This material
>(oilcloth?) would seem to be what I am looking for. It appears to be as
>water-resistant/proof as my vinyl sou'wester, but not as obnoxious :-}.
> I know other use wool, and it is fairly adequate, but when I want
>to be dry, I want dry.
> Anyway, I would like to find out from others where I can get this oil-
>cloth-type of fabric, or, even better, how I might manufacture it.
>Calum Fraisel
>Barony of Stonemarche
>--
>Jay Fraser
>jkf at christa.unh.edu
Don't know about making oilcloth, but I have seen advertisments for this
stuff in my sewing magazines. Several contacts for you:
Allen Weaving Co.
501 W. Fayette
Syracuse, NY 13204
$1 will get you samples of oilcloth imported from Scotland
Two companies that don't mention oilcloth in the ads, but specialize in
outdoor fabrics:
The Rainshed
707 NW 11th Street
Corvallis, OR 97330
503-753-8900
catalog $1
Green Pepper
3918 West 1st
Eugene, OR 97402
503-345-6665
catalog $2
Also, "Threads" (a popular sewing magazine) did an article several years ago
about sewing Austrailian drover's coats. I don't have the issue # for you,
check your local library. I believe the article included sources for
oilcloth, as well as tips for working with it.
Hope this helps.
Kyla
(using a borrowed account. E-mail to BSKyla at aol.com)
From: gbrent at rschp1.anu.EDU.AU (Geoffrey Brent)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Wet-Weather Fabrics
Date: 28 Jan 1995 20:27:47 -0500
Organization: The Internet
I believe the fabric mentioned is Drizabone (along with Crocodile Dundee
and Tas, leading the Australian cultural invasion of the US :-) It's
very popular for wet-weather outfits here. Unfortunately, I don't know
how to get it in cloak-sized chunks.
Here is an address that _might_ be worth writing to :
Driza-Bone pty ltd
104 River Hills Road Eagleby
Queensland
Australia
Or look up an American address. When I was in Arizona (about a month
ago) the tour guides wore Driza-bones.
--
Geoffrey the Quiet
(gbrent at rsc.anu.edu.au, gbrent at laplace.anu.edu.au)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jebe at netcom.com (Marc G. Lamb)
Subject: Re: Wet-Weather Cloaks (fabric)
Organization: Stately Wayne Manor
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 04:05:49 GMT
In article <8A29023.02DE0066AD.uuout at compudata.com> david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) writes:
>
>Calum:
> Shhh, I'll tell you a secret. Wool, good tight-wove wool, and LOTS of
>Scotchguard.
> Aleksandr the Traveller who sometimes cheats
> [david.razler at compudata.com]
And another secret: buy more wool than you need, and throw it in the washing
machine with lots of soap & hot water. Throw it in the dryer. Do this 2 or 3
times. Yes, it will shrink, and thus become even more tightly woven. It will
also get soft and fluffy and water-repellant. (Obviously, this works best
with 100% wool, and not so good with a wool/polyester or acrylic blend.) This
process is sometimes called "felting". Period sources refer to a
wool-finishing process called "fullering". I *think* it may be a similar
process.
Kyla
(using a borrowed account. E-mail to BSKyla at aol.com)
From: bubba at hal.ludd.luth.se (U.J|rgen \hman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: The ultimate Wet-Weather fabric
Date: 1 Feb 1995 19:03:09 +0100
Organization: Lulea University Computer Society - Ludd
Greetings all..Ulf here.
The ultimate wet-weather fabric, since it's windproof, waterrepellant, and
last but not least PERIOD, is a fabric called vadmal(swedish). I don't know
the English word for it but it's wool that's not or only partially washed
so the fat/grease in the wool remains. Then they weave fabric of it and I
believe they felt it in a way so you can't see the threads in the fabric and
to make it "sealed".
I've made both tunic, trousers, cloak and a hood from it. I'm actually wearing
the trousers in the winter, and believe me...we have WINTERS here. I've also
wearing them, putting them through a durability test, when I'm out practicing
during my education. I'm soon a pre-school teacher so I'm at a kindergarten/day-
care-center where we spend lots of time outside in the snow.
And though it's wool it's like a medieval gore-tex. It breathes, it stands both
wind and water and it looks great.
Try it....you'll love it.
Ulf
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ulf Mj|dtunga(Mjoedtunga, Meadtongue) *Canton of Frostheim
*(where frogs live NOT)
Vert, in pale a crescent inverted *Barony of Nordmark
and a Thor's hammer argent. *Kingdom of Drachenwald
bubba at ludd.luth.se -=- U.J|rgen \hman -=- U.Joergen Oehman(NHL-Spelling)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: Wendy Chadwick (2/1/95)
To: Mark Harris
RE>Wet-Weather Cloaks (fabric)
Hi Stefan,
You should be able to get polar fleece - at least a small selection at
most good fabric stores. This is the part that will keep you warm. It
comes in several weights . 1000 will block the wind, will repell water
2000 is windproof and stretchs
300 is heavy weight,200 medium weight,100 medium to light weight. THe
hundreds series also can be gotten as a recycled fabric.
For Waterproof outer there are lots of fabrics Supplex especially the
"laundered" variety can look like cotton.
The best source I know of is THe Rainshed 707 NW 11th , Corvallis, OR 97330
503-753-8900
They have a great catalog and sell swatch sets for a reasonable cost.
Good luck
Irene von Schmetterling
Wendy Chadwick
From: caradoc at enet.net (John Groseclose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: waterproof fabric example
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 01:39:52 -0700
james at nucleus.com (James Prescott) wrote:
>Here's some actual experience with lightweight wool.
>Two summers ago at our C.P. Championship we had a very wet and windy
>rainstorm that lasted all night and well into the next day. There was
>about two inches of standing water in the long grass, and many tents
>had been flattened.
>I put on a light wool cloak with a cotton (or 100% unknown fibres)
>lining and went out into the storm to strike camp and pavilion and
>load it into the wagon. Probably took me the best part of an hour
>bent over in the driving rain. I expected to be utterly soaked.
>I was incredibly surprised when I slowed down because I had finished
>to find that, while I was soaked from the knees down, and while the
>hem of the cloak was waterlogged, I was bone dry underneath the
>cloak from mid-thigh right up to the neck.
>It wasn't any special wool weave, either, and had no protective sprays
>or anything else applied to it.
>I had worn the light cloak because I didn't want my personal heavy-duty
>cloak (a heavy wool suiting with Scotchgard) to get wet!
>So, I'd heartily recommend whatever wool weave that light cloak was
>made of.
A number of years ago, I wandered over to the San Bernardino Renaissance
Fair wearing a breacan feile of a nice wool twill. It *poured* that day. I
unpinned my shoulder, brought the top part of the kilt over my head, and
continued wandering around the Faire.
At the end of about four hours in the rain, my hair was still dry (except
on my forehead... The cloth I'd made the breacan feile out of wasn't quite
wide enough to provide any coverage forward of my ears.)
Even my sleeves were mostly dry. The cuffs got *soaked* and the cloth
wicked the damp about halfway up my forearms.
Most importantly, I was *warm*, while most of the people around me were
shivering and wet.
If you're not allergic to the wool, I highly recommend it.
--
John Groseclose <caradoc at enet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: KNGORMAN at ARTSPAS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (KATHLEEN GORMAN)
Subject: Re: waterproof fabric example
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:39:17 GMT
ekenny at gandalf.ca (Erin Kenny GMSI) writes:
> I am allergic to wool (and fur, feathers, etc). I still need
> to make a cloak that is warm and waterproof, but I would like
> it to look (and preferably be) period.
> Any serious suggestions?
>Claricia / Erin
Well I've only made one cloak (of melton a type of wool but one I don't find
too prickly and which I haven't seriously tested in the rain) but you can
consider these options:
wool lined with something non-allergenic (this may not be practical
depending on the severity of your allergy)
something that looks like wool but isn't, I've seen blankets that are very
similar to wool blankets, one or two of them could be used
leather, degree of waterproofness would probably depend on the type of
leather (ask an expert) but I know it would be _expensive_
two layers of something else (cotton perhaps) with nylon or some other
modern but waterproof fabric inbetween
are there other options for outerwear for your period? I know there is a
coat that is proper for Norse types like myself. It is usually made
out of wool as well but that can be changed again to something wool-
like.
Good searching to you
Eyrny
kngorman at artspas.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
From: afn03234 at usenet.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: waterproof fabric exa
Date: 20 Feb 1995 13:08:22 GMT
Organization: Alachua County Freenet
Todd Riggz (todd.riggz at alley.com) wrote:
: EK> I am allergic to wool (and fur, feathers, etc). I still need
: EK> to make a cloak that is warm and waterproof, but I would like
: EK> it to look (and preferably be) period.
: EK>Claricia / Erin
: I don't know if you can find it, but "Thinsalate", the stuff in gloves
: nowadays would keep ya warn, if you could find it. Of course this is
: just a theory. I know, it sounds lame. :-}
Well, if you are allergic to wool, etc, I've seen numerous references to
cloaks and hoods of leather in my researching of the craft guilds of our
time span. A good modern chrome tanned leather treated with a healthy
dose of sealer, or a more historically accurate oil-tanned or
oil-combination tanned light leather lined with cotton muslin would be
quite warm in cold weather, but would breath enough to be fairly
comfortable in warmer but rainy weather. Not the cheapest solution, but
quite effective.
--
al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu or roncharlotte at delphi.com
From: ldhaldan at aol.com (Ld HALDAN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oilcloth, How-To needed
Date: 21 Jul 1995 07:18:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
First you sew the cotton material into the shape you want it. Tack it up
on the side of a barn or other flat surface (preferably in the sun.).
Coat it with linseed oil. let dry. repeat. repeat. repeat. When the
linseed oil dries it polermerizes and stays in the cloth.
Hope this helps
-Haldan
Lord Haldan Shieldwrecker /Barony of Osprey / Kingdom of Meridies
** Per pale sable and or a lion rampant counterchanged
within a bordure embattled checky gules and argent**
From: dickeney at access4.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Headwear at Pennsic
Date: 30 Jul 1996 20:01:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Gale Storm Latzko <tempest at netaxs.com> wrote:
>I hope the good gentles of the Rialto will be able to give similar
>guidance to a problem at the other end of the body -- what should one
>wear on one's head at Pennsic?
...
I also recommend bringing a hooded tappert (tabard) (essentially a poncho)
for those times when it is not sunny. :) I made one years ago from a
rubber lined brocade curtain; I lined the inside and discovered that it
not only kept the rain out and looked reasonably good (being totally
authentic except for the hidden rubber), it was also warm enough to keep
me warm on cold nights, while being breezy enough to be bearable in warm
rain.
-- Tamar the Gypsy
I heard about the Pour, but I experienced the Sprinkle
From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Capes
Date: 7 May 1997 15:44:28 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
For a warmer, more windproof, less prone to ripping, cape: full the material
before cutting out the cape! (given that it is not a wool treated to prevent
a natural process...)
I once bought the end of a bolt of upholstry fabric, wool blend, $1 yard,
*nasty* coating on the back, (at $1 a yard I would have had a tartan ground
cloth if nothing else), took a piece and washed it. BINGO the coating washed
off and the piece fulled a bit. So down to the laundrymat and $3 in quarters
in the GonzoMegaDeath washer and I had yards and yards of much softer
more wind resistant plaid which I wear doubled as a simple rectangular cloak
with a penannular pin, or use as a blanket, or as a sunshade, or a tablecloth,
or a toga, (*don't* ask!), or a ground cloth, or a....
Now what to do with all this heavy chartruse *silk* that showed up in
our neighbor's dumpster....
wilelm "au natural" the smith
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:03:44 -0700
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: weaving discussion off shoo
Esteemed Lord Stefan (Mark Harris) wrote, amongst other things:
> I thought this was a neat idea. But the material I bought for this didn't
> work. It was a wool blanket-like material. I had been assured it was wool
> and it burned like wool. But all it did in multiple washing was to shed and
> shed and shed. It did shrink a little, but mostly it left little fuzzy blobs.
> I gave up. Someday I want to try again becuase I could use a water-resistant
> cloak. But wool is expensive to experiment on, especially with the yards and
> yards I need for a cloak. Any one done this?
>
> Stefan li Rous
I suspect from your description that the blanket was of a woolen type
yarn-- and a *really loose* woolen, at that. Machines can get away with
a lot of stuff a handweaver would never dare try. ;) What you'd want for
this sort of fulled effect is a blanket or cloth more of a worsted yarn,
but not a yarn that's so tightly spun that the wool fibers won't grab
themselves when put into the washing machine. For non-spinning laymen,
that means you want a fabric that the weaving structure is plainly
visible, and that the threads contained therein aren't too hairy
(woolen), but then, they're not like suit wool (completely smooth and
lustrous) on the other end of the worsted spectrum.
I read somewhere that Irish brats were made of wool still in the grease,
with locks of raw wool tucked into the fabric when woven-- and the
outside of the cloth where the shaggy locks hung out were oiled (with
what, I haven't a clue!)-- the combination of these characteristics made
a waterproof garment extremely practical in a drizzly climate. That
would take a handwoven cloth for starters, though.
Stefan, what about buying a couple of woolen cloth pieces from the local
fabric store, sending them through the washing machine, and seeing what
you get? While this *could* be an expensive experiment, you would be
able to see what the effects of fulling would be on your proposed cloak
fabric without investing, say, in 10 yards or more at $25/yd. If I were
doing this, I'd pick out about three to five different attractive bolts
and get a 1/4 yard piece. I'd keep some of the cloth out of the machine
to determine shrink rate, which would allow to project yardage for the
Real Thing.
incidentally, I've heard that buying woolens in the early spring (when
the fabric stores are gearing up for summer stuff) is the best time-- is
that when the sales hit? Southern Californian stores just don't seem to
have a lot of nice wool on hand...(grumpgrumpgrump)..at least, not when
*I* am looking for some!
ciorstan
From: bast at access4.digex.net (Red-Jaguar)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pensic Period Wet Weather Gear
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:05:43 GMT
Jennifer Guy <jen-guy at home.com> wrote:
>Sorry, my earlier reply was off the cuff and sent accidentally because
>the rugrats were clamoring for something. :-)
snip
>As for what to wear when it's actually still raining, wool is good.
>Have something warm around to wear, the rain is chilling at war. And
>make sure it's *short* or perishable/for war only, I know so many
>people who can't get the Pennsic mud out from the hems of what would
>otherwise be pretty nice garb.
One piece of rain-gear garb I have that is a lifesaver:
My Oiled Elkskin Cape.
worked so well that Pensic it rained the whole time I made an Oiled
Elkskin Cloak for cold weather camping in the damp.
I just bought an elkskin, cut out the cape (trying to use all the skin)
then oiled it with some leather oil. (some folk use snowseal....)
Water just rolls off of it. It keeps the torso mostly dry (well you do get
a bit damp... but no worse than being a bit sweaty)
That & silly pants tied ABOVE the knee.. sandals.. & I was happily
splishing through puddles & mud. Yeah.. from the knees down I was wet &
muddy... but still comfy.
Jaguar
Hoping for NO crayfish in the firepit this Pennsic.
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:30:34 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: SC - raingear
--- Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> wrote:
> My current solution is a cloak lined with a military blanket and
> heavily Scotch guarded (actually a competing brand).
Once I struck camp in a drenching downpour. It had been raining
since 6 pm the previous evening. There was 1.5 inches of standing
water amid the grass, and I was out there in the heavy rain for at
least half an hour.
I wore my clothes-least-likely-to-be-ruined-by-rain, namely my
oldest garb covered with a medium-length light wool cloak with an
ordinary white cotton liner, neither layer treated with anything
special.
To my utter surprise, when I disrobed inside a cook shack in order
to change into dry clothes, I found that I was completely dry from
mid-thigh upwards! And the cloak, while wet, wasn't a soggy mess.
I'm not sure I'd trust the combination if my life was at stake,
but clearly simple wool with a cotton liner has some excellent
rain resistant properties.
- --
All my best,
Thorvald Grimsson / James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> (PGP user)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:13:25 +0100 (MET)
From: UlfR <parlei-sc at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: SC - raingear
On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, James Prescott wrote:
> I'm not sure I'd trust the combination if my life was at stake,
> but clearly simple wool with a cotton liner has some excellent
> rain resistant properties.
Ditch the cotton liner and I would. I wear my viking age clothes on 10
day no-equipment-but-the-clothes-on-your-body survival treks.
/UlfR
- --
Par Leijonhufvud
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:15:47 -0600
From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sweat shirts and sweat pants are an important
addition to your wardrobe
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 7:13 AM, <bronwynmgn at aol.com> wrote:
<<< I started making wool overgowns to go over my lighter weight clothes.
Heavy wool repels water beautifully with no special treatment. If it does
get wet, it still keeps you warm. >>>
Yes it does but my problem with a wool over dress or cloak is the wicking
factor. if you're sloshing around the water wicks right up to your knees
and then nothing keeps you dry and warm. The sweat pants can be hiked up a
little so as not to be subject to wicking.
<<< Wool socks are a godsend when your feet are wet; you feel the initial rush
of cold water but within a moment or two, it is hard to tell if your feet
are still wet because they are warm again. >>>
I agree - in the army I wore wool socks even though they dried out my skin
and made me itchy - it was still better than blisters or other yucky foot
things.
Shoshanna
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:22:26 -0400
From: "tudorpot at gmail.com" <tudorpot at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sweat shirts and sweat pants are an important
addition to your wardrobe
<<< Yes it does but my problem with a wool over dress or cloak is the wicking
factor. if you're sloshing around the water wicks right up to your knees
and then nothing keeps you dry and warm. The sweat pants can be hiked up a
little so as not to be subject to wicking. >>>
I just pull the skirt up thru my belt so that the hem is shorter.
Theadora
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 13:37:13 -0400
From: "Barbara Dodge" <awench1 at cox.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sweat shirts and sweat pants are an
importantaddition to your wardrobe
For years I have used Scotchguard or some other water repellant that is safe
for fabrics on the hems of my gowns, cloaks, and even the hems of pants.
Spray the bottom 3-4 inches of the garment (be sure to follow manufacturer's
instructions), and Ta-Da! No wicking of moisture up your garment. This is
especially nice when stopping in the privy. I'm sure most of you ladies
have experienced the nasty sensation of wet skirts brushing up against the
back of your legs, UGH!
Felicia
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 07:37:04 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sweat shirts and sweat pants are an important
addition to your wardrobe
Susan Lin wrote:
<<< Yes it does but my problem with a wool over dress or cloak is the wicking
factor. if you're sloshing around the water wicks right up to your knees
and then nothing keeps you dry and warm. The sweat pants can be hiked up a
little so as not to be subject to wicking. >>>
That may suggest that your overgown is a little long for its intended
purpose-- or that you need some pattens.
Personally, I have a hip-length woollen coat to put on over my other
clothes.
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:00:02 -0400
From: bronwynmgn at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sweat shirts and sweat pants are an important
addition to your wardrobe
From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>
<<Yes it does but my problem with a wool over dress or cloak is the wicking
factor. if you're sloshing around the water wicks right up to your knees
and then nothing keeps you dry and warm. The sweat pants can be hiked up a
little so as not to be subject to wicking. >>
That's odd, I don't find I have that problem.
In fact, usually the first time that I find out that the bottom few inches of my skirt are wet is when I hike them up to use the toilet (sorry if TMI)
I don't think I've ever had the water wick up as far as my knees; 4 inches at most. Since I've got knee-high wool hose underneath, the wet skirts don't touch my skin when I'm walking or moving around.
Brangwayna Morgan
Shire of Silver Rylle, EK
Lancaster PA
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:06:22 +1300
From: tamara at suncrow.com
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Documenting oilskin, was Re: experimental
archeology
To: lochac at lochac.sca.org
Quoting "Zane R. V. Bruce" <zane at paradise.gen.nz>:
<<< It seems obvious that there are plenty of other uses for waterproof cloth
based on a wax or oil method, and the Goodman of Paris mention does
underline that, but it's the only non-death associated mention that I can
find. >>>
Coming at it from the other direction -- what else did people use to
keep the rain off themselves and their stuff ? The only period
"raincoat" I can call immediately to mind are those Japanese straw
cloaks (and now your ME oiled silk).
Post-period, but for all I know might be a period recipe:
http://www.textilemuseum.org/totm/raincoatindex.htm
"This jacket is constructed from a plain weave cotton cloth, but
raincoats were also made from silk, wool and mulberry paper. ...The
paper jackets were carefully layered and treated with a mixture of
persimmon juice and natural oils. The exterior of this coat is indigo
dyed cotton treated with oil to make it water-resistant."
Pity they don't specify the "natural oils".
Kazimira
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:23:35 +1300
From: Maggie Forest <maggie at forest.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Documenting oilskin, was Re: experimental
archeology
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
<<< Coming at it from the other direction -- what else did people use to keep
the rain off themselves and their stuff ? The only period "raincoat" I can
call immediately to mind are those Japanese straw cloaks (and now your ME
oiled silk). >>>
leather. leather pants over the top of hose to work in muddy fields,
leather tunics for fishermen, leather hats and hoods for everyone.
There's a leather hat at Lodose that looks amazingly like a
sou'wester.
/maggie
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:35:53 +1100
From: Mark Calderwood <giles at sca.org.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Documenting oilskin, was Re: experimental
archeology
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 20/01/2010, at 4:18 PM, Tiffany Brown wrote:
<<< I've also seen quite a number of pictures of (12th C of course)
shepherds in shaggy cloaks with the furry bit worn on the outside. >>>
I used to think that was more stereotypical/symbolic as well (ie
these people are shepherds) but now I think medieval limners weren't
as obvious as that (plus the sheep were a bit of a giveaway), so it
might something that was actually worn.
Eastern European herdsmen wore thick felted wool cloaks with broad
square shoulders, which eventually became part of Romanian (I think?
don't quote me) national costume. These things were so thick they
would stand up on their own like a square felt tepee, with the
shepherd crouching inside it out of the rain. Turkish officers had
leather campaign coats that did much the same.
Giles
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:37:03 +1100
From: "Yseult de Lacy (Chris Robertson)"
<yseult_de_lacy at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: [Lochac] Medieval waterproofing
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>
This may have been mentioned before; if so, I apologies. Wool which
has been washed only to remove the dirt -- ie, in cold water with
minimal soap -- still retains a lot of grease. It is perfectly possible
to spin wool in the grease, and to knit or weave it (though this is less
pleasant than de-greased wool). A hooded cloak or caphuchin of greasy
wool would be surprisingly waterproof. One can even dye greasy wool, as
long as you let the wool cool in the dyebath so that the lanolin goes
back into it, rather than being poured out with the hot dye solution.
Also, being wet per se does not matter that much as long as you are not
cold at the same time, or remain wet long enough to start growing stuff
in bodily crevices :-(. Wool is an unusual fabric in that it remains
warm even when wet. As long as you had a good fire to dry your clothes
by, and were not out for too many hours at a stretch, you'd be OK if if
you did get wet.
Finally, one adapts to a cold climate amazingly. I grew up in Sydney,
but spent 12 years in Canada in my 20s and 30s. Toronto day
temperatures in mid-winter are +5 to -5; it's definitely cold. But I
got used to it. Eventually I could walk barefoot on ice for a couple of
hundred metres without freezing my feet. I used to go around in winter
in good boots, *jeans*, a t-shirt with a ski jacket over it, wool or
sheepskin mittens, and a pair of ear muffs. The first winter I spent
back in Sydney, I wore light pants and a t-shirt, and wondered why
everyone was wearing coats.
In the late 60s-early 70s when I was at Sydney Uni, the children in
Redfern (poor area) used to run around all winter with bare feet and
thin cotton dresses, perfectly happy. I'd be chilly in warm pants,
jumpers, and a coat.
So I expect medieval peasants were far better adapted to a cold, hard
life than we are. Mind you, the weaker ones had all died off before
they got to adulthood...
--Yseult
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:07:51 +0800
From: Rebecca Lucas <quokkaqueen at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Documenting oilskin, was Re: experimental
archeology
To: <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
Are you thinking of the Hungarian Sz?r? That's the first shepherd's coat that springs to my mind...
(Veronica Gervers 1973. "The Hungarian Szur: An Archaic Mantle of Eurasian Origin" (Toronto: Royal Ontario Museum, 1973))
~Asfridhr
(Who is enjoying watching this discussion very much.)
<<< Eastern European herdsmen wore thick felted wool cloaks with broad
square shoulders, which eventually became part of Romanian (I think?
don't quote me) national costume. These things were so thick they
would stand up on their own like a square felt tepee, with the
shepherd crouching inside it out of the rain. Turkish officers had
leather campaign coats that did much the same. >>>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:53:24 +1100
From: Mark Calderwood <giles at sca.org.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Documenting oilskin, was Re: experimental
archeology
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 20/01/2010, at 6:07 PM, Rebecca Lucas wrote:
<<< Are you thinking of the Hungarian Sz?r? That's the first shepherd's
coat that springs to my mind...
(Veronica Gervers 1973. "The Hungarian Szur: An Archaic Mantle of
Eurasian Origin" (Toronto: Royal Ontario Museum, 1973)) >>>
I could be thinking of an earlier version of the szur that didn't
have sleeves or a tailored collar, seems to be a later period thing, or
Hungarians/magyars did have the suba, which a 3/4 circle cut from up
to 12 sheepskins. The museum website describes as protecting against
cold, snow, rain and the heat of the sun, as a traditional piece of
dress that young men have to buy when they get married.
http://magyarmuzeum.org/uploaded/images/20040610-064934_9.jpg for the
cut
I'm thinking more like the one this bloke is wearing which looks to
be made of karakul (goat fleece)
http://www.123rf.com/photo_5217436.html
Or this Turcoman shepherd
http://7zones.com/artImages/aimg_75_2.jpg
There are similar Turkish campaign coats in leather and Caucasian
coats made from astrakhan
Giles
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:00:08 +1100
From: Mark Calderwood <giles at sca.org.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Documenting oilskin, was Re: experimental
archeology
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 20/01/2010, at 6:53 PM, Mark Calderwood wrote:
<<< I'm thinking more like the one this bloke is wearing which looks to
be made of karakul (goat fleece) >>>
Except that karakul is newborn lamb's fleece. My bad.
http://www.123rf.com/photo_5217436.html
G
<the end>
