cloved-fruit-msg - 2/23/12
Period cloved fruit. Origin of the SCA game.
NOTE: See also the files: fruit-citrus-msg, games-msg, sports-msg, spices-msg, SCA-romance-msg, romance-today-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, p-customs-msg.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: crouchet at news.eden.com (james crouchet)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
Date: 21 Nov 1994 15:56:37 -0600
Michael Josef Lindberg <lindberg at oregon.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>I was just wondering if anybody could tell me of the history and origins
>of cloven fruit. I'm doing a folklore project on it and would like to know
>if customs in other kingdoms are different than those here in An-Tir. Also
>any variations would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Cynric
I don't have my documentation handy, but I do know a bit of the history.
At least for France. Citrus fruit, which was a costly commodity in the
middle ages in Europe because it had to be imported some distance, was
decorated with cloves and other spices.
Indian (like from India) spices were, I understand, sold by placing the
spice on one side of a scale and gold on the other. When the weight
balanced you had payed for the spice -- it's weight in gold.
Anyway, other decorations included gold pins, lace, gemstones, etc.
The gentleman who created this costly, sweet smelling, useless bauble
then gave it to a lady. Why? To show he had the wealth to give away.
To demonstrate the depth of his commitment to her. To show her family
that they would not have to support him. In short, as a marriage proposal.
Like I said, I don't have documentation handy, but armed with the above
information you should be able to find mention in books that discuss
period courting and marriage customs on Europe. I would recommend a large
university library as a starting place. Or you could try Archie &
Veronica to see if you can find info on the Internet.
+--------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Savian Jerome Dore de Valence | crouchet at eden.com |
| Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra | Austin, Texas |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------+
From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
Date: 21 Nov 1994 13:57:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
The apochryphal story is that everyone had bad breath in the
Middle Ages and nobody wanted to kiss anyone else. By biting
on a clove, the breath was freshened and liplock ensued.
This is what I heard when I first joined the SCA and for some
time afterwards, from a dizzying variety of sources. It was,
of course, a FOAF sort of thing and nobody could provide any
citations. I've seen no period documentation for it and have
concluded that it is an SCA custom of unknown origin (although
the custom was well known by 1972, when I joined).
Yrs, Folo
--
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cloved Fruit
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:18:11 EST
gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
> In article <1995Dec8.144138.17446 at atlas.tntech.edu>,
> Mary Spila <mms6824 at tntech.edu> wrote:
>
> >Could/would someone PLEASE give me a brief history of how the game of passin
> >cloved fruit was introduced to the SCA. I am doing a brief class on the gam
> >(emphasizing "Don't be a jerk") and would like some more information than wh
> >I already know.
>
> I've never heard anyone claim that they knew the origin of this game,
> other than vague rumblings that it originated 15+ years ago in
> Carolingia. It does seem to have died out in Atlantia. There was one
> attempt to revive it last weekend, but I don't think it was very well
> received. And my lady threw out this lovely pomander that the queen
> herself gave me, the nerve!
>
> Gregory Blount
Respected friend:
I know the origins. It was invented out of whole cloth. I did it.*
I'm sorry.(check out the Feb. issue of Re-creating History magazine for an
article on more authentic kissing games.) }:->
By the way, it started in Canton of the Towers, which is a canton of,
but is two days older than, Carolingia.
Sigh...
*(Lisa Goldenstar helped.)
Honour, known societally as
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or
Una Wicca (That Pict)
From: svea at earth.execpc.com (Barbara Johannessen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :)
Date: 9 Feb 1996 15:40:29 GMT
Organization: Exec-PC
Carol Cannon (szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: RCMANN at delphi.com wrote:
: : Winter," and I notice that they're showing a Christmas tree (GACK!)
: : decorated with cloved lemons. Gives a whole new meaning to
: : Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com
: : SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East
: Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these
: customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this
: custom was created> -- Gra/inne
Regarding the cloved lemons--I believe that citrus fruits studded with cloves
and rolled in other (ground) spices were used as pomanders and air-fresheners
for a great deal of the SCA-apprpriate period. The reference I remember
but can't immediately find concerned their use during the Black
Plague--you carried one around held to your nose so that you didn't
breathe in the "contagion". Of course, that's *if* you could afford the
ingredients; otherwise you made do with a nosegay of flowers or aromatic
herbs. And no, I don't know if the word "nosegay" is period.
Eleanor certainly would have been able to decorate with cloved lemon
pomanders if she wished. But the *tree* is right out!
Madrugada
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :)
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 18:24:09 EST
szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu (Carol Cannon) writes:
> Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these
> customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this
> custom was created> -- Gra/inne
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon at ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA]
Respected friend:
February 1974. I'll make it up to you all yet, somehow...
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 08:58:52 MST
From: John Ruble <jruble at urocor.com>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
> Heck, I remember when Lady Rowena from Blacklake gave a cloven WATERMELON to
> one of Sir Ian's squires and told him he had two events to use it up....he
> did, too. Of course, he was cute and many of us ladies took "pity" on him!
>
> Ulrica
>
> >I will attest that in more youthful and less serious times many of us
> >participated in the curious social rituals of the "cloven fruit".
> >However, I can not recall an occasion in the past ten years when a
> >cloved lemon has appeared (it probably has, I just wasn't there). In
> >its heyday, "cloven fruit" appeared at nearly every revel in the form of
> >lemons, oranges, zuccini, hats, and, at least once, a pumpkin.
> >
> >Bear
As for the scarcity of this fruit, I see one about every other event, in
the North, in the South, or anywhere in between. Some of you who have
voiced your dislike of this custom may not see cloved lemons anymore
because people know of your dislike, and are respecting it. Usually when
I see one, it's because some lady hands it to me and says "Ulf, get rid
of this. Somewhere. Anywhere. Just don't let it be found." Cloved
lemons make good eating...
As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my
knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event. Ivar walked
up to a lady with a cloved watermelon in his hands and a mischievous
grin on his face. Her initial horror at the thought of wandering around
with this huge watermelon, looking for someone to give it to next, must
have shown on her face. So Ivar looked over and saw Orm walking nearby.
"Orm, my friend," he said, "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady
while we exchange the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Ivar," replied Orm.
Now the exchange of the clove took some time, as Ivar has trouble with
these things, but kept after it until it was done satisfactorily. But
when he and the lady looked up, Orm was gone! Ivar said, "Pray, lady,
let me find where my friend Orm has wandered off with your watermelon,"
and off he went.
It was long until he was walking by just as Orm was presenting the
watermelon to another lady. He looked up at Ivar and said, "Ivar, my
friend. "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady while we exchange
the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Orm," replied Ivar...
This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and
realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two
Norsemen very nearly died that night...
Ulf Gunnarsson
Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:28:03 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
>As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my
>knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event.
...
>This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and
>realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two
>Norsemen very nearly died that night...
>
>Ulf Gunnarsson
Ivar, Orm and Freya, all crew members of the Raven, originally played
this game at a Namron event, Protectorate, I believe. The fruit in
question was a pumpkin about the size of small basketball. They were on
their third pass through the ladies when one of the subjects of their
attention caught on to the wily Norse ruse (remember, Ivar has played
the part of Loki on several occasions). She took the pumpkin and held
it between her knees while kissing Ivar (if I remember correctly) and
took off with the pumpkin.
I also vaguely remember a small, skirted war party looking for some
Norse gentlemen to "give them a present." Since we didn't find any
Ravens in the trees, I assume the ladies were unsuccessful in their
quest.
Bear
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:03:59 +1000
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know...
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 19 July 2011 13:02, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
<<< Also could be after the first time you accept a cloven lemon from
someone.... again, prone to randomness. >>>
Is the game of cloved (with cloves, not split which is "cloven") fruit
still played in Lochac? It seems to have died out through most of the rest
of the Known World, for various reasons.
-----------------------
I had a discussion going elsewhere about cloved lemons, the consensus of
which from SCAdians and non-SCAdians was that it sounded fine in theory, but
there wasn't much to stop it being sleazy and unpleasant, and possibly
chasing people away from the SCA entirely. So after thinking about it I
came up with this, which I call the Cloved Lemon Enhanced Non-Creepy
Heuristic, or CLENCH:
*All cloved lemons must be distributed in the first instance by the baron
and baroness or their equivalent in your group.* So, if you bring a lemon to
a feast yourself, you present it to the Pointy Hats and they pass it on.
That means you don't have the opportunity to take control of a lemon when
you'd never in a million years be given one yourself, as for example when
you're a hideous sleazy old slimebucket. The designated lemon-minders may,
of course, pass the lemon on to whoever they like. It's good to be the
king!
*Any lemon found lying around unclaimed must be returned to the baron and
baroness.* There was someone at a recent feast who kept coming past with
lemons, and I eventually realised it was because he was "rescuing" them when
someone discarded them, and passing them on for his own benefit. That was
borderline creepy.
*The recipient controls the kiss.* If Fred gives Betty a lemon, Betty
decides how and/or where she wants to be kissed. She can proffer her hand,
her cheek or her tonsils, as she wishes. Fred may, of course, feel
disappointed with her choice, but it would not be the done thing for him to
complain, or try to press the issue.
*Anyone may refuse a lemon, for any reason or none at all.* It's not
inappropriate to say "no thanks". It *is* inappropriate, very much so, to
push the matter after one's offer has been refused.
*Anyone may refuse on behalf of another person.* So if Fred offers the lemon
to Betty, Barney may step in and advise him that the lady is not open to
partaking of the Holy Hand Grenades at this time. Fred must retire
gracefully. Should he dare to suggest that perhaps Betty can speak for
herself in this matter, he should be considered to be committing a *faux pas* of epic proportions. The appropriate assumption is that Betty has already
spoken for herself -- to Barney, well beforehand -- which is why he's
speaking now.
And just one for hygiene: *Remove the clove with your fingers, not your
teeth.* Because ewwww.
There's one downside of cloved lemons, and that is that they don't work as
well as you'd think. Consider this workflow:
1. Betty has a lemon. She offers it to Fred.
2. Fred accepts, and they kiss, quite snoggily as it happens.
3. Betty is now hoping that, the ice being well and truly broken, she and
Fred may retire to chat.
4. But no! Fred now has a lemon, and he has to find someone else to give
it to. Unless the ice was broken in a particularly singular fashion, that's
the end of Betty and Fred's interaction until later.
How to fix that? I don't know. Perhaps, if a couple have decided they're
happy with each other's company and don't need any more ice broken for the
time being, the protocol could suggest that the lemon be returned to the
baron and baroness, or whoever the designated lemon-minders are. Not sure
about that. Certainly, hogging the lemon is not on!
: Bat :
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:11:22 +1000
From: Marie Alessi <madmender at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know...
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
I was handed a cloved lemon at my first event- Spring War (2008?) and the
kind gentle who offered it to me explained the idea to me, and he said that
it was my choice as to where to be kissed etc. I chose my hand, because as
lovely as the gentle looked- he was of course a complete stranger, and I'm
not in the habit of smooching random strangers!
He was very respectful, and it was overall a pleasant experience- I met some
great people when I handed the lemon on- and spent part of the night
drinking in the tavern with them!
I didn't find it creepy at all- it was reasonably late at night in the
tavern when it was bought out, so most people who would be bothered by such
things were tucked away in their tents for the night. As a first event- that
Spring War sealed my fate as a SCAdian- I was hooked!
Thyri
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:56:43 +1000
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know...
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 19 July 2011 17:11, Marie Alessi <madmender at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< I didn't find it creepy at all- it was reasonably late at night in the
tavern when it was bought out, so most people who would be bothered by such
things were tucked away in their tents for the night. As a first event-
that Spring War sealed my fate as a SCAdian- I was hooked! >>>
That's what makes cloved lemons problematical. If it were all sleazy old
farts sticking their tongues down innocent collegians' throats and newcomers
running scared of being sexual assaulted on the dance floor, we could just
declare that people suck and lemons are verboten. But for every story of a
leering greybeard with one eye on a pert cleavage, there are two or more of
people saying the cloved lemons were a major part of what broke the ice for
them in the SCA. They're not all bad, and in some cases they're very good
indeed!
In some baronies, I hear, the Holy Hand Grenade is treated not unlike a
manual entitled "How To Rape, Loot And Pillage Without So Much Of The Loot
And Pillage", and even mentioning them in polite company can get you
shunned. In other baronies (and colleges, I expect) they don't excite much
comment at all, and for all I know they might still be standard issue at
feasts and revels. I know they're rare but largely unremarkable in
Politarchopolis, largely absent in Rowany and apparently completely avoided
in Ynys Fawr, according to what I've heard.
At any rate, it would be amusing to see how they went down with a suitable
protocol attached, but would anyone take the risk?
: Bat :
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:20:58 +1000
From: Somhairle Mac Nicail <sorle.sca at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know...
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
I confess that when I came into the SCA it was a while before I was
introduced to the cloved lemon. It was College War 14.5, run by St
Aldhelm, I believe. It was explained to me that IF someone accepted the
lemon (and it wasn't a guarantee they would), then it indicated the
acceptance of a kiss. The location of this kiss was at the discretion of
(a) the recipient or (b) the female (in the event the recipient was male
and the giver was not). These seemed perfectly reasonable operating
parameters to me, and I have used them ever since - and told other
people this was the procedure.
I am shocked, shocked I say!, to find it was not ever thus.
Sorle, the ethically unchallenged.
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:56:14 +1000
From: "Jo-Anna Apelt" <thistle_f_down at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know...
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
My husband and I shared our first kiss over a cloved orange. We had met
briefly, earlier that day and were both impressed with the other. The
cloved orange gave the perfect opportunity to re-introduce ourselves over
the feast.....and 12 years later (in September) we are still happily
together.
for the Dream.
Johanna of Yorkshire
(Jo-Anna Apelt)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 03:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yehuda Howard <yehudahoward at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] you know...
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
When I first read about what the cloved fruit meant in SCA tradition I must have resembled a red glow lamp. I have seen them all my life handed around on Rosh HaShana (jewish new year) and Yom Kippur (ten days later) and sometimes other festivals in the synagogue to have a blessing made over them, and after reading it was at first quite a shock, followed by a great amount of laughter.
Yehuda ibn Yishai
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:37:41 +1000
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
On 20 July 2011 07:24, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
<<< It was explained to me that IF someone accepted the lemon...The location of
this kiss was at the discretion of
(a) the recipient or (b) the female... I am shocked, shocked I say!, to
find it was not ever thus. >>>
This is actually the first time I've seen the "or the female" addition. But
it makes sense. And upon thinking about the various combinations, if the (a)
condition is given priority when both conditions are met, I think this would
work.
Stefan
===================
At least one correspondent in the discussion I had elsewhere would
disagree. While the sleazy greybeard and the buxom collegian are the usual
image that springs to mind when considering the downside of lemons, I'm told
that at least one young lad felt just as uncomfortable when a dreadfully
*old* woman (like, thirty something! ewwww!) propositioned him with a
lemon. The "recipient chooses" rule is fairer in practice: if you don't
think you'll like the outcome, don't present the lemon.
: Bat :
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:15:51 +1000
From: Alonya Mazoyer <submarinechick at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] you know...
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
One of the more original cloves fruits I have come across is the finger lime. My first thought was "a cloved Cthulu". It was a truly awesome thing.
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:51:40 +1000
From: Shayne Lynch <maindroit at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved Fruit
To: lochac at lochac.sca.org
I think Stefan said...
<<< What's a "finger lime"? >>>
It is like one tentacle of a budda's Hand <
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha%27s_hand>, based on examples that I have
been given. Thin Skinned and strangely granulated on the inside (IIRC).
I have volunteered a Budda's Hand for two feasts that Aelfthrythe cooked for
(Valentines from memory).
I didn't clove them (that was Crispin's job) and didn't see what happened to
them until the end of the feast, at which time they were looking a bit
mangled.
Francois Guyon.
<the end>