rosaries-msg - 1/26/03
Period rosaries and their use. Making rose beads.
NOTE: See also the files: beads-msg, jewelry-msg, beadwork-msg, relics-msg, icons-msg, Icons-art, Relics-fr-all-art, saints-msg.
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From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary/Paternoster
Date: 1 Jul 1994 19:49:15 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS
Greetings...
Uh oh. There's a problem here. Most sources I have seen
date the invention of the rosary (the thing, particularly, but
perhaps also the prayer) to the 13th century, possibly by St.
Dominic. It doesn't really take off in poplarity until the 14th
century. (This is what I remember from Joe Goering's Popular
Religion course at U of T. He generally knows what he's talking about.)
You might be in better shape with paternoster beads, though
I know very little about these at all.
Cheers--
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
From: shepherdss at aol.com (Shepherdss)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary/Paternoster
Date: 8 Jul 1994 18:38:06 -0400
lmbabik at rocdec.roc.wayne.edu (Lisamarie Gemma Babik) writes:
>However, given that rosaries were initially just beads upon which to
>count prayers, why not make your own?
>Or, if glass beads are out of the question (period), knotted string,
>pebbles, wood beads, wound bits of cloth, etc. might do the trick...
One of the nicest rosaries I've ever seen was worn by John the Heretic.
The cross was two rough stick tied together with a leather thong which was
knoted at the appropriate intervals
Anne Elizabeth
From: CATHERINE_CHILTON at sagepub.COM (CATHERINE_CHILTON)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosary
Date: 7 Jul 1994 18:23:36 -0400
I haven't had time to read a lot of digests lately, so
forgive me if I repeat previously given info. Rosaries
weren't standardized until quite late, possibly OOP (I need
to do more checking to make sure). My Webster's 10th dates
the _word_ rosary at 1547, but of course you can read of
"bedesmen" much earlier. In early paintings you'll note that
the beads on the girdles of women and religious are not
divided in any way, they're just strings of beads, possibly
with the addition of a cross. The fact is that there was
no standardization of kind of prayers, number of prayers,
whether more than one kind of prayer was used and, if so,
when, or what to think about when praying (if anything)
until very late (once again, I have no date yet).
Some saints' stories mention the rosary, but none I've seen
give any indication of what interests us here. One period
tale has a nun boasting of doing 50 rosaries every day until
Our Lady appeared to her and told her very kindly to please
cut it down to 5 and _think_ about it.
Sor Maria Catalina de la Encarnacion
From: CATHERINE_CHILTON at sagepub.COM (CATHERINE_CHILTON)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosary/Paternoster
Date: 9 Jul 1994 22:47:00 -0400
Knotted string or leather is very period indeed -- I think
it's still being used as a counting device in some Third
World countries! Wood beads were predominant. There's always
pottery. If you want to show off a little wealth, a gemstone
rosary is nice, or solid gold or silver (pray as you
polish!). I like rose beads the best, though: beads actually
made from rose petals. The ones I made lost their scent in a
few months, but this just encourages me to make more (I
understand you can refresh the scent by adding a little rose
oil, but this seems like cheating to me).
Incidentally -- has anyone ever actually timed a Latin Ave
or Pater to see how long it takes to say them? I'd know a
lot better how long to stir things in medieval recipes.
Sor Maria Catalina de la Encarnacion
From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Philippa is not a brat
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 94 12:15:55 GMT
Organization: RAND
CATHERINE_CHILTON at sagepub.COM (CATHERINE_CHILTON) wrote:
>I thank you, Sor Maria Catalina, for your kind words!
I actually own several rosaries. The one I was referring to is
sterling silver and crystal. What's different is that a portrait
of Our Lady appears on the crucifix, at the crossing, behind
Our Lord. The "medal" at the point where the circle part joins the
pendant part depicts Veronica's Veil.
The Franciscan Crown is a seven-decade rosary. My brain is dead on
exactly what they specific Mysteries are, but I think they're the
Joyful mysteries plus two. Mine is cheap plastic, with a wooden
cross, which I keep in the car (no, NOT hanging from the rear-view
mirror!!!). I'm told that this particular version of the rosary is
extremely old (someone said, but this could be legend or wishful
thinking, that St. Francis created this version--but I can't find
anything in print).
I've also seen a 15-decade rosary, for the truely dedicated who say
the whole thing all at once. Most of the shorter bead strings are
called chaplets (although the rosary is itself a chaplet) and are
usually invented by some pious association or another.
The book with insufficient references is: M. Basil Penningtion,
Praying by Hand: Rediscovering the Rosary as a Way of Prayer, Harper San
Francisco, 1991. And I quote:
"Legend tells us that it was the Blessed Virgin Mary herself
who gave Saint Dominic the rosary as we know it in the West,
when she appeared tohim during his labors to convert the
Albigensian heretics. Although this legend was introduced
into the life of Dominic some two centuries after his death
(in a late-fifteenth-century life of Saint Dominic by Alan de
la Roche, . . . It also attests to the fact that the rosary as
we know it is the product of a gradual evolution.
It began as the layperson's psalter. . . . The psalms were
too complicated for many of the more simple, so a "psalter" of
150 Paters ("Our Fathers") was conceived, along with a string of
beads to count them.
Besides the canonical office prescribed by the rule, most
monasteries also celebrated a "little office" of the Blessed
Virgin Mary each day. So it is not surprising that a "psalter
of Mary" quickly found its place alongside that of the Paters.
The Paters were replaced by the angelic salutation taken from
the Gospel of St. Luke: Ave, Maria, gratia plena. Dominus tecum
. . . . In the twelfth century "Blessed are you among women, and
blessed is the fruit of your womb" . . . began to be added. . . .
The second part of the Hail Mary . . . came into common usage only
in the sixteenth century."
Taken from pages 8 and 9--and there's more both before and after
this bit. Typos are mine.
Philippa
******************************************
SCA: Philippa de Ecosse, Lyondemere, Caid
mka: Phyllis Gilmore, Santa Monica and Torrance, CA
From: david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Rosaries
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 01:28:00 -0400
Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245
M >? at FROM :margritt at mindspring.com N
M >Good Gentles:
M >I'm looking for more information on period rosaries/pater nosters/prayer
M >beads. I've read some very general information on the subject, but I
M >would particularly like info on specific examples you have seen or read
M >about- on the number and order of beads, the materials used to make
M >beads,
M >how they were strung together (using wire/string/leather/or what?), what
M >prayers were said with them, and anything else that seems pertinent.
M >Thanks for your help.
M >-Margritte (margritt at mindspring.com)
M'lady:
Try contacting the Met. Museum of Art, NYC - it has a collection of
central Rosary beads that'll leave you standing in front of them and staring
for an hour or more in awe over their construction - the entire Crucifixion
in a hinged, little (4"diam.) sphere, 30 or 40 separate layers of
micro-sculpture.
Don't matter what your personal religion, one cannot help but be knocked
over by these works of art. The best is in the Cloisters newly-renovated
Treasury, but I believe there are more, and a call may gain you access to
the research collection and experts.
Aleksandr the Traveller
[david.razler at compudata.com]
From: sniderm at mcmail2.cis.McMaster.CA (Mike Snider)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosaries
Date: 18 Apr 1995 23:16:59 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Greetings Cousin,
I have a photo I took of an English effigy (late 1300s) which depicts a
rosary terminating in a tassel, worn from the lady's belt. Only a portion
of it shows from beneath her sideless surcoat, so I believe this to be a
practice, rather than a show of loyalties. The date of the carving also
predated the dissolution of the Catholic Church in England.
Elizabeth Cadfan
From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Rosaries
Date: 20 Apr 1995 22:57:56 GMT
Quoting teachmrt from a message in rec.org.sca
> >>>In later portraits of the late 1500's we see ladies wearing their
> >>>rosary beads attached to their belts.
> If those ladies are nuns, then it is a sign of their order.
It was not customary for nuns to have their portraits painted. The lady is
referring to secular costume, and in that period, it was common to wear
rosaries that way.
> I believe it is the Baltic nuns who wear their roasaries in this way,
>but I am not sure.
The custom of nuns (What are Baltic nuns?) wearing their rosaries this way
is a survival from the period when all women did, as the nuns' habits, until
recent years, were survivals of 13th-15th century costume (depending on when
the order was founded).
Carolyn Boselli Host of Custom Forum 35 SCAdians on Delphi
Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, AoA, Yale, Seneschale/Dragon Forge
From: nzsm at spis.co.nz (SPIS & NZ Science Monthly)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary Beads from roses
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 04:17:05 GMT
Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd
nzsm at spis.co.nz writes:
>sneezy at darkwing.uoregon.edu writes:
>>
>>1. Is there anyone out there who actually utilized this article and tried
>>to make said beads? If so, would you please let me know your experience?
I don't know about the article (being scum and not seeing TI :-) but I have
made rosary beads from both dried and fresh petals, minimal amounts of
rosewater and oil. (Very low simmer for a number of hours with a bolt in the
pot to make it black -- they look better that way IMO). Very easy to do and
a good way of using up the rose petals that collect everywhere. Rolling them
afterwards is the messy part -- that's where the oil comes in. I've never
bothered sanding them to shine, but you can do a goodly range of sizes.
They're lovely (just don't store them with anything with too strong a scent
-- the odour of some neighbouring rubber leeches did nothing for one set...).
>>2. What, exactly, were rosary beads used for?
I've used them as decorations, for necklaces and to scent my drawers (the
wooden variety). I did make a fake rosary, but opted to put 9 beads in each
"decat" so that it differed from a real one (I may be a skeptic but I like
to hedge my bets :-).
It's a pleasant way to spend a summer afternoon, so go ahead and do it even
if you don't have the references to hand.
Salute
katherine kerr (who should really be using only white roses, but then
there's something poetic about turning red roses black, hah!)
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From: sneezy at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Clare ni Mhaille)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosary beads from Roses: Update
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:32:58 -0800
Organization: Institute of Cognitive and Decision Sciences
Greetings to all!
I am the person who started this thread...oh, way back about a month
ago...and I have very much enjoyed and appreciated the feedback and
responses.
My experiment was entirely successful, I am happy to note. I believe I
have found a nice niche for my merchant persona. What could be lovelier
than living full time among the scent and sight of roses.
I would just like to give a little bit of feedback to the group. I ended
up finding four (with Katherine's it makes 5) recipes for these
beads...every single one was different in some way. I would highly
suggest collecting a few different recipes then working off of the
combined ideas. (I can add mine to this collection and that now makes 6
recipes, all different.) I was more comfortable being able to choose the
parts off the recipes that made intuitive or practical sense to me. I
experimented with mash consistency, cooking vessels and times, spices in
with the cooking/spices rolled in after cooking, etc. For instance, while
Katherine's recipe (and another I have) suggest cooking down the mash
until rather dry, I found that, personally, working with a mash that was
quite wet (though not sticking to my fingers) required some patience in
the rolling, but allowed me to stick a pin into them right. I found the
drier mash to be more difficult to work with because is tended to crumble
when rolling and break when sticking a pin into it. Also, it's *just my
opinion* :) but, as a ceramics artist I was able to figure out that (like
clay) the more moisture you have in, and the finer the grind of, your
mash, the more the shrink of the bead during drying, but the tighter the
bond of the material and thus, a stronger, harder, smoother bead.
I highly recommend writing down your procedures and observations
(no...this isn't just because I am a professional research
scientist...it's because I have a lot of Virgo :P). I wrote everything
down from the start so that I could make adjustments next time around
which really helped!
In the end....it's all a matter of personal preference, eh? :) I echo
Katherine's suggestion: Just do it and enjoy!
Clare ni Mhaille (mka Lynn McDougal)
[As an aside: I did try to repeat this using lavender flowers, but it
just didn't work. The bio-mass of the lavender is simply a different kind
of composition (very woody = high cellulose content.) The beads were too
light and just never formed a hard bead. :( The scent was lovely, though,
and I might try to mix some of the lavender into the rose next time to see
what happens.)
--
WWW http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~sneezy
email: sneezy at darkwing.uoregon.edu
From: nzsm at spis.co.nz (SPIS & NZ Science Monthly)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary Beads from roses
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 02:31:51 GMT
Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd
dickeney at access1.digex.net writes:
>I would be
>mighty interested in learning more about this article that apparently
>gives instructions...
I don't know about the article, but it's really easy:
Gather rose petals (dried will do OK, fresh is fine).
Chop up very finely (a food processor helps).
Put in a pot with just enough rose water (or ordinary water) to make
slightly soggy (shouldn't be too much free liquid, just enough to stop it
catching on the bottom). The best pots are small cast iron ones as they help
the roses go nicely black (adding a spare old bolt or two helps as well).
You can also add ground spices if you want.
Put on heat that will just simmer slightly and no more. Stir occasionally.
Leave for a while (it doesn't seem to have made much difference to my
batches how long -- a hour or two is fine. So long as most of the fluid has
been reduced leaving you with a close-to-solid pulpy mass).
Test by rolling some of the pulp between your fingers. If you can squeeze
moisture out, it's still too wet so simmer some more.
Rub rose oil (plain will do, but rose oil helps the scent) on your
hands/fingers and start rolling small balls. I've varied mine from the size
of dressmakers' pin heads (the ones with plastic knobs on) up to marble
size. Much larger and they tend to split during drying.
Leave for a couple of hours to start drying (overnight can be OK) and then
run a needle through to hole them. If the holes are small, it can be really
hard to find again, so I tend to string them at this point in whatever
fashion I want.
You can sand them after they're fully dry -- some people even varnish thjem
which kinda removes the point I think (you lose the scent). I prefer the
rough finish.
I've made rosary tokens this way too, just by flattening out the pulp into
coin-sized disks.
So have fun and be sweetly scented!
katherine kerr of the far-off southern reaches of Caid where the roses are
sweeter...
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