instruments-msg – 7/24/11
Period musical instruments.
NOTE: See also the files: bagpipes-msg, drums-msg, guitar-art, harps-msg, lyres-msg, recorders-msg, trumpets-msg, trumpet-build-art, p-songs-msg, song-sources-msg.
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From: billmc at microsoft.UUCP (MCJOHN)
Date: 2 Feb 90 22:10:12 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA
Subject: Re: Spanish gypsies and Flamenco
ag1v+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Esmeralda La Sabia [Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz]) writes:
> Does anyone know when castinets were invented?
> Or when the guitar came to Spain?
Although the guitar did not attain its present form until the
seventeenth century (well into the baroque), it has antecedents
going back to the twelfth or thirteenth century (at least).
Like the lute, the guitar (or its ancestors) probably came to
Spain with the Moors. To get an idea of what a thirteenth
century guitar may have looked like, you might consult one of
the manuscripts of the _Cantigas de Santa Maria_ collected by
Alfonso X (who was, interestingly, also known as [spelling very
approximate] Alfonso el Sabia).
The Cantigas are a thirteenth century collection of 400 songs
(in Gallician-Portuguese) in praise of the Virgin Mary; before
every tenth cantiga is a picture of instrumentalists. These
illustrations provide a fascinating window on the wide variety
of instruments used in Spain at that time--including plucked
stringboard instruments with bodies of various shapes.
One of the manuscripts is available in facsimile and transcription,
prepared by Higini Angles--I can look up the bibliographical
information if you're interested.
Bill McJohn
From: pro-angmar!slarkin at alphalpha.com (Eliane Esperance)
Date: 26 Dec 90 13:47:07 GMT
Unto the gentles who were discussing portatif organs, greetings! I have
personally never considered these instruments "appropriate" for the SCA.
They are inarguable period, but unless you can find one with wooden pipes
(also period, but not as pretty) they are a) heavy b) expensive c) easily
broken. If I owned one, I would not bring it near an SCA event because I
would be afraid to move it, for fear of damaging the pipes. They are soft
lead, and dent if you *look* at them too hard. They are hard to tune, and
keep in tune for this reason. Unless you are quite rich, bringing an
instument like this to an SCA event is courting disaster.
From: trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Date: 4 Sep 91 09:46:10 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Since Mary Queen of Scots was definitely period, and since a museum has in
its collection the guitar of her lover Riccio (and it looks very much like
any guitar to me, in the photo...) it seems that the guitar must be a period
instrument.
("Mary Queen of Scots" by Antonia Fraser, pg.256, plate 18. Says it is in
the Royal College of Music, London)
Riccio died in 1566, I believe....
Now, whether the guitar was *tuned* the same as now, I don't know. A
question for our scholars of early music...
NicMaoilan
trifid at agora.rain.com
From: shick at europa.asd.contel.COM (Steve Hick)
Date: 3 Sep 91 15:45:15 GMT
Morgan Wolfsinger asks in <1F23845E47FF83E7AC at Gems.VCU.EDU> asks:
*> The Question: Is the guitar a period instrument?
*> I have found one source that says that it is (10-string Spanish and 8-string
*> Italian versions were used pre-1650). Problem: I need more sources!
*> Please, if anyone has any suggestions as to where to look for more data, I
*> would love to have them.
I am using my favorite source to look create a bibliography for her to ILL,
but I sometimes have probelms going over to bitnet, so in answer to her question,
I offer a citation I found:
33. DISSERTATION
Marcus, Robert S.
The use of the five-course guitar as a continuo instrument as described
in Spanish treatises: 1596-1764 / by Robert S. Marcus. 1978.
Seems period.
Strykar
From:Ioseph
Re: Guitar research
Date: 8 Sep 91 10:36:28
RR>From: trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
RR>
RR>Since Mary Queen of Scots was definitely period, and since a
RR>museum has in
RR>its collection the guitar of her lover Riccio (and it looks very
RR>much like
RR>any guitar to me, in the photo...) it seems that the guitar must
RR>be a period instrument.
RR>("Mary Queen of Scots" by Antonia Fraser, pg.256, plate 18. Says
RR>it is in the Royal College of Music, London)
Ah....sort of! See my upcoming article in TI....what you have there
(I have the book) is a "five-course guitar," i.e. five -pairs- of gut
strings, tuned in any number of ways.....the modern "classical" guitar, six single nylon or gut strings is WAY out of period, being developed by Torres in about 1844 CE, while the American "steel-string" is later yet. This is a -very- complex question, but, like I said, see the upcoming TI article.
-Ioseph of Locksley
still grumpy
From: DAVID at bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca
Date: 6 Sep 91 19:17:00 GMT
Unto the gentles gathering at the railto does Dafydd y Peireannydd send his
greetings.
The question of Guitar and Lute tunings surfaced a few digests ago. The lute
tuning description
"tune the highest string until it almost breaks"
comes from Thomas Robinson's "A Schoole of Musicke", 1603, which was the first
published lute tutor. My experience with gut strings, leads me to believe
that this is in fact very close to what we now call the "Renaissance G" tuning.
(GCFADG) for the six highest pitched courses, lowest to highest.
(My experience has been that a gut top course will sometimes break when
tuned up to a G, -- sometimes before). This tuning is 3 frets higher than
the modern 6-string Guitar (EADGBE), except that the 3rd string is
a semitone flater on the lute than on the Guitar.
The Spanish Vilhuella, which seems to be an ancestor to the Guitar, was tuned in
Lute tuning, so some close variant on modern Guitar tuning should be okay.
What nobody has mentioned thus far, is technique. While the Guitar is, it seems
documentable back to at least the end of the 16'th century, how was it played?
I have seen Baroque Guitarists play, and they use a right hand technique much
like your average lutenist. The strings are plucked with the pads of the
fingers. The fingers stay almost parallel to the strings, which forces the
thumb in behind the rest of the fingers. This is quite a bit different from
the modern classical Guitar "thumb over" posture.
While the Guitar is period, bashing out chords with a flat pick is almost
certainly not. Granted, very early lutenists used a quill, or pick, but
only to pluck single melody lines. When lute parts started including multiple
lines -- effectively chords -- the technique switched to using the fingers.
I've rambled on long enough
Lord Dafydd y Peireannydd
Shire l'Isle du Dragon Dormant
Kingdom of the East
From: Ioseph
Re: Guitar Research
Date: 10 Sep 91 13:16:08
D>From: DAVID at bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca
D>tuned up to a G, -- sometimes before). This tuning is 3 frets higher than
D>the modern 6-string Guitar (EADGBE), except that the 3rd string
D>is a semitone flater on the lute than on the Guitar.
There is also evidence that the Lute was tuned to a similar pattern as the guitar (but 3 frets higher, or so, of course) and this was called "new" tuning. I have -several- lute tunings.....once again, see the upcoming article in TI, which will list -all- tunings for all the guitar/mandolin/lute type insttruments (that I found, at least...)
D>What nobody has mentioned thus far, is technique. While the
D>Guitar is, it seems
D>documentable back to at least the end of the 16'th century, how
D>was it played?
D>I have seen Baroque Guitarists play, and they use a right hand
D>technique much
D>like your average lutenist. The strings are plucked with the
D>pads of the
D>fingers. The fingers stay almost parallel to the strings, which
D>forces the
D>thumb in behind the rest of the fingers. This is quite a bit
D>different from
D>the modern classical Guitar "thumb over" posture.
D>
D>While the Guitar is period, bashing out chords with a flat pick
D>is almost
D>certainly not. Granted, very early lutenists used a quill, or
D>pick, but
D>only to pluck single melody lines. When lute parts started including
D>multiple
D>lines -- effectively chords -- the technique switched to using
D>the fingers.
Once again....what -we- call a guitar is -not- period....technique seems to have been either lute-style thumb-under, or plectral monody, OR a combination of plectral monody and arpeggio (a stroke down across the strings with the flatpick.) Note that this was NOT a syncopated strum as is heard in modern "folk" styles, but a straight downwards move with the pick.
-Ioseph of Locksley
Who (grumpily) plays these damn things
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago
Everyone knows that the violin is an out of period instrument (this
one was contributed by Elizabeth). In fact it is late period; the
period violins differ in detail from modern ones, but are essentially
the same instrument with the same tuning.
Cariadoc
From: zbang at access.digex.com (Carl P. Zwanzig)
Date: 26 Nov 91 03:34:57 GMT
Organization: No, just look at the garage.
In article <91Nov10.114916ast.9794 at cs.dal.ca> thompson at cs.dal.ca writes:
> Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Deormod send
> greetings, I have a request for information from a friend who is
> interested in building a Portative Organ, if you have any
> information for me to pass on to my friend please mail it to me as
> I donot get much of a chance to read the Rialto as of late.
>
>=============================================================================
>
> I am looking for information on Portative Organs. I wish to
> build one and am having problems finding primary documentation. I
> have already consulted Theopholous (sp?) and Anon. of Berne as
> well as several texts on the construction of church organs of the
> period, but I have found no references to actual surviving
> specimens of Portatives.
>
THE books to have for organ building are the two volume set _The_Art_of_
Organ_Building_ by George Ashdown Audsley (Dover, of course,
ISBN 0-486-21314-5). Volume I is tonal information and design, volume
II is about the actual construction, including 8 pages just about types
of wood. Volume I is 600 pages, Volume II is over 700. The books were
originaly published in 1905, and have some of the best technical drawings
that I've ever seen. When I purchased them the cover price was US$25 for
the set.
Corwyn O'Domhnaill - Somewhere in Atlantia
Carl Zwanzig - Bowie, Maryland, USA
zbang at digex.com - the end of a wire
Early Guitars
Date: 26 May 92
From: DAVID at bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Unto those that pause to exchange greetings beneath this bridge, greetings.
A few days ago, a gentle mused about the possible common ancestry of viols
and guitars. _Instruments of the Middle Ages and Renaissance_, David
Monrow writes "The Spanish word *vihuela*, like the Italian *viola*, was a
generic term for all stringed instruments, whether plucked or bowed, and the
different types were distinguished by various qualifications, thus:
*vihuela de arco* for the bowed types
*viheula de pen~ola* (or *de pendola) for the plectrum plucked types
*vihuela de mano* for the finger plucked types"
(*emphasis* == italics) This certainly suggests that there may have been a
common ancestor for the bowed and plucked strings. David Munrow goes on to
say that Spanish called the Lute "vihuela de Flandes". (is that like French
leave?).
As for the use of guitars in period, well, that all depends on how you look at
things. The renaissance guitar was a much smaller, lighter instrument than
either the modern classical or folk guitar. It was strung with either 4 or 5
courses of double strings made of lambs gut. The bass course was usually an
octave pair, unless the bass note was dropped altogether, creating a re-entrant
tuning -- like a modern ukelele (my dog has fleas). (All of this from David
Munrow, as well as a little personal experience playing one once many moons
ago).
Timothy McGee in _Medieval and Renaissance Music; a performers guide_ suggests
two modern alternates to the renaissance guitar/vihuela: a classical guitar
with gut strings and a fairly dry tone, or a baritone ukelele with gut strings.
In terms of typically applied SCA standards for documentation, this is ample
documentation for the use of modern guitars (even Fender Stratocasters for
that matter) at events. On the other hand, if we want to try doing a little
better, perhaps we should at least try to restring our guitars with gut strings,
and play period (or period inspired) music using period techniques.
Dafydd y Peireannydd
who enjoys tuning his lute, and sometimes playing it,
even though it is out of tune.
Subject: Period instruments....
Date: 16 Jun 92
From: fiddler at concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
Beth.Appleton at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
> (this looked like a convenient place to insert this comment...)
>If you're willing to spend non-trivial quantities of money, there is
> (was?) a company called "Lark in the Morning" who sell period
> instruments. I'll go check and see if I still have my old catalog.
> (They don't keep sending them out if you don't order...) I don't
> remember much about prices in general -- they also have "compromise"
> instruments.
> For instance, I was considering buying a cornetto. I was going to
> get the plastic version, rather than the accurate one, because it was
> only (!) $70-80 -- which is fairly cheap for a musical instrument, just
> not for my then pocket-book (and forget the whole subject now!)
> As I remember, they were based somewhere in California, and they
> had a whole 50-some page catalog with lots and lots of unusual
> instruments......
Lark in the Morning
P.O. Box 1176
Mendocino, CA 95460
(707) 964-5569
I get into more trouble every time I see another flyer or new catalog...
From: Syr Jonathon Macnaughton
To: Dana S Emery
Re: Lute/ Cittern kits
Date: 10 Jun 92
DS> The Early Music shop of England markets kits for building various
DS> period instruments: SATB Crumhorns, Hurgy gurdy, 6c Lute, Bowed
DS> Psaltery, 2 rank positve organ, and others. They also have a
DS> subsidiary shop which stocks properly seasoned rough carved necks,
DS> sides, tops, and pegs for those brave enough to essay the
DS> construction of Violas da Gamba, Violins, and Lutes. They also stock
DS> specialty tools for luthiers (lute peg reamers, viola da gamba side
DS> clamps, soundboard thickness calipers...).
DS> The EMS Crumhorn kits are commonly stocked over here, the Early
DS> Music shop of New England (Brookline MA) stocks them, as does Lark
DS> In the morning.
Good gentle, would you be so kind as to post mailing addresses (and
phone numbers if available)? I am interested in constructing several
period stringed instruments, but have an unfortunate shortage of sources
for plans and supplies.
Many thanks in advance.
Syr Jon
From: Joe Bethancourt
To: Sharon Stanfill
Re: lute vs guitar
Date: 12 Jun 92
-=> Sharon Stanfill said to All on 06-08-92 18:17 <=-
SS> From: sharons at juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill)
SS> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
SS> Organization: The Internet
SS> Moreach suggests restringing guitars with gut strings. I would not
SS> advise doing this without doing a bit of research first. I don't know
SS> about lutes/guitars, but there are sigificant differences between
SS> nylon/metal/gut strung harps in terms of design - the different
SS> types of strings produce different stresses and require different
SS> levels of tension which strongly affects the construction of the harp.
SS> I suspect the same will be true of guitars.
Quite true, but not as essential here, unless you are putting gut on an
X-braced (steel string) guitar. Then the tension (light) of the gut will not
be enough to adequately stress the soundboard, and you will get a "dead"
sounding instrument.
Of course, putting gut on a fan-braced ("classical") guitar will not alter
the sound at all, but you will be sorry next humid weather, when the strings
fray and break....and gut guitar strings are costly indeed. I use gut on
my arch-lute, but -that one- is in a climate-controlled case and -never- goes
out on rainy days. Stick to nylon. It's the same sound, less expensive, and
lasts longer.
And putting steel strings on a "classical" will get you kindling in short
order.
The same would apply to harps. My Witchers use brass strings, and have VERY
heavy soundboards (typical of Celtic harps) while my Lyon & Healy uses nylon
and has a thin soundboard....to exchange strings on them would give a dead
sound on the Witchers, and kindling on the Lyon & Healy.
Period & Unusual Instraments
Date: 16 Jun 92
From: chowland at apple.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
[SOQ]
fiddler at concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Lark in the Morning
P.O. Box 1176
Mendocino, CA 95460
(707) 964-5569
I get into more trouble every time I see another flyer or new catalog...
[EOQ]
To anyone wanting a catalog, mail them a check for $3 first,
save your self some time. They're not mailing them for free
any more, just got off the phone with 'um.
Christofer de Hoyland
--
chowland at apple.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)
Subject: Re: making musical instruments
Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 06:09:24 GMT
winifred at trillium.soe.umich.EDU (Lee Katman) writes:
>I have heard of the fabled "Einar Lutemaker" but no one who has
>actually met him or knows how to contact him.
Master Einar Lutemaker is known mundanely as Al Kuhfeld (sp?), and
lives in the Nordskogen/Twin Cities, MN area. He is a sweet gentleman
with a wealth of knowledge about medieval science and technology (a
museum curator, I believe, mundanely). A lutenist friend of mine did
ask him, however, if he truly made lutes, and his answer was something
to the effect of "No, but I thought it sounded better than Einar
Dulcimermaker." He has made dulcimers and scheitholts, and
experimented with period brass instruments, but not, to the best of my
knowledge, lutes. Still, you might want to look up Einar in the
Twin Cities phone book and see what advice he can offer.
There is a harpmaker (SCA name Rathwin) in Mynydd Seren (Bloomington,
IN) who is making forays into rebec-making, but doesn't do lutes.
Master Reginald in Grey Gargoyles has had experience making instruments,
carving instrument rosettes, and the like, but does not build lutes.
But if you're moving to the Chicago area, Reginald (or his wife, Johanna, the
aforementioned lutenist) can almost certainly put you in touch with
mundane luthiers. Of course, there's always the London Early Music
Shop lute kit, but by all reports it's horrendously difficult....
Good luck, and hope to see you in Known World Choir this year.
Rufina Cambrensis/D.Peters, c/o sbloch
--
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)
Subject: Re: The Lute ?
Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1993 22:28:28 GMT
In article <1993Mar10.153106.19457 at sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> david at bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca () writes:
>|> Is any "Period" music/songs available for such string instruments?
>
>Between 1550 and 1650 in England, more lute music was written than madrigals and
>virginal music combined! Much of this 'late period' music has survived. BTW,
>the first music ever published (Petruci, 1509) was lute tablature.
N.B.: Pre-sixteenth century, the lute was used to play melodic lines
rather than chordal accompaniments or fantasias. So, if you have an
earlier persona and want to explore appropriate music, or just want to
see what lute players did before Dowland or Campion, have at.
Plausible areas for medieval lutes: playing a line in a polyphonic piece
from the fourteenth or fifteenth century (Machaut, Landini, Dufay,
etc.); playing basse danse tenors, or improvising a
discantus over the tenor; playing fourteenth or fifteenth century
instrumental music (mostly keyboard arrangements of vocal pieces).
FYI: a line is suitable for lute if it has a lot of movement; lines
with a lot of sustained notes (breves, whole notes) work better on
bowed strings.
As far as earlier centuries are concerned, things get a bit sticky. The
lute was yet another innovation nicked from the Saracens by the Crusaders,
so one could argue in favor of its use in music from the twelfth and
thirteenth centuries. There is, however, little proof for this (but
no need to open yet another paleomusicological Can O' Worms). The
troubadours, trouveres, and minnesanger repertoires, as well as the
Carmina Burana and Cantigas de Santa Maria, provide hundreds of
appealing melodies that sound lovely on a plectrum lute, never mind
what the musicologists might think....
This is probably more than you ever wanted to know about the Role of
the Lute in the Medieval Period, and it's likely that much could be
lost in transmission (blame my discursive style for that), but if
you're interested in medieval lute music, the music librarian at your
local college or university, or the New Grove Encyclopedia of Music
and Musicians at your local public library, can give you more
answers.
Rufina Cambrensis/D.Peters, c/o sbloch, who adds:
BTW, if you're curious about this stuff and want an online source of
information, check out the newsgroup "rec.music.early", which I think
is the same thing as the mailing list "EARLYM-LIST" for people without
Un*x access.
--
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mongoose at yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston)
Subject: Re: The Lute ?
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 06:58:54 GMT
Stephen Bloch (sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca) wrote:
: <a whole lot of interesting (and accurate) stuff about the lute>
One thing that he neglected to mention though was that the actual
lute itself in early period was unlike the late sixteenth century lute
that we tend to think of now. Apparently early on (after it was imported
to Europe) it closely resembled a Turkish ud {no, that wasn't a typo}. If
anyone is thinking of purchasing a lute they will find that an ud is far
cheaper (if they can find one) and more accurate for early period music.
I am sorry I can't be more accurate on this subject, but if anyone
has any questions, they can take their chances and mail me (I won't mind,
it's just that I may not be very helpful).
Also, is there any sort of lute music floating around on ftp
sites. Any period music for a recorder consort would also be gratefully
received.
Cormac Lenihan.
--
Conrad Leviston | Got to find a brightness in the soul,
mongoose at yoyo. | Not look outside to find out where we are,
cc.monash.edu.au | Otherwise you won't be satisfied,
Save the gherkin | 'Til you've made possession of the stars. (K.Wallinger)
From: corun at access.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Irish Fiddle?
Date: 15 Aug 1993 21:29:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
MFORD at lando.hns.COM writes:
> Greetings unto those who are loitering on the bridge this fine afternoon,
>
> Are there any of you who know about the Irish Fiddle? Is it a period
> insturment? What kind of documentation or references could you suggest?
> I am posting this to a friend who is interrested in the SCA and plays.
> Many thanx my friends. I remain in service to the Society,
>
> Lord Sean Michael MacKay
> Barony of Storvik
> Kingdom of Atlantia
As an Irish musician/singer (no, not fiddle) I can say that most of the
tunes played are not period. They come from the 17th - 20th century
according to most documentation that I've seen. I don't believe the
"fiddle" per se, is traditional to Ireland much before the late 17th
century, but I'd have to check on it. Even O'Carolan (1670 to 1738) is
a Baroque period composer. I know with certainty that the Uilleann pipes
are nearly 200 years oop.
Still, there are many folks who play traditional Irish (and Scottish and
English) music that is oop for the SCA at many events, and, in my experience,
most folk don't seem to mind too much. I have yet to hear anyone with a
hammered dulcimer at an SCA event playing Middle Eastern music on it for
example.
Sorry if this sounds discouraging. I encourage your friend to perhaps
take up the viola and learn some early music style. But by all means,
tell your friend to keep playing Irish anyway.
Corun
==============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | Unlike some other Robin Hoods, I speak with an
Dark Horde by birth | English accent. -- Cary Elwes
Moritu by choice | Robin Hood: Men in Tights
From: jcaldwll at oregon.uoregon.edu (Jim Caldwell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 19 Oct 1993 22:53:49 GMT
Organization: UOregon
eric-smith at ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith) wrote:
> In the book, _A Description of Wales_, by Gerald of Wales, he mentions
> three instruments used by the Welsh. One of these instruments was the
> harp, but there was another which the footnotes described as a stringed
> instrument. I do not recall what the instrument was called, and do not
> have my reference handy. I will bring the book in tomarrow and will likely
> Diolch
> Maredudd
Perhaps the instrument you're thinking of is the *crwth* (this _is_ the
correct spelling - it's welsh after all). It looks similar to a
square-body harp with maybe six or eight strings. The drawing I have is a
line drawing, and it looks like there might be a fingerboard under the
strings, but I'm not sure that would be correct unless it was a later
addition. The article (in _The Harvard Brief Dictionary of Music_ Apel &
Daniels, 1971 printing) mentions its use as late as 1820, so maybe that's
where it is an addition. Someone with a better music dictionary might be
able to help more.
Jehan
*Jim Caldwell
*jcaldwll at oregon.uoregon.edu
From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 20 Oct 93 19:42:55 GMT
Organization: RAND
jcaldwll at oregon.uoregon.edu (Jim Caldwell) wrote:
>
> In article <eric-smith-191093151959 at 128.159.169.79>,
> eric-smith at ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith) wrote:
> > In the book, _A Description of Wales_, by Gerald of Wales, he mentions
> > three instruments used by the Welsh. One of these instruments was the
> > harp, but there was another which the footnotes described as a stringed
> > instrument. I do not recall what the instrument was called, and do not
> > have my reference handy. I will bring the book in tomarrow and will likely
>
> > Diolch
> >
> > Maredudd
and Jehan responded
> Perhaps the instrument you're thinking of is the *crwth* (this _is_ the
> correct spelling - it's welsh after all). It looks similar to a
> square-body harp with maybe six or eight strings. The drawing I have is a
> line drawing, and it looks like there might be a fingerboard under the
> strings, but I'm not sure that would be correct unless it was a later
> addition. The article (in _The Harvard Brief Dictionary of Music_ Apel &
> Daniels, 1971 printing) mentions its use as late as 1820, so maybe that's
> where it is an addition. Someone with a better music dictionary might be
> able to help more.
What an opening. As I have secretly communicated to Bertram, I ampresently making a French folk instrument called an epinette (accent aigue on that firste, mes amis). The person I'm learning this from asserts that theinstrumenthas a medieval origin at least, and variants appear all over the world. Hesays that he has seen carvings of epinettes in the hands of angels onmedievalcathedrals in France (he is French, by the by). This particular instrumentdoes have a fingerboard (it really needs one). Mine will have metal frets,but Philippe says that the earliest instruments originals used gut wound around the fingerboard to make the frets.
This instrument is related to the hurdy-gurdy (probably a predecessor). Like
the hurdy-gurdy, it has drone strings (in my case, two) and melody strings
(in my case, one). You strum or pluck all three strings while sliding
your finger along the fret board to play the tune.
Philippa d'Ecosse
(who would promise much for documentation of all this)
From: Dan Butler-Ehle <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 22 Oct 1993 19:43:10 GMT
Organization: CCLI, Michigan Tech University
In article <Phyllis_Gilmore-201093123358 at 130.154.16.99> Phyllis Gilmore,
Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org writes (about epinettes):
>This instrument is related to the hurdy-gurdy (probably a predecessor). Like
>the hurdy-gurdy, it has drone strings (in my case, two) and melody strings
>(in my case, one). You strum or pluck all three strings while sliding
>your finger along the fret board to play the tune.
I don't believe it is related to the hurdy-gurdy. Hurdy-gurdies arechorded instruments that have common ancestors with the violin (I believe). The"epinette", however, is a type of box zither, almost identical to theGerman"scheitholt", the modern Appalacian "mountain (lap) dulcimer", and acouple ofScandanavian instruments whose names I can't remember (it's "lang-" some-thing-or-other). I'm not certain that they're in period, but it's anobvious-enough instrument that it's probably very old and works well with thenearly-medieval dance music we play in the SCA. I noticed in the Elderly Instruments catalog a book of period(?) musicfor the renaissance dulcimer (not to be confused with a hammered dulcimer). Ifit's what I think it is, it would make your epinette very happy.Ulfin <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 23 Oct 93 00:31:02 GMT
Organization: RAND
dwbutler at mtu.edu (Dan Butler-Ehle) wrote:
>
> Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org writes (about epinettes):
> >This instrument is related to the hurdy-gurdy (probably a predecessor).
> >Like
> >the hurdy-gurdy, it has drone strings (in my case, two) and melody strings
> >(in my case, one). You strum or pluck all three strings while sliding
> >your finger along the fret board to play the tune.
>
> I don't believe it is related to the hurdy-gurdy. Hurdy-gurdies are chorded
> instruments that have common ancestors with the violin (I believe). The
> "epinette", however, is a type of box zither . . .
> I noticed in the Elderly Instruments catalog a book of period(?) music for the
> renaissance dulcimer (not to be confused with a hammered dulcimer). If it's
> what I think it is, it would make your epinette very happy.
>
> Ulfin <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
The epinette is related to the hurdy-gurdy in the same way the hurdy-gurdy
is related to the bagpipes: drones, but strings rather than pipes. In
this respect, it is not played the same way as a dulcimer, either
(especially not a hammered dulcimer). The epinette can look like a
dulcimer, but some of the ones I've seen make you think more of lutes.
The hurdy-gurdy doesn't precisely play chords either, not the ones I've
seen (autoharps, on the other hand, do). Its keys serve the same purpose
as your fingers on a fretboard. What gives the impression of chords is
the drones, which play constantly. The epinette is a much simpler instrument,
but has the same principle--although you can play chords if you like (MY
fingers don't want to bend that way, though).
All stinged instruments have common ancestors. The hurdy-gurdy uses a
rosined wheel to make the strings vibrate; the viol family uses bows for
the same purpose. There are any number of ways to make strings stretched
across a wooden box vibrate (bows, wheels, feathers, fingers, hammers,
even sympathetic vibrations). You can also bow an epinette, but the
bridge on the epinette has to be shaped like that of a violin.
Elderly Instruments catalog? Where? How much? Please?
Philippa
From: Dan Butler-Ehle <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 24 Oct 1993 21:00:23 GMT
Organization: CCLI, Michigan Tech University
Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org writes:
>The epinette is related to the hurdy-gurdy in the same way the
hurdy-gurdy
>is related to the bagpipes: drones, but strings rather than pipes. In
>this respect, it is not played the same way as a dulcimer, either
>(especially not a hammered dulcimer). The epinette can look like a
>dulcimer, but some of the ones I've seen make you think more of lutes.
Dulcimers generally have three (or four if the melody string is doubled)strings. There is a melody string that you stop with the left hand onthefretboard. The other two strings are drones, usually with one tuned to the same note as the melody string and the other tuned to some harmonicbelow that. The fingerboard is usually fretted diatonically (i.e. thereisnot a fret at every even half-step). Some people stop all the strings tomake chords, but this method of playing is uncommon. Some dulcimervariants have necks and are played from behind like a guitar. These ofcourse, have the order of the strings reversed so that you can reach themelody string without hitting the drones. The Turkish "baglama" is suchan instrument. It looks like a bouzouki (sp?) and has tied-on frets ofgutor wire. Although it is probably descended from the lute, it ismusically more like a dulcimer.
BTW, there is no relationship between lap dulcimers and hammered
dulcimers other than they are both boxes with strings. They have
no common ancestor that was known as a "dulcimer". The identical
names is just an unfortunate coincidence or mistake.
>There are any number of ways to make strings stretched
>across a wooden box vibrate (bows, wheels, feathers, fingers, hammers,
>even sympathetic vibrations).
And plectra, don't forget plectra.
>You can also bow an epinette, but the
>bridge on the epinette has to be shaped like that of a violin.
Not really. You want it flat because you need to bow all three strings
at the same time, otherwise it's not really the same instrument (like the
difference between bowing a bass violin and plucking the double bass--same
instrument physically, but musically they're in different classes).
Strings on a violin are arranged in an arc so that you can play them
individually.
>Elderly Instruments catalog? Where? How much? Please?
Don't have the information on hand. Can anyone help out?
Also of interest may be the catalog from Lark in the Morning.
Again, I haven't the information with me.
--Ulfin <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
From: moochie at camelot.bradley.edu (Melissa Koontz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 25 Oct 1993 08:26:26 -0500
Organization: Bradley University
In <2aeqd7$6ij at mtu.edu> Dan Butler-Ehle <dwbutler at mtu.edu> writes:
>In article <Phyllis_Gilmore-221093171904 at 130.154.16.99> Phyllis Gilmore,
>Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org writes:
>Dulcimers generally have three (or four if the melody string is doubled)
>strings. There is a melody string that you stop with the left hand on the
>fretboard. The other two strings are drones, usually with one tuned to
>the same note as the melody string and the other tuned to some harmonic
>below that. The fingerboard is usually fretted diatonically (i.e. there
>is not a fret at every even half-step). Some people stop all the strings to
>BTW, there is no relationship between lap dulcimers and hammered
>dulcimers other than they are both boxes with strings. They have
>no common ancestor that was known as a "dulcimer". The identical
>names is just an unfortunate coincidence or mistake.
Good Gentles, if I might add the sum of my paltry knowledge about
lap dulcimers. The lap dulcimer is descended from two European folk
instruments. The first and most commonly known is the Scandinavian
Hummle that can have between 4-24 strings. The other is the german
Schietholt this instrument has between 4-8 strings most commonly and
has similar shapes to the Applachian lap dulcimers that are found in
America.
I myself have a five string lap dulcimer my melody string is
doubled and I have a harmony string doubling my drone string. This
harmony string is tuned an octave higher and to the same note as my
drone string. My dulcimer is tuned and fretted modally. It however
does have a 6 1/2 fret which alows me a slightly greater range then
similar period instruments. My dulcimer is tuned in this pattern
for the mixolydian my strings are tuned as following DD A DD the
first two are melody the third is harmony, the fourth is drone, and
the last string is the octave harmony. For the Aeolian mode my
dulcimer would be tuned as follows CC A D.
Most of this information is courtesy of experience and the
teaching of the Gentles at the Mountain Music Store in Brown County
IN. The history is taken from a reference entitled The History of
Stringed instruments. This reference is an excellent resource.
I hope Good Gentles this information may be of help to you.
Adelind von Rosenberg
moochie at camelot.bradley.edu Adelind von Rosenberg
Melissa Koontz House of the Moss Rose,
Barony of Illiton, Midrealm
From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 25 Oct 93 20:09:27 GMT
Organization: RAND
In article <2aeqd7$6ij at mtu.edu>, dwbutler at mtu.edu (Dan Butler-Ehle) wrote:
>
> In article <Phyllis_Gilmore-221093171904 at 130.154.16.99> Phyllis Gilmore,
> Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org writes:
> Dulcimers generally have three (or four if the melody string is doubled)
> strings. There is a melody string that you stop with the left hand on the
> fretboard. The other two strings are drones, usually with one tuned to
> the same note as the melody string and the other tuned to some harmonic
> below that.
Sigh. I think I was mentally stuck on hammered dulcimers and psalteries.
Sorry. By the by, the alternative tunings Adeline mentions in another post
are awfully familiar. My instructor has brought in several related
instruments, one from as far away as the Philippines, that work on the same
general principle (melody plus drones), with the same system of frets. The
basic design is fairly simple, but people do put a lot of variation into
the actual instruments.
> And plectra, don't forget plectra.
Yes--and plain old guitar picks. Philippe (the teacher) uses a piece of
plastic from a food storage container, because it's flexible.
> >You can also bow an epinette, but the bridge on the epinette has to
> >be shaped like that of a violin.
>
> Not really. You want it flat because you need to bow all three strings
> at the same time, otherwise it's not really the same instrument (like the
> difference between bowing a bass violin and plucking the double bass--same
> instrument physically, but musically they're in different classes).
> Strings on a violin are arranged in an arc so that you can play them
> individually.
The key word there is "can" play strings separately. And don't confuse
"classes of instruments" with playing technique. You'll find double basses
plucked as well as bowed in a symphony orchestra. I pluck and bow my
violin, and play two or more strings at one time--sometimes even when the
music says to do so :-). It's harder to three strings at once (you
quickly get one going,
then let it ring while you play the other two), but that's a function of
the curvature of the bridge.
I call that beautiful instrument of mine a fiddle when I play
traditional Scottish music (badly), and a violin when I play Bach
(very slowly). (A rose by any other name . . . .)
The epinette has only three strings, and you might want to bow all of them
at once, but that would be dull in the long run. You can get up some pretty
exciting stuff by variation (as you would, say, plucking a guitar). You
could do that with different bowing combinations, I suspect.
Philippa d'Ecosse
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sj6070f90 at auvax1.adelphi.edu
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 05:18:04 GMT
Elderly Instruments is located in Ann Arbor, MI. If you write them they will
send you a catalogue. The request would probably get there without a street
address and they probably wouldn't charge for the cat. either. I have dealt
with them in the past and they are good people. However, I also sell musical
instruments, so maybe I could help you out. E-mail your wants and I'll see
what I can do. My address is: SJ6070F90 at auvax1.adelphi.edu.
Good luck! Stuidhart Martainn MacDhomnauill (mka Stuart Joseph)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: UCCXDEM <UCCXDEM at MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Organization: Oklahoma State University Computer Center, Stillwater OK
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 15:10:00 GMT
>Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org writes (about epinettes):
>>This instrument is related to the hurdy-gurdy (probably a predecessor).
>>Like
>>the hurdy-gurdy, it has drone strings (in my case, two) and melody
>strings
>>(in my case, one). You strum or pluck all three strings while sliding
>>your finger along the fret board to play the tune.
>
>I don't believe it is related to the hurdy-gurdy. Hurdy-gurdies are
>chorded
>instruments that have common ancestors with the violin (I believe). The
>"epinette", however, is a type of box zither, almost identical to the German
>"scheitholt", the modern Appalacian "mountain (lap) dulcimer", and a couple of
>Scandanavian instruments whose names I can't remember (it's "lang-" some-
>thing-or-other). I'm not certain that they're in period, but it's an
>obvious-enough instrument that it's probably very old and works well with the
>nearly-medieval dance music we play in the SCA.
>
>Ulfin <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
Greetings unto the Rialto and unto Ulfin from Marke.
The instruments you cited above are definitely period. The earliest
account of a dulcimer-like instrument is from Persia about 3rd century
B.C. I my search for medieval instruments, the hammered dulcimer is
a period instrument and there seem to be several types, (1) the normal
with the center and the 2 side bridges, (2) the center bridgeless, and
(3) a slavic Hammered which was commonly plucked. What is interesting is
the Slavic dulcimer developed into a type of Harpsichord with pedals
but no keys, it was still struck by hand.
Marke, Luthier
From: mmckay at epas.utoronto.ca (Michael McKay)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 26 Oct 1993 12:51:25 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
<UCCXDEM at MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU> writes:
>... I[n] my search for medieval instruments, the hammered dulcimer is
>a period instrument and there seem to be several types, (1) the normal
>with the center and the 2 side bridges, (2) the center bridgeless, and
>(3) a slavic Hammered which was commonly plucked.
And don't forget (4) the _dulce_melos_, a keyboard hammered
dulcimer described in the mid-15th century (and considered to be a
precursor of the piano!)
>... the Slavic dulcimer developed into a type of Harpsichord with pedals
>but no keys, it was still struck by hand.
Do you mean the Cimbalom (sp. ?) ? Just how is this a Harpsichord?
I'm inclined to believe that the harpsichord requires keys to be a
harpsichord (It. Clavicembalo = zither (?) with keys). How do the
pedals work?
- Michel du Flambard
From: Dan Butler-Ehle <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 27 Oct 1993 23:37:51 GMT
Organization: CCLI, Michigan Tech University
Well, for what it's worth, I have the "Lark in the Morning" catalog
with me today. For those who are interested in medieval and ethnic
instruments, this catalog is a "must have". (That is not to say that
you should necessarily order anything from them, only that you should
have the catalog.) The catalog costs three bucks.
Lark in the Morning
P.O.Box 1176
Mendocino, CA 95460
(707) 964-5569
Ulfin of Wyrmgeard <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
From: Greyhorn at f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Greyhorn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval(?) hunting
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 10:02:02 -0500
In a message dated 10-21-93 Arval d'Espas Nord wrote to All:
AN> From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Newsgroups:
AN> rec.org.sca Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
AN>
> I am trying to find a source from which I might purchase a "medieval
> hunting horn".
AN>
AN> Pier One Imports. I bought one there for Doffin-Hallr Morrisson for
AN> his Laurel last Twelfth Night.
AN>
Or any MJ Designs, Frank's Nursery and Crafts, Total Crafts, or just about any
antique shop.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: leighann at sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 00:06:33 GMT
Greetings to the Rialto from Siobhan! Maredudd wrote:
>> In the book, _A Description of Wales_, by Gerald of Wales, he mentions
>> three instruments used by the Welsh. One of these instruments was the
>> harp, but there was another which the footnotes described as a stringed
>> instrument. I do not recall what the instrument was called, and do not
>> have my reference handy. I will bring the book in tomarrow and will likely
And Jehan responded:
>Perhaps the instrument you're thinking of is the *crwth* (this _is_ the
>correct spelling - it's welsh after all). It looks similar to a
>square-body harp with maybe six or eight strings. The drawing I have is a
>line drawing, and it looks like there might be a fingerboard under the
>strings, but I'm not sure that would be correct unless it was a later
>addition....
Don't bother with a music dictionary. Instead, find an article by Mary
Remnant called "Rebec, Fiddle and Croud in England", in (I'm sorry I can't
remember specifics) a back issue of one of the early music societies'
publications. She also wrote a book, which may be easier to find, and
incorporates much of that article:
Remnant, Mary. ENGLISH BOWED INISTRUMENTS FROM ANGLO-SAXON TO TUDOR
TIMES. Oxford : Clarendon Press ; New York : Oxford University
Press, 1986.
To summarize, I'd also lay odds that Giraldus' "stringed instrument" was
the crwth, called "croud" or "crowd" in English -- it started out life as a
sort of bowed lyre -- the strings were stopped by pressing with the
fingernails. By Giraldus' time, and indeed by the time of the Laws of
Hywel Dda, the crwth had grown a fingerboard -- though it preserved the
"shoulders" of its lyre predecessor, and left one or two strings off the
edge of the fingerboard to be sounded as drones with the thumbnail of the
fingering hand (Hywel's laws specify a repayment price for the damaging of
a crwth-player's thumbnail such that he's rendered incapable of work until
the nail grows back...).
In any event, check out Remnant. She's a great resource.
Slainte!
- Siobhan
----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey Siobhan ni hEodhusa
Leigh.Ann.Hussey at sybase.com {sun,lll-tis,pyramid,pacbell}!sybase!leighann
Argent, a pale vert, surmounted in base by a lion dormant or, on a chief
wavy vert an Irish harp or. "The West is the best." -- Seamas MacMhoire
From: afk at ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM (Art Kaufmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Instruments
Date: 29 Oct 93 18:01:42 GMT
Organization: NCR/Teradata
jcaldwll at oregon.uoregon.edu (Jim Caldwell) writes:
> [much deleted in the interest of bandwidth]
>
>Speaking of my weakness, re my earlier post, has anyone out there seen in
>person or in a photo an actual crwth? A good description would be great,
>as most dictionaries scant non-orchestral instrument entries (yes, there is
>_New Groves_ et al, but I'd like to hear what a witness has seen).
>
>Jehan Bretel
>
>*Jim Caldwell
>*jcaldwll at oregon.uoregon.edu
Mark - Jehan - Jim,
I haven't seen a crwth, although I've heard a recording of one. It is on the
tape "Rambling Sailor" by Simon Spaulding (Simon the Navigator if you are into
the RenFaire scene). It's on Stella Maris, P.O. Box 7436, Berkeley, CA 94707-0436.
You might also try the "Shrine To Music Museum" in Vermillion, SD. They are
reputed to have an immense stringed instrument collection.
---
Colin Graham | Art Kaufmann
Caid | afk at ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Musical Instrument Background Check
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 23:16:15 GMT
Emrys asks about bowed psaltries. I too love the sound of a (well-played)
bowed psaltry, but I have been unable to document them before the 20th
century. Munrow makes no mention of bowing psaltries in his (quite
reputable) overview of musical instruments, and Michael Praetorius did
not mention them when he cataloged all known instruments in the 16th
century. (Well ok, he didn't say much about those "heathen" (middle
eastern) instruments, but he did try to be thorough with the European
ones.)
Plucked psaltries are solidly period; artistic evidence gets them to
at least the 14th century, and that's off the top of my head. I'm
sure they go much earlier, but it's not an instrument I've looked into
much. Psaltries can be plucked with fingers or plectra (feathers are
sometimes shown; you use the hard end, like for a quill).
Bowing cannot be easily extrapolated from the period instrument; the
design of the bowed psaltry is very different from that of the plucked
psaltry, to allow for bow access. It would be nearly impossible to bow
a psaltry designed for plucking; most of the notes would be completely
inaccessible unless you had a teeny, tiny bow (shorter than the space
between two strings). I don't think they did that, somehow.
The following two books are excellent sources of information on
medieval instruments:
Michael Praetorius, _The Syntagma Musicum, Volume Two, De Organographia,
First and Second Parts, Plus All Forty-Two Original Woodcut Illustrations
from Theatrum Instrumentorum_, tr. Harold Blumenfeld, Da Capo Press,
New York, 1980.
David Munrow, _Instruments of the Middle Ages and Renaissance_, Oxford
University Press, New York, 1976.
Ellisif Flakkari
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Musical Instrument Background Check
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 05:33:01 GMT
Philippa asks:
>This whole discussion is depressing. I, too, would so
>love the bowed psaltery to be Period. However, the
>word "psaltery" seems to be period--what instrument
>would this have referred to in period?
The plucked psaltry is certainly period. The instrument was typically
either rectangular or "boar's snout" in shape (the latter is hard to
describe; think of half an hourglass and you're in the right ballpark).
Metal strings were strung across it, with each one being tuned to a single
note in much the same way that the harp is. Tuning was typically
diatonic -- the instrument would be tuned in a particular key, and by
starting at the right string and playing 8 consecutive strings, you'd
be able to play a major scale. I don't have my books handy to verify
this, but I believe typical range was about two octaves. The strings
were plucked with the fingers, feathers, or other sorts of plectra.
You can play it either by cradling it in one arm or by laying it on your
lap.
Ellisif
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Musical Instrument Background Check
Date: 14 Dec 1993 16:29:16 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
>Greetings from Emrys ap Dafydd.
>
>At a recent craft fair, I saw a couple selling bowed psalters (psaltries??).
>Is this thing period?? I think I gotta have one.
I cannot give any citations for this information off the top of my head
(and I'm currently painting my office, so the books are ... unavailable)
but my understanding is that the bowed psaltery is a 20th century
invention. Plucked psalterys, are wonderfully medieval, but the strings
are arranged differently.
Sorry,
Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Bowed Psaltries
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 23:06:51 GMT
Bartholomew asks:
>is there any reason why one could not 'pick' or 'pluck' a bowed
>psaltry? I understand it would not make the same sound, but would
>it simulate an appropriate period instrument?
It would not be exactly like playing a (period) psaltry, but in my
opinion it would not be jarring to do so. This is in the same
category as using 16th-century embroidery on a 14th-century dress:
experts will know, but you will not disrupt the ambience of the event
and 99%+ of the attendees won't notice.
Here are some differences you will encounter:
The strings on your bowed psaltry are probably closer together than
they are on a psaltry intended to be plucked. This means that if you
wish to play in the same manner as the period instrument, plucking the
center of the string, you may find it a little tricker. You could
solve this by plucking at the end, where the bow would be placed; this
will affect the sound a little bit and will make your playing style
less period. Again, that's not something that would be so jarring
that you shouldn't do it, but you should be aware of it.
Also because of the string placement, you will probably have difficulty
plucking chords (especially if you decide to play at the ends of the
strings).
Another factor to consider is that your bowed psaltry is probably
fully cromatic over 2 octaves or so, but period ones probably weren't.
We of course don't know that no one ever tuned the instrument chromatically,
but evidence points to diatonic tunings. This also is not a big deal;
its impact on you will be that you might be able to play music on your
psaltry that you could not play on a period instrument. But if you
don't abuse that, it shouldn't be a problem.
Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: howland at noc.arc.nasa.gov (Curt Howland)
Subject: Horde Music (forward)
Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 05:37:25 GMT
Forwarded for anyone else that might be interested,
or that might have addenda (a scattering of addendums?):
From djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 4 13:57:12 1994
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 13:55:41 -0800
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Content-Length: 906
Greetings, m'lord....
You posted asking after a b-shaped musical instrument played by a
gentleman in Russian garb. This sounds to me like a bandura, a
Ukrainian folk instrument. One hand plays the long strings (which
have frets, I _think_) and the other plays the short strings, and the
result is a sort of cross-handed appearance. I don't know how old
the bandura is, but I remember a Ukrainian friend playing one and
singing a folk song which, he said, went all the way back to pagan
times. This still doesn't prove how old the bandura is, but it's
been around a while.
I would've posted this, but my connection seems to be fouled up at
the moment. It lets me read, off and on, but about thirty seconds
after I try to post, it goes "[site number] timed out...."
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hammered Dulcimer
Date: 15 Feb 1994 23:59:25 -0500
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
<macdj at delphi.com> wrote:
>Greetings! I am new to this news group so forgive me for any mistakes.
You might want to also check out the news group rec.music.early for
discussions of "pre-Classical Western music".
>I am looking for sources of medieval music written for the Hammered Dulcimer.
I'm not aware of any medieval music written specifically for the hammered
dulcimer. First, most medieval music is not marked as "for" any particular
instrument(s). Second, while instruments related to the modern hammered
dulcimer have existed from China to North Africa for many centuries, I have
seen NO reference to, or depiction of, one in medieval Europe. (Quick check
of the indexes of Hoppin's _Medieval Music_, Page's _Voices and Instruments
of the Middle Ages_, and Grout's _History of Western Music_... no, nothing.)
The closest thing I've seen that's common in medieval Europe is the plucked
psaltery, which more closely resembles a modern zither. (Among other things,
the plucked psaltery is the only common medieval instrument I know of that
typically had metal strings, rather than gut.) That said, however, I don't
want to discourage learning it.
>I would like to learn
>to play popular dance tunes plus background music for feasts and such.
I'm assuming by your choice of words that you read music. I'm also
assuming you want actual medieval and/or Renaissance music, not just
18th-20th-century folk songs.
There are several books of dance music available from SCA publishers, and
others outside the SCA. The only SCA dance book I have is the Rose and Nefr
book, which includes dance instructions and music for dozens of the dances
done most often in the SCA. The two most useful primary sources for common
SCA dances are Arbeau's _Orchesography_, available in English translation,
paperback, from Dover for $10 or so, and Playford's _English Dancing Master_,
reprinted and published in paperback by Dance Books Ltd., 9 Cecil Court,
London WC2. The latter is reprinted in modern notation; the former is in
16th-century notation, which has C clefs, inconsistent measure lines, and
slightly odd-looking note heads, but it's not bad. I don't recommend
learning dance music WITHOUT learning the associated dances: you'll be a
much better dance musician if you know how many times to repeat and what
tempo is reasonable.
For "background music for feasts and such", there are six centuries of
music you can choose from. A lot of that was originally intended to be
vocal, and some of it doesn't stand up too well instrumentally. Look for
the 16th-17th-century English keyboard stuff, such as the Fitzwilliam
Virginal Book (which should be in any University library's music section).
An advantage of this is that the timbre of a virginal isn't that different
from that of a hammered dulcimer, so you'll get a reasonable approximation
to the original effect. As much of the market for books like this
consisted of amateur musicians, there should be pieces of a wide range of
difficulty. If you want earlier stuff that's tuneful enough to stand
without lyrics, look for the Spanish Cantigas de Santa Maria, the Italian
laude, and the German minnesinger songs; much of this is collected in
"Monophonic Songs of the 12th and 13th Centuries", edited for C recorder
and published privately by Persis Ensor; Alban St. Alban's carried this
book a few years ago; you might ask whether he still does.
mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at s.ms.uky.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: davids at konig.bellcore.com (David Shallcross)
Subject: Re: Hammered Dulcimer
Summary: existed at 1511
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 17:13:09 GMT
In article <2js97d$jsd at s.ms.uky.edu> sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch)
(aka mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib) writes:
><macdj at delphi.com> wrote:
>>I am looking for sources of medieval music written for the Hammered Dulcimer.
>
>I'm not aware of any medieval music written specifically for the hammered
>dulcimer. First, most medieval music is not marked as "for" any particular
>instrument(s). Second, while instruments related to the modern hammered
>dulcimer have existed from China to North Africa for many centuries, I have
>seen NO reference to, or depiction of, one in medieval Europe. (Quick check
>of the indexes of Hoppin's _Medieval Music_, Page's _Voices and Instruments
>of the Middle Ages_, and Grout's _History of Western Music_... no, nothing.)
>The closest thing I've seen that's common in medieval Europe is the plucked
>psaltery, which more closely resembles a modern zither. (Among other things,
>the plucked psaltery is the only common medieval instrument I know of that
>typically had metal strings, rather than gut.) That said, however, I don't
>want to discourage learning it.
>
Although the hammered dulcimer may not have existed in *Medieval*
Europe, I have a copy of an English translation of Sebastian Virdung's
_Musica Getutsch_ (originally published in German in 1511) that includes
a picture of a hammered dulcimer (with beaters). I believe the German
caption calls it a "Hackbrett" (my copy is at home right now, so there
may be errors in the details). Michael Praetorius's Syntagma Musicum
(about 1614) also has a picture of one.
So hammered dulcimers did exist in Renaissance Europe, and within the
period of the Society. They are certainly contemporaneous with the
flowering of music printing and publishing of the 1500's.
But I don't know of any music written specifically for the hammered
dulcimer, either.
Godefroi du Lac davids at bellcore.com
Settmour Swamp, EK
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Hammered Dulcimer
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 22:08:14 GMT
sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch) writes:
>Second, while instruments related to the modern hammered
>dulcimer have existed from China to North Africa for many centuries, I have
>seen NO reference to, or depiction of, one in medieval Europe.
I don't have manuscript details (date, citation) to hand here at work,
but there is a 15th century illumination that clearly depicts a woman
playing dulcimer. This is reproduced (in black and white, alas) in
David Munrow's _Instruments of the Middle Ages and Renaissance_.
Praetorius describes the instrument in his catalog of about 1613,
though this is admittedly renaissance. These are just two references
off the top of my head.
Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: hammered dulcimer is definitely period
From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 94 11:25:59 EST
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op
I believe that the illumination Ellisif refers to is the one found in
Boccaccio's _Le Livres de Cleres et Nobles Femmes, which is Ms. Fr 599,
f.29. It depicts a woman holding two dulcimer hammers between her middle
and ring fingers apparently simultaneously striking and plucking the
strings of an instrument which is a horizontal box with 10 string. Now, I
have no idea how this instrument was tuned, nor how it was fretted or
bridged. The illumination does not give this information. But, in my
unlearned musical opinion, the woman appears to be playing a dulcimer
with hammers. BTW, this illumination can be found in color in The
Medieval Woman, an Illuminated Book of Days, a New York Graphic Society
Book published by Little, Brown and Company, Boston, ISBN 0-8212-1587-6.
The illustration on the facing page of this book shows an illumination of
a woman with a laurel wreath on her head playing a bowed psaltery. A
Ahhh, those music Laurels...
Any music experts have opinions about the dulcimer illumination?
Megan, the only marginally musical.
==
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644
YYY YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY |
|____n____|
From: mmckay at epas.utoronto.ca (Michael McKay)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hammered Dulcimer
Date: 21 Feb 1994 20:08:18 GMT
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
>>Second, while instruments related to the modern hammered
>>dulcimer have existed from China to North Africa for many centuries, I have
>>seen NO reference to, or depiction of, one in medieval Europe.
Dating from around the middle of the fifteenth century, there
is a manuscript by Henri Arnault de Zwolle, which in his description
of the _Dulce_melos_ (a keyboard dulcimer remarkably similar in
concept to the early german fortepiani) mentions the existence of the
hammered dulcimer.
From: jjordan at yorick.umd.edu (James L. Jordan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking instruments and such...
Date: 25 Apr 1994 16:17:52 -0400
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Hvordan har du det! Viking questions huh?
First, the vikings did have musical instruments. The three that come to
mind are wooden pan pipes, flutes made from the femur of a sheep (maybe a
cow, can't remember), and wooden, 6 string lyres (pretty neat, I made one).
The scales are based on the OLD music scale of six notes (ute re mi fa so
la). The one we're used to is much more modern. I even have a tape put
out by "Musica Archeologica" (spelling may be off), where they play
instruments the Brit. Museum built using music that dates to the period.
and the verb 'reise' is indeed 'travel' in Norwiegian (Danish may be a
little different, don't remember) Although there are rules to conjugate
verbs (if you're 18 or older), there are lots of exceptions. Is this the
only verb you are interested in or do you want a language session?
I wont fill up the ether with that, but feel free to contact me via
e-mail. jjordan at umd5.edu
Ha de bra!! Thorvald Hrafnsson, Atlantia
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking instruments and such...
Date: 27 Apr 1994 16:02:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Ralph Lindberg <dragonsl at hebron.connected.com> wrote:
>But just don't ask me what a shawn or a rebec is.
A shawm is an oboe forerunner, and comes in sizes from soprano
(maybe 2 feet long) to great bass (7 feet long, not counting the
tube that curves back down to where the musician's mouth can
reach it). A rebec is a little bowed instrument like a miniature
fiddle, in an elongated pear shape. Three strings, if my memory
serves me. And neither one is Viking.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: sharons at juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Medieval Instruments
Date: 11 Jul 1994 21:51:19 -0400
Jonathan J. Satcher (giovanni at bach.seattleu.edu) wrote:
: I am trying to find medieval instruments ( at 13th century) that would have
: been in use in the north, specifically Lombardia, more specifically
: Bergamo. Any assistance you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Try Antique Sound in Brookline, MASS. Don't have the address
handy, but the phone is 617-734-7415. The owner, David Green,
is quite knowledgeable and pleasant. I think the selection is
much better than Lark in the Morning. (Sorry, Joe Bethancourt!)
AS has, for example, true Pictish harps, medieval harps with
bray pins, several gut strung later period harps, and can
probably get double and/or triple strung. AS also carries
serpants, and other obscure things.
Nesta ferch Meriadoc Hartley
sharons at ll.mit.edu
From: gthistle at uclink.berkeley.edu (tif)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mediaeval Violins/Violinists
Date: 8 Apr 1995 05:44:36 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
In article <3m3hf1$oud$1 at sydney.dialix.oz.au>,
Susan Simon <raptor at sydney.DIALix.oz.au> wrote:
>I would really like any information or pictures (preferably in GIF
>format) regarding violins in mediaeval society
Um. I have a really great book called _The Book of the Violin_ by
Dominic Gill (editor), published by Rizzoli Books in New York, that
starts with precursors to the violin and continues (with color pictures)
through Stradivari and Amati (family) to the modern day, or at least to
Kreutzer -- it contains a couple bits of reproductions of sheet music.
This is something of a teaser, though, because I "have" this book at my
parents' house 500 miles from here, and therefore cannot supply you with
publisher's address or ISBN.
Oh. melvyl notes that the UK edition is published by Phaidon in London.
--Bronach (who feels a bit silly now)
Kates, Mists, West
From: darkstar at u.washington.edu (Alden Hackmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: It'a an accordion! RUN!!!
Date: 28 Jun 1995 22:45:36 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) writes:
>I'm ashamed to admit it, but I bought a little accordion at a swap meet
>last weekend, mostly to annoy my husband for Father's Day (I also bought
>him a Bruce Lee suit from "Game of Death" -- *snicker*). Now that I
>own it, I'm even more ashamed to admit that I actually enjoy playing the
>damned thing. So my question is this: are accordions period? Or
>perhaps the question should be: Is there a period accordion? I'm
>very keen on the idea of sharing my newfound joy with ALL my friends
>around a campfire someday...
I fear that the accordion is Not Period. Sorry to disappoint you.
(Duke Hohner and Lord Wheatstone were born several centuries too late for
you.)
Alden and Cali Hackmann
Olympic Instruments - makers of fine hurdy-gurdies
PO Box 166, Indianola WA 98342
360-297-7234 (that's right, 360)
darkstar at u.washington.edu
--
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar at u.washington.edu
Dept. of Pathology, University of Washington
From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: It'a an accordion! RUN!!!
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 12:34:44 GMT
Organization: RAND
darkstar at u.washington.edu (Alden Hackmann) wrote:
>davids at konig.bellcore.com (David F Shallcross) writes:
>
>>The closest period instrument I can think of is the regal, a small
>>portable variant of the organ with reeds like an accordion, and an
>>attached bellows, but not held in the hands as an accordion.
>>I've never seen one live, and don't know whether it requires two
>>people to play.
>
>I'm not clear on that either, but it would appear to be the case. There
>are some nice pictures and description of them in the booklet that goes
>with David Munrow's collection of Early and Renaissance Music. I'd love
>to have one: I fell in love with the sound when I heard it on a Broadside
>Band album. A Franciscan monk told me what it was later.
One of the tapestries of the Lady and the Unicorn series has what
I've been told is a "portative organ" in it. The thing sits on
a table, has a small keyboard, and requires a Handmaiden to pump
the bellows (handmaiden not included <grin>). Is this different
from what you're talking about?
(When I was 9, I said to Mama: I want to play an instrument.
Which one? she asked. I dunno, I said. So I took accordion
lessons. I should have held out for the tuba . . . .)
******************************************
SCA: Philippa de Ecosse, Lyondemere, Caid
mka: Phyllis Gilmore, Santa Monica and Torrance, CA
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: It'a an accordion! RUN!!!
Date: 30 Jun 1995 20:52:43 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
davids at konig.bellcore.com (David F Shallcross) writes:
|> liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) writes:
|> >I'm ashamed to admit it, but I bought a little accordion at a swap meet
|> >last weekend, mostly to annoy my husband for Father's Day (I also bought
|> >him a Bruce Lee suit from "Game of Death" -- *snicker*). Now that I
|> >own it, I'm even more ashamed to admit that I actually enjoy playing the
|> >damned thing. So my question is this: are accordions period? Or
|> >perhaps the question should be: Is there a period accordion? I'm
|> >very keen on the idea of sharing my newfound joy with ALL my friends
|> >around a campfire someday...
|>
|> Alas, according to the (on-line) Academic American Encyclopedia,
|> the accordion, defined as "a portable reed instrument [that] produces
|> its sound by means of a bellows suspended between headboards that have
|> studs or buttons for the selection of right-hand pitches and left-hand
|> chords." was invented in 1822 by Friedrich Buschmann (at least,
|> according to that same Encylcopedia). And Praetorius' early 17th
|> century book on instruments doesn't mention such a thing.
|>
|> The closest period instrument I can think of is the regal, a small
|> portable variant of the organ with reeds like an accordion, and an
|> attached bellows, but not held in the hands as an accordion.
|> I've never seen one live, and don't know whether it requires two
|> people to play.
|>
|> -- Godeveert van der Meere David Shallcross
|> -- Settmour Swamp, EK davids at bellcore.com
I've seen one played live, and in period illustrations. You pump the bellows
on the side of the organ with one hand, and you play the keyboard with the
other. I seem to recall it being a fairly short keyboard, so you might not
be able to play it well with two hands even if you had someone else to work the
bellows. Of course, there may be regals of various sizes.
The sound of the regals I've heard, live and recorded, is rather different
from that of an accordion. Although they both use reeds, I think the regal
has pipes like a convensional organ as well. Whether a modern reconstructed
regal sounds like a real period regal is a whole 'nuther question however.
Cheers, Rick C./Balderik
From: mjc at telerama.lm.com (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carosos and Lutes
Date: 8 Sep 1995 01:06:10 -0400
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA
>The lute is not generally a chording
>instrument. While, it can play chords when necessary, lutenists
>generally play quite polyphonically or horizantally. [...]
>The cittern, on the other hand (a flat backed, tear dropped shaped
>instrument ... similar to today's flat backed mandolin, only bigger), was
>played chordally for the most part, and is known throughout the 16th,
>17th and early 18th centuries to have hung upon the walls of barbershops
While lutes were often played very horizontally, they were also played
chordally at times. These chords were plucked, however, *not* strummed
(to the best of our ability to tell, based on things like lute manuals).
There are lute pieces from the 16th century in both England and Italy
(unsure about elsewhere) that are basically melodies with some chordal
supplements. Sometimes these melodies are embellished, and often there
is full-blown counterpoint going on, but not always. (A frequently-
recorded example of the sort of piece I'm referring to is "Wilson's Wilde",
1602 English.)
When I refer to chords, by the way, I do not mean the modern folksong
3-chord sequence, and I do not mean strummed chords. (If you have
evidence for strummed citterns within our period, I'd very much like
to see a pointer.)
Ellisif
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/mjc/www/ellisif.html
From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carosos and Lutes
Date: 8 Sep 1995 19:01:29 -0400
Organization: Panix
FWIW, before the sixteenth century, the lute was played as a melody
instrument; it played, say, one line of a chanson or the discantus of a
basse danse.
As for how common lutes would have been, to the best of my recollection
(I don't have the books in front of me) lutes, like viols, were
recreational instruments of the gently-bred of the day. Consequently,
they would have been fairly common in the homes of the nobility, and
*certainly* more common than, say, krummhorns (to use an example much
lusted after by many in the recorder-playing fraternity). Definitely
more common than they are now, which may render the point moot to many of
the folks playing dance music. However, if you've got one, use it! The
Society needs more string players!
D.Peters
journeyman viol player and lute afficionado
From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carosos and Lutes
Date: 9 Sep 1995 03:44:44 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Cori Stewart <coristew at uoguelph.ca> wrote:
>Fairly wide, m'lord if you think that lutenists were commonplace
>musicians as guitarists are today. The lute is not generally a chording
Robinson's manual for lute playing (1595?) makes it clear that young
ladies learned to play the lute as a courting instrument - the
dialog includes the father of the student, who is complaining that
his daughters stop playing the lute the moment that they are married.
In this case it would be quite likely that someone in a small group
of young people would be able to sight-read Caroso.
--
Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office,
Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h)
mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medievel Guitar
Date: 4 Dec 1995 21:09:10 -0500
Organization: Panix
Mage Steve <magesteve at aol.com> wrote:
> I have heard of Vihuela, and seen one (or atleast what the merchent
>claimed was one) at Pensic. I have also seen several other 6-string
>Guitar like instruments. I was not sure which one was the more comon or
>authentic. Do you by chance know anything about the music, or how it was
>played, for a Vihuela? Are the same chords as a modern guitar used? What
>type of strumming or picking is done? This is the type of info I need to
>find.
First: *Generally*, buying musical instruments at Pennsic (or any other
SCA event) is not a good idea. Even if the instrument and its maker
check out, there's always the mercurial Pennsic weather to contend
with.
A vihuela looks like a guitar and is tuned like a lute; the playing style
is superficially similar (but not identical) to fingerstyle guitar; a
lute teacher could help you with the technique.
Once again, Christopher Wilson and Frank Wallace have both made
recordings of sixteenth century Spanish vihuela music. You might want to
give them a listen before instrument-shopping.
Caveat emptor,
D.Peters
From: UDSD007 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Instruments, Sellers?
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:42
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
'Beckett' Matt Boris <mkpb at u.washington.edu> writes:
> Can anybody refer me to a company which sells medieval
>instruments, I already know of Lark in the Morning, but do any of the
>other reputable companies put out catalogues/have websites or ftp sites?
>thanks
The Boulder Early Music Shop, in Boulder, CO,
has phone (800) 499-1301. It is run by good people, and I enjoy
dealing with them.
The Boston Early Music Shop, in Brookline, MA, is also good to
deal with. I don't have their phone number, but Directory Assistance
will.
(Posted, rather than Emailed, as this is a {relatively} FAQ)
--
udsd007 at dsibm.okladot.state.ok.us
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra
From: jartificer at aol.com (Jartificer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Instruments, Sellers?
Date: 19 Jan 1996 06:28:13 -0500
Rocky Mountain Music makes and sells lutes and the like. They are in the
Pittsburgh PA area, and they even show up a Pennsic
From: ercil at astrid.upland.ca.us (Ercil C. Howard-Wroth)
Subject: Re: Medieval Instruments, Sellers?
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 23 Jan 96 12:41:53 PST
Jartificer (jartificer at aol.com) wrote:
: Rocky Mountain Music makes and sells lutes and the like. They are in the
: Pittsburgh PA area, and they even show up a Pennsic
Their instruments are also carried by Phyllis Wroth located in
Pueblo CO - Merchant and SCA person
The Honorable Lady Phyllis Meistersohn, Meistersohn's Music
and she along with all of her instruments
Harps, dulcimers, lutes, psaltrys, more instruments, tons of sheet music
for beginner to advanced, along with sca stuff (feast gear etc)
will be merchanting at ESTRELLA.
A comment on Rocky Mountain Music instruments:
They have a range of costs for their instruments often depending upon the
ornateness, wood used etc. Generally they are less expensive than some,
they do time payments, They are good quality. Lady Phyllis is a musician
herself and won't sell instruments she doesn't like.
We have the first lute they ever made (their prototype) which has held its tone
and excellent quality for years now. We also have one of their dulcimers and
a humle. The dulcimer was approx $60 seven years ago. It is a great instrument
and very competitively priced.
But don't take my word for it... Go and play at Estrella.
Astridhr
To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: zarazena at io.com (Vicki Marsh)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 09:41:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: British Wheels
Robert Fitzmorgan of Northkeep asked:
> I found the following quote while reading "Santiago De Compostela
>In the Age of the Great Pilgrimages" by Marilyn Stokstad. The quote is
>from a sermon by Pope Calixtus in the 12th Century describing the sights
>that could be seen at the Cathedral of Santiago.
>... Some play citherns, others lyres, others dulcimers, others flutes,
>recorders, trumpets, harps, viols, British or Welsh wheels; some sing
>with cithirns; others sing accompanied by various instruments; ....
>
> Can anyone tell me what British or Welsh wheels are?
From what I can find, it sounds like it is refering to an instrument best
known as a hurdy-gurdy, which is played by the turning of a crank which
turns a rosined wheel over one or more strings.
The earliest version, called a symphony or an organistrum was used in
medieval churches from the tenth century, with Odo of Cluny (c. 875-942)
writing a treatise on its construction. The organistrum was huge - 5 to 8
feet long and required two people to play it. One to turn the crank and the
other to operate the pitch rods.
It became smaller in size, and was later called a "viele `a roue" or viele
with a wheel. This was played by one person and was much more portable.
There is a painting by Georges de La Tour (1593-1652) called "Le Jouer do
viele" - The viele player, which shows an Elizabethen gentleman playing a
hurdy-gurdy.
As you have refered to a source from Spain in the 12th century, I would
recommend you look to the Cantigas de Santa Maria, Escorial J.b.2, a
manuscript of poems dating from C. 1270 by King Alfonso X of Spain. This
has forty miniatures, most of them showing musical instruments of both
Muslim and European origin.
For further reading , I suggest THE WORLD OF MEDIEVAL & RENAISSAINCE MUSICAL
INSTRUMENTS,Jeremy Montagu, David & Charles Publishers, Devon,ISBN
0-7153-7280-7.
Also, THE DEVELOPMENT OF WESTERN MUSIC, A History, K. Marie Stolba,
Wm.C.Brown Publishers, 1990, ISBN 0-697-00182-2, LOC # 88-71254
Zahra Zena
From: lindahl at rt.com (Greg Lindahl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: 30 Jan 1997 10:26:37 -0500
BrJacques <brjacques at delphi.com> wrote:
>Any hurdy-gurdy players out there?
There's a hurdy-gurdy web page at:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~darkstar/HGhome.html
It includes a list of players, a list of instruments for sale, a
discography of recordings, and so forth. The main focus of the web
page is way post-1600 folk music, but it does have some early music
information on it. No sign of a mailing list.
Gregory Blount
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: 7 Feb 1997 07:37:27 GMT
ges95kll at studserv.uni-leipzig.de of ges95kll at studserv.uni-leipzig.de
says...
>
>On 3 Feb 1997, Robin Hayes wrote:
>
>> Don't listen to those who try to tell you that early period ones are=20
>> supposed to sound like bagpipes...
>O.K., I'll bite. If they are not supposed to sound like a bordun
>instrument with a simple diatonic scale, then what are they supposed to
>sound like?
>
>Tcheuss,
Gesundheit! ;-)
Yes, the normal scale is assumed to be more or less diatonic, but if the
tangents (the things that touch the melody string to shorten it's length to
get different notes) are adjustable, you can tune it to any mode you
desire...
As for the sound...
A bowed stringed instrument.
There are many different types with different sounds in different cultures
around the world. The sound depends partly on the shape and size of the
resonator, or body of the instrument: quality and bulk of material, type
(wood bamboo etc).
But also HOW they are bowed will affect the sound. If you listen to a
beginning violinist, who may be "scraping" the bow, or using too much
pressure and unevenness, then you will appreciate that the sound can sound
like a set of bagpipes....
If the pressure of the strings (with the right type of cotton/wool wrapped
on in the proper manner) on the wheel (which is correctly cleaned, properly
resined, and properly round) is right (i.e. light), then the instrument
sounds VERY unlike a bagpipe, but rather sweet..., also depending whether
it is played as a solo melody string or with one or more drone strings
sounding... (of course, you need to ensure that the tangents touch the
string cleanly too)
Mine sounds VERY sweet, so the folkies at the folk club tell me... :-)
I won't take it to events after another instrument of mine was stolen and
damaged (Peers were involved!) at an SCA Feast.............. :-(
Robin
--
pereant omnes ignavi seque stuprent
rhayes at powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/
The Virtual Fooles Troupe: http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/vfoolshm.htm
From: Grizel <scababe at dnaco.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 02:24:57 +0000
Organization: The Dayton Network Access Company (DNACo)
I was at The metropolitan museum of art (or was it the Chicago
Museum???) this summer and i saw there a 14th century painting of one of
the events of christ or somsuch, and there were tons of Angels. ONE
angel even had a Hurdy Gurdy, that looked identical to the ones you see
now. We were shocked. hope it helps, I have been to a few museums this
year they tend to blend together after awhile.
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: 10 Feb 1997 14:09:36 GMT
>What exactly is a "the chien"? How would I recognize one on the
instrument?
It is the French word for "the dog" probably because it "barks" :-) -it is
the special deliately balanced loose bridge that rattles or buzzes. It is
also part of the construction of the "trompette" string. It is interesting
that the sound produced by this construction is similar to the "Trombona
Marina" (spelling?) - a stringed instrument with a loose bridge.
Not usually found on early simple instruments, but then with apparently a
complete lack of reliable documentation of the internals of the early ones,
who knows? Lack of a dog is part of the reason why mine sounds so sweet, I
suppose, but the dog can always be disconnected easily enough.
As for the sound the dog makes, I can (with a little effort) reproduce it
on my instrument. It has only a small (palm size diameter) wheel. By
fiddling with the amount of resin on the wheel, the height of the string
above the wheel, the thickness and type of cotton &/or wool wound on, and
the way you manipulate the wheel, at times, you can't STOP it barking...,
but I can see why it would quickly have been added, to add some colour to
the sound to a world which had other soft sounding buzzy type woodwinds and
(NOT SCOTTISH WARPIPES!!!) bagpipes. Also if the wheel gets a flat spot,
that will aggravate the bark more.
And once I have set up the instrument that way, it becomes extremely
difficult to get the sweet sound. I could be uncharitable and easily
believe that the reason for the belief about the sound is lack of skill on
the player's part... :-)
With the later instruments, they usually have a MUCH larger wheel (3 or 4
times), and the tendency to bark is reduced, so the dog is mecessary to
produce the sound easier. Also the dog restricts the "bark" to just the one
(drone) string. Also the bark is usually intended to sound only at the
point where one "jerks" the wheel slightly in the circle to accent the
beat. On my early style one, once it starts, it affects the drone string as
well, and doesn't always want to die away too quickly.
>Are there recordings of what this feature sounds like? I am very interested
>in period instruments, and since this is supposed to be a period feature,
>I'd be interested in hearing it.
Perhaps someone else can help here at the moment. I have packed away my
records. There was a good double LP set issued many years ago with samples
of nearly every type of Early instrument. If I find it, perhaps we can
track down if it has been issued on CD. Come to think of it, I might have
it on CD somewhere...
>I've visited the Hackmann's website
>and there's lots of recordings, but it's mostly of traditional French
>music, rather than early music.
And you will find that much of it is actually for the later style
instrument with the dog. But careful selection will turn up really old
style tunes, which can be recognised by their simple, usually modal and
also basically diatonic note patterns.
(Sorry, music IS a highly technical subject, and some of the jargon is used
to try to describe rather complex happenings... You just have to try to
learn SOME of it... that's what refernce libraries sre for...)
>I've heard gurdies as accopaniment to other instruments and voices,
>and it doesn't sound like much of a bagpipe. I guess some people heard
>the drone strings and bagpipes are the only thing familiar to compare it
>to, so they say it sounds like a bagpipe. To me the sound more closely
>resembles a Turkish lyra,
A well reasoned explanation. Also nowadays, one can "bug" it with a contact
mike, and amplify the hell out of it getting almost any sound you want...
>but even there you have the percussive sounds
>produced by the wheel and the key stops on the gurdy, which you don't
>get with the lyra.
The wheel percussive stuff doesn't really apply to the early type without
the dog. It is basically a smooth sounding violin/viele/viol type sound.
Almost flutelike, if you set it up right.
And while miking it, depends where you pick it up, I have muffled the
clatter of the tangent keys by careful placement of the "bug".
>Do you play your instrument frequently?
Not as much as I would like recently, having had a painful medical
condition affecting the arms and shoulders... :-( Also I was told that
people in the SCA just weren't interested in my music anyway...
>How much time/energy/long do you spend taking care
>of & maintaining a functioning instrument?
When I first got it, it sounded like a cheap set of bagpipes. When I first
set it up, it took me about 40 hours to fiddle with it. The maker then
replaced the wheel as it was wearing flat. Once set up, it stays in tune
(weather affects the gut strings tho...). The cotton &/or wool on the
strings needs to be replaced fairly regularly, some claim every 5-10 hours
of playing, but I get considerably longer, cause I have discovered a few
secrets... ;-)
It's better than a set of Scottish bagpipe reeds though - the real reason
that the Scottish pipes often sound so bad, is that the piper has to spend
time "blowing in" the reeds to get them to stay in tune, ... untill they go
OUT of tune... :-)
>I've seen plenty but I've never
>gotten close to one, and am still not sure what skills are involved. Is
>it considered a string instrument, or a keyboard?
It's not really a keyboard, but is most probably considered a precursor of
one. The real skill lies in manipulating the wheel.
I call it (in definite disagreement with many learned scholars - who
possibly haven't played one much or been brought up with bowed stringed
instruments in the family!) :::
"A Bowed Stringed Instrument."
There is something called a Nykleharpa (spelling?) which is sort of a
Swedish thingie that works a bit like it. Lark in the Morning also sell
another medieval style of instrument that has a wheel and a banjo style
fretboard...
>I can pick out a tune
>on a piano pretty good and have some fairly basic music theory (most of it
>post 1600, but some pre-1600). I've studied early music at different periods
>of my life, though this is something I've wanted to do for awhile
>I've been out of the loop for a few years and fear the necessary skills may
>be lacking.
Depends on you. Most people who I have showed how to play it, pick up the
basics enough to get a tune quickly. But then the violin is an easy
instrument to play, but a difficult one to play well too... :-)
>I realize I'm coming at you with a lot...but...I'd love to hear back from
>you on any or all of these questions, or with anything I might be missing.
Ask away. There are a few books and methods on the construction and
learning, but they are mostly on the later ones with dogs, and the style of
playing IS really rather different. Most of that stuff is irrelevant for
the early type.
I hope to get a sound sample up on my web page in the future... (Oh No!
What have I promised to do now?!!!!) :-)
But then I am also waiting for my maker to finish the later period style
instrument... :-)
Robin
--
pereant omnes ignavi seque stuprent
rhayes at powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/
The Virtual Fooles Troupe: http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/vfoolshm.htm
From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: 10 Feb 1997 23:34:43 GMT
Organization: Net Access - Philadelphia's Original ISP
On 10 Feb 1997 14:09:36 GMT, Robin Hayes <rhayes at powerup.com.au> wrote:
>Perhaps someone else can help here at the moment. I have packed away my
>records. There was a good double LP set issued many years ago with samples
>of nearly every type of Early instrument. If I find it, perhaps we can
>track down if it has been issued on CD. Come to think of it, I might have
>it on CD somewhere...
I have one, which is at home -- forgive me if I don't have the
title exact. It is _Instruments of the Middle Ages and
Renaissance_, by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of
London. Two LP's, with a large-format paperbound book written
by Munrow. Wonderful stuff.
E-mail me if you need further information on it.
I don't think it's in print -- I recent checked an electronic
catalogue at a local record store, when I found a Munrow/Early
Music Consort CD I hadn't heard of: it's music from the time of
the Crusades. It wasn't in the catalogue, either, so I grabbed
it. Yum!
, ,
Arpad,
slowly expanding his collection of Munrow's albums
--- , , ,
Dave Szent-Gyorgyi Kolozsvari Arpad
davesg at netaxs.com Bhakail & Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA
From: UDSD007 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:48
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi) writes:
>I have one, which is at home -- forgive me if I don't have the
>title exact. It is _Instruments of the Middle Ages and
>Renaissance_, by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of
>London. Two LP's, with a large-format paperbound book written
>by Munrow. Wonderful stuff.
Enthusiastic agreement. The records are an exposition of
instruments, generally one type per track, including the
commonplace and the exceeding uncommon (a bark trumpet!).
The music is well chosen and beautifully performed. Well worth
buying if you can find it, but it is definitely ouf of print
now.
>E-mail me if you need further information on it.
Or me.
--
Mike.Andrews at dsibm.okladot.state.ok.us
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra
From: sscroggi at uoguelph.ca (Sarah E Scroggie)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA Trombone Players!
Date: 7 Feb 1997 23:30:19 GMT
Organization: University of Guelph
Please see the article called: Crumhorn and Sackbut Players ... as
Sackbut is the early english word for Trombone if yuh didnt know :)
-Robyn Whystler
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Trombone Players!
Date: 9 Feb 1997 08:34:31 GMT
Sarah E Scroggie of sscroggi at uoguelph.ca says...
>
>Please see the article called: Crumhorn and Sackbut Players ... as
>Sackbut is the early english word for Trombone if yuh didnt know :)
>
>-Robyn Whystler
I seem to remember that the early Sackbutt moved the mouthpiece in an out,
whereas the modern trombone moves a different part of the instrument, but
my reference books are not to hanmd at the moment...
Robin (not a whistler)... ;-)
--
pereant omnes ignavi seque stuprent
rhayes at powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/
The Virtual Fooles Troupe: http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/vfoolshm.htm
From: UDSD007 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Trombone Players!
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:52
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes) writes:
>I seem to remember that the early Sackbutt moved the mouthpiece in an out,
>whereas the modern trombone moves a different part of the instrument, but
>my reference books are not to hanmd at the moment...
Actually, the instrument you're describing is a Slide Trumpet.
It has two major disadvantages; one is that the range of movement
of the sliding segment makes playing inconvenient, and the other
is that doing a fast run up the scale can knock your front teeth
out if you're not _very_ careful.
The (reproduction) sackbuts I've handled have been very much
like modern trombones in bore (.500 inches), but had narrower
conical bells where trombones had wide exponential bells. I
am given to understand that period sackbuts had narrower
bores, but have never seen any specifics.
--
Mike.Andrews at dsibm.okladot.state.ok.us
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra
From: sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Trombone Players!
Date: 11 Feb 1997 16:43:30 GMT
Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY
Sarah E Scroggie of sscroggi at uoguelph.ca says...
>>Please see the article called: Crumhorn and Sackbut Players ... as
>>Sackbut is the early english word for Trombone if yuh didnt know :)
>>
>>-Robyn Whystler
Robin Hayes <rhayes at powerup.com.au> replied:
>I seem to remember that the early Sackbutt moved the mouthpiece in an out,
>whereas the modern trombone moves a different part of the instrument, but
>my reference books are not to hanmd at the moment...
I can't imagine playing an instrument in which the mouthpiece moves
significantly; the human head and neck are just nowhere near as agile as
the human hand. And the sackbuts I've seen look a lot like a modern
trombone, in that one hand slides a slide in and out to control tone,
the mouthpiece and bell remaining fixed. There are several significant
differences: the bell is shorter and less flared, the bore is narrower,
and there are fewer cross-braces (which affects resonance as well as
mechanical strength). Perhaps what Robin is thinking of is a kind of
medieval slide trumpet in which, although the mouthpiece stays put, the
bell moves in and out with the slide.
mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
--
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University
From: darkstar at u.washington.edu (Alden Hackmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: 16 Feb 1997 08:24:19 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes) writes:
(Someone wrote:)
>>What exactly is a "the chien"? How would I recognize one on the
>instrument?
>It is the French word for "the dog" probably because it "barks" :-) - it is
>the special deliately balanced loose bridge that rattles or buzzes. It is
>also part of the construction of the "trompette" string. It is interesting
>that the sound produced by this construction is similar to the "Trombona
>Marina" (spelling?) - a stringed instrument with a loose bridge.
Many modern scholars theorize that the chien was borrowed from the tromba
marina in about the 14th or 15th century. Some of the earliest real
evidence we have for the chien being used is in Hieronymous Bosch's
"Garden of Earthly Delights" (see detail of the painting on the
Hurdy-gurdy web site).
>>Are there recordings of what this feature sounds like? I am very
>interested
>>in period instruments, and since this is supposed to be a period feature,
>>I'd be interested in hearing it.
>Perhaps someone else can help here at the moment. I have packed away my
>records. There was a good double LP set issued many years ago with samples
>of nearly every type of Early instrument. If I find it, perhaps we can
>track down if it has been issued on CD. Come to think of it, I might have
>it on CD somewhere...
A nice place to start is the Mandel Quartet recordings: Mandel has
excellent dog technique, and plays a good deal of period music.
>>I've visited the Hackmann's website
>>and there's lots of recordings, but it's mostly of traditional French
>>music, rather than early music.
I hope that I have listed all the early music out there that has
hurdy-gurdy. You just have to page through a bit of French to find it...
If you know of something that isn't on the discography, please tell me!
>And you will find that much of it is actually for the later style
>instrument with the dog. But careful selection will turn up really old
>style tunes, which can be recognised by their simple, usually modal and
>also basically diatonic note patterns.
Again, Mandel is the place to start. Don't be put off by the 19th century
instrument on the cover!
>>How much time/energy/long do you spend taking care
>>of & maintaining a functioning instrument?
>When I first got it, it sounded like a cheap set of bagpipes. When I first
>set it up, it took me about 40 hours to fiddle with it. The maker then
>replaced the wheel as it was wearing flat. Once set up, it stays in tune
>(weather affects the gut strings tho...). The cotton &/or wool on the
>strings needs to be replaced fairly regularly, some claim every 5-10 hours
>of playing, but I get considerably longer, cause I have discovered a few
>secrets... ;-)
They are somewhat maintenance-intensive, but not too bad once they're set
up.
For further questions, please email me if you like...
Alden and Cali Hackmann
Olympic Musical Instruments - makers of fine hurdy-gurdies
PO Box 166, Indianola WA 98342, 360-297-7234
darkstar at u.washington.edu, hurdy at silverlink.net
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~darkstar/HGhome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
--
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar at u.washington.edu
Web: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~darkstar/
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
From: darkstar at u.washington.edu (Alden Hackmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hurdy Gurdy - Seeking info
Date: 16 Feb 1997 08:34:24 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi) writes:
>On 10 Feb 1997 14:09:36 GMT, Robin Hayes <rhayes at powerup.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>Perhaps someone else can help here at the moment. I have packed away my
>>records. There was a good double LP set issued many years ago with samples
>>of nearly every type of Early instrument. If I find it, perhaps we can
>>track down if it has been issued on CD. Come to think of it, I might have
>>it on CD somewhere...
>I have one, which is at home -- forgive me if I don't have the
>title exact. It is _Instruments of the Middle Ages and
>Renaissance_, by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of
>London. Two LP's, with a large-format paperbound book written
>by Munrow. Wonderful stuff.
My Lord Arpad, and all good gentles who have been following this thread:
I agree that Munrow was an unparalleled scholar and musician, and this
boxed set of LP's has a beautiful 100-page book with it, and some of the
recordings are very nice. I regret to report that the hurdy-gurdy music
provided on the LP is probably one of the worst recordings of the
instrument in existance. Hogwood's playing is scratchy, out of tune,
and ill-adjusted. If the photo in the book is Hogwood, he's holding
the instrument poorly. (The right wrist should be straight, with the
thumb in line with the forearm.)
For better recordings, check the discography of the hurdy-gurdy Web page:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~darkstar/HGhome.html
Alden and Cali Hackmann
Olympic Musical Instruments - makers of fine hurdy-gurdies
PO Box 166, Indianola WA 98342, 360-297-7234
darkstar at u.washington.edu, hurdy at silverlink.net
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~darkstar/HGhome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:29:14 -0400
From: "Colin Bulla" <gawain at technobytes.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: How early are lute-like instruments?
Dear Eowyn Amberdrake,
you pose the question:
>So, the question is, Is the lute or an instrument that looks something
like a lute
contemporaneous with the Romanesque period? <
It is my understanding from the small bits of research I have done as well
as talking with professional musicians and instrument makers that there is
infact a predecessor to the Lute of which you mention. The lute as we know
it with frets was not around until the renessiance period. It's predecessor
was an instrument from the middle east that was brought back by crusaders
known as an Oud (said "oood" ;-).
It has a narrower neck, and in some cases a larger body, yet the
construction is the similar with the ribbed body. There are examples of
this instrument on the Mid-East Mfg. web site, mid-east.com, one being
highly elaborate, the other a plain student model. I also have a scan of a
pic from an old illumination that I stole.. umm snagged from a web site
someplace. Hope this helps.
Gawain de Barri
Shire of Glymmerholde, Trimaris
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:07:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Greg Lindahl" <lindahl at pbm.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Early Period Musicians/Sutton Hoo
> Also, the gentle who created the harp (Master Brendan for those in
> Calontir) mentioned someone who possibly _records_ Anglo-Saxon stuff
> accompanied by one of these. Anyone got any ideas on this one? Or
> (Gregory?) any other places on the net I should look or ask?
Here's an article about an early Lyre:
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~priestdo/lyre.html
Which has a bibliography which might lead you to similar information
about Saxon harps. It looks like a highly speculative field to play
in, because there simply isn't that much known -- a few finds of
instruments, a few paintings, no music, but an occasional discription
of tuning. This webpage refers to a period description for lyre tuning
for a 6-string lyre which is not pentatonic, it's simply the first 6
notes of our major scale. Which isn't that much of a surprise; early
chant is based on hexachords, and the first 6 notes of the major scale
form a hexachord which was used in chant.
> Maerwynn of Holme, a French horn player (with an Anglo-Saxon persona)
> who's desperately searching for a _Medieval_ instrument she can play! :)
Sackbutts and cornetti are too late for you? Straight trumpets are
expensive, I'm finding out.
-- gb
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:31:11 -0400
From: "Colin Bulla" <gawain at technobytes.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: How early are lute-like instruments?
The Oud is an interesting instrument. In the 5 months that I have been
playing around with it I find it similar to a mix of my cello for tuning
(with the pegs) and a 11 string guitar. 5 tuned with drones like a 12
string guitar (different keys for arabic or turkish), one that is tuned to
the key you are paying in and does not have a drone. I have been playing it
strummed, but have experimented with metal banjo finger picks as well. It's
very difficult with the banjo pics vs. strumming ;o). From what I have
seen with lute players it's a preference to strum since I have not seen it
played any other way. Consultation of my "Oud for Idiots" instruction book
also does not mention any other style. Although it mentions that using it
as a weapon is not recommended due to the instruments fagility.
Gawain de Barri
Shire of Glymmerholde, Trimaris
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:32:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carol at Small Churl Books <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Sackbut
Don't know it this will help, but here is a title of an OOP book:
Renaissance Sackbut and its Use Today, by Fischer. Sorry, I don't keep more
info in my titles archive.
As I recall from this book, it turned into the trombone.
Lady Carllein
From: timbeck at ix.netcom.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: kazoo!
>Anyway, my question is this: is there anything kazoo-like that is period?
>What is there in the way of stupid instruments that are relatively easy to
>play?
>
>-Henry (Look out! He's got a kazoo!) Best
Well there were apparently more than a few silly/simple instruments
in period. Can't seem to find the sources right now. But, they did, of
course, have whistles, and rattles and great big "rattle" things like
the metal new year's noise-makers that I used to spin as a child and drive
my parents nuts, except BIGGER and made of wood! (sorry for the weak
discription). Also a lot of goofy horns. But the weirdest one I have
heard of was the rommel pot. This was a pot with a skin stretched over
the opening with a small slit in the skin in which a reed was inserted.
The reed was drawn back and forth in the slit to make the skin vibrate.
If I am not mistaken it was essentially the same thing as kids playing
with their staws in the lids of soda cups at McDonald's. The pitch would
vary according to the size of the pot but it would basicly make a errrrt
errrrrrt noise. Irritating as hell, maybe good in page school, music to
the medieval ear.
Timothy
Subject: Belated reply
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 14:12:47 -0700
From: Dwight Hall <dwihall at ix.netcom.com>
To: stefan at texas.net
Stefan:
Yes, originally trumpets were only about 4 feet long and straight.
However, it had long been realized that one must get two octaves up in
the harmonic series before the notes are pretty close togetehr and
therefore more useful. On a short trumpet, this is too high for the
average human lip. A trumpet twice as long brought the close notes
"clarino range" down to a playable octave, but had to wait on
metallurgical progress. For some centuries, the two sizes coexisted.
Clarino players were highly paid members of a royal or noble staff.
Commoners were not allowed to own trumpets, only trombones. Some
medieval tapestries or paintings show both sizes, and some even show the
double-length instrument bent not into an elongated coil, but S-shaped,
which would be incredibly awkward!
A Turkish crescent is a percussion instrument in the form of an
elaborate hardwood staff, perhaps 6 feet high, trimmed in brass, capped
by a crescent moon and a conical "hat", adorned with horse tails and
dozens of jangles and small bells. It can be struck on the ground or
shaken, and was an important part of Turkish "janissary" music, first
known in Europe in the 16th century but relatively unimportant until the
late 18th - early 19th when Mozart, Beethoven, Berlioz, and others used
it along with the other "Turkish" instruments: kettle drums, cymbals,
and bass drum, in military marches. It sounds about like six
tambourines.
Its importance went far beyond a simple musical instrument, however, as
it had a somewhat mystical significance as the symbol of the office of
the vizier. I suspect it is tied up with the Wizard's staff, the staff
of Aesculapius, perhaps even the caudeceus of Hermes. And certainly the
modern drum major's mace.
The originals were one solid piece, but mine breaks down to fit a
suitcase for transport: perhaps the world's only "modular" Turkish
crescent! Not exactly period for most of SCA, but a good rattle sound to
accompany dance music at our recent Dance Collegium. And it did start a
few conversations.
I haven't found a picture on the net, but any large book of historical
musical instruments will have a picture.
Dwight
Subject: RE: Early instruments and music
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:34:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mike Dullaghan <michael.f.dullaghan at adn.alcatel.com>
Organization: Alcatel Data Networks
To: DC <uboru at pop.erols.com>
CC: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
On 12-May-98 Brigantia wrote:
>Does anyone have either a web page or contact for a company in North
>Carolina called Kelishek's music (this spelling is probably incorrect)? I'd
>love to get their catalogs for music.
And you were close, its "Kelischek".
If you really want to hurt your wallet, here are a few other links to try.
Boulder Early Music Shop On-Line
http://www.bems.com/index.html
Lark In The Morning
http://www.mhs.mendocino.k12.ca.us/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/larkhp.html
Luthier's Mercantile International
von Huene Workshop, Inc.
http://world.std.com/~vonhuene/
ANTIQUE SOUND WORKSHOP HOME PAGE
http://www.capecod.net/aswltd/
Collins and Williams Historic Woodwinds</A>
http://www.windworld.com/gallery/collins/
THE EARLY MUSIC SHOP
Ancestral Instruments - David Marshall
========================================================================
Michael the Eclectic, House Falconguard, Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia.
Vert, on an inverted chevron or, a reremouse(bat) displayed sable.
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:29:40 -0500
From: Justin Townsend <justin at tchq.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Gemshorns/recorders etc
>> I am trying to get information regarding Gemshorns, does anyone out there
>> know how to make them, or anything about them at all ? Beyond they are a
>> closed system, made of cows horn and have an octave and a half.
>
>I've played a set made by the Kelischek Music Workshop, out of
>plastic. Nifty instruments. A good place to look up this sort of stuff
>is the New Grove Dictionary of Music. Kelischek is on the web
>at www.susato.com.
>
>-- gb
If your willing to shell out the big bucks, Lark in the Morning (www.larkinam.com ) has ones for $200-$400.
Incidentally you can see and hear some at :
http://www.district125.k12.il.us/Renaissance/Town/Music/Gemshorn.html
and
http://www.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us/antiqua/gemshorn.htm
(the latter has many pictures and sound of other Period woodwinds)
-Kol Idonhavvalasnam
mka Justin Townsend
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 06:59:40 -0600
From: Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: to any hammered dulcimer players on the list
Kimberly A. Morrow wrote:
> I began learning the hammered dulcimer three months ago and I absolutely
> love it... My question to you is this: What are some period-era pieces that
> have been adapted for hammered dulcimer? Are any of these pieces
> available in a recorded format and, if so, what is the title and artist?
>
> I'd also enjoy hearing from hammered dulcimer players in the known world
> and I'd be interested to learn how their knowledge of the hammered
> dulcimer fits into the structure of the SCA. Is the hammered dulcimer even
> a period instrument?
>
> Hannah
............
Greetings Hannah!
I have not been keeping track of your persona, but there is a great book
and tape by Karen Ashbrook called "Playing the Hammered Dulcimer in the
Irish Tradition".
>From the research I have done I have found that the hammered dulcimer
has gone through many changes, since the psalter and similar instruments
in the Middle Ages, to come to it's current form. However, in Ireland
there was a similar instrument called a teadchlar (pronounced something
like "check' klar") that was extremely popular in the 17th century.
Similar instruments have been found in Irish written documentation clear
back to the Golden Age of the 5th century. From my meagre research I
have found most of these instruments to have been plucked before the
teadchlar.
There is also a good list for hammered dulcimer players....
Hammered Dulcimer List <hammerd at mcs.com>
Mo cheol thu! (My music to you!)
Mistress Lughbec
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:15:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Greg Lindahl" <lindahl at pbm.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: to any hammered dulcimer players on the list
> My question to you is this: What are some period-era pieces that
> have been adapted for hammered dulcimer? Are any of these pieces
> availablein a recorded format and, if so, what is the title and artist?
We just discussed this on the minstrel list; perhaps you might look
through its archives.
I personally like the music printed in McGee's _Medieval Instrumental
Dances_, which is recorded on the Istampitta I and II CD's.
> Is the hammered dulcimer even a period instrument?
Yes, even in the 2 bridge form. There's a detail from a painting
from 1510 or so reprinted in the New Grove which shows a 2 bridge
dulcimer.
-- gb
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 07:16:47 +0100
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>
To: "LIST Sca Arts" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Music ?
I can't play diddly squat, but this is my favorite company for traditional instruments so the more gifted of you might like a look & please pass it on!
Mel
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:26:15 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [SCA-AS] Neatnew: Med/Ren Instruments
To: Arts and Sciences in the SCA <artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>,
EK Arts & Science list <EK_AnS at yahoogroups.com>
REviewed in Neat New This week:
Medieval and Renaissance Instruments
http://www.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us/antiqua/instrumt.html">http://www.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us/antiqua/instrumt.html
Descriptions, pictures, and brief MP3s of instruments including the
kortholt, sacbut, shawm, crumhorn, zink, etc.
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
From: mikea at mikea.ath.cx (Mike Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period pencils?
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:18:44 +0000 (UTC)
Tony <tony23 at dslextreme.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the info - I'll have to check that out. I've heard that the
> "lead" is called that because it used to be the metal at one time, I didn't
> know it was erasable in some way. BTW, any idea how it would be erased?
I'm not sure that this will work for erasing lead-point marks on
parchment, but I know that bread is recommended in some period lute
tutors for removing body oils, fingermarks, and other soil from lute
soundboards, and that it works satisfactorily, if not perfectly, on my
lute.
When a musician talks about needing some "bread", he may just mean
_bread_.
--
Mike Andrews / Michael Fenwick Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
mikea at mikea.ath.cx
Tired old music Laurel
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Interesting posts
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:53:15 GMT
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:39:56 -0700, David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
>My daughter took Dov's class on the Anglo-Saxon Lyre, is interested in
>playing one. I've checked Dov's webbed instructions and plan to make one
>for her to play.
I don't know if he covered this in his class, but there was a lyre
found in a recent excavation of a 7th century Saxon prince's grave.
The lyre is of the same style as the one found at Sutton Hoo, but its
remains were more complete.
http://www.molas.org.uk/pages/siteReports.asp?siteid=pr03&;section=preface
Brighid ni Chiarain (mka Robin Carroll-Mann)
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
From: mikea at mikea.ath.cx (Mike Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period pencils?
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:18:44 +0000 (UTC)
Tony <tony23 at dslextreme.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the info - I'll have to check that out. I've heard that the
> "lead" is called that because it used to be the metal at one time, I didn't
> know it was erasable in some way. BTW, any idea how it would be erased?
I'm not sure that this will work for erasing lead-point marks on
parchment, but I know that bread is recommended in some period lute
tutors for removing body oils, fingermarks, and other soil from lute
soundboards, and that it works satisfactorily, if not perfectly, on my
lute.
When a musician talks about needing some "bread", he may just mean
_bread_.
--
Mike Andrews / Michael Fenwick Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
mikea at mikea.ath.cx
Tired old music Laurel
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:23:02 -0700
From: Greg Lindahl <lindahl at pbm.com>
Subject: Re: [SCA-AS] Building a symphonie?
To: artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org
On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 10:38:24PM -0700, Anna Troy wrote:
<<< I was just wondering if there are any good online
sources about the symphonie. Has anyone on this list
built one? >>>
Kelischeck sells a kit. If you built one completely on your own, it
would be moderately complicated to get it in tune.
-- Gregory
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 03:05:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anna Troy <owly3 at yahoo.se>
Subject: Re: [SCA-AS] Building a symphonie?
To: Arts and Sciences in the SCA <artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>
I'm open to the idea of a kit. I can't see Kelischecks
though. http://www.susato.com/susatohurdygurdies.html
The Renaissance Workshop company
http://www.masterkit.com/rwc/products/symphony.htm
also sells plans and instructions, has anyone tried
them?
I've also found the Early Music shop
http://www.e-m-s.com/front/emsframes.html
Anna de Byxe, who just discovered that her condo has a
huge woodworking shop (set up by two elderly men) in
the old boiler room (no boiler now)and that she's
allowed to use it 8-D
To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com
Subject: hammers for dulcimers?
Posted by: "Kareina Talvi Tytär" kareina at inthe.sca.org kareinatt
Date: Mon Nov 3, 2008 9:46 pm (PST)
A friend of mine <http://medieval.instruments.googlepages.com/>; is
building me a Medieval style hammer dulcimer which should be complete
soon. In anticipation of learning to play, I found a modern hammer
dulcimer e-mail list to join, and they've been talking about the
differences between American and German hammers. Apparently there are
a variety of styles available, and in some places they are held
between the thumb and fore finger, and in others are held between the
fore and middle fingers. Until this conversation, I hadn't really
thought much about the hammers and how I will hold them when I begin
the process of learning to play. Have any of you perchance
researched the history? Do you happen to have illustrations from
Medieval documents which show what sorts of hammers were used and how
they were held?
thanks,
--Kareina, who will be looking on her own, but why duplicate work if
someone here already knows the answer?
To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [st_cecilia_academy] hammers for dulcimers?
Posted by: "Greg Lindahl" lindahl at pbm.com wumpus02
Date: Wed Nov 5, 2008 3:51 pm (PST)
> In anticipation of learning to play, I found a modern hammer
> dulcimer e-mail list to join, and they've been talking about the
> differences between American and German hammers.
Yeah, there's a whole zoo for modern hammers.
Here's a source of images of period hammer dulcimers:
http://www.new-renaissance.net/dulcimer
In general it can be difficult to tell the difference between
psaltries and dulcimers -- hammers and plectra seem to look quite
similar.
-- Gregory
From: Jeffrey Clark <jmclark85 at gmail.com>
Date: August 16, 2010 12:50:14 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Popular Songs of Ansteorra
The viola da gamba (often referred to as a "gamba", "viola", or "viol") is the sister of the guitar, cousin of the violin, incestous mother of the cello, and obscure aunt of the contrabass.
It is a bowed version of the guitar which shares the same tuning as the lute: six strings, seven frets, flat back, bent neck, sloped shoulders (giving it more round portrait than the violin). It was a popular consort instrument during the Renaissance and was a highly respected solo instrument during the 17th century among the well-to-do in England and the nobility of France.
There are two major styles of gamba playing: division viol (from Italy) and lyra-viol (from France). A division viol is a style of playing where the musician takes a melody (or a ground bass) and plays rapid ornamentatioj based off of the source material; whereas lyra-viol (lyra-way) treats the viol like a bowed guitar, complete with its own modified form of tabulature and chordal techniques.
I will have one with me at Glaslyn Artisan and I would be more than happy to show you more if you can make it out.
-A.S. Zorzi
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 23:40
To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc. <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Popular Songs of Ansteorra
What's a "gamba"?
I see a brief mention of a "Violas da Gamba" in the instruments-msg file in the Florilegium, but no description of what this instrument is, or how it differs from others. Although from this, I am assuming it is a stringed instrument.
Stefan
On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Jeffrey Clark wrote:
<<< I am hoping to introduce a unique style of gamba playing at Glaslyn next
weekend, however all of the music that I can find for the instrument is
relatively obscure to the SCA (or just post-period). Therefor, I am going to
have to intabulate something; so, I figured I would ask: what are some
popular and well-known period (or period sounding) songs in Ansteorra?
Also, if there are any vocalists who are going to be at Glaslyn next weekend
and would like an accompanist, I will have my gamba with me and can play
with you; just send me music.
-Alessandro-Sorenzo Zorzi >>>
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
<the end>