eating-plates-msg - 7/25/09
Period eating plates. Roundels.
NOTE: See also the files: p-tableware-msg, mazers-msg, utensils-msg, trenchers-msg, Trenchers-Hst-art, merch-pottery-msg, forks-msg, spoons-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast
Date: 23 Sep 1994 23:15:06 GMT
Organization: BSI
> >I want recipes to cook a medieval feast, with my kids. We have read a few
> >kids books that describe the royal banquet. They didn't have plates, they
> "They didn't have plates" is an overstatement. I believe at least the
> wealthier feasters would have trenchers ON plates. Anyway, many rich
You can find references to wooden and pewter plates in art works and old
writings. At least for the Rennaissance. Bowls were also common.
Victoria
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:53:47 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Wooden feast gear documentation
>A question has been put to me by a member of my canton, as to
>documentation for a set of wooden feast gear she would like to make -
>what it might look like (plates vs. trenchers, for instance), what kind
>of wood to use, etc. She has been having some trouble finding adequate
>resources locally.
There are some pictures in Essen und Trinken: Tafelsitten bis zum Ausgang
des Mittelalters by Guenther Schiedlausky that show round wooden plates.
These are simple rounds of wood with no rim of any kind - soupy stuff would
run off the sides. One group of plates is completely unadorned, but there is
another set that has scenes painted in the center, like sewing, harvesting,
etc. from different months of the year. There is lettering running around
the the outside the painted scene. Schiedlausky doesn't say what kind of
wood it is, but hardwood seems reasonable. Should be easy to make.
Have you looked at any Brueghel peasant paintings? He depicts feasts in
simple settings, maybe he shows some wooden tableware along with the
pottery.
Valoise
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 00:30:49 -0500
From: Dottie Elliott <difirenze at usa.net>
Subject: Re: SC - feastware question
>I just got through looking at a site that has beautiful late anglo-saxon
>reproduction pottery on it.
If this is a web site, I would love to see the address.
As someone who has been studying medieval pottery (and learning to make
pottery) for a while now I will try to answer this. First of all, our
knowledge of the middle ages is based on what archeologist have found,
and drawings, paintings and writings or the period. Its my opinon that
its impossible to tell from an illuminated manuscript or painting whether
an item is metal, pottery or wood. Plates in England aren't found until
the late fifteen hundreds and those were square and made of wood. Now,
they did have silver plates before that. It was an ostentatious show of
wealth and was used as such. Often such plates (and even the more
beautiful pottery) was displayed during feasts rather than used as
another show of wealth (you have so much you don't need to use it all).
Most of the pottery that survives from England are pots, jugs, pitchers,
pans and later cups, bowls and so on. Pottery in England in the 10th &
11th centuries was mostly rather simple (well compared to Italy). It was
crudely made and decorated possibly not all. Pottery was mostly very
functional. Cups of the time are mostly wood (bowls) or metal. Things got
better as time went on. I have read that the pottery industry in England
collapsed when Rome withdrew and that explains why their pottery was crude
early on. Certainly, it was not nearly as finished looking nor as highly
decorated as Italy's pottery.
Also, let me say that of the cups, bowls and plates I am making, plates
are the hardest. You must be careful to leave enough clay for the bottom
to be able to use the item but if you leave too much it will warp on
drying and be too heavy. My teacher agress that they are one of the
harder items to make.
Its my personal opinion that poorer folks used simple wood bowls in their
own homes because they would have been eating bread (not using it as a
plate and throwing/giving it away). This was something they could make
themselves as well. Wood doesn't break as easily as pottery either.
Please also remember that at feasts folks shared food containers. How
many people you might share with depended on your social rank. The type
of bread and amount and type of food was dictated by this as well. The
trencher was a place to put your portion that you removed from a communal
bowl. There is a whole realm of ettiquette on how to share food (like its
bad manners to eat the trencher), share cups, etc. Its my opinion that
when serving large groups of people, bread trenchers were the only way to
give that many folks their own 'plate'.
I started learning about pottery with the single intent of making period
looking items for displaying my food in A&S contests. I was sadly
disappointed to find that for England and France, bread trenchers are
what I must use. For Italy, at least, I can do plates & bowls.
Clarissa
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:57:16 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Simple plates was Size of Trenchers
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I have to dig through my books but I am fairly certain that I have a
reference to "paper" plates (oiled parchment?) being used as an plate in
Italy in the 1400's. IIRC it was Venetian.
Does anyone else recall the reference?
Otherwise I will start digging.
Eduardo
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 09:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: avrealtor at prodigy.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I have used Bamboo veneer plates mundanely and they work out pretty well. They run about a $1 plate and are bio-degradable. Yes, I know bamboo is probably not period, but they look alot better then paper and would be less expensive then making your own probably.
A quick search found bulk suppliers.
-Muiriath
--- On Sat, 7/4/09, David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
I've been corresponding with a lady who is thinking of trying to set up a period cookshop at Pennsic next year. One issue is what tos serve the food on. Bread bowls are modern, paper plates are strikingly modern and cost something, reusable plates have to be washed and risk theft.
One obvious answer is bread trenchers--which raises the question of how big they were. The only figure I can find is from _Le Menagier_ and seems to be 4"x6", which would be awfully small for serving food on. I'm wondering if we have other sources, and if one can make a reasonable case that trenchers were sometimes substantially larger than that--large enough to serve moderns as plates.
Anyone have anything?
-- David/Cariadoc
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:07:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
An alternative to paper plates is disposable dining ware made of leaves. No, i don't mean finding them on site. They are commercially made. Probably more expensive than paper, not necessarily period for Europe (but fine for India), but less glaringly modern.
I buy them at Whole Foods and sometimes bring them to camping events to avoid a lot of washing up and because i don't want to risk breaking my irreplaceable expensive period-type Middle Eastern dinnerware (some by a Laurel in Australia, some by a Laurel from Kentucky).
When i ate at an Indian restaurant in Singapore back in the late 1970s, all diners communally sat on long benches at long tables. Someone came down the rows and slapped down a clean fresh leaf - large and long, having an area equivalent to a dinner plate, although not the shape - in front of newly arrived diners.
Then someone else came down the rows with a stainless steel "bucket" of rice, scooped out a serving and dumped it on the leaf. Then another person came by with a "bucket" of vegetarian "curry", and another with condiments.
One ate with one's hands. And when a diner was finished someone came a refuse bucket, and swept the leaf and crumbs off the table.
No washing up and all biodegradable. And not particularly Medieval European...
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:27:15 -0400
From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Simple plates was Size of Trenchers
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I have not seen this reference, but I doubt that they were using
parchment for this purpose. If the reference is to "paper" plates then
it is most likely actually paper. Paper was being manufactured in
Spain as early as 1150 and the first of the Fabriano mills were
established in Italy in 1276 with paper being recorded as being used
in the same Italian area as early as 1154. By the 1400's paper would
have been widely available and used in Italy as well as many of the
other European countries.
It was considerably less expensive to manufacture than parchment and
would have been seen as "disposable" whereas parchment was much more
highly valued for it's other uses. I would love to hear more about
this reference to paper plates - paper things are one of my "special"
interests and particularly challenging due to their very ephemeral
nature.
--
Serena da Riva
On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:57 AM, David Walddon<david at vastrepast.com> wrote:
<<< I have to dig through my books but I am fairly certain that I have a
reference to "paper" plates (oiled parchment?) being used as an plate in
Italy in the 1400's. IIRC it was Venetian.
Does anyone else recall the reference?
Otherwise I will start digging.
We are having a Scappi cooking day today so it might be tomorrow.
Eduardo >>>
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:49:55 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
There's an article about Tudor and Stuart table-settings by Peter
Brears in "The Appetite and the Eye". Data from the records of the
Pewterers' Company in 1533 suggest that pewter trenchers were about 7
or 8 inches in diameter. He mentions wooden trenchers, both square
and round, but doesn't give sizes.
Brighid ni Chiarain
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:10:24 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
IIRC, there is a painting of John of Gaunt with two square metal trenchers
joined book style on the table before him. They appear to be about 12
inches square.
A kitchen scene by Campi shows round dished plates standing in a plate rack
on the wall. They appear to be able to serve as plates or bowls and appear
to be about a foot in diameter. The color appears to be a dark blue so they
might be metal or stoneware.
Bear
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:00:55 -0400
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Trenchers, Etc. Was Size of Trenchers
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Peter Brears, in his new book "Cooking and Dining in Medieval England,
says (regarding bread trenchers) that "portions of solid foods were
placed [on them] - once they had been cut out of the joints on the
dishes - so that they could be cut into smaller pieces and lifted to the
mouth...they were not plates. Food was never piled on them, and sloppy
foods never placed on them...Their function was to preserve the
tablecloth from knife-cuts and any form of soiling, not to hold the
whole of a person's entire course before them." So, our idea of
trenchers being equal to our modern plates would seem to be erroneous.
He cites use of silver trenchers in the 1360s and wooden trenchers being
shipped in quantity in 1499 (16-25 cost a penny).
Marina (Jane Boyko) mentioned dessert trenchers (aka "roundels"). There
are some photos of some in the V&A and one at Hampton Court on my Flickr
page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8311418 at N08/sets/72157604451045938/ .
Unfortunately, the V&A ones aren't clear. Her guess of 6 inches would
seem to be accurate. I found one modern source that said they were made
of sycamore or beech and were about 5 - 5.5 inches in diameter. In 1391
the Earl of Derby had pewter "spyce-plates" which had weights from 6
ounces to 1.5 lbs.
Besides being made of wood, roundels could be made of sugar paste or
marzipan. The banquet course (dessert) "plates" came in various shapes
and could even be made of glass (which could be rented!). Some were
oval shaped, some had a handle on one side with which to hold the plate.
Here are some "poesies" that were I found in various books which were
taken from period "roundels" or dessert trenchers.
1. Be neither dumb nor give your tongue the lease, But speak thou well
or hear and hold your peace. (Elizabethan)
2. I thou be young, then marry not yet/ If thou be old thou hast more
gette/ For young men?s wives wil not be taught/ And old men?s wives be
good for naught. (16th c.)
3. Beshrew his heart that married me/ My wife and I can never agree/ A
knavish queen by this I swear/ The goodman's breeches she thinks to
wear. (16th c.)
4. The Ape would have half Leonard?s tayle/ To hide his bum naked as his
nayle/ The meaning is, such as have store/ Should be more liberal to the
poor. (early 17th c.)
5. Biblical: All they will live Godly in Christ Jhesu must suffer
persecution 2 times 3.
6. We must enter the kingdom of God through much trouble and affliction.
People ate off the plain side and then turned over the roundel to read,
sing, or perform the words on the back. Designs came from many sources.
Sometimes colored prints were cut out, glued to the back, and
varnished over.
Alys K.
--
Elise Fleming
alysk at ix.netcom.com
http://home.netcom.com/~alysk/
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:38:15 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Roundels was
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Continuing what Countess Alys has already said,
Roundels appear in a number of museum collections.
Birmingham has this set with this description
"11 sycamore roundels in a circular beech box dating from around 1550
-1600."
http://www.bmagic.org.uk/objects/1965T2441.5
scroll down to see other examples to click upon.
---------------
Searching the collection at the V&A
one finds a rather splendid set of 12
Twelve Wonders of the World
Date
1600-1630
Techniques
Sycamore, with painted decoration in white and gold on black
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/objectid/O78997
-----
St Albans
http://www.stalbansmuseums.org.uk/
http://www.stalbansmuseums.org.uk/content/view/full/15946
Searching under just "roundel" turns up more photos.
Try *http://tinyurl.com/kk2umw
------------
*What's interesting is that prints begin to appear in books in the 17th
century that might be used
for roundels and trenchers. *
"*/12 Plates for cheez trenchers"
see http://bpi1700.cch.kcl.ac.uk/printsMonths/may2008.html/
*
*As to paper being used as suggested by Eduardo
I came across this mention "I've been intrigued by the Elizabethan
roundels, thin wooden (sometimes just varnished paper) placemats. The
examples I've seen have poems or verses with an illustration. They were
typically handed out in box sets, very much like the cork placemats
elderly aunts today invariably give as wedding gifts. I like the idea of
producing a set for personal use, as well as possibly producing a set
for a feast, with the menu on one side and songs on the other. I'm still
in the experimental stage with these, looking for suitable artwork or
artwork styles. I think they'd be very handy as an encouragement to
singing for the hundreds of songs we know the chorus to but can only
stumble through the verses. (The example shown here has the verses for
/Greensleeves/." This is from an SCA member's website.
webcentre.co.nz/kk/printing.htm <http://webcentre.co.nz/kk/printing.htm>;
I'll to check some books. I think I have more references to this also.
Johnnae
<the end>