turkeys-msg - 1/16/08
The history and use of turkeys in Europe in the Rennaisance.
NOTE: See also the files: chicken-msg, peacocks-msg, duck-goose-msg, fowls-a-birds-msg, birds-recipes-msg.
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:20:16 -0600
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - RE: Turkeys
>I seem to remember other references that suggest that they were reasonably
>common domestic fowl in England post 1550. Common enough that records exist
>of them being driven to market and prices quoted. If there is enough
>interest I will research this further and find the specific references in my
>collection. Please remember that with this fowl there is some historical
>confusion with the Guinea Hen.
>Daniel Raoul
While there is some confusion with the Guinea hen in written records,
their depiction in art is not, The birds look completely different from each
other. Even in the 16th century Paduan manuscript, it is hard to deny the
characteristic red head and wattles of the American turkey from all other
European fowl. That is why it is critical in the evaluation; as a visual primary source, it is unambiguous.
What is also important is that this particular
painting is of a peasant class woman taking assorted fowl to market to
sell. This is prima facae evidence of turkeys being in common domestic
production early on. Another important point to note is that there is no
evidence concerning the use of turkey eggs that I know of in period
documents. This would be very consistant with actually hatching the
valuable eggs for meat production and more quickly spreading the poultry
breeding stock which was doubtless in heavy demand. It would have
been such with the rapid displacement of peacock, swan and crane
(according to some authors) by the turkey. This is especially true if
they were in adequate supply to provide a large number of them by 1553
for a Catherine d' Medici feast of some note. At least what I
am seeing now is consistant with this premise. I believe that
we, as an organized group of cooks, should pursue the topic of
turkeys and potatoes to the fullest and make some kind of
document of the findings for publication, perhaps TI. We, as
a group, have the advantage over independant researchers in that
we have an international base, especially those of us in Europe,
to find the documentation (or lack thereof) in many different
languages. Particularly important also is that several of you good
gentles, SCA or not, read period language doucumentaion with
some facility.
It has always been somewhat absurd to me, if early New World
foods, with the economy of turkey in particular, are so seldom seen
at feast. I for one would rather have a good slice of turkey at feast
than most of the bad chicken legs and thighs I have been served
over the years in the name of budget. Likewise, I would not mind
having a potato in lieu of some of the godawful and obscure
vegetables that some cooks have put before me in their desperation
for period veggies recipes.
Akim
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:44:18 -0500
From: Margo Farnsworth <mfarnsworth at mfgraffix.com>
Subject: SC - Turkey recipe - slightly OOP (was RE: Turkeys)
I have adapted an adaptation of a French recipe from "Le Cvisinier francois", by
Francois La Varenne (1654). I don't speak (or read) French, so I went under the
assumption that the adaptation given in the book "Savoring the Past, The French
Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789", by Barbara Ketcham Wheaton was not too far
off the mark. Here is the recipe in French (hopefully without too many typos):
Poulet d'Inde a la framboise farcy (I know that this translated is something
like Indian chicken (turkey) stuffed with raspberries)
Apres qu'il est habille levez en le brichet et tirez la chair, que vous hacherez
avec graisse, et peu de chair de veau, que vous meslerez ensemble avec des
jaunes d'oeufs et de pigeonneaux et le tout bien assaisonne, vous remplirez
vostre poulet-d'Inde, avec sel, poivre, clou battu, et capres, puis le mettez a
la broche, et le ferez tourner bien doucement, estant presque cuit tirez-le et
let mettez dans une terrine avec de bon bouillon, champignons et un bouquet.
Pour lier la sauce, prenez un peu de lard coupe, le faites passer par la poesle,
lequel estant fondu vous tirerez, et y meslerez un peu de farine, que vous
laisserez bien roussir et delayerez avec peu de bouillon et de vinaigre; la
mettez ensuite dans vostre terrine avec jus de citron, et servez; si c'est en
temps des framboises, vous y mettrez une poignee par dessus.
The recipe translation calls for removing the meat from the skeleton while
leaving the skin intact. The skeleton is also removed from the skin. Then the
forcemeat is made and put back into the skin and the whole thing is roasted on a
spit. We are planning on making this for a feast for 150 people, and could not
imagine doing that process on that scale. So, I have adapted it to a terrine.
Here is my adaptation:
Turkey terrine (serves 12, makes 2 loaves)
3 lbs. Boneless turkey
1.5 lbs. Boneless chicken (thighs are good)
.75 lbs. Boneless veal
1 lb. Bacon
4 egg yolks
2 tsp. Salt
1 tbsp. Pepper
1/4 tsp. Ground cloves
3 tbsp. Capers
2 quarts chicken stock
1.5 lbs. Mushrooms (24 oz.), sliced
2 tsp. Rosemary
1/2 tsp. Thyme
1 bay leaf
2 tbsp. Butter
1/4 c. flour
1 tbsp. Wine vinegar
1 tbsp. Lemon juice
1 pint fresh or frozen raspberries
Grind turkey, chicken, veal and 1/2 lb. of the bacon. Add egg yolks, salt,
pepper, cloves and capers and mix thoroughly. Divide between 2 loaf pans and
cover with remaining 1/2 lb. bacon. Bake at 350 for 1 hour 20 minutes.
Meanwhile, saute the mushrooms in the butter until limp. Add the flour to make
a roux. Slowly add the chicken stock, stirring constantly (I also add the
drippings from the loaf pan). Add the rosemary, thyme and bay leaf and simmer
over medium heat until it becomes a thick sauce. Remove from heat and add the
vinegar & lemon juice just before serving. Slice the terrine and place on a
platter. Spoon the sauce over and garnish with the raspberries.
We are precooking the feast, so we made this last weekend and froze it. We
ended up using canned mushrooms (I was horrified when the person who did the
shopping opted for this over fresh), but it worked out pretty well. The fresh
mushrooms made the sauce very dark, whereas the canned kept it a beautiful
creamy gold color. We also made all of the terrines on one day and drained
their juices into a large pot before freezing them. We let this juice separate
and used the fat instead of butter to make the roux. We used the broth from
this juice instead of the chicken stock, and added the canned mushrooms with
their liquid. The result was better tasting than the original adaptation.
This dish will be served as part of the feast for K&Q Bardic Championship in
Concordia of the Snows (Albany, NY) in the Kingdom of the East on March 11.
Faoiltighearna
(waiting for the bashing on it being slightly out of period and served at a SCA
feast)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:07:28 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - New World Foods-rant (was: turkey)
<<< "It has always been somewhat absurd to me, if early New World
foods, with the economy of turkey in particular, are so seldom seen
at feast."
I don't find this absurd at all. (...) the 'medieval' atmosphere that
most feasts and event settings are trying to achieve (...) item for high
ranking noblemen >>>
If you only want to have "medieval"-type recipes, it would be more
appropriate to just choose a different year for the end of the period,
say, 1480. -- I am sure it was chilling for 16th century people to get
some of the 'exotic' food stuff.
Marx Rumpolt in his German-language but international-in-spirit "New
Kochbuch" ('New cookbook', 1581) has several banquets for all kinds of
noblemen and other people like citizens and peasants. Now, what's
interesting, is, that _all_ the banquets for noblemen have at least one
dish with "Jndianischen Hanen", which was, if I am not mistaken, one of
the earlier German expressions for "turkey". -- Would some kind soul
please look at the picture provided in the Rumpolt-cookbook and comment
on the kind of bird that is depicted there? If you do not have access to
a Rumpolt copy, the picture is also at:
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/rump66p.htm
Rumpolt gives 20 recipes/ mentions 20 kinds of dishes for "Jndianische
Henn" and "Jndianischen Han" in the recipe section of his book.
The order of the banquets follows an order from the highest to the lower
noblemen (Keyser, K–nige, Churf¸rsten, Ertzhertzogen, Grafen und Herren,
Edelleut). One of the dishes for "Edelleut", the lower noblemen, is:
"EJn gebratenen Jndianischen Hanen" (p.35).
Thus, it seems to me that noblemen even of the lower ranks were eating
"Jndianischen Han" at certain events in the late 16th century. On the
other hand, there are no such dishes in the "Bancket der B¸rger", the
banquet/ menue of the citizens. ["since all members of the SCA are
considered nobility"]
Best,
Thomas
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:36 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - New World Foods-rant (was: turkey)
> Marx Rumpolt in his German-language but international-in-spirit "New
> Kochbuch" ('New cookbook', 1581) has several banquets for all kinds of
> noblemen and other people like citizens and peasants. Now, what's
> interesting, is, that _all_ the banquets for noblemen have at least one
> dish with "Jndianischen Hanen", which was, if I am not mistaken, one of
> the earlier German expressions for "turkey". -- Would some kind soul
> please look at the picture provided in the Rumpolt-cookbook and comment
> on the kind of bird that is depicted there? If you do not have access to
> a Rumpolt copy, the picture is also at:
> http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/rump66p.htm
>
> Thomas
It is definitely not Numida melegaris (guinea fowl). It looks more like
Meleagris gallopavo (North American turkey) than Agriocharis ocellata
(Central American turkey).
The problem is that Agriocharis ocellata is the turkey which was brought
back to Europe around 1523. It would be interesting to find the provenance
of the illustration.
Bear
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:11:31 EST
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #1887
Ok, how's about the idea of substituting turkey for "Bustard", it was driven
out of existence I believe. I nor anyone else I know has tasted "Bustard"
but it was purportedly an upwards of 40lbs flightless land bird. Recipes can
be found in several medieval sources such as "A Forme of Cury" 1390 (IIRC)
and others but I can't seem to find them at the moment.
According to Websters New Collegiate 1949
Bustard-avis tarda (slow bird), any of a family (Otididae) of Old World and
Australian game birds related to both cranes and plovers esp the Great
Bustard (Otis tarda) the largest European land bird.
Considering the availability of cranes and plovers, seems like it would be an
acceptable substitute.
Hauviette
The turkey is of course from a entirely different family (Meleagridae), but
hey, has anyone tasted Bustard lately?
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:48:45 -0600
From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>
Subject: SC - Turkeys in Tusser
Thomas Tusser _500 Good Points of Husbandry_ (1571)
From May's Husbandry:
Grass, thistle, and mustard-seed, hemlock and bur,
tine, mallow, and nettle, that keep such a stur;
With peacock and turkey, that nibble off top,
are very ill neighbors, to seely poor hop.
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:34:48 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - turkeys again
While reading in Food: A Culinary History, I came across the following:
" The slow rate at which American foods were generally adopted is typical
of the process of culinary change in early modern society. Yet some species
gained acceptance much more quickly than others, or more quickly in certain
regions than in others. Indeed, the turkey caught on with amazing speed.
Discovered by Cortez and his men in Mexico about 1520, the "Indian chicken"
was mentioned by Rabelais in his Gargantua (1534). And we know that
Marguerite d'Angouleme contracted with a farmer in Navarre to raise turkeys
for her table. At a banquet given by Catherine de' Medici at the bishopric
of Paris in 1549, seventy "Indian Chickens" costing 20 sols apiece and seven
"Indian roosters" costing 30 sols were served. The most surprising thing is
that these prices were already markedly below the prices for native birds
such as peacock and heron (40 sols), pheasant and bustard (70 sols), crane
(80 sols), swan (100 sols) and so on. The turkey was accepted almost from
the moment it arrived because all sorts of large birds were served on
aristocratic tables, including some that we consider inedible, such as
cormorant, stork, heron, crane, swan and peacock. Hence there was no
problem with introducing the turkey, which was large, decorative, and tasty
in the opinion of satisfied consumers both then and now.
" Similar arguments can be advanced to explain the relatively rapid
acceptance of corn by millet eaters and of string beans by those already
accustomed to the old European variety. If the pace of change in these
cases was slower that in the case of the turkey, it was not because the
common folk were less open to new foods than were members of the elite; it
may be quite simply that the sources paid less attention to what the poor
ate than to what the rich ate."
Flandrin, Jean-Louis, "Introduction: The Early Modern Period", pp. 358-359,
Food: A Culinary History.
Unfortunately, this Introduction was not foot-noted, so I don't know the
source for Catherine's banquet list. I'm curious to find out what the
original says, as the version of the list which appears in Larousse lists
"66 India hens". So question 1 is, what is the primary source of the
banquet list?
I can not find any reference to Marguerite d'Angouleme in my library, but
anyone who contracts for raising turkeys in this time frame is certainly of
interest to the culinary historian. Question 2 is, what biographical
information is there about Marguerite d'Angouleme?
I'm a little hesitant to accept Flandrin's arguments, but I would like to
verify the facts he puts forward.
Bear
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:50:05 -0400
From: "Gaylin Walli" <gwalli at infoengine.com>
Subject: SC - Marguerite d'Angouleme
Bear asked:
>Question 2 is, what biographical
>information is there about Marguerite d'Angouleme?
Well, to the best of my knowledge, she was a princess of
Navarre, so I'd say there was a hell of a lot of biographical
information available about her. MRLIAH, however. :) A
quick search of the web reveals that there are quite a few
publications out regarding her correspondence (some even
translated into English).
>I'm a little hesitant to accept Flandrin's arguments, but I would like to
>verify the facts he puts forward.
Well, now that you've piqued my interest (damn you!)
I'll have to see what my Gods and Godesses of ILL can
dig up for me.
jasmine
Iasmin de Cordoba
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - SC- Turkeys again, Again!
This is what the Oxford Companion of Food says about
turkeys:
When turkeys reached the Old World, they appear
(unlike other foods from the Americas, such as
tomatoes and potatoes) to have diffused swiftly and
been consumed enthusiastically. In England in 1541,
they were cited amongst large birds such as cranes and
swans in sumptuary laws; their prices had been fixed
in the London markets by the mid-1550s; and Tussar
(1557) spoke of feeding turkeys on runcivall pease,
and of eating them at Christmas.
Liliane Plouvier, in a learned paper (of the 1980s)
about the early history of turkeys in Europe, found
that Queen Marguerite of Navarre is recorded to have
raised turkeys at Alencon in 1534; and 66 turkeys were
served at a feast for Catherine de'Medici in 1549. In
Belgium, turkey prepared three different ways (boiled
with oysters; roast and served cold; and in a pasty)
was served in 1557 at a banquet held in Liege.
Reasons for this speedy acceptance are not hard to
find. The turkey would have been seen as similar to
the domestic poultry familiar in Europe since ancient
times, and confused with guinea-fowl; and there anyway
a firm medieval precedent for eating all sorts of
fowl, wild and tame, large and small.
[snip]
When it came to cooking turkeys, they were rapidly
assimilated into various styles of cuising
contemporary with their arrival in Europe. Plouvier,
examining early recipes, found that there were several
for turkey in Italy by 1570 (e.g. in Scappi's 'Opera
dell'arte del cucinare'); besides being spit roasted,
made into paupiettes or little poached quenelles, they
could be stuffed, stuck with cloves, encased in a
coarse crust with the head exposed, and baked.
Recipes were published in Germany by the 1580s, but
the turkey recipes only appeared in France during the
'culinary renaissance' of the 17th century, when La
Varenne gave several recipes, including one requiring
a truffle-perfumed bouillon.
In England, turkeys were being made into pies during
the reign of Elizabeth I, and soon afterwards Gervase
Markham (1615) recommended that they should be roast,
and served with a sauce of onions, flavoured with
claret, orange juice, and lemon peel.
Huette
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:27:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: SC - SC- Turkeys again, Again!
- --- "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> wrote:
> I've reviewed Tannehill, Trager, and Toussaint-Samat and while they express
> the opinion the turkey was widely adopted early, they present little proof
> for the assertion. The original documentation in this case should help
> support their assertions.
>
> Bear
According the the Oxford Companion to Food, it was
Liliane Plouvier in her paper entitled "Introduction
de la dinde en Europe", who found the documentation.
According to the bibliography, her paper was published
in Brussels circa 1980. When I get to work tomorrow,
I will look up libraries who have this paper in their
collection. Of course, you will have to be able to
read French to read it ...
Huette
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:54:42 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation
>>IIRC, Rumpolt has a woodcut of a North American turkey in the book.
That would suggest Jndianischer Han means a New World turkey rather than a